I think McDonnell's statement is pretty damned good. It's this sort of detailed analysis and forward-looking policy discussion that we need from anyone who is standing for the leadership (which apparently he isn't). If, say, Angela Eagle stands, I'm not interested in her opinions about Jeremy as I've heard them at length, I want to know what she stands for.
McDonnell's position is interesting if Corbyn did decide to step down. He has two big negatives - he's seen as much less sweet-natured than Corbyn by many other MPs (Corbyn is mostly liked by the resignees, they just don't think he's good at the job), and he once said pleasant things about the IRA (he's apologised and maybe it's yesterday's issue, or not?). On the other hand, he's a genuinely creative thinker who is doing a much better job of recognising changing realities and developing new policies (over everything from the economy to migration to Trident) than most shadow ministers. What do others think?
There is no point in being a creative thinker if you are not able to do anything with the thinking. For McDonnell to have any chance of turning thoughts into policies - or even just to influence the debate on Brexit from the opposition benches - Labour needs a new leader. Could members find it in themselves to vote for another candidate if McDonnell was part of the package? In other words, do as Tyson says: find a leader that can speak to middle Britain (England) as well as the Labour heartlands, with McDonnell guaranteed the shadow chancellor slot in any new cabinet? Someone like Dan Jarvis gets Labour a hearing in places where labour will not be heard right now. That is an opportunity for McDonnell, as well as other left wingers. What labour needs more than anything else is a shadow cabinet in which its best operators are all contributing. I will concede you McDonnell, but I would also posit that it should include the likes of Umana, Reeves, Cooper, Smith, Leslie, and so on. The Tories need to be facing a credible opposition - for the good of the country, if nothing else. Corbyn just cannot deliver that.
And so it begins. Regrexit is real. SeanT must take a bow.
A sensible centrist europhile Labour party pledging not to invoke Article 50 would stand a very good chance of winning a GE. It would lose some seats up north, but gain some in the SE.
Sadly, all those posters resonate, now even more. I'd publish them to show the futility of the CorBrexers position- Corbrexer (Corbyn/Brexit)- I have now joined these two hateful ideologies together because they are so well suited.
Tyson, the campaign finished last week. The result is in. You can stop now.
I think McDonnell's statement is pretty damned good. It's this sort of detailed analysis and forward-looking policy discussion that we need from anyone who is standing for the leadership (which apparently he isn't). If, say, Angela Eagle stands, I'm not interested in her opinions about Jeremy as I've heard them at length, I want to know what she stands for.
McDonnell's position is interesting if Corbyn did decide to step down. He has two big negatives - he's seen as much less sweet-natured than Corbyn by many other MPs (Corbyn is mostly liked by the resignees, they just don't think he's good at the job), and he once said pleasant things about the IRA (he's apologised and maybe it's yesterday's issue, or not?). On the other hand, he's a genuinely creative thinker who is doing a much better job of recognising changing realities and developing new policies (over everything from the economy to migration to Trident) than most shadow ministers. What do others think?
I'm not your target demographic, but it's clear that McDonnell is a political operator. He can string a sentence together. He's far more credible than Jeremy Corbyn and he wants to win an election. He's talking about policies not abstracts and ideals. Ticks the boxes for me.
I agree with everything JohnM said. Nick- I don't think being a bastard is a negative BTW. I think a kindly nature and political leadership are directly incompatible....I don't want my leader to be like my kindly Uncle Ralph. Being a cnut- the one swear word I will not write on this site- is a very good thing. So, he gets my tick too. And the IRA stuff- yes it's a cross, but I'm sure someone as clever as McDonnell can make amends for this if he's leader.
He doesn't have to be leader. A guaranteed slot as shadow chancellor would surely work.
Anyone au fait with Tory leadership election rules? Could we get May by some sort of coronation WAY sooner than Sept? Like if the others withdraw or she gets 100% at the first round or something? I think it would be dramatically good news for the country if she were installed ASAP rather than having to go through 2 months of pantomime.
I am the only person on here who helped (*) write a commercial web browser?
Ah, the joys of ECMAScript...
(*) In a small way.
If we are going for boosts, I've got 3 lines of code in the Linux Kernel... (all to get my laptop's sound card to work back in 2002)
Bah. You beat me.
Don't worry it sort of trumps most people who care about such things.... I keep it quiet as its literally the only bit of C code I've written since 1994....
