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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The persistence of kippers – looking at where post-referendum

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  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    English Local elections in May in English counties , a few Unitaries and Doncaster

    Actual ( NOT NEV ) vote shares in
    2013 ( 2014 for Doncaster )

    Con 34.5%
    Lab 21.3%
    LD 13.7%
    UKIP 20.2%
    Green 3.4%
    BNP 0.3%
    Others 6.6%

    and in 2009 ( 2008 for Durham , Northumberland and Doncaster )

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 13.5%
    LD 24.7%
    UKIP 4.6%
    Green 4.4%
    BNP 2.5%
    Others 6.8%

    Vote share in council by election results November to date ONLY in areas which have elections in May

    Con 38.7%
    Lab 18.6%
    LD 25.1%
    UKIP 7.9%
    Green 2.9%
    BNP Zero
    Others 6.8%

    These figures will slightly understate Labour and overstate Conservatives as the 6 month rule meant no by elections in Labours 3 strongest areas Durham , Northumberland and Doncaster .

    UKIP are heading to lose 80% of the 147 seats they won in 2013 . They have already lost over 20 through by election losses and defections .
    FWIW my forecast for actual vote share this May in the English elections is roughly

    Con 40
    Lab 19
    LD 23
    UKIP 8
    Green 3
    Others 7


  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,128
    edited March 2017
    malcolmg said:


    panic in CCHQ, Carlotta has the vapours, just need Scott tweet and we are complete.


    SindyRef2 nailed on then? Or is it Mrs Broon in Bute House?

    Scott_P said:


    Morning Malky.

    What excuse is Wee Nippy going to find for not calling Indyref2 this time?


    You should be entering them in the obedience competitions at Crufts, Malc.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    There are now more than 30,000 deaths per year from opiate overdoses.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    There's a poll from BMG this morning showing support for Scottish independence at 48/52%.

    No still ahead then despite SNP Brexit warnings
    The SNP made BREXIT warnings three times in their White Paper in 2014......didn't work then.....
    Indeed there was talk of little else in the pubs of Glasgow....
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image
  • Options
    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited March 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    There are now more than 30,000 deaths per year from opiate overdoses.

    Responsible for some declines in US female life expectancy I believe?

    Excellent speech by Chris Christie from a while back. Spellbinding stuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdYMx7sycW4
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,128
    isam said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I thought you voted UKIP because you wanted us to get close to a Powellite agenda where we didn't have 'wide grinning piccaninnis chasing us to the shops'?
    Just keep saying whatever makes you feel good about yourself old chap
    I do!
    Better than tablets in the long run I reckon. Take plenty of exercise in the fresh air too

    https://goo.gl/images/kncwYI
    Those were the days! Not a piccaninni in sight.
    Strange word isn't it? Enoch never used it himself of course, except when quoting others
    He was lucky falling into conversation with or receiving letters from all those anonymous folk from whom he could 'quote' without owning their terms himself.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    It says that, and that there are people who'd vote Le Pen in the 1st round and vote Macron in the 2nd!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    That is correct; an astonishing one in ten of MLP's supporters say they will only vote for her in the first round.

    I find that difficult to believe, to be honest.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    That's exactly what it says.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703

    malcolmg said:


    panic in CCHQ, Carlotta has the vapours, just need Scott tweet and we are complete.


    SindyRef2 nailed on then? Or is it Mrs Broon in Bute House?

    Scott_P said:


    Morning Malky.

    What excuse is Wee Nippy going to find for not calling Indyref2 this time?


