So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
No. A few tens of thousands were proven to be fake. There is a difference.
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
'The country I live in voted 2:1 Remain and I just don't want to admit it' alert.
Why would I fly in the face of recorded fact? My point is that a big block of yellow doesn't indicate 2 to 1, it indicates all of Scotland vs. the vast majority of England. If you're trying to stir up anti-English sentiment, quite useful. But let's not pretend it is a truthful representation of what happened.
Right, these people totally know what they're doing.
Boris is not the bumbling fool that he looks. In London, kept things well in hand. Under Sadiq, already knife crime is up and I say this as a Labour supporter
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
It really should though. Leave won and whatever we think about that individually is irrelevant. At least give them a chance to show how it's going to work after negotiations with the EU. The mass hysteria isn't helping anyone.
If what the public wanted when voting in the referendum was a wholesale clear-out of those at the top of the political parties, they certainly won't be disappointed with how things are panning out.
Well the big winners south of the border may be the LDs - their poor size (in MP terms) and relative low political clout has kept them below the media spotlight and maybe some of the young might decide that they are not so bad after all.
If Labour split we may yet see the formation of the "Liberal Democrats Democrats" in 10 years time.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
It really should though. Leave won and whatever we think about that individually is irrelevant. At least give them a chance to show how it's going to work after negotiations with the EU. The mass hysteria isn't helping anyone.
4chan were faking it. Trust me, they're very very good at that. It isn't tens of thousands of fake votes, it's enough to send Bieber to North Korea, Katy Perry to Iran, etc, etc.
1922 need to tell Cameron to sack Osborne and make May Chancellor.
May needs to make lots of reassuring noises to sooth the markets.
May needs to get rid of Carney and bring Mervyn back for six months.
HMQ needs to summon Cameron to the Palace and find out whether he still commands a majority of House of Commons.
The Tories leadership election needs to be started with a one month deadline for the result (3, 4, 5 month election is a non starter in the circumstances)
Cameron should step down as Con leader with an interim leader taking over.
Boris, Gove and Gisela need to outline exactly what the Brexit plan is and what they are going to do.
The PLP should all go home and have a lie down on a darkened room.
Is anyone running a post event "how would you vote in an EU Referendum now" poll? Usually after GE the winning side gets a poll boost, wonder if thats what would happen now with Leave share? Would be informative
"Dave should come out and say, 'Look, it's been several days now. If I don't hear anything from Leave by close of play this evening then the vote is null and void.' That should hurry them up!"
Give it another couple of days, you'll feel better then.
The referendum was a binary vote, not a pick and mix one. Do we stay or do we go? We had an answer. Now all it requires is for DC to steer us through to a Tory cat-fight and then hand over responsibility for running the country to whoever takes over as leader. But you know that already, don't you?
I think HMG will start moving on Monday. There must have been countless crisis meetings over the weekend. Cameron would do well to announce the creation of a new government department to handle Brexit.
I think he was referring to this:
twitter.com/TheSun/status/747092300057223168 Forget about the politics, this is an actual emergency and tragedy.
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification. Made a comment on it down thread.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
That's amusing, as is Farage's call for a 2nd referendum if the result was 52:48.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Mr. SMukesh, as a non-Londoner I have no idea what crime powers the mayor has. Thought it was mostly transport. What's the crime policy difference between Boris and Khan?
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
The only thing that is needed for Italy to leave the EU and join the British position is for an anti-EU party to come first in votes.
The Five Star movement, though, is not a coherent, anti-EU party. They have called for - at various points in the last two years - a single European language (Latin?), and a single European government. Beppe Grillo himself said that (and I'm only slightly paraphrasing here): "Italy should have a referendum on whether to stay in the Euro, unless the Germans make it worth our while to stay, wink wink."
They are almost like LibDems of old, in that they can be defined by their opposition to almost everything.
Now, there is a serious, sensible, right wing Eurosceptic party in Italy: Lega Norda (plus their Southern sister party). Sadly the right wing (sensible Eurosceptic) vote in Italy is split between them and Forza Italia, a party that seems to exist solely to keep Berlusconi out of prison.
Edit to add: the Five Star Movement attempted to join The Alliance of Liberals and Democrats European parliament grouping, but was rejected. That's the same group the LibDem (singular) is in.
