That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
Is it not from Mrs G to a flunky who is attending the meeting ?
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
I am sure that SeanT can see the potential in that outline. Brilliant!
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
On that subject, the comments from Juncker about this are interesting, saying that if you're in you can try to change the terms, but if you're out you're out.
We are out (or will be). Why would we want to change the terms of EU membership when we are not a member?
If the new government decides that the British interest is best served by trying to negotiate to stay in, they still have that option. Until we're out, we're in.
Another one trying to reverse a democratic decision?
Oh and of course you are wrong. Until we are out we are indeed in. Completely. Which means that with exception to actual discussions on Brexit we are fully involved in all decision making as much (or as little) as we were before the vote.
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
The Murdoch owned Times sacked Boris for making up a quote.
Rupert never forgets.
Amusingly, just like Dave, it was Piers Gaveston that got Boris in trouble
Anyone got any ideas for a thriller? I pay folding money
I've always been fascinated by the possibility of storing the human mind electronically and issues of identity (the sort of 'if you could transplant a brain it would actually be a body transplant not a brain transplant'). They're starting to be able to record some aspects of brain function and memory. Maybe record dreams and replay them inside someone else's brain. Maybe transplant an identity as a form of control or false flag operation. I'm sure there's a thriller where the protagonist thinks he's someone else, maybe finds he is someone else. Obviously there's a bad guy controlling. Something horribly serious at stake. I'd go lite on the gorilla sex and Swedish boilings though.
I like the Peter Watts' articles about all the wierd and wonderful things our minds can get up to, like Cotard's delusion (patient 'knows' they are dead), blindsight, agnosias of various flavours (hemispherical blindness is wierd). The article about the man with 2% of normal brain tissue who appeared to be fully functional stays with me to this day.
There has to be a novel somewhere in there .
I sometimes wonder if the DNA that sets up the brain in an embryo takes its structure from the parents - which leaves open the possibility of inherited memory from a parent. The synapses when configured start with some previously known structure.
Now, if the structure is daddy's - and say daddy is a serial killer...
Anyone got any ideas for a thriller? I pay folding money
I've always been fascinated by the possibility of storing the human mind electronically and issues of identity (the sort of 'if you could transplant a brain it would actually be a body transplant not a brain transplant'). They're starting to be able to record some aspects of brain function and memory. Maybe record dreams and replay them inside someone else's brain. Maybe transplant an identity as a form of control or false flag operation. I'm sure there's a thriller where the protagonist thinks he's someone else, maybe finds he is someone else. Obviously there's a bad guy controlling. Something horribly serious at stake. I'd go lite on the gorilla sex and Swedish boilings though.
Read a sci-fi story with that sort of theme as a youngster. Man in a woman's body.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
It's a very weird email. No wife emails her husband like that. Surely.
Something iffy about it
Yes, but the "your ability" that Murdoch/Dacre trust must surely be that of Michael Gove himself. No one else would fit that bill.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
it's just Twitter, but a mood is developing, and it ain't necessarily good for prominent LEAVE campaigners. To put it mildly.
Oh no, not Twitter!!!
Twitter (and facebook) only exist for the liberals to get hard talking to each other. It has no real benefit to anyone other than the BBC whatsoever. The net effect of Twitter (and Facebook) is that there is tremendous reinforcement of preconceived prejudices - resulting in an inability to change outlook and severe distrust/ hatred of those who do.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
Not so. In fact there are already special arrangements for specific EEA states - Protocol 47 doesn't apply to Liechtenstein, Protocol 15 has special arrangements for Liechtenstein, Protocol 8 has special provisions for Liechtenstein and Iceland, etc etc etc
What you don't seem to understand is the Contracting Parties can agree whatever they like. It will need the consent of all signatories, of course. But I've made that point many times anyway - to use the EEA route requires the consent of the UK plus the rEU 27 plus the EEA 3 (plus Switzerland for the EFTA bit). In negotiating that consent, anything can be added or subtracted, in legal terms.
And Richard N. is wrong yet again.
The EEA route does not require the agreement of the rest of the EU.
