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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds that Corbyn has lost his LAB members’ lifeline. He now looks doomed

Above are some of the key findings from a new YouGov poll of LAB party members – the very people that Corbyn is looking to to help keep him in his job.

Read the full story here

RobD

First, like May!

RobD

I call to order an emergency session of the PB Tories 4 Corbyn association!

nunu

RobD said:

First, like May!

Well done Rob! First at last!

RobD

nunu said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Well done Rob! First at last!

Where's peter? He can attest I have been first many times before, much to his chagrin.

nunu

RobD said:

nunu said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Well done Rob! First at last!

Where's peter? He can attest I have been first many times before, much to his chagrin.

Didn't you once have TSE give u a heads up he was going to make a new thread so that u can be first. Sad.

RobD

nunu said:

RobD said:

nunu said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Well done Rob! First at last!

Where's peter? He can attest I have been first many times before, much to his chagrin.

Didn't you once have TSE give u a heads up he was going to make a new thread so that u can be first. Sad.

With a prize so lucrative, can you blame me?

Tim_B

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

RobD

Tim_B said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

Are the BBC still doing that, after firing Clarkson, or is it a separate venture?

edmundintokyo

The left need to move on and run Clive Lewis. WTF are they thinking?

MTimT

RobD said:

Tim_B said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

Are the BBC still doing that, after firing Clarkson, or is it a separate venture?

I think it is Netflix

JosiasJessop

Off-topic:

We have discussed driverless cars and automated driving many times in the past..

The driver of a Tesla car died in Florida in May after colliding with a lorry.
Under scrutiny is Tesla's Autopilot feature, which automatically changes lanes and reacts to traffic.

In a statement, Tesla said it appeared the Model S car was unable to recognise "the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky" that had driven across the car's path."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36680043

RIP.

foxinsoxuk

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

We have discussed driverless cars and automated driving many times in the past..

The driver of a Tesla car died in Florida in May after colliding with a lorry.
Under scrutiny is Tesla's Autopilot feature, which automatically changes lanes and reacts to traffic.

In a statement, Tesla said it appeared the Model S car was unable to recognise "the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky" that had driven across the car's path."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36680043

RIP.

Sad.

Good to see you back amongst the insommniacs and expats of PB mornings.

JosiasJessop

foxinsoxuk said:

Sad.

Good to see you back amongst the insommniacs and expats of PB mornings.

Thanks. It's been a good week.

Edit: and to be frank, what political anorak could miss the last week? Missteps, mistakes and mishaps all round!

Moses_

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

SouthamObserver

Moses_ said:

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

There is a big difference between a Labour member and a Labour voter. That's why Corbyn is in charge.

foxinsoxuk

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

SouthamObserver

This looks to me like Corbyn is safe. There's no candidate who can beat him. All he needs is one more vote than anyone else and he's fine. This is the hard left we are talking about. They are not going to give up their chance to destroy Labour under any circumstances. Only when the bourgeois, decadent, pro-capitalist entity that currently exists is wiped out can a new extra-parliamentary, proletarian movement rise up and seize power from the ruling classes. This is genuinely how Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne etc think.

ThomasNashe

Moses_ said:

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

You've fallen for the Corbynite fallacy: equating the views of Labour members with those of Labour voters.

SouthamObserver

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

There is a big difference between a Labour member and a Labour voter. That's why Corbyn is in charge.

Labour 'members' are London centric......and at this rate, Labour 'voters' will end up that way too.....

SouthamObserver

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

JosiasJessop

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

One of the reasons I'm probably (*) going to join the Lib Dems, or at least am seriously considering it. They were good in the coalition government IMO, and seem a saner alternative vote in England to either Labour or the Greens.

As a side-point, a slight issue that has stopped me joining is their website. You go to it at http://www.libdems.org.uk/, click on the 'become a member' button, and it takes you to a form that asks for personal information *before* telling you the cost. I haven't progressed past that form as I don't want personal information in their system in case I find the cost is too high. (**)

https://libdems.secure.force.com/LiberalDemocrats/NewMemberRegistration

That sort of thing really annoys me. The cost should be visible on either the front page or the 'become a member' page. The Greens (***), Conservatives and Labour get this right.

https://join.labour.org.uk/
https://www.conservatives.com/join
https://my.greenparty.org.uk/civicrm/membership/joining

It'd be nice to think the power of PB would get this changed.

(*) Perhaps in the same way I was 'probably' going to vote Leave. Ahem.
(**) Yes, I found the cost elsewhere - £12 a year. It's still a poor thing for them to do.
(***) The Greens front page is hideously green. Terrible web design.

paulyork64

SouthamObserver said:

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

But are the latest batch of £3ers more from the ABC camp?

SouthamObserver

paulyork64 said:

SouthamObserver said:

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

But are the latest batch of £3ers more from the ABC camp?

They can be rustled up at a moment's notice. Corbyn is as safe as houses.

JosiasJessop

Further to my earlier post on the Tesla crash, ArsTechnica has (as usual) excellent comment below the line.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/06/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-nhtsa-investigation

An this earlier crash might indicate the sensors *may* have blind spots for high obstructions;
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39727592&nid=148&title=utah-man-says-tesla-car-started-on-its-own-crashed-into-trailer

As an aside, there're going to be future issues with Tesla (and other manufacturers) having first dibs on the data from cars when there are crashes.

AlastairMeeks

The current Labour leadership are going to need to be dragged out of office and their fingers will need to be peeled off the door frame. The state of the party afterwards is not something that concerns them.

JosiasJessop

SouthamObserver said:

paulyork64 said:

SouthamObserver said:

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

But are the latest batch of £3ers more from the ABC camp?