    You should be entering them in the obedience competitions at Crufts, Malc.
    We'd lose to the Nats anyday......just not in referendums....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    English Local elections in May in English counties , a few Unitaries and Doncaster

    Actual ( NOT NEV ) vote shares in
    2013 ( 2014 for Doncaster )

    Con 34.5%
    Lab 21.3%
    LD 13.7%
    UKIP 20.2%
    Green 3.4%
    BNP 0.3%
    Others 6.6%

    and in 2009 ( 2008 for Durham , Northumberland and Doncaster )

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 13.5%
    LD 24.7%
    UKIP 4.6%
    Green 4.4%
    BNP 2.5%
    Others 6.8%

    Vote share in council by election results November to date ONLY in areas which have elections in May

    Con 38.7%
    Lab 18.6%
    LD 25.1%
    UKIP 7.9%
    Green 2.9%
    BNP Zero
    Others 6.8%

    These figures will slightly understate Labour and overstate Conservatives as the 6 month rule meant no by elections in Labours 3 strongest areas Durham , Northumberland and Doncaster .

    UKIP are heading to lose 80% of the 147 seats they won in 2013 . They have already lost over 20 through by election losses and defections .
    FWIW my forecast for actual vote share this May in the English elections is roughly

    Con 40
    Lab 19
    LD 23
    UKIP 8
    Green 3
    Others 7


    Going to be a bad night for Labour :^)
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    There are now more than 30,000 deaths per year from opiate overdoses.

    That law must be counterproductive? Shouldn't the law be for the Doctor to prescribe rehab?

    Anyways, what is striking is how this epidemic is effecting the white rural population.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited March 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    WTFF? Not doubting you, but I'd be interested to read the source of that. Astonishing fact.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Cyan said:

    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    That's exactly what it says.
    Voting Le Pen as a protest in the 1st but not actually wanting her to win I can understand, with Macron it makes less sense.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    malcolmg said:

    Ahead of Mrs McTurnip's likely announcement today of SINDYREF2 because of BREXIT, the SNP government's own White Paper on independence pointed out Scotland being removed from the EU against its wishes three times was a reason to vote for independence - and still they were turned down:

    Second, the Scotland’s Future White Paper. In November 2013, the previous First Minister and the present First Minister launched the Scotland’s Future White Paper, which was described as a ‘guide to an independent Scotland’. In that White Paper, the Scottish Government referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation opportunity’ (pages i and 556). Crucially, it also explicitly raised the prospect of a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU resulting in a vote to leave despite a majority of voters in Scotland voting to remain (pages 60, 217 and 460). In other words, although it explicitly highlighted the possibility of a majority of people in the UK as a whole voting to leave the EU while a majority of people in Scotland voted to remain, it still referred to the referendum as a ‘once in a generation’ opportunity, without any caveat or conditions with regard to future events.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/scotlandinunion/pages/559/attachments/original/1488541426/SIU_Letter_Feb_2017v4a.pdf?1488541426

    panic in CCHQ, Carlotta has the vapours, just need Scott tweet and we are complete.
    Morning Malc! :smiley:

    Are you looking forward to Nicola's moment to shine?
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    Pulpstar said:

    English Local elections in May in English counties , a few Unitaries and Doncaster

    Actual ( NOT NEV ) vote shares in
    2013 ( 2014 for Doncaster )

    Con 34.5%
    Lab 21.3%
    LD 13.7%
    UKIP 20.2%
    Green 3.4%
    BNP 0.3%
    Others 6.6%

    and in 2009 ( 2008 for Durham , Northumberland and Doncaster )

    Con 43.5%
    Lab 13.5%
    LD 24.7%
    UKIP 4.6%
    Green 4.4%
    BNP 2.5%
    Others 6.8%

    Vote share in council by election results November to date ONLY in areas which have elections in May

    Con 38.7%
    Lab 18.6%
    LD 25.1%
    UKIP 7.9%
    Green 2.9%
    BNP Zero
    Others 6.8%

    These figures will slightly understate Labour and overstate Conservatives as the 6 month rule meant no by elections in Labours 3 strongest areas Durham , Northumberland and Doncaster .

    UKIP are heading to lose 80% of the 147 seats they won in 2013 . They have already lost over 20 through by election losses and defections .
    FWIW my forecast for actual vote share this May in the English elections is roughly

    Con 40
    Lab 19
    LD 23
    UKIP 8
    Green 3
    Others 7


    Going to be a bad night for Labour :^)
    But they will spin that they have won the mayoralty elections....
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    WTFF? Not doubting you, but I'd be interested to read the source of that. Astonishing fact.
    https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/prescribing.html
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    So that's 5,000 COULD leave per year.

