You can have a constituency link with PR, either via multi-member constituencies Irish-style or with the constituency plus top-up system recommended by Jenkins and similar to that used in Scotland and for the GLA
The problem with any list system is that it's damn-near impossible to vote out somebody at the top of the list, and absolutely impossible to elect somebody further down the list without electing everyone else above them.
Say UKIP is standing in my multi-member constituency. Nigel Farage is top of the list. Douglas Carswell is second. I want to vote Carswell as my MP because I quite like him as an individual but I can't stand Farage, or UKIP generally.
Well, I can't have Carswell without Farage, and by voting UKIP hoping for Carswell, I increase the probability of getting only Farage, which would be worse than no UKIP at all.
Does this break the 'Constituency link' as we know it? Definitely. Everything is reduced to a vote 'for a party', and to hell with all the subtle nuances that make British politics so fascinating.
I'm ideologically in favour of PR - but there is no established system that achieves it without losing much of what is good about FPTP. (Obviously I have a perfect system in my own mind...)
But, most of all, all your complaints, even if they were justified, are completely orthogonal to the issue on the ballot paper today. Quite apart from anything else, the principal economic argument, such as it is, of the Leave campaign is for increased globalisation, opening up our markets to increased competition, reducing tariffs, and trading more with countries such as China, Brazil and USA. If that were to come about and actually work (I'm sceptical, but let's assume the best), how on earth is that supposed to help the little man rather than big business, in a way which membership of the EU - with all its regulations and social protections - doesn't?
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
My favourite Peter Mandelson story is the time he was taken to view his prospective constituency 'oop north.' To initiate their man of the people they took our Peter into a chippy. He was delighted to see one of his favourite dishes behind the counter and asked if he could also have 'some of that lovely guacamole.'
That mushy peas tale is still told across County Durham.
Report from the front. In genteel Blundellsands, voting was reported as the same as a GE, with more people than in the locals already having voted by 1.30pm. Only noticed one poster, Remain, on a Labour activist's house.
@JoeMurphyLondon: If he wins, Cameron could postpone the reshuffle until 2017, predicts a well-placed Tory. https://t.co/dsxbTUFO3m “Delaying it will focus people’s minds. Those MPs elected in 2010 and 2015 will be forced to ask themselves, ‘Do I really want to spend the next four or nine years moping in the Tea Room with Bill Cash and Bernard Jenkin, plotting the next referendum?’ Even those who backed Leave will not wish to waste their careers like that. Cameron could easily put the reshuffle off until 2017.”
Cameron's trouble is not whether Gove, Johnson etc are prepared to sign such a letter - it's the unbiddable backbench nutters that will bring him down. Of the 65 who refused to back the punishment budget, most will be prepared to lodge a letter with the Chairman of the 1922 - if they haven't already.
He'll have to throw something to the wolves - and it'll probably be Osborne.
Well I have just voted to Leave the European Union. This felt like the most momentous vote of my life and regardless of the result I am proud, in a very small way, to have contributed to the effort to let the United Kingdom make and live under its own laws. For me this campaign has always been at its heart about democracy; nothing is more important. All other issues run from this democratic foundation. I love Europe, but believe that the European Union on its current trajectory is making the peoples of Europe poorer and less free.
I am under no illusions that a vote to Leave the EU will be the solution to all problems, but it will kick-start a process of democratic renewal here in the UK and, I believe, across Europe. More than this it may demonstrate to those running the European Union that a centralising bureaucracy is not the answer to the challenges of today or tomorrow; where flexibility, speed of action and engagement with the public will be required.
I have not particularly enjoyed the campaign itself. The tone was not one that I would have chosen. Yet this did not and could not diminish my belief that a vote to Leave will provide the UK with a democratic boost. I want an outward looking, innovative, prosperous and fair country, positively influencing the world. I believe that leaving the EU will best help us meet that vision. Many may disagree yet regardless of the result, I will keep pushing for such a country.
To finish some words from Robert Frost:
" I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I— I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference."
My favourite Peter Mandelson story is the time he was taken to view his prospective constituency 'oop north.' To initiate their man of the people they took our Peter into a chippy. He was delighted to see one of his favourite dishes behind the counter and asked if he could also have 'some of that lovely guacamole.'
That mushy peas tale is still told across County Durham.
If anyone is interested and has a spare minute (the latter part probably applies to just about everyone posting here!), I have set up a survey via survey monkey. Only 2 questions - who do you want to win, and who do you think will win. All anonymous. Would be interesting to see a summary of what pb.com thinks,this close to the end:
I think you are tilting at windmills: very noble, brings a tear to the eye, garners "hear hears" from all and sundry, but at the end of the day deeply misplaced.