They can be rustled up at a moment's notice. Corbyn is as safe as houses.

Can we be sure all the £3ers actually exist? What verification is done?

foxinsoxuk

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

foxinsoxuk

JosiasJessop said:

Further to my earlier post on the Tesla crash, ArsTechnica has (as usual) excellent comment below the line.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/06/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-nhtsa-investigation

An this earlier crash might indicate the sensors *may* have blind spots for high obstructions;
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39727592&nid=148&title=utah-man-says-tesla-car-started-on-its-own-crashed-into-trailer

As an aside, there're going to be future issues with Tesla (and other manufacturers) having first dibs on the data from cars when there are crashes.

While Beta testing is clearly needed, I am not terribly keen to volunteer!

Sandpit

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

SouthamObserver

AlastairMeeks said:

The current Labour leadership are going to need to be dragged out of office and their fingers will need to be peeled off the door frame. The state of the party afterwards is not something that concerns them.

Precisely, though it's more accurate to say that the state of the party does not bother them full stop. Labour must be destroyed before it can be rebuilt - taken from Parliament, put out onto the streets. No more bourgeois representative democracy, but direct action. That is the only way to secure the dictatorship of the proletariat. From chaos the workers will emerge triumphant. Seamus Milne learned all this at Winchester.

Sandpit

MTimT said:

RobD said:

Tim_B said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

Are the BBC still doing that, after firing Clarkson, or is it a separate venture?

I think it is Netflix

Amazon Prime for the Clarkson, May and Hammond show 'The Geand Tour'

JosiasJessop

foxinsoxuk said:

JosiasJessop said:

Further to my earlier post on the Tesla crash, ArsTechnica has (as usual) excellent comment below the line.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/06/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-nhtsa-investigation

An this earlier crash might indicate the sensors *may* have blind spots for high obstructions;
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39727592&nid=148&title=utah-man-says-tesla-car-started-on-its-own-crashed-into-trailer

As an aside, there're going to be future issues with Tesla (and other manufacturers) having first dibs on the data from cars when there are crashes.

While Beta testing is clearly needed, I am not terribly keen to volunteer!

You've never come across as a crash-test dummy!

ydoethur

Moses_ said:

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

There are very few Labour members left in the Valleys. That's because the current members are colossal members that even tribal Labour voters dislike.

This is one reason why I foresee a Labour implosion in Wales. There seems a real possibility that at the next election they lose ten poor seats in the Valleys and gain wealthy Cardiff North. Which would speak volumes for what Labour has become!

anotherDave

Morning all.

I think the bods on ITV3 just said Andrea Leadsom is going to be on at 7:10am.

ydoethur

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

If there is an election it's very tempting to pay £3 and vote for the other candidate if it's someone who could pass for sane.

That let's out Clive 'back end of a goat' Lewis, but I'd vote for Owen Smith. Even though I think he's a dud, he's less of a dud than the Jezziah.

anotherDave

ydoethur said:

Moses_ said:

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

There are very few Labour members left in the Valleys. That's because the current members are colossal members that even tribal Labour voters dislike.

This is one reason why I foresee a Labour implosion in Wales. There seems a real possibility that at the next election they lose ten poor seats in the Valleys and gain wealthy Cardiff North. Which would speak volumes for what Labour has become!

I was hoping to see that last year in Mr Kinnock's seat, but he won easily. So I'll believe it when I see it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberavon_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s

JosiasJessop

As a matter of interest, is there something preventing someone from being a member of two or more political parties at once?

anotherDave

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Tosh. The good times are coming. The CANZUK alliance will likely head an intergalactic empire by the end of the century.

anotherDave

JosiasJessop said:

As a matter of interest, is there something preventing someone from being a member of two or more political parties at once?

I think if they find out, they can expel you. But I don't see why they'd bother trying to find out.

Sandpit

JosiasJessop said:

SouthamObserver said:

paulyork64 said:

SouthamObserver said:

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

But are the latest batch of £3ers more from the ABC camp?

They can be rustled up at a moment's notice. Corbyn is as safe as houses.

Can we be sure all the £3ers actually exist? What verification is done?

Not enough to stop various children, pets, unsympathetic journalists and members of other parties from signing up last time. They did manage to find a few Tory councillors and even an MP though.

Bromptonaut

JosiasJessop said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

One of the reasons I'm probably (*) going to join the Lib Dems, or at least am seriously considering it. They were good in the coalition government IMO, and seem a saner alternative vote in England to either Labour or the Greens.

As a side-point, a slight issue that has stopped me joining is their website. You go to it at http://www.libdems.org.uk/, click on the 'become a member' button, and it takes you to a form that asks for personal information *before* telling you the cost. I haven't progressed past that form as I don't want personal information in their system in case I find the cost is too high. (**)

https://libdems.secure.force.com/LiberalDemocrats/NewMemberRegistration

That sort of thing really annoys me. The cost should be visible on either the front page or the 'become a member' page. The Greens (***), Conservatives and Labour get this right.

https://join.labour.org.uk/
https://www.conservatives.com/join
https://my.greenparty.org.uk/civicrm/membership/joining

It'd be nice to think the power of PB would get this changed.

(*) Perhaps in the same way I was 'probably' going to vote Leave. Ahem.
(**) Yes, I found the cost elsewhere - £12 a year. It's still a poor thing for them to do.
(***) The Greens front page is hideously green. Terrible web design.

It's on the FAQ page - not exactly hidden away!

I'm also thinking of joining, I've voted Lab/SDP/LD and Green at various times but always felt the LDs are closest to my core values.

