We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
Indeed. Despite what Farron and idiots at the Grauniad think, the UK is a great power.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
The PM delivered today. Quite what she delivered is no doubt tricky to decipher, but she has set out a reasonably clear framework, and has faced up to some big issues.
I have every sympathy with those that don't like the plan. I'm quite sure that Farron has gone completely over the top.
I've no idea where this will finish up and I'm still pondering what May said. For her though I think this has been a good speech, and that she is starting to show a good degree of character, and perhaps, just perhaps, showing the sort of mettle that might lead us through the minefield of Brexit.
The better May does the worse it is for Sturgeon (Perhaps for Corbyn too, but I can't be bothered with also rans). An independent Scotland within the EU when the rest of the UK is outside the EU doesn't work - and it doesn't work on toast. It might work if the SNP could somehow create a Gallic area of Ireland (all of it) and Scotland. Then they'd be big enough to count.
Why doesn't an independent Scotland within the EU when the rest of the UK is outside the EU work ? Do you think Ireland will leave the EU because of our Brexit ?
About 2/3rds of Scotland's trade is with rUK. Is it massively different from Ireland's ? Over time trade with other EU countries will increase.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
The PM delivered today. Quite what she delivered is no doubt tricky to decipher, but she has set out a reasonably clear framework, and has faced up to some big issues.
I have every sympathy with those that don't like the plan. I'm quite sure that Farron has gone completely over the top.
I've no idea where this will finish up and I'm still pondering what May said. For her though I think this has been a good speech, and that she is starting to show a good degree of character, and perhaps, just perhaps, showing the sort of mettle that might lead us through the minefield of Brexit.
The better May does the worse it is for Sturgeon (Perhaps for Corbyn too, but I can't be bothered with also rans). An independent Scotland within the EU when the rest of the UK is outside the EU doesn't work - and it doesn't work on toast. It might work if the SNP could somehow create a Gallic area of Ireland (all of it) and Scotland. Then they'd be big enough to count.
Why doesn't an independent Scotland within the EU when the rest of the UK is outside the EU work ? Do you think Ireland will leave the EU because of our Brexit ?
About 2/3rds of Scotland's trade is with rUK. Is it massively different from Ireland's ? Over time trade with other EU countries will increase.
Is that really the trend? The UK is seeing a growing proportion of trade with the rest of the world than the EU.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Yes you could. But this would mean amending UK primary legislation or at the very least a Statutory Instrument. this is just one small example from a field I work in. There will be countless others yet May assumes that once her Great Repeal Bill incorporates all EU law into British law all will be fine. It won't be.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
Indeed. Despite what Farron and idiots at the Grauniad think, the UK is a great power.
Yes. We have aircraft carriers with no aircrafts on them!
That's the opposite way round from what I expected. However perhaps more a "are they Prime Ministerial" type question than a "do you think they are doing well"
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Or the companies can hire someone elsewhere.
I'm sure that's just the news the Brits currently employed in this role wanted to hear.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Yes you could. But this would mean amending UK primary legislation or at the very least a Statutory Instrument. this is just one small example from a field I work in. There will be countless others yet May assumes that once her Great Repeal Bill incorporates all EU law into British law all will be fine. It won't be.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Day 1. Just like budgets. The racists just like the NO immigration bit until they find that the same number of immigrants will be here albeit fewer Europeans as the recent fall in sterling means their UK earnings will be 15% less in Euro terms - so less attractive. But we will get their replacements from non-EU countries, like Kosovo, Serbia, Russia, Kazakh.......
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Yes you could. But this would mean amending UK primary legislation or at the very least a Statutory Instrument. this is just one small example from a field I work in. There will be countless others yet May assumes that once her Great Repeal Bill incorporates all EU law into British law all will be fine. It won't be.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Well the EU would have to make that sort of an amendment, not us
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Yes you could. But this would mean amending UK primary legislation or at the very least a Statutory Instrument. this is just one small example from a field I work in. There will be countless others yet May assumes that once her Great Repeal Bill incorporates all EU law into British law all will be fine. It won't be.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
Indeed. Despite what Farron and idiots at the Grauniad think, the UK is a great power.
The UK is a medium-sized power. Of course, this is still a vast improvement on the opinions of much of the metropolitan liberal-left, who think we're uniquely shit amongst all the nations of the Earth.
On the wider strategic scale, Brexit will make the UK a medium-sized power with a certain degree of freedom of action. Rather than a semi-autonomous protectorate of the Eurozone, which is going to be the end state of the non-Euro members of the EU if the common currency survives for long enough for a political union to be achieved. Amongst other things, Brexit is a statement about our nation having a future, rather than simply being swallowed up by the big blue blob.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Why should the EU agree ?