So leaving the EU is going to be one in the eye for, er, the Westminster Clique? You sound like Owen Jones. Only with less logic. What on earth is leaving the EU going to do to thwart the Westminster clique? If anything it would be concentrating the power in an even smaller elite. You say how MPs are dreadful, disconnected, starstruck, etc, etc and then....you want to give them total power over our lives.
Love it or hate it, if you think that our MPs are the problem, then I would have thought the more power devolved to the EU the better.
Sorry, Charles, it all sounded very noble and noblesse obligey, and well done you for railing against this huge, perceived injustice, but an asinine post nevertheless.
Good afternoon, Mr. Britain. The weather's been rather nice today, although one hopes it will not turn humid as the evening approaches.
Stormy, with strange and shifting interludes. Like the campaign up till now, and not obviously any kind of help to either side.
Storm is over Haslemere and approaching Guildford. It will reach SW London in about 60 minutes. Bad for Remain. But it will reach East Anglia in about 3 hours. Good for Remain.
My favourite Peter Mandelson story is the time he was taken to view his prospective constituency 'oop north.' To initiate their man of the people they took our Peter into a chippy. He was delighted to see one of his favourite dishes behind the counter and asked if he could also have 'some of that lovely guacamole.'
That mushy peas tale is still told across County Durham.
@JoeMurphyLondon: If he wins, Cameron could postpone the reshuffle until 2017, predicts a well-placed Tory. https://t.co/dsxbTUFO3m “Delaying it will focus people’s minds. Those MPs elected in 2010 and 2015 will be forced to ask themselves, ‘Do I really want to spend the next four or nine years moping in the Tea Room with Bill Cash and Bernard Jenkin, plotting the next referendum?’ Even those who backed Leave will not wish to waste their careers like that. Cameron could easily put the reshuffle off until 2017.”
Cameron's trouble is not whether Gove, Johnson etc are prepared to sign such a letter - it's the unbiddable backbench nutters that will bring him down. Of the 65 who refused to back the punishment budget, most will be prepared to lodge a letter with the Chairman of the 1922 - if they haven't already.
He'll have to throw something to the wolves - and it'll probably be Osborne.
Shift Osborne to For Sec. Bring in a pro-small business CoE, do some banker bashing for the 'little people'.
Fundamentally, I've become increasingly concerned about some of the gaps opening up in this country between those who are elected to govern, and the people who they ignore and leave behind. London has always had a distinct character, but over the last 20 years, this has become increasingly pronounced. ...
[snip for brevity]
Excellent stuff, Charles, and a very articulate statement of why I support Cameron's politics, which is in the great tradition of one-nation Conservatism.
But how on earth do you get from that to wanting to risk trashing the economy by leaving the EU and supporting the more right-wing type of BOOer Tory? An utter logical disconnect, if you don't mind me saying so. I am completely baffled.
Because of the people who lose from globalisation and are ignored by their elected representatives.
Because our economy isn't working. It serves the MNCs and makes life tough for small businesses. That just isn't right. It's hollowed out the tax base and encouraged companies to gouge for "incentives" to stay where they are.
Fundamentally our entire system is based on making the haves richer and ignoring the have nots. Leaving the EU gives us a chance to reset.
*Applause*
The differnece between the "Noblesse oblige" sector of our ruling class, who view their role as stewards (oh, and taking some profit on the way) and the cowboy-rack-up-the-cash-and fuck everyone-else of the modern Conservative Party has seldom been so blatant.
I am at the count in south London tonight but am very interested in whether peoples theories about where the yes and no votes have emanated from prove true. Therefore the initial opening of the boxes from various polling stations will be the part of the night I'm looking forward to. Calling it for remain now 56-44
My favourite Peter Mandelson story is the time he was taken to view his prospective constituency 'oop north.' To initiate their man of the people they took our Peter into a chippy. He was delighted to see one of his favourite dishes behind the counter and asked if he could also have 'some of that lovely guacamole.'
That mushy peas tale is still told across County Durham.
@JoeMurphyLondon: If he wins, Cameron could postpone the reshuffle until 2017, predicts a well-placed Tory. https://t.co/dsxbTUFO3m “Delaying it will focus people’s minds. Those MPs elected in 2010 and 2015 will be forced to ask themselves, ‘Do I really want to spend the next four or nine years moping in the Tea Room with Bill Cash and Bernard Jenkin, plotting the next referendum?’ Even those who backed Leave will not wish to waste their careers like that. Cameron could easily put the reshuffle off until 2017.”
Cameron's trouble is not whether Gove, Johnson etc are prepared to sign such a letter - it's the unbiddable backbench nutters that will bring him down. Of the 65 who refused to back the punishment budget, most will be prepared to lodge a letter with the Chairman of the 1922 - if they haven't already.
He'll have to throw something to the wolves - and it'll probably be Osborne.
Shift Osborne to For Sec. Bring in a pro-small business CoE, do some banker bashing for the 'little people'.
Thats what i would do if i was Cameron.