Edit to add 2: Just so you realise just how wanky this bunch is. From Wikipedia: The "five stars" are a reference to five key issues for the party: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism.
have you seen anything on which way the election in Spain is heading ?
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Highly probably done by Remainers. We live in the age of the democratisation of the false flag. I've seen members of forums and posters in news threads join under aliases specifically to make 'a side' look awful. Horrid practise. I think I'd feel utterly empty inside if I were to do that. But it happens.
1922 need to tell Cameron to sack Osborne and make May Chancellor.
May needs to make lots of reassuring noises to sooth the markets.
May needs to get rid of Carney and bring Mervyn back for six months.
HMQ needs to summon Cameron to the Palace and find out whether he still commands a majority of House of Commons.
The Tories leadership election needs to be started with a one month deadline for the result (3, 4, 5 month election is a non starter in the circumstances)
Cameron should step down as Con leader with an interim leader taking over.
Boris, Gove and Gisela need to outline exactly what the Brexit plan is and what they are going to do.
The PLP should all go home and have a lie down on a darkened room.
Anything else?
"May needs to get rid of Carney and bring Mervyn back for six months."
Are you mad?! Carney has the confidence of the markets.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
No. A few tens of thousands were proven to be fake. There is a difference.
Officials working for the Petitions Committee investigated and decided that around 80,000 were fake. I don't question their decision. There are always some idiots. That's 2% of the total - not a remarkable figure for any petition.
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
'The country I live in voted 2:1 Remain and I just don't want to admit it' alert.
If you're trying to stir up anti-English sentiment, quite useful.
Ah, a quick break from 'absolutely no xenephobic, Brexit-induced racism to see here' to return to that old, comforting favourite, anti-Englishness.
Can the EU survive if the Netherlands pulls out? Latest poll shows 45% supporting Nexit.
Come on in [OUT], the water's lovely...
I think France or Italy will be the next one. The Dutch have a PR system that makes any anti-EU government pretty impossible, but France has a presidential system and Italy doesn't have PR.
It's definitely doable with British encouragement.
Yeah, Italy has a weird system where the winning party gets a boost of their seats to ensure a majority
I take your point BUT as you also know Boris and Gove were the faces of the Leave Campaign so what they do now is important. They have a responsibility to the country. I hope and imagine they are working with Cameron and Osborne to make sure tomorrow they present as united a front as possible, and give us more details about the future.
Its a much bigger clusterf*ck than that.
Suppose what you (and I) hope is happening, is actually happening, Dave, George, Boris and Mike are sitting somewhere quite beavering away on a plan. They annouce on Monday they they plan to do X, Y and Z and prepared to compromise with the EU on A, B and C in order to get D, E and F.
Then in three months time we get a new PM and new cabinet, who decide that actually they dont like any of what has been proposed.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
No. A few tens of thousands were proven to be fake. There is a difference.
Officials working for the Petitions Committee investigated and decided that around 80,000 were fake. I don't question their decision. There are always some idiots. That's 2% of the total - not a remarkable figure for any petition.
Yes, the ones that could be proven to be fake.
One wonders why people from other countries are allowed to sign the petition in the first place.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
That's amusing, as is Farage's call for a 2nd referendum if the result was 52:48.
Do you have a link?
I understand Farage committed to fight on, but I hadn't seen him demanding a re-run. The two things are very different.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Highly probably done by Remainers. We live in the age of the democratisation of the false flag. I've seen members of forums and posters in news threads join under aliases specifically to make 'a side' look awful. Horrid practise. I think I'd feel utterly empty inside if I were to do that. But it happens.
So there's no such thing as a cretinous xenophobe - they're all people in favour of EU membership pretending. You must have lived a seriously sheltered existence.
1922 need to tell Cameron to sack Osborne and make May Chancellor.
May needs to make lots of reassuring noises to sooth the markets.
May needs to get rid of Carney and bring Mervyn back for six months.
HMQ needs to summon Cameron to the Palace and find out whether he still commands a majority of House of Commons.
The Tories leadership election needs to be started with a one month deadline for the result (3, 4, 5 month election is a non starter in the circumstances)
Cameron should step down as Con leader with an interim leader taking over.
Boris, Gove and Gisela need to outline exactly what the Brexit plan is and what they are going to do.
The PLP should all go home and have a lie down on a darkened room.
Anything else?
I think you should have a lie down. Take your tablets first.