The EU doesn't have to agree to anything, we are talking about the act of transposing all EU law into British law. The EU isn't involved in that process.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Well the EU would have to make that sort of an amendment, not us
Sorry, I was talking about the companies operating legally under UK law. The EU will have to change their regulations, or the companies will have to move/hire someone there.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Yes you could. But this would mean amending UK primary legislation or at the very least a Statutory Instrument. this is just one small example from a field I work in. There will be countless others yet May assumes that once her Great Repeal Bill incorporates all EU law into British law all will be fine. It won't be.
30000 extra civil servants needed. Many of them just to read 40 years of legislation for references to the EU.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
Or the companies can hire someone elsewhere.
I'm sure that's just the news the Brits currently employed in this role wanted to hear.
Of course not. But it's a small adjustment in national terms.
Day 1. Just like budgets. The racists just like the NO immigration bit until they find that the same number of immigrants will be here albeit fewer Europeans as the recent fall in sterling means their UK earnings will be 15% less in Euro terms - so less attractive. But we will get their replacements from non-EU countries, like Kosovo, Serbia, Russia, Kazakh.......
And this is why we can't have sensible debates about immigration.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
Indeed. Despite what Farron and idiots at the Grauniad think, the UK is a great power.
Yes. We have aircraft carriers with no aircrafts on them!
If we're so crap and the Americans have disengaged the EU can pay for their own aircraft carriers then(with no British EU budgetary contribution of course).
Day 1. Just like budgets. The racists just like the NO immigration bit until they find that the same number of immigrants will be here albeit fewer Europeans as the recent fall in sterling means their UK earnings will be 15% less in Euro terms - so less attractive. But we will get their replacements from non-EU countries, like Kosovo, Serbia, Russia, Kazakh.......
No we won't Serbia, Albania, Macedonia etc are next on the list to join the EU just with no free movement to the UK they will now be heading to France and Germany instead
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
And the fruitcakes will bake themselves presumably.
UNIONISTS 55% BRAVEHEARTS 45%
And you neither one of them. Always the voyeur, eh?
Er, I'm a Unionist, actually
If there's something in this world with less utility than nipples on a tom cat, it's an English Unionist.
Regardless, it looks like the UK Government may be learning to ignore the continual high-pitched whining noise coming from Holyrood, which is progress.
I read the speech differently:
"(M)inisters from each of the devolved administrations should be fully engaged in this process. (...) That is why the Government has set up a Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, so ministers from each of the UK’s devolved administrations can contribute to the process of planning for our departure from the European Union."
There's a world of difference between sensible co-operation, and drawing up a list of bribes to be thrown in panic in the general direction of Nicola Sturgeon, every time a new grievance whinge is broadcast from Edinburgh.
Pronouncements/demands concerning "Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will" and "Scotland having special status with respect to the single market" have fallen on deaf ears. This is good news.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
Indeed. Despite what Farron and idiots at the Grauniad think, the UK is a great power.
The UK is a medium-sized power. Of course, this is still a vast improvement on the opinions of much of the metropolitan liberal-left, who think we're uniquely shit amongst all the nations of the Earth.
On the wider strategic scale, Brexit will make the UK a medium-sized power with a certain degree of freedom of action. Rather than a semi-autonomous protectorate of the Eurozone, which is going to be the end state of the non-Euro members of the EU if the common currency survives for long enough for a political union to be achieved. Amongst other things, Brexit is a statement about our nation having a future, rather than simply being swallowed up by the big blue blob.
The UK is not in the first rank of global players. It is not the US, it is not China, it is not even Russia. Soon it will not be India or Brazil. But who is ahead after that taken across political, military and economic power combined? Not Germany, nor France, although they are in the same overall basket maybe
So to say Britain is a "medium-sized power" is to stretch the definition of medium. We are currently about 4th to 6th equal out of 200 plus states.
The lack of self-confidence in our nation exhibited on this site and elsewhere is a constant source of amazement to me.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Why should the EU agree ?
The EU doesn't have to agree to anything, we are talking about the act of transposing all EU law into British law. The EU isn't involved in that process.
And where EU law refers to EU institutions? How do we square that circle?
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Why should the EU agree ?
The EU doesn't have to agree to anything, we are talking about the act of transposing all EU law into British law. The EU isn't involved in that process.
And where EU law refers to EU institutions? How do we square that circle?
