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  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Lennon said:

    Scott_P said:

    I would suggest one further twist in this whole saga.

    I still reckon Gove doesn't want to be PM. On that basis I reckon he is waiting for the right moment to pull out and effectively hand the win to May.

    Obviously I could easily be completely wrong but that is just the feeling I get.

    If he was as ruthless as it appears, he would have done it as soon as Boris officially announced he was quitting
    Unless he thinks that 'sooner done' is best for the country, and is waiting until it's him and May in the top 2, at which point he'll pull out and we can have a new PM in a couple of weeks, rather than waiting till September.

    Obviously in that scenario he'll get a heap load of shit from the membership for denying them a voice I would imagine, but I'm not sure if that'd bother him if he genuinely never wants to be PM anyway.
    Oh, really ? You believe that shit.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    Scott_P said:

    And another for the Brexiteers...

    @markmackinnon: Carney asks room of reporters, bankers whether any feel Bank of England's warnings about Brexit have not proven correct. Response is silence

    How can they say? With the exception of some turbulence which a blind man could have predicted, nothing he has claimed has yet come to pass. Not because he is necessarily wrong but because it is too early.

    Ask the question again in 6 months.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,080
    Mr. P, that is a bit like a bishop asking his congregation whether they think he's been a sinner.

    Mr. Meeks, it has been rather dramatic.

    As unexpected as Julian the Apostate becoming emperor, as ruthless as Septimius Severus crushing Niger and Albinus.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    I'm still reeling from an earlier thread revelation that Liberace was gay and now that Gove is Machiavelli

    Who knew?

    Next someone will out Elton John, Boy George and Tom Daley ?!? .. :astonished:
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    I'd prefer double crossing and straight talking to the gutless display of spinelessness which led to Gordon Brown's coronation.

    When I was rugby coaching, if a player wasn't performing I'd tell him he wasn't good enough and drop him. Nine times out of ten that player would always strive to over-perform to get back into the side and prove me wrong.

    It was the way I was treated as a player and my players expected the same. It was better for everyone concerned to be brutally honest so we picked the best side. It brought silverware at the end of every season.

    Ruthlessness bring success. And we're all still friends.

    In politics none of them are friends. So what's the point of keeping one's counsel.

    Gove did the right thing for the Tory team.

  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Gove likely to find he has just crowned May who will be less Brexit than Boris would have been.

    May said only that there was a need for "more Immigration control" not the same system for EU and Non -EU immigrants.

    Also May likely to appoint Hammond as Chancellor or Foreign Sec and maybe even keep Osborne in a top job.

    Could have PM, Chancellor and Foreign Sec as Remainers. :o
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    John_M said:

    I would suggest one further twist in this whole saga.

    I still reckon Gove doesn't want to be PM. On that basis I reckon he is waiting for the right moment to pull out and effectively hand the win to May.

    Obviously I could easily be completely wrong but that is just the feeling I get.

    Im wondering how long it is before the men in grey suits persuade the others to drop out. The only credible challenger to Boris has gone and presumably for the other four it is just a case of negotiating a decent cabinet role.

    Still quite cant fathom out Gove though. He dosent come across as Brutus, but then neither did Howe. Can't help thinking that there must be more to this than politics?
    I posted yesterday that Corbyn was a man of unimpeachable integrity and that's not always a virtue.

    Based on everything I've read, Gove is a man of unimpeachable principle, who has the courage of his convictions. That's not always a virtue either. He's shown little hesitation in serially stabbing Cameron and then Johnson.
    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    When he was Chief Whip, Gove did a mildly amusing "FU" sketch to celebrate Guido's site's tenth (?) anniversary?

    Must be still be available somewhere?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Boris -whom I like - played this week very badly.

    First, there was his look of shock and astonishment as he took in the news that LEAVE had actually won the referendum. That told a story different from what the public had been led to expect

    Secondly, He did a disappearing act, not taking his place in parliament and hiding, I guess from the MSM.

    Thirdly, he operated clandestinely and was secretive, and that let allies to fall away.

    All this proves to me that the main stream parties will never act in Britain's interest, that the Tories under May or Gove will never negotiate with the EU like they are from an independent nation, and that a party like UKIP is required to take this country forward; although UKIP itself needs to be under new management.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    GIN1138 said:

    I would suggest one further twist in this whole saga.

    I still reckon Gove doesn't want to be PM. On that basis I reckon he is waiting for the right moment to pull out and effectively hand the win to May.

    Obviously I could easily be completely wrong but that is just the feeling I get.

    I've been thinking that he is lining this up for May (or Leadsom) but looking at that interview maybe he really is going for it as the only politician who can really bring 100% BREXIT (rather than EEA)
    If he is 100% BREXIT, how is he different from farage ?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    The rupture in the Molotov-Ribentropp Pact comes close, albeit on a lesser scale.
    For brutality, perhaps Atlee's sacking of John Parker. "Not up to the job".
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    surbiton said:

    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.

    If Sarah Vine didn't realise David Cameron would resign if Leave won, she must have a brain the size of a pea. Cameron has charisma. Theresa May has charisma. Gove doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even get into the top two.