It does require us to join EFTA which of course requires their agreement. But if we move from the EU to EFTA we are not in breach of the terms of the treaty and as such we remain members of the EEA.
I know this really annoys you but it is a fact. No signatory can be removed from a treaty without being in breach of the terms. If they are forced out the whole treaty ceases to exist.
Anyone got any ideas for a thriller? I pay folding money
I've always been fascinated by the possibility of storing the human mind electronically and issues of identity (the sort of 'if you could transplant a brain it would actually be a body transplant not a brain transplant'). They're starting to be able to record some aspects of brain function and memory. Maybe record dreams and replay them inside someone else's brain. Maybe transplant an identity as a form of control or false flag operation. I'm sure there's a thriller where the protagonist thinks he's someone else, maybe finds he is someone else. Obviously there's a bad guy controlling. Something horribly serious at stake. I'd go lite on the gorilla sex and Swedish boilings though.
To be fair I don't think Boris comes out of the email all that badly... I mean essentially it just confirms what we know - That the Tories aren't fond of him (and something new is that Dacre and Murdoch are't keen, which I didn't know)
Mr and Mrs Gove come across as very insincere and self-serving though.
Gove's wife's private e mail leaked to press showing that Gove may not back Boris unless he receives assurances. Sensational story from Sky
Gove has a wife?
Sam Cam's friend.
Who has used the famous Italian Job line about only supposed to be blowing the doors off to her husband about our current predicament. Which about sums it up, really.
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
It's a very weird email. No wife emails her husband like that. Surely.
Something iffy about it
Yes, but the "your ability" that Murdoch/Dacre trust must surely be that of Michael Gove himself. No one else would fit that bill.
No it can't be Gove because in the same sentence she refers to a Johnson/Gove ticket so she must be addressing the email to someone else. Is there a press spokesman or power broker who could fit the bill?
Anyone got any ideas for a thriller? I pay folding money
I've always been fascinated by the possibility of storing the human mind electronically and issues of identity (the sort of 'if you could transplant a brain it would actually be a body transplant not a brain transplant'). They're starting to be able to record some aspects of brain function and memory. Maybe record dreams and replay them inside someone else's brain. Maybe transplant an identity as a form of control or false flag operation. I'm sure there's a thriller where the protagonist thinks he's someone else, maybe finds he is someone else. Obviously there's a bad guy controlling. Something horribly serious at stake. I'd go lite on the gorilla sex and Swedish boilings though.
He [Rajoy] was echoed by Mr Hollande, the French President, who insisted the EU will make no advance deal with Scotland. He said: "The negotiations will be conducted with the United Kingdom, not with a part of the United Kingdom.”
Of course. Scotland is seen as a region, just like the Basque region.
Gove's wife's private e mail leaked to press showing that Gove may not back Boris unless he receives assurances. Sensational story from Sky
Gove has a wife?
Sam Cam's friend.
Who has used the famous Italian Job line about only supposed to be blowing the doors off to her husband about our current predicament. Which about sums it up, really.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
If that is the case, then why Leave ?
We have listed the advantages of leaving so many times before that I am not going to bother repeating them for you yet again.
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
It's a very weird email. No wife emails her husband like that. Surely.
Something iffy about it
Yes, but the "your ability" that Murdoch/Dacre trust must surely be that of Michael Gove himself. No one else would fit that bill.
No it can't be Gove because in the same sentence she refers to a Johnson/Gove ticket so she must be addressing the email to someone else. Is there a press spokesman or power broker who could fit the bill?
Murdoch/Dacre are not going to be trusting flunkies. I don't read the reference to a Johnson/Gove ticket in the same way as you; "Johnson/you" would look odd.
Anyone got any ideas for a thriller? I pay folding money
I've always been fascinated by the possibility of storing the human mind electronically and issues of identity (the sort of 'if you could transplant a brain it would actually be a body transplant not a brain transplant'). They're starting to be able to record some aspects of brain function and memory. Maybe record dreams and replay them inside someone else's brain. Maybe transplant an identity as a form of control or false flag operation. I'm sure there's a thriller where the protagonist thinks he's someone else, maybe finds he is someone else. Obviously there's a bad guy controlling. Something horribly serious at stake. I'd go lite on the gorilla sex and Swedish boilings though.
