That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
They are telling us when to appoint a new PM?
The BBC report said the feeling there is that Cameron should own this and activate article 50 straight away. If not, he should go and the next leader should do this in the next few days. We have seen in other countries they have no issues with installing a new leader in an extremely short timeframe, they want the same to happen with us.
Unfortunately for them, they have no way of achieving this.
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
They are telling us when to appoint a new PM?
The BBC report said the feeling there is that Cameron should own this and activate article 50 straight away. If not, he should go and the next leader should do this in the next few days. We have seen in other countries they have no issues with installing a new leader in an extremely short timeframe, they want the same to happen with us.
They are probably surprised that the UK wants to stay in the European Union after the referendum.
We can start talks today if they want, but we will activate article 50 when we choose to.
Spot on. If they want to make it quick then they need to make a good offer.
Yeah exactly.
They actually should call Cameron's bluff, make him an extremely good offer and see what happens.
That'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
But seriously, there's no way for them to force the government to make the article 50 declaration, as I understand it, so what other pressure will they bring to bear to try to get us to do so more quickly? It's a dick move to keep them waiting, but we need time to organise. But they will be desperate not to make any sort of offers of what a post-brexit settlement would look like in advance, as it would reveal their hand.
So it's an impasse. We aren't ready to make the declaration, they aren't prepared to act until we do (the other fear being they make too good an offer and, against all expectation, we don't declare if we can get some of that and remain in - us staying in would be even worse for them at this stage, unless it's a capitulation, since it would open the door for every country to vote out and then see what they can get).
We now see what catastrophic incompetence Cameron's 'renegotiation' was.
In particular telling the world that he wouldn't walk away without a 'deal'.
Couple of observations. Firstly, the polling industry is in tatters. Astrologers and fortune tellers at fairgrounds have more credibility than pollsters at the moment (and they're probably more accurate). Secondly, the reaction of the losing side has been a real eye opener. The value of democracy seems to only be worth adhering to if the result you wish for is delivered. It would not surprise me in the least if they launch a spurious legal challenge, because they will not let this go. The Remainers have shamed themselves in my opinion.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Because the result was close? Because many of the people who voted to leave will have changed their minds in a year or two thanks to the uncertainty and crap things happening.
Again, do you really think it's a good idea for Labour to base its strategy on "uniting Remain voters"?
Outside of London, some of Remain's strongest areas were in Berkshire, Surrey and Oxfordshire. These are not people even SLIGHTLY left-inclined, even Blair wasn't centrist enough for them - they are all very wealthy people who were concerned about protecting their incomes. They are not voting Labour no matter what.
Yes indeed. The only party that might be able to pitch enthusiastically to remain/get back in are the LDs. And that might not work either, many of their voters went for Leave too (but they have more opportunity to try to increase with new members). But Labour? They'd be almost as split as the Tories if they tried it.
Remain got 48% here in Wiltshire. But decision having been made and in the absence of total economic collapse (Mad Max style), it's parliamentary vote would be the same as it always is, as it would be in most places across the south, while going hard on a unite the remain vote would be a vote loser in places it would actually hurt Labour.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
He is incapable of leadership and members should be demanding he stand down so they can choose someone else. Their tolerance of his abject uselessness is an unforgiveable betrayal of Labour's working class voters.
Who does back Corbyn in Labour now? London Labour hate him now, that's a big powerbase he's lost. A leadership election would be a hell of a lot closer surely, especially if anti-Corbyn was focussed around one candidate.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Labour urgently need a leader capable of holding the govt to account and providing a viable alternative.
Sure -- but I don't think any politician who's judgement was so badly askew as to be enthusiastically campaigning for Remain will be capable of providing a viable alternative. If they read the public mood so catastrophically wrong on the EU, they will surely read the mood wrongly again on all other issues if they got to be leader.
They went out and campaigned for Labour party policy. If they hadn't the majority for Leave may have been far bigger. If Corbyn had put the full weight of the Labour party machine behind Remain from the start Remain may have won.
Yes, it was Labour Party policy on their insistence, because they thought being pro-EU meant they would be "in the centre ground" and in line with public opinion -- and the result shows how catastrophically wrong they were. If they read the public mood so badly on this issue, why would they read it any better on other issues?
Sturgeon is going to go for it. These are amazing times. The UK is coming to an end.
I predicted she would pounce immediately - though you didn't have to be Nostradamus for that one. Yes, the UK is coming to an end, though it will be inevitably shrugged off as 'a price worth paying'.
It's sad, but inevitable. I will genuinely mourn the passing of the UK and Scotland becoming a foreign country, but England has spoken and in the end I am English. For good or ill, this is the place I am bound too. I just wish I agreed with more of my countrymen!
Recent days have shown that the vital things that sustain a nation are all about certainty and stability. When you take a sledgehammer to that, as we've just done, there's not much left.
Couple of observations. Firstly, the polling industry is in tatters. Astrologers and fortune tellers at fairgrounds have more credibility than pollsters at the moment (and they're probably more accurate). Secondly, the reaction of the losing side has been a real eye opener. The value of democracy seems to only be worth adhering to if the result you wish for is delivered. It would not surprise me in the least if they launch a spurious legal challenge, because they will not let this go. The Remainers have shamed themselves in my opinion.
ICM had it spot on from the week before.
Maybe the moral of the story is that pollsters should stop polling with around a week to go.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
For God's sake - find someone else then. The members choose. Do they really choose Corbyn to speak for Labour as this country goes through a period of unprecedented upheaval? Is he really the best the party can do?
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
Couple of observations. Firstly, the polling industry is in tatters. Astrologers and fortune tellers at fairgrounds have more credibility than pollsters at the moment (and they're probably more accurate). Secondly, the reaction of the losing side has been a real eye opener. The value of democracy seems to only be worth adhering to if the result you wish for is delivered. It would not surprise me in the least if they launch a spurious legal challenge, because they will not let this go. The Remainers have shamed themselves in my opinion.
ICM had it spot on from the week before.
Maybe the moral of the story is that pollsters should stop polling with around a week to go.
It's perfect. Any errors in the future could then be blamed on changes in the intervening week!
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
They are telling us when to appoint a new PM?
The BBC report said the feeling there is that Cameron should own this and activate article 50 straight away. If not, he should go and the next leader should do this in the next few days. We have seen in other countries they have no issues with installing a new leader in an extremely short timeframe, they want the same to happen with us.
