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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Team Corbyn shouldn’t assume that he’ll get “three quidder

SystemSystem Posts: 11,693
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Team Corbyn shouldn’t assume that he’ll get “three quidders” vote like last time

I’m hearing that plans are afoot by those who want Corbyn out to replicate his very successful campaign a year ago to win the “three quid” vote. These were those who were able to take part in the leadership election by registering as party supporters by paying £3.

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    edited June 2016
    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Corbyn will walk it. Labour members are prepared to kill the Labour party to keep him in place.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Corbyn will walk it. Labour members are prepared to kill the Labour party to keep him in place.

    Considering every Labour government has left the economy worse than it found it, we thank them for their service. Maybe like a phoenix a less dogmatic left wing party will arise from the Ashes.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    I'm trying to bet on who'll go first Cam or Corbyn, but I've got no idea how long labour leadership contests take. Does anyone know how long the 3 shortest contests historically were?
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

    Yes. Though it's not actually true of Obi-Wan is it? He's a fat load of use once he's dead.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Conor Pope
    The Chakrabarti Inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party will be published tomorrow.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited June 2016
    The obvious strategy this time is to get Remainian nationalists like me to sign up for £3 to vote against Corbyn. I will do so if the candidate is right.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pauly said:

    I'm trying to bet on who'll go first Cam or Corbyn, but I've got no idea how long labour leadership contests take. Does anyone know how long the 3 shortest contests historically were?

    The Labour contest ends at Labour Conference.
    The Tory contest is to end before Tory Conference.
    Labour Conference happens before Tory Conference.

    So it theoretically could be possible that both contests end at the same time.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496

    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

    Hahaha - brilliant comparison. Do a photo manipulation and get it tweeted! *Paging Sunil!*
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    When will the Con MPs have their first round of voting on the new Con leader?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    Wanderer said:

    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

    Yes. Though it's not actually true of Obi-Wan is it? He's a fat load of use once he's dead.
    He told Luke he must go to the Dagobah system and learn from Yoda.

    Pretty pivotal moment.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496

    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

    Hahaha - brilliant comparison. Do a photo manipulation and get it tweeted! *Paging Sunil!*
    No Diane in Princess Leia's Jabba slave outfit though please.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    edited June 2016
    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    PlatoSaid said:

    Conor Pope
    The Chakrabarti Inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party will be published tomorrow.

    I believe they'll conclude they're in favour of it.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    PlatoSaid said:

    Conor Pope
    The Chakrabarti Inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party will be published tomorrow.

    Was wondering why they had sold out of whitewash at B&Q...
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Oh, there'll be no shortage of trade deals.
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    faddyfaddy Posts: 1
    The £3 was to become a "registered supporter". Don't think that came with an expiry date.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Corbyn will walk it. Labour members are prepared to kill the Labour party to keep him in place.

    Not totally sure. There will be a recruitment drive for anti-Corbynites - I've already been asked - and the tone of the campaign will be very different from last year. Corbyn won't be new and refreshing and his opponent will position themselves more sensibly.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    faddy said:

    The £3 was to become a "registered supporter". Don't think that came with an expiry date.

    So there until death? That was £3 well spent by this who did...
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited June 2016

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the four freedoms are the EU's 2nd amendment issue. I struggle to see how they could be persuaded to relinquish or amend the unqualified freedom of movement.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Wanderer said:

    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

    Yes. Though it's not actually true of Obi-Wan is it? He's a fat load of use once he's dead.
    He told Luke he must go to the Dagobah system and learn from Yoda.

    Pretty pivotal moment.
    That's just a voice in his head. I get that all the time, don't you?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    I expected nothing less. To give us that would be to end the EU. Anyone who thinks we can gain single market status without accepting free movement (even with a fig leaf) is kidding themselves.

