"The Prime Minister has today set out a clear and reasonable plan for Britain as we prepare for the negotiations that will come. She has also reaffirmed that Britain wants to remain the best friend and ally to our European neighbours. She has made it clear that we want to support UK businesses by continuing to trade freely in Europe after we leave the EU. She has also spelled out that she will prioritise the protection of our own Union of nations, respecting the vote that we took in Scotland to remain part of the UK. All of these commitments are extremely welcome. It is now vital that we all pull together across the UK, to secure the best deal for all of us. There is no reason why both Britain and the European Union cannot emerge from the negotiations in stronger shape."
A strong remainer who is very much with the program.
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
@IanDunt: Security cooperation is a core component of UK Brexit strategy, but think what that entails: Give us what we want or we stop helping.
@IanDunt: As in the EU citizens case, it's worth imagining what happens if they call our bluff. We get intelligence of an impending attack And what?
@IanDunt: We do nothing and tell no-one? Morally unthinkable. But then the government keeps asking us to consider the morally unthinkable.
That really is simplistic nonsense. There is every difference in the world between passing on hard information of an imminent attack (which we would of course do) and having detailed day to day co-operation which passes on a great deal of material not obviously of use on its own but which allows other countries to join the dots when added to what they already have. No one else in the EU has made anything like the investment we have in GCHQ and no one else has the US material that we have to add to it. If the EU thinks it can do without it or continues to angst about whether it is compatible with the ECHR as adopted into the EU treaties that is a matter for them but I suspect those who are at risk may have a view that differs from some of the legalists.
Presumably cooperation is a two way street and we benefit from their information also. Perhaps not as much.
But still-hunt if it's a question of anti-terrorism wouldn't public will be pretty unsympathetic to the idea that we have reduced cooperation as a bargaining tactic?
Most of the intelligence sharing agreements are surprisingly informal:
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
Yep. May's speech/position on Brexit is the exact opposite of that. It's his proposal of kowtowing to Brussels for ever and ever that's waving the white flag.
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
Soars from $1.50 to $1.24 that is.
The year I was born, the $/£ exchange rate was 2.81. It's been going downhill for a long time.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
Really? I would have thought there was a supply/demand aspect to this. If they don't have enough part time staff either the government can increase supply by allowing more seasonal work permits, or the farmers can increase demand by paying more. Of course, that would lead to higher prices in the shops.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
You seem to imply that no one with a brown face could possibly be European. Yet again.
Remainers' obsession with race and the Empire never ceases to amaze.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
Exactly. Plus she can pretend that she is giving May a fair chance to protect Scottish interests in the negotiations. And if brexit turns out badly... It will be easy to blame it all in Westminster.
That's a much more likely line than getting her knickers in a twist about membership of the European Single Market. And Nicola is a smart political operator. It makes perfect sense for her to play the waiting game.
Yes - the waiting game is a good way of putting it.
And if there is a Sindy referendum after we have left the EU we can look forward to an absolutely smorgasboard of hypocrisy from all sides.
Former remainers will be arguing how easy it will be for independent Scotland to get a deal with the EU and the UK... it's in their economic interest obviously.... and English conservatives will be saying how there will be a punishment deal for Scotland and how they are too small a country vs. UK to trade alone.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
But seriously, no one has factored this in: the huge devaluation will increase prices and wage rises will follow. Plus the unskilled labour market will tighten and, therefore, costs of production increase. Some service firms will go out of business.
Britain will become the new Japan. Racist and expensive!
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
LOL, up 2% after dropping 20% , what turkeys.
Agreed. It was this bit that surprised me: "she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements."
Sounded to me like it was just we will be tough and hope for the best.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
But seriously, no one has factored this in: the huge devaluation will increase prices and wage rises will follow. Plus the unskilled labour market will tighten and, therefore, costs of production increase. Some service firms will go out of business.
Britain will become the new Japan. Racist and expensive!
I think the speech succeeded in its political objective, which is to present Theresa May's no negotiation, Hard Brexit approach as inevitable and therefore not needing challenge or debate. I think enough people probably do think that - either because they are baffled, uninterested, in denial or signed up anyway. Her road is clear.
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
Soars from $1.50 to $1.24 that is.
The year I was born, the $/£ exchange rate was 2.81. It's been going downhill for a long time.
