Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
How can Nick Palmer sleep easily, knowing that Corbyn is part of the reason we have BREXITED?
Give him a break. No Labour leader would have made any difference whatsoever.
Bollocks. A leader who said Yes we should REMAIN but yes we do have a problem with Free Movement - as Balls did at the end - could have won over 1m voters.
FFS Half of Labour voters didn't know their own party was pro-EU!
And that's because Corbyn was so clearly eurosceptic, and barely tried to hide it. And see THIS:
Because the Dear Leader is wise and benign and imbued with all truth, his lies and hypocrisy are benevolent and have a meaning we cannot hope to understand. We must just let him be.
That we couldn't offer the same protections as before to Gib/how at risk they were from Spain blah blah, then he back tracked a bit and said Oh, but not on defence. He should've been reassuring them/there himself - not sat on a sofa here.
I'm very disappointed in him. He needs to go too.
He was only telling the truth.. Inside the EU pressure can be put on Spain, outside.. no one will care..
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
How can you possibly say they have no reason to be reassuring anyone. Banal.
If you fancy misquoting someone, you might want to try it using a facility that doesn't involve the person's direct quote being nested within yours. They have no BASIS to reassure people because any reassurances would involve a guarantee and timetable of competent Government activity over the next three months. They can't do that because *all together now* they're not IN government.
I'll ask you the same question I asked Scott. If Gove, Boris, Hannan et al were to provide Cameron and Osborne with a 'timetable' of actions for the next three months, would you expect Cameron and Osborne to obey it? Simple yes or no question.
They could just as well be asking why Farage is not taking action to reassure people.
It's farcical.
I can't believe they've been brought to this. These were people who used to appear normal. I suppose it's grief.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
How can Nick Palmer sleep easily, knowing that Corbyn is part of the reason we have BREXITED?
Give him a break. No Labour leader would have made any difference whatsoever.
So we didn't see tens of thousands of previous non-voters pouring out of the Labour heartlands to vote leave ? If Labour had made even a token effort to listen to their core while they were in power for more than a decade they might have felt rather less inclined to rebel when given a chance. Even in the EURef campaign no one wanted to talk to them because they were "thick racists" or some other appellation guaranteed to win their support.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
That we couldn't offer the same protections as before to Gib/how at risk they were from Spain blah blah, then he back tracked a bit and said Oh, but not on defence. He should've been reassuring them/there himself - not sat on a sofa here.
I'm very disappointed in him. He needs to go too.
That's not what he said. He said this:
“We will be less able to protect Gibraltar’s interests, not to defend Gibraltar’s territory, of course we can do that, but to protect Gibraltar’s interests if we are not in the European Union.”
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I agree. I am just wanting to find out what is actually going on. Are the Brexit camp ready to move forward but being prevented from doing so by the squatters?
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
The Tories need pensioners and home owners onside if they are going to have a chance of a majority. They will do all they can to keep house prices as high as possible. The best way to do that is to have fewer builds. That's one of the reasons why house builders saw their shares fall by so much in early trading on Friday.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
The majority of boomers are not rich , the London ones may have made plenty on houses etc, nothing similar elsewhere.
This simply isn't true Malc. Boomers are one of the richest demographics in society.
Perhaps, because we are among the oldest and so have had decades of saving behind us.
No, when Boomers were in their 20's people in their twenties were one of the richest segments of society. Pensioners were dirt poor. As the Boomers aged so the welath followed them to where we are now. The proportion of wealth between those who are in their twenties and those who are 65+ has almost completely reversed. All through their lives the boomers have been one of the wealthiest segments of society.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future.
It's interesting how little opprobrium there is for Dan Hannan, who having campaigned for the result, disowned the campaign as soon as it was over, has now "left Twitter for a month"
He has "taken back control" right enough...
Hannan was always opposed to ending Freedom of Movement, that's the nub of Leave's problems, they all promised different and often contradictory things up to Thursday in order to win now they are going to be fighting like ferrets in a sack for months.
Possibly correct. The reason for the Leavers' disappearance could be that they're in motorway cafe somewhere, desperately comparing notes.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
If what the public wanted when voting in the referendum was a wholesale clear-out of those at the top of the political parties, they certainly won't be disappointed with how things are panning out.
There's a good article in Foreign Affairs arguing that the EU may end up better off post-Brexit, if it can hold together, partly because the UK has hardly been a constructive member, but mostly because it may act as the shock the EU needs to start some serious reforms. The ALDE leader Guy V is already talking along these lines and his comments suggest that somewhere within the EU there is already some sort of a plan.
Everyone wants reform, they always have. This is true of all politicians everywhere. The problem is that for reform to actually happen, people have to agree on what reform they want.
And, more pertinently, politicians have to stick by their decisions once the inevitable losers of reform realize that it is themselves.
That we couldn't offer the same protections as before to Gib/how at risk they were from Spain blah blah, then he back tracked a bit and said Oh, but not on defence. He should've been reassuring them/there himself - not sat on a sofa here.
I'm very disappointed in him. He needs to go too.
That's not what he said.