    I fully expect that in a vote of EEA vs WTO, the EEA side would win by 60/40. Whoever has the balls to call the vote will win a huge mandate to keep us in the single market. The EU will be happy with that and the government won't have to deal with all the screams about "betrayal".
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    James Matthews ‏@jamesmatthewsky 56m56 minutes ago
    Gordon Brown to @SkyNews: "I don't think J Corbyn's going to stay, he's going to go.He knows parliamentary party have no faith in him."
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052
    They need a convincing alternative candidate though. They need ideas. About the economy, the EU, the disconnect between Hampstead and Humberside. Not easy.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    Wanderer said:

    If Corbyn does survive, he's going to be like Obi Wan Kenobi.

    "If You strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

    Yes. Though it's not actually true of Obi-Wan is it? He's a fat load of use once he's dead.
    Watch the scene again. Obi Wans ' Suicide by Cop ' was the psychological shock Luke needed to pull Excalibur from the Stone. If Corbyn handles this killing correctly ( which he isn't ) he could evoke a similar outcome from his chosen successor.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conor Pope
    The Chakrabarti Inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party will be published tomorrow.

    Was wondering why they had sold out of whitewash at B&Q...
    They could only get what Chillcot left on the shelves.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Corbyn will walk it. Labour members are prepared to kill the Labour party to keep him in place.

    As others have said there might be a Chilcot impact also, the Stop The War mob will love him if he calls for the arrest of Tony Blair from the dispatch box.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Pauly said:

    I'm trying to bet on who'll go first Cam or Corbyn, but I've got no idea how long labour leadership contests take. Does anyone know how long the 3 shortest contests historically were?

    The Labour contest ends at Labour Conference.
    The Tory contest is to end before Tory Conference.
    Labour Conference happens before Tory Conference.

    So it theoretically could be possible that both contests end at the same time.
    September the 9th seems the latest possible date for a con PM I think - when is Labour's conference this year? If you assume the leadership contest will end then, betting against odds on Corbyn could be value.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Conor Pope
    The Chakrabarti Inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party will be published tomorrow.

    I believe they'll conclude they're in favour of it.
    Chortle ..
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    faddy said:

    The £3 was to become a "registered supporter". Don't think that came with an expiry date.

    When Jezza expires ?
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    John_M said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the four freedoms are the EU's 2nd amendment issue. I struggle to see how they could be persuaded to relinquish or amend the unqualified freedom of movement.
    They're negotiating a no-free-movement deal with the swiss _now_. The reporting was that it was being held up until after our referendum vote.

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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    John_M said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the four freedoms are the EU's 2nd amendment issue. I struggle to see how they could be persuaded to relinquish or amend the unqualified freedom of movement.
    Nope - they are firm of principle, stubborn, inflexible, intransigent with the utmost faith that what they are doing is correct and unable to see the other person's point of view. Sort of like 'the liberal elite' everywhere.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    looks like Corbyn is planning the destruction of the labour party
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    ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 165
    If the £3 quidders can still vote (and it was definitely sold as becoming a Registered supporter for a year) than I will directly help determine who is the Prime Minister and the Leader of The Opposition in the next couple of months. Not a bad return on a £28 investment.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    MaxPB said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    I expected nothing less. To give us that would be to end the EU. Anyone who thinks we can gain single market status without accepting free movement (even with a fig leaf) is kidding themselves.

    I fully expect that in a vote of EEA vs WTO, the EEA side would win by 60/40. Whoever has the balls to call the vote will win a huge mandate to keep us in the single market. The EU will be happy with that and the government won't have to deal with all the screams about "betrayal".
    Quite, single market warts and all. Junker et al are looking for a fight, a show of strength, to discourage anyone else from getting ideas, hopefully the heads of government are much more sensible...
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016
    MaxPB said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    I expected nothing less. To give us that would be to end the EU. Anyone who thinks we can gain single market status without accepting free movement (even with a fig leaf) is kidding themselves.