Read a sci-fi story with that sort of theme as a youngster. Man in a woman's body.
(Good afternoon, everyone)
Sadly, its been done many times before. Glasshouse by Charlie Stross, any of Richard Morgan's Kovacs novels, even Heinlein had a go.
< I know this really annoys you but it is a fact. No signatory can be removed from a treaty without being in breach of the terms. If they are forced out the whole treaty ceases to exist.
Why should it annoy me? I agree. We'll still be signatories, of course. We'll still be a Contracting Party. So what? That won't make us an EFTA state for the purposes of this agreement.
I''ve no idea why you can't understand the fact the we are signatories IN OUR CAPACITY AS AN EU MEMBER STATE, and the three EFTA states named in the treaty are on the other side of the agreement. Of course, the agreement will now have to be changed whatever happens.
The far left does not do deals. It is totally uncompromising. It has the members onside and so has total power.
And Nick Palmer voted for him. And still supports him. Incroyable
Nick was a communist, wasn't he? Comfortably off, totally unaffected by anything that the Tories might do, this is all just a wonderful game to him. The workers, the workers will rise, and punks and rastas and skins and people of every colour and creed will flock to follow the glorious leader and the bosses will be put in chains and we'll all own the means of production and isn't it all just so terribly exciting.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
Is this the 4pm Sean T and the more lubricated 9pm will be more relaxed?
Credit Swiss have not been doing well lately, so please buck up SeanT, I'm tired of your whining. To think that i was offered a job in their Paris office in 1955.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
It's great that, as the country reels from its mightiest political crisis since the war, Labour, Her Majesty's Opposition, have decided this is the EXACT moment to have a monumental psychosis
Her Majesty's LOYAL Opposition is nothing of the kind. This self indulgent nonsense is borderline treachery.
I think that is the way Nick sees it too - check out Eagle's support for Corbyn "running round like a 25 year old" during the campaign and now the way she's turned on him, and now crying. It's shameful and the PLP needs to learn some loyalty.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
If that is the case, then why Leave ?
Because a) we can reject EU directive 152w2/KE/74(i)2 (kettles) if we (oh and of course the other EEA members) want; and b) we will be free to formulate our own kettle specifications, so that although kettle manufacturers, if they want to export to the EU, will have two sets of regulatory requirements to satisfy, one of those will have been written by a bloke wearing Union Jack underpants.
Mr. T, another treasure-idea could be when Hastein (I think) raided the Mediterranean in the 9th century. Got lots of treasure but lost 2/3 of his ships [obviously, unlike the other idea, that would likely now be on the seabed].
Attila was buried in an unknown location, I think with much treasure, likewise Genghis Khan.
A different idea would be having Edward II survive in secret (something many historians now think happened) and fathered a child, whose descendent could have legitimate claim to be King/Queen of England.
Really, Mr. Dancer, I am surprised at you. The stories about Edward II surviving and living as a hermit/monk in Italy have been around for decades if not centuries without a shred of evidence to back them up. The idea that many historians support such stories may be correct but only for a given value of historian.
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
It's a very weird email. No wife emails her husband like that. Surely.
Something iffy about it
Yes, but the "your ability" that Murdoch/Dacre trust must surely be that of Michael Gove himself. No one else would fit that bill.
No it can't be Gove because in the same sentence she refers to a Johnson/Gove ticket so she must be addressing the email to someone else. Is there a press spokesman or power broker who could fit the bill?
It's addressed to an advisor/associate of Gove's I think. It talks about him in the 3rd person until the words "One simple message:" when it switches to the 2nd person because it's summarising the advice the addressee should relay to Gove.
That misdirected email throws up a lot of interesting questions. Why do Murdoch/Dacre instinctively dislike Boris? What are the specific assurances being sought? Why does the email wander between discussing Michael Gove in the third person and then by the end apparently refer to him in the second person?
It's a very weird email. No wife emails her husband like that. Surely.
Something iffy about it
Yes, but the "your ability" that Murdoch/Dacre trust must surely be that of Michael Gove himself. No one else would fit that bill.