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    Stands on the chair and waves knickers in the air. Well, not exactly, but you get the drift.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    That is a must-read. Especially the third-to-last and penultimate paragraphs.
    Is Osborne behind this?
    Sssshhhhhhh!
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited June 2016
    Is TSE the third twin of Angela and Maria?

    I.E. The triplet.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,161
    JackW said:

    I'm still reeling from an earlier thread revelation that Liberace was gay and now that Gove is Machiavelli

    Who knew?

    Next someone will out Elton John, Boy George and Tom Daley ?!? .. :astonished:

    Don't worry, I won't tell anyone about your sojourns to the gay pleasure grounds of Auchentennach Castle..... oops

    titters :D
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,855
    MikeK said:

    Boris -whom I like - played this week very badly.

    First, there was his look of shock and astonishment as he took in the news that LEAVE had actually won the referendum. That told a story different from what the public had been led to expect

    Secondly, He did a disappearing act, not taking his place in parliament and hiding, I guess from the MSM.

    Thirdly, he operated clandestinely and was secretive, and that let allies to fall away.

    All this proves to me that the main stream parties will never act in Britain's interest, that the Tories under May or Gove will never negotiate with the EU like they are from an independent nation, and that a party like UKIP is required to take this country forward; although UKIP itself needs to be under new management.

    I don't quite see how your first three points add up to 'We need UKIP' - you've listed one notably mercurial politician not acting to his own advantage since the leave vote, and say that means none of the other parties will act in Britain's interests.

    And don't fall into the mistake of your opponents and pretending UKIP is not a main stream party - you are. It's the same trap as dismissing media one doesn't like as 'mainstream', it's just a label.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    What a bonus for political betting these last few days have been.Exciting and interesting times indeed.Best to trade out of any Angela Eagle winnings.
  • paulyorkpaulyork Posts: 50
    surbiton said:

    John_M said:

    I would suggest one further twist in this whole saga.

    I still reckon Gove doesn't want to be PM. On that basis I reckon he is waiting for the right moment to pull out and effectively hand the win to May.

    Obviously I could easily be completely wrong but that is just the feeling I get.

    Im wondering how long it is before the men in grey suits persuade the others to drop out. The only credible challenger to Boris has gone and presumably for the other four it is just a case of negotiating a decent cabinet role.

    Still quite cant fathom out Gove though. He dosent come across as Brutus, but then neither did Howe. Can't help thinking that there must be more to this than politics?
    I posted yesterday that Corbyn was a man of unimpeachable integrity and that's not always a virtue.

    Based on everything I've read, Gove is a man of unimpeachable principle, who has the courage of his convictions. That's not always a virtue either. He's shown little hesitation in serially stabbing Cameron and then Johnson.
    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.
    I definitely see Mrs G pulling the strings here. not an attractive prospect.
  • Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    So, if that should have made a difference, you are saying that this country's entire destiny should have been dictated by the prospective actions of 237 of its most despicable and disgusting inhabitants?

    No

    I am saying, as I said all along, that the Leave campaign was explicitly xenophobic, and that their win has legitimised these criminal acts in the minds of those committing them

    And the Brexiteers who cheered so loudly are in denial about the cost of their "victory"
    Correlation is not causation.

    Our politicians were burying their heads in the sand about the issue that a very significant part of the population is hugely exercised - and for good reason. It has forced their housing costs up and wages down.

    Frankly if this referendum had not made the penny drop in a peaceful manner I dread to think what would have happened to the Queens Peace over the next 20 years.

    If some neanderthals have decided the current climate means they think they can get away with attacking minorities then that is to be condemned and for knacker to deal with. But I suspect it is a vicarage tea party compared with what I fear may have happened, or whatdemagogue may have got into power in. a few years if the issue had been left to fester.

    Thanks to the good sense of the British public and refusal to be intimidated by the threats of doom against them we have been delivered both from colonisation by a supranational and ruinous unelected socialist government and from a ruinous and divisive social policy
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    JackW said:

    I'm still reeling from an earlier thread revelation that Liberace was gay and now that Gove is Machiavelli

    Who knew?

    Next someone will out Elton John, Boy George and Tom Daley ?!? .. :astonished:

    And then, only then Charlie falconer will resign.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    1993 - A Stab In The Dark:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F212quQ1KI
    2016 - A stab in the back....

    Really can't believe what Gove has done today. The tosspot Thatcherite Scottish Tory Boy twat that rubbed everyone up the wrong way on a Channel 4 comedy programme in the early 90s always looked a wrong 'un!

    This was a comedy programme?

    Some things don´t change, do they?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,855
    edited June 2016

    htps://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/748557182317301764

    Is there a character limit on that box? Why would you give people such an option? I happen to know from people who set up surveys and the like you want as few opportunities for people to vomit forth their unvarnished thoughts as possible; other than any other considerations, it's usually hard to analyze .
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    Fenster said:

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    I'd prefer double crossing and straight talking to the gutless display of spinelessness which led to Gordon Brown's coronation.