The Brexit vote, Farron's clear and honourable response and the steady march of Labour into the wilderness pretty much are doing it for me.

Tim_B

MTimT said:

RobD said:

Tim_B said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

Are the BBC still doing that, after firing Clarkson, or is it a separate venture?

I think it is Netflix

Amazon Prime

SouthamObserver

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

If there is an election it's very tempting to pay £3 and vote for the other candidate if it's someone who could pass for sane.

That let's out Clive 'back end of a goat' Lewis, but I'd vote for Owen Smith. Even though I think he's a dud, he's less of a dud than the Jezziah.

Now, more than any other time that I can remember, the country needs an opposition. People who pay £3 to vote for Corbyn in order to scupper Labour are playing pathetic party politics precisly when the government should be subjected to the most intense scrutiny, as it negotiates a deal that will shape our future and even whether the UK will continue to exist. On the other hand, paying £3 to vote against Corbyn would be the act of a patriot. I would urge as many people as possible to do it. :-)

Tim_B

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

foxinsoxuk

SouthamObserver said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The current Labour leadership are going to need to be dragged out of office and their fingers will need to be peeled off the door frame. The state of the party afterwards is not something that concerns them.

Precisely, though it's more accurate to say that the state of the party does not bother them full stop. Labour must be destroyed before it can be rebuilt - taken from Parliament, put out onto the streets. No more bourgeois representative democracy, but direct action. That is the only way to secure the dictatorship of the proletariat. From chaos the workers will emerge triumphant. Seamus Milne learned all this at Winchester.

Anyone who makes plans for after the revolution is a reactionary.

Mikhail Bakunin
Read more at: http://mobile.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mikhailbak383410.html

MikeK

Good morning all. Anything on? No! Then I'm going back to bed.

One of the perks of being an OAP.

williamglenn

anotherDave said:

JosiasJessop said:

As a matter of interest, is there something preventing someone from being a member of two or more political parties at once?

I think if they find out, they can expel you. But I don't see why they'd bother trying to find out.

They tried to expel people from other parties voting for Corbyn last time.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11815777/Labour-purge-is-deliberate-attempt-by-party-to-stop-Jeremy-Corbyn-winning-former-MP-claims.html

SouthamObserver

JosiasJessop said:

As a matter of interest, is there something preventing someone from being a member of two or more political parties at once?

Honesty. Not sure about how it works elsewhere, but Labour members are not allowed to be members of other parties.

foxinsoxuk

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

MarqueeMark

SouthamObserver said:

JosiasJessop said:

As a matter of interest, is there something preventing someone from being a member of two or more political parties at once?

Honesty. Not sure about how it works elsewhere, but Labour members are not allowed to be members of other parties.

Ditto the Conservatives.

paulyork64

Bromptonaut said:

JosiasJessop said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

One of the reasons I'm probably (*) going to join the Lib Dems, or at least am seriously considering it. They were good in the coalition government IMO, and seem a saner alternative vote in England to either Labour or the Greens.

As a side-point, a slight issue that has stopped me joining is their website. You go to it at http://www.libdems.org.uk/, click on the 'become a member' button, and it takes you to a form that asks for personal information *before* telling you the cost. I haven't progressed past that form as I don't want personal information in their system in case I find the cost is too high. (**)

https://libdems.secure.force.com/LiberalDemocrats/NewMemberRegistration

That sort of thing really annoys me. The cost should be visible on either the front page or the 'become a member' page. The Greens (***), Conservatives and Labour get this right.

https://join.labour.org.uk/
https://www.conservatives.com/join
https://my.greenparty.org.uk/civicrm/membership/joining

It'd be nice to think the power of PB would get this changed.

(*) Perhaps in the same way I was 'probably' going to vote Leave. Ahem.
(**) Yes, I found the cost elsewhere - £12 a year. It's still a poor thing for them to do.
(***) The Greens front page is hideously green. Terrible web design.

It's on the FAQ page - not exactly hidden away!

I'm also thinking of joining, I've voted Lab/SDP/LD and Green at various times but always felt the LDs are closest to my core values.

The Brexit vote, Farron's clear and honourable response and the steady march of Labour into the wilderness pretty much are doing it for me.

Im instinctively a tory but i did quite like the coalition and hope it gets seen in a better light for the LDs as time passes, not just viewed as betrayal and a power trip for clegg.

Sandpit

JosiasJessop said:

Further to my earlier post on the Tesla crash, ArsTechnica has (as usual) excellent comment below the line.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/06/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-nhtsa-investigation

An this earlier crash might indicate the sensors *may* have blind spots for high obstructions;
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39727592&nid=148&title=utah-man-says-tesla-car-started-on-its-own-crashed-into-trailer

As an aside, there're going to be future issues with Tesla (and other manufacturers) having first dibs on the data from cars when there are crashes.

Very interesting. It was obviously always going to happen, and the key will be how liability works out with Tesla and the various insurance companies involved - especially in the litigation happy culture of the US.

In my mind a semi-autonomous car is the worst of all worlds, allowing the driver to distract himself while still requiring his attention at a second's notice. There's lots of research going on in aviation now regarding this "automation dependency" leading to a lack of basic skills on the day they're suddenly required. See Air France 447 and Air Asia 8501 for details. It's actually worse in a car, because the time between the autopilot saying "you have control" and the accident may only be a second or two, whereas at 40,000' it's usually at least a couple of minutes.

I'll get an autonomous car when it can drop me at the office door then go and park itself, before being called to pick me up from the pub after dinner and drinks.

Freggles

POJWAS.