    The NHS employs about 1.4 million people.

    Foreign citizens employed by the NHS are by definition ALWAYS considering whether to leave.

    So its more FAKE NEWS.
    It's interesting that three-fifths have resisted all the scaremongering and aren't even considering leaving.
    And for any that do decide to leave, there will be hundreds of qualified medical professionals from the rest of the world who'd welcome the opportunity to work in the UK.
    So, we will replace EU-based medical migration with Commonwealth or wider migration. I suspect, to put it mildly, that this is not what the average Leave voter had in mind.
    I'm not sure the average Leave voter cares too much about immigration of doctors and nurses.

    The problems they have are with Romanian Big Issue sellers on benefits, of so many Polish plumbers that British plumbers can't earn a living, and of arranged marriages from Pakistan with people who don't speak English and prefer to turn certain parts of England into a mini-Lahore.

    In other words, they want control over who is allowed into their country, they want the immigration of productive people that benefits the UK and don't want immigration of those who will be a drain on society or who want to change it rather than integrate.
    If leave voters think Pakistan is part of the EU then they are certainly living up to stereotype.
    The problem they have is with the "Right to family life" rules under the Social Chapter, that means we can't deport foreign criminals and ban arranged marriages from certain countries. Out of the EU we are free to make our own rules on these things.
    No we aren't, that's part of the ECHR. Nothing to do with the EU.
    A technical distinction which is lost on most people, who hear only "European Court" or "European Judges"
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2017
    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referendum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    nunu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    There are now more than 30,000 deaths per year from opiate overdoses.

    That law must be counterproductive? Shouldn't the law be for the Doctor to prescribe rehab?

    Anyways, what is striking is how this epidemic is effecting the white rural population.
    There is a US lobbying group Patients for Pain Relief, or somesuch, that is funded entirely by the drug industry and which employs 1,300 lobbyists that goes round pushing states to make it easier for people to get painkiller prescriptions.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,074
    edited March 2017
    Macron Gallic surge klaxon

    https://www.twitter.com/europeelects/status/841244847155621889

    Edit: it seems the figures were tweeted the wrong way round and have been deleted. In fact it's a Le Pen surge..
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited March 2017
    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they can block a second vote but they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referendum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    Exactly. But the SNP have form promising things not within their gift, not that they're unique in that....
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    You're not misinterpreting it. There's also people who will vote Le Pen in R1 and Macron in R2!
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    WTFF? Not doubting you, but I'd be interested to read the source of that. Astonishing fact.
    https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/prescribing.html
    Astonishing but not really news. Middle America has had a very very tough decade. Suicides, drug abuse, non-participation in labour market, food stamps, etc. You can see why Trump chose MAGA as his mantra.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    Dupont-Aignan's book on his first 100 days as president seems to be selling well at Amazon: it's the no.1 pocket edition and the no.3 book on French politics.

    The top four on French politics are by

    1) Anne Nivat (war journalist; I don't know whether she supports any candidate)
    2) Jean-Luc Mélenchon
    3) Nicolas Dupont-Aignan
    4) Benoît Hamon
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
    There has to be an 'agreement' between the two sides - expect Mrs May to be not quite as trusting as Mr Cameron.....
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    I think Europe Elects is wrong, and Le Pen is 27-25 up in the first round over Macron.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited March 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    You're not misinterpreting it. There's also people who will vote Le Pen in R1 and Macron in R2!
    Are people lying the pollsters about that though?