No it can't be Gove because in the same sentence she refers to a Johnson/Gove ticket so she must be addressing the email to someone else. Is there a press spokesman or power broker who could fit the bill?
Murdoch/Dacre are not going to be trusting flunkies. I don't read the reference to a Johnson/Gove ticket in the same way as you; "Johnson/you" would look odd.
Yes on re-reading it you're right, and Sky do confirm that it was sent to Gove as well.
It's very odd to refer to your partner in the third person in a mail addressed to them, but it seems it was a group email so maybe not so strange.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
If that is the case, then why Leave ?
We have listed the advantages of leaving so many times before that I am not going to bother repeating them for you yet again.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
Is this the 4pm Sean T and the more lubricated 9pm will be more relaxed?
Credit Swiss have not been doing well lately, so please buck up SeanT, I'm tired of your whining. To think that i was offered a job in their Paris office in 1955.
Someone please get SeanT to see his G.P, pretty sure he has bipolar.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
Why would a party win the next election by promising not to invoke Article 50 when we've just voted to Brexit?
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
Why would a party win the next election by promising not to invoke Article 50 when we've just voted to Brexit?
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
If that is the case, then why Leave ?
We have listed the advantages of leaving so many times before that I am not going to bother repeating them for you yet again.
One was no free movement of people.
Not for Richard. He is one of the Enlightened Ones that will happily accept the betrayal of the desires of the majority of the Leave voters (foreigners out) because he sees a more elegant solution in some supposed EEA arrangement.
Although why being vetoed by Norway is a superior state of affairs to being vetoed by France, or outvoted by France and Poland, is anyone's guess.
Starting from here, which is where I wouldn't start from, it's a simple choice. Either we accept the full-on economic hit of not being in the Single Market, which I think will be quite nasty, in return for not having freedom of movement, or we accept the lesser economic hit (arising from the uncertainty pending agreement) of something like the EEA (assuming it's on offer, of course). This is all entirely a political negotiation, Richard T's obsession with the minutiae of the legalities is completely irrelevant.
I haven't changed my view on the economic risks, so on balance I think the EEA route and shafting Leavers who thought they were voting for an end fo free movement of people is probably the less unpalatable of two extremely unpalatable options, and the government might get away with it given the chaos in Labour and the rather quick buyer's remorse that we are seeing. The politicians will have to find some face-saving way of pretending that both sides have won something from the negotiations.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
vs. UKIP's "leave means leave"
On the electoral map, huge swathes of England and Wales would turn from red to purple.
It's great that, as the country reels from its mightiest political crisis since the war, Labour, Her Majesty's Opposition, have decided this is the EXACT moment to have a monumental psychosis
Her Majesty's LOYAL Opposition is nothing of the kind. This self indulgent nonsense is borderline treachery.
I think that is the way Nick sees it too - check out Eagle's support for Corbyn "running round like a 25 year old" during the campaign and now the way she's turned on him, and now crying. It's shameful and the PLP needs to learn some loyalty.
Loyalty or not, the most damning thing about the PLP is that they were able to go to the trouble of planning and scheduling everyone's resignations hour-by-hour over a two-day period, but never thought it might be a good idea to plan out any sort of policy platform or preferred replacement leader before they pulled (or tried to) the trigger on their current one. And these are the supposed to be the alternative bunch on offer to run the country as and when we get fed up with the numpties already in charge?
The far left does not do deals. It is totally uncompromising. It has the members onside and so has total power.
And Nick Palmer voted for him. And still supports him. Incroyable
Nick was a communist, wasn't he? Comfortably off, totally unaffected by anything that the Tories might do, this is all just a wonderful game to him. The workers, the workers will rise, and punks and rastas and skins and people of every colour and creed will flock to follow the glorious leader and the bosses will be put in chains and we'll all own the means of production and isn't it all just so terribly exciting.
Meanwhile in the real world ...
Oh, FFS. You're so obsessed with me that you're dragging in my opinions of 45 years ago? Why don't you simply argue your case without worrying about what some ex-MP thinks?