Of course it wasn't - just another Leaver reaching out to embrace those on the remain side who reflect the views of the 48%!
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
How can you possibly say they have no reason to be reassuring anyone. Banal.
If you fancy misquoting someone, you might want to try it using a facility that doesn't involve the person's direct quote being nested within yours. They have no BASIS to reassure people because any reassurances would involve a guarantee and timetable of competent Government activity over the next three months. They can't do that because *all together now* they're not IN government.
I'll ask you the same question I asked Scott. If Gove, Boris, Hannan et al were to provide Cameron and Osborne with a 'timetable' of actions for the next three months, would you expect Cameron and Osborne to obey it? Simple yes or no question.
Basis/reason its a matter of semantics. Bearing in mind 17 million have just voted to leave the EU based on a campaign they run they should be explaining exactly what the master plan they have devised for Brexit is and some sort of timetable for its implementation. Or is that unrealistic?
I would like to think that they would give Cameron and Osborne a timetable of their planed actions so they could work together to make it as seamless as possible between them. I hope they are.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
How can you possibly say they have no reason to be reassuring anyone. Banal.
If you fancy misquoting someone, you might want to try it using a facility that doesn't involve the person's direct quote being nested within yours. They have no BASIS to reassure people because any reassurances would involve a guarantee and timetable of competent Government activity over the next three months. They can't do that because *all together now* they're not IN government.
I'll ask you the same question I asked Scott. If Gove, Boris, Hannan et al were to provide Cameron and Osborne with a 'timetable' of actions for the next three months, would you expect Cameron and Osborne to obey it? Simple yes or no question.
They could just as well be asking why Farage is not taking action to reassure people.
It's farcical.
I can't believe they've been brought to this. These were people who used to appear normal. I suppose it's grief.
Maybe they're just confusing the word 'referendum' with 'coup'. It's the only explanation for some of the bollocks I've been reading here this afternoon.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
The Tories need pensioners and home owners onside if they are going to have a chance of a majority. They will do all they can to keep house prices as high as possible. The best way to do that is to have fewer builds. That's one of the reasons why house builders saw their shares fall by so much in early trading on Friday.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
The majority of boomers are not rich , the London ones may have made plenty on houses etc, nothing similar elsewhere.
This simply isn't true Malc. Boomers are one of the richest demographics in society.
I must be the exception then, still got two big mortgages and plenty of debt, though I can afford to service it.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
How can Nick Palmer sleep easily, knowing that Corbyn is part of the reason we have BREXITED?
Give him a break. No Labour leader would have made any difference whatsoever.
Bollocks. A leader who said Yes we should REMAIN but yes we do have a problem with Free Movement - as Balls did at the end - could have won over 1m voters.
FFS Half of Labour voters didn't know their own party was pro-EU!
And that's because Corbyn was so clearly eurosceptic, and barely tried to hide it. And see THIS:
Because the Dear Leader is wise and benign and imbued with all truth, his lies and hypocrisy are benevolent and have a meaning we cannot hope to understand. We must just let him be.
Corbyn was "7 out of 10" in favour of the EU. One of the quotes of the campaign.
Turnout in Spain's parliamentary election was 36.9 percent at 1200 GMT on Sunday, according to official data, the same reading as in the December ballot.
Participation had been expected to fall from the last election after six months of bickering between political parties and as the summer holidays start.
A further turnout reading is due around 1630 GMT, before voting close at 1800 GMT, when the first exit polls will appear.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
Of course it's the usual suspects, they have been barking about a coup since last summer.
Their credibility is zero and the only thing they have managed to do so far is make the Trade Unions ask for their expulsion and deselection.
Then why didn't Corbyn have the strength to fire them months ago? You are talking nonsense and you know it.
Months ago it was not proved beyond doubt that the usual suspects lacked popular support, with the referendum it's has been proved beyond doubt that the likes of Benn and Kinnock carry no weight in their constituencies.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I agree. I am just wanting to find out what is actually going on. Are the Brexit camp ready to move forward but being prevented from doing so by the squatters?
I'm hoping that is the case. It's unfortunately not that apparent.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I agree. I am just wanting to find out what is actually going on. Are the Brexit camp ready to move forward but being prevented from doing so by the squatters?
If they are that would be quite wrong - but there is nothing to stop Gove, etc. from outlining their thinking to the public directly if that is the case. The fear is that they have no coherent thoughts to outline. hopefully I'm wrong.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
Is it just possible that Johnson or other prime minister, having disowned everything else about their campaign will disown the result itself? Not only was "control immigration" merely a "possibility" (IDS), but when we said "Leave" we actually mean "stay".
Sounds bonkers but is it any madder than what's gone so far?
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I agree. I am just wanting to find out what is actually going on. Are the Brexit camp ready to move forward but being prevented from doing so by the squatters?
