Im wondering if all this will do real and lasting damage to facebook in the UK
I don't know about that but Miss Plato pointed us to a jolly good article the other day the essence of which was Facebook and Twitter are enabling their users to live in silo's or echo chambers in which they never get to hear a contrary opinion and this is ruining political discourse.
Unfortunately I did not make a note of its address, but Miss P might have it. Well worth a read.
He made the clearly factually correct statement that the UK would find it harder to protect Gibraltar's interests (NOT their territorial integrity) outside of the EU. Ridiculous to suggest it's scaremongering.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
But they're not in the govt. This is a dogs breakfast.
Pleased that my London prediction worked out fairly well despite Hounslow and Newham not behaving as expected. It forecast that London would vote 65.7% Remain if England was 50/50 and the result was London 59.9% and England 46.6%.
As I'm sure many people have told you, congratulations on your spreadsheet: one of the few good things to come out of this sorry affair. Are you doing a similar one for POTUS2016?
(Incidentally do you have a link for your spreadsheet? I've lost mine)
Thanks. It wasn't right everywhere, particularly places like Slough, Barking, Leicester, B'ham, etc. Working-class EM voters were more in favour of Brexit than I thought they would be.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
The EU is not going to give us access to the market without free movement of labour, and paying a shed load for the privilege.
Why? Because we need the single market, and they know it. Our foreign investors, and the importance of London.
Brexit is increasingly looking like the prefect definition of a pyrrhic victory. Still, the political cost it seems will be felt by the Labour Party.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future.
It's interesting how little opprobrium there is for Dan Hannan, who having campaigned for the result, disowned the campaign as soon as it was over, has now "left Twitter for a month"
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement isnt the problem, its instant benefits when you arrive. You just dont get that in other European social security systems. That means it much easier to get going in the UK than elsewhere as a lot of the risk is taken out of it.
You are making the same mistake as the PM, and deciding that the only reason people are concerned about immigration is because of our benefit system. Not a single person I spoke to during the referendum mentioned benefits once in the context of immigration, they were concerned about ongoing pressure on public services, or the fact that we cannot have controls to determine the qualifications of those moving here. Oh, and most of them didn't mention immigration as their number one concern!
It's also worth remembering that the proposed benefit curbs would have done nothing, our minimum wage is the pull factor, not our benefit system.
The commonest complaint has been about taking jobs and for a lower wage.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Even if he's up to his eyeballs in his day job - it's PR 101 to at least make a reassuring statement and say when you'll be back with updates.
Both Dave and George aren't even bothering with the basics anymore in terms of the public.
Hammond was disgraceful earlier - still trying to scare Gib residents.
Why would Hammond want to scare Gib residents? where is the political mileage in so doing?
Remainers have that. The Remain camp appears to have lost it's marbles a long time ago, that's why a Leaver as PM is the only sensible and proper choice.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Very difficult to predict where the London property market might go.
I expect an initial hit - 10%?
But that only winds back the gains of the last year.
After that there will be conflicting trends, a cheaper pound makes property more attractive to foreigners. But if the City collapses there will be rats gnawing lepers on Lombard Street.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
There is a deal to be done. If you can solve to keep FoM in such a way that it allows BoJo to credibly claim that he has restricted it then it works.
Two other titbits from today's conflab:
1. The French has officially communicated "we will do nothing to harm our allies". That means they will do everything right up to the line. An offer to Scotland will be made - Italy and Spain have already been bought off
2. Heartened to learn that one of the men I most respect in France is pro Brexit. (Unbelievably bright, ineffably patient, utterly inscrutable.) This is because he believes it will clearly communicate to the French elites that things need to change. He sent a word text to my contact on the morning of the count : Bravo.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement is fine. The problem is Free Movement of people in the rest of the EU means freedom to find a job. In Britain it means freedom to find a part time job which the Government then tops up to make worthwhile...
We then expected the EU to change their terms to solve our problem for us....
I suspect what a lot of people don't like about Freedom of Movement isn't really freedom of movement at all, its Article 8, and our inability therefrom to throw out phony asylum seekers and criminals of various hues. The incredulous public looking on as the government took years and millions of pounds to get Abu Hamza out the country did incalculable damage to the public opinion of free movement. Unfortunately we need to be out of the EU now to be able to ignore the EHCR.