Where is Big John Owls?

anotherDave

foxinsoxuk said:

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

The SKY temperature map showed 45 degrees in Kuwait today. If you're looking for misery, Kuwait could be your spot!

MarqueeMark

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

SouthamObserver said:

paulyork64 said:

SouthamObserver said:

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

But are the latest batch of £3ers more from the ABC camp?

They can be rustled up at a moment's notice. Corbyn is as safe as houses.

Can we be sure all the £3ers actually exist? What verification is done?

Not enough to stop various children, pets, unsympathetic journalists and members of other parties from signing up last time. They did manage to find a few Tory councillors and even an MP though.

But the dogs got through....

SouthamObserver

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Yep, as self-inflicted wounds go this is a big one. It is, of course, why Corbyn and the hard left were so keen on Brexit. The more the proletariat suffers, the more radicalised it becomes. Victory will be won on the streets, not in Parliament.

As for emigration. It's not for me. I'd expect at least one of my kids to head off though. The time I spent living abroad was incredibly enriching and eye-opening. It changed me completely.

logical_song

Last night's by-election results. Great for LibDem, bad for UKIP and Con. Bad for Lab except Bexley.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 7h7 hours ago
Leatherhead North (Mole Valley) result:
LDEM: 56.6% (+27.4)
CON: 22.3% (-11.7)
UKIP: 10.3% (-7.9)
LAB: 8.9% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.8% (-2.1)

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 7h7 hours ago
St Michael's (Bexley) result:
CON: 37.4% (+2.7)
LAB: 33.5% (+11.5)
UKIP: 18.2% (-14.7)
LDEM: 4.7% (+4.7)
BNP: 4.2% (-6.3)
GRN: 2.2% (+2.2)

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 7h7 hours ago
High Town (Luton) result:
LAB: 39.7% (-13.4)
GRN: 21.5% (+3.8)
LDEM: 14.2% (+14.2)
CON: 11.1% (-18.1)
IND: 8.0% (+8.0)
UKIP: 5.4% (+5.4)

anotherDave

"A flashpoint also developed between Gove and Johnson over whether Boris should give George Osborne a top job in his Cabinet.

As the Chancellor’s old friend, Mr Gove was desperate to bring him on board their operation and bombarded Mr Osborne with texts and calls last weekend.

But the Chancellor wanted to wait to see how the race played out, and Boris had no intention of offering his old rival anything anyway."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1371058/inside-story-of-tories-borexit-how-bojos-career-was-left-in-tatters-a-week-after-he-thought-hed-be-next-pm/

Looks like Gove + Osborne is a thing. Vote anyone-but-gove!

logical_song

Tim_B said:

MTimT said:

RobD said:

Tim_B said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

Are the BBC still doing that, after firing Clarkson, or is it a separate venture?

I think it is Netflix

Amazon Prime

Top Gear is BBC

SouthamObserver

foxinsoxuk said:

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

NZ is wonderful if you have a bit of money. The top of the South Island around Nelson - where my brother lives - is paradise. Doctors and others working in essential professions have it all. But it's a tough place to build a future in if you don't have such skills. Lots of kiwis emigrate to Australia these days, I think.

Sandpit

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

SouthamObserver said:

paulyork64 said:

SouthamObserver said:

You also need to throw the £3ers into the mix. I suspect they were not polled as they are much harder to identify.

Corbyn is safe. Labour is finished. The hard left has won.

But are the latest batch of £3ers more from the ABC camp?

They can be rustled up at a moment's notice. Corbyn is as safe as houses.

Can we be sure all the £3ers actually exist? What verification is done?

Not enough to stop various children, pets, unsympathetic journalists and members of other parties from signing up last time. They did manage to find a few Tory councillors and even an MP though.

But the dogs got through....

Of course, a quick Google didn't turn up anything unnusual.

The one good thing they did last time was to have the local associations do the vetting - turned up a load of people that they knew didn't support the Labour Party that wouldn't have come up otherwise such as local activists for other parties. They don't have the Tory membership list though.

ydoethur

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

If there is an election it's very tempting to pay £3 and vote for the other candidate if it's someone who could pass for sane.

That let's out Clive 'back end of a goat' Lewis, but I'd vote for Owen Smith. Even though I think he's a dud, he's less of a dud than the Jezziah.

Now, more than any other time that I can remember, the country needs an opposition. People who pay £3 to vote for Corbyn in order to scupper Labour are playing pathetic party politics precisly when the government should be subjected to the most intense scrutiny, as it negotiates a deal that will shape our future and even whether the UK will continue to exist. On the other hand, paying £3 to vote against Corbyn would be the act of a patriot. I would urge as many people as possible to do it. :-)

The candidate I would genuinely join to vote for, rather than merely to hurt Jez, would be Jon Cruddas. Is there any chance he might finally be persuaded to put himself forward?

OldKingCole

anotherDave said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

The SKY temperature map showed 45 degrees in Kuwait today. If you're looking for misery, Kuwait could be your spot!

Housing in NZ is expensive, particularly around Auckland. In NZ money, of course. Having said that a much younger cousin asked my advice about emigrating there 12 or so years ago. I advised to go, he did and he’s never looked back.
I wisj I’d gone 60 years ago!

SquareRoot

anotherDave said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

The SKY temperature map showed 45 degrees in Kuwait today. If you're looking for misery, Kuwait could be your spot!

The lack of culture would do my head in.. all those sheep and only NZ rugby to watch as a sport.. naah.. its on my bucket list to visit before I pop my clogs though

JosiasJessop

Bromptonaut said:

It's on the FAQ page - not exactly hidden away!