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Well you could change the regulations, or have a transitional arrangement in place.
That does seem a rather trivial point on which to cry "Wolf!" Do not most big Pharma have registered offices in more than one country already?
Chris Leslie suggesting Merkel is bluffing over red lines on the single market on BBC News ...
Doubtless constructing a fantasy scenario. in which May could've got complete tariff-free single market access *and* complete control over the borders at the same time, if only she had negotiated skilfully enough. The fact that this will not be achieved is to be framed as being the product of her incompetence, rather than the task being, in fact, impossible. Because Merkel is not bluffing.
How many people will actually fall for this rubbish remains to be seen...
@GuyVerhofstadt: Threatening to turn the UK into a deregulated tax heaven will not only hurt British people—it is a counterproductive negotiating tactic
@BethRigby: A view from Europe; and not the first time I've heard it from European allies today.... twitter.com/guyverhofstadt…
Scotland would be a net beneficiary or EU funds - but would it be more or less than the handout from RUk ?
I did the calculations a few months back (sorry, deleted the spreadsheet). IIRC correctly, Scotland would have net contributions to the EU of about GBP200-300m p.a. And it would lose UK subsidies.
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Small beer in the big scheme of things, but being a QP on a consultancy basis is a nice little earner for some pharmacists towards the end of their career and just after. That will piss off a few people.
I don't suppose that the big pharma companies will have too much difficulty in sourcing EU based QPs if they need them. It isn't much on its own, but it will be one part of a general pressure for pharma operations to move to the continent. It probably won't lead to any headlines but it will still be another way Brexit will hit people in their pockets.
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me 100s of jobs could be moved out of tmUK to elsewhere in Europe given Brexit. #davos2017 @itvnews
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me they're considering Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland & Malta for new subsidiary given Brexit
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to beimpaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
It's a free market inside a protectionist curtain.
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me 100s of jobs could be moved out of tmUK to elsewhere in Europe given Brexit. #davos2017 @itvnews
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me they're considering Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland & Malta for new subsidiary given Brexit
phew
good news
now there'll be more people to work in the NHS once all the migrants disappear
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to beimpaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
It's a free market inside a protectionist curtain.
YellowSubmarine is another one who thinks 7% is larger than 93%.
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
The EU represents less freedom. This is a day much like any other. The great day will be when we actually finally leave. That day is coming.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Well the EU would have to make that sort of an amendment, not us
Sorry, I was talking about the companies operating legally under UK law. The EU will have to change their regulations, or the companies will have to move/hire someone there.
Who cares ? It would have to be their contribution towards sunny Brexit.
Wouldn't it just need a clause saying that for the purposes of the act replace all instances of "EU member state" with "EU member state and the United Kingdom".
Well the EU would have to make that sort of an amendment, not us
Sorry, I was talking about the companies operating legally under UK law. The EU will have to change their regulations, or the companies will have to move/hire someone there.
Who cares ? It would have to be their contribution towards sunny Brexit.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
Indeed. Despite what Farron and idiots at the Grauniad think, the UK is a great power.
The UK is a medium-sized power. Of course, this is still a vast improvement on the opinions of much of the metropolitan liberal-left, who think we're uniquely shit amongst all the nations of the Earth.
On the wider strategic scale, Brexit will make the UK a medium-sized power with a certain degree of freedom of action. Rather than a semi-autonomous protectorate of the Eurozone, which is going to be the end state of the non-Euro members of the EU if the common currency survives for long enough for a political union to be achieved. Amongst other things, Brexit is a statement about our nation having a future, rather than simply being swallowed up by the big blue blob.
The UK is not in the first rank of global players. It is not the US, it is not China, it is not even Russia. Soon it will not be India or Brazil. But who is ahead after that taken across political, military and economic power combined? Not Germany, nor France, although they are in the same overall basket maybe
So to say Britain is a "medium-sized power" is to stretch the definition of medium. We are currently about 4th to 6th equal out of 200 plus states.
The lack of self-confidence in our nation exhibited on this site and elsewhere is a constant source of amazement to me.
For sure. Being born British may not be first prize in the lottery of life, these days, but it's certainly within the top 10%.
A dark dark day for the Union. It's the worst of all possible worlds. Actual Brexit makes Scottish Independence harder in practice. But Hard Brexit will increase the real and percieved grievance in Scotland at the democratic deficit. Assuming Sturgeon doesn't cut and run before the window slams shut we're in for over a decade of increasingly bitter quasi separatism.
