As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
? The country voted Leave. Not Remain. Live with it.
Define Leave
We seem to have a panoply of positions on the Leave side that range from no negotiated single market access and no FoM all the way through to EUlite. So whilst 17 million were marking a cross against a single word I very much doubt any of them had a coherent view on what it really meant (by coherent I mean shared). So now we have posturing UKIP (with Farage doing his best to smooth our negotiation path) and a cowed Tory party that in parts seems to wish this whole thing would go away. Very much like the England football team - no post qualification plan, no clear strategy. No wonder the "soft" leavers (of which I'm sure there are a good many) are worried and a little remorseful. To me it seems like a god-awful cocktail of incompetence and hubris. (quote from a previous post of mine)
Bundestag seems to be going ballistic about the trade deal between Canada and the EU.
Junker has told German Parliament it has nothing to do with them and is an EU matter so butt out. Germans not taking well to being slapped down and heavily criticising Junker
They should have supported Dave when he said no to Junker. We'd probably still be in the EU and they wouldn't be staring down the barrel of the gun of break up.
This is the antithesis of the Diadochi. There were a dozen or so brilliant, intelligent, ruthless, bold men (and women) all clamouring for power when Alexander died.
Poor Labour. They all want someone to charge, but nobody wants to lead it.
My interpretation is that both Angela Eagle and Tom Watson want to enter the contest against Corbyn, but neither wants to be the one who formally starts the challenge.
You'd have thought the plotters would have sorted this out before the synchronised resignations and vote of no confidence, but heigh-ho...
I think Sarah Smith's summary on the BBC News pretty much gets the Scottish picture right (and she is a strong anti-SNP advocate).
Either Nicola gets a deal and keeps Scotland in the UK while the rest of the UK leaves and comes back a hero. Or she can't get agreement on a deal and has an overwhelming mandate for a second referendum.
It's win/win.
Spain and France's statements today (from their doomed and soon to be replaced leaders) only hasten the time scale on a second referendum.
its always a victory.
but really shes in a corner of her own painting.
EU rules cant be bent so a deal is an outside hope whether in or out of the UK. Likewise Ive yet to hear an argument why an organisation in crisis would want Scotland at this time.
This is the antithesis of the Diadochi. There were a dozen or so brilliant, intelligent, ruthless, bold men (and women) all clamouring for power when Alexander died.
Poor Labour. They all want someone to charge, but nobody wants to lead it.
UK Labour needs their own Kezia Dugdale. Someone so utterly bereft of intellect that they do not understand the sh*tstorm they are walking into.
My interpretation is that both Angela Eagle and Tom Watson want to enter the contest against Corbyn, but neither wants to be the one who formally starts the challenge.
You'd have thought the plotters would have sorted this out before the synchronised resignations and vote of no confidence, but heigh-ho...
Yes. At least we know how to do regicide properly.
This is the antithesis of the Diadochi. There were a dozen or so brilliant, intelligent, ruthless, bold men (and women) all clamouring for power when Alexander died.
Poor Labour. They all want someone to charge, but nobody wants to lead it.
UK Labour needs their own Kezia Dugdale. Someone so utterly bereft of intellect that they do not understand the sh*tstorm they are walking into.
My preferred option is and always has been EFTA membership on a basis akin to Switzerland with bilateral agreements with the EU. Britain re-joining EFTA would transform the organisation and would provide an alternative model(s) for those wishing to leave the EU whether they choose to work with the EEA (Norway) or not (Switzerland).
I can't support Freedom of Movement for the reasons I mentioned earlier and nor can I support the Single Market. Both represent an erosion of our control and neither operates wholly to our advantage.
That doesn't mean we can't negotiate a mutually advantageous economic relationship with the EU but it does recognise the social, cultural and economic problems of migration. It's all very well having strict rules governing access to benefits but once people are here and sleeping under the North Circular Road, it's too late.
Mr. Rose, Labour simply needs to augment its message distribution mechanisms and enhance internal party morale via a graduated process of reconciliation and mutual acceptance.
As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
While May wouldn't have been my first choice before Brexit, it is completely acceptable to me as well. Boris will have to deal with the poisoned chalice of the Leave bullshit while she could disown it relatively easily.
You've got it in a nutshell there. If Boris were PM every PMQs would start with a question about the extra £350 million a week for the NHS.