    When I was rugby coaching, if a player wasn't performing I'd tell him he wasn't good enough and drop him. Nine times out of ten that player would always strive to over-perform to get back into the side and prove me wrong.

    It was the way I was treated as a player and my players expected the same. It was better for everyone concerned to be brutally honest so we picked the best side. It brought silverware at the end of every season.

    Ruthlessness bring success. And we're all still friends.

    In politics none of them are friends. So what's the point of keeping one's counsel.

    Gove did the right thing for the Tory team.
    You sound as though you are assuming that had Gove not run, Johnson would have had the leadership in the bag or at least had a good chance of getting it. I am not convinced that is so.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,809
    GO VE !
    ("Victory in Europe" for our youngsters)
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Gove likely to find he has just crowned May who will be less Brexit than Boris would have been.

    May said only that there was a need for "more Immigration control" not the same system for EU and Non -EU immigrants.

    Also May likely to appoint Hammond as Chancellor or Foreign Sec and maybe even keep Osborne in a top job.

    Could have PM, Chancellor and Foreign Sec as Remainers. :o

    We have to look after the 48%. It's that simple. Leavers had diverse motives that are likely to be hard to pin down. Remain is simple; they wanted to cling to nurse (whether that's due to inertia, fear or affection doesn't really matter).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,855



    Could have PM, Chancellor and Foreign Sec as Remainers. :o

    They're all leavers now - none of them would be so hardcore for Remain they will destroy themselves to pursue it now.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,418
    kle4 said:

    htps://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/748557182317301764

    Is there a character limit on that box? Why would you give people such an option? I happen to know from people who set up surveys and the like you want as few opportunities for people to vomit forth their unvarnished thoughts as possible; other than any other considerations, it's usually hard to analyze .
    Not sure. They accepted my comments.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Email from Andrew Feldman to party members:

    This year’s Conservative Party Conference will mark a new chapter in our history. I will be stepping down as Chairman in the coming months, and this Conference will be the last that I am involved in organising. I plan to make it memorable.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Has the old gove cartoon been posted about him saving the planet... it's a corker
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,161

    Email from Andrew Feldman to party members:

    This year’s Conservative Party Conference will mark a new chapter in our history. I will be stepping down as Chairman in the coming months, and this Conference will be the last that I am involved in organising. I plan to make it memorable.

    Please let it be an Elvis impersonator.... :D
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29394697

    They all get their comeuppance.
    Lol - for Wales Mark - your soul for Wales!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,295
    John_M said:

    Gove likely to find he has just crowned May who will be less Brexit than Boris would have been.

    May said only that there was a need for "more Immigration control" not the same system for EU and Non -EU immigrants.

    Also May likely to appoint Hammond as Chancellor or Foreign Sec and maybe even keep Osborne in a top job.

    Could have PM, Chancellor and Foreign Sec as Remainers. :o

    We have to look after the 48%. It's that simple. Leavers had diverse motives that are likely to be hard to pin down. Remain is simple; they wanted to cling to nurse (whether that's due to inertia, fear or affection doesn't really matter).
    Disagree. Boris would have been less Brexit than May.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    JackW said:

    I'm still reeling from an earlier thread revelation that Liberace was gay and now that Gove is Machiavelli

    Who knew?

    Next someone will out Elton John, Boy George and Tom Daley ?!? .. :astonished:

    I genuinely had to explain to my grandfather that Dale Winton was gay.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    So, if that should have made a difference, you are saying that this country's entire destiny should have been dictated by the prospective actions of 237 of its most despicable and disgusting inhabitants?

    No

    I am saying, as I said all along, that the Leave campaign was explicitly xenophobic, and that their win has legitimised these criminal acts in the minds of those committing them

    And the Brexiteers who cheered so loudly are in denial about the cost of their "victory"
    No it wasn't.

    People like that just exist, and behave like that. There'd be ten times that spike in hate crimes if Germany beat us on penalties in the Euro finals (well done Iceland!) The trick is for the police and courts to keep on top of them, not to let them dictate our macropolitical destiny.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    Ishmael_X said:

    Scott_P said:

    And with the economy booming, the Brexiteers can also pretend this isn't happening

    @krishgm: More than 300 hate crime incidents compared to a weekly average of 63 new figures from the National Police Chiefs' Council show

    So, if that should have made a difference, you are saying that this country's entire destiny should have been dictated by the prospective actions of 237 of its most despicable and disgusting inhabitants?
    No. Brexit should should have been argued on it's merits rather than whipping up Xenophobia.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Has the old gove cartoon been posted about him saving the planet... it's a corker

    https://twitter.com/robertshrimsley/status/748441365818777600
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,615

    Email from Andrew Feldman to party members:

    This year’s Conservative Party Conference will mark a new chapter in our history. I will be stepping down as Chairman in the coming months, and this Conference will be the last that I am involved in organising. I plan to make it memorable.

    is ANYONE in politics not resigning this week', other than JC?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    Thanks and that's the one...thought it was longer.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Afternoon folks. Since I last posted around this time last week when I suggested Leave were still very much in it based on the nature and quantity of hitherto previously unseen voters turning up at my local polling station I see there have been a few minor developments. In the latest I have to say I have no idea how Tory members will react. However personally I am far from impressed by Gove's behaviour and my vote together with in all probabilty the other two members of my immediate family who are members of the Tory party will now go to Leadsom in the admittedly unlikely event she makes it to the final run-off.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    JackW said:

    I'm still reeling from an earlier thread revelation that Liberace was gay and now that Gove is Machiavelli

    Who knew?

