Both language and utterly different views on the role of the state and law will always set us apart from the rest of Europe. I have spent much of my life living and working outside of the UK and find the attitude of much of Europe to the role of the state in people's eyes to be utterly alien.
I think I'm right in saying that more people in every European country speak English as a second language than any other language. For example, the number of French people who are comfortable in German is I think far less than those who can get by well in English. So if common language is an important requirement for EU membership, everyone else should leave before we do.
I also think you're generalising about attitudes to the role of the state. By and large, the more northern countries (which I think is here you've spent most time?) are big state places, but that's by no means the case everywhere, and there's plenty of scope for a small-state Britain to press its case, if that's what we wanted (not me, obviously). I'm not sure Britain has ever really come to a settled view about it, anyway - on the whole, British political culture doesn't do consistent thinking.
Free Movement = Unlimited (Immigration + Emigration)
As you say. The issue (and I'm only picking on Poles because the numbers are easier to dig up) is that there ~6,000 Brits in Poland, and around 800k Poles in Britain.
What's depressed me most about the campaign is that Remain doesn't want to talk about immigration and Leave won't talk about the nuances of immigration. It's just Racist! vs Be Afraid!
There's nothing wrong with immigration. We've been welcoming people here for centuries, beginning with the Hugenots in the 18th century.
( There was a lovely radio 4 program a couple of years ago about the long tradition of Liverpool girls marrying Chinese mariners (they were seen as more reliable and faithful than the local men).
Our problem is the pace of change and the rate of increase. There is no reason to believe Cameron's measures will be effective.
That means we will have around 4 million extra people (plus the natural growth in the population) by 2030. Remain just won't engage with that. It will require welfare reform, planning reform, health reform. None of that is on the agenda.
Hence...depression.
And about 750,000 UK migrants in Spain.
Oh, my bad - we call them expats, don't we?
You're tilting at the wrong windmill, Don Quixote. I imagine the Spanish might have something to say if those 'ex-pats' arrived within the space of 30 months, instead of the last fifty years.
I strongly doubt the Spanish will want rid of our migrants there.
I think we just have fundamentally different world views.
I see Britain as an indivisible part of Europe. This is not to say that Europe is a homogenised mass, or that we do not represent a distinct strand of its civilisation but we are very much part of it and have played a crucial role over many centuries in making Europe as a whole what it is today. This is a completely different historical experience from the US.
Both language and utterly different views on the role of the state and law will always set us apart from the rest of Europe. I have spent much of my life living and working outside of the UK and find the attitude of much of Europe to the role of the state in people's eyes to be utterly alien.
Do UK attitudes to the NHS give you any reason to doubt your conclusions?
No and why should they. The NHS is unique (and the worse for it). Most European countries and most first world countries around the world have health schemes which, whilst free at the point of delivery are very different in their organisation and funding compared to the NHS.
Does it not show an attitude to the role of the state in the UK which is, to use your word, alien to your values?
I'd like LEAVE to win for only one thing; to give TSE a kick in the ball's that would shut his crowing about his marvelous PM and Chancellor, and perhaps make him shut up for a while.
I tell you what was a kick in the balls for me. UKIP winning 102 MPs at the last general election.
That stopped me crowing about the awesomeness of Dave and George.
Well with over 29K posts don't you think talk too much. You are becoming another tim, but from the other side. As for my 102 UKIP MP's that didn't materialise: so what, get over it!
The Final Wembley debate will not be as easy a win for leave as their ITV one was - Boris, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom are up against a more formidable line up of Sadiq Khan, Francis O'Grady and Ruth Davidson. It will be very interesting but I think Sadiq Khan will get much the better of Boris. However, as with everything in this campaign only a few more days to 'put up' with it
I would have thought that Remain would try to get someone in who might plausibly be thought to speak for middle England.
The vote will be won by labour voting remain, together with big votes in favour in London and Scotland so in my opinion the panel is perfectly targeted at the audience remain need to win over
6m voters London and Scotland 24m voters the rest
Isn't it 6m London, 6m Scotland, so 12m (one third of the total) between them?
The population and the voting electorate are different.
At the last election roughly 6m Scots and Londoners combined voted.
Roughly four times that number voted in the remainder of England and Wales.
London and Scotland generate an enormous amount of conversation for a relatively small proportion of the population.
Yes but London and Scotland will almost certainly win the referendum for Remain if Remain do win by less than a landslide, the North, the South and the Midlands and Wales back Leave in almost every poll it is only the comfortable Remain lead in London and the huge Remain lead in Scotland which gives Remain a narrow lead across the UK as a whole
What is your central projection and MOE?
52% Remain 48% Leave, MOE 2% either way
So within MOE it could be 50/50?