Simple solution: Give it to the NHS.
Can't do that while maintaining EU subsidies and spending programmes in the UK. It was bullshit then and bullshit now. If they had stuck with £100m extra for the NHS it may have been deliverable. £350m per week is not.
Yep. £100 million a week is very much doable. £5.2 billion a year. Still leaves £3.3 billion a year for other stuff even whilst maintaining all the EU grants etc.
I'm going, no staying, going, well maybe, perhaps, staying, going, I will challenge you for leader, no no no, oh Hi Jez, I'm just nipping to Costa, usual Soya milk latte?
When the Shadow Cabinet organized their mass resignation, did they not plan between them for at least a stalking horse? Or have people got cold feet?
They have the courage of a hyena and the brains of a chicken.And they are part of Labour's problem. Immigration?: they are for it.
Working class?: never been there - with a few exceptions. Rich ? Yes: see Benn and white van woman.And Umana. And lots more. At least Corbyn has balls. Labour MPs are lemmings.All jump over the same cliff together..
The best thing for them is to leave and see if people will vote for them...
Don't take this as support for Corbyn.. But the Labour Party is about 50 years out of date: hence the crisis.
Let's just say there is another "think again" referendum in true EU style..... Let's just say that after the votes are counted Remain then win 52 to 48.
What then?
Is that result then binding and can never be overturned or will we then have leavers calling foul and we go for the best of three?
Another referendum is easy to arrange but any reversing of the original outcome is going to spell an absolute shitstorm for someone.
Mr. Rose, one acknowledges receipt of your feedback and will appropriately register it in the positive file pertaining to external communication relationships.
As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
While May wouldn't have been my first choice before Brexit, it is completely acceptable to me as well. Boris will have to deal with the poisoned chalice of the Leave bullshit while she could disown it relatively easily.
We should negotiate for EEA+ migration changes so that the EU backs EEA as their position. If we try to start with EEA as our position we will be negotiated down from there. Then we can fall back to EEA if necessary.
We can try but we'll never get it without giving up a big prize like the single market for services (including the financial passport).
Mr. Max, I find the idea that the UK will have to accept a non-specific agreement laughable. We are much too big a market to be forced to accept a EEA settlement. Even Switzerland hasn't done that.
Yes there will be negotiations and I don't for one one moment think that we could get everything we would like but, unless our negotiating team are completely useless (always a possibility- see Cameron's effort) we should get a good deal. However, we have to be prepared to walk away - resort to WTO rules and that is it.
P.S. Forget the single market in services. It doesn't exist now because the French and Germans don't want it. It will not happen in the future.
Mr. Rose, one acknowledges receipt of your feedback and will appropriately register it in the positive file pertaining to external communication relationships.
To answer @MaxPB's question, EEA as is would suit me because this is where we are starting from.
I would vaguely wonder why we had swapped an inside negotiating position for a peripheral or nonexistent negotiating position but that was then and I'm not so worried about the ECJ opining on kettle specifications. And of course they still will so opine (and we of course all know that of the "70%" of our laws, "made in the EU", around 65% are just such specifications, but I digress).
How that is sold to the country? Free movement an' all? With care and honesty for a start. For a start.
As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
While May wouldn't have been my first choice before Brexit, it is completely acceptable to me as well. Boris will have to deal with the poisoned chalice of the Leave bullshit while she could disown it relatively easily.
We should negotiate for EEA+ migration changes so that the EU backs EEA as their position. If we try to start with EEA as our position we will be negotiated down from there. Then we can fall back to EEA if necessary.
We can try but we'll never get it without giving up a big prize like the single market for services (including the financial passport).
Mr. Max, I find the idea that the UK will have to accept a non-specific agreement laughable. We are much too big a market to be forced to accept a EEA settlement. Even Switzerland hasn't done that.
Yes there will be negotiations and I don't for one one moment think that we could get everything we would like but, unless our negotiating team are completely useless (always a possibility- see Cameron's effort) we should get a good deal. However, we have to be prepared to walk away - resort to WTO rules and that is it.
P.S. Forget the single market in services. It doesn't exist now because the French and Germans don't want it. It will not happen in the future.