Not Doctor Who, the Vienna Opera. I understand that when the Viennese courts were reconstituted after WW2 they couldn't find any judicial robes that weren't associated with the Nazis, and had to borrow costumes from the opera house instead, and Austrian court dress has been based on these ever since.
Anyone au fait with Tory leadership election rules? Could we get May by some sort of coronation WAY sooner than Sept? Like if the others withdraw or she gets 100% at the first round or something? I think it would be dramatically good news for the country if she were installed ASAP rather than having to go through 2 months of pantomime.
If she's the only candidate there will be no member vote. Short of changing the system while we are in it, that is the only way to truncate the process.
Tom Newton Dunn "The bodies are piling up behind Gove"
Are the bodies dead or alive?
Dead. It is their friends and relatives that are out for revenge. Ending Cameron's career Ending Boris's bid Ending REMAIN europhiles participation in the EU state.
"nearly two thirds believe they were misled by the Leave campaign’s flagship pledge to give the NHS £350 million which it claimed was being sent a week to Brussels"
The Osborne boom is based on a massive housing bubble.
I think that's absolutely right: people simply don't realise how unbalanced the UK economy is. Our current account deficit is close to 7%. To put that in context, almost a quarter of UK imports (a quarter!) are funded by either foreigners lending to us, or us selling off assets.
Our economy is increasingly resembling Spain's on the eve of the Eurozone crisis.
Fortunately, we will have currency depreciation to help cushion the blow. But irrespective, the household savings rate needs to move from 4% (a record low) to perhaps 11%. That will cause a nasty slowdown.
Why on earth would anyone save anything when you can't get any return on your savings...
Saving for a rainy day.
Why spend now, eg on a house, if you can buy later at a lower price.
Looking forward to buying my penthouse flat in London for under half a mil.
I think McDonnell's statement is pretty damned good. It's this sort of detailed analysis and forward-looking policy discussion that we need from anyone who is standing for the leadership (which apparently he isn't). If, say, Angela Eagle stands, I'm not interested in her opinions about Jeremy as I've heard them at length, I want to know what she stands for.
McDonnell's position is interesting if Corbyn did decide to step down. He has two big negatives - he's seen as much less sweet-natured than Corbyn by many other MPs (Corbyn is mostly liked by the resignees, they just don't think he's good at the job), and he once said pleasant things about the IRA (he's apologised and maybe it's yesterday's issue, or not?). On the other hand, he's a genuinely creative thinker who is doing a much better job of recognising changing realities and developing new policies (over everything from the economy to migration to Trident) than most shadow ministers. What do others think?
I'm not your target demographic, but it's clear that McDonnell is a political operator. He can string a sentence together. He's far more credible than Jeremy Corbyn and he wants to win an election. He's talking about policies not abstracts and ideals. Ticks the boxes for me.
I agree with everything JohnM said. Nick- I don't think being a bastard is a negative BTW. I think a kindly nature and political leadership are directly incompatible....I don't want my leader to be like my kindly Uncle Ralph. Being a cnut- the one swear word I will not write on this site- is a very good thing. So, he gets my tick too. And the IRA stuff- yes it's a cross, but I'm sure someone as clever as McDonnell can make amends for this if he's leader.
He doesn't have to be leader. A guaranteed slot as shadow chancellor would surely work.
Clearly McDonnell is the best policy thinker in the Labour party at the minute, and his new economics grasp the new realities. I think that would be the best outcome- McDonnell as shadow chancellor given economic freedom to make policy under a moderate leader- Jarvis or Starmer. Also, a free vote to be given to the membership on trident and a commitment to lower the threshold for MP nominations for future elections so a left wing voice is included. That would enshrine the Corbyn legacy into the long term constitution of the Labour Party and enable him to stand down thinking job done.
John Rentoul @JohnRentoul 3m3 minutes ago "Too many think they are Steve Jobs but in fact they’re really David Brent" Gove on overpaid business people
Too many people think they are PM, when actually they are that young chap with the glasses from Last of the Summer Wine.
Anyone au fait with Tory leadership election rules? Could we get May by some sort of coronation WAY sooner than Sept? Like if the others withdraw or she gets 100% at the first round or something? I think it would be dramatically good news for the country if she were installed ASAP rather than having to go through 2 months of pantomime.
If she's the only candidate there will be no member vote. Short of changing the system while we are in it, that is the only way to truncate the process.
There is a risk that her MP vote is so high that the rest back out.
