Again that nails my own thoughts exactly. The week before #indyref I was out walking with a view of Scotland and actually cried. The sense of impending bereavement was immense. I fell a bit of this with with my European Citizenship but it's nowhere near as powerful. However now in #indyref2 I would be neutral. I wouldn't welcome or wish for the death of Britain. It would be a tragedy. But it would feel like the final act of a tragedy already in play and doomed to reach that conclusion. The sense that both my europeaness and Britishness and now unraveling is why I feel so strongly.
Both of you have a diminished sense of being British and feel less in tune with your countrymen after the referendum. I can imagine how much that hurts and genuinely hope it gets better without in any way seeking to belittle the sense of loss.
I genuinely don't feel less in tune with my countrymen post-23rd June. I knew what the referendum result would be way in advance and I absolutely understand what drove so many people to vote Leave. What we had was a referendum on immigration and in that sense the government is absolutely right to react in the way that it has - voters have clearly signalled they want a lot less of it. Not because they are racists and xenophobes (though some are, of course), but because it is the most visible consequence of a globalising world that they rightly feel has left them behind economically, socially and culturally. However, I also think the government's rhetoric and current confusion is going to do us a lot of harm. People in other countries hear what we say and look at what we do, and they form opinions about us as a country that will affect the way in which they deal with us. What's more, I don't think that leaving the EU is going to shield people from globalisation or increase their economic and social well-being. The opposite, in fact. But we are where we are and there is no going back.
Whilst I do think a small minority of Remain voters are clapping their hands with glee at any prospect of bad news, the vast majority have simply accepted the referendum result and want the best deal between the UK and EU.
However, this isn't a one way street. We've had the woeful misreporting of a murder of a Polish man attributed to the vote, a rise in reported hate crimes [stupid term] but no rise in successful prosecutions, and general doom-mongering.
There's a risk that the more zealous elements on either side proclaim Leavers to be racists and Remainers to be traitors. Again, slightly reminiscent of the intra-city conflicts between those supporting democracy and oligarchy during the Peloponnesian War.
The vast, vast majority of Remain voters are patriots who accept a democratic decision has been reached. Even Vince Cable seems to be in this group.
Really, the argument now is between Hard Brexit, and Harder Brexit. (And soon Brexit With a Vengence.)
I suspect that is right and the sooner we focus on the essential building blocks and deals necessary for a merely hard Brexit the better. Wasting time pretending soft Brexit is a viable option and that we are going to be in the Single Market in any meaningful sense risks the latter options.
Beautifully crafted editorial in today's Daily Mail calling Remain voters " the enemy within ". Of course when you reread it in outrage it never quite says that explicitly. It's beautifully written to provide plausible deniability but the psychological effect is clear. They call remain voters " the enemy within ". Interesting Zeitgeist.
embittered Tory Remainers led by ex-chancellor George Osborne are already threatening to subvert the referendum result in the Commons.
is there any other type of Remainer than "embittered"
Quite a few have accepted the verdict & moved on.
The people have spoken, the barstewards, now make the best of it.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
If Sindy had gone the other way I would have felt exactly the same, no doubt pointing out every calamity which fell upon Scotland demonstrated how people got it wrong but doing so because I had lost a very important part of my sense of self. Would I have come to terms eventually? It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than this.
Indeed.
I think you can split the hardline EU supporters into EU nationalists who think of themselves as citizens of Europe and 1%ers who support the concentration of power into the hands of people like themselves.
I have sympathy for the 'European Citizens' but none for the 1%ers.
Having listened to the tape, its the sort of thing insecure braggarts say and have said down the ages......so nothing new there then......I suspect a lot of this is priced in - tho the GOP in full pearl clutching mode is a vision to behold....what may be more damaging is his response.....classic 'look squirrel'......hasn't exactly got 'rising above it' written all over it.....
There was a good reason for the old moral code that prized virginity until marriage, treatefmen and women as having different roles in life with chivalrous behaviour encouraged and had things like gender segregated colleges at universities.
St Augustine, St Paul and co understood rather more about base human flawed nature, especially regarding the sexual urge, than modern progressives do. Unfortunately our young women are discovering that their so called sexual liberation is like a city taking down its walls while the barbarians are camped outside.
Yes, I'm sure women long once again for the days when they were chattel to be traded.
I suspect few would - although plenty convert to Islam even in the UK.
The issue is whether women are happier and safer than in the bad old days. Other than in the wealthy elite and upper middle classes I suspect many are not.
Having listened to the tape, its the sort of thing insecure braggarts say and have said down the ages......so nothing new there then......I suspect a lot of this is priced in - tho the GOP in full pearl clutching mode is a vision to behold....what may be more damaging is his response.....classic 'look squirrel'......hasn't exactly got 'rising above it' written all over it.....
depends if he actually did what he said. I suspect there will be some people coming out to say how he did what he said he would very soon...
Beautifully crafted editorial in today's Daily Mail calling Remain voters " the enemy within ". Of course when you reread it in outrage it never quite says that explicitly. It's beautifully written to provide plausible deniability but the psychological effect is clear. They call remain voters " the enemy within ". Interesting Zeitgeist.
embittered Tory Remainers led by ex-chancellor George Osborne are already threatening to subvert the referendum result in the Commons.
is there any other type of Remainer than "embittered"
Quite a few have accepted the verdict & moved on.
The people have spoken, the barstewards, now make the best of it.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
If Sindy had gone the other way I would have felt exactly the same, no doubt pointing out every calamity which fell upon Scotland demonstrated how people got it wrong but doing so because I had lost a very important part of my sense of self. Would I have come to terms eventually? It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than this.
David, no different from now as you wonder at Scotland going in a downward spiral. We will never improve when we are an afterthought getting crumbs from someone elses table. Unable to make any decision , we are just told what we are to do and have to bow and scrape and get on with it.
There was a good reason for the old moral code that prized virginity until marriage, treatefmen and women as having different roles in life with chivalrous behaviour encouraged and had things like gender segregated colleges at universities.
St Augustine, St Paul and co understood rather more about base human flawed nature, especially regarding the sexual urge, than modern progressives do. Unfortunately our young women are discovering that their so called sexual liberation is like a city taking down its walls while the barbarians are camped outside.
Yes, I'm sure women long once again for the days when they were chattel to be traded.
I suspect few would - although plenty convert to Islam even in the UK.
The issue is whether women are happier and safer than in the bad old days. Other than in the wealthy elite and upper middle classes I suspect many are not.
I suspect even the lower classes are happy about the whole not having to carry life threatening pregnancies to term anymore.
Mr. P, that graph has weird scales. The time frame ends immediately after the vote (would've been useful to have more up to date information) and the odd 2.something scale on the x-axis doesn't offer much in the way of explanation.
There was a good reason for the old moral code that prized virginity until marriage, treatefmen and women as having different roles in life with chivalrous behaviour encouraged and had things like gender segregated colleges at universities.
St Augustine, St Paul and co understood rather more about base human flawed nature, especially regarding the sexual urge, than modern progressives do. Unfortunately our young women are discovering that their so called sexual liberation is like a city taking down its walls while the barbarians are camped outside.
Yes, I'm sure women long once again for the days when they were chattel to be traded.
I suspect few would - although plenty convert to Islam even in the UK.
The issue is whether women are happier and safer than in the bad old days. Other than in the wealthy elite and upper middle classes I suspect many are not.
This should kill Trump. I have a feeling though that it won't and the USA are about to discover that a lot of people, both men and women are little different from their medieval, counterparts and all 50 years of progressive social engineering has done is force them to keep their views underground while seethe with resentment at having to do so.