Indeed
So then we're down to points of a percentage... Something like REMAIN 50.4% and LEAVE 50.6% not out of the question... So LEAVE could just pip it?
I think in that case, there probably would be eyebrows raised at the counting...
Well presumably the whole country could go to a recount or two? We might still be counting at Christmas!
Apparently there is no provision for a national recount at all - just Judicial Review!
If Trump does have a 10% chance of not becoming the GOP nominee (as per betfair), then Cruz is very well positioned. He must make up at least 10% of that 10%, surely?
The convention in Cleveland is going to be packed with delegates sympathetic to him.
In the absence of decent liquidity @ >100/1 on the GOP market, I've taken what I can get @ 999/1 on the main POTUS market.
The talk on twitter was about paying him to drop out. Who could afford the nomination? It sounds like we're talking about the range of 0.25 to 2 billion dollars.
The Final Wembley debate will not be as easy a win for leave as their ITV one was - Boris, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom are up against a more formidable line up of Sadiq Khan, Francis O'Grady and Ruth Davidson. It will be very interesting but I think Sadiq Khan will get much the better of Boris. However, as with everything in this campaign only a few more days to 'put up' with it
I would have thought that Remain would try to get someone in who might plausibly be thought to speak for middle England.
The vote will be won by labour voting remain, together with big votes in favour in London and Scotland so in my opinion the panel is perfectly targeted at the audience remain need to win over
6m voters London and Scotland 24m voters the rest
Isn't it 6m London, 6m Scotland, so 12m (one third of the total) between them?
The population and the voting electorate are different.
At the last election roughly 6m Scots and Londoners combined voted.
Roughly four times that number voted in the remainder of England and Wales.
London and Scotland generate an enormous amount of conversation for a relatively small proportion of the population.
Yes but London and Scotland will almost certainly win the referendum for Remain if Remain do win by less than a landslide, the North, the South and the Midlands and Wales back Leave in almost every poll it is only the comfortable Remain lead in London and the huge Remain lead in Scotland which gives Remain a narrow lead across the UK as a whole
What is your central projection and MOE?
52% Remain 48% Leave, MOE 2% either way
So within MOE it could be 50/50?
Indeed
So then we're down to points of a percentage... Something like REMAIN 50.4% and LEAVE 50.6% not out of the question... So LEAVE could just pip it?
I think in that case, there probably would be eyebrows raised at the counting...
Well presumably the whole country could go to a recount or two? We might still be counting at Christmas!
Apparently there is no provision for a national recount at all - just Judicial Review!
Boris coming out in favour of an amnesty for illegal immigrants is a bit of a gamble. Doesn't that give plenty more an incentive to try to get here?
Furthermore, a vote to leave the EU could be the starting gun for more immigration. Many in the EU might see the next year or so as the last chance to get into Britain. Of course, the Remain campaign can't really make this argument as it would acknowledge that in addition to those who have already come to Britain, there will be more contemplating making the move.
Anecdote alert: I was surprised to hear from a friend of mine last week that if it is Brexit, he will change his nationality to German (I think he was born when his father was serving in the BAOR). His work takes him all over Europe and he needs convenient travel. Presumably he would then count as a German "immigrant"?
Isn't it 6m London, 6m Scotland, so 12m (one third of the total) between them?
The population and the voting electorate are different.
At the last election roughly 6m Scots and Londoners combined voted.
Roughly four times that number voted in the remainder of England and Wales.
London and Scotland generate an enormous amount of conversation for a relatively small proportion of the population.
Yes but London and Scotland will almost certainly win the referendum for Remain if Remain do win by less than a landslide, the North, the South and the Midlands and Wales back Leave in almost every poll it is only the comfortable Remain lead in London and the huge Remain lead in Scotland which gives Remain a narrow lead across the UK as a whole
What is your central projection and MOE?
52% Remain 48% Leave, MOE 2% either way
So within MOE it could be 50/50?
Indeed
So then we're down to points of a percentage... Something like REMAIN 50.4% and LEAVE 50.6% not out of the question... So LEAVE could just pip it?
I think in that case, there probably would be eyebrows raised at the counting...
Well presumably the whole country could go to a recount or two? We might still be counting at Christmas!
Apparently there is no provision for a national recount at all - just Judicial Review!
The outcome of the referendum has no legal consequences. Parliament can theoretically ignore the outcome or accept it as it sees fit. So if the outcome is messy or in doubt, the only place where the consequences could be decided would by in Parliament. Judicial Review would be pointless because that similarly would have no consequences.
I think we just have fundamentally different world views.