    You have to assume there would be at least some Shy Le Pen elements within those second round "abstainers".
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,128
    I can see that rather than a 'we'll win easy' kinda day, it's going to be a 'you won't be allowed to have a referendum, SO THERE' one from the Brexityoons. Instructive.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    Sandpit said:

    Essexit said:

    Cyan said:

    The problem with this graphic from the FT is that it shows turnout falling by 28% between the rounds whereas the last time it fell was nearly 50 years ago.

    image

    Am I misinterpreting that, or does it say that there are people who'd vote Le Pen or Macron in the 1st round and abstain in the 2nd?
    You're not misinterpreting it. There's also people who will vote Le Pen in R1 and Macron in R2!
    Macron is the most popular "second choice" of Le Pen supporters. Basically, voters aren't very policy aware, and often vote on personalities.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rcs1000 said:

    I think Europe Elects is wrong, and Le Pen is 27-25 up in the first round over Macron.

    Yes, they've just corrected that.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822

    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
    There has to be an 'agreement' between the two sides - expect Mrs May to be not quite as trusting as Mr Cameron.....
    A compromise would be to tell Scotland they can have another referendum after the negotiations when they can judge the deal Her Majesty's government comes back with.

    But they can't just tell Scotland they're not having another referendum and that's that! If they try that it'll cause an explosion of rage north of the border.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    That's a rather selective bit of quotation - that article also says what I did, that at this stage (Jan 2016) he was on the fence. Maybe he couldn't see himself getting strongly behind Leave at that point, but changed his mind.

    During the referendum campaign itself, May certainly put her career ahead of the good of the country.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Patrick said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Anorak said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    WTFF? Not doubting you, but I'd be interested to read the source of that. Astonishing fact.
    https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/prescribing.html
    Astonishing but not really news. Middle America has had a very very tough decade. Suicides, drug abuse, non-participation in labour market, food stamps, etc. You can see why Trump chose MAGA as his mantra.
    I count 13 states from the map on that link which may have more than a prescription per person. Oddly all forming a contiguous block, and a lot of them are what I'd pejoratively call 'hillbilly states'
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    GIN1138 said:

    A compromise would be to tell Scotland they can have another referendum after the negotiations when they can judge the deal Her Majesty's government comes back with.

    But they can't just tell Scotland they're not having another referendum and that's that! If they try that it'll cause an explosion of rage north of the border.

    Ha ha, if the Scots could figure out how to export grievances they wouldn't need oil.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    US opiate deaths

    image
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017
    isam said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I thought you voted UKIP because you wanted us to get close to a Powellite agenda where we didn't have 'wide grinning piccaninnis chasing us to the shops'?
    Just keep saying whatever makes you feel good about yourself old chap
    I do!
    Better than tablets in the long run I reckon. Take plenty of exercise in the fresh air too

    https://goo.gl/images/kncwYI
    Those were the days! Not a piccaninni in sight.
    Strange word isn't it? Enoch never used it himself of course, except when quoting others
    And to think it was Druscilla Cotteril all this time. We should have known and it cost him his job and his reputation. Poor Enoch.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-433497/Widow-Enoch-Powells-Rivers-Blood-speech-really-did-exist.html
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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    "Give Scotland a different Brexit deal" indeed. Is Sturgeon the most irritating major politician in Britain?

    I have to say, it's remarkable that questions are raised about Russian infowar activities in the US, France, the Netherlands and Germany, but in Britain we haven't had much more than the suggestion that they sent out a few tweets to affect the Stoke by-election.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    Cyan said:

    "Give Scotland a different Brexit deal" indeed. Is Sturgeon the most irritating major politician in Britain?

    I quite like Nicola. She's out to get the best possible deal for her country and for the people who elected her. Which is what you want your leaders to do.

    Shame Westminster politicians haven't shown the same dedication to the people who elected them over the years. If they had we probably wouldn't have voted to LEAVE...
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
    ^ Why Remain lost, reason 3276
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,074
    Of course it's just possible that May has been keeping the idea of a different Brexit deal for Scotland up her sleeve and will deliver the goods...
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
    Crikey.... :smiley:
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
    This has always struck me as "just so" story. Aside from being "obvious", and having nice narrative value, where is the evidence for it? Johnson does not seem to have expressed regret over the Indyref result. Leave campaigners have consistently said he seemed, to them, genuinely up for the fight. Even the fuss over that mysterious "pro-remain" newspaper column he drafted does not seem, after closer scrutiny, to bear out the story of a man who was secretly pro-remain while publicly pro-leave. He seems to have regarded his skeleton argument for remaining as utter dross.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they can block a second vote but they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
    All agreed that the last Sindy ref was to make a decision for a generation.