    I fully expect that in a vote of EEA vs WTO, the EEA side would win by 60/40. Whoever has the balls to call the vote will win a huge mandate to keep us in the single market. The EU will be happy with that and the government won't have to deal with all the screams about "betrayal".
    The unknown is the other deals that will be available.

    If EU(WTO) comes with free trade with US, Canada, Australia etc on the side versus Full EU but no free trade with the anglosphere - who wins?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Is the solution to Corbyn’s predicament more EU integration? – Discuss :lol:
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Juncker: Will listen to Sturgeon but "We don't have intention to interfere in a British process. It's not our duty and not our job." #Brexit
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    FPT:

    I've paddled about on the EU's trade website ( http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_118238.pdf).

    Interesting tidbit (which illustrates how ponderous trade talks can be). The draft FTA with Singapore was completed in October 2014. It was submitted to the ECJ in July 2015. It's not yet been ratified.

    For the partisan crowd, it's genuinely not a dig at the EU. It should serve as a cautionary warning to all of us that trade agreements aren't necessarily swiftly hammered out over a pint on the back of a fag packet.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052
    notme said:

    Corbyn will walk it. Labour members are prepared to kill the Labour party to keep him in place.

    As others have said there might be a Chilcot impact also, the Stop The War mob will love him if he calls for the arrest of Tony Blair from the dispatch box.
    Would the Prime minister agree with me that an immediate arrest warrant be put out for the former Prime minister Anthony Blair thought to be currently holed up in a mansion in Kazakhstan.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    We need to find a way to get Australia into the acronym.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    PlatoSaid said:

    Conor Pope
    The Chakrabarti Inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party will be published tomorrow.

    Nothing like pouring fuel on the fire! :D
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Pauly said:

    Pauly said:

    I'm trying to bet on who'll go first Cam or Corbyn, but I've got no idea how long labour leadership contests take. Does anyone know how long the 3 shortest contests historically were?

    The Labour contest ends at Labour Conference.
    The Tory contest is to end before Tory Conference.
    Labour Conference happens before Tory Conference.

    So it theoretically could be possible that both contests end at the same time.
    September the 9th seems the latest possible date for a con PM I think - when is Labour's conference this year? If you assume the leadership contest will end then, betting against odds on Corbyn could be value.

    Corbyn will be the red hot favourite.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    John_M said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the four freedoms are the EU's 2nd amendment issue. I struggle to see how they could be persuaded to relinquish or amend the unqualified freedom of movement.
    They're negotiating a no-free-movement deal with the swiss _now_. The reporting was that it was being held up until after our referendum vote.

    Switzerland doesn't have financial passporting, mind. It's why all the Swiss banks have much bigger London operations than Zurich ones.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Oh, there'll be no shortage of trade deals.
    Mega excited about our future, once the EU deal is sorted out, we can be the débutante at the ball.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
    Tusk's statements are consistent with the EU's previous voiced position that you can't take what you want and leave what you don't. It does not however rule out taking half of what we want. as long as we take half of what we don't.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    http://support.labour.org.uk/# They aren't taking new £3 supporters at the moment.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    We need to find a way to get Australia into the acronym.
    AUSCANZUK. It still scans. I always knew that military experience would come in handy.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    faddy said:

    The £3 was to become a "registered supporter". Don't think that came with an expiry date.

    So there until death? That was £3 well spent by this who did...
    So, why be a member ?
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    I like the sound of that.

    Similarly wealthy nations, single language, a heavily shared history.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
    But that's exactly what we've just done. We've resigned but are now trying to negotiate the exit package having already quit.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the four freedoms are the EU's 2nd amendment issue. I struggle to see how they could be persuaded to relinquish or amend the unqualified freedom of movement.
    They're negotiating a no-free-movement deal with the swiss _now_. The reporting was that it was being held up until after our referendum vote.