I see Britain as an indivisible part of Europe. This is not to say that Europe is a homogenised mass, or that we do not represent a distinct strand of its civilisation but we are very much part of it and have played a crucial role over many centuries in making Europe as a whole what it is today. This is a completely different historical experience from the US.
Both language and utterly different views on the role of the state and law will always set us apart from the rest of Europe. I have spent much of my life living and working outside of the UK and find the attitude of much of Europe to the role of the state in people's eyes to be utterly alien.
Do UK attitudes to the NHS give you any reason to doubt your conclusions?
No and why should they. The NHS is unique (and the worse for it). Most European countries and most first world countries around the world have health schemes which, whilst free at the point of delivery are very different in their organisation and funding compared to the NHS.
Does it not show an attitude to the role of the state in the UK which is, to use your word, alien to your values?
No. It simply shows people are unaware of the systems in place in other countries and of how much better they are than our own. People like you do exactly what you just did which is to try and make the comparison with the US healthcare system as if that is the only other alternative. That is why people are so fond of the NHS. Show them how much better the health systems are in almost the whole of the rest of the first world and they would soon start to rethink their views towards the NHS.
As I have said for years on here it is the one area where we could learn from the rest of Europe but fail to do so.
The Final Wembley debate will not be as easy a win for leave as their ITV one was - Boris, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom are up against a more formidable line up of Sadiq Khan, Francis O'Grady and Ruth Davidson. It will be very interesting but I think Sadiq Khan will get much the better of Boris. However, as with everything in this campaign only a few more days to 'put up' with it
I would have thought that Remain would try to get someone in who might plausibly be thought to speak for middle England.
The vote will be won by labour voting remain, together with big votes in favour in London and Scotland so in my opinion the panel is perfectly targeted at the audience remain need to win over
6m voters London and Scotland 24m voters the rest
Isn't it 6m London, 6m Scotland, so 12m (one third of the total) between them?
The population and the voting electorate are different.
At the last election roughly 6m Scots and Londoners combined voted.
Roughly four times that number voted in the remainder of England and Wales.
London and Scotland generate an enormous amount of conversation for a relatively small proportion of the population.
Yes but London and Scotland will almost certainly win the referendum for Remain if Remain do win by less than a landslide, the North, the South and the Midlands and Wales back Leave in almost every poll it is only the comfortable Remain lead in London and the huge Remain lead in Scotland which gives Remain a narrow lead across the UK as a whole
What is your central projection and MOE?
52% Remain 48% Leave, MOE 2% either way
So within MOE it could be 50/50?
Indeed
So then we're down to points of a percentage... Something like REMAIN 50.4% and LEAVE 50.6% not out of the question... So LEAVE could just pip it?
I think in that case, there probably would be eyebrows raised at the counting...
Well presumably the whole country could go to a recount or two? We might still be counting at Christmas!
Regardless of how close it is, if the result sums up to over a hundred per cent, we're definitely recounting!
Boris coming out in favour of an amnesty for illegal immigrants is a bit of a gamble. Doesn't that give plenty more an incentive to try to get here?
Furthermore, a vote to leave the EU could be the starting gun for more immigration. Many in the EU might see the next year or so as the last chance to get into Britain. Of course, the Remain campaign can't really make this argument as it would acknowledge that in addition to those who have already come to Britain, there will be more contemplating making the move.
Anecdote alert: I was surprised to hear from a friend of mine last week that if it is Brexit, he will change his nationality to German (I think he was born when his father was serving in the BAOR). His work takes him all over Europe and he needs convenient travel. Presumably he would then count as a German "immigrant"?
Free Movement = Unlimited (Immigration + Emigration)
As you say. The issue (and I'm only picking on Poles because the numbers are easier to dig up) is that there ~6,000 Brits in Poland, and around 800k Poles in Britain.
What's depressed me most about the campaign is that Remain doesn't want to talk about immigration and Leave won't talk about the nuances of immigration. It's just Racist! vs Be Afraid!
There's nothing wrong with immigration. We've been welcoming people here for centuries, beginning with the Hugenots in the 18th century.
( There was a lovely radio 4 program a couple of years ago about the long tradition of Liverpool girls marrying Chinese mariners (they were seen as more reliable and faithful than the local men).
Our problem is the pace of change and the rate of increase. There is no reason to believe Cameron's measures will be effective.
That means we will have around 4 million extra people (plus the natural growth in the population) by 2030. Remain just won't engage with that. It will require welfare reform, planning reform, health reform. None of that is on the agenda.
Hence...depression.
And about 750,000 UK migrants in Spain.
Oh, my bad - we call them expats, don't we?
You're tilting at the wrong windmill, Don Quixote. I imagine the Spanish might have something to say if those 'ex-pats' arrived within the space of 30 months, instead of the last fifty years.