    A generation is on average 33 years. So we should expect the next Sindy referendum in about 30 years.

    Otherwise should the next early referendum see a vote for independence, the losers will seek a 'best of three'.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know how aware people are of this, but the US has an extraordinary opiate addiction epidemic right now. In some US states, there are more opiate prescriptions than there are residents. In Tennessee, there is a law which states that if a doctor refuses to prescribe painkillers to a patient, he must refer them to someone who will.

    There are now more than 30,000 deaths per year from opiate overdoses.

    That law must be counterproductive? Shouldn't the law be for the Doctor to prescribe rehab?

    Anyways, what is striking is how this epidemic is effecting the white rural population.
    There is a US lobbying group Patients for Pain Relief, or somesuch, that is funded entirely by the drug industry and which employs 1,300 lobbyists that goes round pushing states to make it easier for people to get painkiller prescriptions.
    The American relationship with drugs is completely screwed, with the constant bombardment of television advertising "Ask your physician for Vicodin/Tramadol/Prosac" and lobbying groups who make themselves look like NGOs and charities. You even hear rappers plugging their favourite prescription drugs of choice, whether opiates or stimulants. And yet people wonder why there's addiction problems in that environment.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited March 2017

    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they can block a second vote but they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
    All agreed that the last Sindy ref was to make a decision for a generation.

    A generation is on average 33 years. So we should expect the next Sindy referendum in about 30 years.

    Otherwise should the next early referendum see a vote for independence, the losers will seek a 'best of three'.
    Didn't they put in a caveat "except if there's a major change in the UK's circumstances" ?

    You can't get a much bigger change than leaving the European Union (even though I voted LEAVE I can't deny it's the biggest upheval the UK has seen since WWII)
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If anyone thinks IndyRef2 will be called today the are cukoo.

    All that will be done is Sturgeon will, for the 100th time, lay out what conditions May needs to meet for Sturgeon not to call IndyRef2.

    Well until Sturgeon actually calls the referendum, Mrs May will just keep ignoring her.

    It's almost as if, for all the bluster, the SNP don't actually want to let the Scottish people decide their future governance.
    Sturgeon cannot call a Referendum - all she can do is ask for one.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,003
    Cyan said:

    Is Sturgeon the most irritating major politician in Britain?

    She is heinous but she can't be the most irritating while Dr. Liam Fox draws breath.

  • Options

    Of course it's just possible that May has been keeping the idea of a different Brexit deal for Scotland up her sleeve and will deliver the goods...

    I would not be surprised that in the end Scotland will be given more powers over her affairs in a deal that will satisfy the majority of Scots but still remain part of a semi Federal UK
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,128

    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they can block a second vote but they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
    All agreed that the last Sindy ref was to make a decision for a generation.

    A generation is on average 33 years. So we should expect the next Sindy referendum in about 30 years.

    Otherwise should the next early referendum see a vote for independence, the losers will seek a 'best of three'.
    I think all would agree that its fa to do with you.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    LOL, surely the best thing the media can do today is focus on the Commons and Lords, rather than giving jumped-up Ms McGrievance the oxygen of publicity she so desperately craves?
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    I've realised if we do get a second Indyref I'll be happy whatever the result.

    If Scots vote to remain a part of the UK I'll be able to laugh at the Scot Nats.

    If Scots vote to leave the UK I'll be able to blame the Leavers and warn them that Dave/Remain were right. Plus if Mrs May has any honour, she'd resign as PM, just as Dave would have done if the first Indyref had been lost, so George will become PM to fix the mess.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Dura_Ace said:

    Cyan said:

    Is Sturgeon the most irritating major politician in Britain?

    She is heinous but she can't be the most irritating while Dr. Liam Fox draws breath.