All we are hearng is 'there is no plan'. Well someone better put a credible one together in the next day or two. We have no direction from government, we have no direction from the people who have forced the government to change to their direction, we have no opposition, we quite probably are facing the breakup of the country. yet we expect people to invest in this country and its currency.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
Somehow 120ish countries of the would do business with us without being in the single market, some of them are rather more prosperous than we are. If we stay with freedom of movement without at least substantial caveats there will be 30 UKIP seats in the next parliament and if they are lucky a Tory minority government.
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I agree. I am just wanting to find out what is actually going on. Are the Brexit camp ready to move forward but being prevented from doing so by the squatters?
Dave should come out and say, 'Look, it's been several days now. If I don't hear anything from Leave by close of play this evening then the vote is null and void.' That should hurry them up!
"... If you can solve to keep FoM in such a way that it allows BoJo to credibly claim that he has restricted it then it works."
Mr. Charles, I have been reading your posts on here on here with interest and seriousness for some few years. In that time I have never seen you descend to the language of the politicians.
That sentence is unworthy of you and your family. For what the sentence says, to me at least, is that it doesn't matter if FoM has been restricted as long as people can be tricked into thinking it has. Thats the sort of thing Ed Balls used to com up with, "We need to do X so that the electorate will believe Y" - it doesn't matter whether Y is true as long as we can get the plebs to believe it for long enough.
I apologise if I have picked you up on some loose language just after Sunday luncheon, but that sort of talk is really not on. It is in fact the sort of talk that has lead us to where we are today. The plebs have had enough of being conned by their betters.
He hasn't. That map is on the BBC's coverage just like the yellow and blue 'for children' one.
That scale is not the same one as the BBC are using. He's either recoloured the map or he's made up a bogus scale.
Edit, Quick investigation - Bogus Scale. For example Carlisle should be the darkest blue possible by his scale as they voted 60.1%. It isn't on his map.
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
This Labour coup has been in the making for some time by Progress whose plan is to bring back David Milliband as the white knight riding over the hill to save the Progress faction.I note there has been money for him today and he is now best priced 10-1.Alternatively,Alistair Meeks might have called it right some time back in his brother coming back as a unity,stability candidate.Ed can still be backed at 100-1.
Just got back from the pub. Corbyn still hanging on?
Of course he is, it's the usual suspects making the usual dogs dinner.
At the present moment it's more likely that Benn and the rest of them will be expelled from the Labour party.
The usual subjects? These are all people that agreed to sit in a Corbyn-appointed shadow cabinet. The idea that they are somehow "Blairites" is laughable.
Of course it's the usual suspects, they have been barking about a coup since last summer.
Their credibility is zero and the only thing they have managed to do so far is make the Trade Unions ask for their expulsion and deselection.
Then why didn't Corbyn have the strength to fire them months ago? You are talking nonsense and you know it.
Months ago it was not proved beyond doubt that the usual suspects lacked popular support, with the referendum it's has been proved beyond doubt that the likes of Benn and Kinnock carry no weight in their constituencies.
Desperate stuff. What was McDonnell saying about Malhotra on TV this morning?
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
The majority of boomers are not rich , the London ones may have made plenty on houses etc, nothing similar elsewhere.
This simply isn't true Malc. Boomers are one of the richest demographics in society.
Perhaps, because we are among the oldest and so have had decades of saving behind us.
No, when Boomers were in their 20's people in their twenties were one of the richest segments of society. Pensioners were dirt poor. As the Boomers aged so the welath followed them to where we are now. The proportion of wealth between those who are in their twenties and those who are 65+ has almost completely reversed. All through their lives the boomers have been one of the wealthiest segments of society.
Turnout in Spain's parliamentary election was 36.9 percent at 1200 GMT on Sunday, according to official data, the same reading as in the December ballot.
Participation had been expected to fall from the last election after six months of bickering between political parties and as the summer holidays start.
A further turnout reading is due around 1630 GMT, before voting close at 1800 GMT, when the first exit polls will appear.
Reminds me, I need to go out and get some more popcorn.
If what the public wanted when voting in the referendum was a wholesale clear-out of those at the top of the political parties, they certainly won't be disappointed with how things are panning out.
It's the most remarkable chain of events. And so many of us were just saying that by keeping his head down, Corbyn had avoided a mess.
Basis/reason its a matter of semantics. Bearing in mind 17 million have just voted to leave the EU based on a campaign they run they should be explaining exactly what the master plan they have devised for Brexit is and some sort of timetable for its implementation. Or is that unrealistic?
I would like to think that they would give Cameron and Osborne a timetable of their planed actions so they could work together to make it as seamless as possible between them. I hope they are.
and what happens if the next Tory leader doesn't have Gove or Boris or any prominent Leaver in her their cabinet ?
They cant speak on behalf of a job they dont have and might never have, and if they did no one would believe them. The only people that can speak credibly on the subject and the current and next PM and chancellor. But you know all this.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
But they're not in the govt. This is a dogs breakfast.
Shouldn't stop them being out there explaining what they want to happen next. We have been told repeatedly by Brexiters that you can't believe a word Osborne says so why would they now be wanting him to be out there trying to reassure the markets? As I said, this is Brexit's show now, get on with it.
Are you proposing a coup against the govt?