I'm also thinking of joining, I've voted Lab/SDP/LD and Green at various times but always felt the LDs are closest to my core values.

The Brexit vote, Farron's clear and honourable response and the steady march of Labour into the wilderness pretty much are doing it for me.

It should be on the first page you click on the first joining page, as it is for the other three parties mentioned.

I have an aversion from webpages and stores that make me enter personal information *before* I know vital information. I'm not the only one, and I guess would-be Lib Dems are likely to be similarly careful with their private information.

I have just entered some false information on the first page (sorry Lib Dems, but Test House does not exist in the city of Test), and the next page gives you a series of prices for different options. Those options should be on the first page.

It's also seems inconsistent: from the FAQ: "Membership costs £12 a year - but we hope that you might consider donating a little more. You can join online by paying with either a credit/debit card or direct debit, and will have the option to choose how much you pay there."

Yet the webform second page defaults to £25 with the text: "We recommend an annual subscription £70, but you can join for as little as £12 (£6 for students/claimants). It's your choice."

Messy. So very, very messy.

Tim_B

logical_song said:

Tim_B said:

MTimT said:

RobD said:

Tim_B said:

RobD said:

First, like May!

Speaking of May, he appears in neither of the two promos I have seen for the Grand Tour. The first one was Clarkson trying to assemble a DHL cardboard box.The second was Clarkson and Hammond sitting at a table inviting folks to the first studio filming in South Africa in July, unless you are a moron or drive a Peugeot.

Both were considerably funnier than the new Top Gear - keep Sabine, keep Matt and ditch the rest of them.

Are the BBC still doing that, after firing Clarkson, or is it a separate venture?

I think it is Netflix

Amazon Prime

Top Gear is BBC

The now utterly dreadful Flop Gear is BBC, but The Grand Tour -Hammond, Clarkson and May - is Amazon Prime. The first studio episode is being shot in a couple of weeks in Jo'burg.

tyson

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Yep, as self-inflicted wounds go this is a big one. It is, of course, why Corbyn and the hard left were so keen on Brexit. The more the proletariat suffers, the more radicalised it becomes. Victory will be won on the streets, not in Parliament.

As for emigration. It's not for me. I'd expect at least one of my kids to head off though. The time I spent living abroad was incredibly enriching and eye-opening. It changed me completely.

I've been speaking to a couple of my Corbyn buddies. I couldn't help but draw the similarities to the Brexiters- both groups filled by zealous, dangerous ideologues, who seek to destroy this country with their nihilistic ideology for some spurious, ill conceived gain. They are welcome to each other.

Sandpit

anotherDave said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

The SKY temperature map showed 45 degrees in Kuwait today. If you're looking for misery, Kuwait could be your spot!

And it will be 45 or higher every day until the end of September. Humid too. Every time summer comes around you forget how bad it was last year, when you walk outside and your sunglasses steam up, when a two minute walk from your car to the office makes your shirt wet and your face sweaty.

Winter's great though!

SouthamObserver

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

If there is an election it's very tempting to pay £3 and vote for the other candidate if it's someone who could pass for sane.

That let's out Clive 'back end of a goat' Lewis, but I'd vote for Owen Smith. Even though I think he's a dud, he's less of a dud than the Jezziah.

Now, more than any other time that I can remember, the country needs an opposition. People who pay £3 to vote for Corbyn in order to scupper Labour are playing pathetic party politics precisly when the government should be subjected to the most intense scrutiny, as it negotiates a deal that will shape our future and even whether the UK will continue to exist. On the other hand, paying £3 to vote against Corbyn would be the act of a patriot. I would urge as many people as possible to do it. :-)

The candidate I would genuinely join to vote for, rather than merely to hurt Jez, would be Jon Cruddas. Is there any chance he might finally be persuaded to put himself forward?

I doubt it. But with a new leader people like Cruddas will be freed up to sit on the shadow government benches. The country needs Labour's big bests - such as they are - to be holding the government to account. With Corbyn in charge that cannot happen. With any other likely leader it would.

MarqueeMark

SouthamObserver said:

This looks to me like Corbyn is safe. There's no candidate who can beat him. All he needs is one more vote than anyone else and he's fine. This is the hard left we are talking about. They are not going to give up their chance to destroy Labour under any circumstances. Only when the bourgeois, decadent, pro-capitalist entity that currently exists is wiped out can a new extra-parliamentary, proletarian movement rise up and seize power from the ruling classes. This is genuinely how Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne etc think.

You'd think that maybe, just maybe, on one of the near 18,000 mornings Corbyn has woken up since his student days, on one of them he might just have thought to himself

"Hang on a minute. WHAT??? That is just so much bollocks..."

blackburn63

Amongst the idiots there are some clever people on here, it never ceases to amaze me why they place so much faith in politicians, the last few weeks has proven that the vast majority have no concerns beyond self interest. Both main parties are rancid to the core, alleged friends knifing each other front and back, sycophants jockeying for position, it is nauseating.

David Cameron must be the most relieved man in the world, looking on at the way our lawmakers conduct themselves. That said, he is a massive contributory factor in all this, he won't feel good about himself, and nor should he.

JosiasJessop

logical_song said:

Last night's by-election results. Great for LibDem, bad for UKIP and Con. Bad for Lab except Bexley.

(Snip)

I'm not sure you can spin those as 'great' for the Lib Dems. Leatherhead was good, but the other two evidently did not have LD candidates previously, and only got low percentages.

anotherDave

Crick and Dorries say Osborne was behind Gove attacking Boris.

https://twitter.com/NadineDorriesMP

Vote anyone-but-gove!

blackburn63

Not sure why anybody would expect Ukip to do well right now, the party is skint, rudderless and devoid of ideas beyond the EU.