    Does Diane Abbott count as major? Given the amount of air time she gets?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    This is an interesting article on Theresa May.

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n06/david-runciman/do-your-homework
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,128
    Sandpit said:

    LOL, surely the best thing the media can do today is focus on the Commons and Lords, rather than giving jumped-up Ms McGrievance the oxygen of publicity she so desperately craves?
    Perhaps there should be government oversight over the media making decisions about what they should be covering.
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    Nicola saying Conservative Government until 2030 and beyond - never heard a week is a long time in politics
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited March 2017

    Plus if Mrs May has any honour, she'd resign as PM, just as Dave would have done if the first Indyref had been lost, so George will become PM to fix the mess.

    Keep dreaming... ;)
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, surely the best thing the media can do today is focus on the Commons and Lords, rather than giving jumped-up Ms McGrievance the oxygen of publicity she so desperately craves?
    Perhaps there should be government oversight over the media making decisions about what they should be covering.
    That's what Tom Watson seems to think.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Nicola saying Conservative Government until 2030 and beyond - never heard a week is a long time in politics

    And saying it like it was a bad thing?
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721

    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!


    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
    This has always struck me as "just so" story. Aside from being "obvious", and having nice narrative value, where is the evidence for it? Johnson does not seem to have expressed regret over the Indyref result. Leave campaigners have consistently said he seemed, to them, genuinely up for the fight. Even the fuss over that mysterious "pro-remain" newspaper column he drafted does not seem, after closer scrutiny, to bear out the story of a man who was secretly pro-remain while publicly pro-leave. He seems to have regarded his skeleton argument for remaining as utter dross.
    Did you not notice his shocked appearance the morning after the result?
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    BUT - Not turning my back on further discussions
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946

    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:

    Doesn't Westminster have to pass a referndum bill for there to be one? Not sure Wee Jimmy Krankie can do anything of any relvance on her own - other than UDI!
    I think Westminster does have to grant a referendum to Scotland but they can't deny the Scots another vote if they want one - Or rather they can block a second vote but they would be well advised not to try to block a second referendum if the Scots want it.
    All agreed that the last Sindy ref was to make a decision for a generation.

    A generation is on average 33 years. So we should expect the next Sindy referendum in about 30 years.

    Otherwise should the next early referendum see a vote for independence, the losers will seek a 'best of three'.
    I think all would agree that its fa to do with you.
    Usual fingers in their ears SNPers around this morning, I see.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ProfTomkins: FM: the UK must agree with me or else. That's not compromise, Nicola. That's belligerence.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Ranty mcRanty Face in full force.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Sandpit said:

    LOL, surely the best thing the media can do today is focus on the Commons and Lords, rather than giving jumped-up Ms McGrievance the oxygen of publicity she so desperately craves?
    Perhaps there should be government oversight over the media making decisions about what they should be covering.
    Err, no. They tried that approach in Scotland with Stephen Daisley and it didn't work out too well.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Sandpit said:

    LOL, surely the best thing the media can do today is focus on the Commons and Lords, rather than giving jumped-up Ms McGrievance the oxygen of publicity she so desperately craves?

    Tarty McTartFace hectoring again.


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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    Scott_P said:

    @ProfTomkins: FM: the UK must agree with me or else. That's not compromise, Nicola. That's belligerence.

    I'm sure her army of supporters on here will be cheering from their digital barracks!
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
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    So another Project Fear Reality prediction comes true.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Essexit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
    ^ Why Remain lost, reason 3276
    "Progressives" seem to hate the people of Hartlepool, for some reason.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    Oh McFuck...
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    Sean_F said:

    Essexit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!

    I do not for one moment believe Theresa May was a Remainer. All her instincts are to leave and through a hard leave.

    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.
    ^ Why Remain lost, reason 3276
    "Progressives" seem to hate the people of Hartlepool, for some reason.
    You can't trust the judgement of people that repeatedly elected Peter Mandelson as MP.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    So another Project Fear Reality prediction comes true.