The progressives threw Christianity and its moral code under the bus and tried to replace it with one that was more authoritarian and less understanding of the best and worst of human nature. The result is behaviour like Trumps and someone like him being in the last two for president. If he dosent win, someone far worse will win before too long.
There have been people like Trump since time immemorial. All that has happened over the last 50 years is that it has become less acceptable for them to be so brazen about it. Most men do not speak about or think about women in the way that Trump does, even the serial adulterers. I have been out on the lash plenty of times, I have been in plenty of dressing rooms, heard a lot of bawdy and frankly unpleasant talk - I have engaged in it myself, I am sure - but the only man who I have ever heard speak about his daughter in a sexual way is Trump. He clearly has issues.
I think that what most of us would consider to be character flaws are the kinds of traits that help propel people into positions of leadership, and then they're in a position where they can satisfy their urges.
Trump is disgusting, for sure. I actually think that 50 years ago, he could not have got away with being so brazen about it.
The behaviour of JFK was far worse than anything Trump could even imagine but if he boasted about it (and he almost certainly did) he did not do it on camera and "civilised" society didn't talk about such things. I think we have made a lot of progress in female equality and respect in those 50 years and Trump seems a throw back to an unhappier time.
In a way, that's my point. JFK could brag about his behaviour to friends, and enjoy shocking Macmillan over it, but had he said the things that Trump publicly that Trump has said, he'd never have got his party's nomination. Celebrity culture and reality TV have normalised the behaviour of people like Trump.
If he had said them publicly, would they have been reported? I am not so sure.
You seem to be suggesting that religions and societies that seek to keep men and women apart, and which assign them different roles, have it right.
What is right is what works alas.
Civilisation pretends that we are on a higher plane than base animals and seeks to hide and supress animal behaviour. From going to the toilet behind closed doors to elaborate eating rituals with plates, napkins and knives and forks to sexual acts being private and the sort of sexual behaviour dogs engage with suppressed.
Alas the veneer is very thin and the base instincts remain - just as domestic dogs left to roam loose revert to a pack of wolves.
The progressive folly is to think that this isnt so and base instinct can be bred or educated away.
So it's her fault we voted to LEAVE, not say, Cameron's botched renegotiation, or Labour's far from convincing support for Remain?
Glad we cleared that up.....
It was her choice to interpret the vote as a mandate for the HARDEST Brexit possible, with added Xenophobia on top
The Ashcroft poll showed that people voted to LEAVE because of 1) Sovereignty and 2) Immigration. Which is exactly what May set out in her speech.
Leaving the EU was thought more likely to bring about a better immigration system, improved border controls, a fairer welfare system, better quality of life, and the ability to control our own laws
Sorry, this false dichotomy between 'Soft' and 'Hard' Brexit is really about 'staying in' vs 'coming out' - and the people voted to 'come out'.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
The people have spoken, the barstewards, now make the best of it.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
If Sindy had gone the other way I would have felt exactly the same, no doubt pointing out every calamity which fell upon Scotland demonstrated how people got it wrong but doing so because I had lost a very important part of my sense of self. Would I have come to terms eventually? It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than this.
David, no different from now as you wonder at Scotland going in a downward spiral. We will never improve when we are an afterthought getting crumbs from someone elses table. Unable to make any decision , we are just told what we are to do and have to bow and scrape and get on with it.
It doesn't have to be that way Malcolm. We have plenty of autonomy, plenty of control and say over our own affairs and plenty of opportunities to build a better future for ourselves. What we absolutely need to stop is having a political class obsessed with constitutional structures to the exclusion of almost all else as we have had almost 40 years now.
We desperately need politicians focussed on growth, education, training, investment, infrastructure and getting the best value possible for our public sector spend. And we are so far away from this it makes me despair. The irony is that succeeding in these areas is the only way we will ever have a viable Scotland capable of standing on its own 2 feet if it so chooses.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
This should kill Trump. I have a feeling though that it won't and the USA are about to discover that a lot of people, both men and women are little different from their medieval, counterparts and all 50 years of progressive social engineering has done is force them to keep their views underground while seethe with resentment at having to do so.
The progressives threw Christianity and its moral code under the bus and tried to replace it with one that was more authoritarian and less understanding of the best and worst of human nature. The result is behaviour like Trumps and someone like him being in the last two for president. If he dosent win, someone far worse will win before too long.
There have been people like Trump since time immemorial. All that has happened over the last 50 years is that it has become less acceptable for them to be so brazen about it. Most men do not speak about or think about women in the way that Trump does, even the serial adulterers. I have been out on the lash plenty of times, I have been in plenty of dressing rooms, heard a lot of bawdy and frankly unpleasant talk - I have engaged in it myself, I am sure - but the only man who I have ever heard speak about his daughter in a sexual way is Trump. He clearly has issues.
I think that what most of us would consider to be character flaws are the kinds of traits that help propel people into positions of leadership, and then they're in a position where they can satisfy their urges.
Trump is disgusting, for sure. I actually think that 50 years ago, he could not have got away with being so brazen about it.
The behaviour of JFK was far worse than anything Trump could even imagine but if he boasted about it (and he almost certainly did) he did not do it on camera and "civilised" society didn't talk about such things. I think we have made a lot of progress in female equality and respect in those 50 years and Trump seems a throw back to an unhappier time.
In a way, that's my point. JFK could brag about his behaviour to friends, and enjoy shocking Macmillan over it, but had he said the things that Trump publicly that Trump has said, he'd never have got his party's nomination. Celebrity culture and reality TV have normalised the behaviour of people like Trump.
JFK had the advantage that there were fewer cameras. Today nearly everyone has one on their phone.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
Whilst I do think a small minority of Remain voters are clapping their hands with glee at any prospect of bad news, the vast majority have simply accepted the referendum result and want the best deal between the UK and EU.
However, this isn't a one way street. We've had the woeful misreporting of a murder of a Polish man attributed to the vote, a rise in reported hate crimes [stupid term] but no rise in successful prosecutions, and general doom-mongering.
There's a risk that the more zealous elements on either side proclaim Leavers to be racists and Remainers to be traitors. Again, slightly reminiscent of the intra-city conflicts between those supporting democracy and oligarchy during the Peloponnesian War.
The vast, vast majority of Remain voters are patriots who accept a democratic decision has been reached. Even Vince Cable seems to be in this group.
Really, the argument now is between Hard Brexit, and Harder Brexit. (And soon Brexit With a Vengence.)
The problem is that the minority are so damn noisy.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
I know I would have. I was physically ill the night of the referendum, probably a coincidence, but I would have been hugely emotionally affected.
It was honestly one of the stressful nights of my life and I had been at polling stations from 7am to getting turnout figures at closing and knocking up most of the afternoon and evening. I have never worked so hard for anything political or cared so much.
By comparison I didn't care that much about the EU. I thought it was heading in the wrong direction and it was in our interests to make our own way sooner or later even if that caused some short term turbulence, which always seemed likely. But if it had not happened this year it seemed inevitable that it would happen in the next 10 and I was not that fussed about waiting.
Yep, the independence referendum was far more stressful than the EU. If that had gone the other way, I would have felt that I had lost a part of myself. The EU referendum was much more abstract. Funnily enough, though, if there were a second indy referendum I don't think I would be that engaged with it. So much has changed over the last two years that in many ways the break up of the UK would just seem like the final, inevitable act of the drama.
Again that nails my own thoughts exactly. The week before #indyref I was out walking with a view of Scotland and actually cried. The sense of impending bereavement was immense. I fell a bit of this with with my European Citizenship but it's nowhere near as powerful. However now in #indyref2 I would be neutral. I wouldn't welcome or wish for the death of Britain. It would be a tragedy. But it would feel like the final act of a tragedy already in play and doomed to reach that conclusion. The sense that both my europeaness and Britishness and now unraveling is why I feel so strongly.