I strongly doubt the Spanish will want rid of our migrants there.
Well, it's just a classic case of misreading of the argument, whether that's deliberate or unconscious. Some people just want to return the argument to questions of racism because that's where they feel comfortable.
Everyone with a brain is aware of the British diaspora. I'm feeling lazy this afternoon so I can't be arsed to go further than Wikipedia. There are apparently 300k registered British-Born people in Spain, down by ~100k from 2012, which, based on the figures quoted is an increase of about 14k p.a. since 2001. That doesn't gibe with another figure of 760k Brits in Spain, but tbh, we don't need consistency at this point.
Net immigration to the UK in the last three years is 855k. In the last five, 1.2 million. In the last ten, 2.4-2.6 million. That's the issue for me. It's a hell of a lot, and that's being kind. If you just take gross immigration, the cultural impact is a lot stronger.
The party would never have survived if he made Leader. Ken Clarke is a deluded europhile that would have taken us into the Euro and still wants us to join.
Isn't it 6m London, 6m Scotland, so 12m (one third of the total) between them?
The population and the voting electorate are different.
At the last election roughly 6m Scots and Londoners combined voted.
Roughly four times that number voted in the remainder of England and Wales.
London and Scotland generate an enormous amount of conversation for a relatively small proportion of the population.
Yes but London and Scotland will almost certainly win the referendum for Remain if Remain do win by less than a landslide, the North, the South and the Midlands and Wales back Leave in almost every poll it is only the comfortable Remain lead in London and the huge Remain lead in Scotland which gives Remain a narrow lead across the UK as a whole
What is your central projection and MOE?
52% Remain 48% Leave, MOE 2% either way
So within MOE it could be 50/50?
Indeed
So then we're down to points of a percentage... Something like REMAIN 50.4% and LEAVE 50.6% not out of the question... So LEAVE could just pip it?
I think in that case, there probably would be eyebrows raised at the counting...
Well presumably the whole country could go to a recount or two? We might still be counting at Christmas!
Apparently there is no provision for a national recount at all - just Judicial Review!
The outcome of the referendum has no legal consequences. Parliament can theoretically ignore the outcome or accept it as it sees fit. So if the outcome is messy or in doubt, the only place where the consequences could be decided would by in Parliament. Judicial Review would be pointless because that similarly would have no consequences.
I understand that - but apparently there is provision for Judicial Review.
I think we just have fundamentally different world views.
I see Britain as an indivisible part of Europe. This is not to say that Europe is a homogenised mass, or that we do not represent a distinct strand of its civilisation but we are very much part of it and have played a crucial role over many centuries in making Europe as a whole what it is today. This is a completely different historical experience from the US.
Both language and utterly different views on the role of the state and law will always set us apart from the rest of Europe. I have spent much of my life living and working outside of the UK and find the attitude of much of Europe to the role of the state in people's eyes to be utterly alien.
Do UK attitudes to the NHS give you any reason to doubt your conclusions?
No and why should they. The NHS is unique (and the worse for it). Most European countries and most first world countries around the world have health schemes which, whilst free at the point of delivery are very different in their organisation and funding compared to the NHS.
Does it not show an attitude to the role of the state in the UK which is, to use your word, alien to your values?
No. It simply shows people are unaware of the systems in place in other countries and of how much better they are than our own. People like you do exactly what you just did which is to try and make the comparison with the US healthcare system as if that is the only other alternative. That is why people are so fond of the NHS. Show them how much better the health systems are in almost the whole of the rest of the first world and they would soon start to rethink their views towards the NHS.
As I have said for years on here it is the one area where we could learn from the rest of Europe but fail to do so.
I made no comparison with the US. My point was that the attitudes that you find alien in other Europeans about the role of the state are also to be found amongst your own countrymen.
Boris coming out in favour of an amnesty for illegal immigrants is a bit of a gamble. Doesn't that give plenty more an incentive to try to get here?
Furthermore, a vote to leave the EU could be the starting gun for more immigration. Many in the EU might see the next year or so as the last chance to get into Britain. Of course, the Remain campaign can't really make this argument as it would acknowledge that in addition to those who have already come to Britain, there will be more contemplating making the move.
Anecdote alert: I was surprised to hear from a friend of mine last week that if it is Brexit, he will change his nationality to German (I think he was born when his father was serving in the BAOR). His work takes him all over Europe and he needs convenient travel. Presumably he would then count as a German "immigrant"?
Children born to forces parents in Germany and Cyprus in particular, do show up in the figures as immigrants.
Dual passports are the way to go. Not all countries allow it, but we do.
Trump: "I don't care what the GOP does. I'm the insurgent, the outsider... I'm working for you, not for them... Clinton is totally controlled by countries which are horrible to gays, horrible to women..."