We have voted to leave the EU, it wasn't a General Election, Cameron is Prime Minister, Osborne is Chancellor. One has stomped off with his football, the other is crying in his bedroom.
Surely Johnson and Gove, had some sort of plan in place for when they won? Not we won, we won, you do something about it.
Dave should come out and say, 'Look, it's been several days now. If I don't hear anything from Leave by close of play this evening then the vote is null and void.' That should hurry them up!
This Labour coup has been in the making for some time by Progress whose plan is to bring back David Milliband as the white knight riding over the hill to save the Progress faction.I note there has been money for him today and he is now best priced 10-1.Alternatively,Alistair Meeks might have called it right some time back in his brother coming back as a unity,stability candidate.Ed can still be backed at 100-1.
David Milibands price is coming in after he was spotted on the phone at airport this morning...
Re the disappearance of Osborne, Cameron, Gove and Johnson.
I bet my house on it the lot of them and all their advisers have been working their bollocks off all weekend planning what to say next. The eyes of the world will be on them.
They need to make sure their next public appearance is perfect.
1. They need to reassure the country 2. They need to ensure the Tory party comes out of this as well and together as possible 3. Cameron and Osborne need to be given a dignified exit (important for future of the party) 4. They need to be crystal clear on what the next steps are 5. The need to let the EU know we mean business
Doing all that won't be easy. Some of it is mutually exclusive. This is an historic moment. The last thing Cameron and Osborne want are newsreels of them looking humiliated next to jovial Brexiteers (these political moments are gonna live for 1000 years). They'll want to look as statesmanlike as possible whilst keeping the party together and issuing a huge plan that puts Britain on the front foot.
It sounds a really difficult task and I suspect the main players don't feel much like being in the same room as one another. But the stakes are much bigger than personal bitterness. So I can see why they are taking their time.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement is fine. The problem is Free Movement of people in the rest of the EU means freedom to find a job. In Britain it means freedom to find a part time job which the Government then tops up to make worthwhile...
We then expected the EU to change their terms to solve our problem for us....
I suspect what a lot of people don't like about Freedom of Movement isn't really freedom of movement at all, its Article 8, and our inability therefrom to throw out phony asylum seekers and criminals of various hues. The incredulous public looking on as the government took years and millions of pounds to get Abu Hamza out the country did incalculable damage to the public opinion of free movement. Unfortunately we need to be out of the EU now to be able to ignore the EHCR.
I agree with you regarding article 8. However mass immigration on the scale and pace that we've seen since 2004 must be a factor. We seem to be so blase about it. We will see another million people here by 2019. Based on the ONS stats, only 58% have jobs on arrival.
That isn't necessarily a problem (with natural growth, we're looking at around 1.5million by 2019). However, it's hard to adapt successfully due to our retarded planning system, our non-contributory welfare system and appalling house-building rates.
Other countries would be able to cope far more successfully than the UK.
I believe there are two things with similar names only one of which is anything to do with the EU.
The ECHR comes from the Council for Europe just after World War Two and is largely based on the rights we have in English law. It's enforced by a Court which isn't part of the EU.
The Charter of Fundamental Rights is an EU invention (like VAT and according to some docs I've read equally unpleasant and unnecessary). I believe it even conflicts with English law in some respects. It's enforced by the EU Court of Justice.
But I'm not a lawyer; is there one who can help?!
Why weren't 'peripheral' countries including UK/ Ireland / Scandinavia allowed a partial opt out if they wished on freedom of movement so that immigrants needed a job offer first? This would have defused the problem.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
The only thing that is needed for Italy to leave the EU and join the British position is for an anti-EU party to come first in votes.
This is knackering. You try to escape and this monumental clusterfuck sucks you back in.
I'm still not getting any fucking work done.
Aaaaaargh
Somebody asked me pre-thread what might induce buyer's remorse, in me (Bremorse is the technical term). If this howling chaos continues that might do it, simply because I need to concentrate, and earn some bloody cash.
You'll need that cash pal to offset your negative equity.
Lower house prices are good for those seeking to buy a house and those seeking to buy a more expensive house. The majority.
Higher house prices only benefit those exiting the housing market or downsizing.
Note also a lower pound is good for UK exports, especially when we have such a need to increase exports and close the big trade gap.
Lower house prices is one of the few potential silver linings, but only if everything else doesn't collapse as well.
A lower £ is only good news if it doesn't lead to an inflation-interest rates spiral.
Most pensioners are mortgage free, surely? I'm much more concerned about lower house prices for my kids. If we don't get behind lower house prices, then some of the rancour is justified - it's just boomers being selfish c*nts.
The majority of boomers are not rich , the London ones may have made plenty on houses etc, nothing similar elsewhere.
This simply isn't true Malc. Boomers are one of the richest demographics in society.
Perhaps, because we are among the oldest and so have had decades of saving behind us.
No, when Boomers were in their 20's people in their twenties were one of the richest segments of society. Pensioners were dirt poor. As the Boomers aged so the welath followed them to where we are now. The proportion of wealth between those who are in their twenties and those who are 65+ has almost completely reversed. All through their lives the boomers have been one of the wealthiest segments of society.