Exactly. If feeling mean he makes Johnson Chancellor - see how popular you are there Boris...
Because of the people who lose from globalisation and are ignored by their elected representatives.
Because our economy isn't working. It serves the MNCs and makes life tough for small businesses. That just isn't right. It's hollowed out the tax base and encouraged companies to gouge for "incentives" to stay where they are.
Fundamentally our entire system is based on making the haves richer and ignoring the have nots. Leaving the EU gives us a chance to reset.
Small businesses are thriving. We are creating jobs faster than almost any other developed economy. Standard of living are rising, and will rise faster in the coming months (assuming a Remain, of course). Yes, following the 2008/9 crash things have been tough, but the less-well off have actually been extremely well insulated from the worst effects.
But, most of all, all your complaints, even if they were justified, are completely orthogonal to the issue on the ballot paper today. Quite apart from anything else, the principal economic argument, such as it is, of the Leave campaign is for increased globalisation, opening up our markets to increased competition, reducing tariffs, and trading more with countries such as China, Brazil and USA. If that were to come about and actually work (I'm sceptical, but let's assume the best), how on earth is that supposed to help the little man rather than big business, in a way which membership of the EU - with all its regulations and social protections - doesn't?
It makes no sense. I get the Patrick Minford argument - advocating untrammeled globalisation red in tooth and claw, remove all tariffs, let prices drop, and accept the hit on manufacturing in the hope that the resultant Thatcherite liberalisation will eventually outweigh the short-term damage to jobs and existing industry - but I really don't get yours.
I need to do some work today.
The current structure favours faceless global corporations with no loyalty to their communities. They shift their tax bases around. They gouge governments for incentives to provide employment. They import cheap labour rather than investing in training.
Globalisation - free trade with the world - is a good thing. Screwing the people to increase the EPS and bonuses of the very few is not.
Cameron governs for the few, not the many. The EU is set up to benefit MNCs, not SMEs. Breaking free from that provides the opportunity - which we may not take - to recast our economy in a much more productive way.
I am at the count in south London tonight but am very interested in whether peoples theories about where the yes and no votes have emanated from prove true. Therefore the initial opening of the boxes from various polling stations will be the part of the night I'm looking forward to. Calling it for remain now 56-44
@JoeMurphyLondon: If he wins, Cameron could postpone the reshuffle until 2017, predicts a well-placed Tory. https://t.co/dsxbTUFO3m “Delaying it will focus people’s minds. Those MPs elected in 2010 and 2015 will be forced to ask themselves, ‘Do I really want to spend the next four or nine years moping in the Tea Room with Bill Cash and Bernard Jenkin, plotting the next referendum?’ Even those who backed Leave will not wish to waste their careers like that. Cameron could easily put the reshuffle off until 2017.”
Cameron's trouble is not whether Gove, Johnson etc are prepared to sign such a letter - it's the unbiddable backbench nutters that will bring him down. Of the 65 who refused to back the punishment budget, most will be prepared to lodge a letter with the Chairman of the 1922 - if they haven't already.
He'll have to throw something to the wolves - and it'll probably be Osborne.
Shift Osborne to For Sec. Bring in a pro-small business CoE, do some banker bashing for the 'little people'.
Thats what i would do if i was Cameron.
Exactly. If feeling mean he makes Johnson Chancellor - see how popular you are there Boris...
I might say Hammond instead, i don't think Johnson is CoE material!!
Mr. B2, blame Boreas, the Greek god of the north wind (and where we get the Borealis bit of the Aurora).
S/he must be on holiday, since all these very lively storms are pushing up NE from the pernicious EU and headed for the UKIP-leaning areas of South & East England...
Lolz if it is 55 vs 45 Mirror of indyref, the conspiracy theories will be off the chart
Talking about Mirror...I looked on a news stand earlier and ALL the popular press plus the Telegraph ans Spectator have huge banner headlines saying some variation on 'Vote Out!' I've never seen them so unanimous.
If the result goes anywhere near what's predicted it'll show what people think of their newspapers.
I thought it worth posting why I voted Leave as it is probably against my financial self-interest (although @rcs1000 you'd better be wrong about London house prices!)
Fundamentally, I've become increasingly concerned about some of the gaps opening up in this country between those who are elected to govern, and the people who they ignore and leave behind. London has always had a distinct character, but over the last 20 years, this has become increasingly pronounced.
We can, and should, be better than that as a party and as a country. The Conservatives used to be the party of the One Nation. They have forgotten how to do that - and I fear they have forgotten what it even means.
To lead is to serve. Our leaders need to be taught that they are not in charge. Vote Leave: take control.
Very good post. I don't agree with all of it, but I wish this case had been made in the campaign. Just as I wish we had heard more from the left on the issues identified by the Guardian writer who is voting no.