Mr. SMukesh, as a non-Londoner I have no idea what crime powers the mayor has. Thought it was mostly transport. What's the crime policy difference between Boris and Khan?</blockquo
Policing is under the mayor though I can`t tell you straightaway what the policy differences are.
That we couldn't offer the same protections as before to Gib/how at risk they were from Spain blah blah, then he back tracked a bit and said Oh, but not on defence. He should've been reassuring them/there himself - not sat on a sofa here.
I'm very disappointed in him. He needs to go too.
Low profile doesn't come close in terms of describing Hammond's term at the F&C Office ..... once a possible contender for the Tory Leadership (as indeed any Foreign Secretary would normally expect to be), but he's totally invisible and stands absolutely no chance of succeeding Cameron. Should Dave decide to have a re-shuffle in the near future (perhaps tomorrow even?), this could prove to be of major proportions, especially if Osborne wants out, Greening may also go ahead of the expected imminent "Yes" decision as regards the new Heathrow Runway, I see Hammond being demoted or removed, plus of course there's Boris to be accommodated. What with all the goings on in the Labour Party, the fun and games aren't over yet, not by a long chalk.
"... If you can solve to keep FoM in such a way that it allows BoJo to credibly claim that he has restricted it then it works."
Mr. Charles, I have been reading your posts on here on here with interest and seriousness for some few years. In that time I have never seen you descend to the language of the politicians.
That sentence is unworthy of you and your family. For what the sentence says, to me at least, is that it doesn't matter if FoM has been restricted as long as people can be tricked into thinking it has. Thats the sort of thing Ed Balls used to com up with, "We need to do X so that the electorate will believe Y" - it doesn't matter whether Y is true as long as we can get the plebs to believe it for long enough.
I apologise if I have picked you up on some loose language just after Sunday luncheon, but that sort of talk is really not on. It is in fact the sort of talk that has lead us to where we are today. The plebs have had enough of being conned by their betters.
I was meaning keeping the principle of FoM (to satisfy the EU) while addressing the negative outcomes it can generate. If you can find a way that effectively restricts free movement to the UK to being from western Europe then I think the impact on the ordinary person in the UK will be far less I quite like having a GDP per capita ratio as a way of doing this (ie you have FoM if your GDP per capita is no less than 90% of that in the UK) but very open to other suggestions.
I think that falls into the territory of reasonable compromise even if it isn't the absolute letter of what people voted for.
Has anyone got a good estimate of how many MPs actually back Boris? He might not make it as far as the membership.
There hasn't been a second Leaver to divide the vote, so far the consensus among the Leave camp is that Boris is their candidate, so probably 140 MP's for Boris.
On the Remain camp I think they don't have a natural leader and they know there is no appetite for a Remainer for leader anyway.
So it's a prank? A lot of the media are still reporting it as bona fide. The BBC made it one of their main items on the Radio 4 News at one o'clock.
As I understand it, a few tens of thousands of signatures, out of 3.2 million, are believed to be fake. A ComRes poll found that 14% of Leave voters want a second EU referendum.
The petition was actually started by a guy from the English Democrat Party who supports Leave, and it got very few signatures before the vote. He wanted Leave to get a second bite of the cherry if they lost. He now absurdly claims that the petition has been "hijacked" by the Remain side.
The call for a second referendum isn't going to go away.
No. A few tens of thousands were proven to be fake. There is a difference.
On a first inspection. If a few tens of thousands are prove fake, a few hundred thousand are almost certainly fake as well. The petition system was always a joke, its not turning into a bad and fatally flawed joke.
That we couldn't offer the same protections as before to Gib/how at risk they were from Spain blah blah, then he back tracked a bit and said Oh, but not on defence. He should've been reassuring them/there himself - not sat on a sofa here.
I'm very disappointed in him. He needs to go too.
Low profile doesn't come close in terms of describing Hammond's term at the F&C Office ..... once a possible contender for the Tory Leadership (as indeed any Foreign Secretary would normally expect to be), but he's totally invisible and stands absolutely no chance of succeeding Cameron. Should Dave decide to have a re-shuffle in the near future (perhaps tomorrow even?), this could prove to be of major proportions, especially if Osborne wants out, Greening may also go ahead of the expected imminent "Yes" decision as regards the new Heathrow Runway, I see Hammond being demoted or removed, plus of course there's Boris to be accommodated. What with all the goings on in the Labour Party, the fun and games aren't over yet, not by a long chalk.