    Switzerland doesn't have financial passporting, mind. It's why all the Swiss banks have much bigger London operations than Zurich ones.
    I know that the FTT idea is hanging on by a thread (I think only 10 members are still advocating it) but I wonder if Brexit will now reinvigorate enthusiasm on the continent?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
    Tusk's statements are consistent with the EU's previous voiced position that you can't take what you want and leave what you don't. It does not however rule out taking half of what we want. as long as we take half of what we don't.
    It also doesn't rule out the EU agreeing a special agreement in the same way we've had special agreements via opt outs in the past. That they've not agreed to it today does not mean there's no chance of them agreeing to it in the future.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    Any party going in with full single market and FoM will win now.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,758
    FPT

    FF43 said:

    Anorak said:



    How about taking the view that the 48% who voted remain, plus a rather large chunk of Leavers (the Richard Tyndall and Smithson Jr types) are perfectly happy with free movement.

    It's a straightforward case that this is more than half the vote and thus perfectly democratic to retain it. Leave Frothers will froth, natch, but there is literally no realistic, negotiated outcome that wouldn't result in that anyway.

    It is obvious to me that over half the population would go for the EEA option, given full membership has been removed. Two issues: (1) It's up to the rEU to offer it to us and indications are that they probably won't, at least in its current form. (2) EEA is unlikely to work for Britain anyway. It's a balanced option designed to give nobody what they want.
    Needless to say I disagree with both of those claims about EEA membership.

    Just addressing the first it ignores the fact that we are an independent signatory to the EEA Agreement and that we have already had countries moving in the opposite direction from EFTA to the EU without having to rewrite the treaty. It needed a simple amendment under the Vienna Convention.

    Given that it would give the EU basically everything they want including free movement of people I think you are overestimating the opposition anyway.
    I know, we have been over this ground several times. Very briefly, it is very unlikely in practice that the UK would reenter/transfer to the EEA as an EFTA member without an explicit offer to do so by the EU negotiating team. As predicted by Open Europe's war gaming earlier this year, France but also Germany and Ireland would aim to peel off financial services from the single market deal with the UK. This is already starting to play out. As such, it isn't the EEA any more.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    notme said:

    Corbyn will walk it. Labour members are prepared to kill the Labour party to keep him in place.

    As others have said there might be a Chilcot impact also, the Stop The War mob will love him if he calls for the arrest of Tony Blair from the dispatch box.
    Alex Salmond alluded to finding Blair "new accommodation" during PMQs today. It's going to be fun to watch next week!
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
    But that's exactly what we've just done. We've resigned but are now trying to negotiate the exit package having already quit.
    No it's not, we've announced we're going to resign and are now trying to negotiate a package that suits both our interests.

    If we'd announced that the UK would have zero tariffs or restrictions on EU exports to the UK even if we don't reach an agreement then that would be equivalent to what the EU have said. We have what the EU wants, the EU has what we want, neither are prepared to give the milk away for free currently so negotiations will happen. The final deal will not be either parties starting deal.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Watson - "Look Jeremy we need an anthem to cheer the troops"
    Corbyn - "Fraternal thanks Tom .. any ideas?"
    Watson - "Something modern, rousing, familiar and with a sense of Labour Party history"
    Corbyn - "We agree on something !!"
    Watson - "Great .. How about 'Things Can Only Get Better' ...."
    Corbyn - " *~>"<(^:>}"*
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    ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 165
    ANZUKA sounds good and is resonate of the ANZAC's.
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    ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 165
    ANZUKCA sorry
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    The negotiation period is 2 years.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the four freedoms are the EU's 2nd amendment issue. I struggle to see how they could be persuaded to relinquish or amend the unqualified freedom of movement.
    They're negotiating a no-free-movement deal with the swiss _now_. The reporting was that it was being held up until after our referendum vote.