For the first time in my life, and this breaks my heart, I think the Scots should go. Though with the proviso not being honest at the start it would be a lengthy and painful process not the SNP's fairyland. As someone who thinks of my Britishness as my primary identity the is hugely painful. But can I honestly ask non English Britons to pay the price for English exceptionalism ?
As for Northern Ireland.... It's in limbo with neither unification, the status quo or independence being viable. What I would say though is unionism is a two way street. If Northern Ireland Unionists have help strip me of my European rights, identity and citizenship why should I give a flying f**k about their British ones ? Why should I support the huge fiscal and political transfers needed to keep their statelet afloat ?
They should pray renegade republicans don't decide to roll the dice on a post crash nativist England with a shrivelled defence budget not having the will for another war.
Happy to bet on there being a referendum - or that Nippy resigns permanently in protest at May blocking one.
Yep, I'll certainly take a bet against the notion that May blocking a referendum would weaken Sturgeon to the point of resigning. I'll also take a bet on there being a referendum before the end of 2020 - Shadsy & Betfred currently offering 11/10, I'll generously take evens.
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me 100s of jobs could be moved out of tmUK to elsewhere in Europe given Brexit. #davos2017 @itvnews
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me they're considering Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland & Malta for new subsidiary given Brexit
phew
good news
now there'll be more people to work in the NHS once all the migrants disappear
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to beimpaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
It's a free market inside a protectionist curtain.
YellowSubmarine is another one who thinks 7% is larger than 93%.
7% can be bigger than 93%. It depends what it's 7% of.
@MichaelLCrick: Ukip source says they're picking candidate for Stoke Central tonight. Leader Paul Nuttall IS in the running, I'm told
UKIP 3.35 on Betfair, will surely come in if they pick Nuttall? Tories 12.5 looks value too, or does someone know they're not even going to try?
What possible reason is there to vote UKIP after today's speech?
To keep it hard.
It sounds like Theresa is able to keep it hard for them all by herself.
I'm not convinced by any of the reasons to vote UKIP given so far, other than some voters might pick them because they can't stomach the Tories.
But that doesn't sound like a by-election winner to me.
Very true difficult to see where UKIP go now they have achieved their objective .Cameron took one hell of a beating from the fruitcakes loonies and closet racists.
Chris Leslie suggesting Merkel is bluffing over red lines on the single market on BBC News ...
Doubtless constructing a fantasy scenario. in which May could've got complete tariff-free single market access *and* complete control over the borders at the same time, if only she had negotiated skilfully enough. The fact that this will not be achieved is to be framed as being the product of her incompetence, rather than the task being, in fact, impossible. Because Merkel is not bluffing.
How many people will actually fall for this rubbish remains to be seen...
It's enterprising for Leavers to push this line, given that most of them spent all of 2016 arguing that Britain could have its cake and eat it in exactly this way. But no doubt they will forget this, 1984 style, as they celebrate their own definitive failure on this front.
@Hayley_Barlow: This is Gloria Allred's client who filed a lawsuit today against Donald Trump today. pic.twitter.com/CjqNDW3iUp
@Hayley_Barlow: Gloria Allred tells press conf her client filed defamation lawsuit against President Elect Donald Trump - 'subjected to unwanted touching' pic.twitter.com/J8loQejQoD
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to beimpaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
It's a free market inside a protectionist curtain.
Absolutely.
And Brexit has now cut through that curtain, shining light onto the Europeans - some other nations inside will hopefully see the light before the Eurocrats bind the darkness once again.
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
It's a good day.
and the internal market is as much about protectionism as it is free trade, perhaps more.
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
Sky news poll today was completely different. Majority want out of single market if I heard right.
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
Hmm, no it's sounding less and less good. In fact, I'm struggling to see what the Leavers are now wanting to get out of all this - other than sticking one to 'the Remoaners', Juncker and the Guardian. The ambition of global trade has been reduced to a hollow mockery, as it's now predicated on tax cuts for multinationals and oligarchs that can only be funded by austerity for the natives. And I'll wager high immigration from - if not Europe - South America and Asia has been secretly pencilled in to buttress Britain's new role as a global sweatshop. In some ways you can't blame May: it's either that or managed decline. But it doesn't appeal.
Chris Leslie suggesting Merkel is bluffing over red lines on the single market on BBC News ...
Doubtless constructing a fantasy scenario. in which May could've got complete tariff-free single market access *and* complete control over the borders at the same time, if only she had negotiated skilfully enough. The fact that this will not be achieved is to be framed as being the product of her incompetence, rather than the task being, in fact, impossible. Because Merkel is not bluffing.