Both of you have a diminished sense of being British and feel less in tune with your countrymen after the referendum. I can imagine how much that hurts and genuinely hope it gets better without in any way seeking to belittle the sense of loss.
It was obvious before the referendum that appealing to the British people's sense of being European was a non-starter, because the vast majority of British people don't have one (at least, not a significant one). This is why BSE couldn't campaign for Remain, they had to campaign against Leave. And that, in turn, is why they lost.
Beautifully crafted editorial in today's Daily Mail calling Remain voters " the enemy within ". Of course when you reread it in outrage it never quite says that explicitly. It's beautifully written to provide plausible deniability but the psychological effect is clear. They call remain voters " the enemy within ". Interesting Zeitgeist.
embittered Tory Remainers led by ex-chancellor George Osborne are already threatening to subvert the referendum result in the Commons.
is there any other type of Remainer than "embittered"
Quite a few have accepted the verdict & moved on.
The people have spoken, the barstewards, now make the best of it.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
If Sindy had gone the other way I would have felt exactly the same, no doubt pointing out every calamity which fell upon Scotland demonstrated how people got it wrong but doing so because I had lost a very important part of my sense of self. Would I have come to terms eventually? It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than this.
David, no different from now as you wonder at Scotland going in a downward spiral. We will never improve when we are an afterthought getting crumbs from someone elses table. Unable to make any decision , we are just told what we are to do and have to bow and scrape and get on with it.
The Scottish Government has plenty of powers to make decisions, but you seem to be confused by the SNP's unwillingness to make any decision lest it move the dream of secession further away.
#2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
I have sympathy with all your arguments except this one. It seems you seek to deny these people agency, yes, they might be stupid and/or misguided, but they have as much right to make those decisions about their lives and to live with the consequences as you have. The alternative is disgustingly patronising and paternalist, to say that they are too stupid to know what they are doing and should defer this decision about a key aspect of their life and their country to their social or intellectual betters.
The people have spoken, the barstewards, now make the best of it.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
If Sindy had gone the other way I would have felt exactly the same, no doubt pointing out every calamity which fell upon Scotland demonstrated how people got it wrong but doing so because I had lost a very important part of my sense of self. Would I have come to terms eventually? It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than this.
David, no different from now as you wonder at Scotland going in a downward spiral. We will never improve when we are an afterthought getting crumbs from someone elses table. Unable to make any decision , we are just told what we are to do and have to bow and scrape and get on with it.
It doesn't have to be that way Malcolm. We have plenty of autonomy, plenty of control and say over our own affairs and plenty of opportunities to build a better future for ourselves. What we absolutely need to stop is having a political class obsessed with constitutional structures to the exclusion of almost all else as we have had almost 40 years now.
We desperately need politicians focussed on growth, education, training, investment, infrastructure and getting the best value possible for our public sector spend. And we are so far away from this it makes me despair. The irony is that succeeding in these areas is the only way we will ever have a viable Scotland capable of standing on its own 2 feet if it so chooses.
David, we cannot change anything meaningful to alter the woes in Scotland. We can never prosper whilst we are tied to policies that suit the much bigger population in south England. It can never be suitable for us to be an afterthought to the policies they rightly make to suit London and south east. When you give your children pocket money they just fritter it away on sweets, why would they have to do anything else.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
50 to 54 is an 8% increase. 79 to 84 is a 6.3% increase...
Beautifully crafted editorial in today's Daily Mail calling Remain voters " the enemy within ". Of course when you reread it in outrage it never quite says that explicitly. It's beautifully written to provide plausible deniability but the psychological effect is clear. They call remain voters " the enemy within ". Interesting Zeitgeist.
embittered Tory Remainers led by ex-chancellor George Osborne are already threatening to subvert the referendum result in the Commons.
is there any other type of Remainer than "embittered"
Quite a few have accepted the verdict & moved on.
The people have spoken, the barstewards, now make the best of it.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
If Sindy had gone the other way I would have felt exactly the same, no doubt pointing out every calamity which fell upon Scotland demonstrated how people got it wrong but doing so because I had lost a very important part of my sense of self. Would I have come to terms eventually? It would have taken a hell of a lot longer than this.
David, no different from now as you wonder at Scotland going in a downward spiral. We will never improve when we are an afterthought getting crumbs from someone elses table. Unable to make any decision , we are just told what we are to do and have to bow and scrape and get on with it.
The Scottish Government has plenty of powers to make decisions, but you seem to be confused by the SNP's unwillingness to make any decision lest it move the dream of secession further away.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
50 to 54 is an 8% increase. 79 to 84 is a 6.3% increase...
numbskull, they live 30 more years you stupid cretinous halfwitted moronic dumpling, does that make it a bit clearer.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
50 to 54 is an 8% increase. 79 to 84 is a 6.3% increase...
numbskull, they live 30 more years you stupid cretinous halfwitted moronic dumpling, does that make it a bit clearer.
I kinda get where these remainers are coming from. The battlefield is economic but that is not what this is about. It is about their vision of Britain. They saw a Britain that formed an important part of the EU, that was ever more European in its outlook and behaviour and thought that this was a good and civilising thing. They now fear an introverted Britain blocking itself off from the rest of the world with its own slightly odd obsessions. It is how you see yourself and your country and the economic news good or bad are just tools for the argument.
Not necessarily. If LEAVE had promised me £1=$2USD and £1=1.5EUR I would have cheerfully stood on street corners and loudly agitated for LEAVE. Concerns about money are not necessarily proxies for something else.
@Scott_P The problem is May is right. The Leave win was a clear statement huge reductions in immigration is the No 1 socio economic priority for Britain. A decisive group of swing voters think it will make them better off socio economically. The fact they are deluded is neither here nor there. We're a democracy and we asked voters in a referendum to make a clear choice on an intelligible question. What else could any new PM do ?
Clear events may over take the referendum decision in due course. But unless they do were stuck with it.
The choice was always between hard Brexit (as hard as the French and the Eurocrats are prepared to make it without too much damage to themselves) and continued attachment to the increasingly unsatisfactory EU.
1975 was the time to vote NO. I did, and was told off rather sternly by my Tory acquaintances.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
But the SNP could increase income tax rates and alter how much money flows to the Scottish government.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
Really, the argument now is between Hard Brexit, and Harder Brexit. (And soon Brexit With a Vengence.)
I don't think it's even about the EU any more. Everything about EU immigration and EU trade is also true of relations with the rest of the world. It's Globalist Brexit vs Sakoku Brexit.
#2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
I have sympathy with all your arguments except this one. It seems you seek to deny these people agency, yes, they might be stupid and/or misguided, but they have as much right to make those decisions about their lives and to live with the consequences as you have. The alternative is disgustingly patronising and paternalist, to say that they are too stupid to know what they are doing and should defer this decision about a key aspect of their life and their country to their social or intellectual betters.
People get the consequences they voted for and deserve. In the literal sense that has to be true in a democracy. But if you KNOW those consequences will be bad and you also know that those voting for them didn't know they would they would be bad for them, you want to be sympathetic and not just say, Sod you!
@Scott_P The problem is May is right. The Leave win was a clear statement huge reductions in immigration is the No 1 socio economic priority for Britain. A decisive group of swing voters think it will make them better off socio economically. The fact they are deluded is neither here nor there. We're a democracy and we asked voters in a referendum to make a clear choice on an intelligible question. What else could any new PM do ?
Clear events may over take the referendum decision in due course. But unless they do were stuck with it.
Sorry that doesn't wash. Its not a groups of swing voters, its the majority of the population at large.