I remember when the pound dollar was 1.05 in the 1980s.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
Exactly. Plus she can pretend that she is giving May a fair chance to protect Scottish interests in the negotiations. And if brexit turns out badly... It will be easy to blame it all in Westminster.
That's a much more likely line than getting her knickers in a twist about membership of the European Single Market. And Nicola is a smart political operator. It makes perfect sense for her to play the waiting game.
Yes - the waiting game is a good way of putting it.
And if there is a Sindy referendum after we have left the EU we can look forward to an absolutely smorgasboard of hypocrisy from all sides.
Former remainers will be arguing how easy it will be for independent Scotland to get a deal with the EU and the UK... it's in their economic interest obviously.... and English conservatives will be saying how there will be a punishment deal for Scotland and how they are too small a country vs. UK to trade alone.
Ironically it is very much in the SNP's interests for the UK to have pretty much unlimited access to the Single Market. If there are barriers between the Single Market and the UK leaving the UK will become pretty much impossible for Scotland because the UK internal market is critical to our economic wellbeing. The choice between rUK and rEU is a complete no brainer. The SNP will only have an argument if that choice does not have to be made.
"The Prime Minister has today set out a clear and reasonable plan for Britain as we prepare for the negotiations that will come. She has also reaffirmed that Britain wants to remain the best friend and ally to our European neighbours. She has made it clear that we want to support UK businesses by continuing to trade freely in Europe after we leave the EU. She has also spelled out that she will prioritise the protection of our own Union of nations, respecting the vote that we took in Scotland to remain part of the UK. All of these commitments are extremely welcome. It is now vital that we all pull together across the UK, to secure the best deal for all of us. There is no reason why both Britain and the European Union cannot emerge from the negotiations in stronger shape."
A strong remainer who is very much with the program.
Dear dear David, she would lick anyones you know what for self advancement, she is like the town clock , a face for everyone.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
Exactly. Plus she can pretend that she is giving May a fair chance to protect Scottish interests in the negotiations. And if brexit turns out badly... It will be easy to blame it all in Westminster.
That's a much more likely line than getting her knickers in a twist about membership of the European Single Market. And Nicola is a smart political operator. It makes perfect sense for her to play the waiting game.
Yes - the waiting game is a good way of putting it.
And if there is a Sindy referendum after we have left the EU we can look forward to an absolutely smorgasboard of hypocrisy from all sides.
Former remainers will be arguing how easy it will be for independent Scotland to get a deal with the EU and the UK... it's in their economic interest obviously.... and English conservatives will be saying how there will be a punishment deal for Scotland and how they are too small a country vs. UK to trade alone.
But the UK wants to trade with all countries. Surely, the dis-United Kingdom will trade with Scotland too!
In any case, why can't Scotland as it is today, have the same "border arrangements" as May is proposing between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Scotland being part of the UK still stays in the single market! Who knows after next weeks verdict, it may even be possible.
@IanDunt: Security cooperation is a core component of UK Brexit strategy, but think what that entails: Give us what we want or we stop helping.
@IanDunt: As in the EU citizens case, it's worth imagining what happens if they call our bluff. We get intelligence of an impending attack And what?
@IanDunt: We do nothing and tell no-one? Morally unthinkable. But then the government keeps asking us to consider the morally unthinkable.
That really is simplistic nonsense. There is every difference in the world between passing on hard information of an imminent attack (which we would of course do) and having detailed day to day co-operation which passes on a great deal of material not obviously of use on its own but which allows other countries to join the dots when added to what they already have. No one else in the EU has made anything like the investment we have in GCHQ and no one else has the US material that we have to add to it. If the EU thinks it can do without it or continues to angst about whether it is compatible with the ECHR as adopted into the EU treaties that is a matter for them but I suspect those who are at risk may have a view that differs from some of the legalists.
Presumably cooperation is a two way street and we benefit from their information also. Perhaps not as much.
But still-hunt if it's a question of anti-terrorism wouldn't public will be pretty unsympathetic to the idea that we have reduced cooperation as a bargaining tactic?
Most of the intelligence sharing agreements are surprisingly informal:
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
How hostile they are?
Personally I would see even the threat of ending intelligence cooperation as pretty hostile. Especially if it were over something as unrelated as trade quotas or tariff barriers...