A new leader is being elected at the Tory party's earliest convenience!
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
It was the telephone polling sector that had an absolute nightmare.Appalling at picking up overall right wing opinion - just as they had been last May.
Populus was spectacularly dreadful on the internet.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
Spot on. Are they seriously going to stick with a bloke who personifies everything about Labour that is repellant to working class and floating voters.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
By the way, did you vote Remain in the end - weren't you undecided earlier in the week, influenced by Casino?
Couple of observations. Firstly, the polling industry is in tatters. Astrologers and fortune tellers at fairgrounds have more credibility than pollsters at the moment (and they're probably more accurate). Secondly, the reaction of the losing side has been a real eye opener. The value of democracy seems to only be worth adhering to if the result you wish for is delivered. It would not surprise me in the least if they launch a spurious legal challenge, because they will not let this go. The Remainers have shamed themselves in my opinion.
That's nonsense, Jason. As has been pointed out, Farage was calling before the vote for a second referendum if we got a result for Remain on the same proportion as Leave got here. People in a close result, some few (who knows how many, it's too early for most to have a lot of regret) with buyer's remorse, will always want to try again, and there was talk of legal challenges among supporters as well for things like the government mail out.
Anyone thinking the Leave side would not have had some people doing the exact the same thing should Remain have won, is wearing heavy partisan blinkers.
And you can rest easy - if a legal challenge threw out the referendum result, Leave would win by even more next time.
Someone calling for a second referendum itself is also not inherently undemocratic - they're free to campaign for another vote. It'd just get confusing as if Remain won a second one, there'd also be no reason Leavers could not push for yet another vote.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
By the way, did you vote Remain in the end - weren't you undecided earlier in the week, influenced by Casino?
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
The public doesn't care about the term "Blairite (or in most cases, they've not even heard it) - but we saw on Thursday how well a campaign based on the Blairites' key principles goes down in the country.
I find it baffling that Labour "moderates" say they're most concerned about electability, and yet are not willing to consider the evidence of the MOST RECENT ELECTION held two days ago.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
He is incapable of leadership and members should be demanding he stand down so they can choose someone else. Their tolerance of his abject uselessness is an unforgiveable betrayal of Labour's working class voters.
Of course Corbyn is in many ways a turn-off for them, but at least he was pitching a Euro-realist message that didn't jar quite as bad with their views.
Now Labour want to replace him with someone who is "right on" pro-EU and up for open immigration.
That's going to end well...
Incidentally the Tories have similar issues, because while they do have some eurosceptics they're attitudes are still out of touch with working class Tories.
They can say what they like. Article 50 can only be invoked by the government and we can do it at our own timetable.
What do we want?
To take back control.
When do we want it?
Err..
Yes - I too would prefer a prompt exit now to minimise uncertainty - for some people this change has potentially very direct consequences. It does seem odd that people like Gove/Johnson really seem to have no idea at this point of what it is they want.
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
Yup, it's going to be a steep learning curve for these EU leaders that Britain has sovereign will and is after all a great power.
You think? All that's going to happen is months of drift and declining willingness of the EU to offer us anything beyond EEA or exclusion.
The key to successful negotiation is that you decide early on what your objectives are (which we haven't) and then enter negotiations with a show of enthusiasm (which we aren't).
I appreciate the practical problem that Cameron can't do it, and Leave doesn't collectively know what it wants in any detail. But the idea that the EU will offer us tuppence on that basis is for the birds.
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
Desperate times! Agree it got a little ridiculous at the end.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Labour urgently need a leader capable of holding the govt to account and providing a viable alternative.
Sure -- but I don't think any politician who's judgement was so badly askew as to be enthusiastically campaigning for Remain will be capable of providing a viable alternative. If they read the public mood so catastrophically wrong on the EU, they will surely read the mood wrongly again on all other issues if they got to be leader.
They went out and campaigned for Labour party policy. If they hadn't the majority for Leave may have been far bigger. If Corbyn had put the full weight of the Labour party machine behind Remain from the start Remain may have won.
Yes, it was Labour Party policy on their insistence, because they thought being pro-EU meant they would be "in the centre ground" and in line with public opinion -- and the result shows how catastrophically wrong they were. If they read the public mood so badly on this issue, why would they read it any better on other issues?
Come off it. The Labour party as a whole, the unions and the members supported EU membership. The unions and members supported Corbyn. What does this tell us about their judgement?
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
They are telling us when to appoint a new PM?
The BBC report said the feeling there is that Cameron should own this and activate article 50 straight away. If not, he should go and the next leader should do this in the next few days. We have seen in other countries they have no issues with installing a new leader in an extremely short timeframe, they want the same to happen with us.
They are probably surprised that the UK wants to stay in the European Union after the referendum.
It doesn't, but why should there be a rush to negotiation stage if there is no requirement to do so? The government need to be clear on their own position before they start them. And some nations seem to get by months without new governments after elections,
Agreed-too much has been made of the immigration issue-that said Uk is always going to be much more of a magnet than Norway and thus the movement of people will be an issue so we are going to need to address this at some stage.
Lol - I'm sure the idea of addressing the issue 'at some stage' will go down really well in Sunderland/Barnsley/........
German Chancellor Angela Merkel expressed "great regret" at the British decision, saying: "This is a blow to Europe and to the European unification process"
That's a brilliant example of "they just don't get it", though, isn't it?
Britain didn't fit into a European unification process. That wasn't what the vast bulk of the British people desired or felt comfortable - or, for those who voted on it back in the 70s, that this was what they'd signed up for. We were in a club where we didn't believe in the core aims of the club - I quite like Mark Mardell's BBC piece on this today - and where our misfitting nature was holding the rest of the EU back from the deeper integration they actually need to make some of the grander aspects of their project workable.
I think it was illiberal and undemocratic that Eurofanatics have, for decades, attempted to remold the national, cultural and political identity of the British populace. Make us all feel like good little Europeans. I actually quite liked the flag, and felt about as attached to it as to the Union Flag, and thought the EU anthem was rather good - an upbeat tune and notably free of nationalistic and nostalgic bombast. I wouldn't mind describing myself as "European" (and even post-Brexit, there's a cultural and geographic truth that I am European). No doubt if I got paid in euros, and watched the budget being announced in Brussels, and got a chance to vote directly for the President, then I'd feel a deeper attachment to the political aspects of the project too. But this is something that millions and millions of ordinary Brits didn't feel comfortable with. And plonking the EU flag on justabout anything which had a flag-like space on it, especially to emphasise the beneficence of Brussels, wasn't going to render it so.