#2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
I have sympathy with all your arguments except this one. It seems you seek to deny these people agency, yes, they might be stupid and/or misguided, but they have as much right to make those decisions about their lives and to live with the consequences as you have. The alternative is disgustingly patronising and paternalist, to say that they are too stupid to know what they are doing and should defer this decision about a key aspect of their life and their country to their social or intellectual betters.
People get the consequences they voted for and deserve. In the literal sense that has to be true in a democracy. But if you KNOW those consequences will be bad and you also know that those voting for them didn't know they would they would be bad for them, you want to be sympathetic and not just say, Sod you!
But you don't KNOW, you SUSPECT, and that isn't sufficient excuse to deny them agency in determining their own lives.
Really, the argument now is between Hard Brexit, and Harder Brexit. (And soon Brexit With a Vengence.)
I don't think it's even about the EU any more. Everything about EU immigration and EU trade is also true of relations with the rest of the world. It's Globalist Brexit vs Sakoku Brexit.
Spoiler: You're getting Sakoku Brexit.
I don't think that's true, although I can see why from your position several thousand miles away you think it is.
The reason the Vote Leave slogan worked was that it really chimed with people's feelings: that not only were they powerless individually but they could only elect powerless governments. Regardless of what gets said at party conferences, I'd expect May to seek improved relations with the rest of the world now we no longer need to discriminate against them.
''The problem is May is right. The Leave win was a clear statement huge reductions in immigration is the No 1 socio economic priority for Britain.''
Remainers wrongly represent the leave case number 3,628.
As a leaver, I f8cking love immigrants. LOVE them. Top people. All I want is a better system to weed out the petty criminals, health tourists, thugs, people traffickers, drug smugglers, benefit scammers gang masters, hate preachers etc. that go with the really fantastic people who have come to our country.
We have quite enough wrong uns of our own, thank you.
Many remainers don;t see the downside of immigration because they are generally too well off and live in nice places. I don;t see it myself because I live in a nice place.
#2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
I have sympathy with all your arguments except this one. It seems you seek to deny these people agency, yes, they might be stupid and/or misguided, but they have as much right to make those decisions about their lives and to live with the consequences as you have. The alternative is disgustingly patronising and paternalist, to say that they are too stupid to know what they are doing and should defer this decision about a key aspect of their life and their country to their social or intellectual betters.
People get the consequences they voted for and deserve. In the literal sense that has to be true in a democracy. But if you KNOW those consequences will be bad and you also know that those voting for them didn't know they would they would be bad for them, you want to be sympathetic and not just say, Sod you!
But you don't KNOW, you SUSPECT, and that isn't sufficient excuse to deny them agency in determining their own lives.
I know. Also I am not denying them agency. I am sympathetic to them because they have problems that no-one is helping them to solve.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
@Scott_P The problem is May is right. The Leave win was a clear statement huge reductions in immigration is the No 1 socio economic priority for Britain. A decisive group of swing voters think it will make them better off socio economically. The fact they are deluded is neither here nor there. We're a democracy and we asked voters in a referendum to make a clear choice on an intelligible question. What else could any new PM do ?
Clear events may over take the referendum decision in due course. But unless they do were stuck with it.
Sorry that doesn't wash. Its not a groups of swing voters, its the majority of the population at large.
"77 per cent of people want immigration reduced “a little” or “a lot”, with 56 per cent wanting a large reduction."
A difficult argument because in the 1960s probably 75% of the population believed in hanging murderers. Today as far as I'm aware it's fallen to well below 50%.
Without 'enlightened' people in government, like Roy Jenkins, capital punishment would have lasted several more decades and many innocent people would have been killed including the B'ham pub bombers.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
I agree. Holyrood is a waste of money. It should be closed and demolished.
''The problem is May is right. The Leave win was a clear statement huge reductions in immigration is the No 1 socio economic priority for Britain.''
Remainers wrongly represent the leave case number 3,628.
As a leaver, I f8cking love immigrants. LOVE them. Top people. All I want is a better system to weed out the petty criminals, health tourists, thugs, people traffickers, drug smugglers, benefit scammers gang masters, hate preachers etc. that go with the really fantastic people who have come to our country.
We have quite enough wrong uns of our own, thank you.
Indeed. If people thought that those kinds of people could actually be kicked out, they wouldn't be so keen to restrict the numbers coming in in the first place.
Really, the argument now is between Hard Brexit, and Harder Brexit. (And soon Brexit With a Vengence.)
I don't think it's even about the EU any more. Everything about EU immigration and EU trade is also true of relations with the rest of the world. It's Globalist Brexit vs Sakoku Brexit.
Spoiler: You're getting Sakoku Brexit.
I don't think that's true, although I can see why from your position several thousand miles away you think it is.
The reason the Vote Leave slogan worked was that it really chimed with people's feelings: that not only were they powerless individually but they could only elect powerless governments. Regardless of what gets said at party conferences, I'd expect May to seek improved relations with the rest of the world now we no longer need to discriminate against them.
That was the claim during the referendum; But the voters don't want immigration. It's not that they don't want Polish immigration. They don't want immigration.
And if you don't want your domestic government overruled by a court in Luxembourg, you're probably not going to be keen on Investor-State Dispute Settlement courts either.
Everything coming out of the Conservative conference speeches says Sakoku, and nothing says Globalism.
#2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
I have sympathy with all your arguments except this one. It seems you seek to deny these people agency, yes, they might be stupid and/or misguided, but they have as much right to make those decisions about their lives and to live with the consequences as you have. The alternative is disgustingly patronising and paternalist, to say that they are too stupid to know what they are doing and should defer this decision about a key aspect of their life and their country to their social or intellectual betters.
I am struggling to see how the sentence you selected implies that Mr Submarine believes that Leave voters should have been denied agency. No-one is denying anyone the right to vote and to make decisions. But that does not mean you have to agree with the decisions that are taken. It is perfectly possible to believe in the validity of a democratic vote and the foolishness of the outcome all at the same time. Put another way, Nissan workers in Sunderland obviously and absolutely had the right to vote for Leave, even if the consequence of that vote is that they will end up losing their jobs.
Really, the argument now is between Hard Brexit, and Harder Brexit. (And soon Brexit With a Vengence.)
I don't think it's even about the EU any more. Everything about EU immigration and EU trade is also true of relations with the rest of the world. It's Globalist Brexit vs Sakoku Brexit.
Spoiler: You're getting Sakoku Brexit.
I don't think that's true, although I can see why from your position several thousand miles away you think it is.
The reason the Vote Leave slogan worked was that it really chimed with people's feelings: that not only were they powerless individually but they could only elect powerless governments. Regardless of what gets said at party conferences, I'd expect May to seek improved relations with the rest of the world now we no longer need to discriminate against them.
That was the claim during the referendum; But the voters don't want immigration. It's not that they don't want Polish immigration. They don't want immigration.
And if you don't want your domestic government overruled by a court in Luxembourg, you're probably not going to be keen on Investor-State Dispute Settlement courts either.
Everything coming out of the Conservative conference speeches says Sakoku, and nothing says Globalism.
To your first point: see my post immediately preceding it.
To your third point: you are making the error of believing what comes out of a party conference.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
50 to 54 is an 8% increase. 79 to 84 is a 6.3% increase...
numbskull, they live 30 more years you stupid cretinous halfwitted moronic dumpling, does that make it a bit clearer.
Average life expectancy, male born 2012 UK: 78.8 Scotland: 76.6
the PM who made everyone poorer because she hates foreigners.
So it's her fault we voted to LEAVE, not say, Cameron's botched renegotiation, or Labour's far from convincing support for Remain?
Glad we cleared that up.....
It's May that has interpreted the result as such and made the post ref mood music all about keeping foreigners out. She had other ways to play it but that was what she chose.