I agree with you regarding article 8. However mass immigration on the scale and pace that we've seen since 2004 must be a factor. We seem to be so blase about it. We will see another million people here by 2019. Based on the ONS stats, only 58% have jobs on arrival.
That isn't necessarily a problem (with natural growth, we're looking at around 1.5million by 2019). However, it's hard to adapt successfully due to our retarded planning system, our non-contributory welfare system and appalling house-building rates.
Other countries would be able to cope far more successfully than the UK.
Aren't you waiting in excited anticipation for the next racist attack? I thought that was all you were interested in now. How your little heart must race every time you see news come in.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement isnt the problem, its instant benefits when you arrive. You just dont get that in other European social security systems. That means it much easier to get going in the UK than elsewhere as a lot of the risk is taken out of it.
Indeed - not a problem with the EU at all. Who'd have thought?
I see from the previous thread that Michael Howard is being touted by some of the great and good of pbCOM- tongue in cheek. I've been name dropping today, De Piero (sorry for confusing her with an Italian legend Del Piero), but I had the misfortune to be sat next to Michael Howard one time during a Kent social event. Enough said. He was not the most pleasant company.
John O's post earlier....read that. That is where the Tories are at, and they'll go for Boris, warts and all. God help em, but the die is cast.
Tyson is not a fan - yet more reasons why Howard as interim Tory leader or even interim PM might be a good idea....
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement isnt the problem, its instant benefits when you arrive. You just dont get that in other European social security systems. That means it much easier to get going in the UK than elsewhere as a lot of the risk is taken out of it.
Indeed - not a problem with the EU at all. Who'd have thought?
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
More nonsense, just like you saying no Labour people would vote Leave.
The govt were elected to run the country and that's what they must do, Osborne is sulking, his career is over, he's been well and truly exposed but he is the Chancellor of the Exchequer until he resigns or is sacked. Until then he should do the job he's paid to.
Even if he's up to his eyeballs in his day job - it's PR 101 to at least make a reassuring statement
He did that on Friday
She's forgotten the markets close on the w/e. Why don't they ask Gove/Johnson to make some reassuring statements - they must have drafted some ideas somewhere now - or are neither of them smokers?
Balls, please that is absurd. He could not even win his own seat at the last election let alone convince the country. Having campaigned on a platform with Osborne and Cable to keep the UK in the EU he is also totally out of tune with the public mood, not forgetting the fact his wife could only convince 17% of Labour members to back her. I fail to see how he does any better
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future.
It's interesting how little opprobrium there is for Dan Hannan, who having campaigned for the result, disowned the campaign as soon as it was over, has now "left Twitter for a month"
He has "taken back control" right enough...
Scott, if the 'Vote Leave' campaign team were to pass Osborne and Cameron a 'plan' for the first three months of Brexit, would it be right for Osborne and Cameron to follow it?
@Torcuil: Am told Vernon Coaker to go from Shadow Cabinet, and two Eagle sisters.
Blimey, who's left?
I can't imagine Falconer or Bryant will stick around. What about Winterton? And there's still time for Burnham to change his mind a few times again...
Could end up with Jeremy, Diane and Emily Thornberry. Lol.
And McDonnell. It's interesting to speculate whether everyone who hasn't made a public statement (+Burnham) might still be on the table to go.
Have there been many resignations amongst the second tier shadow ministerial teams? And does Corbyn not need to get a move on with his reshuffle - or is he going to conduct all Parliamentary business in person?
Sophie Ridge reckoned the 2nd tier will go tomorrow.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
How can you possibly say they have no reason to be reassuring anyone. Banal.
He made the clearly factually correct statement that the UK would find it harder to protect Gibraltar's interests (NOT their territorial integrity) outside of the EU. Ridiculous to suggest it's scaremongering.
We went 300 years with Gibraltar being safe, 270 of those years without Spain in the EC/EU. Of course there was that time in the last Labour govt when Blair and Hain tried to share sovereignty with Spain.
Some people seem to have been here continously since Thursday. Are you all on red bull?
You've not exactly been a stranger yourself Paul over recent weeks, but I know what you mean. Some of the more regular posters on here are clearly holding down senior positions, no names of course, yet seem able to find the time to post here many times throughout the day and indeed throughout the week, every week.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
Maybe the Queen should just appoint Johnson as PM.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
All voters: 50-50 Current Tory: 50-50 2015 Tory 47-53 (Theresa)
If I was May, Id be absolutely delighted with those figures.