The FTSE 100 has now recovered all of its post-Referendum fall, the 250 has recovered a good proportion and, whilst still well down, the £/$ has been on the rise since yesterday.
Since very little of the uncertainty has been resolved my instinct is that these recoveries may be temporary, but the strength of the stock market recovery in particular is both surprising and encouraging.
Ian, the recoveries are being driven by the fact that little of the fundamentals have changed. The UK will still be in the single market and the only losers from Brexit will be Labour as they struggle to fend off UKIP once people realise leaving isn't going to change free movement.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
vs. UKIP's "leave means leave"
On the electoral map, huge swathes of England and Wales would turn from red to purple.
Perhaps so, but we may also see swathes of the Tories' richest constituencies turning from blue to red - eg Labour might lose Barnsley but gain Kensington.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
vs. UKIP's "leave means leave"
On the electoral map, huge swathes of England and Wales would turn from red to purple.
Really ? Even some Tories might vote PD, at least, for this time.
The FTSE 100 has now recovered all of its post-Referendum fall, the 250 has recovered a good proportion and, whilst still well down, the £/$ has been on the rise since yesterday.
Since very little of the uncertainty has been resolved my instinct is that these recoveries may be temporary, but the strength of the stock market recovery in particular is both surprising and encouraging.
Ian, the recoveries are being driven by the fact that little of the fundamentals have changed. The UK will still be in the single market and the only losers from Brexit will be Labour as they struggle to fend off UKIP once people realise leaving isn't going to change free movement.
Still, individual component shares are in different positions - the banks and airlines well down, still, whereas pharma and resources fully recovered, or better.
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450. They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50". Ironically save the City of London.
vs. UKIP's "leave means leave" On the electoral map, huge swathes of England and Wales would turn from red to purple.
Cripes,Mr Pong. I mean....
Do you really think that everybody who voted for Leave is going to vote for UKIP?
Perhaps the solution to Labour's problem is to follow what 1970s pop groups do when they split up, where they all claim the name but stick the lead singer's name in front of their own version of it.
Les McKeown's Bay City Rollers
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party...with Dozy Beaky Mick and Titch
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
I see the FTSE is back to where it was pre-referendum results. And that had a Remain win priced in.
FTSE All Share 23rd June: 3481 Today: 3413
Now 3,441
Re: FTSE All Share 3441 vs 3481 of 23 June. This is a terrible End of Days, anyone seen the plague of locusts? This is a really low budget movie with naff special effects.
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
If that is the case, then why Leave ?
Because we wouldn't be in the political union or subject to ECJ jurisdiction.
The FTSE 100 has now recovered all of its post-Referendum fall, the 250 has recovered a good proportion and, whilst still well down, the £/$ has been on the rise since yesterday.
I'm sure they'll find something bleak to put on the News.
The far left does not do deals. It is totally uncompromising. It has the members onside and so has total power.
And Nick Palmer voted for him. And still supports him. Incroyable
Nick was a communist, wasn't he? Comfortably off, totally unaffected by anything that the Tories might do, this is all just a wonderful game to him. The workers, the workers will rise, and punks and rastas and skins and people of every colour and creed will flock to follow the glorious leader and the bosses will be put in chains and we'll all own the means of production and isn't it all just so terribly exciting.
Meanwhile in the real world ...
Oh, FFS. You're so obsessed with me that you're dragging in my opinions of 45 years ago? Why don't you simply argue your case without worrying about what some ex-MP thinks?
Mr. Llama, whilst modern history isn't my thing, Ian Mortimer's case in his biography of Edward III (The Perfect King) does seem at least plausible.
Contemplating re-reading that, actually. Not long since I last gave it a look, but since then I've read biographies of Alfred, William Marshal, Edward I and Roger Mortimer, which may help provide some perspective.
Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak 51 secs51 seconds ago
Supportive message coming from the unions, and letter from 240 Labour councillors BACKING Corbyn
I have already suggested a new name for the nascent Party. Progressive Democrats incorporating the Lib Dems. Old LD gets 200 nominations, exLab gets 450.
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
Why would a party win the next election by promising not to invoke Article 50 when we've just voted to Brexit?