And other countries are noticing too. I fear our much haunted soft power will be severely damaged by the insular turn of politics.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
I know it wouldn't be your intention SO, because you're one of the most thoughtful Remainers and Social Democrats that I see on here, but you can surely understand just how patronising that sounds? Even when true, it sounds like the metropolitan elite suggesting that voters restrict their own power and take falling or stagnant living standards on the chin at the same time. Oh, and allow that same metropolitan elite to hide behind Strasbourg when discussions on deporting hateful preachers and criminals are held.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
I actually think the dislike directed at Hillary Clinton may be similar to that levelled against Merkel who, equally lacking charm, struggled to get elected, and lost initially against the very tainted Schroder.
If Hillary proves to be a competent technocratic president, then her popularity may well rise.
Theresa May, equally suffering from a charisma bypass, is doing well at the minute because she is perceived as competent.
Corbyn, who appears to be a reasonably likeable fellow, struggles obviously on the competent front.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
I agree. Holyrood is a waste of money. It should be closed and demolished.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
But the SNP could increase income tax rates and alter how much money flows to the Scottish government.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Which Tory PMs would they be then? Just Cameron with his neoliberalist Osbornite chumocracy. I get the feeling May and Hammond bridled under that. A lot. But they have the last laugh as Cameron exited stage left, followed by the spectre of a bear of his own creation....
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
I know it wouldn't be your intention SO, because you're one of the most thoughtful Remainers and Social Democrats that I see on here, but you can surely understand just how patronising that sounds? Even when true, it sounds like the metropolitan elite suggesting that voters restrict their own power and take falling or stagnant living standards on the chin at the same time. Oh, and allow that same metropolitan elite to hide behind Strasbourg when discussions on deporting hateful preachers and criminals are held.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
No, I don't see how it is patronising to say that those likely to be most negatively affected by leaving the EU are those who have already been most negatively affected by globalisation. What gave Leave voters their power was the binary Yes or No of a referendum. That is not how this country is run, though. It is run by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% or so of voters in the most efficient way.
To your third point: you are making the error of believing what comes out of a party conference.
Normally I wouldn't take much notice of a party conference, but this is a special case: Previously there was complete confusion about the direction the government would be taking, and everyone was waiting for the government's lead.
What was said at that party conference will be affecting government all the way down; Government departments are in a permanent state of turf war, and they will always attempt to tune their proposals to be in line in with the zeitgeist so that the government will increase their funding and grow their responsibility. When there's a general consensus about the direction they should be following, they may dismiss a conference speech as mere politics, but when there's a vacuum, they will follow the government's lead.
The same is true of business: If you need to be based in a globalist country with free trade and reasonably free movement, you will start adjusting now. The markets clearly do believe that what was said at the conference represents an actual announcement of direction, otherwise it wouldn't have moved the pound.
I actually think the dislike directed at Hillary Clinton may be similar to that levelled against Merkel who, equally lacking charm, struggled to get elected, and lost initially against the very tainted Schroder.
If Hillary proves to be a competent technocratic president, then her popularity may well rise.
Theresa May, equally suffering from a charisma bypass, is doing well at the minute because she is perceived as competent.
Corbyn, who appears to be a reasonably likeable fellow, struggles obviously on the competent front.
I actually think the dislike directed at Hillary Clinton may be similar to that levelled against Merkel who, equally lacking charm, struggled to get elected, and lost initially against the very tainted Schroder.
If Hillary proves to be a competent technocratic president, then her popularity may well rise.
Theresa May, equally suffering from a charisma bypass, is doing well at the minute because she is perceived as competent.
Corbyn, who appears to be a reasonably likeable fellow, struggles obviously on the competent front.
To be fair Tyson, you have something there re Merkel, Clinton and May.
But people generally dislike Corbyn because he is an unreconstituted socialist with questionable friends and little apparent concept of national patriotism.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
But the SNP could increase income tax rates and alter how much money flows to the Scottish government.
Unless they control all tax they control no tax.
A typical SNP excuse of blaming another govt. It is the same as saying that the UK govt inside the EU has no control on tax because the EU decides some taxes (e.g. customs taxes....).
To your third point: you are making the error of believing what comes out of a party conference.
Normally I wouldn't take much notice of a party conference, but this is a special case
It's not, really.
The only thing we can safely take out of it is that May is prepared to walk away from the negotiations in a way that Cameron wasn't - and therefore she has at least a chance of getting a better result than he did.
Being prepared to walk away without a deal doesn't mean determined to walk away without a deal: if she wanted to do that she'd have triggered A50 by now.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! coming.
me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
I know it wouldn't be your intention SO, because you're one of the most thoughtful Remainers and Social Democrats that I see on here, but you can surely understand just how patronising that sounds? Even when true, it sounds like the metropolitan elite suggesting that voters restrict their own power and take falling or stagnant living standards on the chin at the same time. Oh, and allow that same metropolitan elite to hide behind Strasbourg when discussions on deporting hateful preachers and criminals are held.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
No, I don't see how it is patronising to say that those likely to be most negatively affected by leaving the EU are those who have already been most negatively affected by globalisation. What gave Leave voters their power was the binary Yes or No of a referendum. That is not how this country is run, though. It is run by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% or so of voters in the most efficient way.
It sounds patronising and self interested because it aligns with the social bias and economic interests of the metropolitan elite who also have a monopoly on power (albeit in varying shades of governing party).
It says 'this awful situation you're in is the best you're going to get' - meanwhile the 1% continue to enrich themselves and force upon the same struggling groups liberal social policy that often sticks in the craw.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
I don't think I could express my own sense of frustration better Yellow. I have such a sense of foreboding for the future as the UK becomes poorer and isolated in a globalised world. The world's stock market is simply valuing the UK post Brexit. It is a sign of things to come. I'll be alright, but it's those middle earners and below- 70-80% of the population that can look to the future with failing public services, health services, increasing anger against foreigners, fragmentation in communities. The prospects for the UK within this bleak, nihilistic, hard Brexit climate are very poor indeed.
Brexit was such a monumental, catastrophic mistake for the UK.
Confound you, David Herdson! I was putting together a piece on this very subject.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both older than their respective parties' nominees in 2000 are today. Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are both older than their respective party leaders at the 2001 general election are today.
Meanwhile, last year only one MP elected in mainland Britain in 2015 had a party leader who was aged over 50, and even that party leader had only just passed that milestone.
In Britain at least, this is a sudden change.
A sudden change - or a reversion to the norm, after the shiny smily youngness of Blair and Cameron proved less than satisfying?
A sudden change. If Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May contest a 2020 election, they will have the oldest combined age of the two main party leaders at an election since Churchill and Attlee.
Yeah, but the population has aged a lot since Churchill and Attlee. Apples and oranges....
Life expectancy has improved a lot too - a baby boy born in 1945 had an average life expectancy of 63 - today its 79.......
Not in Glasgow.
That Glasgow life expectancy 'fact' is a bit misleading - the ward it refers to had a large hostel for drug addicts & derelicts who, not unsurprisingly tend to die young, and skews the stats.
Yes, Glasgow life expectancy is lower than it should be - even controlling for smoking, drinking & other factors - but it has improved - by 4 years in the last 20, while the UK has improved by 5.
The great benefit of the union , Better Together my arse. Everything funnelled south and how it shows. 4 on to 50 against 5 on to 79............ equality in motion.
But Malcolm, Health is fully devolved - why is the SNP failing Scotland?
The money is not , power devolved is power retained. A dog on a leash is limited to where it can go.
But the SNP could increase income tax rates and alter how much money flows to the Scottish government.