I'd like LEAVE to win for only one thing; to give TSE a kick in the ball's that would shut his crowing about his marvelous PM and Chancellor, and perhaps make him shut up for a while.
Impossible to shut him up, he is in his Sion Simon phase of cheerleading for Osborne.
Free Movement = Unlimited (Immigration + Emigration)
As you say. The issue (and I'm only picking on Poles because the numbers are easier to dig up) is that there ~6,000 Brits in Poland, and around 800k Poles in Britain.
What's depressed me most about the campaign is that Remain doesn't want to talk about immigration and Leave won't talk about the nuances of immigration. It's just Racist! vs Be Afraid!
There's nothing wrong with immigration. We've been welcoming people here for centuries, beginning with the Hugenots in the 18th century.
( There was a lovely radio 4 program a couple of years ago about the long tradition of Liverpool girls marrying Chinese mariners (they were seen as more reliable and faithful than the local men).
Our problem is the pace of change and the rate of increase. There is no reason to believe Cameron's measures will be effective.
Hence...depression.
And about 750,000 UK migrants in Spain.
Oh, my bad - we call them expats, don't we?
You're tilting at the wrong windmill, Don Quixote. I imagine the Spanish might have something to say if those 'ex-pats' arrived within the space of 30 months, instead of the last fifty years.
I strongly doubt the Spanish will want rid of our migrants there.
Well, it's just a classic case of misreading of the argument, whether that's deliberate or unconscious. Some people just want to return the argument to questions of racism because that's where they feel comfortable.
Everyone with a brain is aware of the British diaspora. I'm feeling lazy this afternoon so I can't be arsed to go further than Wikipedia. There are apparently 300k registered British-Born people in Spain, down by ~100k from 2012, which, based on the figures quoted is an increase of about 14k p.a. since 2001. That doesn't gibe with another figure of 760k Brits in Spain, but tbh, we don't need consistency at this point.
Net immigration to the UK in the last three years is 855k. In the last five, 1.2 million. In the last ten, 2.4-2.6 million. That's the issue for me. It's a hell of a lot, and that's being kind. If you just take gross immigration, the cultural impact is a lot stronger.
If you look at diaspora, there are over a million Romanians in Italy, and 800 000 in Spain. Romanians see themselves as a Latin culture.
I suspect that the number of Brits in Spain permanently is much less than those there part of the year.
I watched Corbyn this morning and I think he made a good point...admittedly it was difficult to pick up amongst the waffling and the mumbling. The point he made was that it isn't the fault on immigrants that the NHS is struggling and that classrooms are overcrowded...it's because of government cutbacks. I live in rural Dorset where there aren't the sorts of immigration levels that are APPARENTLY causing concerns elsewhere but we still have problems with the local surgeries and over-crowded schools, and cuts to rural bus services and libraries closing - it's not caused by money being diverted away to immigrants it's down to George Osborne slashing local government funding.
Free Movement = Unlimited (Immigration + Emigration)
As you say. The issue (and I'm only picking on Poles because the numbers are easier to dig up) is that there ~6,000 Brits in Poland, and around 800k Poles in Britain.
What's depressed me most about the campaign is that Remain doesn't want to talk about immigration and Leave won't talk about the nuances of immigration. It's just Racist! vs Be Afraid!
There's nothing wrong with immigration. We've been welcoming people here for centuries, beginning with the Hugenots in the 18th century.
( There was a lovely radio 4 program a couple of years ago about the long tradition of Liverpool girls marrying Chinese mariners (they were seen as more reliable and faithful than the local men).
Our problem is the pace of change and the rate of increase. There is no reason to believe Cameron's measures will be effective.
Hence...depression.
And about 750,000 UK migrants in Spain.
Oh, my bad - we call them expats, don't we?
You're tilting at the wrong windmill, Don Quixote. I imagine the Spanish might have something to say if those 'ex-pats' arrived within the space of 30 months, instead of the last fifty years.
I strongly doubt the Spanish will want rid of our migrants there.
Well, it's just a classic case of misreading of the argument, whether that's deliberate or unconscious. Some people just want to return the argument to questions of racism because that's where they feel comfortable.
Net immigration to the UK in the last three years is 855k. In the last five, 1.2 million. In the last ten, 2.4-2.6 million. That's the issue for me. It's a hell of a lot, and that's being kind. If you just take gross immigration, the cultural impact is a lot stronger.
If you look at diaspora, there are over a million Romanians in Italy, and 800 000 in Spain. Romanians see themselves as a Latin culture.
I suspect that the number of Brits in Spain permanently is much less than those there part of the year.