"nearly two thirds believe they were misled by the Leave campaign’s flagship pledge to give the NHS £350 million which it claimed was being sent a week to Brussels"
Not Doctor Who, the Vienna Opera. I understand that when the Viennese courts were reconstituted after WW2 they couldn't find any judicial robes that weren't associated with the Nazis, and had to borrow costumes from the opera house instead, and Austrian court dress has been based on these ever since.
Great council result for the yellows in Leatherhead.
I suspect if (and obviously that's a big if) there's a GE this year, they could well win back REMAIN seats like Oxford W, Cheltenham, Twickenham and Bath.
Those seats voted Remain because the Tories there voted Remain. I wouldn't get your hopes up....
I rather think you're missing the point that at any GE in the autumn the Lib Dems will be unequivocally standing with a policy to challenge Brexit. The Conservative party won't.
But there won't be an autumn election, as likely next PM May has said.
Good luck to the LibDems in 2020 running on a rejoin the EU ticket - complete with the Euro and Schengen. It won't happen, will it? No. In which case the LibDem position will have been a very temporary one.
They're trying to latch on to the 48 remain support so they can increase their base. If that can go from 5 to 10 with such a policy, they hope picking up at GE, that'd be good for them. Nothing else has worked.
And May's comments mean nothing. Cameron said he wouldn't resign. I don't think either party wants a ge right now so it won't happen, but if they changed their minds or even think now it might be a good idea, you wouldn't say so.now, disrupting things.
I know it's difficult for us hard-bitten cynics who bet on politics to accept, but perhaps many LibDem activists actually do believe in the EU, warts and all, the whole caboodle?
I didn't say they didn't. They they are strategising to take advantage of a perceived opportunity doesn't mean they don't also think it is best
I am the only person on here who helped (*) write a commercial web browser?
Ah, the joys of ECMAScript...
(*) In a small way.
If we are going for boosts, I've got 3 lines of code in the Linux Kernel... (all to get my laptop's sound card to work back in 2002)
Bah. You beat me.
Don't worry it sort of trumps most people who care about such things.... I keep it quiet as its literally the only bit of C code I've written since 1994....
Mind you, if you've got a DAB digital radio, it might well have some of my code in it. And a fair few other consumer devices as well.
So if it crashes, you know who to blame.
Oh, and it might have one of Mrs J's chips in as well.
In fact @rcs1000, the demographics, Scottish/Welsh problems and their split metro/wc base are really working against Labour at the moment. I don't see how they muster even a coalition forming total without the Midlands.
They have to pivot away from metropolitanism to survive.
Without Scotland, losing their metropolitan heartlands in the South is equally fatal. They can either have 150 Northern seats, or 100 metropolitan and Southern.
Labour should decide whether they would prefer UKIP or Lib Dems to replace them in the losing battleground then. If they go for the northern route, the south progressive vote will be hoovered up by LDs, if they stick as they are it will be UKIP who prosper as the voice of the WWC. I think they would probably prefer to see more lib dems in parliament than UKIP at the end of the day.
What's Osborne up to. Seems he has just announced we will not hit the deficit targets now. Just as Gove speaks?
The referendum campaign has shown us that the deficit reduction targets put in place by the Tories were totally artificial. May has already dropped them. Again, this would be a gift for a credible opposition. The open goals are lining up for Labour but there is no-one to take the shots. Corbyn will just trip up on his shoelaces, while waving to a friendly anti-Semite in the crowd.
Gove - Do we get oranges at half time .... about 3 days from now.
Is he still warbling on. I couldn't continue watching because I was getting grossed out by the contortions of his mouth.
Yep, he is going through each page of the last Tory manifesto and outlining how he would have done it differently. We are now on NHS. Extra money will be given, despite the fact that Brexit has wrecked our economy at least in short term.
This is McDonnell wresting power from Corbyn. Plenty of Northern Labour MPs may well support him now if he goes for the leadership I reckon. Though he might play a longer game. He's got alot of low cunning.
This is amazing stuff, McDonnell is dangerous. He looks and sounds like a retired senior Met copper.
McDonnell is dangerous????- to be frank he is a paradigm of sense and stability after the Brexit loons. The extremity and consequences of Brexit means that the right will no longer be able to scaremonger about the dangers of the left.
I'm surprised you'd support a candidate who has just come out with a straight up Farage policy (No free movement) but we're into a "fast moving political enviroment"
As an internationalist I cannot support an anti immigration eurosceptic under any circumstances.