Even if 90% of the benefit is to the EU and only 10% is to the UK... I just don't see how we could even suggest we would mess around with this... Security is surely too important to risk playing games.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
But seriously, no one has factored this in: the huge devaluation will increase prices and wage rises will follow. Plus the unskilled labour market will tighten and, therefore, costs of production increase. Some service firms will go out of business.
Britain will become the new Japan. Racist and expensive!
My take on today is that Theresa May has adopted a pretty shit position but she didn't have much choice. The speech should have been delivered three months ago and she is woefully poor at finding anything to say to former Remain supporters other than "suck it up".
Meanwhile, international co-operation was just taken another notch down.
Corbyn nowhere to be seen. Nothing to say. No leadership. Utterly, utterly clueless.
Would someone put the labour party out of its misery. Just kill it now.
Don’t be mean, Jeremy is formulating a response as we speak, unfortunately Margret of Maidstone has him on hold, while she chats to her mother on the other line…
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
Exactly. Plus she can pretend that she is giving May a fair chance to protect Scottish interests in the negotiations. And if brexit turns out badly... It will be easy to blame it all in Westminster.
That's a much more likely line than getting her knickers in a twist about membership of the European Single Market. And Nicola is a smart political operator. It makes perfect sense for her to play the waiting game.
Yes - the waiting game is a good way of putting it.
And if there is a Sindy referendum after we have left the EU we can look forward to an absolutely smorgasboard of hypocrisy from all sides.
Former remainers will be arguing how easy it will be for independent Scotland to get a deal with the EU and the UK... it's in their economic interest obviously.... and English conservatives will be saying how there will be a punishment deal for Scotland and how they are too small a country vs. UK to trade alone.
All too true. I did have to pull myself up the other day when I was thinking it would be economically suicide for Scotland to leave the UK single market in favour of the EU Single Market. The fact is what is good for the goose must be good for the gander. If economic arguments are not the be all and end all for Brexit, neither should they be for Sindy. And just as it's our democratic right to choose the relative merits of national control vs economic benefit, so it is Scotland's.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
Fergals?
Free movement into the UK remains for Fergals under all options.
My take on today is that Theresa May has adopted a pretty shit position but she didn't have much choice. The speech should have been delivered three months ago and she is woefully poor at finding anything to say to former Remain supporters other than "suck it up".
Meanwhile, international co-operation was just taken another notch down.
No Alastair, Boris Johnson is running a 'global' foreign policy. We support a two state solution in the Middle East and everything...
My take on today is that Theresa May has adopted a pretty shit position but she didn't have much choice. The speech should have been delivered three months ago and she is woefully poor at finding anything to say to former Remain supporters other than "suck it up".
Meanwhile, international co-operation was just taken another notch down.
@IanDunt: Security cooperation is a core component of UK Brexit strategy, but think what that entails: Give us what we want or we stop helping.
@IanDunt: As in the EU citizens case, it's worth imagining what happens if they call our bluff. We get intelligence of an impending attack And what?
@IanDunt: We do nothing and tell no-one? Morally unthinkable. But then the government keeps asking us to consider the morally unthinkable.
That really is simplistic nonsense. There is every difference in the world between passing on hard information of an imminent attack (which we would of course do) and having detailed day to day co-operation which passes on a great deal of material not obviously of use on its own but which allows other countries to join the dots when added to what they already have. No one else in the EU has made anything like the investment we have in GCHQ and no one else has the US material that we have to add to it. If the EU thinks it can do without it or continues to angst about whether it is compatible with the ECHR as adopted into the EU treaties that is a matter for them but I suspect those who are at risk may have a view that differs from some of the legalists.
Presumably cooperation is a two way street and we benefit from their information also. Perhaps not as much.
But still-hunt if it's a question of anti-terrorism wouldn't public will be pretty unsympathetic to the idea that we have reduced cooperation as a bargaining tactic?
Most of the intelligence sharing agreements are surprisingly informal:
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
How hostile they are?
Personally I would see even the threat of ending intelligence cooperation as pretty hostile. Especially if it were over something as unrelated as trade quotas or tariff barriers...
Even if 90% of the benefit is to the EU and only 10% is to the UK... I just don't see how we could even suggest we would mess around with this... Security is surely too important to risk playing games.
You're dealing with Leavers. For them, there is literally nothing more important than leaving the EU. Anything else can be trashed along the way.