@Scott_P The problem is May is right. The Leave win was a clear statement huge reductions in immigration is the No 1 socio economic priority for Britain. A decisive group of swing voters think it will make them better off socio economically. The fact they are deluded is neither here nor there. We're a democracy and we asked voters in a referendum to make a clear choice on an intelligible question. What else could any new PM do ?
Clear events may over take the referendum decision in due course. But unless they do were stuck with it.
Sorry that doesn't wash. Its not a groups of swing voters, its the majority of the population at large.
"77 per cent of people want immigration reduced “a little” or “a lot”, with 56 per cent wanting a large reduction."
A difficult argument because in the 1960s probably 75% of the population believed in hanging murderers. Today as far as I'm aware it's fallen to well below 50%.
Without 'enlightened' people in government, like Roy Jenkins, capital punishment would have lasted several more decades and many innocent people would have been killed including the B'ham pub bombers.
"Enlightened" people in power are just as capable of screwing up as the next person.
Bet on Grosjean not to be classified due to lacking faith in the Haas car, as well as the circuit having close barriers and gravel traps (and being tight).
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. The Conservatives (or UKIP) simply have to better for such voters than Labour is, which is why so many of them vote Conservative (or UKIP).
I remember a time in recent history when the guardian wing of the media & right on celebs thought they were brilliant & assange a hero. Looking a bit foolish these days.
@mortimer@indigido Clearly if I believe people have used their agency against their own best interests that's not the same as arguing they shouldn't have agency. It's at best a non sequitur or at worst a misrepresentation of what I said.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Which Tory PMs would they be then? Just Cameron with his neoliberalist Osbornite chumocracy. I get the feeling May and Hammond bridled under that. A lot. But they have the last laugh as Cameron exited stage left, followed by the spectre of a bear of his own creation....
Mrs Thatcher is the obvious one, who brought in the Single Market, and smashed the traditional industries of the country, whether the Coal of Wales, the steel of the North East or the rag trade of Leicester.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! coming.
me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's are not going to change either.
I know it wouldn't be your intention SO, because you're one of the most thoughtful Remainers and Social Democrats that I see on here, but you can surely understand just how patronising that sounds? Even when true, it sounds like the metropolitan elite suggesting that voters restrict their own power and take falling or stagnant living standards on the chin at the same time. Oh, and allow that same metropolitan elite to hide behind Strasbourg when discussions on deporting hateful preachers and criminals are held.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
No, I don't see how it is patronising to say that those likely to be most negatively affected by leaving the EU are those who have already been most negatively affected by globalisation. What gave Leave voters their power was the binary Yes or No of a referendum. That is not how this country is run, though. It is run by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% or so of voters in the most efficient way.
It sounds patronising and self interested because it aligns with the social bias and economic interests of the metropolitan elite who also have a monopoly on power (albeit in varying shades of governing party).
It says 'this awful situation you're in is the best you're going to get' - meanwhile the 1% continue to enrich themselves and force upon the same struggling groups liberal social policy that often sticks in the craw.
No, it doesn't say that - that's what you want it to say. It's actually saying that the elite in this country is totally embedded and will not change one iota as a result of the referendum. And it is saying that those who will be most adversely affected by Leave are those who have been mostly adversely affected by globalisation.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
I don't think I could express my own sense of frustration better Yellow. I have such a sense of foreboding for the future as the UK becomes poorer and isolated in a globalised world. The world's stock market is simply valuing the UK post Brexit. It is a sign of things to come. I'll be alright, but it's those middle earners and below- 70-80% of the population that can look to the future with failing public services, health services, increasing anger against foreigners, fragmentation in communities. The prospects for the UK within this bleak, nihilistic, hard Brexit climate are very poor indeed.
Brexit was such a monumental, catastrophic mistake for the UK.
The problem with this analysis is that it presupposes that we are, as a people, unusually incapable of successful self-government.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
I don't think I could express my own sense of frustration better Yellow. I have such a sense of foreboding for the future as the UK becomes poorer and isolated in a globalised world. The world's stock market is simply valuing the UK post Brexit. It is a sign of things to come. I'll be alright, but it's those middle earners and below- 70-80% of the population that can look to the future with failing public services, health services, increasing anger against foreigners, fragmentation in communities. The prospects for the UK within this bleak, nihilistic, hard Brexit climate are very poor indeed.
Brexit was such a monumental, catastrophic mistake for the UK.
Erm, Tyson me old mucker, we already have failing public services, fragmentation in communities And increasing anger against foreigners. This has been caused by 30+ years of a neo-liberalist economic and social consensus disempowerinf the voters.
The opportunity to change this lay with the metropolitan elite in the early noughties - by doing things like looking long and hard at A8 enlargement, the integration of different groups into the national demos and the fair contribution of big corporations to society. It was dodged; the vote in 2016 was the safety valve before revolution - like nineteenth and twentieth century political and social reform before it, Brexit is the medicine that we must take to avoid revolution.
I actually think the dislike directed at Hillary Clinton may be similar to that levelled against Merkel who, equally lacking charm, struggled to get elected, and lost initially against the very tainted Schroder.
If Hillary proves to be a competent technocratic president, then her popularity may well rise.
Theresa May, equally suffering from a charisma bypass, is doing well at the minute because she is perceived as competent.
Corbyn, who appears to be a reasonably likeable fellow, struggles obviously on the competent front.
I actually think the dislike directed at Hillary Clinton may be similar to that levelled against Merkel who, equally lacking charm, struggled to get elected, and lost initially against the very tainted Schroder.
If Hillary proves to be a competent technocratic president, then her popularity may well rise.
Theresa May, equally suffering from a charisma bypass, is doing well at the minute because she is perceived as competent.
Corbyn, who appears to be a reasonably likeable fellow, struggles obviously on the competent front.
To be fair Tyson, you have something there re Merkel, Clinton and May.
But people generally dislike Corbyn because he is an unreconstituted socialist with questionable friends and little apparent concept of national patriotism.
A charming, firebrand, handsome, articulate, charismatic, hard core, unreconstructed socialist could well offer an electoral appeal for the UK in these times. The issue is there aren't any, and since Corbyn has neither of those qualities, the UK isn't going to lurch left any time soon.
I think these women, Merkel, May and Clinton are tough, they've had to be and that toughness transfers well into competence. So, they struggle initially to get elected, but once in power they thrive.
@Edmundintokyo Yes. Leave was an unholy alliance of voting blocks. Genuine anti Europeans are now saying it wasn't also a rejection off globalisation in general. It was. Of course Remain was also an unholy alliance of competing voting blocks. But that doesn't matter anymore because we lost.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. The Conservatives (or UKIP) simply have to better for such voters than Labour is, which is why so many of them vote Conservative (or UKIP).
The Tories will look after the WWC in much the same way my cat looks after a mouse.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
I don't think I could express my own sense of frustration better Yellow. I have such a sense of foreboding for the future as the UK becomes poorer and isolated in a globalised world. The world's stock market is simply valuing the UK post Brexit. It is a sign of things to come. I'll be alright, but it's those middle earners and below- 70-80% of the population that can look to the future with failing public services, health services, increasing anger against foreigners, fragmentation in communities. The prospects for the UK within this bleak, nihilistic, hard Brexit climate are very poor indeed.
Brexit was such a monumental, catastrophic mistake for the UK.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. The Conservatives (or UKIP) simply have to better for such voters than Labour is, which is why so many of them vote Conservative (or UKIP).
Yep, that's the system we have. And the referendum will not change one little part of that. With Labour unelectable, if the Tories look after pensioners and people who own their homes they will continue to hold power for the foreseeable future.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Which Tory PMs would they be then? Just Cameron with his neoliberalist Osbornite chumocracy. I get the feeling May and Hammond bridled under that. A lot. But they have the last laugh as Cameron exited stage left, followed by the spectre of a bear of his own creation....