@EdConwaySky: Leave now saying govt needs to come up with the Brexit plan, not them Hang on. Wasn’t the point to take control BACK from the establishment?
Kind of missing the point that Cameron hasn't given up anything yet. Unless you are suggesting an armed coup and take over of Government I am afraid both you and Ed will have to wait until Cameron decides to surrender the reins of power.
The Tories need to sort themselves out, we can't have Boris/Gove saying 'nothing to do with us mate' and Cameron/Osborne sulking.
I agree. I am just wanting to find out what is actually going on. Are the Brexit camp ready to move forward but being prevented from doing so by the squatters?
It's probably somewhere in between. There isn't a settled view on post-brexit UK-EU relations for the brexit camp so they wouldn't have been able to act immediately even if they did have complete control of the levers of government.
However, they cannot even open informal discussions with the EU due to the fact that DC, GO and PH are all still in post, and will be for a number of months. If DC were to appoint Gove as chief negotiator it still wouldn't solve this, as Gove wouldn't necesarilly be representative of the next PM.
Ultimately we are in a holding pattern until the leadership of the Conservative Party is resolved. Until that time it is the duty of the current PM and Chancellor to continue the business of government and reassure the markets. DC cannot continue to push legislation through parliament and reasonably claim he has no duty to try and calm issues in the markets. You are either the PM or you're not the PM!
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
'The country I live in voted 2:1 Remain and I just don't want to admit it' alert.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
The only thing that is needed for Italy to leave the EU and join the British position is for an anti-EU party to come first in votes.
This Labour coup has been in the making for some time by Progress whose plan is to bring back David Milliband as the white knight riding over the hill to save the Progress faction.I note there has been money for him today and he is now best priced 10-1.Alternatively,Alistair Meeks might have called it right some time back in his brother coming back as a unity,stability candidate.Ed can still be backed at 100-1.
David Milibands price is coming in after he was spotted on the phone at airport this morning...
Be a great idea for David Miliband, Tony Blair's chief adviser, to answer the Chilcott Report as Lab leader.
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
The best map would have used rainbow colouring, red through to violet.
He hasn't. That map is on the BBC's coverage just like the yellow and blue 'for children' one.
That scale is not the same one as the BBC are using. He's either recoloured the map or he's made up a bogus scale.
Edit, Quick investigation - Bogus Scale. For example Carlisle should be the darkest blue possible by his scale as they voted 60.1%. It isn't on his map.
What in living **** are you on about? It's not HIS MAP it's a direct screen grab off the BBC website! The only thing he's done is taken off the '70%+' bit of their scale because no-one voted 70%+.
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
But they're not in the govt. This is a dogs breakfast.
Shouldn't stop them being out there explaining what they want to happen next. We have been told repeatedly by Brexiters that you can't believe a word Osborne says so why would they now be wanting him to be out there trying to reassure the markets? As I said, this is Brexit's show now, get on with it.
Are you proposing a coup against the govt?
We have voted to leave the EU, it wasn't a General Election, Cameron is Prime Minister, Osborne is Chancellor. One has stomped off with his football, the other is crying in his bedroom.
Surely Johnson and Gove, had some sort of plan in place for when they won? Not we won, we won, you do something about it.
That is rather like saying that CND should have made plans for the MoD's revised conventional weapons spending in case they succeeded in getting unilateral disarmament. Its not the job of campaign groups to make plans, its the job of governments.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
Somehow 120ish countries of the would do business with us without being in the single market, some of them are rather more prosperous than we are. If we stay with freedom of movement without at least substantial caveats there will be 30 UKIP seats in the next parliament and if they are lucky a Tory minority government.
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
But nor can they entirely ignore the 48.2% of Britons, and two of the four nations in the UK, which all voted REMAIN.
It was a nuanced result. It just was.
We need either a General Election where all sides can present their ideas for the future, or a 2nd referendum on our further options, or both.
Boris himself envisaged a 2nd referendum and a renegotiation, following Brexit. That must be his desire. If he can pull it off and get some deal on FoM while keeping us in the EU, he could still emerge as the hero of the hour.
I'm genuinely puzzled by the idea that 48% of the country would now want to be completely ignored and effectively disenfranchised simply so a minority can throw stones and hoot 'told you so' (but only via social media of course). Where are the intelligent Remainers? People who understand how parlimentary democracy works in practice? Anybody out there?
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
Somehow 120ish countries of the would do business with us without being in the single market, some of them are rather more prosperous than we are. If we stay with freedom of movement without at least substantial caveats there will be 30 UKIP seats in the next parliament and if they are lucky a Tory minority government.
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
But nor can they entirely ignore the 48.2% of Britons, and two of the four nations in the UK, which all voted REMAIN.
It was a nuanced result. It just was.
We need either a General Election where all sides can present their ideas for the future, or a 2nd referendum on our further options, or both.
Boris himself envisaged a 2nd referendum and a renegotiation, following Brexit. That must be his desire. If he can pull it off and get some deal on FoM while keeping us in the EU, he could still emerge as the hero of the hour.