    Next someone will out Elton John, Boy George and Tom Daley ?!? .. :astonished:

    I have doubts about Rock Hudson and Russ Conway
  • wasdwasd Posts: 276

    Email from Andrew Feldman to party members:

    This year’s Conservative Party Conference will mark a new chapter in our history. I will be stepping down as Chairman in the coming months, and this Conference will be the last that I am involved in organising. I plan to make it memorable.

    Red Wedding Conference?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,418
    JohnO said:

    Stands on the chair and waves knickers in the air. Well, not exactly, but you get the drift.
    Calm yourself and reflect on that Michael Gove is an MP representing Surrey
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,784

    Jonathan said:



    I tuned out of politics after Boris, what has Jezza done today (shudders)?

    He's attacked anti-semitism, saying that being Jewish doesn't mean you are responsible for Netanyahu any more than being Muslim means that you're responsible for Islamic groups. Judge for yourself: the key extract is in the blog here, with Chakrabarti's comments.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/30/brexit-live-theresa-may-and-boris-johnson-set-to-announce-leadership-bids

    It's been (falsely) claimed that he compared Israel to ISIS, and I suspect that some of the reactions are based on that.

    There's a separate issue that an MP in the audience says she was insulted by someone else in the audience and Corbyn didn't intervene - I don't know the details of that.

    I am sure it's all a big misunderstanding. Jeremy is a polite, decent man. Repeat to fade (not a cult mix)
    https://twitter.com/euanmccolm/status/748513105710321664
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    "...over three quarters of Conservative-held constituencies voted to Leave, and seven in ten Labour-held constituencies.

    Although Labour as a party is very much more favourable to the EU than the Conservative party, the same cannot be said of the constituencies it holds."

    https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/most-labour-mps-represent-a-constituency-that-voted-leave-36f13210f5c6

    "421 out of 574 English and Welsh Westminster
    constituencies probably voted to Leave"

    Not in the Independent Republic of London
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Scott_P said:

    Has the old gove cartoon been posted about him saving the planet... it's a corker

    https://twitter.com/robertshrimsley/status/748441365818777600
    Thanks... love it as much as that Guardian front page... now there's an idea
  • These times we're living in; they're far too interesting
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    John_N4 said:

    surbiton said:

    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.

    If Sarah Vine didn't realise David Cameron would resign if Leave won, she must have a brain the size of a pea. Cameron has charisma. Theresa May has charisma. Gove doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even get into the top two.

    The weird thing about Mr Cameron's resignation, is that he insisted on the 'please don't go' letter from everyone before he resigned. What was the point of that?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,855
    edited June 2016

    Great works are going to be produced in future generations about the events of the last week. It has been utterly compelling drama with the most extraordinary twists.

    Silver lining in every cloud.
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Should 172 MPs be able to subvert the will of the 500,000 party members

    Yes or No

    No

    Yes. We elect representatives to take decisions on our behalf, not to commit us to a course of action from what might have been years ago, when the situation may have changed dramatically, particualrly when the win of those members cannot be assumed to be the same now as it was then (though it could be so).
    Those 172 MPs are in parliament to serve their constituents.
    Yes they are - and it is their responsibility to decide how best to serve their constituents, and if their constituents don't like how they do it they can vote them out. There is no way for them to reliably know what would be most popular with the majority of their constituents, and even if they did, that might not be what was best for them.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    paulyork said:

    surbiton said:

    John_M said:

    I would suggest one further twist in this whole saga.

    I still reckon Gove doesn't want to be PM. On that basis I reckon he is waiting for the right moment to pull out and effectively hand the win to May.

    Obviously I could easily be completely wrong but that is just the feeling I get.

    Im wondering how long it is before the men in grey suits persuade the others to drop out. The only credible challenger to Boris has gone and presumably for the other four it is just a case of negotiating a decent cabinet role.

    Still quite cant fathom out Gove though. He dosent come across as Brutus, but then neither did Howe. Can't help thinking that there must be more to this than politics?
    I posted yesterday that Corbyn was a man of unimpeachable integrity and that's not always a virtue.

    Based on everything I've read, Gove is a man of unimpeachable principle, who has the courage of his convictions. That's not always a virtue either. He's shown little hesitation in serially stabbing Cameron and then Johnson.
    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.
    I definitely see Mrs G pulling the strings here. not an attractive prospect.
    Read the Barchester novels - Mrs Proudie is back and like her hubby, Gove is a very little man.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    John_M said:

    Gove likely to find he has just crowned May who will be less Brexit than Boris would have been.

    May said only that there was a need for "more Immigration control" not the same system for EU and Non -EU immigrants.