I also think it was illiberal and undemocratic for the Euromoderates to paper over all this stuff and keep yapping away about it all being good for business and it's still at heart a trading club. "One day you'll see, just you wait, that having the euro will be good for your pocket." In many ways this was even more dishonest, and it didn't have the redeeming characteristic of a bold and noble dream at heart. I'm sure the reason the dream was avoided was because they knew the great mass of the British public didn't share in it.
(I'm not a unionist by inclination. I also think it would be terrible for shire England to attempt to dictate to Scottish people what their national identity is and where their nation should fit into the world.)
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
Agreed. But Cameron was obviously lying when he said (a) he was going to remain as PM but (b) it was up to the Leave campaign to set out the post-Brexit policy. It never made any sense and now we know just how disingenuous it was (feel free to replace disingenuous with your own choice of language!)
Do we think the newly voting 'non voters' will now have a taste for it?
Some, I would hope, but from my exhaustive poll of 2 previously non-voters, it would seem not - in their words, they would never vote for a politician (can't be trusted, all the same anyway), but this was different.
If Labour were to be openly advocate ignoring the referendum result as a position in a snap GE, then they might well choose to vote then to stop that though, I suspect.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
The public doesn't care about the term "Blairite (or in most cases, they've not even heard it) - but we saw on Thursday how well a campaign based on the Blairites' key principles goes down in the country.
I find it baffling that Labour "moderates" say they're most concerned about electability, and yet are not willing to consider the evidence of the MOST RECENT ELECTION held two days ago.
There you go again banging on about Blairites. This had nothing to do with Blairites.
All I want is an effective leader of the Labour Party capable of leading an effective opposition in difficult times and providing a viable alternative.
Agreed-too much has been made of the immigration issue-that said Uk is always going to be much more of a magnet than Norway and thus the movement of people will be an issue so we are going to need to address this at some stage.
Lol - I'm sure the idea of addressing the issue 'at some stage' will go down really well in Sunderland/Barnsley/........
Anti-immigration is being cancelled to promote a narrative of BETRAYAL in the hope that Ukip rise and destroys Labour in the North.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
He is incapable of leadership and members should be demanding he stand down so they can choose someone else. Their tolerance of his abject uselessness is an unforgiveable betrayal of Labour's working class voters.
Of course Corbyn is in many ways a turn-off for them, but at least he was pitching a Euro-realist message that didn't jar quite as bad with their views.
Now Labour want to replace him with someone who is "right on" pro-EU and up for open immigration.
That's going to end well...
Incidentally the Tories have similar issues, because while they do have some eurosceptics they're attitudes are still out of touch with working class Tories.
Labour members could demand Corbyn's resignation. They would get to choose his successor. Clearly that does not interest them. At a time of unprecedented upheaval in this country's peacetime history they believe Corbyn is the best person to speak for Labour. Whether the members like it or not that is an unforgiveable betrayal of the people the Labour party is supposed to represent.
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
Agreed. But Cameron was obviously lying when he said (a) he was going to remain as PM but (b) it was up to the Leave campaign to set out the post-Brexit policy. It never made any sense and now we know just how disingenuous it was (feel free to replace disingenuous with your own choice of language!)
No one even really called him out on it, because I think it was one of those white lies in politics - everyone knew it would happen, it was so preposterous to say otherwise, so it wasn't even worth calling out, we all just agreed to pretend that was the case.
We can start talks today if they want, but we will activate article 50 when we choose to.
Spot on. If they want to make it quick then they need to make a good offer.
Yeah exactly.
They actually should call Cameron's bluff, make him an extremely good offer and see what happens.
That'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
But seriously, there's no way for them to force the government to make the article 50 declaration, as I understand it, so what other pressure will they bring to bear to try to get us to do so more quickly? It's a dick move to keep them waiting, but we need time to organise. But they will be desperate not to make any sort of offers of what a post-brexit settlement would look like in advance, as it would reveal their hand.
So it's an impasse. We aren't ready to make the declaration, they aren't prepared to act until we do (the other fear being they make too good an offer and, against all expectation, we don't declare if we can get some of that and remain in - us staying in would be even worse for them at this stage, unless it's a capitulation, since it would open the door for every country to vote out and then see what they can get).
I have been thinking about this. The article 50 route gives the massive advantage to the EU side. Any eventual outcome will be miserable for the UK if the EU really wants it to be. Which is why the UK is not rushing to trigger it. However the only way the UK can guarantee to avoid this miserable outcome is never to leave. So the EU will have to pre negotiate the outlines of deal and make it dependent on the article 50
It's a bit like getting rid of a guest that has overstayed his welcome. "Can so and so give you a lift home? He's leaving now.It saves a walk in the rain"
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
Yup, it's going to be a steep learning curve for these EU leaders that Britain has sovereign will and is after all a great power.
You think? All that's going to happen is months of drift and declining willingness of the EU to offer us anything beyond EEA or exclusion.
The key to successful negotiation is that you decide early on what your objectives are (which we haven't) and then enter negotiations with a show of enthusiasm (which we aren't).
I appreciate the practical problem that Cameron can't do it, and Leave doesn't collectively know what it wants in any detail. But the idea that the EU will offer us tuppence on that basis is for the birds.
Quite right Nick. It's going to be a hoot when Boris finally limps back from Brussels with his 'deal'. Quite a few will immediately shout betrayal, though I suspect some of the more doughty Leavers will desperately defend its merits as it's otherwise torn to shreds.
People are talking here as if the EU is negotiating from a position of power.
They just lost their second biggest contributor and are carrying two, perhaps more, bankrupt countries. The EU leaders also know that there is growing agitation among the populations on the continent for the EU to change.
I wouldn't be feeling that comfortable if I were running the EU right now. Greece is a major crisis on the horizon.
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
Yup, it's going to be a steep learning curve for these EU leaders that Britain has sovereign will and is after all a great power.