    Or...sindy despite brexit...It was always coming given the massive gulf between the political leanings of England and Scotland. Sturgeon was always looking for a reason for another go.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Dura_Ace said:

    Essexit said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    I don't see much controversial in what Alastair has said. I would probably vote UKIP still even though our objective seems to have been fulfilled, there is always the worry that once you leave, the others revert to type. The facts is that every other party leader supported Remain, and the supposedly "Hardline Brexit" PM and chancellor are both Remainers. In Stoke, every other candidate was a Remainer etc etc

    Think of other places where a regime has been overthrown, would the victors be happy with the old guard in place, promising to have changed? I wont give examples as they would encourage inane faux outrage and deliberate misunderstanding, but I am sure you can figure them out!


    She said what she said is because she like most is not a principled politician, She believed Remain would win reasonably comfortably or at the very least, win.

    On the other hand, I am not sure what Boris' feelings were. My guess is that he wanted a narrow Remain win.
    My feeling re: Boris (based in large part on All Out War) is that he was genuinely on the fence before the referendum but cares about sovereignty, saw that the 'deal' did nothing, and couldn't bring himself to back Remain. Hence the initial 'I back Leave but probably won't campaign for them' followed by a realisation that this was a once-in-a-lifetime thing and you have to go hard or go home.
    I don't believe that is correct.
    "The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’." Boris
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/59416/boris-johnson-rules-out-leading-eu-leave-campaign
    Both Boris and May wanted to be PM and were willing to put that ahead of the good of the country.
    .
    This has always struck me as "just so" story. Aside from being "obvious", and having nice narrative value, where is the evidence for it? Johnson does not seem to have expressed regret over the Indyref result. Leave campaigners have consistently said he seemed, to them, genuinely up for the fight. Even the fuss over that mysterious "pro-remain" newspaper column he drafted does not seem, after closer scrutiny, to bear out the story of a man who was secretly pro-remain while publicly pro-leave. He seems to have regarded his skeleton argument for remaining as utter dross.
    Did you not notice his shocked appearance the morning after the result?
    Boris's hair has a permanent shocked appearance.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Dura_Ace said:


    The Boris gameplan was transparently obvious: lead an honourable Leave campaign to a narrow loss and garner favour thereby from the more mental reaches of the Conservative party to position himself as the post-Cameron leader. Unfortunately the thick chavs of Hartlepool blew his plan up in his fat fucking face.

    This has always struck me as "just so" story. Aside from being "obvious", and having nice narrative value, where is the evidence for it? Johnson does not seem to have expressed regret over the Indyref result. Leave campaigners have consistently said he seemed, to them, genuinely up for the fight. Even the fuss over that mysterious "pro-remain" newspaper column he drafted does not seem, after closer scrutiny, to bear out the story of a man who was secretly pro-remain while publicly pro-leave. He seems to have regarded his skeleton argument for remaining as utter dross.
    Did you not notice his shocked appearance the morning after the result?
    Eyewitnesses in the Leave team say he was pumped at the result. The result was a shock - accounts suggest Gove genuinely didn't believe they would win, too.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    surbiton said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:

    Second!

    It is interesting that both UKIP and the Lib Dems haven't really moved much in the polls.

    For all the hype, the Lib Dems really haven't made much progress in the polls at all. They've barely crawled up a few points since the EU referendum, and, worse, any progress they've made seems to have completely stalled since the New Year (after they got a bit of a lift following Richmond Park). They're only a bit ahead of where they were at this point in the disastrous 2010-15 parliament.

    Of course, the picture of the polls is completely contradicted by the local council byelections week after week, so goodness knows what's really going on with them.
    For all the hype? As far as I can see the LibDems have received very little.They get very little Press coverage and their Leader is regularly rubbished, both here and in the right-wing Press.

    Like Labour, the LibDems have a leader problem. Unlike Corbyn, Farron is not hopelessly out of touch, does not hold views that are anathema to 80% of the population and is not utterly useless at leading, but he does not have a persona that commands attention. With millions and millions of voters looking on in bemusement at what is currently happening in and to the UK looking for someone to articulate their frustration, the opportunity is huge. It's tailor-made for someone like Charlie Kennedy or a pre-coalition Clegg, but the LibDems do not have that god dust anymore, it seems.