How many people will actually fall for this rubbish remains to be seen...
It's enterprising for Leavers to push this line, given that most of them spent all of 2016 arguing that Britain could have its cake and eat it in exactly this way. But no doubt they will forget this, 1984 style, as they celebrate their own definitive failure on this front.
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
Sky news poll today was completely different. Majority want out of single market if I heard right.
Mike has resorted to sharing 'defacto' (frivolous conclusion, wholly unreliable) voodoo polls - when he knows full well the dramatic impact the question can have on the answer. If only because Tim Farron mentions it in his Guardian article...
It's a dark dark day for Britain's Left. For all the enormous problems with the alliance between metropolitan liberalism and the working class it's the only one we've got. If large chunks of the WWC have retreated into natavism and metropolitan liberals find it a bridge to far then we'll have Tory governments 4 terms out of 5 at least. Operations of the size and iconic nature of Nissan are the exception not the rule. Even the richest Corporatist governments can only afford so many comfort letters.
We all know what " Global Britain " means in terms of import standards, deregulation and the tax base. Both May's speech and Hammond's weekend interviews were admirably honest. It was Matthew Elliott's genius to harness WWC grief over the European social model to blow up a huge chunk of what's left of the European social model.
I wish these ex industrial areas with high Leave votes well in the new political reality. If they think their political alliance with people like me was bad I wish them better luck with Liam Fox.
A dark dark day for the Union. It's the worst of all possible worlds. Actual Brexit makes Scottish Independence harder in practice. But Hard Brexit will increase the real and percieved grievance in Scotland at the democratic deficit. Assuming Sturgeon doesn't cut and run before the window slams shut we're in for over a decade of increasingly bitter quasi separatism.
For the first time in my life, and this breaks my heart, I think the Scots should go. Though with the proviso not being honest at the start it would be a lengthy and painful process not the SNP's fairyland. As someone who thinks of my Britishness as my primary identity the is hugely painful. But can I honestly ask non English Britons to pay the price for English exceptionalism ?
As for Northern Ireland.... It's in limbo with neither unification, the status quo or independence being viable. What I would say though is unionism is a two way street. If Northern Ireland Unionists have help strip me of my European rights, identity and citizenship why should I give a flying f**k about their British ones ? Why should I support the huge fiscal and political transfers needed to keep their statelet afloat ?
They should pray renegade republicans don't decide to roll the dice on a post crash nativist England with a shrivelled defence budget not having the will for another war.
People on my side of the political spectrum will warm to the Unionists.
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
Sky news poll today was completely different. Majority want out of single market if I heard right.
Opinium also had borders to be prioritised over the single market on Saturday. Something like 56-44.
The argument for the single market has been lost just as the argument for the EU was.
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
Sky news poll today was completely different. Majority want out of single market if I heard right.
The UK is not in the first rank of global players. It is not the US, it is not China, it is not even Russia. Soon it will not be India or Brazil. But who is ahead after that taken across political, military and economic power combined? Not Germany, nor France, although they are in the same overall basket maybe
So to say Britain is a "medium-sized power" is to stretch the definition of medium. We are currently about 4th to 6th equal out of 200 plus states.
The lack of self-confidence in our nation exhibited on this site and elsewhere is a constant source of amazement to me.
The key point though is that the UK can exercise its influence most effectively through multilateral arrangements like the EU, NATO and so on. It has little unilateral influence, unlike global players such as the U.S. and China. But it has very significant influence when it teams up with similar countries such as Germany, France, Australia, Canada etc. It's not Suriname or Belgium who have little influence of any kind.
I have mentioned three classes of countries and the UK is in the middle one of those classes.If you object to the term, "medium-sized power" .... It's not a lack of self confidence, it's simply an assessment of where Britain's interest lies. In general it's as an important part of multilateral system.
A dark dark day for the Union. It's the worst of all possible worlds. Actual Brexit makes Scottish Independence harder in practice. But Hard Brexit will increase the real and percieved grievance in Scotland at the democratic deficit. Assuming Sturgeon doesn't cut and run before the window slams shut we're in for over a decade of increasingly bitter quasi separatism.
For the first time in my life, and this breaks my heart, I think the Scots should go. Though with the proviso not being honest at the start it would be a lengthy and painful process not the SNP's fairyland. As someone who thinks of my Britishness as my primary identity the is hugely painful. But can I honestly ask non English Britons to pay the price for English exceptionalism ?