You think? All that's going to happen is months of drift and declining willingness of the EU to offer us anything beyond EEA or exclusion.
The key to successful negotiation is that you decide early on what your objectives are (which we haven't) and then enter negotiations with a show of enthusiasm (which we aren't).
I appreciate the practical problem that Cameron can't do it, and Leave doesn't collectively know what it wants in any detail. But the idea that the EU will offer us tuppence on that basis is for the birds.
They were never going to offer us anything much, they have to play hard ball. It might not be in their best immediate interests, but make it too gentle on us leaving, others might not think it is so bad. (And as stated, it's why anyone hoping they make a new offer for us to stay in cannot happen, it would declare themselves open to being taken hostage)
So there's politicking on both sides here - we're not ready to begin, and they're not wanting to make us any kind of too decent an offer.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
The public doesn't care about the term "Blairite (or in most cases, they've not even heard it) - but we saw on Thursday how well a campaign based on the Blairites' key principles goes down in the country.
I find it baffling that Labour "moderates" say they're most concerned about electability, and yet are not willing to consider the evidence of the MOST RECENT ELECTION held two days ago.
There you go again banging on about Blairites. This had nothing to do with Blairites.
All I want is an effective leader of the Labour Party capable of leading an effective opposition in difficult times and providing a viable alternative.
Corbyn is a million miles from that.
There are clearly many within Labour who would prefer Boris in Downing Street than a Blairite, whatever that means. I don't get how a "Blairite" could be Labour leader unless members vote for him/her.
That report on BBC News just now that the EU either want Cameron to get on with article 50 now or a new PM to be appointed in the next few days. Is quite beautiful that they can't get what they want this time, unlike how they have treated so many other countries.
Yup, it's going to be a steep learning curve for these EU leaders that Britain has sovereign will and is after all a great power.
You think? All that's going to happen is months of drift and declining willingness of the EU to offer us anything beyond EEA or exclusion.
The key to successful negotiation is that you decide early on what your objectives are (which we haven't) and then enter negotiations with a show of enthusiasm (which we aren't).
I appreciate the practical problem that Cameron can't do it, and Leave doesn't collectively know what it wants in any detail. But the idea that the EU will offer us tuppence on that basis is for the birds.
Quite right Nick. It's going to be a hoot when Boris finally limps back from Brussels with his 'deal'. Quite a few will immediately shout betrayal, though I suspect some of the more doughty Leavers will desperately defend its merits as it's otherwise torn to shreds.
Project Fear becoming Stark Dawning is like Brown's transformation from Stalin to Mr Bean.
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
In the context of more important recent events I'd submit this for "Pointless Post of the Year"
Sturgeon is going to go for it. These are amazing times. The UK is coming to an end.
Big mistake. She'll destroy her party.
There's a lot of emotion going around right now, but you really think she'd lose?!
Sturgeon and co presumably don't care if the party is destroyed in the years after an exit (though they also presumably don't think that will happen), they will have gotten what they want and it'd be too late to change. As those wishing for a second referendum will find out, or any party trying to rejoin after we Leave, even if things go to crap, it will be very hard to get back in.
Sturgeon is one of the few politicians with quite lot of goodwill and political capital to spend.
Also, consider that the Nats entered politics to secure independence, and it has been a long struggle culminating in their recent successes. Is it possible to imagine a better alignment of the planets for independence ever coming round than they now have - power in Scotland, political goodwill, almost no opposition (OK Davidson on the flanks), and a great cause celebre to win round the floaters? If not now, then when?
The Scottish Tories are remarkable muted on Independence right now, other than Davidson absolutely no-one has put their head above the parapets. Even die-hard BritNats like Adam Tomkins was very muted in an interview on Friday.
Also SLab are making very pro-Indy sounds, senior figures appear to have an acceptance of Independence, some even sound like they will actively back it.
The stars are aligned.
Politically I can't imagine a better time.
Couple of things I wonder about practically. Putting aside fiscal issues, oil and currency - those are Big Questions, but I think susceptible to answers in the long run - isn't Scotland much more deeply integrated with rUK than rEU?
From a practical situation, what percentage of Scotland's trade is with (i) rUK, (ii) rEU, (iii) USA,(iv) elsewhere in the world? What are the long term trends in this, bearing in mind the global trade is generally growing much faster than intra-EU trade, and developing economies are expanding at a much greater pace than the EU (i.e. EU's share of world GDP is shrinking), and that for the very long-run view we ought to consider cutting oil exports out of the equation?
From the point of view of free movement, how many Scots move to rUK (for work/study/whatever) compared to rEU? How many Scots live in Scotland but commute to rUK for work, and how many (won't be many, but will be a few) commute to rEU?
If the question is one of "how do we retain our long-term access to our major trading partner" I wonder to what extent the best answer to that is Sindy and Scotmain.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Do you seriously believe Labour leave voters buy into Corbyn's open immigration agenda?
No I don't - but the "moderates" all want to rejoin the EU, so in practice would have an immigration policy no different to Corbyn.
As I said yesterday, atleast Corbyn offers working-class voters economic policies to appeal to them, and is a symbolic chance to "kick the Establishment". On the other hand, the Blairites would offer the same key planks as the Remain Campaign -- defending the economic status quo, mass immigration, cultural liberalism, presented by career politicians. It's not going to work.
But he doesn't. Corbyn is the personification of metropolitan remoteness. Corbynites obsess about Blairites. No one else cares. The world has moved on. Labour needs to fight to get a hearing.
The public doesn't care about the term "Blairite (or in most cases, they've not even heard it) - but we saw on Thursday how well a campaign based on the Blairites' key principles goes down in the country.
I find it baffling that Labour "moderates" say they're most concerned about electability, and yet are not willing to consider the evidence of the MOST RECENT ELECTION held two days ago.
There you go again banging on about Blairites. This had nothing to do with Blairites.
All I want is an effective leader of the Labour Party capable of leading an effective opposition in difficult times and providing a viable alternative.
Corbyn is a million miles from that.
There are clearly many within Labour who would prefer Boris in Downing Street than a Blairite, whatever that means. I don't get how a "Blairite" could be Labour leader unless members vote for him/her.
Blairite is a meaningless term of abuse. Labour needs a leader like John Smith IMO. Solid as a rock, an obvious viable Pm, fiercely bright and a good communicator.