It divides the Left. Ken Livingstone became a Europhile some time after the 1975 referendum.
The majority of Corbyn's youthful supporters are also appalled by the result.
McD's statement seems to continue from where his wing of Labour left off in the 1975 referendum: No to the EEC, import controls, (continued) exchange controls, of course more nationalisation ... a regulated (siege?) economy, probably closer to that of the USSR than the USA.
As far as I recall, free movement of labour was linked with capitalism. A woman called Mrs T had recently become Tory leader against the odds and wholeheartedly supported free movement and ever closer union.
Anyone au fait with Tory leadership election rules? Could we get May by some sort of coronation WAY sooner than Sept? Like if the others withdraw or she gets 100% at the first round or something? I think it would be dramatically good news for the country if she were installed ASAP rather than having to go through 2 months of pantomime.
If she's the only candidate there will be no member vote. Short of changing the system while we are in it, that is the only way to truncate the process.
I guess people can be leant upon to drop out with the prospect of a sufficient carrot dangled in front of them... As long as Fox drops out on the first ballot without any offer, of course.
I will be somewhat miffed if I don't get to see hustings and make an informed choice, but to be frank, the country needs a PM rather more.
((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 24s24 seconds ago Is it me, or is launching your latest campaign with an admission you lied your arse off in your last campaign, not the best strategy.
There is no point in being a creative thinker if you are not able to do anything with the thinking. For McDonnell to have any chance of turning thoughts into policies - or even just to influence the debate on Brexit from the opposition benches - Labour needs a new leader. Could members find it in themselves to vote for another candidate if McDonnell was part of the package? In other words, do as Tyson says: find a leader that can speak to middle Britain (England) as well as the Labour heartlands, with McDonnell guaranteed the shadow chancellor slot in any new cabinet? Someone like Dan Jarvis gets Labour a hearing in places where labour will not be heard right now. That is an opportunity for McDonnell, as well as other left wingers. What labour needs more than anything else is a shadow cabinet in which its best operators are all contributing. I will concede you McDonnell, but I would also posit that it should include the likes of Umana, Reeves, Cooper, Smith, Leslie, and so on. The Tories need to be facing a credible opposition - for the good of the country, if nothing else. Corbyn just cannot deliver that.
((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 24s24 seconds ago Is it me, or is launching your latest campaign with an admission you lied your arse off in your last campaign, not the best strategy.
The NHS spends £115bn/year. £100m/week is £5.2bn over four years. So, really, he's promising 1.2% annual rises to the NHS budget. Which might very well be less than inflation.
Czech republic "Czech President Milos Zeman has called for the Czech Republic to hold a referendum on its membership of the European Union and NATO following Britain's shock vote to leave the EU, though he said he backed his country staying in both organisations.
Zeman has no power to call a referendum, which would require a constitutional amendment. But he is an influential leader in a country where many voters are sceptical about the EU"
@SamFawcett92: Tory candidates tacking left to win support of a largely centrist electorate. How many getting abuse and death threats from members? None
Czech republic "Czech President Milos Zeman has called for the Czech Republic to hold a referendum on its membership of the European Union and NATO following Britain's shock vote to leave the EU, though he said he backed his country staying in both organisations.
Zeman has no power to call a referendum, which would require a constitutional amendment. But he is an influential leader in a country where many voters are sceptical about the EU"
Christ, I thought he'd finished there, but now he's off again...
He has a very well developed policy platform, for someone who only decided to stand 72 hours ago.
To be fair, if you are a thinker and have been in politics as long as he has, you would expect to have views on most major policy issues, so creating a platform would not take long.
Not even I'm that optimistic, but yes it does help us to 'Win here'.
Lib Dem Gain Hornsey Wood Green, hold Hallam - perhaps even gain Richmond Park....
Richmond was one of the most Remain parts of the country, and Zac is a noted Eurosceptic. The locals in 2018 there will be very interesting, but I could see the LDs regaining Twickenham (without Cable) and Richmond. I don't think they'll take Kingston back, mind.
Czech republic "Czech President Milos Zeman has called for the Czech Republic to hold a referendum on its membership of the European Union and NATO following Britain's shock vote to leave the EU, though he said he backed his country staying in both organisations.
Zeman has no power to call a referendum, which would require a constitutional amendment. But he is an influential leader in a country where many voters are sceptical about the EU"
"nearly two thirds believe they were misled by the Leave campaign’s flagship pledge to give the NHS £350 million which it claimed was being sent a week to Brussels"
Durrr
How was the question phrased?