Impossible to not see third runway decision being delayed given the context of the Leadership race.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Sean, certainly disgusting behaviour that must be stamped out. Equally disgusting, however, is some of the shit I've seen on Facebook. One friend of mine was happily advocating banning uneducated (rather than stupid) people from voting.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Highly probably done by Remainers. We live in the age of the democratisation of the false flag. I've seen members of forums and posters in news threads join under aliases specifically to make 'a side' look awful. Horrid practise. I think I'd feel utterly empty inside if I were to do that. But it happens.
So there's no such thing as a cretinous xenophobe - they're all people in favour of EU membership pretending. You must have lived a seriously sheltered existence.
I'm not denying the existence of the cretinous xenophobe, and I trust you would not deny the existence of astro-turfers, trolls and other associated pond life.
I take your point BUT as you also know Boris and Gove were the faces of the Leave Campaign so what they do now is important. They have a responsibility to the country. I hope and imagine they are working with Cameron and Osborne to make sure tomorrow they present as united a front as possible, and give us more details about the future.
Its a much bigger clusterf*ck than that.
Suppose what you (and I) hope is happening, is actually happening, Dave, George, Boris and Mike are sitting somewhere quite beavering away on a plan. They annouce on Monday they they plan to do X, Y and Z and prepared to compromise with the EU on A, B and C in order to get D, E and F.
Then in three months time we get a new PM and new cabinet, who decide that actually they dont like any of what has been proposed.
Again i agree but as much as anything it's a matter of public perception. Something needs to stop the ridiculous levels of hysteria and we can't wait 3 months till we know who the next pm and chancellor are. So step forward Gove and Boris
Dave will have to carry out a significant reshuffle in the next few days. Has there been any word on this?
I don't think there will be many changes (as Dave doesn't want to ask questions he can't answer). But Osborne and Gove are the obvious problem people, for opposite reasons.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
I agree though once the genie is out of the bottle who knows where it will end, I think there is now a strong chance Trump wins the US Presidency and Le Pen the French Presidency if a domino effect occurs
I can maybe understand Cameron keeping a low profile, for a couple of days, he must be in shock. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be on the TV 24/7, reassuring the markets, offering alternatives, yet zip.
Dereliction of duty.
Sean, I think you are being a bit unrealistic to expect any of the remainers who have suffered the dog's abuse from Brexiters over recent weeks to lift a finger to help them out.
What the country actually needs is Johnson, Gove, Farage etc to be out there trying to reassure people that they have made the right choice - for better or worse that is the future. Unfortunately they haven't a Scooby Doo about what to do next. Don't expect Osborn to save their bacon, it's Brexit's show now
Uh.
THEY'RE NOT THE CHANCELLOR.
They have no basis to be reassuring anybody, because they can't DO ANYTHING.
Do you really think that having 'taken abuse' from Brexiters is some sort of excuse for not doing your job? (Forget helping Brexiters out - the country isn't stupid). Government by tantrum, is this what we're reduced to?
Keep on spouting this bollocks, and every time someone will bat it back as the utter stupidity we all know it to be.
OK, so having told us for weeks that he believes Brexit will be an economic disaster for the UK how exactly do you propose that Osborne now reassures people? Come out and say I was only joking ? Seriously what would you expect him to say that doesn't totally contradict everything he has said over the last couple of months?
I appreciate that technically Johnson et al can't do anything. However what the electorate might just be expecting is for them to be on our TV screens telling us what they want to happen next -with all due respect they don't want to hear from Osborne they want to hear from the people who have set us on this course of action
Snipping posts again - nasty habit. More eloquent than usual though, they must surely reward you with your own chair soon?
By the way, I think you missed my question earlier, so here it is again:
If Vote Leave were to provide a prospectus for the next three months actions on the EU and associated issues to Cameron and Osborne, should they follow it?
He is enamored with calling this the end the death ect ect of Corbyn.
I can't actually understand how he believes all this when Corbyn is standing on such solid ground and his enemies on such flimsy ground.
The battlefield (europe) could not have been more favourable for Corbyn (except foreign policy), especially after the Labour MP's have been proven so out of touch on the issue.
And don't forget the lingering animosity towards the MP's from Labour, the main reason why Corbyn was elected was because the Labour party hates it's own MP's. The view is that the MP's are some kind of out of touch aristocrats who need the chop, and their behaviour proves it.