@IanDunt: Security cooperation is a core component of UK Brexit strategy, but think what that entails: Give us what we want or we stop helping.
@IanDunt: As in the EU citizens case, it's worth imagining what happens if they call our bluff. We get intelligence of an impending attack And what?
@IanDunt: We do nothing and tell no-one? Morally unthinkable. But then the government keeps asking us to consider the morally unthinkable.
That really is simplistic nonsense. There is every difference in the world between passing on hard information of an imminent attack (which we would of course do) and having detailed day to day co-operation which passes on a great deal of material not obviously of use on its own but which allows other countries to join the dots when added to what they already have. No one else in the EU has made anything like the investment we have in GCHQ and no one else has the US material that we have to add to it. If the EU thinks it can do without it or continues to angst about whether it is compatible with the ECHR as adopted into the EU treaties that is a matter for them but I suspect those who are at risk may have a view that differs from some of the legalists.
Presumably cooperation is a two way street and we benefit from their information also. Perhaps not as much.
But still-hunt if it's a question of anti-terrorism wouldn't public will be pretty unsympathetic to the idea that we have reduced cooperation as a bargaining tactic?
Most of the intelligence sharing agreements are surprisingly informal:
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
How hostile they are?
Personally I would see even the threat of ending intelligence cooperation as pretty hostile. Especially if it were over something as unrelated as trade quotas or tariff barriers...
Even if 90% of the benefit is to the EU and only 10% is to the UK... I just don't see how we could even suggest we would mess around with this... Security is surely too important to risk playing games.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My take on today is that Theresa May has adopted a pretty shit position but she didn't have much choice. The speech should have been delivered three months ago and she is woefully poor at finding anything to say to former Remain supporters other than "suck it up".
Meanwhile, international co-operation was just taken another notch down.
My take on today is that Theresa May has adopted a pretty shit position but she didn't have much choice. The speech should have been delivered three months ago and she is woefully poor at finding anything to say to former Remain supporters other than "suck it up".
Meanwhile, international co-operation was just taken another notch down.
She can put you down as maybe then?
I thought she did quite well today in the circumstances, better than I was expecting from her. She clearly has some perception of realism, which is well ahead of almost all of her colleagues.
@IanDunt: Security cooperation is a core component of UK Brexit strategy, but think what that entails: Give us what we want or we stop helping.
@IanDunt: As in the EU citizens case, it's worth imagining what happens if they call our bluff. We get intelligence of an impending attack And what?
@IanDunt: We do nothing and tell no-one? Morally unthinkable. But then the government keeps asking us to consider the morally unthinkable.
That really is simplistic nonsense. There is every difference in the world between passing on hard information of an imminent attack (which we would of course do) and having detailed day to day co-operation which passes on a great deal of material not obviously of use on its own but which allows other countries to join the dots when added to what they already have. No one else in the EU has made anything like the investment we have in GCHQ and no one else has the US material that we have to add to it. If the EU thinks it can do without it or continues to angst about whether it is compatible with the ECHR as adopted into the EU treaties that is a matter for them but I suspect those who are at risk may have a view that differs from some of the legalists.
Presumably cooperation is a two way street and we benefit from their information also. Perhaps not as much.
But still-hunt if it's a question of anti-terrorism wouldn't public will be pretty unsympathetic to the idea that we have reduced cooperation as a bargaining tactic?
Most of the intelligence sharing agreements are surprisingly informal:
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
How hostile they are?
Personally I would see even the threat of ending intelligence cooperation as pretty hostile. Especially if it were over something as unrelated as trade quotas or tariff barriers...
Even if 90% of the benefit is to the EU and only 10% is to the UK... I just don't see how we could even suggest we would mess around with this... Security is surely too important to risk playing games.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
@IanDunt: Security cooperation is a core component of UK Brexit strategy, but think what that entails: Give us what we want or we stop helping.
@IanDunt: As in the EU citizens case, it's worth imagining what happens if they call our bluff. We get intelligence of an impending attack And what?
@IanDunt: We do nothing and tell no-one? Morally unthinkable. But then the government keeps asking us to consider the morally unthinkable.
Presumably cooperation is a two way street and we benefit from their information also. Perhaps not as much.
But still-hunt if it's a question of anti-terrorism wouldn't public will be pretty unsympathetic to the idea that we have reduced cooperation as a bargaining tactic?