? So we can conclude from this that members are actually 53-47 Boris
That Survation had some Remain Tories switching to the LDs and Labour and it will be Tory members who vote who of course are even more eurosceptic than Tory voters so Boris or Gove will get a clear win
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
But they're not in the govt. This is a dogs breakfast.
Shouldn't stop them being out there explaining what they want to happen next. We have been told repeatedly by Brexiters that you can't believe a word Osborne says so why would they now be wanting him to be out there trying to reassure the markets? As I said, this is Brexit's show now, get on with it.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Very difficult to predict where the London property market might go.
I expect an initial hit - 10%?
But that only winds back the gains of the last year.
After that there will be conflicting trends, a cheaper pound makes property more attractive to foreigners. But if the City collapses there will be rats gnawing lepers on Lombard Street.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
There is a deal to be done. If you can solve to keep FoM in such a way that it allows BoJo to credibly claim that he has restricted it then it works.
Two other titbits from today's conflab:
1. The French has officially communicated "we will do nothing to harm our allies". That means they will do everything right up to the line. An offer to Scotland will be made - Italy and Spain have already been bought off
2. Heartened to learn that one of the men I most respect in France is pro Brexit. (Unbelievably bright, ineffably patient, utterly inscrutable.) This is because he believes it will clearly communicate to the French elites that things need to change. He sent a word text to my contact on the morning of the count : Bravo.
There's a good article in Foreign Affairs arguing that the EU may end up better off post-Brexit, if it can hold together, partly because the UK has hardly been a constructive member, but mostly because it may act as the shock the EU needs to start some serious reforms. The ALDE leader Guy V is already talking along these lines and his comments suggest that somewhere within the EU there is already some sort of a plan.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
The Tories need pensioners and home owners onside if they are going to have a chance of a majority. They will do all they can to keep house prices as high as possible. The best way to do that is to have fewer builds. That's one of the reasons why house builders saw their shares fall by so much in early trading on Friday.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
The majority of boomers are not rich , the London ones may have made plenty on houses etc, nothing similar elsewhere.
This simply isn't true Malc. Boomers are one of the richest demographics in society.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement isnt the problem, its instant benefits when you arrive. You just dont get that in other European social security systems. That means it much easier to get going in the UK than elsewhere as a lot of the risk is taken out of it.
Indeed - not a problem with the EU at all. Who'd have thought?
Balls, please that is absurd. He could not even win his own seat at the last election let alone convince the country. Having campaigned on a platform with Osborne and Cable to keep the UK in the EU he is also totally out of tune with the public mood, not forgetting the fact his wife could only convince 17% of Labour members to back her. I fail to see how he does any better
I know it's absurd, that's why David Herdson should not write articles about Labour and Corbyn, he makes Hilary Benn look like he has his finger on the pulse.
In the last two threads David Herdson has unfortunately and ironically devalued himself.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
How can Nick Palmer sleep easily, knowing that Corbyn is part of the reason we have BREXITED?
Give him a break. No Labour leader would have made any difference whatsoever.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
The EU is not going to give us access to the market without free movement of labour, and paying a shed load for the privilege.
Why? Because we need the single market, and they know it. Our foreign investors, and the importance of London.
Brexit is increasingly looking like the prefect definition of a pyrrhic victory. Still, the political cost it seems will be felt by the Labour Party.
Is anyone suggesting that the EU countries will no longer trade with the UK? I don't think so. Even if we cannot cut a deal and fall back on WTO rules the cost to the UK as a whole will be less than we were paying in subscription fees as a member - the damage will be more apparent to some continental firms than our own (remember tariffs and non-tariff barriers work both ways). Furthermore, if a chunk of the City do go offshore, I think we will stand the loss - they can corrupt and feck up someone else's economy rather than our own.
Sorry, old boy, all that fear mongering didn't work over the last few months. It certainly isn't going to work now.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement is fine. The problem is Free Movement of people in the rest of the EU means freedom to find a job. In Britain it means freedom to find a part time job which the Government then tops up to make worthwhile...
We then expected the EU to change their terms to solve our problem for us....
I suspect what a lot of people don't like about Freedom of Movement isn't really freedom of movement at all, its Article 8, and our inability therefrom to throw out phony asylum seekers and criminals of various hues. The incredulous public looking on as the government took years and millions of pounds to get Abu Hamza out the country did incalculable damage to the public opinion of free movement. Unfortunately we need to be out of the EU now to be able to ignore the EHCR.