The one thing I think we all agree on here, is that the campaigns could have benefited massively from more light and less heat. Not the finest hour of politics in this country.
both sides are to blame but cameron started the whole mess in a tawdry & un prime-ministerial way. the two week pre campaign purdah during which he tried to manipulate the vote was awful. i've lots of friends who went from remain to leave because of cameron.
The £9m leafleting was another. And trading concessions on the Trades Union Bill for £1.5m of Remain campaigning. Squalid and bent. Completely unforgivable in my eyes.
Nasty calls to the COC to get John Longworth suspended, but not seeming to mind when prominent leaders of other supposedly impartial organisations lined up to support Remain.
I suppose we can take solace that Samantha's Cameron's daughter will be able to get that apprenticeship now.
Is Samantha Cameron's daughter planning to become a carpenter or electrician?
From the Daily Mail interview:
"But I look at my daughter Nancy and think that in only six years she could be starting an apprenticeship"
My favourite moment of the campaign. It doesn't get more authentic than that, I'm sure you'll agree.
As mentioned by me on here before. It is up there with Zac saying his favourite shop (in the My London section in the Standard) was Londis.
Not as good as his ex's Scherezade's Guardian lifestyle article (now deleted as "copyright expires") on raising goats as a green lifestyle option. She really did say something like "don't worry about having enough space to rear goats, you only need to use one of your smaller fields".
Rachael Johnson penned one of the most ridiculous articles I ever read in the Times. It was about the horrors of online grocery shopping, and how she couldn't buy her favourites such quail tongue pate, artisan knitted brioche from Bratislava etc.
It had rather too much detail to be a self-parody, someone compared her to Imelda Marcos buying shoes.
Apple is apparently replacing the 3.5mm headphone jack on their phones with the Lightning connector. Yet another user-unfriendly, messy and cash-grabbing move by Apple.
Oh Josias, how I've missed your Apple posts. Go on, talk railways to me .
Unfortunately (*), I cannot think of a way of combining the two...
But it's still true: Apple is IMO the most evil large company in the tech sector. And that's saying summat.
(*) Or fortunately for posters
Easy: Class 31/0 were known as "Toffee Apples" due to their unique "Red Circle" multiple working equipment, which was incompatible with that on any other type of locomotive.
I went for a knife-edge Leave win. Probably this is says about what I see as being the best result I can realistically hope for - but who really knows? Nobody, at this point.
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
It's a massive error to say that the working classes have struggled under globalisation. They benefit massively from it - all those large-screen TVs, cheap and good quality supermarket food, cheap holidays, good-quality cars at low prices, smartphones, new bathrooms and kitchens, clothes that cost virtually nothing: these are all benefits of globalisation. The idea that the bulk of the population has been impoverished in real terms by globalisation is a myth, and a pernicious one at that. We are all richer than ever before.
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
Lolz if it is 55 vs 45 Mirror of indyref, the conspiracy theories will be off the chart
Talking about Mirror...I looked on a news stand earlier and ALL the popular press plus the Telegraph ans Spectator have huge banner headlines saying some variation on 'Vote Out!' I've never seen them so unanimous.
If the result goes anywhere near what's predicted it'll show what people think of their newspapers.
The popular press are on one side. The government machine, the BBC, and weight of the Establishment on the other. So, while it was certainly helpful for Leave to have the popular press on their side, it wasn't going to be decisive on its own.
Lolz if it is 55 vs 45 Mirror of indyref, the conspiracy theories will be off the chart
Talking about Mirror...I looked on a news stand earlier and ALL the popular press plus the Telegraph ans Spectator have huge banner headlines saying some variation on 'Vote Out!' I've never seen them so unanimous.
If the result goes anywhere near what's predicted it'll show what people think of their newspapers.
Not so. Mirror, Times, Guardian lead on Remain.
I'll partially agree with you. People don't wholly take their opinions from their preferred paper. There are just too many other sources of information/influence, even if it's just Facebook. Fleet Street isn't the opinion former it was even ten years ago.
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
It's a massive error to say that the working classes have struggled under globalisation. They benefit massively from it - all those large-screen TVs, cheap and good quality supermarket food, cheap holidays, good-quality cars at low prices, smartphones, new bathrooms and kitchens, clothes that cost virtually nothing: these are all benefits of globalisation. The idea that the bulk of the population has been impoverished in real terms by globalisation is a myth, and a pernicious one at that. We are all richer than ever before.
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
Just need about 5 million more houses and it'd all be fixed.
I am at the count in south London tonight but am very interested in whether peoples theories about where the yes and no votes have emanated from prove true. Therefore the initial opening of the boxes from various polling stations will be the part of the night I'm looking forward to. Calling it for remain now 56-44
Mr. 1983, I don't think the Church should poke its holy nose into political business.
But, as you say, if the Archsocialist feels free to spout political drivel from the pulpit people cannot complain if his revered underlings feel free to do the same.