Most of the intelligence sharing agreements are surprisingly informal:
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
How hostile they are?
Personally I would see even the threat of ending intelligence cooperation as pretty hostile. Especially if it were over something as unrelated as trade quotas or tariff barriers...
Even if 90% of the benefit is to the EU and only 10% is to the UK... I just don't see how we could even suggest we would mess around with this... Security is surely too important to risk playing games.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
It would take a remarkably ungenerous spirit to interpret May's remarks as a threat. Over to you Alastair.
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
Soars from $1.50 to $1.24 that is.
The year I was born, the $/£ exchange rate was 2.81. It's been going downhill for a long time.
I remember when the pound dollar was 1.05 in the 1980s.
1.20 is the sunny uplands.
That lead to Margaret Thatcher saying, the pound can never be less than the dollar. Join the ERM
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
That's your paraphrasing. I don't think anyone has said anything stronger than 'out is out' and we (or anyone else) can't expect to have the benefits without the obligations.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
That's the most obvious statement ever. If support for an independent Scotland rises then the likelihood of another indy ref rises.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
That's the most obvious statement ever. If support for an independent Scotland rises then the likelihood of another indy ref rises.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
Theresa May: "If we were excluded from accessing the Single Market – we would be free to change the basis of Britain’s economic model."
She seems to be using the word "free" in as fake a way as Vodafone.
"Access to the single market" means being allowed to trade with EU27. Even North Korea has access to the single market.
Britain imports almost half its food, including 27% of it from EU27. If Britain were excluded from accessing the single market, there would be a sizeable risk of famine.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
Anything's possible, but there are a fair number of hoops that the Yes campaign are going to have to jump through to get to a majority next time around.
Regardless, it looks like the UK Government may be learning to ignore the continual high-pitched whining noise coming from Holyrood, which is progress.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
That's the most obvious statement ever. If support for an independent Scotland rises then the likelihood of another indy ref rises.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
And the fruitcakes will bake themselves presumably.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
And the fruitcakes will bake themselves presumably.
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
Soars from $1.50 to $1.24 that is.
The year I was born, the $/£ exchange rate was 2.81. It's been going downhill for a long time.
I remember when the pound dollar was 1.05 in the 1980s.
1.20 is the sunny uplands.
That must have been for a few days at most! The average range even during that year was nearer $1.4
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
How does that work? If another heavyweight country were to leave, their negotiating position would be stronger with Britain on its way out than if Britain were staying in, and Britain's negotiating position would also be stronger.
The French elite won't think to themselves "Britain's just received an awfully hard kick in the tads from the Boche, so to protect our own tads we'd better snuggle up to the lovely Boche." Well, some of it might, but not all.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
That's the most obvious statement ever. If support for an independent Scotland rises then the likelihood of another indy ref rises.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
Sounds like a pretty good job there, where do you apply.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
And the fruitcakes will bake themselves presumably.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
And the fruitcakes will bake themselves presumably.
UNIONISTS 55% BRAVEHEARTS 45%
And you neither one of them. Always the voyeur, eh?
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
Regardless, it looks like the UK Government may be learning to ignore the continual high-pitched whining noise coming from Holyrood, which is progress.
I read the speech differently:
"(M)inisters from each of the devolved administrations should be fully engaged in this process. (...) That is why the Government has set up a Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, so ministers from each of the UK’s devolved administrations can contribute to the process of planning for our departure from the European Union."
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Economic security could be seen as part of the package. You'd be right to say that could be seen as a two way street.
We have 800 British troops in Estonia.I'm sure the Baltic and other East European countries wouldn't want to so damage our economy through hardball negotiations that we might have to consider whether we could afford to maintain them there,particularly in the light of recent PEOTUS comments. Like it or not this is Realpolitik.
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Look doing a tough trade deal is one thing... Might not be nice but not unreasonable.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
I can see that but do not agree that it makes sense to take things off the table that favour us even before we start to negotiate.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
Short of electing Lembit Opik to the post, I think any LD leader would be doing well in the circumstances: they're filling a vacuum.
Regardless, it looks like the UK Government may be learning to ignore the continual high-pitched whining noise coming from Holyrood, which is progress.