I would agree with that. Surely there`s something afoot behind the scenes.
'First, if anyone is undemocratic enough to think that there can be a new leadership election with the existing leader kept off the ballot, then they are setting the Labour party on course for a split.
And second, Unite has hitherto opposed any plans to change the party rules governing mandatory re-selection of Labour MPs. That, too, we have looked on as a divisive distraction.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
I don't see it.
Either the principle of free movement in the single market is watered down or we're out.
Free movement is fine. The problem is Free Movement of people in the rest of the EU means freedom to find a job. In Britain it means freedom to find a part time job which the Government then tops up to make worthwhile...
We then expected the EU to change their terms to solve our problem for us....
I suspect what a lot of people don't like about Freedom of Movement isn't really freedom of movement at all, its Article 8, and our inability therefrom to throw out phony asylum seekers and criminals of various hues. The incredulous public looking on as the government took years and millions of pounds to get Abu Hamza out the country did incalculable damage to the public opinion of free movement. Unfortunately we need to be out of the EU now to be able to ignore the EHCR.
I agree with you regarding article 8. However mass immigration on the scale and pace that we've seen since 2004 must be a factor. We seem to be so blase about it. We will see another million people here by 2019. Based on the ONS stats, only 58% have jobs on arrival.
That isn't necessarily a problem (with natural growth, we're looking at around 1.5million by 2019). However, it's hard to adapt successfully due to our retarded planning system, our non-contributory welfare system and appalling house-building rates.
Other countries would be able to cope far more successfully than the UK.
I believe there are two things with similar names only one of which is anything to do with the EU.
The ECHR comes from the Council for Europe just after World War Two and is largely based on the rights we have in English law. It's enforced by a Court which isn't part of the EU.
The Charter of Fundamental Rights is an EU invention (like VAT and according to some docs I've read equally unpleasant and unnecessary). I believe it even conflicts with English law in some respects. It's enforced by the EU Court of Justice.
But I'm not a lawyer; is there one who can help?!
Why weren't 'peripheral' countries including UK/ Ireland / Scandinavia allowed a partial opt out if they wished on freedom of movement so that immigrants needed a job offer first? This would have defused the problem.
The rulings of the ECHR are enforced by the ECJ, so by being in the EU we have to do what the ECHR wants, outside the EU we can chose to ignore it with no real comeback.
Anyone else find the staggered resignations a bit ridiculous? I don't think it will have any effect on Corbyn or his supporters.
Presumably it's designed to make it very difficult for him to complete a reshuffle, whilst keeping spokespeople guessing on the scale when commenting on it.
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
The best map would have used rainbow colouring, red through to violet.
Yes, I tend to agree. In fact, the only reason I saw that map was that I was looking for a 'referendum heat map' precisely to counter the (imo deliberately) very polarising and misleading BBC headline map. Even Dimbleby seemed a bit embarrassed by it and kept referring to the fact they were not constituencies throughout the night.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
Somehow 120ish countries of the would do business with us without being in the single market, some of them are rather more prosperous than we are. If we stay with freedom of movement without at least substantial caveats there will be 30 UKIP seats in the next parliament and if they are lucky a Tory minority government.
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
But nor can they entirely ignore the 48.2% of Britons, and two of the four nations in the UK, which all voted REMAIN.
It was a nuanced result. It just was.
We need either a General Election where all sides can present their ideas for the future, or a 2nd referendum on our further options, or both.
Boris himself envisaged a 2nd referendum and a renegotiation, following Brexit. That must be his desire. If he can pull it off and get some deal on FoM while keeping us in the EU, he could still emerge as the hero of the hour.
He hasn't. That map is on the BBC's coverage just like the yellow and blue 'for children' one.
That scale is not the same one as the BBC are using. He's either recoloured the map or he's made up a bogus scale.
Edit, Quick investigation - Bogus Scale. For example Carlisle should be the darkest blue possible by his scale as they voted 60.1%. It isn't on his map.
What in living **** are you on about? It's not HIS MAP it's a direct screen grab off the BBC website! The only thing he's done is taken off the '70%+' bit of their scale because no-one voted 70%+.
Batshit doesn't cover it.
Yes, the BBC map has the correct scale on it.
His scale is wrong.
W-R-O-N-G.
Carlisle voted 60.1% Leave. By the Scale he has posted next to the map it should be the darkest Blue possible as that is for anything over 60%. It isn't. Because his scale is wrong. The Lighest Blue is apparently <10% Leave which is wrong as well.
The scale is wrong. It is incorrect.
Plenty of places voted over 70% or does South Holland not exist?
I think HMG will start moving on Monday. There must have been countless crisis meetings over the weekend. Cameron would do well to announce the creation of a new government department to handle Brexit.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
Somehow 120ish countries of the would do business with us without being in the single market, some of them are rather more prosperous than we are. If we stay with freedom of movement without at least substantial caveats there will be 30 UKIP seats in the next parliament and if they are lucky a Tory minority government.