    Also May likely to appoint Hammond as Chancellor or Foreign Sec and maybe even keep Osborne in a top job.

    Could have PM, Chancellor and Foreign Sec as Remainers. :o

    We have to look after the 48%. It's that simple. Leavers had diverse motives that are likely to be hard to pin down. Remain is simple; they wanted to cling to nurse (whether that's due to inertia, fear or affection doesn't really matter).
    do you think a nurse's uniform would help Ms May's chances?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,855

    John_N4 said:

    surbiton said:

    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.

    If Sarah Vine didn't realise David Cameron would resign if Leave won, she must have a brain the size of a pea. Cameron has charisma. Theresa May has charisma. Gove doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even get into the top two.

    The weird thing about Mr Cameron's resignation, is that he insisted on the 'please don't go' letter from everyone before he resigned. What was the point of that?
    Did he insist upon that? I assumed it was done because, particularly with Leavers, they wanted to be able to pretend they hadn't thought he should go, that they were loyal party members.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,923

    These times we're living in; they're far too interesting

    May, you will lead in interesting times.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    John_N4 said:

    Fenster said:

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    I'd prefer double crossing and straight talking to the gutless display of spinelessness which led to Gordon Brown's coronation.

    When I was rugby coaching, if a player wasn't performing I'd tell him he wasn't good enough and drop him. Nine times out of ten that player would always strive to over-perform to get back into the side and prove me wrong.

    It was the way I was treated as a player and my players expected the same. It was better for everyone concerned to be brutally honest so we picked the best side. It brought silverware at the end of every season.

    Ruthlessness bring success. And we're all still friends.

    In politics none of them are friends. So what's the point of keeping one's counsel.

    Gove did the right thing for the Tory team.
    You sound as though you are assuming that had Gove not run, Johnson would have had the leadership in the bag or at least had a good chance of getting it. I am not convinced that is so.
    No, I'm convinced Gove thought Boris would've wilted under the glare of the media. That he would have dissembled and back-tracked over promises and resiled over freedom of movement.

    Gove likely thinks he'll do a better job in the campaign and will be more forceful in forcing his rivals (with May the likely winner) into sticking with pre-Brexit goals.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,340

    Lennon said:

    In fact if either Gove or May get the gig - it's hard to see past Leadsom as CoftE surely - her experience puts her head and shoulders above any other potential candidate - or am I missing something about May's team / who her 'Osbourne' is behind the scenes that she needs to reward.

    TBH Andrea Leadsom is politically very inexperienced to go straight to Chancellor. Phil Hammond would be my guess, someone to calm the markets and also someone who knows all about the detail of departmental spending. Andrea Leadsom could be on the Brexit team, or First Sec to the Treasury.
    BIS is where she would so well IMO, and it removes Javid who hasn't been particularly inspiring.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited June 2016

    Jonathan said:



    I tuned out of politics after Boris, what has Jezza done today (shudders)?

    He's attacked anti-semitism, saying that being Jewish doesn't mean you are responsible for Netanyahu any more than being Muslim means that you're responsible for Islamic groups. Judge for yourself: the key extract is in the blog here, with Chakrabarti's comments.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/30/brexit-live-theresa-may-and-boris-johnson-set-to-announce-leadership-bids

    It's been (falsely) claimed that he compared Israel to ISIS, and I suspect that some of the reactions are based on that.

    There's a separate issue that an MP in the audience says she was insulted by someone else in the audience and Corbyn didn't intervene - I don't know the details of that.

    I am sure it's all a big misunderstanding. Jeremy is a polite, decent man. Repeat to fade (not a cult mix)
    https://twitter.com/euanmccolm/status/748513105710321664
    This man is simply not able - he lacks basic competence as well as basic decency by the looks of it. Resign.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,418
    Blimey.

    Laura K

    Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    kle4 said:

    John_N4 said:

    surbiton said:

    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.

    If Sarah Vine didn't realise David Cameron would resign if Leave won, she must have a brain the size of a pea. Cameron has charisma. Theresa May has charisma. Gove doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even get into the top two.

    The weird thing about Mr Cameron's resignation, is that he insisted on the 'please don't go' letter from everyone before he resigned. What was the point of that?
    Did he insist upon that? I assumed it was done because, particularly with Leavers, they wanted to be able to pretend they hadn't thought he should go, that they were loyal party members.
    I think Tim Shipman reported it being hawked around in the last week of the campaign. (and no-one signing it) It's all very odd.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    John_M said:

    Gove likely to find he has just crowned May who will be less Brexit than Boris would have been.

    May said only that there was a need for "more Immigration control" not the same system for EU and Non -EU immigrants.

    Also May likely to appoint Hammond as Chancellor or Foreign Sec and maybe even keep Osborne in a top job.

    Could have PM, Chancellor and Foreign Sec as Remainers. :o

    We have to look after the 48%. It's that simple. Leavers had diverse motives that are likely to be hard to pin down. Remain is simple; they wanted to cling to nurse (whether that's due to inertia, fear or affection doesn't really matter).
    do you think a nurse's uniform would help Ms May's chances?