Hurst, I'll put it to you, restricting free movement is treating the symptoms of mass migration. We need to treat he causes, until we have an education system that puts out school leavers and graduates who are suitable for the workplace and a benefits system which incentiveses work and doesn't make it pay for immigrants to come here and claim housing benefits, working tax credits for low paid jobs, child tax credits ans child benefits for two or three children etc...
Can anyone tell me why Nicky Morgan is even being mentioned in the context of the Tory leadership? Surely even she knows she isn't up to it - or is she hoping that by standing she might just cling onto her cabinet job? In either case I think she'll be disappointed.
If they tried to overrule democracy by asking again until they got the right answer, democracy would have broken down in this country. It is one of the few situations I would consider rioting legitimate.
Can anyone tell me why Nicky Morgan is even being mentioned in the context of the Tory leadership? Surely even she knows she isn't up to it - or is she hoping that by standing she might just cling onto her cabinet job? In either case I think she'll be disappointed.
To answer @MaxPB's question, EEA as is would suit me because this is where we are starting from.
I would vaguely wonder why we had swapped an inside negotiating position for a peripheral or nonexistent negotiating position but that was then and I'm not so worried about the ECJ opining on kettle specifications. And of course they still will so opine (and we of course all know that of the "70%" of our laws, "made in the EU", around 65% are just such specifications, but I digress).
How that is sold to the country? Free movement an' all? With care and honesty for a start. For a start.
I can't quite believe that any British government would sign up to something that would give Farage the freedom to campaign on exactly the same platform and even increase his support, in return for an arrangement that many people would say is arguably worse for us.
My interpretation is that both Angela Eagle and Tom Watson want to enter the contest against Corbyn, but neither wants to be the one who formally starts the challenge.
You'd have thought the plotters would have sorted this out before the synchronised resignations and vote of no confidence, but heigh-ho...
That would have required thinking and planning, something that seems to be in rather short supply in what was the shadow cabinet.
Can anyone tell me why Nicky Morgan is even being mentioned in the context of the Tory leadership? Surely even she knows she isn't up to it - or is she hoping that by standing she might just cling onto her cabinet job? In either case I think she'll be disappointed.
To answer @MaxPB's question, EEA as is would suit me because this is where we are starting from.
I would vaguely wonder why we had swapped an inside negotiating position for a peripheral or nonexistent negotiating position but that was then and I'm not so worried about the ECJ opining on kettle specifications. And of course they still will so opine (and we of course all know that of the "70%" of our laws, "made in the EU", around 65% are just such specifications, but I digress).
How that is sold to the country? Free movement an' all? With care and honesty for a start. For a start.
I can't quite believe that any British government would sign up to something that would give Farage the freedom to campaign on exactly the same platform and even increase his support, in return for something that many people would say is arguably worse for us.
Let him bang on about it and let the government reform the benefits system so that work pays but we don't pay people who have jobs any benefits and tax credits, those are the biggest pull factor.
A few weeks ago, I promised everyone in my non PB life that after June 24th, I would cut down on my interest in politics and focus on other things for a few months.
That's working out brilliantly so far.
In contrast Mrs JackW has allowed me greater access to the site as she reflected that she hadn't see me laugh so much in weeks subsequent to the events of Friday morning.
Well if the government backs EEA membership you might get a good opportunity to do so.
That is my presumption. I'm expecting a "Great Betrayal " narrative before the next election for UKIP. That would offer far vakue on the lay then. A snap General Election will mess me up think.
The problem is that the Blue Kippers care about getting sovereignty back and won't feel betrayed. The Red Kippers care about immigration and will feel betrayed. Its the worst possible world for Labour.
We have to accept this is a major fucking EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
If that is the case, then why Leave ?
We have listed the advantages of leaving so many times before that I am not going to bother repeating them for you yet again.
One was no free movement of people.
Not for Richard. He is one of the Enlightened Ones that will happily accept the betrayal of the desires of the majority of the Leave voters (foreigners out) because he sees a more elegant solution in some supposed EEA arrangement.
Although why being vetoed by Norway is a superior state of affairs to being vetoed by France, or outvoted by France and Poland, is anyone's guess.
Because we cannot be outvoted by anyone if we are in EFTA. There is no QMV and all votes have to be unanimous.
Baring betrayal by the politicians we are now on our way out of the EU. This means that the decision on where to proceed must be made on behalf of all the electorate, not just the 23% who have said they would not want the EFTA route.