As for Northern Ireland.... It's in limbo with neither unification, the status quo or independence being viable. What I would say though is unionism is a two way street. If Northern Ireland Unionists have help strip me of my European rights, identity and citizenship why should I give a flying f**k about their British ones ? Why should I support the huge fiscal and political transfers needed to keep their statelet afloat ?
They should pray renegade republicans don't decide to roll the dice on a post crash nativist England with a shrivelled defence budget not having the will for another war.
Oh my goodness, we're back to war, pestilence and famine. All after one speech from the PM
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
Hmm, no it's sounding less and less good. In fact, I'm struggling to see what the Leavers are now wanting to get out of all this - other than sticking one to 'the Remoaners', Juncker and the Guardian. The ambition of global trade has been reduced to a hollow mockery, as it's now predicated on tax cuts for multinationals and oligarchs that can only be funded by austerity for the natives. And I'll wager high immigration from - if not Europe - South America and Asia has been secretly pencilled in to buttress Britain's new role as a global sweatshop. In some ways you can't blame May: it's either that or managed decline. But it doesn't appeal.
Wow. You should top yourself now to save punishing yourself further
They should pray renegade republicans don't decide to roll the dice on a post crash nativist England with a shrivelled defence budget not having the will for another war.
I don't know how to put this without sounding rude but since the Referendum your posts have steadily gotten worse. You are verging on Icke like rambling now.
A dark dark day for the Union. It's the worst of all possible worlds. Actual Brexit makes Scottish Independence harder in practice. But Hard Brexit will increase the real and percieved grievance in Scotland at the democratic deficit. Assuming Sturgeon doesn't cut and run before the window slams shut we're in for over a decade of increasingly bitter quasi separatism.
For the first time in my life, and this breaks my heart, I think the Scots should go. Though with the proviso not being honest at the start it would be a lengthy and painful process not the SNP's fairyland. As someone who thinks of my Britishness as my primary identity the is hugely painful. But can I honestly ask non English Britons to pay the price for English exceptionalism ?
As for Northern Ireland.... It's in limbo with neither unification, the status quo or independence being viable. What I would say though is unionism is a two way street. If Northern Ireland Unionists have help strip me of my European rights, identity and citizenship why should I give a flying f**k about their British ones ? Why should I support the huge fiscal and political transfers needed to keep their statelet afloat ?
They should pray renegade republicans don't decide to roll the dice on a post crash nativist England with a shrivelled defence budget not having the will for another war.
Oh my goodness, we're back to war, pestilence and famine. All after one speech from the PM
It's laughable isn't it. I've been watching the World at War recently. Actual War, not a few lattes less each week. Some people need some perspective.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Why would the be acting illegally?
Because under EU Directive 2010/84/EU and Regulation 1235/2010, specifically Article 23, which governs the licensing of medicines in the EU each company must employ a Qualified Person in Pharmacovigilance (QPPV) and said person must reside in an EU member state. Most them (because we take much of the lead) reside in the UK.
Small beer in the big scheme of things, but being a QP on a consultancy basis is a nice little earner for some pharmacists towards the end of their career and just after. That will piss off a few people.
I don't suppose that the big pharma companies will have too much difficulty in sourcing EU based QPs if they need them. It isn't much on its own, but it will be one part of a general pressure for pharma operations to move to the continent. It probably won't lead to any headlines but it will still be another way Brexit will hit people in their pockets.
It's a big issue for Switzerland and they are in the Single Market. The main work of drug companies is regulatory. That work has largely to be done in the EU.
It's a dark dark day for Britain's Left. For all the enormous problems with the alliance between metropolitan liberalism and the working class it's the only one we've got. If large chunks of the WWC have retreated into natavism and metropolitan liberals find it a bridge to far then we'll have Tory governments 4 terms out of 5 at least. Operations of the size and iconic nature of Nissan are the exception not the rule. Even the richest Corporatist governments can only afford so many comfort letters.
We all know what " Global Britain " means in terms of import standards, deregulation and the tax base. Both May's speech and Hammond's weekend interviews were admirably honest. It was Matthew Elliott's genius to harness WWC grief over the European social model to blow up a huge chunk of what's left of the European social model.
I wish these ex industrial areas with high Leave votes well in the new political reality. If they think their political alliance with people like me was bad I wish them better luck with Liam Fox.
They'll probably understand what Fox is saying better than your highfalutin twaddle.