Mrs Thatcher is the obvious one, who brought in the Single Market, and smashed the traditional industries of the country, whether the Coal of Wales, the steel of the North East or the rag trade of Leicester.
I think you mean "recognised that they were doomed and tried to move on from them". Or have you forgotten that manufacturing suffered more both before and after her time than during it?
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! coming.
me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's are not going to change either.
I know it wouldn't be your intention SO.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
No, I don't see how it is pat5% or so of voters in the most efficient way.
It sounds patronising and self interested because it aligns with the social bias and economic interests of the metropolitan elite who also have a monopoly on power (albeit in varying shades of governing party).
It says 'this awful situation you're in is the best you're going to get' - meanwhile the 1% continue to enrich themselves and force upon the same struggling groups liberal social policy that often sticks in the craw.
No, it doesn't say that - that's what you want it to say. It's actually saying that the elite in this country is totally embedded and will not change one iota as a result of the referendum. And it is saying that those who will be most adversely affected by Leave are those who have been mostly adversely affected by globalisation.
It's too early to say.
The monied elite will always be there certainly but they've just had their first decent kick in the balls for half a century. They've been told their model for the UK doesnt work. The tectonic plates are moving underneath them and as yet no-one knows in which direction.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Which Tory PMs would they be then? Just Cameron with his neoliberalist Osbornite chumocracy. I get the feeling May and Hammond bridled under that. A lot. But they have the last laugh as Cameron exited stage left, followed by the spectre of a bear of his own creation....
Mrs Thatcher is the obvious one, who brought in the Single Market, and smashed the traditional industries of the country, whether the Coal of Wales, the steel of the North East or the rag trade of Leicester.
Ah if only she'd tackled middle class unions like the BMA at the same time......
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! My support for Remain , a campaign for the status quo led by a Conservative PM, is the most mainstream political activity I've ever undertaken. So I don't feel weirdly estranged from most of my fellow citizens at all. I think my profound pain is based on two things. #1 That this is existential. A narrow majority is removing part of my identity in way no GE result ever has or will. #2 The certain belief that the anti globalising/immigration block of voters is going to be the worst effected by what's coming.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Which Tory PMs would they be then? Just Cameron with his neoliberalist Osbornite chumocracy. I get the feeling May and Hammond bridled under that. A lot. But they have the last laugh as Cameron exited stage left, followed by the spectre of a bear of his own creation....
Mrs Thatcher is the obvious one, who brought in the Single Market, and smashed the traditional industries of the country, whether the Coal of Wales, the steel of the North East or the rag trade of Leicester.
Clearly though, millions of working class people thought the Conservatives *were* governing in their interests. They enjoyed rapid growth in real incomes, and welcomed an end to strikes. That's why the Conservatives won places like Stevenage, Basildon, and Harlow.
@SouthamObserver Again that's brilliantly point. After a life time with my political views being in the 48.1% is vastly more mainstream than I've ever been ! coming.
me.
It's are not going to change either.
I know it wouldn't be your intention SO, because you're one of the most thoughtful Remainers and Social Democrats that I see on here, but you can surely understand just how patronising that sounds? Even when true, it sounds like the metropolitan elite suggesting that voters restrict their own power and take falling or stagnant living standards on the chin at the same time. Oh, and allow that same metropolitan elite to hide behind Strasbourg when discussions on deporting hateful preachers and criminals are held.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
No, I don't see how it is patronising to say that those likely to be most negatively affected by leaving the EU are those who have already been most negatively affected by globalisation. What gave Leave voters their power was the binary Yes or No of a referendum. That is not how this country is run, though. It is run by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% or so of voters in the most efficient way.
It sounds patronising and self interested because it aligns with the social bias and economic interests of the metropolitan elite who also have a monopoly on power (albeit in varying shades of governing party).
It says 'this awful situation you're in is the best you're going to get' - meanwhile the 1% continue to enrich themselves and force upon the same struggling groups liberal social policy that often sticks in the craw.
No, it doesn't say that - that's what you want it to say. It's actually saying that the elite in this country is totally embedded and will not change one iota as a result of the referendum. And it is saying that those who will be most adversely affected by Leave are those who have been mostly adversely affected by globalisation.
That is saying that Leave will be exactly what you think it will be - a failure. It also suggests that you don't think any future politician will take difficult decisions re the elite. They might not, but at least we the voters now have the power to hold them to account for that - for they can no longer hide behind convenient Brussels judgements and policies.
I remember a time in recent history when the guardian wing of the media & right on celebs thought they were brilliant & assange a hero. Looking a bit foolish these days.
Bit like the Trumpers last week trying to assimilate Assange-ism, except being more recent history the foolishness is somewhat more pungent.
My main problem with certain remainers is the conviction leading them away from even questioning the means, the method or the mood music.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
It's not really about lattes, honestly. A lot of us who voted Remain did so out of a conviction that those who would be most adversely affected by leaving the EU would be the ones who have already been most adversely affected by the forces of globalisation. And in leaving what extra power do they have? The government will still be formed by the party best able to put together a coalition of 35% of the voters, and those who control all the levers of the state are not going to change either.
The Tories as protectors of the White Working Class?
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
Which Tory PMs would they be then? Just Cameron with his neoliberalist Osbornite chumocracy. I get the feeling May and Hammond bridled under that. A lot. But they have the last laugh as Cameron exited stage left, followed by the spectre of a bear of his own creation....
Mrs Thatcher is the obvious one, who brought in the Single Market, and smashed the traditional industries of the country, whether the Coal of Wales, the steel of the North East or the rag trade of Leicester.
I think you mean "recognised that they were doomed and tried to move on from them". Or have you forgotten that manufacturing suffered more both before and after her time than during it?
"Recognised that they were doomed and tried to move on"
It doesn't sound like what the Brexit vote was for.
So it's her fault we voted to LEAVE, not say, Cameron's botched renegotiation, or Labour's far from convincing support for Remain?
Glad we cleared that up.....
It was her choice to interpret the vote as a mandate for the HARDEST Brexit possible, with added Xenophobia on top
The Ashcroft poll showed that people voted to LEAVE because of 1) Sovereignty and 2) Immigration. Which is exactly what May set out in her speech.
Leaving the EU was thought more likely to bring about a better immigration system, improved border controls, a fairer welfare system, better quality of life, and the ability to control our own laws
Sorry, this false dichotomy between 'Soft' and 'Hard' Brexit is really about 'staying in' vs 'coming out' - and the people voted to 'come out'.
Somehow, May needs rid of Carney and to control Hammond. 'The enemy within' isn't a bad discription. Carney and other recent appointees are more loyal to 'the international system' than they are to Britain's interests. That much is abundantly clear. The problem (one amongst many) would be that sacking him would undermine confidence and he would relish his role talking down our economy.
Perhaps the best thing would be to change the make up of the MPC so Carney was out-voted.
I suspect he won't - I doubt Mrs May likes the cut of his jib - if he got re-elected as a Tory (questionable) it would be 'back-benches until retirement'....unless a posh public schoolboy takes over....
Comments
I think you can split the hardline EU supporters into EU nationalists who think of themselves as citizens of Europe and 1%ers who support the concentration of power into the hands of people like themselves.
I have sympathy for the 'European Citizens' but none for the 1%ers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-caller-had-a-lewd-tape-of-donald-trump-then-the-race-was-on/2016/10/07/31d74714-8ce5-11e6-875e-2c1bfe943b66_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_trumptape-link1:homepage/story
Having listened to the tape, its the sort of thing insecure braggarts say and have said down the ages......so nothing new there then......I suspect a lot of this is priced in - tho the GOP in full pearl clutching mode is a vision to behold....what may be more damaging is his response.....classic 'look squirrel'......hasn't exactly got 'rising above it' written all over it.....