My understanding, and it has lapsed of late, is that EU laws must be accepted or rejected by the EEA before being written into the EEA agreement (or not).
What happens if Norway and the UK differ on one particular EU law or another being written into the EEA agreement?
If anyone does not accept it then it is vetoed.
Norway has recently done this with proposals to include oil and gas regulation in the EEA Agreement.
Bundestag seems to be going ballistic about the trade deal between Canada and the EU.
Junker has told German Parliament it has nothing to do with them and is an EU matter so butt out. Germans not taking well to being slapped down and heavily criticising Junker
I think it has been the general consensus on here up until now that a Con PM could in practice call a snap GE as Labour could hardly duck the opportunity of a return to power - so Lab MPs would allow the PM to get round the Fixed Term Parliament Act.
However, with Lab in all this turmoil, surely Lab "backbench" MPs (ie the vast majority of Lab MPs) would say "No, you can't call a GE right now, until we've sorted ourselves out". They wouldn't have to specify how long that would be but the effect would be to prevent the snap GE.
Going down the other route of actually repealing the FTPA is a non-starter as it couldn't be done rapidly due to the Lords.
Watching Watson's words about not standing for Leader and whether he challenged Corbyn to resign, two things jumped out at me.
1 - He talked about McDonnell quite a bit. '[McDonnell and Corbyn] are a team' [McDonnell] speaks for Jeremy'. Part of me wondered if that was clever politics, trying to suggest to the Corbynites that changing to McDonnell as leader would not be a big difference and so acceptable to them, and so hopefully convince them to get Corbyn to stand down.
2 - He said the felt one of the prerequisites of being deputy is never wanting to be Leader. Huh? The whole point would be if the Leader is gone, or has to go, you can step up.
As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
While May wouldn't have been my first choice before Brexit, it is completely acceptable to me as well. Boris will have to deal with the poisoned chalice of the Leave bullshit while she could disown it relatively easily.
Indeed. That's way it has to be May. For the good of the country.
As a patriot and a proud British citizen I am extremely dismayed by the way our country has descended into complete farce. I would take May + EEA + FOM now. Corbyn, Boris and their fellow narcissists should form their own party. Those of us who care about the health of our country should form another.
? The country voted Leave. Not Remain. Live with it.
We did vote Leave - there are many options within that label.
As this forum clearly shows. The idea that a vote for Leave is a vote for a Red BNP prospectus of zero immigration, unlimited welfare payments and an ultra rich NHS staffed by Harley Street doctors and supermodel nurses is palpable nonsense.
As unlikely as it seems to go from 8 MPs to Downing Street this past year has seen a lot of unlikely events happen. What are the odds that the following could happen:
Corbyn (or a Corbynite like McDonnell) wins re-election Mandatory reselection is pushed on the Labour Party as the Corbynites revenge on this failed coup. Seeing the writing on the wall, and because of the failure of the SDP over a hundred Labour MPs defect to the Lib Dems, making them the second largest party and Farron is now Leader of the Opposition. The Tories fail to agree and implement a Brexit in time for the next election. Leader of the Opposition Farron leads a centrist Remain quasi-referendum campaign in the subsequent election. Leave votes split between EEA-backing Tories and End Free Movement-backing UKIP. Rump Labour fading away to obscurity. Lib Dems largest party at the election, Farron new Prime Minister.
Comments
We seem to have a panoply of positions on the Leave side that range from no negotiated single market access and no FoM all the way through to EUlite. So whilst 17 million were marking a cross against a single word I very much doubt any of them had a coherent view on what it really meant (by coherent I mean shared). So now we have posturing UKIP (with Farage doing his best to smooth our negotiation path) and a cowed Tory party that in parts seems to wish this whole thing would go away. Very much like the England football team - no post qualification plan, no clear strategy. No wonder the "soft" leavers (of which I'm sure there are a good many) are worried and a little remorseful. To me it seems like a god-awful cocktail of incompetence and hubris. (quote from a previous post of mine)
I made a mistake some while ago on betfair. Somehow I finished up backing Matthew Pennycook in a couple of quid at some rubbishy old price.
Seize the day Mr Pennycook!
Poor Labour. They all want someone to charge, but nobody wants to lead it.
'Hmmm. Wheels coming off the Remainiac Stirring Wagon.