I agree with you regarding article 8. However mass immigration on the scale and pace that we've seen since 2004 must be a factor. We seem to be so blase about it. We will see another million people here by 2019. Based on the ONS stats, only 58% have jobs on arrival.
That isn't necessarily a problem (with natural growth, we're looking at around 1.5million by 2019). However, it's hard to adapt successfully due to our retarded planning system, our non-contributory welfare system and appalling house-building rates.
Other countries would be able to cope far more successfully than the UK.
The welfare system isn't the problem - not many people claim much shortly after arriving, so making it contributory wouldn't make much difference - and your first thing is the result of the third. Fix the retarded planning system.
PS 58% already having jobs by the they arrive in a new country sounds unbelievably high.
All voters: 50-50 Current Tory: 50-50 2015 Tory 47-53 (Theresa)
If I was May, Id be absolutely delighted with those figures.
? So we can conclude from this that members are actually 53-47 Boris
That Survation had some Remain Tories switching to the LDs and Labour and it will be Tory members who vote who of course are even more eurosceptic than Tory voters so Boris or Gove will get a clear win
Tory members and Tory voters are not the same thing at all! (rather like Labour)
Balls, please that is absurd. He could not even win his own seat at the last election let alone convince the country. Having campaigned on a platform with Osborne and Cable to keep the UK in the EU he is also totally out of tune with the public mood, not forgetting the fact his wife could only convince 17% of Labour members to back her. I fail to see how he does any better
He's only 51.9% out of tune with the public mood, possibly less than that now.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
But they're not in the govt. This is a dogs breakfast.
Shouldn't stop them being out there explaining what they want to happen next. We have been told repeatedly by Brexiters that you can't believe a word Osborne says so why would they now be wanting him to be out there trying to reassure the markets? As I said, this is Brexit's show now, get on with it.
Are you proposing a coup against the govt?
We have voted to leave the EU, it wasn't a General Election, Cameron is Prime Minister, Osborne is Chancellor. One has stomped off with his football, the other is crying in his bedroom.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
The Tories need pensioners and home owners onside if they are going to have a chance of a majority. They will do all they can to keep house prices as high as possible. The best way to do that is to have fewer builds. That's one of the reasons why house builders saw their shares fall by so much in early trading on Friday.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
The majority of boomers are not rich , the London ones may have made plenty on houses etc, nothing similar elsewhere.
This simply isn't true Malc. Boomers are one of the richest demographics in society.
Perhaps, because we are among the oldest and so have had decades of saving behind us.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
The Tories need pensioners and home owners onside if they are going to have a chance of a majority. They will do all they can to keep house prices as high as possible. The best way to do that is to have fewer builds. That's one of the reasons why house builders saw their shares fall by so much in early trading on Friday.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
Well, yes. But home owners like their homes to be worth a lot and they tend to vote Tory. Boris will need to look after them.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
How can you possibly say they have no reason to be reassuring anyone. Banal.
If you fancy misquoting someone, you might want to try it using a facility that doesn't involve the person's direct quote being nested within yours. They have no BASIS to reassure people because any reassurances would involve a guarantee and timetable of competent Government activity over the next three months. They can't do that because *all together now* they're not IN government.
I'll ask you the same question I asked Scott. If Gove, Boris, Hannan et al were to provide Cameron and Osborne with a 'timetable' of actions for the next three months, would you expect Cameron and Osborne to obey it? Simple yes or no question.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
Of course it's the usual suspects, they have been barking about a coup since last summer.
Their credibility is zero and the only thing they have managed to do so far is make the Trade Unions ask for their expulsion and deselection.
'He wouldn't enjoy the comparison, but Mr Corbyn will soon be in the same position as West Berlin during the Cold War: encircled by enemies, it endured for decades because no one was willing to risk the catastrophic price of all-out war between east and west.
@DPJHodges: People saying "where's Osborne". Could someone please explain where Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are, seeing as this is their baby.
Do these stupid buggers not know how the UK government works? Dumb as a sack of spanners.
I thought this was just a PB thing. If the Remains (of the Remains) commentariat are spouting it too, the cupboard must really be bare.
Of course this is the line spouted by several leave supporters on here because they're comfortable with keeping on fighting the battle they just won. The public will take a different view very quickly if they're not careful. I say that as a Remainer who lost - I accept it - but I'm anxious for the uncertainty to end as soon as possible - in all our interests.