Because the Referendum was on the EU as it now is, or as it might become, or as Mr Cameron so brilliantly renegotiated it.
And some of those who voted for Leave were voting against one of those three, whereas leaving the EU does not necessarily mean breaking away from Europe completely.
The whole referendum was a total farce. Thank you, Mr Cameron.
Isn´t it lucky we have a competent Conservative Government?
We have to accept this is a major fucking mistake. A Tory must man up and say Nah, we're not doing it, and take the electoral hit. Or offer a revote, where voters can choose the three options, FULL LEAVE, EEA, STAY
The house is catching on fire and we're squabbling in the kitchen about whose turn it is to put out the bins
It may well be simple. May and Johnson will say EEA. The new Labour leader, if there is one, might be Stay. There may be an election, but, either way, most of the access to the single market will be retained.
But we can't even accept EEA on the terms threatened by France - loss of passporting.
There is no question of accepting EEA membership on any particular terms.
If we take the EEA route it will be on the current terms including freedom of movement, passporting etc. Those terms are defined by treaty and cannot be changed for any member without being changed for all.
What makes all this particularly painful is that, if we are going for something like the EEA route, most of the economic damage could have been avoided altogether by the Leave side making that clear in advance.
Comments
Oh and of course you are wrong. Until we are out we are indeed in. Completely. Which means that with exception to actual discussions on Brexit we are fully involved in all decision making as much (or as little) as we were before the vote.
Rupert never forgets.
Amusingly, just like Dave, it was Piers Gaveston that got Boris in trouble
Now, if the structure is daddy's - and say daddy is a serial killer...
(Good afternoon, everyone)
The EEA route does not require the agreement of the rest of the EU.
It does require us to join EFTA which of course requires their agreement. But if we move from the EU to EFTA we are not in breach of the terms of the treaty and as such we remain members of the EEA.
I know this really annoys you but it is a fact. No signatory can be removed from a treaty without being in breach of the terms. If they are forced out the whole treaty ceases to exist.
Mr and Mrs Gove come across as very insincere and self-serving though.
I''ve no idea why you can't understand the fact the we are signatories IN OUR CAPACITY AS AN EU MEMBER STATE, and the three EFTA states named in the treaty are on the other side of the agreement. Of course, the agreement will now have to be changed whatever happens.
Meanwhile in the real world ...
They automatically become HM Opposition. Win the next election on a manifesto commitment that "we will not invoke Article 50".
Ironically save the City of London.
To me, at least, it reads quite naturally.
It's very odd to refer to your partner in the third person in a mail addressed to them, but it seems it was a group email so maybe not so strange.
Although why being vetoed by Norway is a superior state of affairs to being vetoed by France, or outvoted by France and Poland, is anyone's guess.
I haven't changed my view on the economic risks, so on balance I think the EEA route and shafting Leavers who thought they were voting for an end fo free movement of people is probably the less unpalatable of two extremely unpalatable options, and the government might get away with it given the chaos in Labour and the rather quick buyer's remorse that we are seeing. The politicians will have to find some face-saving way of pretending that both sides have won something from the negotiations.
On the electoral map, huge swathes of England and Wales would turn from red to purple.
https://twitter.com/SocialistVoice/status/748166869799034881
Lay imo.
https://twitter.com/ReutersBiz/status/748180045563301888
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133
Do you really think that everybody who voted for Leave is going to vote for UKIP?
Les McKeown's Bay City Rollers
Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party...with Dozy Beaky Mick and Titch
The French president and Spanish prime minister have both said they are opposed to the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980
Another one of my nuggets:
We're not going to invoke Article 50 - ever
(you heard it here first)
Contemplating re-reading that, actually. Not long since I last gave it a look, but since then I've read biographies of Alfred, William Marshal, Edward I and Roger Mortimer, which may help provide some perspective.
Oh and would anybody like to buy a bomb shelter? One previous owner, nearly new.
And some of those who voted for Leave were voting against one of those three, whereas leaving the EU does not necessarily mean breaking away from Europe completely.
The whole referendum was a total farce. Thank you, Mr Cameron.
Isn´t it lucky we have a competent Conservative Government?
Might not have won the referendum, though.