I read the speech differently:
"(M)inisters from each of the devolved administrations should be fully engaged in this process. (...) That is why the Government has set up a Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, so ministers from each of the UK’s devolved administrations can contribute to the process of planning for our departure from the European Union."
If only the whiners on here could listen and read rather than whinge
"Pound soars as Theresa May soothes European single market fears Pound on course for biggest rise in eight years after PM says she will seek to preserve some single market arrangements." Citywire Money
Soars from $1.50 to $1.24 that is.
The year I was born, the $/£ exchange rate was 2.81. It's been going downhill for a long time.
I remember when the pound dollar was 1.05 in the 1980s.
1.20 is the sunny uplands.
That must have been for a few days at most! The average range even during that year was nearer $1.4
On my birthday is was $2.79 and change. The shocker was that the Swiss franc was at 12!
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
I thought the quote was:
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you prepare for government.”
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
The problem with that is UKIP are just about to pass stage 4
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
.
Ancient history was never my strong point, but didn't Gandhi believe in national sovereignty?
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Tim (F) has an enviable position compared with Nicola -
Her options are to call a referendum to leave a big single market to retain a small one whilst ditching the pound for the Euro or scuttle away to the shadows grumbling.
The written statement rather than the tour of the news studios suggests she's already picked the latter.
His unenviable position is being an utter cock.
Farron makes Ed Miliband seem electable
I think Norman Lamb is one of the best MPs in the business. I would've picked him over Farron. I think Farron is a good campaigner but not a leader. He looks like Owen Jones's older brother.
Spot on. Tim Farron is a good campaigner but Norman Lamb is a good strategist.
I think Farron is doing very well indeed.
Agreed.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” ― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting. And then ....winning here.
no more cough mixture for you
Quite. Most pharmaceutical companies will be operating illegally the moment we leave, yet Mrs May assures us that the Great Repeal Bill will be all hunky-dory and we won't notice any difference.
Tim Farron accuses Theresa May of "waving the white flag from the White Cliffs of Dover".
Seriously? - What an utter prick he is.
It's an odd phrase - but he's done well today. Actually looked like the Opposition Leader.
If Nuttall runs for UKIP in Stoke, it raises the stakes all round. Humiliating him would be a big win for the other parties.
Farron is at least getting a hearing. And filling in some of that void where the Labour Party used to be. One consequence of May making her speech outside Parliament is that the LOTO is not given pride of place in responding and Farron, who may or may not have even been called in the House, has taken full advantage. Corbyn, not so much.
I imagine that this evening's Channel 4 news will include a 20 minute soft-soap interview with Farron, and everyone agreeing how beastly Brexit is.
Very likely. Will Corbyn even get a mention? Completely irrelevant. The chart that Mike showed of the proportion of remainers supporting the Lib Dems is only going to go in one direction, albeit I suspect the absolute number of die in the ditch remainers will fall over time.
If all goes smoothly and nobody notices prices going up you could be right. Plenty more potential downside than upside for Theresa I suspect.
Oh this is not going to be easy. But don't underestimate the upside if she delivers a UK outside the EU that feels very, very like it felt inside the EU but with much more control of immigration.
But it could equally end up with higher prices and immigration just coming from the rest of the world rather than Europe.
You don't mean "darkies" will be picking fruit in Lincolnshire, surely ?
The current favoured Leave position, as far as I can ascertain that they have one, is that the fruit is going to pick itself.
And the fruitcakes will bake themselves presumably.
UNIONISTS 55% BRAVEHEARTS 45%
And you neither one of them. Always the voyeur, eh?
The PM delivered today. Quite what she delivered is no doubt tricky to decipher, but she has set out a reasonably clear framework, and has faced up to some big issues.
I have every sympathy with those that don't like the plan. I'm quite sure that Farron has gone completely over the top.
I've no idea where this will finish up and I'm still pondering what May said. For her though I think this has been a good speech, and that she is starting to show a good degree of character, and perhaps, just perhaps, showing the sort of mettle that might lead us through the minefield of Brexit.
The better May does the worse it is for Sturgeon (Perhaps for Corbyn too, but I can't be bothered with also rans). An independent Scotland within the EU when the rest of the UK is outside the EU doesn't work - and it doesn't work on toast. It might work if the SNP could somehow create a Gallic area of Ireland (all of it) and Scotland. Then they'd be big enough to count.