Duh. Thanks fox. That probably accounts for the difference - little old ladies overwintering in Benidorm.
I should add - the current immigration figures flatter to deceive, as it dropped considerably during the Great Recession. The current run rate is 1 million every three years, almost exactly.
Another blue-sky fudge idea to solve the migration problem: How about giving countries some flexibility in when to apply the 7 year restriction on free movement when new members join. Either straight away, or after a year if the volume of migration proves to be a problem. As an exception, we could be given the chance to apply the restrictions we didn't make use of in 2004 to run for the next 7 years.
I watched Corbyn this morning and I think he made a good point...admittedly it was difficult to pick up amongst the waffling and the mumbling. The point he made was that it isn't the fault on immigrants that the NHS is struggling and that classrooms are overcrowded...it's because of government cutbacks. I live in rural Dorset where there aren't the sorts of immigration levels that are APPARENTLY causing concerns elsewhere but we still have problems with the local surgeries and over-crowded schools, and cuts to rural bus services and libraries closing - it's not caused by money being diverted away to immigrants it's down to George Osborne slashing local government funding.
Local government would have been hit hard no matter who won - there are not many votes in promising to go easy on local government, even when there are, as you point out, impacts people actually care about, that's why it has been hit so hard, even considering the waste that was there.
Another blue-sky fudge idea to solve the migration problem: How about giving countries some flexibility in when to apply the 7 year restriction on free movement when new members join. Either straight away, or after a year if the volume of migration proves to be a problem. As an exception, we could be given the chance to apply the restrictions we didn't make use of in 2004 to run for the next 7 years.
The EU could have resolved this by having a stratified policy over free movement, by effectively splitting Shengen into three or four tiers, where free movement is permitted but only available at your current national tier. So you can freely move between countries of similar income levels.
This would have effectively killed the main driver between mass movement while in the long term allowing true free movement (assuming all countries eventually move to similar income levels).
"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe."
He may be standing down as an MP but you can bet anything he will never be off the TV because every media outlet will have his number on speed dial and will constantly be looking for "interviews." He is also writing his memoirs, which will make War and Peace look like a short pamphlet!
Another blue-sky fudge idea to solve the migration problem: How about giving countries some flexibility in when to apply the 7 year restriction on free movement when new members join. Either straight away, or after a year if the volume of migration proves to be a problem. As an exception, we could be given the chance to apply the restrictions we didn't make use of in 2004 to run for the next 7 years.
The EU could have resolved this by having a stratified policy over free movement, by effectively splitting Shengen into three or four tiers, where free movement is permitted but only available at your current national tier. So you can freely move between countries of similar income levels.
This would have effectively killed the main driver between mass movement while in the long term allowing true free movement (assuming all countries eventually move to similar income levels).
I rather like that idea in principle. Not sure how it would work in practice .
It was very sad to see how the recent event was so politised by certain people in such a sick, twisted way. Osborne's recent remarks is the end of him.
That seems unlikely - despite his EU views not being in vogue now, he has served his party for a very long time and in some very senior positions, I am sure he will be missed.
I'm just sad as I was wondering if in the event of a Leave win he might be persuaded to stand for the LDs in 2020, just to troll those who like to say that a man who will have been a Tory MP for 50 years is not a Tory.
I watched Corbyn this morning and I think he made a good point...admittedly it was difficult to pick up amongst the waffling and the mumbling. The point he made was that it isn't the fault on immigrants that the NHS is struggling and that classrooms are overcrowded...it's because of government cutbacks. I live in rural Dorset where there aren't the sorts of immigration levels that are APPARENTLY causing concerns elsewhere but we still have problems with the local surgeries and over-crowded schools, and cuts to rural bus services and libraries closing - it's not caused by money being diverted away to immigrants it's down to George Osborne slashing local government funding.
Some degree of realism as to what Labour does when in power can be garnered from Wales.
Spending per pupil in Wales == 5526 pounds per pupil per year
Spending per pupil in England == 6130 per pupil per year (604 pounds more).
The Welsh Government had been under-funding Welsh pupils compared to their English counterparts for well ***over a decade***.
That is why Wales is at the bottom of the Home Countries in the educational league tables.
That seems unlikely - despite his EU views not being in vogue now, he has served his party for a very long time and in some very senior positions, I am sure he will be missed.
I'm just sad as I was wondering if in the event of a Leave win he might be persuaded to stand for the LDs in 2020, just to troll those who like to say that a man who will have been a Tory MP for 50 years is not a Tory.
Apart from being pro-EU, Clarke has not been particularly Liberal. He is a Tory, but clearly a Heathite rather than a Thatcherite. Arguably he has been the only competent CoE of recent decades. I am not sure that he would have been as good as a PM, it is a different skillset.