Anecdote: Site manager at an industrial site in Yorkshire called all of his staff into the conference room this morning. Told them all to Vote Leave.
To me, this sort of nonsense is totally counterproductive.
In some communities that behaviour is quite common, particularly West Yorkshire
In days gone by the local mill owner would march his workers to the polling station to vote Liberal; the squire would march his agricultural workers to the polling station to vote Conservative.
Good afternoon, Mr. Britain. The weather's been rather nice today, although one hopes it will not turn humid as the evening approaches.
Stormy, with strange and shifting interludes. Like the campaign up till now, and not obviously any kind of help to either side.
Storm is over Haslemere and approaching Guildford. It will reach SW London in about 60 minutes. Bad for Remain. But it will reach East Anglia in about 3 hours. Good for Remain.
The timing is important, the peak voting on the way home from work will be effected in London but not East Anglia (well it could effect those in East Anglia who work in London but they may well be biased to Remain anyway).
I think you are tilting at windmills: very noble, brings a tear to the eye, garners "hear hears" from all and sundry, but at the end of the day deeply misplaced.
So leaving the EU is going to be one in the eye for, er, the Westminster Clique? You sound like Owen Jones. Only with less logic. What on earth is leaving the EU going to do to thwart the Westminster clique? If anything it would be concentrating the power in an even smaller elite. You say how MPs are dreadful, disconnected, starstruck, etc, etc and then....you want to give them total power over our lives.
Love it or hate it, if you think that our MPs are the problem, then I would have thought the more power devolved to the EU the better.
Sorry, Charles, it all sounded very noble and noblesse obligey, and well done you for railing against this huge, perceived injustice, but an asinine post nevertheless.
Never miss a chance to insult someone else, do you?
The point is that our MPs can be sacked if we don't like what they are doing. Taking them out of the EU gives them nowhere to hide. It also makes the point that the voters are in charge.
I'm officially calling this referendum for Remain or Leave, no one else is going to win
You can't rule out the exact dead heat
If it's a dead heat, Remain wins.
If it's a dead heat they'll call for a recount.
I read elsewhere that there's no legal basis for a national recount
That's because the odds of it occurring are so vanishingly small it is less likely than George Osborne growing an orange beard and being exposed as a Martian.
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
It's a massive error to say that the working classes have struggled under globalisation. They benefit massively from it - all those large-screen TVs, cheap and good quality supermarket food, cheap holidays, good-quality cars at low prices, smartphones, new bathrooms and kitchens, clothes that cost virtually nothing: these are all benefits of globalisation. The idea that the bulk of the population has been impoverished in real terms by globalisation is a myth, and a pernicious one at that. We are all richer than ever before.
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
I think globalisation has been excellent for poor people around the world, and we should welcome that. It's an undeniable good thing that countries where people starved in living memory now have reasonable standards of living.
But, I think it stopped being a good thing for people in rich countries about 15 years ago.
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
It's a massive error to say that the working classes have struggled under globalisation. They benefit massively from it - all those large-screen TVs, cheap and good quality supermarket food, cheap holidays, good-quality cars at low prices, smartphones, new bathrooms and kitchens, clothes that cost virtually nothing: these are all benefits of globalisation. The idea that the bulk of the population has been impoverished in real terms by globalisation is a myth, and a pernicious one at that. We are all richer than ever before.
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
Just need about 5 million more houses and it'd all be fixed.
Oops.
That's been my argument; it's the scale and pace of immigration. We need planning reform, welfare reform (e.g. towards a contributory system) and a metric buttload of housebuilding (good quality housing though!).
You can have a constituency link with PR, either via multi-member constituencies Irish-style or with the constituency plus top-up system recommended by Jenkins and similar to that used in Scotland and for the GLA
The problem with any list system is that it's damn-near impossible to vote out somebody at the top of the list, and absolutely impossible to elect somebody further down the list without electing everyone else above them.
Say UKIP is standing in my multi-member constituency. Nigel Farage is top of the list. Douglas Carswell is second. I want to vote Carswell as my MP because I quite like him as an individual but I can't stand Farage, or UKIP generally.
Well, I can't have Carswell without Farage, and by voting UKIP hoping for Carswell, I increase the probability of getting only Farage, which would be worse than no UKIP at all.
Does this break the 'Constituency link' as we know it? Definitely. Everything is reduced to a vote 'for a party', and to hell with all the subtle nuances that make British politics so fascinating.
I'm ideologically in favour of PR - but there is no established system that achieves it without losing much of what is good about FPTP. (Obviously I have a perfect system in my own mind...)
And in the majority of FPTP seats, a) the colour of MP who will win is 99% known in advance, however you as a local voter might decide, b) whether you get Farage or Carswell has also been decided in advance, by four or five party activists a year or two prior.
I absolutely agree with you about the faults of a List system - which is why I prefer STV or constituency plus limited top-up - but these same flaws (of party control and no voter choice) are already deeply embedded in the system we currently use.