People are talking here as if the EU is negotiating from a position of power.
They just lost their second biggest contributor and are carrying two, perhaps more, bankrupt countries. The EU leaders also know that there is growing agitation among the populations on the continent for the EU to change.
I wouldn't be feeling that comfortable if I were running the EU right now. Greece is a major crisis on the horizon.
There was talk yesterday that Germany and France are preparing plans for a more flexible approach to Europe, which made me mad, that so soon they were able to bring that together. Many current Leavers could have gone with Remain if they believed the EU could be flexible, but they were quite clear Cameron's deal, which we regarded as insufficient, was it and we should jolly well grateful we got that much.
The dream of the EU was always nice. It is frustrating it might be able to prevent further breakups by becoming more flexible, only because we, the ones who wanted more flexibility, have left. The truth is they didn't think they had to change, so they didn't. Now, maybe they do. Too late for us, but maybe not others.
People are talking here as if the EU is negotiating from a position of power.
They just lost their second biggest contributor and are carrying two, perhaps more, bankrupt countries. The EU leaders also know that there is growing agitation among the populations on the continent for the EU to change.
I wouldn't be feeling that comfortable if I were running the EU right now. Greece is a major crisis on the horizon.
Indeed.
We've been the "runt of the litter" for the EU for so long that people can't get out of that mindset it seems. The voters have told us we've got to start asserting ourselves but it seems the politicians haven't yet caught up.
Agreed-too much has been made of the immigration issue-that said Uk is always going to be much more of a magnet than Norway and thus the movement of people will be an issue so we are going to need to address this at some stage.
Lol - I'm sure the idea of addressing the issue 'at some stage' will go down really well in Sunderland/Barnsley/........
For purely aesthetic reasons immigration is the one thing that could have tempted me to Leave: too much of our glorious countryside is being concreted over, and too many awful dwellings are being crammed into town centres for my liking. But it's now clear that Leave have shamelessly kicked this issue into the long crass. I feel betrayed.
But amazingly even after Sunderland had declared and credible reports were coming in from round the country, I was still able to put another £200 on at 4/1 at 1.13am. That was ridiculous and quite remarkable poor performance by the bookies.
To assume that the bookies lost because the prices were wrong - as they undoubtedly were - is a massive category error.
People are talking here as if the EU is negotiating from a position of power.
They just lost their second biggest contributor and are carrying two, perhaps more, bankrupt countries. The EU leaders also know that there is growing agitation among the populations on the continent for the EU to change.
I wouldn't be feeling that comfortable if I were running the EU right now. Greece is a major crisis on the horizon.
I just heard a couple of European journalists on R5L and their view was that the EU will talk hard now but reach a deal that's generally OK for everyone. They thought that pragmatism would trump anger - very British really.
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
In the context of more important recent events I'd submit this for "Pointless Post of the Year"
I suggest that that implies rather a lot about you. Never mind - I have no doubt that Dr Goebbels would have been proud of both of them!
I can understand the Remains being upset. They did after all repeat every scare story and attack line in slavish fashion despite the utter absurdity of most of it, over the course of months, only to endure ignominious defeat.
But have ANY of them, NorthWales aside, mentioned accepting the result getting on with it, making Britain a success? Nope. They're either still indulging in bitter recrimination, trying to find some comfort in the economic travails of the UK, or fantasising about constitutional chaos. Its very telling. These are the people that were telling us they were just as patriotic as Leavers and had Britain's interests at heart. I'm sure irl they are lovely people, kind to dogs etc., but politically they're simply repulsive.
As a kid in the 'Seventies it was all 'Harp', 'Colt' and 'Hoffmeister'. My old-man used to drink Carlsberg-SB'. I tried it and found the taste disgusting. [Gold-Label is nice though!]
Tried 'Tennants', 'Stella' and the rest. Got peeved-off and moved to Guinness (true-brew). Now into Cider and Craft Ales.
:ho-hum:'
I have drunk them all , Stella is ok today as an everyday lager, anything below the 5% mark is pretty tasteless. I do prefer craft beer or good Cider myself nowadays, would not drink cheap lager at all ( well unless it was that or nothing ).
Amid talk about other countries potentially leaving the EU - I can understand arguments about the likes of Sweden and Denmark, but I can't see how Eurozone countries can seriously contemplate this without readopting their own currencies? So very different decision for them, whatever the polling figures.
It was an amazing night. I remember posting when the Newcastle came in that Leave had won. It just seemed to be obvious but the market took hours and hours not helped by a media who seemed totally incapable of recognising what was right in their face.
We are very poorly served by our media. I don't think Gove is completely right about experts but the discussion on here was once again on such a different level it was like we were watching a different event.
Perhaps we will now finally hear no more of the rubbish about the betting markets being a good guide to the probabilities of political events.
And there have to be very serious questions asked about the behaviour of the pollsters. One in particular.
Does Andrew Cooper still lurk around here? He must be feeling great.
Lord Cooper, a co-founder of the Populus polling company and the architect of the PM’s policy on gay marriage, called to say he thought the margin of victory for Remain would be 60/40. A few hours later, Populus published its final poll of the campaign – giving Remain a commanding ten-point lead.
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
Conspiracy theory number 1 - they want to delay until October to desperately hope something really vital happens which means they can ask to vote again.
The true answer (so the one you won't get from any politician) is that no-one knows. The economics need unraveled and it is not always clear how that will happen.
What we know it isn't, is the £15bn nonsense figure from the likes of Kevin Hague which consider that all costs currently borne by Scotland would exist for an independent Scotland. It would also matter what government Scotland voted for.
The reality is that it would likely be between £4bn and £10bn. The EU cap of 3.5% would require a max deficit of roughly £9bn so it is both achievable for Scotland and would not require tax rises or spending cuts.
All these figures are with current negligible oil revenues.
I can understand the Remains being upset. They did after all repeat every scare story and attack line in slavish fashion despite the utter absurdity of most of it, over the course of months, only to endure ignominious defeat.
But have ANY of them, NorthWales aside, mentioned accepting the result getting on with it, making Britain a success? Nope. They're either still indulging in bitter recrimination, trying to find some comfort in the economic travails of the UK, or fantasising about constitutional chaos. Its very telling. These are the people that were telling us they were just as patriotic as Leavers and had Britain's interests at heart. I'm sure irl they are lovely people, kind to dogs etc., but politically they're simply repulsive.