If Britain were excluded from accessing the single market, there would be a sizeable risk of famine.
Prize for today's comedy post goes to Dromedary
Did you appreciate that I was poking fun at Theresa May's notion that Britain might be excluded from accessing the single market? "Access to the single market" wouldn't be a huge achievement by Britain's great negotiators. Even North Korea manages that. In the eventuality of exclusion, Britain would have to get 27% of its food from somewhere else. Am I not allowed to take the prime minister's stupid words seriously for a laugh?
We'll find out how hostile they are once we invoke A50. I hope they're not, naturally.
My point was... If we threaten this... We are the hostile ones... This should be totally separate to trade deals.
The EU has already made many hostile remarks, including the need to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
How does that work? If another heavyweight country were to leave, their negotiating position would be stronger with Britain on its way out than if Britain were staying in, and Britain's negotiating position would also be stronger.
The French elite won't think to themselves "Britain's just received an awfully hard kick in the tads from the Boche, so to protect our own tads we'd better snuggle up to the lovely Boche." Well, some of it might, but not all.
Agreed that there is a logical flaw in the position, but it seems to be the EU position, regardless. Presumably, those who hold that position, and it is not all of the EU27, feel that if they make Brexit painful enough, even if it is less painful for the next leavers, it will still be worse for them than putting up with the status quo, no matter how shitty that is.
If Britain were excluded from accessing the single market, there would be a sizeable risk of famine.
Prize for today's comedy post goes to Dromedary
Did you appreciate that I was poking fun at Theresa May's notion that Britain might be excluded from accessing the single market? "Access to the single market" wouldn't be a huge achievement by Britain's great negotiators. Even North Korea manages that. In the eventuality of exclusion, Britain would have to get 27% of its food from somewhere else. Am I not allowed to take the prime minister's stupid words seriously for a laugh?
Sorry, I frequently have difficulty with irony on the interweb.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
That's the most obvious statement ever. If support for an independent Scotland rises then the likelihood of another indy ref rises.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
@DPJHodges: BBC: "Nicola Sturgeon says an #indyref2 is "undoubtedly" closer". Sturgeon isn't fooling anyone. She's bottling it. May's called her bluff.
Doesn't it depend how the Scottish people react to Brexit over the next few months/years? If it becomes clear that the settled will has changed and there is a majority for Sindy, then there'll be another go.
That's the most obvious statement ever. If support for an independent Scotland rises then the likelihood of another indy ref rises.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
That's a job? In Dundee its more of a hobby.
I meant cows! Although I'm sure there are few heifers in Dundee........
Theresa May: "If we were excluded from accessing the Single Market – we would be free to change the basis of Britain’s economic model."
She seems to be using the word "free" in as fake a way as Vodafone.
"Access to the single market" means being allowed to trade with EU27. Even North Korea has access to the single market.
Britain imports almost half its food, including 27% of it from EU27. If Britain were excluded from accessing the single market, there would be a sizeable risk of famine.
If reducing Corporation Tax is such a good idea, why doesn't every country do it ? Surely, UK is not Ireland.
Comments
"The Prime Minister has today set out a clear and reasonable plan for Britain as we prepare for the negotiations that will come.
She has also reaffirmed that Britain wants to remain the best friend and ally to our European neighbours.
She has made it clear that we want to support UK businesses by continuing to trade freely in Europe after we leave the EU. She has also spelled out that she will prioritise the protection of our own Union of nations, respecting the vote that we took in Scotland to remain part of the UK. All of these commitments are extremely welcome.
It is now vital that we all pull together across the UK, to secure the best deal for all of us. There is no reason why both Britain and the European Union cannot emerge from the negotiations in stronger shape."
A strong remainer who is very much with the program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_de_Berne
The UK has 2nd party agreements with most of the major EU countries. The UK has the best SIGINT capability by a country mile, and (obviously) access to a good deal of US product as well.
We wouldn't end cooperation lightly - the Yanks would be holding our feet to the fire - but we shouldn't rule anything out. It depends on how hostile the rEU are.
And if there is a Sindy referendum after we have left the EU we can look forward to an absolutely smorgasboard of hypocrisy from all sides.
Former remainers will be arguing how easy it will be for independent Scotland to get a deal with the EU and the UK... it's in their economic interest obviously.... and English conservatives will be saying how there will be a punishment deal for Scotland and how they are too small a country vs. UK to trade alone.