SouthamObserver

tyson said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Yep, as self-inflicted wounds go this is a big one. It is, of course, why Corbyn and the hard left were so keen on Brexit. The more the proletariat suffers, the more radicalised it becomes. Victory will be won on the streets, not in Parliament.

As for emigration. It's not for me. I'd expect at least one of my kids to head off though. The time I spent living abroad was incredibly enriching and eye-opening. It changed me completely.

I've been speaking to a couple of my Corbyn buddies. I couldn't help but draw the similarities to the Brexiters- both groups filled by zealous, dangerous ideologues, who seek to destroy this country with their nihilistic ideology for some spurious, ill conceived gain. They are welcome to each other.

And the rest of us have to live with it. This country is almost visibly diminishing day by day. Our reputation outside of right wing nationalist circles has been hugely damaged, while Carney made clear yesterday just how much economic harm we have inflicted on ourselves. And yet there is nothing there to hold the Tory Leavers to account. They are going to be hated, but will get away with it scot free.

kle4

blackburn63 said:

Not sure why anybody would expect Ukip to do well right now, the party is skint, rudderless and devoid of ideas beyond the EU.

Depends how angry people are about immigration and how they'll react if the Tories fail again on it. They weren't punished in 2015 admittedly.

Charles

edmundintokyo said:

The left need to move on and run Clive Lewis. WTF are they thinking?

Two thoughts:

(1) Why would they? There is no mechanism - even without members support - that can force Corbyn to step down. I suppose the NEC could expel him from the party, but that would seem extreme. If there is a chance he/the left would lose, why would he go?

(2) The 90/10 split of Remain voters looks fishy. I'd thought the Labour *voters* were close to 60/40. Now that could be (a) false recall (b) members are not representative of voters or (c) YouGov has an unbalanced sample. In any event you shouldn't just take at face value

PlatoSaid

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

They asked me I thought it was a bit odd. The filter question at the beginning asked if I'd ever been a member of X Party - I answered honestly and said Tory and Labour. I wouldn't put too much store in this poll unless then removed responses like mine.

JosiasJessop

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

Further to my earlier post on the Tesla crash, ArsTechnica has (as usual) excellent comment below the line.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/06/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-nhtsa-investigation

An this earlier crash might indicate the sensors *may* have blind spots for high obstructions;
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39727592&nid=148&title=utah-man-says-tesla-car-started-on-its-own-crashed-into-trailer

As an aside, there're going to be future issues with Tesla (and other manufacturers) having first dibs on the data from cars when there are crashes.

Very interesting. It was obviously always going to happen, and the key will be how liability works out with Tesla and the various insurance companies involved - especially in the litigation happy culture of the US.

In my mind a semi-autonomous car is the worst of all worlds, allowing the driver to distract himself while still requiring his attention at a second's notice. There's lots of research going on in aviation now regarding this "automation dependency" leading to a lack of basic skills on the day they're suddenly required. See Air France 447 and Air Asia 8501 for details. It's actually worse in a car, because the time between the autopilot saying "you have control" and the accident may only be a second or two, whereas at 40,000' it's usually at least a couple of minutes.

I'll get an autonomous car when it can drop me at the office door then go and park itself, before being called to pick me up from the pub after dinner and drinks.

That's a fair summary of my views.

Edge and corner cases will abound, especially as the tech is not AI-complete.

I'd also be concerned that much of this tech is being developed in the US, where driving conditions and roads are quite different.

blackburn63

SouthamObserver said:

tyson said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Yep, as self-inflicted wounds go this is a big one. It is, of course, why Corbyn and the hard left were so keen on Brexit. The more the proletariat suffers, the more radicalised it becomes. Victory will be won on the streets, not in Parliament.

As for emigration. It's not for me. I'd expect at least one of my kids to head off though. The time I spent living abroad was incredibly enriching and eye-opening. It changed me completely.

I've been speaking to a couple of my Corbyn buddies. I couldn't help but draw the similarities to the Brexiters- both groups filled by zealous, dangerous ideologues, who seek to destroy this country with their nihilistic ideology for some spurious, ill conceived gain. They are welcome to each other.

And the rest of us have to live with it. This country is almost visibly diminishing day by day. Our reputation outside of right wing nationalist circles has been hugely damaged, while Carney made clear yesterday just how much economic harm we have inflicted on ourselves. And yet there is nothing there to hold the Tory Leavers to account. They are going to be hated, but will get away with it scot free.

What has happened to you? Get a grip man ffs, you'll make yourself ill over nothing.

Visibly diminishing day by day.

Its like a 14 year old's poetry

kle4

JosiasJessop said:

logical_song said:

Last night's by-election results. Great for LibDem, bad for UKIP and Con. Bad for Lab except Bexley.

(Snip)

I'm not sure you can spin those as 'great' for the Lib Dems. Leatherhead was good, but the other two evidently did not have LD candidates previously, and only got low percentages.

Looks like a very standard set of by elections, where a big swing agai st dny national picture just happens occasionally.

Tribal politics is here to stay - it's hard to see, but the Tories are uniting and labour will find a way to pretend they are all fine.

CarlottaVance

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Oh cheer up. We've seen the last (for a while at least) of the posh boy PMs and are heading for a sensible vicar's daughter - who won't stand any nonsense - ask the Police.....she's also been swift at dumping some baggage - pulling out of the EHCR for example....a year from now we could be looking back on this as a blessing in disguise....