The issue is whether women are happier and safer than in the bad old days. Other than in the wealthy elite and upper middle classes I suspect many are not.
Civilisation pretends that we are on a higher plane than base animals and seeks to hide and supress animal behaviour. From going to the toilet behind closed doors to elaborate eating rituals with plates, napkins and knives and forks to sexual acts being private and the sort of sexual behaviour dogs engage with suppressed.
Alas the veneer is very thin and the base instincts remain - just as domestic dogs left to roam loose revert to a pack of wolves.
The progressive folly is to think that this isnt so and base instinct can be bred or educated away.
Leaving the EU was thought more likely to bring about a better immigration system, improved border controls, a fairer welfare system, better quality of life, and the ability to control our own laws
Sorry, this false dichotomy between 'Soft' and 'Hard' Brexit is really about 'staying in' vs 'coming out' - and the people voted to 'come out'.
We desperately need politicians focussed on growth, education, training, investment, infrastructure and getting the best value possible for our public sector spend. And we are so far away from this it makes me despair. The irony is that succeeding in these areas is the only way we will ever have a viable Scotland capable of standing on its own 2 feet if it so chooses.
This is where my personal darkness comes from. For the first time in my life I'll have no solidarity with them. I feel sociopathic about it and it's weird. It's a reasoned decision to vote for more globalisation in protest at current globalisation. My lack of sympathy or empathy for the coming consequences frightens me.
Clear events may over take the referendum decision in due course. But unless they do were stuck with it.
1975 was the time to vote NO. I did, and was told off rather sternly by my Tory acquaintances.
Happy to give away the keys to the shop in order to afford a few more Lattes every week and keep power away from those people who don't agree.
Spoiler: You're getting Sakoku Brexit.
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-31/immigration/introduction.aspx
"77 per cent of people want immigration reduced “a little” or “a lot”, with 56 per cent wanting a large reduction."
The reason the Vote Leave slogan worked was that it really chimed with people's feelings: that not only were they powerless individually but they could only elect powerless governments. Regardless of what gets said at party conferences, I'd expect May to seek improved relations with the rest of the world now we no longer need to discriminate against them.
Remainers wrongly represent the leave case number 3,628.
As a leaver, I f8cking love immigrants. LOVE them. Top people. All I want is a better system to weed out the petty criminals, health tourists, thugs, people traffickers, drug smugglers, benefit scammers gang masters, hate preachers etc. that go with the really fantastic people who have come to our country.
We have quite enough wrong uns of our own, thank you.
Many remainers don;t see the downside of immigration because they are generally too well off and live in nice places. I don;t see it myself because I live in a nice place.
Without 'enlightened' people in government, like Roy Jenkins, capital punishment would have lasted several more decades and many innocent people would have been killed including the B'ham pub bombers.
And if you don't want your domestic government overruled by a court in Luxembourg, you're probably not going to be keen on Investor-State Dispute Settlement courts either.
Everything coming out of the Conservative conference speeches says Sakoku, and nothing says Globalism.
To your third point: you are making the error of believing what comes out of a party conference.
UK: 78.8
Scotland: 76.6
What is it with Nats & numbers.....?
And other countries are noticing too. I fear our much haunted soft power will be severely damaged by the insular turn of politics.
Control is a very potent theme; but it is more than that, control is the means by which those without economic power seek to better their lot and rediscover their pride.
It does rather stretch belief when our current gerontocratic PM and Chancellor have such a Damscene conversion after decades of being willing tools of Tory PMs who have a poor track record of interest.
If Hillary proves to be a competent technocratic president, then her popularity may well rise.
Theresa May, equally suffering from a charisma bypass, is doing well at the minute because she is perceived as competent.
Corbyn, who appears to be a reasonably likeable fellow, struggles obviously on the competent front.
It's a trifle tough to get through, and littered with links
http://www.vdare.com/articles/outer-boroughs-affect-why-charles-murray-cant-stomach-trump-despite-agreeing-with-him?content=Class derive f
What was said at that party conference will be affecting government all the way down; Government departments are in a permanent state of turf war, and they will always attempt to tune their proposals to be in line in with the zeitgeist so that the government will increase their funding and grow their responsibility. When there's a general consensus about the direction they should be following, they may dismiss a conference speech as mere politics, but when there's a vacuum, they will follow the government's lead.
The same is true of business: If you need to be based in a globalist country with free trade and reasonably free movement, you will start adjusting now. The markets clearly do believe that what was said at the conference represents an actual announcement of direction, otherwise it wouldn't have moved the pound.
You're getting sakoku.
But people generally dislike Corbyn because he is an unreconstituted socialist with questionable friends and little apparent concept of national patriotism.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
Unless you've got different polling?
The only thing we can safely take out of it is that May is prepared to walk away from the negotiations in a way that Cameron wasn't - and therefore she has at least a chance of getting a better result than he did.
Being prepared to walk away without a deal doesn't mean determined to walk away without a deal: if she wanted to do that she'd have triggered A50 by now.
It says 'this awful situation you're in is the best you're going to get' - meanwhile the 1% continue to enrich themselves and force upon the same struggling groups liberal social policy that often sticks in the craw.
I don't think I could express my own sense of frustration better Yellow. I have such a sense of foreboding for the future as the UK becomes poorer and isolated in a globalised world. The world's stock market is simply valuing the UK post Brexit. It is a sign of things to come. I'll be alright, but it's those middle earners and below- 70-80% of the population that can look to the future with failing public services, health services, increasing anger against foreigners, fragmentation in communities. The prospects for the UK within this bleak, nihilistic, hard Brexit climate are very poor indeed.
Brexit was such a monumental, catastrophic mistake for the UK.
So how do states work in the US?
Or Lander in Germany?
Sounds like an excuse to me.....
https://twitter.com/edballs/status/784680501701468160
Betting PostF1: rejoice! A tip, which is not about a safety car appearance:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/japan-pre-race-2016.html
Bet on Grosjean not to be classified due to lacking faith in the Haas car, as well as the circuit having close barriers and gravel traps (and being tight).
Edited extra bit: at 3.5, I hasten to add.
And increasing anger against foreigners. This has been caused by 30+ years of a neo-liberalist economic and social consensus disempowerinf the voters.
The opportunity to change this lay with the metropolitan elite in the early noughties - by doing things like looking long and hard at A8 enlargement, the integration of different groups into the national demos and the fair contribution of big corporations to society. It was dodged; the vote in 2016 was the safety valve before revolution - like nineteenth and twentieth century political and social reform before it, Brexit is the medicine that we must take to avoid revolution.
I think these women, Merkel, May and Clinton are tough, they've had to be and that toughness transfers well into competence. So, they struggle initially to get elected, but once in power they thrive.
The monied elite will always be there certainly but they've just had their first decent kick in the balls for half a century. They've been told their model for the UK doesnt work. The tectonic plates are moving underneath them and as yet no-one knows in which direction.
We are returning to the early 80s.
Poorer, insular, and plagued by extremism of all kinds.
I can only echo SO, YS and Tyson.
I don't mind sacrificing my latte (actually, hate them - a cup of warm milk?) to become a more equal society.
But that's not the trade off.
As we on the right have always said, if you shrink the cake, there's less to go around for everybody.
It doesn't sound like what the Brexit vote was for.
Perhaps the best thing would be to change the make up of the MPC so Carney was out-voted.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/79651/zac-goldsmith-i-will-trigger-election-if
I suspect he won't - I doubt Mrs May likes the cut of his jib - if he got re-elected as a Tory (questionable) it would be 'back-benches until retirement'....unless a posh public schoolboy takes over....