Good afternoon, Mr. Britain. The weather's been rather nice today, although one hopes it will not turn humid as the evening approaches.
Stormy, with strange and shifting interludes. Like the campaign up till now, and not obviously any kind of help to either side.
Storm is over Haslemere and approaching Guildford. It will reach SW London in about 60 minutes. Bad for Remain. But it will reach East Anglia in about 3 hours. Good for Remain.
The timing is important, the peak voting on the way home from work will be effected in London but not East Anglia (well it could effect those in East Anglia who work in London but they may well be biased to Remain anyway).
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
It's a massive error to say that the working classes have struggled under globalisation. They benefit massively from it - all those large-screen TVs, cheap and good quality supermarket food, cheap holidays, good-quality cars at low prices, smartphones, new bathrooms and kitchens, clothes that cost virtually nothing: these are all benefits of globalisation. The idea that the bulk of the population has been impoverished in real terms by globalisation is a myth, and a pernicious one at that. We are all richer than ever before.
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
Sure, they haven't struggled in real terms. No-one has [that's as much to do with progress as globalisation, of course]. But they are still being left behind.
I think you are tilting at windmills: very noble, brings a tear to the eye, garners "hear hears" from all and sundry, but at the end of the day deeply misplaced.
So leaving the EU is going to be one in the eye for, er, the Westminster Clique? You sound like Owen Jones. Only with less logic. What on earth is leaving the EU going to do to thwart the Westminster clique? If anything it would be concentrating the power in an even smaller elite. You say how MPs are dreadful, disconnected, starstruck, etc, etc and then....you want to give them total power over our lives.
Love it or hate it, if you think that our MPs are the problem, then I would have thought the more power devolved to the EU the better.
Sorry, Charles, it all sounded very noble and noblesse obligey, and well done you for railing against this huge, perceived injustice, but an asinine post nevertheless.
Never miss a chance to insult someone else, do you?
The point is that our MPs can be sacked if we don't like what they are doing. Taking them out of the EU gives them nowhere to hide. It also makes the point that the voters are in charge.
Accountability, in a nutshell. It doesn't just work in business.
Mr. 1983, I don't think the Church should poke its holy nose into political business.
But, as you say, if the Archsocialist feels free to spout political drivel from the pulpit people cannot complain if his revered underlings feel free to do the same.
The local vicar where I work said Vote Leave in the parish magazine.
I'm officially calling this referendum for Remain or Leave, no one else is going to win
You can't rule out the exact dead heat
If it's a dead heat, Remain wins.
If it's a dead heat they'll call for a recount.
I read elsewhere that there's no legal basis for a national recount
That's because the odds of it occurring are so vanishingly small it is less likely than George Osborne growing an orange beard and being exposed as a Martian.
Mr. 1983, I don't think the Church should poke its holy nose into political business.
But, as you say, if the Archsocialist feels free to spout political drivel from the pulpit people cannot complain if his revered underlings feel free to do the same.
The local vicar where I work said Vote Leave in the parish magazine.
Birmingham also surprises me with 48-52 for Leave.
I think leave relying on cities like Birmingham should have rang alarm bells. A campaign based 80% on immigration is not going to win cities like Birmingham, Bradford which was also predicted to be narrowly leave. Its not that these places don't want controlled immigration they do, they are just not going to vote for a side that bangs on about that to the detriment of everything elese.
Another great post by you. In the final analysis, assuming a Remain victory, it will be the overplaying of the immigration card, and the idiocy of the hateful poster campaign that will be seen (rightly or wrongly) as the turning point. To think some on here defended it. It was a shameful, squalid campaign.
In your - relentless, relentless - view.
Both campaigns were squalid.
Only one of the campaigns published a poster of people with dark faces in a queue, with the message Breaking Point over the top of it.
Remain lost the moral high ground when too many of its supporters tried to make capital out of a murder.
Both as disgusting as each other.
Neither campaign did that. A party is not a campaign.
Mr. 1983, I don't think the Church should poke its holy nose into political business.
But, as you say, if the Archsocialist feels free to spout political drivel from the pulpit people cannot complain if his revered underlings feel free to do the same.
The local vicar where I work said Vote Leave in the parish magazine.
My next door neighbour posted a bundle of leaflets through my door and a letter explaining that God helped Britain defeat the German's twice and the Spanish Armada, and that God wanted us to vote out....
I hosted a couple of fundraising parties for them, but our (non-family) chairman asked the family not to take a public stance because it was be personally embarrassing for him.
Free trade doesn't require free movement of people. The working classes have struggled under globalisation, understandably. Letting the rest of the globe then come in and undercut them on the unoutsourceable jobs (building extensions, driving taxis, cleaning and hairdressing) is taking the piss out of them a bit, don't you think?