"Do you think the Leave campaign's claim that they would spend £350M a week extra on the NHS was misleading"?
Gove is surely not seriously campaigning for the leadership. He just wants to make sure he gets a big office of state when May takes over. Chancellor will be very tricky for him given the promises that he has previously made about extra public spending and no tax increases.
The £100 million more a week on the NHS by 2020 is, of course, very different to £350 million extra a week. I imagine that we are already projected to spend something like £100 million more on the NHS than we are now. "Extra" would be on top of that.
Comments
https://twitter.com/johnjamesscott/status/748818826251292672
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475
It'll happen in September or October.
A sensible centrist europhile Labour party pledging not to invoke Article 50 would stand a very good chance of winning a GE. It would lose some seats up north, but gain some in the SE.
The end of Southern Discomfort?
Interesting.
EDIT: I guess you have
Are the bodies dead or alive?
This is really going to hover up the membership of the Tory party out in the sticks.
Christ, I thought he'd finished there, but now he's off again...
Can we use it for appropriate highlighting?
Ending Cameron's career
Ending Boris's bid
Ending REMAIN europhiles participation in the EU state.
Truth is indeed stranger than fiction, Jack.
Durrr
Saving for a rainy day.
Why spend now, eg on a house, if you can buy later at a lower price.
Looking forward to buying my penthouse flat in London for under half a mil.
I think that would be the best outcome- McDonnell as shadow chancellor given economic freedom to make policy under a moderate leader- Jarvis or Starmer.
Also, a free vote to be given to the membership on trident and a commitment to lower the threshold for MP nominations for future elections so a left wing voice is included.
That would enshrine the Corbyn legacy into the long term constitution of the Labour Party and enable him to stand down thinking job done.
"Too many think they are Steve Jobs but in fact they’re really David Brent" Gove on overpaid business people
Too many people think they are PM, when actually they are that young chap with the glasses from Last of the Summer Wine.
Can anyone imagine it ?
So if it crashes, you know who to blame.
Oh, and it might have one of Mrs J's chips in as well.
Talks until the first round of voting ...
What a dreamer.
Media hacks suffering from bed sores ....
https://twitter.com/Gove2116
The majority of Corbyn's youthful supporters are also appalled by the result.
McD's statement seems to continue from where his wing of Labour left off in the 1975 referendum: No to the EEC, import controls, (continued) exchange controls, of course more nationalisation ... a regulated (siege?) economy, probably closer to that of the USSR than the USA.
As far as I recall, free movement of labour was linked with capitalism. A woman called Mrs T had recently become Tory leader against the odds and wholeheartedly supported free movement and ever closer union.
So at least he's consistent over time!
I will be somewhat miffed if I don't get to see hustings and make an informed choice, but to be frank, the country needs a PM rather more.
I assume you meant to have this written in blue?
Now saying he's not running because of calculation. WTF?
I wish Norman Lamb had won the LD leadership election. I might have been able to vote for him.
'Will Gove never stop .... even the paint behind him has dried out !!'
Why are you bothering to watch it ?
Is it me, or is launching your latest campaign with an admission you lied your arse off in your last campaign, not the best strategy.
Lib Dem Gain Hornsey Wood Green, hold Hallam - perhaps even gain Richmond Park....
edit: nope, question time now..l
"Czech President Milos Zeman has called for the Czech Republic to hold a referendum on its membership of the European Union and NATO following Britain's shock vote to leave the EU, though he said he backed his country staying in both organisations.
Zeman has no power to call a referendum, which would require a constitutional amendment. But he is an influential leader in a country where many voters are sceptical about the EU"
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-czech-president-idUKKCN0ZH4AV
@SamFawcett92: Tory candidates tacking left to win support of a largely centrist electorate. How many getting abuse and death threats from members? None
Journalist already going in for the "but the bus said £350m a week" question.
Huzzah for Gove rambling on and driving everyone to sleep. Hopefully this will ensure his MP support drains away rapidly.
"Do you think the Leave campaign's claim that they would spend £350M a week extra on the NHS was misleading"?
Would have got about 99%
The £100 million more a week on the NHS by 2020 is, of course, very different to £350 million extra a week. I imagine that we are already projected to spend something like £100 million more on the NHS than we are now. "Extra" would be on top of that.