    I'll be...I'll be right back. Just going for a lie down.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Lowlander said:

    Oops, looks like Angela Eagle has made a little error.

    https://twitter.com/DougieMacM/status/748542937139679232

    She is losing support anyway. Wet lettuce !
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @NinjaEconomics: A bank in Singapore has become the first in the world to suspend loans for the purchase of homes in London. https://t.co/GC9h0pIwk9
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Blimey.

    Laura K

    Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10

    Sounds right to me... it's also worth considering that a Gove PM would have Mr Cummings doing exactly that. Surely many tories don't want that???
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,662

    Blimey.

    Laura K

    Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10

    Oh my

    Dominic Cummings near number 10. That's mental.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    At this rate it will Theresa 100%, the Ghastly One 0%.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    The weird thing about Mr Cameron's resignation, is that he insisted on the 'please don't go' letter from everyone before he resigned. What was the point of that?

    Setting up his stall for the history books, obviously.

    Cameron always was in marketing. Even of shoddy goods.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,418
    Blimey. Look who is complaining about BBC bias

    @msmithsonpb: BBC News channel coverage of CON contest is one great Theresa May fest. When are the others like Leadson going to get a look in?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,662

    Blimey.

    Laura K

    Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10

    Sounds right to me... it's also worth considering that a Gove PM would have Mr Cummings doing exactly that. Surely many tories don't want that???
    Who wants that other than Farage and Gove ?!
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey.

    Laura K

    Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10

    Oh my

    Dominic Cummings near number 10. That's mental.
    Hmm, think Steve Hilton and multiply by 20,000.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,340

    Email from Andrew Feldman to party members:

    This year’s Conservative Party Conference will mark a new chapter in our history. I will be stepping down as Chairman in the coming months, and this Conference will be the last that I am involved in organising. I plan to make it memorable.

    Almost sounds like Welder Frey.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Interesting quetion for Pb siteowner.Would you back or lay Andea at the price?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,662
    JohnO said:

    At this rate it will Theresa 100%, the Ghastly One 0%.

    Dominic Cummings in No 10. A thought to make you shiver in the night.

    Not my perfect pick but surely has to be May ! (This is hope, not betting)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,615
    murali_s said:

    Jonathan said:



    I tuned out of politics after Boris, what has Jezza done today (shudders)?

    He's attacked anti-semitism, saying that being Jewish doesn't mean you are responsible for Netanyahu any more than being Muslim means that you're responsible for Islamic groups. Judge for yourself: the key extract is in the blog here, with Chakrabarti's comments.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/30/brexit-live-theresa-may-and-boris-johnson-set-to-announce-leadership-bids

    It's been (falsely) claimed that he compared Israel to ISIS, and I suspect that some of the reactions are based on that.

    There's a separate issue that an MP in the audience says she was insulted by someone else in the audience and Corbyn didn't intervene - I don't know the details of that.

    I am sure it's all a big misunderstanding. Jeremy is a polite, decent man. Repeat to fade (not a cult mix)
    https://twitter.com/euanmccolm/status/748513105710321664
    This man is simply not able - he lacks basic competence as well as basic decency by the looks of it. Resign.
    Any Labour members here think that JC shouldn't resign now?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,923
    Scott_P said:

    @NinjaEconomics: A bank in Singapore has become the first in the world to suspend loans for the purchase of homes in London. https://t.co/GC9h0pIwk9

    If this is a portent for the London property market, the fall out will be severe for our financial system.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    MaxPB said:

    Email from Andrew Feldman to party members:

    This year’s Conservative Party Conference will mark a new chapter in our history. I will be stepping down as Chairman in the coming months, and this Conference will be the last that I am involved in organising. I plan to make it memorable.

    Almost sounds like Welder Frey.
    "The Johnsons send their regards"
  • MaxPB said:
    Is this an insight into why we can't trust online polls?
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Blimey. Look who is complaining about BBC bias

    @msmithsonpb: BBC News channel coverage of CON contest is one great Theresa May fest. When are the others like Leadson going to get a look in?

    Has he a betting position to disclose???
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    edited June 2016
    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Hammond was lined up to be Chief Secretary to the Treasury in 2010 if no Coalition.

    He declared very early for Theresa so must have a very good chance of Chancellor - especially as a Leave supporter would be in charge of the Govt dept doing the negotiations.

    Has Hammond declared? Guido suggests he hasn't.
    Apologies - read it too quickly - Stephen Hammond has declared for May - not Philip.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    SeanT said:

    John_N4 said:

    Fenster said:

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    I'd prefer double crossing and straight talking to the gutless display of spinelessness which led to Gordon Brown's coronation.

    When I was rugby coaching, if a player wasn't performing I'd tell him he wasn't good enough and drop him. Nine times out of ten that player would always strive to over-perform to get back into the side and prove me wrong.

    It was the way I was treated as a player and my players expected the same. It was better for everyone concerned to be brutally honest so we picked the best side. It brought silverware at the end of every season.

    Ruthlessness bring success. And we're all still friends.

    In politics none of them are friends. So what's the point of keeping one's counsel.