It's a massive error to say that the working classes have struggled under globalisation. They benefit massively from it - all those large-screen TVs, cheap and good quality supermarket food, cheap holidays, good-quality cars at low prices, smartphones, new bathrooms and kitchens, clothes that cost virtually nothing: these are all benefits of globalisation. The idea that the bulk of the population has been impoverished in real terms by globalisation is a myth, and a pernicious one at that. We are all richer than ever before.
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
I think globalisation has been excellent for poor people around the world, and we should welcome that. It's an undeniable good thing that countries where people starved in living memory now have reasonable standards of living.
But, I think it stopped being a good thing for people in rich countries about 15 years ago.
Yes, people have more things in material terms but feel dissatisfied with quality of life. They have a gigantic TV but have to put up with more road and train rage than before.
Sure, they haven't struggled in real terms. No-one has [that's as much to do with progress as globalisation, of course]. But they are still being left behind.
Some are, some of their children are doing very well, in completely different sorts of jobs. Much of this is about shifts in the economy from forces which have zilch to do with the EU, and some of it is Quixotic protectionism reminiscent of the battles over the loss of jobs in the printing industry thirty years ago.
@nunu When I originally came off the fence, this is what I wrote:
"No, I've come decisively off the fence now on the Remain side. The EU is seriously dysfunctional and the proposed deal is pisspoor. The Eurocrats are mediocre, reactive and short-sighted and the EU is in need of major reform that it's not going to get.
But it is now abundantly apparent that the Leave side is going to be overwhelmingly dominated by people with no judgement and very different values from me, who regard other Europeans as the enemy and immigrants as vermin, and whatever the fallout of a Leave vote it would leave Britain poorer, spiritually if not economically, as such people gained the ascendancy in public debate."
I stand by that. It wasn't a choice between good and bad. It was the choice between two profoundly unappetising options.
To get my vote, Leave would have had to have had a realistic plan which acknowledged the downsides as well as the upsides and to have campaigned with integrity, civility and basic decency for a civil and decent post-Brexit Britain. I didn't so much select Remain as was driven into it by the antics of the Leave campaign and its supporters.
But say if they still had the policy of a points based system for all immigrants, but they didn't campaign so hard on it and instead focused on the process of leaving the E.U and joining a free trade area, and Nigel Farrage wasn't a high profile member of the out campaign, would Leave have won your vote.
We all dismissed Alistar Meeks but it sounds like he could actually have been persuaded.
Well both stock and currency markets have dropped back to where they started out this morning (still up a little on yesterday), and are having a pause for thought...possibly just profits being taken from this morning's surge on the anticipated result, possibly still some pre-count jitters....
As chance would have it, a lot of my team live in rural Essex. The trains were in chaos this morning with the result that they could not get in and have had to work from home.
I expect that voting in the referendum will now actually be easier for such voters rather than harder, because they won't have to do it after the commute home.
If I were guessing, I'd guess that cohort of voters is likely to be more Remain-friendly than the non-commuters in the area but more Leave-friendly than the typical City workers.
Mr. Rentool, Constantine the Great wasn't made Emperor in Haltwhistle.
Miss Plato, the polling is certainly more divergent than the election. I wonder if TNS will regret altering their methodology for their final poll (showed a 2pt Leave lead, would've been 7pts under the old methodology).
It's a pity a number of the Leave posters on here were not integral to the campaign. We've seen far more coherent (and less inflammatory) arguments here than have got through to the voters.
Of course, despite their best efforts, we Leavers would still have been called thick Little Englanders by Remain.... And Jo Cox would still have been killed.
Comments
Say UKIP is standing in my multi-member constituency. Nigel Farage is top of the list. Douglas Carswell is second. I want to vote Carswell as my MP because I quite like him as an individual but I can't stand Farage, or UKIP generally.
Well, I can't have Carswell without Farage, and by voting UKIP hoping for Carswell, I increase the probability of getting only Farage, which would be worse than no UKIP at all.
Does this break the 'Constituency link' as we know it? Definitely. Everything is reduced to a vote 'for a party', and to hell with all the subtle nuances that make British politics so fascinating.
I'm ideologically in favour of PR - but there is no established system that achieves it without losing much of what is good about FPTP. (Obviously I have a perfect system in my own mind...)
In genteel Blundellsands, voting was reported as the same as a GE, with more people than in the locals already having voted by 1.30pm. Only noticed one poster, Remain, on a Labour activist's house.
He'll have to throw something to the wolves - and it'll probably be Osborne.
I am under no illusions that a vote to Leave the EU will be the solution to all problems, but it will kick-start a process of democratic renewal here in the UK and, I believe, across Europe. More than this it may demonstrate to those running the European Union that a centralising bureaucracy is not the answer to the challenges of today or tomorrow; where flexibility, speed of action and engagement with the public will be required.