    Switzerland doesn't have financial passporting, mind. It's why all the Swiss banks have much bigger London operations than Zurich ones.
    Didn't the London based hedge funds decamp to Switzerland after an EU anti-hedge fund directive?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited June 2016
    I'd like to thank Corbyn for vindicating me - and giving PB a rare QTWTAIY headline :)

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/09/08/should-labour-move-swiftly-to-depose-corbyn/

    Edit: mind you, it would probably have got equally messy back then
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969
    FF43 said:

    FPT

    FF43 said:

    Anorak said:



    How about taking the view that the 48% who voted remain, plus a rather large chunk of Leavers (the Richard Tyndall and Smithson Jr types) are perfectly happy with free movement.

    It's a straightforward case that this is more than half the vote and thus perfectly democratic to retain it. Leave Frothers will froth, natch, but there is literally no realistic, negotiated outcome that wouldn't result in that anyway.

    It is obvious to me that over half the population would go for the EEA option, given full membership has been removed. Two issues: (1) It's up to the rEU to offer it to us and indications are that they probably won't, at least in its current form. (2) EEA is unlikely to work for Britain anyway. It's a balanced option designed to give nobody what they want.
    Needless to say I disagree with both of those claims about EEA membership.

    Just addressing the first it ignores the fact that we are an independent signatory to the EEA Agreement and that we have already had countries moving in the opposite direction from EFTA to the EU without having to rewrite the treaty. It needed a simple amendment under the Vienna Convention.

    Given that it would give the EU basically everything they want including free movement of people I think you are overestimating the opposition anyway.
    I know, we have been over this ground several times. Very briefly, it is very unlikely in practice that the UK would reenter/transfer to the EEA as an EFTA member without an explicit offer to do so by the EU negotiating team. As predicted by Open Europe's war gaming earlier this year, France but also Germany and Ireland would aim to peel off financial services from the single market deal with the UK. This is already starting to play out. As such, it isn't the EEA any more.
    Legally they would find that very difficult and would be faced with a position whereby the whole EEA deal could collapse. I know they might try but they really are not in a a strong position as far as the treaty itself is concerned to do so.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    surbiton said:

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    Any party going in with full single market and FoM will win now.
    Yes, I think that position would get 60% support inna referendum. Now we're out of the EU I personally have no interest in taking us out of the single market.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    I like the sound of that.

    Similarly wealthy nations, single language, a heavily shared history.
    The US would never permit Canada to join such a union. Canada is nominally free, just as we were nominally allowed to leave the EU at any time. We of course by enormous fluke/divine intervention are on course to do the latter. It will be a cold day in hell before the US allows Canada to do the former.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Mr. Faddy, welcome to pb.com.

    On the Conservative leadership: today is the only day for nominations, right?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Mr. Faddy, welcome to pb.com.

    On the Conservative leadership: today is the only day for nominations, right?

    Open today, close tomorrow.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    I'm sure the voters of Sunderland will be ecstatic at our new Anglosphere Union.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited June 2016
    Looks like the coup has failed.
    Corbyn going nowhere, Eagle would be deselected by her own constituency if she stood, and be demolished by Corbyn in a ballot anyhow - "the lesser of two Eagles", as the Corbynites briefed this morning...
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    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    edited June 2016
    John_M said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    We need to find a way to get Australia into the acronym.
    AUSCANZUK. It still scans. I always knew that military experience would come in handy.
    They are countries spread around the world, linked only by oceans. I think I have it.

    Oceania.

    The UK can be an air hub. An Airstrip One if you will.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,027
    FF43 said:

    FPT

    FF43 said:

    Anorak said:



    How about taking the view that the 48% who voted remain, plus a rather large chunk of Leavers (the Richard Tyndall and Smithson Jr types) are perfectly happy with free movement.

    It's a straightforward case that this is more than half the vote and thus perfectly democratic to retain it. Leave Frothers will froth, natch, but there is literally no realistic, negotiated outcome that wouldn't result in that anyway.