    Gove did the right thing for the Tory team.
    You sound as though you are assuming that had Gove not run, Johnson would have had the leadership in the bag or at least had a good chance of getting it. I am not convinced that is so.
    But the point s good: Bojo really WAS underperforming, very badly, at the worst time. The week after the vote was crucial. He needed to be out there, on TV, visible, and in the Commons, explaining how great it all was, reassuring everyong, being Churchill in the Blitz, cheering us all up. That's his USP.

    Yet he vanished, and he vanished so as to conspire. And then he wrote that terrible column, which he then disowned. At the most crucial moment, he was found very badly wanting.

    It's a shame, he is a highly clever man. But if he flakes out in tough situations, do we want us leading us during Brexit? Nope.
    It won't do. We hoped for Boris, a wonderful cheerful Falstaff with brains. Now we have a choice between a witch and a bespectacled serial killer.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,923
    SeanT said:

    May wants Single Market, and Free Movement but ONLY for people with job offers. Seems perfectly fair to me. It stops entire Romanian families (I'm sorry to be specific) coming over here and sleeping under the North Circular.

    How exactly? Unless we're also going to require tourist visas for Romanians which is not remotely on the cards.
  • annakannak Posts: 14
    felix said:

    paulyork said:

    surbiton said:

    John_M said:

    I would suggest one further twist in this whole saga.

    I still reckon Gove doesn't want to be PM. On that basis I reckon he is waiting for the right moment to pull out and effectively hand the win to May.

    Obviously I could easily be completely wrong but that is just the feeling I get.

    Im wondering how long it is before the men in grey suits persuade the others to drop out. The only credible challenger to Boris has gone and presumably for the other four it is just a case of negotiating a decent cabinet role.

    Still quite cant fathom out Gove though. He dosent come across as Brutus, but then neither did Howe. Can't help thinking that there must be more to this than politics?
    I posted yesterday that Corbyn was a man of unimpeachable integrity and that's not always a virtue.

    Based on everything I've read, Gove is a man of unimpeachable principle, who has the courage of his convictions. That's not always a virtue either. He's shown little hesitation in serially stabbing Cameron and then Johnson.
    He has a wife behind him just as ambitious as she is. She also wants to live in No.10 as Sam has done.
    I definitely see Mrs G pulling the strings here. not an attractive prospect.
    Read the Barchester novels - Mrs Proudie is back and like her hubby, Gove is a very little man.
    I think Mrs. G will become Cherie mark II
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,262
    So I think we know May is the continuity candidate. Isn't the question now which candidate betrayed Boris throws his weight behind? Leadsom? Someone as yet undeclared?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey.

    Laura K Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10

    Oh my Dominic Cummings near number 10. That's mental.
    Come back, Boris. All is forgiven!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,262

    SeanT said:

    John_N4 said:

    Fenster said:

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    I'd prefer double crossing and straight talking to the gutless display of spinelessness which led to Gordon Brown's coronation.

    When I was rugby coaching, if a player wasn't performing I'd tell him he wasn't good enough and drop him. Nine times out of ten that player would always strive to over-perform to get back into the side and prove me wrong.

    It was the way I was treated as a player and my players expected the same. It was better for everyone concerned to be brutally honest so we picked the best side. It brought silverware at the end of every season.

    Ruthlessness bring success. And we're all still friends.

    In politics none of them are friends. So what's the point of keeping one's counsel.

    Gove did the right thing for the Tory team.
    You sound as though you are assuming that had Gove not run, Johnson would have had the leadership in the bag or at least had a good chance of getting it. I am not convinced that is so.
    But the point s good: Bojo really WAS underperforming, very badly, at the worst time. The week after the vote was crucial. He needed to be out there, on TV, visible, and in the Commons, explaining how great it all was, reassuring everyong, being Churchill in the Blitz, cheering us all up. That's his USP.

    Yet he vanished, and he vanished so as to conspire. And then he wrote that terrible column, which he then disowned. At the most crucial moment, he was found very badly wanting.

    It's a shame, he is a highly clever man. But if he flakes out in tough situations, do we want us leading us during Brexit? Nope.
    It won't do. We hoped for Boris, a wonderful cheerful Falstaff with brains. Now we have a choice between a witch and a bespectacled serial killer.
    Is Gove actually standing? Not a chance surely.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2016
    I can't see any Labour leader being able to defeat May in a general election. She's like Thatcher II.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Jonathan said:



    I tuned out of politics after Boris, what has Jezza done today (shudders)?

    He's attacked anti-semitism, saying that being Jewish doesn't mean you are responsible for Netanyahu any more than being Muslim means that you're responsible for Islamic groups. Judge for yourself: the key extract is in the blog here, with Chakrabarti's comments.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/30/brexit-live-theresa-may-and-boris-johnson-set-to-announce-leadership-bids

    It's been (falsely) claimed that he compared Israel to ISIS, and I suspect that some of the reactions are based on that.

    There's a separate issue that an MP in the audience says she was insulted by someone else in the audience and Corbyn didn't intervene - I don't know the details of that.
    I think there are many whose position is that Israel can do no wrong. In fact, any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. I cannot understand what the fuss is if , as reported, he said what he said.