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
But nor can they entirely ignore the 48.2% of Britons, and two of the four nations in the UK, which all voted REMAIN.
It was a nuanced result. It just was.
We need either a General Election where all sides can present their ideas for the future, or a 2nd referendum on our further options, or both.
Boris himself envisaged a 2nd referendum and a renegotiation, following Brexit. That must be his desire. If he can pull it off and get some deal on FoM while keeping us in the EU, he could still emerge as the hero of the hour.
Basis/reason its a matter of semantics. Bearing in mind 17 million have just voted to leave the EU based on a campaign they run they should be explaining exactly what the master plan they have devised for Brexit is and some sort of timetable for its implementation. Or is that unrealistic?
I would like to think that they would give Cameron and Osborne a timetable of their planed actions so they could work together to make it as seamless as possible between them. I hope they are.
and what happens if the next Tory leader doesn't have Gove or Boris or any prominent Leaver in her their cabinet ?
They cant speak on behalf of a job they dont have and might never have, and if they did no one would believe them. The only people that can speak credibly on the subject and the current and next PM and chancellor. But you know all this.
I take your point BUT as you also know Boris and Gove were the faces of the Leave Campaign so what they do now is important. They have a responsibility to the country. I hope and imagine they are working with Cameron and Osborne to make sure tomorrow they present as united a front as possible, and give us more details about the future.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
The only thing that is needed for Italy to leave the EU and join the British position is for an anti-EU party to come first in votes.
The Five Star movement, though, is not a coherent, anti-EU party. They have called for - at various points in the last two years - a single European language (Latin?), and a single European government. Beppe Grillo himself said that (and I'm only slightly paraphrasing here): "Italy should have a referendum on whether to stay in the Euro, unless the Germans make it worth our while to stay, wink wink."
They are almost like LibDems of old, in that they can be defined by their opposition to almost everything.
Now, there is a serious, sensible, right wing Eurosceptic party in Italy: Lega Norda (plus their Southern sister party). Sadly the right wing (sensible Eurosceptic) vote in Italy is split between them and Forza Italia, a party that seems to exist solely to keep Berlusconi out of prison.
Edit to add: the Five Star Movement attempted to join The Alliance of Liberals and Democrats European parliament grouping, but was rejected. That's the same group the LibDem (singular) is in.
Edit to add 2: Just so you realise just how wanky this bunch is. From Wikipedia: The "five stars" are a reference to five key issues for the party: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism.
One thing is certain, I reckon, and that is that we will stay in the single market, or as close to it as possible. This will piss off a lot of LEAVE voters, as we will still have Freedom of Movement.
Somehow 120ish countries of the would do business with us without being in the single market, some of them are rather more prosperous than we are. If we stay with freedom of movement without at least substantial caveats there will be 30 UKIP seats in the next parliament and if they are lucky a Tory minority government.
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
But nor can they entirely ignore the 48.2% of Britons, and two of the four nations in the UK, which all voted REMAIN.
It was a nuanced result. It just was.
We need either a General Election where all sides can present their ideas for the future, or a 2nd referendum on our further options, or both.
Boris himself envisaged a 2nd referendum and a renegotiation, following Brexit. That must be his desire. If he can pull it off and get some deal on FoM while keeping us in the EU, he could still emerge as the hero of the hour.
There should be no 2nd referendum (not that I advocate one without any change in EU treaties) before an election. That way prospective MPs will have to be clear on their stance over issues like free movement.
I think HMG will start moving on Monday. There must have been countless crisis meetings over the weekend. Cameron would do well to announce the creation of a new government department to handle Brexit.
Comments
The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
“We will be less able to protect Gibraltar’s interests, not to defend Gibraltar’s territory, of course we can do that, but to protect Gibraltar’s interests if we are not in the European Union.”
A statement of fact.
It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/570174396658266112
Or to queer the pitch for a Boris ascendancy as there would be no role for Osborne in it?
I would like to think that they would give Cameron and Osborne a timetable of their planed actions so they could work together to make it as seamless as possible between them. I hope they are.
Turnout in Spain's parliamentary election was 36.9 percent at 1200 GMT on Sunday, according to official data, the same reading as in the December ballot.
Participation had been expected to fall from the last election after six months of bickering between political parties and as the summer holidays start.
A further turnout reading is due around 1630 GMT, before voting close at 1800 GMT, when the first exit polls will appear.
http://www.rogerdarlington.me.uk/Italianpoliticalsystem.html
If Brexit doesn't include an end to Freedom of Movement then half the Leave voters will be furious they were sold a pup and all the remainers will believe the referendum was fraudulently won on a false prospectus. People voted for completely out, Leave can't simply ignore that once they have won, much as I suspect many of them would like to.
"... If you can solve to keep FoM in such a way that it allows BoJo to credibly claim that he has restricted it then it works."
Mr. Charles, I have been reading your posts on here on here with interest and seriousness for some few years. In that time I have never seen you descend to the language of the politicians.