Nippy Nicky given the brush off by Spain.'
She got her photo with Schultz.
A phone call to Spain would have saved her the journey,instead the taxpayer picks up the bill for her grandstanding.
You'd have thought the plotters would have sorted this out before the synchronised resignations and vote of no confidence, but heigh-ho...
but really shes in a corner of her own painting.
EU rules cant be bent so a deal is an outside hope whether in or out of the UK. Likewise Ive yet to hear an argument why an organisation in crisis would want Scotland at this time.
Youre not the prize you think you are.
My preferred option is and always has been EFTA membership on a basis akin to Switzerland with bilateral agreements with the EU. Britain re-joining EFTA would transform the organisation and would provide an alternative model(s) for those wishing to leave the EU whether they choose to work with the EEA (Norway) or not (Switzerland).
I can't support Freedom of Movement for the reasons I mentioned earlier and nor can I support the Single Market. Both represent an erosion of our control and neither operates wholly to our advantage.
That doesn't mean we can't negotiate a mutually advantageous economic relationship with the EU but it does recognise the social, cultural and economic problems of migration. It's all very well having strict rules governing access to benefits but once people are here and sleeping under the North Circular Road, it's too late.
Doing so makes her rich and famous - it may also just about make her Leader of the Labour party.
Anyone have her phone number?
'Spain and France's statements today (from their doomed and soon to be replaced leaders) only hasten the time scale on a second referendum.'
Go for it ,why the wait ?
Quite. The current batch of Labour MPs would embarrass a blancmange with their gelatinous wobbling.
What a time to be alive.
Immigration?: they are for it.
Working class?: never been there - with a few exceptions.
Rich ? Yes: see Benn and white van woman.And Umana. And lots more.
At least Corbyn has balls. Labour MPs are lemmings.All jump over the same cliff together..
The best thing for them is to leave and see if people will vote for them...
Don't take this as support for Corbyn.. But the Labour Party is about 50 years out of date: hence the crisis.
Was his conspicuous display of loyalty an example of getting behind the man the more effectively to stab him in the back?
What then?
Is that result then binding and can never be overturned or will we then have leavers calling foul and we go for the best of three?
Another referendum is easy to arrange but any reversing of the original outcome is going to spell an absolute shitstorm for someone.
Genuine question
Yes there will be negotiations and I don't for one one moment think that we could get everything we would like but, unless our negotiating team are completely useless (always a possibility- see Cameron's effort) we should get a good deal. However, we have to be prepared to walk away - resort to WTO rules and that is it.
P.S. Forget the single market in services. It doesn't exist now because the French and Germans don't want it. It will not happen in the future.
It will take Jeremy some time to realise he's been stabbed.
I would vaguely wonder why we had swapped an inside negotiating position for a peripheral or nonexistent negotiating position but that was then and I'm not so worried about the ECJ opining on kettle specifications. And of course they still will so opine (and we of course all know that of the "70%" of our laws, "made in the EU", around 65% are just such specifications, but I digress).
How that is sold to the country? Free movement an' all? With care and honesty for a start. For a start.
You are on a National channel.
Get a fecking tie, a shave and tidy yourself up you a scruffy little git
you might as well have mad nad on the ballot...
Rest the ARSE and the TOTY for the TOTY4EU*
*Troll of the year for Euro Ungulates
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/jeremy-corbyn-no-vision-post-brexit-uk-yvette-cooper?CMP=share_btn_tw
However, with Lab in all this turmoil, surely Lab "backbench" MPs (ie the vast majority of Lab MPs) would say "No, you can't call a GE right now, until we've sorted ourselves out". They wouldn't have to specify how long that would be but the effect would be to prevent the snap GE.
Going down the other route of actually repealing the FTPA is a non-starter as it couldn't be done rapidly due to the Lords.
1 - He talked about McDonnell quite a bit. '[McDonnell and Corbyn] are a team' [McDonnell] speaks for Jeremy'. Part of me wondered if that was clever politics, trying to suggest to the Corbynites that changing to McDonnell as leader would not be a big difference and so acceptable to them, and so hopefully convince them to get Corbyn to stand down.
2 - He said the felt one of the prerequisites of being deputy is never wanting to be Leader. Huh? The whole point would be if the Leader is gone, or has to go, you can step up.
OLD THREAD RESURRECTED