Actually as a Remainer I posted earlier that we need to accept the result. Still angry about it. And still think it is a monumental mistake. But there you go, need to make best of it now and negotiate something decent out of it.
Amid talk about other countries potentially leaving the EU - I can understand arguments about the likes of Sweden and Denmark, but I can't see how Eurozone countries can seriously contemplate this without readopting their own currencies? So very different decision for them, whatever the polling figures.
In France Mme Le Pen I believe specifies leaving the Euro, rather than the EU.
I see the Labour "moderates" are still throwing their toys out of the pram.
I'm still yet to hear why, in the aftermath of the country voting to leave the EU, it's a good idea to go for a more Euro-enthusiast leader.
Because the result was close? Because many of the people who voted to leave will have changed their minds in a year or two thanks to the uncertainty and crap things happening.
Again, do you really think it's a good idea for Labour to base its strategy on "uniting Remain voters"?
Outside of London, some of Remain's strongest areas were in Berkshire, Surrey and Oxfordshire. These are not people even SLIGHTLY left-inclined, even Blair wasn't centrist enough for them - they are all very wealthy people who were concerned about protecting their incomes from economic turmoil. They are not voting Labour no matter what.
This idea of Labour being the "party of Remain" really is a recipe for Scottish Labour on steroids.
The opportunity for the LibDems is that, in England, they are the only potential 'party of Remain' with the ability (more theoretical than actual right now) to appeal to the type of areas that lean to remain (a striking number of which have had LibDem MPs or Councillors in the past). I understand some LibDem referendum campaigners report getting a surprisingly warm welcome from what they would call soft Tory voters, and it is hard to see such voters looking at their own party right now with anything other than concern. As Parris says in the Times, the Tories have to own the Euref result now.
But amazingly even after Sunderland had declared and credible reports were coming in from round the country, I was still able to put another £200 on at 4/1 at 1.13am. That was ridiculous and quite remarkable poor performance by the bookies.
To assume that the bookies lost because the prices were wrong - as they undoubtedly were - is a massive category error.
Presumably they made a fortune as there were plenty of tales of people stick £35K on Remain in the days running up to the vote.
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
I think it's shameful Cameron, Osborne, May etc have all gone to ground.
I suspect things will start cranking up on Monday. Cameron is clearly a broken man so I can understand him spending the weekend with a bottle of Scotch and a duvet.
Mrs May... Well, one imagines she's spending her weekend taking "sounding's"
As for Osborne... He should have shown his face by now... But the fact he's gone into hiding doesn't surprise me in the slightest given what we know about the character. Have a feeling the 1922 will tell Cameron he's got to fire Osborne and appoint a new Chancellor on Monday.
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
Conspiracy theory number 1 - they want to delay until October to desperately hope something really vital happens which means they can ask to vote again.
Agreed-too much has been made of the immigration issue-that said Uk is always going to be much more of a magnet than Norway and thus the movement of people will be an issue so we are going to need to address this at some stage.
Lol - I'm sure the idea of addressing the issue 'at some stage' will go down really well in Sunderland/Barnsley/........
For purely aesthetic reasons immigration is the one thing that could have tempted me to Leave: too much of our glorious countryside is being concreted over, and too many awful dwellings are being crammed into town centres for my liking.
Interesting, as I don't think enough of our glorious countryside is being concreted over - godsdsamned NIMBYs in the country forcing cramped little places in town centres beyond all reason.
It was an amazing night. I remember posting when the Newcastle came in that Leave had won. It just seemed to be obvious but the market took hours and hours not helped by a media who seemed totally incapable of recognising what was right in their face.
We are very poorly served by our media. I don't think Gove is completely right about experts but the discussion on here was once again on such a different level it was like we were watching a different event.
UK political reporting often seems to be a game of 'hunt the gaffe', with programmes/articles devoted to petty point scoring. Very little 'big picture' reporting.
I couldn't agree more. And there's massive confirmation bias too. Anyone who isn't of the same political persuasion as the media simply gets tired of hearing the same New Labour variant opinions, and ignores them.
Surely someone is willing to stand up and own this? They would get my respect, as a remain voter. This isn't about party politics or careers anymore. It's about the nation as a whole.
But amazingly even after Sunderland had declared and credible reports were coming in from round the country, I was still able to put another £200 on at 4/1 at 1.13am. That was ridiculous and quite remarkable poor performance by the bookies.
To assume that the bookies lost because the prices were wrong - as they undoubtedly were - is a massive category error.
I am sure the bookies made a lot of money overall. However, I think they likely took a big loss on all bets placed after 11pm.
Amid talk about other countries potentially leaving the EU - I can understand arguments about the likes of Sweden and Denmark, but I can't see how Eurozone countries can seriously contemplate this without readopting their own currencies? So very different decision for them, whatever the polling figures.
In France Mme Le Pen I believe specifies leaving the Euro, rather than the EU.
And with regard to Britain as a whole, personally I find it amazing that not only did England back Brexit, but so did Wales, and flipping Northern Ireland, which was being spoken of in the same terms as Gibraltar, was 44% Leave!
As for Scotland, if anything, it was Leave that was a proxy for Indy - only the profound Leavers I know have been supportive of my Brexit facebook posts. The Remainers sure wanted to stay in the EU, and most of them in the UK too. Scots are not stupid. People here are leaping to the conclusion that they will vote for penury in a fit of Brussels inspired rage. No.
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
Conspiracy theory number 1 - they want to delay until October to desperately hope something really vital happens which means they can ask to vote again.
I suspect the same.
I don't actually think it is the case at all - what could change? No new offer is coming, a poll saying people regret their choice is not substantive, and if we changed our minds we wouldn't even get the Cameron deal now, and the public would go absolutely nuts - but I can see pressure being applied internally not just from Europe to get a move on, some fearing it is so.
One or two people still campaigning for Remain. A million signatures? I think they need another sixteen million, and no under eighteens, please?
Sad, but they'll recover soon and realise the world hasn't ended.
If the SNP want to join up with the EU, they may need to hurry up - it could be closing down soon.
I admit to being surprised by the result (we're not all Nostradamus), but the weasels and stoats have occupied Toad Hall, and if Ratty and Mole want it back, they need to ask nicely.