A dark day for human freedom and progress. While May only told us what we already new words are magic. For a sitting British PM, a Conservative one at that, to say out loud we are withdrawing from the Single Market is epochal. The Single Market is the biggest and best free trade agreement on the planet. There is no upside to leaving in trade terms. The damage from leaving can be mitigated in other ways but it's a bad thing for a free trading nation to do. And Britain is defined by Free Trade. The Four Freedoms are going to be impaired in both directions. All the evidence of human history is less freedom means less wealth, less health and less happiness. She didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but words are magic. It's a dark day.
The EU is anti-democratic. I don't see how that can be defined as 'free'.
The EU could be a great thing. It isn't. That's the tragedy of all this. That something that could and should be great is run to the dissatisfaction of most EU citizens.
In a perfect world I'd love the EU to change imto something great and for the UK to be part of it. It won't, so we've done the right thing.
How any freedom loving liberal can see good in the Eastern European states being brain-drained of their young talent so they can emigrate here and work for pittance (I worked with a Polish teacber who spoke five languages and she was working in a menial job for minimum wage) is beyond me. The freedom of movement issue should and could've been handled far better.
@glw I think it's more likely I touched a nerve. Republican terrorist campaigns in Northern Ireland are hardly a hypothetical. We ended up in a stalemate and negotiated settlement the last time when we had a Cold War military and a much more unified sense of Britishness. Which isn't to say a resumption of violence is likely. It's to ask if it's now more likely ? Or less unlikely if you prefer. The Border issue in Brexit and in republican mythology is a real one.
Anyway as you've reached straight for Ad Hominem rather than engage in any of my specific points you can shove your opinion of my post where the sun don't shine !
It's a dark dark day for Britain's Left. For all the enormous problems with the alliance between metropolitan liberalism and the working class it's the only one we've got. If large chunks of the WWC have retreated into natavism and metropolitan liberals find it a bridge to far then we'll have Tory governments 4 terms out of 5 at least. Operations of the size and iconic nature of Nissan are the exception not the rule. Even the richest Corporatist governments can only afford so many comfort letters.
We all know what " Global Britain " means in terms of import standards, deregulation and the tax base. Both May's speech and Hammond's weekend interviews were admirably honest. It was Matthew Elliott's genius to harness WWC grief over the European social model to blow up a huge chunk of what's left of the European social model.
I wish these ex industrial areas with high Leave votes well in the new political reality. If they think their political alliance with people like me was bad I wish them better luck with Liam Fox.
@Yellow I'd ignore the silly responses upthread.....I look out for your posts for some sense of rationality, as I'm sure many others do.
It is utterly bizarre how the likes of the Brexit ideological right wing maniacs and right wing extremists like Trump have managed to assume the voice of the WWC, but they have.....for now.
The left will fight back and win because ultimately fairness, equality and human rights are part of human evolution.
Chris Leslie suggesting Merkel is bluffing over red lines on the single market on BBC News ...
Doubtless constructing a fantasy scenario. in which May could've got complete tariff-free single market access *and* complete control over the borders at the same time, if only she had negotiated skilfully enough. The fact that this will not be achieved is to be framed as being the product of her incompetence, rather than the task being, in fact, impossible. Because Merkel is not bluffing.
How many people will actually fall for this rubbish remains to be seen...
It's enterprising for Leavers to push this line, given that most of them spent all of 2016 arguing that Britain could have its cake and eat it in exactly this way. But no doubt they will forget this, 1984 style, as they celebrate their own definitive failure on this front.
I've got a list of PB Leavers who said we wouldn't lose financial passporting/my planning for opening a Paris office was an extension of project fear.
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
Sky news poll today was completely different. Majority want out of single market if I heard right.
Opinium also had borders to be prioritised over the single market on Saturday. Something like 56-44.
The argument for the single market has been lost just as the argument for the EU was.
I'd be surprised if there ever was an argument in the TM camp. If she wore socks, I'm sure she'd be laughing them off now
Comments
About 2/3rds of Scotland's trade is with rUK. Is it massively different from Ireland's ? Over time trade with other EU countries will increase.
I'm not convinced by any of the reasons to vote UKIP given so far, other than some voters might pick them because they can't stomach the Tories.
But that doesn't sound like a by-election winner to me.
On the wider strategic scale, Brexit will make the UK a medium-sized power with a certain degree of freedom of action. Rather than a semi-autonomous protectorate of the Eurozone, which is going to be the end state of the non-Euro members of the EU if the common currency survives for long enough for a political union to be achieved. Amongst other things, Brexit is a statement about our nation having a future, rather than simply being swallowed up by the big blue blob.
Pronouncements/demands concerning "Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will" and "Scotland having special status with respect to the single market" have fallen on deaf ears. This is good news.