In what way is Corbyn standing on solid ground? His only 'strength' was his comprehensive victory last year but views might well have changed among members, supporters and unions since then. People have seen him in action and while he may be many things, he ain't a leader.
More pertinently, a leader *has* to command at least the passive support of his or her MPs. Corbyn quite clearly no longer does. It's certainly ironic that after so many issues where Corbyn's been out of touch, the one that the MPs finally revolt over is one where the leader's closer to the voters than they are - but it's also beside the point. The pertinent fact is that they are acting, not why.
Corbyn may or may not survive the day. Quite probably he will, given that no-one can force him out at the moment and he will only go if he chooses to. The next hurdle is Tuesday. If he hasn't resigned by then, he will be no confidenced. Today's resignations are the equivalent of the first vote in the 1990 Tory leadership election. Even loyal MPs will know that Corbyn is so damaged that he can't credibly carry on even if they would have wanted him to (obviously, not all but enough to keep the tide flowing heavily against him). How does he carry on after that? Every interviewer and every other political party will bring it up at every opportunity.
Whether or not the MPs who resigned and those who supported their actions are punished by the CLPs is for another day. The deeds are done and cannot be undone.
The rulings of the ECHR are enforced by the ECJ, so by being in the EU we have to do what the ECHR wants, outside the EU we can chose to ignore it with no real comeback.
No they are not. There was an attempt up until the middle/end of last year to align the ECHR and the ECJ which would have allowed the ECJ to enforce ECHR rulings (basically it involved making the EU a signatory to the EConHR) but it failed.
The ECJ enforces a separate Charter of Fundamental Rights.
Enforcement of ECHR rulings is done by the courts of the individual nations.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Sean, certainly disgusting behaviour that must be stamped out. Equally disgusting, however, is some of the shit I've seen on Facebook. One friend of mine was happily advocating banning uneducated (rather than stupid) people from voting.
I've seen innumerable examples of tweets/comments from people witnessing unpleasantness to immigrants and frankly I'm ashamed.
It appears many leavers thought they were voting for deportation - who'd have thought that would happen after the positive upbeat economically focused campaign waged by leave?
I think the silence from the Government and the key Leavers is becoming deafening. If they don't come out with some kind of plan tomorrow there will be panic.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
I agree though once the genie is out of the bottle who knows where it will end, I think there is now a strong chance Trump wins the US Presidency and Le Pen the French Presidency now if a domino effect occurs
Hopefully our influence is not that great in the US, to be honest I doubt that it is. The French will just shrug at the strange antics of 'les rosbifs'.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
I agree though once the genie is out of the bottle who knows where it will end, I think there is now a strong chance Trump wins the US Presidency and Le Pen the French Presidency now if a domino effect occurs
Podemos want to rip up the Treaty of Lisbon and they are a potential winner of the Spanish election. PP are still most likely to win but the polls have Podemos close enough to win it.
The rulings of the ECHR are enforced by the ECJ, so by being in the EU we have to do what the ECHR wants, outside the EU we can chose to ignore it with no real comeback.
No they are not. There was an attempt up until the middle/end of last year to align the ECHR and the ECJ which would have allowed the ECJ to enforce ECHR rulings (basically it involved making the EU a signatory to the EConHR) but it failed.
The ECJ enforces a separate Charter of Fundamental Rights.
Enforcement of ECHR rulings is done by the courts of the individual nations.
The ECJ will eventually subsume the ECHR - it has such a centralising predisposition. Or at least, before Britain left.
Snipping posts again - nasty habit. More eloquent than usual though, they must surely reward you with your own chair soon?
By the way, I think you missed my question earlier, so here it is again:
If Vote Leave were to provide a prospectus for the next three months actions on the EU and associated issues to Cameron and Osborne, should they follow it?
Simple yes or no - I'm sure you can manage that.
Vote Leave Ltd is a private company with no democratic mandate. Unlike Russia, the UK is not run by companies
I wonder what he's suggesting? A coup? The Brexiteers cant 'step up' because Cameron is PM and thus in charge. He is the one who needs to 'step up.' We all know that, so why is anyone pretending otherwise?
As a previous admirer of Cameron's I'm amazed that his resignation is being seen as an honourable thing when a large part of the responsibility for this situation belongs to him. He called a referendum as a 'democratic exercise' to put two alternatives to the people. Yet now the people have chosen the alternative he did not want, it emerges that there was only ever one acceptable answer to the government and to Cameron's government the alternative was never genuine.