Firstly many thanks for all the kind messages over the past weeks that have been passed onto me. I'm home now but a tad frail but uncommonly pleased to be in a position to be frail and not more deceased than one of Roger's political forecasts.
I'll be lurking for a few months (PB recuperative therapy I'm telling Mrs JackW and the quacks) so play nicely or the vacant Auchentennach dungeons will become available for miscreants and of course LibDems of any shade ....
Cheers for now.
I hope you recuperate well. And, any chance of an election eve forecast?
People are hurling abuse at the Remain street stall on a high street close to where I live.
The state of UK politics after the referendum is going to be very interesting.
I don't know how the country comes back together after this? That's why there has to be a "lancing" of the boil, around which we can all unite? Perhaps Cameron and Osborne being removed from Downing St. will be the thing that brings us all back together?
It won't come back together. For a start I would expect a continuation of the drop in turnout at General Elections as more and more people wonder why bother voting for MPs when so much is now decided and controlled from the EU. Disillusionment with the main parties and a lack of any viable alternative will also play a big part. I see the whole political climate becoming more fractured and more extreme if Remain win.
I myself have wondered if I will bother to turnout at elections if Remain win this.
I have spent my whole life advocating people vote. I use social media to urge this before every election of any type and always use the same formula - I don't care who you vote for just go out and vote.
If Remain win on Thursday then I am very doubtful if I will bother voting in any future general elections and would actively campaign to persuade people not to. It will simply perpetuate the myth that we have any significant control over our legislature.
It would be one up side if right wingers responded to a loss by abandoning politics. Then maybe we could play a positive role in Europe without their obstructionism.
People are hurling abuse at the Remain street stall on a high street close to where I live.
The state of UK politics after the referendum is going to be very interesting.
I don't know how the country comes back together after this? That's why there has to be a "lancing" of the boil, around which we can all unite? Perhaps Cameron and Osborne being removed from Downing St. will be the thing that brings us all back together?
It won't come back together. For a start I would expect a continuation of the drop in turnout at General Elections as more and more people wonder why bother voting for MPs when so much is now decided and controlled from the EU. Disillusionment with the main parties and a lack of any viable alternative will also play a big part. I see the whole political climate becoming more fractured and more extreme if Remain win.
I myself have wondered if I will bother to turnout at elections if Remain win this.
I have spent my whole life advocating people vote. I use social media to urge this before every election of any type and always use the same formula - I don't care who you vote for just go out and vote.
If Remain win on Thursday then I am very doubtful if I will bother voting in any future general elections and would actively campaign to persuade people not to. It will simply perpetuate the myth that we have any significant control over our legislature.
It would be one up side if right wingers responded to a loss by abandoning politics. Then maybe we could play a positive role in Europe without their obstructionism.
People are hurling abuse at the Remain street stall on a high street close to where I live.
The state of UK politics after the referendum is going to be very interesting.
I don't know how the country comes back together after this? That's why there has to be a "lancing" of the boil, around which we can all unite? Perhaps Cameron and Osborne being removed from Downing St. will be the thing that brings us all back together?
It won't come back together. For a start I would expect a continuation of the drop in turnout at General Elections as more and more people wonder why bother voting for MPs when so much is now decided and controlled from the EU. Disillusionment with the main parties and a lack of any viable alternative will also play a big part. I see the whole political climate becoming more fractured and more extreme if Remain win.
I myself have wondered if I will bother to turnout at elections if Remain win this.
I have spent my whole life advocating people vote. I use social media to urge this before every election of any type and always use the same formula - I don't care who you vote for just go out and vote.
If Remain win on Thursday then I am very doubtful if I will bother voting in any future general elections and would actively campaign to persuade people not to. It will simply perpetuate the myth that we have any significant control over our legislature.
It would be one up side if right wingers responded to a loss by abandoning politics. Then maybe we could play a positive role in Europe without their obstructionism.
Then we can scorn you as you continue to fail.
I don't care about scorn as long as it doesn't have any influence.
People are hurling abuse at the Remain street stall on a high street close to where I live.
The state of UK politics after the referendum is going to be very interesting.
I don't know how the country comes back together after this? That's why there has to be a "lancing" of the boil, around which we can all unite? Perhaps Cameron and Osborne being removed from Downing St. will be the thing that brings us all back together?
It won't come back together. For a start I would expect a continuation of the drop in turnout at General Elections as more and more people wonder why bother voting for MPs when so much is now decided and controlled from the EU. Disillusionment with the main parties and a lack of any viable alternative will also play a big part. I see the whole political climate becoming more fractured and more extreme if Remain win.
I myself have wondered if I will bother to turnout at elections if Remain win this.