Britain will become the new Japan. Racist and expensive!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-38652939
Would someone put the labour party out of its misery. Just kill it now.
http://tinyurl.com/hpw5jd8
I remember when the pound dollar was 1.05 in the 1980s.
1.20 is the sunny uplands.
In any case, why can't Scotland as it is today, have the same "border arrangements" as May is proposing between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Scotland being part of the UK still stays in the single market! Who knows after next weeks verdict, it may even be possible.
Personally I would see even the threat of ending intelligence cooperation as pretty hostile. Especially if it were over something as unrelated as trade quotas or tariff barriers...
Even if 90% of the benefit is to the EU and only 10% is to the UK... I just don't see how we could even suggest we would mess around with this... Security is surely too important to risk playing games.
Meanwhile, international co-operation was just taken another notch down.
https://www.ft.com/content/414246f6-dbe4-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6
https://twitter.com/m_c_klein/status/821420660643733505
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunrobin_Castle
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/821408319948591104
"Whether you’re leave or remain, Theresa May just betrayed you on Brexit
Nine out of 10 voters want Britain in the single market, yet May is ripping us out. Only the Lib Dems are fighting to oppose this treachery"
"Betrayal" and "treachery," just in the headers. The caring sharing party gets the knives out.
So much that it is still 2 €cents below what it was just 17 days back.
But.....Scotland won't vote to Leave if we have control of freedom of movement. Especially if they live in the rural backwaters of Scotland where the only jobs is insemination.
https://torrentfreak.com/bts-piracy-warning-information-confusing-outdated-170117/
She seems to be using the word "free" in as fake a way as Vodafone.
"Access to the single market" means being allowed to trade with EU27. Even North Korea has access to the single market.
Britain imports almost half its food, including 27% of it from EU27. If Britain were excluded from accessing the single market, there would be a sizeable risk of famine.
Regardless, it looks like the UK Government may be learning to ignore the continual high-pitched whining noise coming from Holyrood, which is progress.
BRAVEHEARTS 45%
The French elite won't think to themselves "Britain's just received an awfully hard kick in the tads from the Boche, so to protect our own tads we'd better snuggle up to the lovely Boche." Well, some of it might, but not all.
Withdrawing security cooperation and making both EU and UK less safe because we are annoyed about a tariff on cars is madness. Surely you can see that?
Always the voyeur, eh?
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”
― Mahatma Gandi
We've moved from ignoring to ridiculing and have begun the fighting.
And then ....winning here.
"(M)inisters from each of the devolved administrations should be fully engaged in this process. (...) That is why the Government has set up a Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, so ministers from each of the UK’s devolved administrations can contribute to the process of planning for our departure from the European Union."
Survey respondents saying "we like single market access" is a bit like them saying "we like pretty flowers" or "we would like a free pony." It stands to reason, but what percentage of the population is *really* that bothered? I mean, in an engaged and committed way, rather than in a very vague, sense that being out might cost us some money, sort of a way?
I reckon that an awful lot more voters get hot under the collar at the thought of open borders continuing than they do about not being in the European single market. Hence May's choice of priorities. She's cottoned onto the fact that the economy, whilst very important, has its rivals for voters attention: issues of identity and community. And that the latter may even be more important for more people now than the former.
Besides, as is obvious when you think about it, the only way to remain fully engaged in the single market, other than EU membership, is EEA membership. Which is basically staying in the EU, but with a few extra policy opt-outs and no seat at the council table. And that would piss off even more voters.
On my birthday is was $2.79 and change. The shocker was that the Swiss franc was at 12!
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you prepare for government.”
I have every sympathy with those that don't like the plan. I'm quite sure that Farron has gone completely over the top.
I've no idea where this will finish up and I'm still pondering what May said. For her though I think this has been a good speech, and that she is starting to show a good degree of character, and perhaps, just perhaps, showing the sort of mettle that might lead us through the minefield of Brexit.
The better May does the worse it is for Sturgeon (Perhaps for Corbyn too, but I can't be bothered with also rans). An independent Scotland within the EU when the rest of the UK is outside the EU doesn't work - and it doesn't work on toast. It might work if the SNP could somehow create a Gallic area of Ireland (all of it) and Scotland. Then they'd be big enough to count.