In his head it never was a democratic exercise, it was the people being put through a pantomime of democracy to produce the result they were told to produce, which Cameron could then claim was the genuine democratic choice of the British people to stay in the EU and shut up about it. We were meant to be a rubber stamp.
If there was no alternative plan in place for Brexit, if it was the impossible and lethal alternative Cameron and remainers are claiming, why did he ever present it to the British people as an alternative? The arrogance and irresponsibility of his behaviour is staggering -- because the people have not voted as they were told, he stomps off, leaving the country rudderless in a situation he enabled, just when stability is crucially needed - because the people chose an option HE offered them.
I appreciate that for rabid remainers it all very amusing to watch, because all many people seem to want is for an independent Britain to crash and burn asap to prove they were right but Cameron's irresponsibility as the man at the helm who has let go of the wheel in pique while no one else is in any position to steer the ship -- that cannot be blamed on Brexit.
I agree with SeanT. If BoJo could do what Tsipras failed to do and use the referendum as a gambit to go to Brussels and force a new deal then he could yet emerge as a hero.
But that depends on him finding a way to stop Brexit from happening.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Sean, certainly disgusting behaviour that must be stamped out. Equally disgusting, however, is some of the shit I've seen on Facebook. One friend of mine was happily advocating banning uneducated (rather than stupid) people from voting.
I've seen innumerable examples of tweets/comments from people witnessing unpleasantness to immigrants and frankly I'm ashamed.
It appears many leavers thought they were voting for deportation - who'd have thought that would happen after the positive upbeat economically focused campaign waged by leave?
Have you witnessed any of it yourself first hand? If not, I would take it with a pinch of salt.
Silly, you could equally do a yellow version. It only required a 1.9% swing to be 50:50 - and Leave won, just.
Yes you could. The BBC produced two maps, a 'degree of Remain' and a 'degree of Leave'. The degree of Leave one is shades of yellow. The colour (it seems to be confusing a lot of people on PB today) is immaterial. Fraser is merely indicating that a more nuanced map is a better way of looking at things than the 'blue vs. yellow' rubbish we've seen parroted on social media, when in actuality, the Highlands was almost bang on 50/50, Moray, Falkirk, Aberdeenshire etc., were all over 40% leave, Northern Ireland was 44% leave, defying all predictions, etc. etc.
'The country I live in voted 2:1 Remain and I just don't want to admit it' alert.
If you're trying to stir up anti-English sentiment, quite useful.
Ah, a quick break from 'absolutely no xenephobic, Brexit-induced racism to see here' to return to that old, comforting favourite, anti-Englishness.
Please don't be cross just because you didn't do your research and have been made to look like an utter chump. Just learn from it.
I think the silence from the Government and the key Leavers is becoming deafening. If they don't come out with some kind of plan tomorrow there will be panic.
I'm assuming/hoping everything will crank back into action tomorrow.
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Sean, certainly disgusting behaviour that must be stamped out. Equally disgusting, however, is some of the shit I've seen on Facebook. One friend of mine was happily advocating banning uneducated (rather than stupid) people from voting.
I've seen innumerable examples of tweets/comments from people witnessing unpleasantness to immigrants and frankly I'm ashamed.
It appears many leavers thought they were voting for deportation - who'd have thought that would happen after the positive upbeat economically focused campaign waged by leave?
That is fair enough - as long as Remain own all incidents of racism prior to the status quo changing last Thursday. Deal?
I still think LEAVE was the right choice in a hideous, binary decision that could and should have been avoided, but only a simpleton would claim it's all going swimmingly so far. LEAVE have said some extraordinary things.
Hopefully a passing phase of idiocy. But still. Hmpft.
Highly probably done by Remainers. We live in the age of the democratisation of the false flag. I've seen members of forums and posters in news threads join under aliases specifically to make 'a side' look awful. Horrid practise. I think I'd feel utterly empty inside if I were to do that. But it happens.
So there's no such thing as a cretinous xenophobe - they're all people in favour of EU membership pretending. You must have lived a seriously sheltered existence.
I'm not denying the existence of the cretinous xenophobe, and I trust you would not deny the existence of astro-turfers, trolls and other associated pond life.
I'm going to put your 'Highly probably done by Remainers' remark down as 'unfortunate' and leave it at that.