SouthamObserver

blackburn63 said:

SouthamObserver said:

tyson said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leaversteam, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Yep, as self-inflicted wounds go this is a big one. It is, of course, why Corbyn and the hard left were so keen on Brexit. The more the proletariat suffers, the more radicalised it becomes. Victory will be won on the streets, not in Parliament.

As for emigration. It's not for me. I'd expect at least one of my kids to head off though. The time I spent living abroad was incredibly enriching and eye-opening. It changed me completely.

I've been speaking to a couple of my Corbyn buddies. I couldn't help but draw the similarities to the Brexiters- both groups filled by zealous, dangerous ideologues, who seek to destroy this country with their nihilistic ideology for some spurious, ill conceived gain. They are welcome to each other.

And the rest of us have to live with it. This country is almost visibly diminishing day by day. Our reputation outside of right wing nationalist circles has been hugely damaged, while Carney made clear yesterday just how much economic harm we have inflicted on ourselves. And yet there is nothing there to hold the Tory Leavers to account. They are going to be hated, but will get away with it scot free.

What has happened to you? Get a grip man ffs, you'll make yourself ill over nothing.

Visibly diminishing day by day.

Its like a 14 year old's poetry

I wish it were. Sadly, it's not. Hopefully, we can get out of this mess we have created for ourselves.

JosiasJessop

kle4 said:

blackburn63 said:

Not sure why anybody would expect Ukip to do well right now, the party is skint, rudderless and devoid of ideas beyond the EU.

Depends how angry people are about immigration and how they'll react if the Tories fail again on it. They weren't punished in 2015 admittedly.

Possibly because the Tories had the EU to hide behind. Many voters would have said: "I have concerns about immigration (though I'm not obsessed, and that nice Polish man down the corner shop isn't a real immigrant). But it's all the EU's fault the government can't do more."

That defence has now disappeared.

tyson

The banking crisis destroyed our wealth by about 12%-15% from where it should have been you have to take the amount it fell (about 7%) and add the lack of growth (5-8%) in this period. It left us impoverished and facing years of austerity. The consequences...poverty, bedroom tax, massive cuts to public services, years of squeezed salaries.....

Debt levels in 2008 were only about 40% of GDP. So, the Govt was able to borrow to offset the economic collapse.

How much will Brexit destroy our wealth? Even it is something like half (I personally think more), the first Thatcher recession, entirely likely as business uncertainty and lack of investment will surely feed into the real economy and house prices tumble, how will the UK fare? But this time we are much weaker.

Fishing

OldKingCole said:

Housing in NZ is expensive, particularly around Auckland. In NZ money, of course. Having said that a much younger cousin asked my advice about emigrating there 12 or so years ago. I advised to go, he did and he’s never looked back.
I wisj I’d gone 60 years ago!

But I know somebody who emigrated there but was back a year later. He was bored out of his mind, despite being an outdoorsy person. And don't forget that there are more young Kiwis out of NZ than in it, or nearly so. Each to his own.

Personally if I emigrated, it would be somewhere English-speaking and wealthy, with better weather. Which basically means Sydney or California.

SouthamObserver

CarlottaVance said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Oh cheer up. We've seen the last (for a while at least) of the posh boy PMs and are heading for a sensible vicar's daughter - who won't stand any nonsense - ask the Police.....she's also been swift at dumping some baggage - pulling out of the EHCR for example....a year from now we could be looking back on this as a blessing in disguise....

Next year is when the Brexit-inspired cuts will kick in.

Charles

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

If there is an election it's very tempting to pay £3 and vote for the other candidate if it's someone who could pass for sane.

That let's out Clive 'back end of a goat' Lewis, but I'd vote for Owen Smith. Even though I think he's a dud, he's less of a dud than the Jezziah.

Now, more than any other time that I can remember, the country needs an opposition. People who pay £3 to vote for Corbyn in order to scupper Labour are playing pathetic party politics precisly when the government should be subjected to the most intense scrutiny, as it negotiates a deal that will shape our future and even whether the UK will continue to exist. On the other hand, paying £3 to vote against Corbyn would be the act of a patriot. I would urge as many people as possible to do it. :-)

Disagree. Keeping Corbyn in place destroys the Labour Party.

Longer term I think Britain would be healthier if it had a sane left party without the institutional links with the unions (they are legitimate interests, like many other organisations, but outrageous they should own and control one of the major political parties).

Blow up Labour and there is a change that LD/SDP2 could become the main party of opposition.

anotherDave

Leadsom coming up on on itv3 in a mo.

EDIT
Leadsom has landed.

MarqueeMark

blackburn63 said:

Not sure why anybody would expect Ukip to do well right now, the party is skint, rudderless and devoid of ideas beyond the EU.

If you were a bright young SPAD wannabe, looking to get on in politics, would you even give UKIP a moments thought in your career path? They still strike me as a party that folks end up at after serious disillusionment with another party, rather than as a go-to party of choice. That in itself means they won't attract these bright young things who bring energy and ideas.

Charles

SquareRoot said:

anotherDave said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Tim_B said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Nuts - come on back home to Georgia: the weather's better and it's much cheaper.

I have been canvassed for a job in NZ. Smallish city with good climate and the great outdoors on the doorstep.

A bit too much sunshine and optimism for me, you can only stand so much of that cr@p!

I like life with a bit of an edge and the possibility of misery. It is what keeps me here.

The SKY temperature map showed 45 degrees in Kuwait today. If you're looking for misery, Kuwait could be your spot!

The lack of culture would do my head in.. all those sheep and only NZ rugby to watch as a sport.. naah.. its on my bucket list to visit before I pop my clogs though

It's like Dorset from the 1950s. Lovely place to visit but wouldn't want to live there.