That sentence is unworthy of you and your family. For what the sentence says, to me at least, is that it doesn't matter if FoM has been restricted as long as people can be tricked into thinking it has. Thats the sort of thing Ed Balls used to com up with, "We need to do X so that the electorate will believe Y" - it doesn't matter whether Y is true as long as we can get the plebs to believe it for long enough.
I apologise if I have picked you up on some loose language just after Sunday luncheon, but that sort of talk is really not on. It is in fact the sort of talk that has lead us to where we are today. The plebs have had enough of being conned by their betters.
Edit, Quick investigation - Bogus Scale. For example Carlisle should be the darkest blue possible by his scale as they voted 60.1%. It isn't on his map.
Oops
They cant speak on behalf of a job they dont have and might never have, and if they did no one would believe them. The only people that can speak credibly on the subject and the current and next PM and chancellor. But you know all this.
I bet my house on it the lot of them and all their advisers have been working their bollocks off all weekend planning what to say next. The eyes of the world will be on them.
They need to make sure their next public appearance is perfect.
1. They need to reassure the country
2. They need to ensure the Tory party comes out of this as well and together as possible
3. Cameron and Osborne need to be given a dignified exit (important for future of the party)
4. They need to be crystal clear on what the next steps are
5. The need to let the EU know we mean business
Doing all that won't be easy. Some of it is mutually exclusive. This is an historic moment. The last thing Cameron and Osborne want are newsreels of them looking humiliated next to jovial Brexiteers (these political moments are gonna live for 1000 years). They'll want to look as statesmanlike as possible whilst keeping the party together and issuing a huge plan that puts Britain on the front foot.
It sounds a really difficult task and I suspect the main players don't feel much like being in the same room as one another. But the stakes are much bigger than personal bitterness. So I can see why they are taking their time.
The ECHR comes from the Council for Europe just after World War Two and is largely based on the rights we have in English law. It's enforced by a Court which isn't part of the EU.
The Charter of Fundamental Rights is an EU invention (like VAT and according to some docs I've read equally unpleasant and unnecessary). I believe it even conflicts with English law in some respects. It's enforced by the EU Court of Justice.
But I'm not a lawyer; is there one who can help?!
Why weren't 'peripheral' countries including UK/ Ireland / Scandinavia allowed a partial opt out if they wished on freedom of movement so that immigrants needed a job offer first? This would have defused the problem.
And are not very far from first place:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Italian_general_election
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/747083980726476800
However, they cannot even open informal discussions with the EU due to the fact that DC, GO and PH are all still in post, and will be for a number of months. If DC were to appoint Gove as chief negotiator it still wouldn't solve this, as Gove wouldn't necesarilly be representative of the next PM.
Ultimately we are in a holding pattern until the leadership of the Conservative Party is resolved. Until that time it is the duty of the current PM and Chancellor to continue the business of government and reassure the markets. DC cannot continue to push legislation through parliament and reasonably claim he has no duty to try and calm issues in the markets. You are either the PM or you're not the PM!
@Roh_Yakobi: Former @andyburnhammp backer calls him "British Chris Christie". #Jexit https://t.co/lvFYUmaAxA
Sore Losers.
Anna Soubry and who?
Batshit doesn't cover it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36635086
'First, if anyone is undemocratic enough to think that there can be a new leadership election with the existing leader kept off the ballot, then they are setting the Labour party on course for a split.
And second, Unite has hitherto opposed any plans to change the party rules governing mandatory re-selection of Labour MPs. That, too, we have looked on as a divisive distraction.
But those MPs who have missed no opportunity to tweet and brief against the party’s elected leader over the last 10 months will find that their disloyalty finds no favour with party members and will make this an increasingly difficult line to hold.'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/labour-mutineers-betraying-national-interest
https://twitter.com/adw1991/status/747086359848976389
More seriously Anna Soubry and Stephen Crabb.
Your tone also suggest you regret voting Leave
His scale is wrong.
W-R-O-N-G.
Carlisle voted 60.1% Leave. By the Scale he has posted next to the map it should be the darkest Blue possible as that is for anything over 60%. It isn't. Because his scale is wrong. The Lighest Blue is apparently <10% Leave which is wrong as well.
The scale is wrong. It is incorrect.
Plenty of places voted over 70% or does South Holland not exist?
"Rollercoaster crashes at M&D's theme park in Motherwell"
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
They are almost like LibDems of old, in that they can be defined by their opposition to almost everything.
Now, there is a serious, sensible, right wing Eurosceptic party in Italy: Lega Norda (plus their Southern sister party). Sadly the right wing (sensible Eurosceptic) vote in Italy is split between them and Forza Italia, a party that seems to exist solely to keep Berlusconi out of prison.
Edit to add: the Five Star Movement attempted to join The Alliance of Liberals and Democrats European parliament grouping, but was rejected. That's the same group the LibDem (singular) is in.
Edit to add 2: Just so you realise just how wanky this bunch is. From Wikipedia: The "five stars" are a reference to five key issues for the party: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism.
https://twitter.com/TheSun/status/747092300057223168
Forget about the politics, this is an actual emergency and tragedy.