He is enamored with calling this the end the death ect ect of Corbyn.
I can't actually understand how he believes all this when Corbyn is standing on such solid ground and his enemies on such flimsy ground.
The battlefield (europe) could not have been more favourable for Corbyn (except foreign policy), especially after the Labour MP's have been proven so out of touch on the issue.
And don't forget the lingering animosity towards the MP's from Labour, the main reason why Corbyn was elected was because the Labour party hates it's own MP's. The view is that the MP's are some kind of out of touch aristocrats who need the chop, and their behaviour proves it.
In what way is Corbyn standing on solid ground? His only 'strength' was his comprehensive victory last year but views might well have changed among members, supporters and unions since then. People have seen him in action and while he may be many things, he ain't a leader.
More pertinently, a leader *has* to command at least the passive support of his or her MPs. Corbyn quite clearly no longer does. It's certainly ironic that after so many issues where Corbyn's been out of touch, the one that the MPs finally revolt over is one where the leader's closer to the voters than they are - but it's also beside the point. The pertinent fact is that they are acting, not why.
Corbyn may or may not survive the day. Quite probably he will, given that no-one can force him out at the moment and he will only go if he chooses to. The next hurdle is Tuesday. If he hasn't resigned by then, he will be no confidenced. Today's resignations are the equivalent of the first vote in the 1990 Tory leadership election. Even loyal MPs will know that Corbyn is so damaged that he can't credibly carry on even if they would have wanted him to (obviously, not all but enough to keep the tide flowing heavily against him). How does he carry on after that? Every interviewer and every other political party will bring it up at every opportunity.
Whether or not the MPs who resigned and those who supported their actions are punished by the CLPs is for another day. The deeds are done and cannot be undone.
They are acting now because the next GE is suddenly potentially much closer.
Comments
All these places must be surprised to learn they didn't vote over 70% Leave.
If Labour split we may yet see the formation of the "Liberal Democrats Democrats" in 10 years time.
PS - And thanks for the spreadsheet.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/live-blog-jeremy-corbyn-hit-shadow-cabinet-revolt
1922 need to tell Cameron to sack Osborne and make May Chancellor.
May needs to make lots of reassuring noises to sooth the markets.
May needs to get rid of Carney and bring Mervyn back for six months.
HMQ needs to summon Cameron to the Palace and find out whether he still commands a majority of House of Commons.
The Tories leadership election needs to be started with a one month deadline for the result (3, 4, 5 month election is a non starter in the circumstances)
Cameron should step down as Con leader with an interim leader taking over.
Boris, Gove and Gisela need to outline exactly what the Brexit plan is and what they are going to do.
The PLP should all go home and have a lie down on a darkened room.
Anything else?
"Dave should come out and say, 'Look, it's been several days now. If I don't hear anything from Leave by close of play this evening then the vote is null and void.' That should hurry them up!"
Give it another couple of days, you'll feel better then.
The referendum was a binary vote, not a pick and mix one. Do we stay or do we go? We had an answer. Now all it requires is for DC to steer us through to a Tory cat-fight and then hand over responsibility for running the country to whoever takes over as leader. But you know that already, don't you?
There are knee-jerks all around.
@guardianopinion: Jeremy Corbyn has made his point. Now it’s time for Labour to move on | Zoe Williams https://t.co/PqOQMxz7PZ
Are you mad?! Carney has the confidence of the markets.
Monarch butterflies migrate from Mexico to Canada - and back again.
We have a monarch...
Suppose what you (and I) hope is happening, is actually happening, Dave, George, Boris and Mike are sitting somewhere quite beavering away on a plan. They annouce on Monday they they plan to do X, Y and Z and prepared to compromise with the EU on A, B and C in order to get D, E and F.
Then in three months time we get a new PM and new cabinet, who decide that actually they dont like any of what has been proposed.
What's the appropriate phrase here? Oh, yes...
Fuck off. Please. Just fuck off.
One wonders why people from other countries are allowed to sign the petition in the first place.
I understand Farage committed to fight on, but I hadn't seen him demanding a re-run. The two things are very different.
"Two Labour parties by the end of the week"
https://youtu.be/Dg6NmHZoCTM
Their first policy could be bringing back old money!
Let's cut out the "all racists are leavers" and "false flag" stuff now, thanks. The country is in enough trouble.