So to say Britain is a "medium-sized power" is to stretch the definition of medium. We are currently about 4th to 6th equal out of 200 plus states.
The lack of self-confidence in our nation exhibited on this site and elsewhere is a constant source of amazement to me.
That does seem a rather trivial point on which to cry "Wolf!" Do not most big Pharma have registered offices in more than one country already?
How many people will actually fall for this rubbish remains to be seen...
Damian Green cheering the fact that business will avoid any cliff edge in the negotiations...
...immediately after the PM being praised for being willing to walk away with no deal.
Hows does no deal avoid a cliff edge?
@BethRigby: A view from Europe; and not the first time I've heard it from European allies today.... twitter.com/guyverhofstadt…
I don't suppose that the big pharma companies will have too much difficulty in sourcing EU based QPs if they need them. It isn't much on its own, but it will be one part of a general pressure for pharma operations to move to the continent. It probably won't lead to any headlines but it will still be another way Brexit will hit people in their pockets.
I’m told David Cameron & George Osborne are both being paid tens of thousands of pounds to speak at private dinners at Davos this year #wef
@noreenahertz: Lloyds of London CEO Inga Beale tells me they're considering Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland & Malta for new subsidiary given Brexit
The start point is that we are Out Out.
good news
now there'll be more people to work in the NHS once all the migrants disappear
Oh. Never mind
For the first time in my life, and this breaks my heart, I think the Scots should go. Though with the proviso not being honest at the start it would be a lengthy and painful process not the SNP's fairyland. As someone who thinks of my Britishness as my primary identity the is hugely painful. But can I honestly ask non English Britons to pay the price for English exceptionalism ?
As for Northern Ireland.... It's in limbo with neither unification, the status quo or independence being viable. What I would say though is unionism is a two way street. If Northern Ireland Unionists have help strip me of my European rights, identity and citizenship why should I give a flying f**k about their British ones ? Why should I support the huge fiscal and political transfers needed to keep their statelet afloat ?
They should pray renegade republicans don't decide to roll the dice on a post crash nativist England with a shrivelled defence budget not having the will for another war.
£100 on each?
Or their German one
@Hayley_Barlow: Gloria Allred tells press conf her client filed defamation lawsuit against President Elect Donald Trump - 'subjected to unwanted touching' pic.twitter.com/J8loQejQoD
And Brexit has now cut through that curtain, shining light onto the Europeans - some other nations inside will hopefully see the light before the Eurocrats bind the darkness once again.
https://twitter.com/edwardineurope/status/821128582504337408
Oops
Interesting
We all know what " Global Britain " means in terms of import standards, deregulation and the tax base. Both May's speech and Hammond's weekend interviews were admirably honest. It was Matthew Elliott's genius to harness WWC grief over the European social model to blow up a huge chunk of what's left of the European social model.
I wish these ex industrial areas with high Leave votes well in the new political reality. If they think their political alliance with people like me was bad I wish them better luck with Liam Fox.
The argument for the single market has been lost just as the argument for the EU was.
I have mentioned three classes of countries and the UK is in the middle one of those classes.If you object to the term, "medium-sized power" .... It's not a lack of self confidence, it's simply an assessment of where Britain's interest lies. In general it's as an important part of multilateral system.
@joelycett: I like my sex like I like my brexit: hard, and overseen by Theresa May.
@BlondieBlonde70: I like my men how I like my Brexit. Hard and knowing it's a terrible mistake that probably won't work out in the long run...
The EU could be a great thing. It isn't. That's the tragedy of all this. That something that could and should be great is run to the dissatisfaction of most EU citizens.
In a perfect world I'd love the EU to change imto something great and for the UK to be part of it. It won't, so we've done the right thing.
How any freedom loving liberal can see good in the Eastern European states being brain-drained of their young talent so they can emigrate here and work for pittance (I worked with a Polish teacber who spoke five languages and she was working in a menial job for minimum wage) is beyond me. The freedom of movement issue should and could've been handled far better.
Anyway as you've reached straight for Ad Hominem rather than engage in any of my specific points you can shove your opinion of my post where the sun don't shine !
I'd ignore the silly responses upthread.....I look out for your posts for some sense of rationality, as I'm sure many others do.
It is utterly bizarre how the likes of the Brexit ideological right wing maniacs and right wing extremists like Trump have managed to assume the voice of the WWC, but they have.....for now.
The left will fight back and win because ultimately fairness, equality and human rights are part of human evolution.
For now, there is a setback....
Turns out project fear was project reality.