I have not particularly enjoyed the campaign itself. The tone was not one that I would have chosen. Yet this did not and could not diminish my belief that a vote to Leave will provide the UK with a democratic boost. I want an outward looking, innovative, prosperous and fair country, positively influencing the world. I believe that leaving the EU will best help us meet that vision. Many may disagree yet regardless of the result, I will keep pushing for such a country.
To finish some words from Robert Frost:
" I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less travelled by,
And that has made all the difference."
I stand to be corrected.
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2VY7XY8
Thanks.
Interesting post Charles (the long one).
I think you are tilting at windmills: very noble, brings a tear to the eye, garners "hear hears" from all and sundry, but at the end of the day deeply misplaced.
So leaving the EU is going to be one in the eye for, er, the Westminster Clique? You sound like Owen Jones. Only with less logic. What on earth is leaving the EU going to do to thwart the Westminster clique? If anything it would be concentrating the power in an even smaller elite. You say how MPs are dreadful, disconnected, starstruck, etc, etc and then....you want to give them total power over our lives.
Love it or hate it, if you think that our MPs are the problem, then I would have thought the more power devolved to the EU the better.
Sorry, Charles, it all sounded very noble and noblesse obligey, and well done you for railing against this huge, perceived injustice, but an asinine post nevertheless.
http://bit.ly/28T5zwr
Thats what i would do if i was Cameron.
The differnece between the "Noblesse oblige" sector of our ruling class, who view their role as stewards (oh, and taking some profit on the way) and the cowboy-rack-up-the-cash-and fuck everyone-else of the modern Conservative Party has seldom been so blatant.
Calling it for remain now 56-44
The current structure favours faceless global corporations with no loyalty to their communities. They shift their tax bases around. They gouge governments for incentives to provide employment. They import cheap labour rather than investing in training.
Globalisation - free trade with the world - is a good thing. Screwing the people to increase the EPS and bonuses of the very few is not.
Cameron governs for the few, not the many. The EU is set up to benefit MNCs, not SMEs. Breaking free from that provides the opportunity - which we may not take - to recast our economy in a much more productive way.
If the result goes anywhere near what's predicted it'll show what people think of their newspapers.
The Lib Dems are the worst of the lot.
It had rather too much detail to be a self-parody, someone compared her to Imelda Marcos buying shoes.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-vote-factbox-idUKKCN0Z822U
That's not to say that EU immigration hasn't been a problem, because of its scale and suddenness. I accept that, and to my mind it's the one persuasive argument of the Leave side, even though I think the reality is that life would be much less different in that respect that voters are led to believe. But looking at the picture in the round, unemployment is low and falling, wages are rising, the economy is doing well: it's not as though there is some complete dysfunction which justifies revolutionary change.
I'll partially agree with you. People don't wholly take their opinions from their preferred paper. There are just too many other sources of information/influence, even if it's just Facebook. Fleet Street isn't the opinion former it was even ten years ago.
Mr. B2, indeed, lazy Greek god letting that nasty European weather rain on Britain
But, as you say, if the Archsocialist feels free to spout political drivel from the pulpit people cannot complain if his revered underlings feel free to do the same.
Surely they could ask for a recount. But there might be a time limit and only the last counting district would know it is a draw - Western Isles?
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2VY7XY8
Right. Must go and get some work done for a bit.
The point is that our MPs can be sacked if we don't like what they are doing. Taking them out of the EU gives them nowhere to hide. It also makes the point that the voters are in charge.
But, I think it stopped being a good thing for people in rich countries about 15 years ago.
That's been my argument; it's the scale and pace of immigration. We need planning reform, welfare reform (e.g. towards a contributory system) and a metric buttload of housebuilding (good quality housing though!).
I absolutely agree with you about the faults of a List system - which is why I prefer STV or constituency plus limited top-up - but these same flaws (of party control and no voter choice) are already deeply embedded in the system we currently use.
That seems unlikely, given how many Cameron must be shitting today.
We all dismissed Alistar Meeks but it sounds like he could actually have been persuaded.
I expect that voting in the referendum will now actually be easier for such voters rather than harder, because they won't have to do it after the commute home.
If I were guessing, I'd guess that cohort of voters is likely to be more Remain-friendly than the non-commuters in the area but more Leave-friendly than the typical City workers.
Miss Plato, the polling is certainly more divergent than the election. I wonder if TNS will regret altering their methodology for their final poll (showed a 2pt Leave lead, would've been 7pts under the old methodology).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf3NxCCSz3Y
Of course, despite their best efforts, we Leavers would still have been called thick Little Englanders by Remain.... And Jo Cox would still have been killed.
"As many as 50 people have been wounded in a shooting at a cinema complex in Germany, according to local media reports.
An armed man has reportedly barricaded himself inside the Kinopolis cinema complex, located in the town of Viernheim in western Germany"
http://news.sky.com/story/1716448/man-opens-fire-in-germany-cinema-complex