    I think you are under estimating what the Liberals can do, if Corbyn stays in situ. 10% could easily become 20% in no time. Mostly, from Labour but a few from the Tories too.

    With a strong leader, I suspect that the LDs would already be closer to 20% than 10%. Farron just does not inspire. If Corbyn is in charge in 2020, they will probably get my vote (if anyone does), but it's easy for me - I live in a seat that the Tories are going to hold come what may.

    I think you underestimate the toxicity of LibDems to left of centre voters. It will take a generation before they will be forgiven for their role as 'the Tories little helpers'.
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    What is Section 30?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @kadhimshubber: The referendums will continue until morale improves
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    So another Project Fear Reality prediction comes true.

    I don't think more waffle from Nicla was a bold prediction.

    Salmon wants his job back - she's spinning the plates to keep him at bay.

    I predict a backlash against the SNP - the jocks are bored of referendums.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    "Sturgeon says it will also be important to be frank about the challenges of independence."

    Oh yes indeedy...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I look forward to the SNP plan for rejoining the EU - with details of their budget and currency plans.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Patrick said:

    What is Section 30?


    It's the one after Section 29.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    justin124 said:

    surbiton said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:

    Second!

    It is interesting that both UKIP and the Lib Dems haven't really moved much in the polls.

    For all the hype, the Lib Dems really haven't made much progress in the polls at all. They've barely crawled up a few points since the EU referendum, and, worse, any progress they've made seems to have completely stalled since the New Year (after they got a bit of a lift following Richmond Park). They're only a bit ahead of where they were at this point in the disastrous 2010-15 parliament.

    Of course, the picture of the polls is completely contradicted by the local council byelections week after week, so goodness knows what's really going on with them.
    For all the hype? As far as I can see the LibDems have received very little.They get very little Press coverage and their Leader is regularly rubbished, both here and in the right-wing Press.

    Like Labour, the LibDems have a leader problem. Unlike Corbyn, Farron is not hopelessly out of touch, does not hold views that are anathema to 80% of the population and is not utterly useless at leading, but he does not have a persona that commands attention. With millions and millions of voters looking on in bemusement at what is currently happening in and to the UK looking for someone to articulate their frustration, the opportunity is huge. It's tailor-made for someone like Charlie Kennedy or a pre-coalition Clegg, but the LibDems do not have that god dust anymore, it seems.

    I think you are under estimating what the Liberals can do, if Corbyn stays in situ. 10% could easily become 20% in no time. Mostly, from Labour but a few from the Tories too.

    With a strong leader, I suspect that the LDs would already be closer to 20% than 10%. Farron just does not inspire. If Corbyn is in charge in 2020, they will probably get my vote (if anyone does), but it's easy for me - I live in a seat that the Tories are going to hold come what may.

    I think you underestimate the toxicity of LibDems to left of centre voters. It will take a generation before they will be forgiven for their role as 'the Tories little helpers'.
    Rubbish. Huge numbers of voters by 2020 won't remember.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,128

    So another Project Fear Reality prediction comes true.

    Or...sindy despite brexit...It was always coming given the massive gulf between the political leanings of England and Scotland. Sturgeon was always looking for a reason for another go.
    How generous of the good folk of England to provide one. Thanks guys!
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    It is 7/1 and 8/1 that Theresa May steps down as PM in 2018 and 2019 respectively.

    Massive if Scots vote for Independence.

    (With Ladbrokes)
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    edited March 2017
    So Nicola says she wants the referendum between Autumn 2018 and Spring 2019.

    The UK's negotiations with the will end March 2019 so that leaves room for Scotland to have a referendum after in April or May 2019 after they see what kind of deal we get.

    Seems fair enough to me. HMG would be advised to accept that timeline.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Another 2 years of uncertainty and dropping investment in Scotland.

    Well played.
This discussion has been closed.