Should Dave decide to have a re-shuffle in the near future (perhaps tomorrow even?), this could prove to be of major proportions, especially if Osborne wants out, Greening may also go ahead of the expected imminent "Yes" decision as regards the new Heathrow Runway, I see Hammond being demoted or removed, plus of course there's Boris to be accommodated.
What with all the goings on in the Labour Party, the fun and games aren't over yet, not by a long chalk.
Re Spanish election today - anyone think Brexit may significantly affect the result?
What's the appropriate phrase here? Oh, yes...
I can see you're rattled.
I think that falls into the territory of reasonable compromise even if it isn't the absolute letter of what people voted for.
That could really put the cat amongst the pigeons. The world is drifting away from established elites.
On the Remain camp I think they don't have a natural leader and they know there is no appetite for a Remainer for leader anyway.
Not really, but you guys need to get a grip.
"What is your position on immigration?"
Unless he decided to resign multiple times in the hope that someone will notice.
Juncker now saying EU must push for full Union including currency, all other currencies must now go.
Doubles or quits by the looks of it
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/eu-kommissionspraesident-juncker-will-brexit-fuer-euro-vollendung-nutzen-14309932.html
From the sick man of Europe to the thick man of Europe.
I appreciate that technically Johnson et al can't do anything. However what the electorate might just be expecting is for them to be on our TV screens telling us what they want to happen next -with all due respect they don't want to hear from Osborne they want to hear from the people who have set us on this course of action
By the way, I think you missed my question earlier, so here it is again:
If Vote Leave were to provide a prospectus for the next three months actions on the EU and associated issues to Cameron and Osborne, should they follow it?
Simple yes or no - I'm sure you can manage that.
More pertinently, a leader *has* to command at least the passive support of his or her MPs. Corbyn quite clearly no longer does. It's certainly ironic that after so many issues where Corbyn's been out of touch, the one that the MPs finally revolt over is one where the leader's closer to the voters than they are - but it's also beside the point. The pertinent fact is that they are acting, not why.
Corbyn may or may not survive the day. Quite probably he will, given that no-one can force him out at the moment and he will only go if he chooses to. The next hurdle is Tuesday. If he hasn't resigned by then, he will be no confidenced. Today's resignations are the equivalent of the first vote in the 1990 Tory leadership election. Even loyal MPs will know that Corbyn is so damaged that he can't credibly carry on even if they would have wanted him to (obviously, not all but enough to keep the tide flowing heavily against him). How does he carry on after that? Every interviewer and every other political party will bring it up at every opportunity.
Whether or not the MPs who resigned and those who supported their actions are punished by the CLPs is for another day. The deeds are done and cannot be undone.
The ECJ enforces a separate Charter of Fundamental Rights.
Enforcement of ECHR rulings is done by the courts of the individual nations.
It appears many leavers thought they were voting for deportation - who'd have thought that would happen after the positive upbeat economically focused campaign waged by leave?
Unlike Russia, the UK is not run by companies
As a previous admirer of Cameron's I'm amazed that his resignation is being seen as an honourable thing when a large part of the responsibility for this situation belongs to him. He called a referendum as a 'democratic exercise' to put two alternatives to the people. Yet now the people have chosen the alternative he did not want, it emerges that there was only ever one acceptable answer to the government and to Cameron's government the alternative was never genuine.
In his head it never was a democratic exercise, it was the people being put through a pantomime of democracy to produce the result they were told to produce, which Cameron could then claim was the genuine democratic choice of the British people to stay in the EU and shut up about it. We were meant to be a rubber stamp.
If there was no alternative plan in place for Brexit, if it was the impossible and lethal alternative Cameron and remainers are claiming, why did he ever present it to the British people as an alternative? The arrogance and irresponsibility of his behaviour is staggering -- because the people have not voted as they were told, he stomps off, leaving the country rudderless in a situation he enabled, just when stability is crucially needed - because the people chose an option HE offered them.
I appreciate that for rabid remainers it all very amusing to watch, because all many people seem to want is for an independent Britain to crash and burn asap to prove they were right but Cameron's irresponsibility as the man at the helm who has let go of the wheel in pique while no one else is in any position to steer the ship -- that cannot be blamed on Brexit.
But that depends on him finding a way to stop Brexit from happening.
He's mad and desperate. A dangerous combination.
In other news: A scenic railway at a theme park in Scotland has derailed.
Posting things like that upsets people here.