    It is obvious to me that over half the population would go for the EEA option, given full membership has been removed. Two issues: (1) It's up to the rEU to offer it to us and indications are that they probably won't, at least in its current form. (2) EEA is unlikely to work for Britain anyway. It's a balanced option designed to give nobody what they want.
    Needless to say I disagree with both of those claims about EEA membership.

    Just addressing the first it ignores the fact that we are an independent signatory to the EEA Agreement and that we have already had countries moving in the opposite direction from EFTA to the EU without having to rewrite the treaty. It needed a simple amendment under the Vienna Convention.

    Given that it would give the EU basically everything they want including free movement of people I think you are overestimating the opposition anyway.
    I know, we have been over this ground several times. Very briefly, it is very unlikely in practice that the UK would reenter/transfer to the EEA as an EFTA member without an explicit offer to do so by the EU negotiating team. As predicted by Open Europe's war gaming earlier this year, France but also Germany and Ireland would aim to peel off financial services from the single market deal with the UK. This is already starting to play out. As such, it isn't the EEA any more.
    Worth a read. Looks like some of the City’s activities will quite soon be elsewhere. The question is not whether, but how much.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Legally they would find that very difficult and would be faced with a position whereby the whole EEA deal could collapse. I know they might try but they really are not in a a strong position as far as the treaty itself is concerned to do so.

    Why? The treaty would need rewriting anyway whatever happens. The politicians will decide this and then the bureaucrats and lawyers will draw up the legal stuff.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Mr. Faddy, welcome to pb.com.

    On the Conservative leadership: today is the only day for nominations, right?

    Open today, close tomorrow.
    Didn't they say midday tomorrow?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    chestnut said:

    MaxPB said:

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    I expected nothing less. To give us that would be to end the EU. Anyone who thinks we can gain single market status without accepting free movement (even with a fig leaf) is kidding themselves.

    I fully expect that in a vote of EEA vs WTO, the EEA side would win by 60/40. Whoever has the balls to call the vote will win a huge mandate to keep us in the single market. The EU will be happy with that and the government won't have to deal with all the screams about "betrayal".
    The unknown is the other deals that will be available.

    If EU(WTO) comes with free trade with US, Canada, Australia etc on the side versus Full EU but no free trade with the anglosphere - who wins?
    That's all pie in the sky and wouldn't be completed in two years and it would be available to us even if we stayed in the EEA. I don't see why we couldn't have both? As I've said time and again, mass immigration is caused by a poorly designed benefits system and an education system that isn't fit for purpose. I think we'd be better off fixing those than cutting off a legitimate source of workers before our own school leavers and unemployed have the skills to be productive and the incentive to work.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    So, here's what will happen. We will be offered an EEA-style deal that allows us a level of control over migration and full access tot he Single Market, with one exception - passporting for the City will be excluded. What a great deal - only the bakers will be hurt!!

    Is there a Tory PM who would sign up to that?

    The Leavers have so miscalculated the strength of the UK's hand it is unbelievable.

    Good luck Boris :-D
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
    Tusk's statements are consistent with the EU's previous voiced position that you can't take what you want and leave what you don't. It does not however rule out taking half of what we want. as long as we take half of what we don't.
    It also doesn't rule out the EU agreeing a special agreement in the same way we've had special agreements via opt outs in the past. That they've not agreed to it today does not mean there's no chance of them agreeing to it in the future.
    And there is absolutely no reason this should not be a multi-step negotiation. We Brits tend to like to do a deal, come to an agreement and stick to it.

    In the Middle East, any deal agreed is simply the starting point of the next negotiation. We should learn from the Israelis and the Arabs. Get what we can from Europe now and renegotiate later. Or, leave completely now without a deal, and wait until they are ready to do the best mutual deal, rather than requiring an element of punishing us.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Legally they would find that very difficult and would be faced with a position whereby the whole EEA deal could collapse. I know they might try but they really are not in a a strong position as far as the treaty itself is concerned to do so.