There's a good article in Foreign Affairs arguing that the EU may end up better off post-Brexit, if it can hold together, partly because the UK has hardly been a constructive member, but mostly because it may act as the shock the EU needs to start some serious reforms. The ALDE leader Guy V is already talking along these lines and his comments suggest that somewhere within the EU there is already some sort of a plan.
Everyone wants reform, they always have. This is true of all politicians everywhere. The problem is that for reform to actually happen, people have to agree on what reform they want.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
The Tories need pensioners and home owners onside if they are going to have a chance of a majority. They will do all they can to keep house prices as high as possible. The best way to do that is to have fewer builds. That's one of the reasons why house builders saw their shares fall by so much in early trading on Friday.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
Well, yes. But home owners like their homes to be worth a lot and they tend to vote Tory. Boris will need to look after them.
I used to vote Tory. Selflessness is not a monopoly of the Left. We need more homes. I know we're in agreement, really .
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
How can you possibly say they have no reason to be reassuring anyone. Banal.
If you fancy misquoting someone, you might want to try it using a facility that doesn't involve the person's direct quote being nested within yours. They have no BASIS to reassure people because any reassurances would involve a guarantee and timetable of competent Government activity over the next three months. They can't do that because *all together now* they're not IN government.
I'll ask you the same question I asked Scott. If Gove, Boris, Hannan et al were to provide Cameron and Osborne with a 'timetable' of actions for the next three months, would you expect Cameron and Osborne to obey it? Simple yes or no question.
They could just as well be asking why Farage is not taking action to reassure people.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future.
It's interesting how little opprobrium there is for Dan Hannan, who having campaigned for the result, disowned the campaign as soon as it was over, has now "left Twitter for a month"
He has "taken back control" right enough...
Hannan was always opposed to ending Freedom of Movement, that's the nub of Leave's problems, they all promised different and often contradictory things up to Thursday in order to win now they are going to be fighting like ferrets in a sack for months.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
That we couldn't offer the same protections as before to Gib/how at risk they were from Spain blah blah, then he back tracked a bit and said Oh, but not on defence. He should've been reassuring them/there himself - not sat on a sofa here.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
Of course it's the usual suspects, they have been barking about a coup since last summer.
Their credibility is zero and the only thing they have managed to do so far is make the Trade Unions ask for their expulsion and deselection.
Then why didn't Corbyn have the strength to fire them months ago? You are talking nonsense and you know it.
@DPJHodges: People saying "where's Osborne". Could someone please explain where Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are, seeing as this is their baby.
Do these stupid buggers not know how the UK government works? Dumb as a sack of spanners.
I thought this was just a PB thing. If the Remains (of the Remains) commentariat are spouting it too, the cupboard must really be bare.
Of course this is the line spouted by several leave supporters on here because they're comfortable with keeping on fighting the battle they just won. The public will take a different view very quickly if they're not careful. I say that as a Remainer who lost - I accept it - but I'm anxious for the uncertainty to end as soon as possible - in all our interests.
Your argument is with Cameron and Osborne, they are the ones holding power. Everybody else is shouting from the sidelines.
Some of this is bizarre. For months we were gloatingly told how, upon Brexit, Cameron and Osborne would be immediately strung up, and the triumphant Leavers would seize control, not least because they were the only ones honourable and clever enough to do it. (If Cameron and Osborne were at fault it was for believing that absurd hubris themselves.) I expected something a little more proactive from Leave.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
Boris and Gove own this shitstorm now.
Not whilst Cameron and Osborne are squatting they don't.
'There's a good article in Foreign Affairs arguing that the EU may end up better off post-Brexit, if it can hold together, partly because the UK has hardly been a constructive member, but mostly because it may act as the shock the EU needs to start some serious reforms.'
That's exactly what they said when French & Dutch voters rejected the Lisbon treaty,the serious reform undertaken was to change the name on the document.
Comments
https://t.co/h5UvRSao2r
Why? Because we need the single market, and they know it. Our foreign investors, and the importance of London.
Brexit is increasingly looking like the prefect definition of a pyrrhic victory. Still, the political cost it seems will be felt by the Labour Party.
He has "taken back control" right enough...
The Remain camp appears to have lost it's marbles a long time ago, that's why a Leaver as PM is the only sensible and proper choice.