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
Conspiracy theory number 1 - they want to delay until October to desperately hope something really vital happens which means they can ask to vote again.
I suspect the same.
But they have (at least) two years in which to do such waiting, even if the article is invoked tomorrow. Two years is a long time in politics, and I suspect the next two years are going to feel particularly long. Even when the terms of exit are known, who is to say that there won't be a campaign for the exit terms to go to another vote, before we leave? There are actually good as well as opportunistic arguments for such a call, not least because no-one ever put before the population any sort of proposal for what Brexit would look like.
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
I think it's shameful Cameron, Osborne, May etc have all gone to ground.
Before the vote, Leavers on here were saying that post-Brexit a period of cool reflection was required. When I pointed out this wasn't a yoga class I was firmly informed that nothing good comes of rushing things. I'm of that mind too now I must say. Let's put our feet up, have a cup of tea. It'll all turn out right in the end...
At the last election Cameron stated that if re-elected he would serve a full term as Prime Minister. In the course of the Referendum campaign he indicated that in the event of a Leave vote he would activate Article 50 immediately. Throughout the campaign – and as recently as last weekend – Cameron said that he intended to remain Prime Minister whether the result proved to be Remain or Leave. In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth. Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget? I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
Where is Osborne? Has anybody heard from him since Thursday night. Has he gone for a nob interview at Goldman Sachs?
Westminster needs to get a grip and show some leadership. We need a team in place to sort this out and it needs to happen now.
I think it's shameful Cameron, Osborne, May etc have all gone to ground.
I suspect things will start cranking up on Monday. Cameron is clearly a broken man so I can understand him spending the weekend with a bottle of Scotch and a duvet.
Mrs May... Well, one imagines she's spending her weekend taking "sounding's"
As for Osborne... He should have shown his face by now... But the fact he's gone into hiding doesn't surprise me in the slightest given what we know about the character. Have a feeling the 1922 will tell Cameron he's got to fire Osborne and appoint a new Chancellor on Monday.
Isn't Osborne preparing his emergency budget for Tuesday?
I can understand the Remains being upset. They did after all repeat every scare story and attack line in slavish fashion despite the utter absurdity of most of it, over the course of months, only to endure ignominious defeat.
But have ANY of them, NorthWales aside, mentioned accepting the result getting on with it, making Britain a success? Nope. They're either still indulging in bitter recrimination, trying to find some comfort in the economic travails of the UK, or fantasising about constitutional chaos. Its very telling. These are the people that were telling us they were just as patriotic as Leavers and had Britain's interests at heart. I'm sure irl they are lovely people, kind to dogs etc., but politically they're simply repulsive.
But what is especially dangerous is they are not accepting responsibility for the millions who voted Leave out of desperation about a political class that will not listen, or even worse says it is listening and does nothing. While I see there are some writers who get it, most don't seem to accept that it's their hardline Europhilia and stance on migration that is driving people to the margins.
That our entire political and cultural establishment was so uniformally for Remain should be ringing alarm bells.
But amazingly even after Sunderland had declared and credible reports were coming in from round the country, I was still able to put another £200 on at 4/1 at 1.13am. That was ridiculous and quite remarkable poor performance by the bookies.
To assume that the bookies lost because the prices were wrong - as they undoubtedly were - is a massive category error.
I am sure the bookies made a lot of money overall. However, I think they likely took a big loss on all bets placed after 11pm.
Comments
In particular telling the world that he wouldn't walk away without a 'deal'.
Remain got 48% here in Wiltshire. But decision having been made and in the absence of total economic collapse (Mad Max style), it's parliamentary vote would be the same as it always is, as it would be in most places across the south, while going hard on a unite the remain vote would be a vote loser in places it would actually hurt Labour.
Maybe the moral of the story is that pollsters should stop polling with around a week to go.
In view of his resignation statement yesterday there is surely overwhelming evidence of his compulsive aversion to telling the truth.
Ditto Osborne – when will he be announcing he date of his Emergency Budget?
I suggest that the pair have revealed themselves to be barefaced liars who were consistent only in the sheer contempt that they showed towards their own people.
Populus was spectacularly dreadful on the internet.
Awesome thread. – Cheers OGH for the ‘behind the curtains’ peek at what serious punters get up to - you were a busy bee on the night.
Anyone thinking the Leave side would not have had some people doing the exact the same thing should Remain have won, is wearing heavy partisan blinkers.
And you can rest easy - if a legal challenge threw out the referendum result, Leave would win by even more next time.
Someone calling for a second referendum itself is also not inherently undemocratic - they're free to campaign for another vote. It'd just get confusing as if Remain won a second one, there'd also be no reason Leavers could not push for yet another vote.
I find it baffling that Labour "moderates" say they're most concerned about electability, and yet are not willing to consider the evidence of the MOST RECENT ELECTION held two days ago.
Now Labour want to replace him with someone who is "right on" pro-EU and up for open immigration.
That's going to end well...
Incidentally the Tories have similar issues, because while they do have some eurosceptics they're attitudes are still out of touch with working class Tories.
The key to successful negotiation is that you decide early on what your objectives are (which we haven't) and then enter negotiations with a show of enthusiasm (which we aren't).
I appreciate the practical problem that Cameron can't do it, and Leave doesn't collectively know what it wants in any detail. But the idea that the EU will offer us tuppence on that basis is for the birds.
Too much information OGH
Britain didn't fit into a European unification process. That wasn't what the vast bulk of the British people desired or felt comfortable - or, for those who voted on it back in the 70s, that this was what they'd signed up for. We were in a club where we didn't believe in the core aims of the club - I quite like Mark Mardell's BBC piece on this today - and where our misfitting nature was holding the rest of the EU back from the deeper integration they actually need to make some of the grander aspects of their project workable.
I think it was illiberal and undemocratic that Eurofanatics have, for decades, attempted to remold the national, cultural and political identity of the British populace. Make us all feel like good little Europeans. I actually quite liked the flag, and felt about as attached to it as to the Union Flag, and thought the EU anthem was rather good - an upbeat tune and notably free of nationalistic and nostalgic bombast. I wouldn't mind describing myself as "European" (and even post-Brexit, there's a cultural and geographic truth that I am European). No doubt if I got paid in euros, and watched the budget being announced in Brussels, and got a chance to vote directly for the President, then I'd feel a deeper attachment to the political aspects of the project too. But this is something that millions and millions of ordinary Brits didn't feel comfortable with. And plonking the EU flag on justabout anything which had a flag-like space on it, especially to emphasise the beneficence of Brussels, wasn't going to render it so.