    Why? The treaty would need rewriting anyway whatever happens. The politicians will decide this and then the bureaucrats and lawyers will draw up the legal stuff.
    Why will it? It wasn't changed when Sweden and other nations switched from the EFTA leg to the EU leg of the EEA.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    I like the sound of that.

    Similarly wealthy nations, single language, a heavily shared history.
    I :love: that too. It's more more *us*
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    So, here's what will happen. We will be offered an EEA-style deal that allows us a level of control over migration and full access tot he Single Market, with one exception - passporting for the City will be excluded. What a great deal - only the ba[n]kers will be hurt!!

    Is there a Tory PM who would sign up to that?

    The Leavers have so miscalculated the strength of the UK's hand it is unbelievable.

    Good luck Boris :-D

    Yes, I fear you are right.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    We shouldn't consider the EU as a monolith (I'm sure most people don't already). The countries with the most skin in the game are the usual suspects:

    Germany, Netherlands, France, Belgium, Eire, Italy and Spain.

    They are (the order varies, except Germany is usually #1) all top ten exporters to the UK. We are mutually important to each other.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    MTimT said:

    Looks like we're either going to be fully in or out of the Single Market

    AFP: EU 27 agree 'no single market a la carte' for UK: Tusk

    To be fair even if the EU is prepared to agree to an a la carte access they'd start negotiations by saying they're not. You don't start negotiations by giving away everything for free and then start making demands.
    Tusk's statements are consistent with the EU's previous voiced position that you can't take what you want and leave what you don't. It does not however rule out taking half of what we want. as long as we take half of what we don't.
    It also doesn't rule out the EU agreeing a special agreement in the same way we've had special agreements via opt outs in the past. That they've not agreed to it today does not mean there's no chance of them agreeing to it in the future.
    And there is absolutely no reason this should not be a multi-step negotiation. We Brits tend to like to do a deal, come to an agreement and stick to it.

    In the Middle East, any deal agreed is simply the starting point of the next negotiation. We should learn from the Israelis and the Arabs. Get what we can from Europe now and renegotiate later. Or, leave completely now without a deal, and wait until they are ready to do the best mutual deal, rather than requiring an element of punishing us.
    Ha, so true about the Middle East. We will have a deal, insh'allah. ;)
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Legally they would find that very difficult and would be faced with a position whereby the whole EEA deal could collapse. I know they might try but they really are not in a a strong position as far as the treaty itself is concerned to do so.

    Why? The treaty would need rewriting anyway whatever happens. The politicians will decide this and then the bureaucrats and lawyers will draw up the legal stuff.
    Why will it? It wasn't changed when Sweden and other nations switched from the EFTA leg to the EU leg of the EEA.
    Yes it was.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Legally they would find that very difficult and would be faced with a position whereby the whole EEA deal could collapse. I know they might try but they really are not in a a strong position as far as the treaty itself is concerned to do so.

    Why? The treaty would need rewriting anyway whatever happens. The politicians will decide this and then the bureaucrats and lawyers will draw up the legal stuff.
    Why will it? It wasn't changed when Sweden and other nations switched from the EFTA leg to the EU leg of the EEA.
    Yes it was.
    Can you show a link to how it was changed then please?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,526
    I get the feeling Ron Jeremy would do a better job as Labour Leader than Jeremy Corbyn
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The Leavers have so miscalculated the strength of the UK's hand it is unbelievable.

    Good luck Boris :-D

    That's not exactly true. They misrepresented the strength of the UK hand.

    I think Boris knows exactly how weak it is. That's why he wanted to lose. His poker face was on display on Friday. Ashen.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    So, here's what will happen. We will be offered an EEA-style deal that allows us a level of control over migration and full access tot he Single Market, with one exception - passporting for the City will be excluded. What a great deal - only the bakers will be hurt!!

    Is there a Tory PM who would sign up to that?

    The Leavers have so miscalculated the strength of the UK's hand it is unbelievable.