Two other titbits from today's conflab:
1. The French has officially communicated "we will do nothing to harm our allies". That means they will do everything right up to the line. An offer to Scotland will be made - Italy and Spain have already been bought off
2. Heartened to learn that one of the men I most respect in France is pro Brexit. (Unbelievably bright, ineffably patient, utterly inscrutable.) This is because he believes it will clearly communicate to the French elites that things need to change. He sent a word text to my contact on the morning of the count : Bravo.
That isn't necessarily a problem (with natural growth, we're looking at around 1.5million by 2019). However, it's hard to adapt successfully due to our retarded planning system, our non-contributory welfare system and appalling house-building rates.
Other countries would be able to cope far more successfully than the UK.
It supposes he had a reputation.
Edited extra bit: that may be a bit harsh of me, but it is fair to say Grayling's time in office was not a blessed era of Justinianesque reformation.
*** Smug Face ***
Still, odds like that never come in. Ahem.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
Now, I must away to do something more productive. Try and stay nice to each other!
The govt were elected to run the country and that's what they must do, Osborne is sulking, his career is over, he's been well and truly exposed but he is the Chancellor of the Exchequer until he resigns or is sacked. Until then he should do the job he's paid to.
I think that everyone deserves the weekend off after a good job.
Some of the more regular posters on here are clearly holding down senior positions, no names of course, yet seem able to find the time to post here many times throughout the day and indeed throughout the week, every week.
"My dear, I think I've destroyed the Liberal Party"
George Osborne 2016
"Good News, My dear, I think I've destroyed the Labour Party"
"Bad News, My dear, I think I've also destroyed the Conservative Party"
Not bad for one person's political career.
You can see it coming.
In the last two threads David Herdson has unfortunately and ironically devalued himself.
https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/747084764289572865
Sorry, old boy, all that fear mongering didn't work over the last few months. It certainly isn't going to work now.
https://twitter.com/wrongisland/status/747054406026289152
@paulwaugh: Lab source tells me Corbyn will try to appoint new Shadow Cabinet this evening as show of defiance. Only prob: more may quit after that
PS 58% already having jobs by the they arrive in a new country sounds unbelievably high.
We have voted to leave the EU, it wasn't a General Election, Cameron is Prime Minister, Osborne is Chancellor. One has stomped off with his football, the other is crying in his bedroom.
Tbf a line that Boris has probably used more than Gove hitherto.
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/747068274752524288
I'll ask you the same question I asked Scott. If Gove, Boris, Hannan et al were to provide Cameron and Osborne with a 'timetable' of actions for the next three months, would you expect Cameron and Osborne to obey it? Simple yes or no question.
How can the current Remain supporting HoC (elected less than 14 months ago) sustain any Government that implements Brexit? Confidence would evaporate.
Would a new HoC support Brexit? I really have no idea.
Their credibility is zero and the only thing they have managed to do so far is make the Trade Unions ask for their expulsion and deselection.
'He wouldn't enjoy the comparison, but Mr Corbyn will soon be in the same position as West Berlin during the Cold War: encircled by enemies, it endured for decades because no one was willing to risk the catastrophic price of all-out war between east and west.
That is how much trouble Labour is now in. Its two choices are a hot war that splits it in two parts and possibly destroys both, or a cold one that drags on and on and saps the strength of both sides for years. '
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/jeremy-corbyns-labour-party-is-a-cult-even-losing-his-shadow-cab/
Miss Plato, Sky does seem to make a habit of being breathless these days.
I'm amazed Leave won after Warsi defected. ....
He wanted Brexit, He campaigned for Brexit. He doesn't want any of the things that are now happening.
As noted at the time, the front cover of the Brexit Spectator was a butterfly, average lifespan, less than a week
They could just as well be asking why Farage is not taking action to reassure people.
It's farcical.
Hannan was always opposed to ending Freedom of Movement, that's the nub of Leave's problems, they all promised different and often contradictory things up to Thursday in order to win now they are going to be fighting like ferrets in a sack for months.
I'm very disappointed in him. He needs to go too.
Needs to be kept in the shadows though, I think.. His closeness to Brown made him a target.
Having said that, we do tend to like a rise-from-the-ashes story in Britain. So who knows?
'There's a good article in Foreign Affairs arguing that the EU may end up better off post-Brexit, if it can hold together, partly because the UK has hardly been a constructive member, but mostly because it may act as the shock the EU needs to start some serious reforms.'
That's exactly what they said when French & Dutch voters rejected the Lisbon treaty,the serious reform undertaken was to change the name on the document.