I have spent my whole life advocating people vote. I use social media to urge this before every election of any type and always use the same formula - I don't care who you vote for just go out and vote.
If Remain win on Thursday then I am very doubtful if I will bother voting in any future general elections and would actively campaign to persuade people not to. It will simply perpetuate the myth that we have any significant control over our legislature.
It would be one up side if right wingers responded to a loss by abandoning politics. Then maybe we could play a positive role in Europe without their obstructionism.
Then we can scorn you as you continue to fail.
I don't care about scorn as long as it doesn't have any influence.
Bet you do. Bet you'd squeal like a stuck pig if we started to call you names. You are a special little snowflake really, aren't you?
Free Movement = Unlimited (Immigration + Emigration)
As you say. The issue (and I'm only picking on Poles because the numbers are easier to dig up) is that there ~6,000 Brits in Poland, and around 800k Poles in Britain.
What's depressed me most about the campaign is that Remain doesn't want to talk about immigration and Leave won't talk about the nuances of immigration. It's just Racist! vs Be Afraid!
There's nothing wrong with immigration. We've been welcoming people here for centuries, beginning with the Hugenots in the 18th century.
( There was a lovely radio 4 program a couple of years ago about the long tradition of Liverpool girls marrying Chinese mariners (they were seen as more reliable and faithful than the local men).
Our problem is the pace of change and the rate of increase. There is no reason to believe Cameron's measures will be effective.
That means we will have around 4 million extra people (plus the natural growth in the population) by 2030. Remain just won't engage with that. It will require welfare reform, planning reform, health reform. None of that is on the agenda.
Hence...depression.
And about 750,000 UK migrants in Spain.
Oh, my bad - we call them expats, don't we?
You're tilting at the wrong windmill, Don Quixote. I imagine the Spanish might have something to say if those 'ex-pats' arrived within the space of 30 months, instead of the last fifty years.
If I remember correctly, Spain has seen the biggest percentage increase in population through immigration of any country in the EU in my last 25 years.
Comments
I also think you're generalising about attitudes to the role of the state. By and large, the more northern countries (which I think is here you've spent most time?) are big state places, but that's by no means the case everywhere, and there's plenty of scope for a small-state Britain to press its case, if that's what we wanted (not me, obviously). I'm not sure Britain has ever really come to a settled view about it, anyway - on the whole, British political culture doesn't do consistent thinking.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1307392/political-heavyweight-ken-clarke-to-quit-politics-after-50-years-in-parliament/
"Maybe if they offered me $5 billion."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppa09GbfppQ
Presumably he would then count as a German "immigrant"?
What the difference between allowing free movement between Bratislava and London and Mogadishu and London?
Clinton 51
Trump 49
As I have said for years on here it is the one area where we could learn from the rest of Europe but fail to do so.
Everyone with a brain is aware of the British diaspora. I'm feeling lazy this afternoon so I can't be arsed to go further than Wikipedia. There are apparently 300k registered British-Born people in Spain, down by ~100k from 2012, which, based on the figures quoted is an increase of about 14k p.a. since 2001. That doesn't gibe with another figure of 760k Brits in Spain, but tbh, we don't need consistency at this point.
Net immigration to the UK in the last three years is 855k. In the last five, 1.2 million. In the last ten, 2.4-2.6 million. That's the issue for me. It's a hell of a lot, and that's being kind. If you just take gross immigration, the cultural impact is a lot stronger.
I understand that - but apparently there is provision for Judicial Review.
Dual passports are the way to go. Not all countries allow it, but we do.
"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe."
I suspect that the number of Brits in Spain permanently is much less than those there part of the year.
I should add - the current immigration figures flatter to deceive, as it dropped considerably during the Great Recession. The current run rate is 1 million every three years, almost exactly.
This would have effectively killed the main driver between mass movement while in the long term allowing true free movement (assuming all countries eventually move to similar income levels).
I'm just sad as I was wondering if in the event of a Leave win he might be persuaded to stand for the LDs in 2020, just to troll those who like to say that a man who will have been a Tory MP for 50 years is not a Tory.
@politicshome: NEW: Nigel Farage: 'Breaking Point' poster wouldn't cause such a row without Jo Cox's death https://t.co/dUKYgSCZM3 https://t.co/xtXx0aI3sn
Spending per pupil in Wales == 5526 pounds per pupil per year
Spending per pupil in England == 6130 per pupil per year (604 pounds more).
The Welsh Government had been under-funding Welsh pupils compared to their English counterparts for well ***over a decade***.
That is why Wales is at the bottom of the Home Countries in the educational league tables.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
You are a special little snowflake really, aren't you?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/19061601.pdf