    Good luck Boris :-D

    We are being right royally screwed. Someone should tell the Queen that there are more than 3 reasons to stay in the EU.

    However, there is a big BUT. We have not left the EU. Article 50 has not been invoked yet.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    RodCrosby said:

    Looks like the coup has failed.
    Corbyn going nowhere, Eagle would be deselected by her own constituency if she stood, and be demolished by Corbyn in a ballot anyhow - "the lesser of two Eagles", as the Corbynites briefed this morning...

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha Hah
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited June 2016

    So, here's what will happen. We will be offered an EEA-style deal that allows us a level of control over migration and full access tot he Single Market, with one exception - passporting for the City will be excluded. What a great deal - only the ba[n]kers will be hurt!!

    Is there a Tory PM who would sign up to that?

    The Leavers have so miscalculated the strength of the UK's hand it is unbelievable.

    Good luck Boris :-D

    Yes, I fear you are right.
    This is exactly what Macron said would be the deal the day before the Referendum in a desperate attempt to get the penny to drop. But it didn't.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    So, here's what will happen. We will be offered an EEA-style deal that allows us a level of control over migration and full access tot he Single Market, with one exception - passporting for the City will be excluded. What a great deal - only the bakers will be hurt!!

    Is there a Tory PM who would sign up to that?

    The Leavers have so miscalculated the strength of the UK's hand it is unbelievable.

    Good luck Boris :-D

    I don't think any Tory PM would sign up to that, the donors wouldn't be happy.

    We will accept free movement and keep our current single market status or we will fully leave and put up full immigration restrictions on EU migrants. Those are the two available options, anything else would be sub-optimal in one way or another.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Legally they would find that very difficult and would be faced with a position whereby the whole EEA deal could collapse. I know they might try but they really are not in a a strong position as far as the treaty itself is concerned to do so.

    Why? The treaty would need rewriting anyway whatever happens. The politicians will decide this and then the bureaucrats and lawyers will draw up the legal stuff.
    Why will it? It wasn't changed when Sweden and other nations switched from the EFTA leg to the EU leg of the EEA.
    Yes it was.
    Can you show a link to how it was changed then please?
    Just look at the text
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @euanmccolm: make no mistake, alex salmond came within a few hundred thousand votes of being boris in 2014.

    :)
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,496
    PlatoSaid said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re India-EU, the Indian government used to have a very detailed set of pages on EU negotiations, but I can't seem to find it. (They had one on EFTA negotiations too.)

    I don't know if they're removed it, or (more likely) if my Google Fu skills are just lacking today.

    The Deputy Finance Minister was telling the FT that he felt it would be much easier to deal with us as a single country just a few days ago.

    The South Koreans, New Zealanders and Australians have all been talking about bi-lateral deals also.
    Mr Lilico was suggesting we look to political union/grouping with Canada, NZ, and Australia.

    "A CANZUK union would be a very significant geopolitical player, with a combined GDP of about three quarters of that of China, the fourth largest economic area in the world. It would have the largest land area of any union. It would have the third largest defence expenditure. It would be a very significant geopolitical player. "

    http://reaction.life/so-what-next/
    I like the sound of that.

    Similarly wealthy nations, single language, a heavily shared history.
    I :love: that too. It's more more *us*
    I don't know why we're so keen to leap into another union. We can't even defend our own back yard at the moment. 'World influence' comes from prosperity; prosperity does not come from world influence.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RodCrosby said:

    Corbyn going nowhere

    How perceptive of you Rod to conceive the title of the next Labour Party general election manifesto.

  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited June 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Looks like the coup has failed.
    Corbyn going nowhere, Eagle would be deselected by her own constituency if she stood, and be demolished by Corbyn in a ballot anyhow - "the lesser of two Eagles", as the Corbynites briefed this morning...

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha Hah
    John McDonnell's Scouse humour poking through there, I guess...
This discussion has been closed.