    "Jewish reporters who were there are very clear about what they heard. "

    So, how come non-Jewish reporters did not hear that ? That is the implication of the above sentence.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    I'm still reeling from an earlier thread revelation that Liberace was gay and now that Gove is Machiavelli

    Who knew?

    Next someone will out Elton John, Boy George and Tom Daley ?!? .. :astonished:

    I genuinely had to explain to my grandfather that Dale Winton was gay.
    Oh my God .... really ... Dale Winton !!

    The world has gone made.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    JohnO said:

    At this rate it will Theresa 100%, the Ghastly One 0%.

    I certainly hope so.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,161
    MikeL said:

    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Hammond was lined up to be Chief Secretary to the Treasury in 2010 if no Coalition.

    He declared very early for Theresa so must have a very good chance of Chancellor - especially as a Leave supporter would be in charge of the Govt dept doing the negotiations.

    Has Hammond declared? Guido suggests he hasn't.
    Apologies - read it too quickly - Stephen Hammond has declared for May - not Philip.

    No problem, I initially thought that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,923
    JohnO said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey.

    Laura K

    Several sources say Gove quit because Johnson wouldn't agree to @odysseanproject, Dominic Cummings taking senior role in No 10

    Oh my

    Dominic Cummings near number 10. That's mental.
    Hmm, think Steve Hilton and multiply by 20,000.
    Talking of Hilton, his stab in the back of Cameron in the days leading up to the referendum must rank pretty highly in the betrayal stakes.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,418
    Theresa May and Stephen Crabb have both agreed that if they become PM, they will offer me a senior Number 10 role.

    I'm hoping for Number 10 Chief of Staff or Director of Communications, just think of all the subtle pop music references in their speeches.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    SeanT said:

    John_N4 said:

    Fenster said:

    Can anyone think of a more ruthless political double-crossing? I have to say that I can't.

    I'd prefer double crossing and straight talking to the gutless display of spinelessness which led to Gordon Brown's coronation.

    When I was rugby coaching, if a player wasn't performing I'd tell him he wasn't good enough and drop him. Nine times out of ten that player would always strive to over-perform to get back into the side and prove me wrong.

    It was the way I was treated as a player and my players expected the same. It was better for everyone concerned to be brutally honest so we picked the best side. It brought silverware at the end of every season.

    Ruthlessness bring success. And we're all still friends.

    In politics none of them are friends. So what's the point of keeping one's counsel.

    Gove did the right thing for the Tory team.
    You sound as though you are assuming that had Gove not run, Johnson would have had the leadership in the bag or at least had a good chance of getting it. I am not convinced that is so.
    But the point s good: Bojo really WAS underperforming, very badly, at the worst time. The week after the vote was crucial. He needed to be out there, on TV, visible, and in the Commons, explaining how great it all was, reassuring everyong, being Churchill in the Blitz, cheering us all up. That's his USP.

    Yet he vanished, and he vanished so as to conspire. And then he wrote that terrible column, which he then disowned. At the most crucial moment, he was found very badly wanting.

    It's a shame, he is a highly clever man. But if he flakes out in tough situations, do we want us leading us during Brexit? Nope.
    It won't do. We hoped for Boris, a wonderful cheerful Falstaff with brains. Now we have a choice between a witch and a bespectacled serial killer.
    Lol - didn't know Theresa wore specs.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    AndyJS said:

    I can't see any Labour leader being able to defeat May in a general election. She's like Thatcher II.

    I really don't see her like that at all. I'm baffled she polls so well.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Gove's intervention has probably ensured May's victory.

    Gonna love the puns for PM May.

    "May the force be with you."

    "May - you live in interesting times."

    etc
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,161

    Theresa May and Stephen Crabb have both agreed that if they become PM, they will offer me a senior Number 10 role.

    I'm hoping for Number 10 Chief of Staff or Director of Communications, just think of all the subtle pop music references in their speeches.

    Tea boy. ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,855

    Theresa May and Stephen Crabb have both agreed that if they become PM, they will offer me a senior Number 10 role.

    I'm hoping for Number 10 Chief of Staff or Director of Communications, just think of all the subtle pop music references in their speeches.

    Is the world ready?
  • Another reason I am also very relieved about this exit vote is because a vote for union with the EU would have led, over the next century, to exactly the same problems that the act of Union with Ireland did in 1801, and to the British people deciding on exactly the same solution to end it that the Irish people did, at some point in the next century.

    Had Irish MPs and Lords not been successfully threatened and bribed into voting their own parliament out of existence, it would have remained and stood side by side with Australias, Canadas etc. as they formed and Ireland would undoubtably have become a key Dominion, and would now be, like Australia and Canada a member of the Commonwealth with HM Queen as constitutional head of state and little if any of the blood that was spilled after 1801, and alas is still being spilled (although thankfully at a far slower rate than even 20 years ago), would have been spilled.

    We have had a very very lucky escape, because the British electorate, unlike the Irish Parliamentarians, said NO.
This discussion has been closed.