CarlottaVance

SouthamObserver said:

CarlottaVance said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

foxinsoxuk said:

On topic:

I would like to see Corbyn go the same way he got in.

Without being voted out by the membership there will always be a feeling of betrayal or stab in the back.

If the membership re-elects Corbyn then it is the end of Labour as a potential alternative.government. We would have a defacto one party state, albeit one party with its own internal opposition.

And at a time when the Tories are hugely vulnerable. The next Chancellor will be raising taxes and/or making even deeper spending cuts; while the Brexit deal is unlikely to bring immigration down in any significant way. What Tory Leavers promised voters is not going to happen. And Tory Leavers are likely to be a majority in May's cabinet. Can you imagine what a credible opposition could do with a Leave-dominated Treasury team, or defence team, or Home Office, or MoD? It would be open goal after open goal. Instead, Corbyn will give them a free pass and the green light to agree a Brexit deal that harms millions of ordinary people.

I couldn't agree more. The future looks bleak.

If I were younger, I would emigrate, but at my age I just have to put up with it as best that I can.

Oh cheer up. We've seen the last (for a while at least) of the posh boy PMs and are heading for a sensible vicar's daughter - who won't stand any nonsense - ask the Police.....she's also been swift at dumping some baggage - pulling out of the EHCR for example....a year from now we could be looking back on this as a blessing in disguise....

Next year is when the Brexit-inspired cuts will kick in.

You write that as though 'living within our means' is a bad thing - and May junked the 'balance the books by 2020' yesterday as well.....

IanB2

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

Moses_ said:

So all the Labour members voted remain. That's all a labour members except those members outside London, in the North east heartlands and errr ..... All of Wales except Cardiff which was a close vote anyway.

Someone is telling porkies.

(It was the Tories fault naturally....)

There is a big difference between a Labour member and a Labour voter. That's why Corbyn is in charge.

Labour 'members' are London centric......and at this rate, Labour 'voters' will end up that way too.....

I can't remember what proportion of Labour members are in London, but it was publicised during the last leadership election and I remember being surprised at how high it was. Interestingly reflected by my impression of the general pattern of local by-election results; there are always local factors of course, but it does seem that Labour has few problems in the Capital but isn't doing that well everywhere else (tonight's results follow this pattern). And of course London, but few other parts of England, voted Remain.

In politics as for some economic indicators, London appears to be going its own way.

SquareRoot

mrs May is now at 70% on that link two threads ago. looks like May v Leasdom.(17%)

Sandpit

PlatoSaid said:

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

They asked me I thought it was a bit odd. The filter question at the beginning asked if I'd ever been a member of X Party - I answered honestly and said Tory and Labour. I wouldn't put too much store in this poll unless then removed responses like mine.

You were a £3 member last year, rather than a full member? Trying to understand how representative the poll is, or if it's little more than a voodoo poll because of sampling errors.

blackburn63

@southam

You get worse, for everyone other than a few hysterical berks on the internet life goes on as normal, albeit with a broader smile on our faces.

A journo from something called Vice News rang me yesterday to say she'd heard the Jungle was moving from Calais to Dover. Has anybody ever heard such nonsense?

SouthamObserver

Charles said:

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Morning all. Another quiet day to come?

Do we know what type of Labour members were polled? Remember that there were four batches of members for the leadership election - the MPs and MEPs, the full party members, the union members and the £3 associate members. My guess would be that this poll only asked one of the four groups, and the second smallest group at that.

If there is an election it's very tempting to pay £3 and vote for the other candidate if it's someone who could pass for sane.

That let's out Clive 'back end of a goat' Lewis, but I'd vote for Owen Smith. Even though I think he's a dud, he's less of a dud than the Jezziah.

Now, more than any other time that I can remember, the country needs an opposition. People who pay £3 to vote for Corbyn in order to scupper Labour are playing pathetic party politics precisly when the government should be subjected to the most intense scrutiny, as it negotiates a deal that will shape our future and even whether the UK will continue to exist. On the other hand, paying £3 to vote against Corbyn would be the act of a patriot. I would urge as many people as possible to do it. :-)

Disagree. Keeping Corbyn in place destroys the Labour Party.

Longer term I think Britain would be healthier if it had a sane left party without the institutional links with the unions (they are legitimate interests, like many other organisations, but outrageous they should own and control one of the major political parties).

Blow up Labour and there is a change that LD/SDP2 could become the main party of opposition.

Of course you disagree, you are a Tory. But the next few years are pivotal ones for the UK. Indeed, in five years there's a strong chance the UK won't exist. Leaving it all to the Tories, without subjecting them to the detailed scrutiny a credible opposition can provide, is a surefire way to get a poor outcome. That won't affect the establishment, but it will have an impact on millions of ordinary voters.

david_herdson

Charles said:

edmundintokyo said:

The left need to move on and run Clive Lewis. WTF are they thinking?

Two thoughts:

(1) Why would they? There is no mechanism - even without members support - that can force Corbyn to step down. I suppose the NEC could expel him from the party, but that would seem extreme. If there is a chance he/the left would lose, why would he go?

(2) The 90/10 split of Remain voters looks fishy. I'd thought the Labour *voters* were close to 60/40. Now that could be (a) false recall (b) members are not representative of voters or (c) YouGov has an unbalanced sample. In any event you shouldn't just take at face value

Very likely (b), mostly. The split of Labour MPs would be even more one-sided, wouldn't it?

SquareRoot

This is on the BBC website, no idea why it makes me laugh so much but it does

https://youtu.be/vM1pvax-OTk