I also think it was illiberal and undemocratic for the Euromoderates to paper over all this stuff and keep yapping away about it all being good for business and it's still at heart a trading club. "One day you'll see, just you wait, that having the euro will be good for your pocket." In many ways this was even more dishonest, and it didn't have the redeeming characteristic of a bold and noble dream at heart. I'm sure the reason the dream was avoided was because they knew the great mass of the British public didn't share in it.
(I'm not a unionist by inclination. I also think it would be terrible for shire England to attempt to dictate to Scottish people what their national identity is and where their nation should fit into the world.)
If Labour were to be openly advocate ignoring the referendum result as a position in a snap GE, then they might well choose to vote then to stop that though, I suspect.
All I want is an effective leader of the Labour Party capable of leading an effective opposition in difficult times and providing a viable alternative.
Corbyn is a million miles from that.
It's a bit like getting rid of a guest that has overstayed his welcome. "Can so and so give you a lift home? He's leaving now.It saves a walk in the rain"
They just lost their second biggest contributor and are carrying two, perhaps more, bankrupt countries. The EU leaders also know that there is growing agitation among the populations on the continent for the EU to change.
I wouldn't be feeling that comfortable if I were running the EU right now. Greece is a major crisis on the horizon.
So there's politicking on both sides here - we're not ready to begin, and they're not wanting to make us any kind of too decent an offer.
Project Fear becoming Stark Dawning is like Brown's transformation from Stalin to Mr Bean.
Couple of things I wonder about practically. Putting aside fiscal issues, oil and currency - those are Big Questions, but I think susceptible to answers in the long run - isn't Scotland much more deeply integrated with rUK than rEU?
From a practical situation, what percentage of Scotland's trade is with (i) rUK, (ii) rEU, (iii) USA,(iv) elsewhere in the world? What are the long term trends in this, bearing in mind the global trade is generally growing much faster than intra-EU trade, and developing economies are expanding at a much greater pace than the EU (i.e. EU's share of world GDP is shrinking), and that for the very long-run view we ought to consider cutting oil exports out of the equation?
From the point of view of free movement, how many Scots move to rUK (for work/study/whatever) compared to rEU? How many Scots live in Scotland but commute to rUK for work, and how many (won't be many, but will be a few) commute to rEU?
If the question is one of "how do we retain our long-term access to our major trading partner" I wonder to what extent the best answer to that is Sindy and Scotmain.
Belgium does not have a proper gubberment (akin to Scotland). If NEXIT occurs soon there will be no Belgium (nor Brussels).
The dream of the EU was always nice. It is frustrating it might be able to prevent further breakups by becoming more flexible, only because we, the ones who wanted more flexibility, have left. The truth is they didn't think they had to change, so they didn't. Now, maybe they do. Too late for us, but maybe not others.
We've been the "runt of the litter" for the EU for so long that people can't get out of that mindset it seems. The voters have told us we've got to start asserting ourselves but it seems the politicians haven't yet caught up.
And too few multinational oil moguls.
But have ANY of them, NorthWales aside, mentioned accepting the result getting on with it, making Britain a success? Nope. They're either still indulging in bitter recrimination, trying to find some comfort in the economic travails of the UK, or fantasising about constitutional chaos. Its very telling. These are the people that were telling us they were just as patriotic as Leavers and had Britain's interests at heart. I'm sure irl they are lovely people, kind to dogs etc., but politically they're simply repulsive.
FluffyThoughts said:
» show previous quotes
APOLS:
As a kid in the 'Seventies it was all 'Harp', 'Colt' and 'Hoffmeister'. My old-man used to drink Carlsberg-SB'. I tried it and found the taste disgusting. [Gold-Label is nice though!]
Tried 'Tennants', 'Stella' and the rest. Got peeved-off and moved to Guinness (true-brew). Now into Cider and Craft Ales.
:ho-hum:'
I have drunk them all , Stella is ok today as an everyday lager, anything below the 5% mark is pretty tasteless.
I do prefer craft beer or good Cider myself nowadays, would not drink cheap lager at all ( well unless it was that or nothing ).
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659064/ANDREW-PIERCE-Complacency-Number-10-bunker-turned-panic-tears.html#ixzz4Cab3lP68
Leave? I thought you too loyal to Cameron for that. Bet you didn't want to destroy him. Must be hard right now.
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00495386.pdf
"Table E.6: Net Fiscal Balance:
Scotland - Including North Sea (geographical share)
2014-15 : -14,934bn"
"The net fiscal balance measures the difference between total public sector expenditure and public sector revenue"
No, that was Patrick. I voted Remain. And you?
What if the EU doesn't make a nice offer ever?
Does that mean the UK stays in the EU indefinitely?
Mrs May... Well, one imagines she's spending her weekend taking "sounding's"
As for Osborne... He should have shown his face by now... But the fact he's gone into hiding doesn't surprise me in the slightest given what we know about the character. Have a feeling the 1922 will tell Cameron he's got to fire Osborne and appoint a new Chancellor on Monday.
Mr Elliot of the Vote Leave campaign has given an interview to a US publication that you might find of interest.
https://www.campaignsandelections.com/campaign-insider/how-leave-beat-back-a-u-s-consultant-led-effort-to-remain-in-the-eu
As for Scotland, if anything, it was Leave that was a proxy for Indy - only the profound Leavers I know have been supportive of my Brexit facebook posts. The Remainers sure wanted to stay in the EU, and most of them in the UK too. Scots are not stupid. People here are leaping to the conclusion that they will vote for penury in a fit of Brussels inspired rage. No.
Sad, but they'll recover soon and realise the world hasn't ended.
If the SNP want to join up with the EU, they may need to hurry up - it could be closing down soon.
I admit to being surprised by the result (we're not all Nostradamus), but the weasels and stoats have occupied Toad Hall, and if Ratty and Mole want it back, they need to ask nicely.
Has anybody heard from him since Thursday night.
Has he gone for a nob interview at Goldman Sachs?
That our entire political and cultural establishment was so uniformally for Remain should be ringing alarm bells.