The clever and the smart thinking that even discussing immigration concerns with racists is demeaning. So they don't. That's the way to win minds.
Edit: And lose referenda
Unfortunately I agree with this. I have said repeatedly that REMAIN's approach of stacking experts and ignoring people's concerns (migration, NHS et al) was methodologically flawed.
Why is the Remain campaign so off point? I really don't understand it.
It's mostly run by people who benefit from the EU who barely even know people who don't.
The remain campaign has Osbournes dabs all over it. Thats a recipe for disaster.
The Turkey narrative for leave is just so obvious, I really don't understand how remain failed to have well worked out response. So sloppy.
It's one of those difficult things to refute, as Turkey is officially going through the accession process. It's a thing. You can recite the mantra (as I've done) of Erdogan, Cyprus, France, Germany etc as being the reasons why it's not going to happen. However, the official position of HMG is that it supports Turkish accession to the EU.
I think the Leave leaflet is wholly disingenuous. But it's still hard to refute.
I'm with Mr Tyndall; both campaigns have been poor (Remain being worse by a country mile though), and I'm not even talking about Farage's odious efforts on the sidelines.
I think it might be better if Cameron had said not in our lifetimes instead of the ridiculous "year 3000" people are not stupid.
In this campaign he only does hyperbole, and yes people have cracked on to it.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
The BBC continually referring to Jo Cox as a "pro-EU MP" so bloody irritating. I see all the left-wing commentariat are just dying to let rip, given what we now know about Thomas Mair.
Call me old-fashioned but I'm not comfortable with this grief-fest. It's all getting very OTT.
Obviously Johnson thinks he's won - he's pitching as being loyal so Remainers can come together under a Leaver leader, knowing Cameron will announce himself when he goes, and he doesn't have to call on the man to go. It also subtly criticises Cameron with the talk of being confident of getting three figures to sign the letter, knowing that that does not sound great, since one would hope a leader with 330 MPs could get at least 100 to sign it.
Cameron's intv in Sat Times sounds like a man who thinks he's losing. I'm not taking any heart from such Kremlinology - we need to win.
Obviously Johnson thinks he's won - he's pitching as being loyal so Remainers can come together under a Leaver leader, knowing Cameron will announce himself when he goes, and he doesn't have to call on the man to go. It also subtly criticises Cameron with the talk of being confident of getting three figures to sign the letter, knowing that that does not sound great, since one would hope a leader with 330 MPs could get at least 100 to sign it.
Cameron's intv in Sat Times sounds like a man who thinks he's losing. I'm not taking any heart from such Kremlinology - we need to win.
The BBC continually referring to Jo Cox as a "pro-EU MP" so bloody irritating. I see all the left-wing commentariat are just dying to let rip, given what we now know about Thomas Mair.
Call me old-fashioned but I'm not comfortable with this grief-fest. It's all getting very OTT.
She's being deified. And the grief-fest is OTT. I've stopped watching Sky. It's occupying 80% of their coverage on Day 3. The Times has had about 40 articles about her so far.
After several days of endless M Ali coverage, I posted under a Fink article that I was glad it wasn't yet another hagiography - it prompted many others to agree.
I really don't understand this mindset in the media.
Obviously Johnson thinks he's won - he's pitching as being loyal so Remainers can come together under a Leaver leader, knowing Cameron will announce himself when he goes, and he doesn't have to call on the man to go. It also subtly criticises Cameron with the talk of being confident of getting three figures to sign the letter, knowing that that does not sound great, since one would hope a leader with 330 MPs could get at least 100 to sign it.
Hmm. That does make me question my "REMAIN has won" perception. Cameron sounding like a loser, Johnson sounding like a winner.
Whatever the truth, REMAIN have to do something very different in the last week. They should go on the Break up Britain with Brexit meme, and cobble together *some* kind of Vow on immigration. But Lord knows what.
This last week is going to be the most intense, politically, of my entire life. I doubt I will ever see anything like this again.
I'm back in Blighty Tuesday. Almost wish I was scheduled to stay in Calabria another fortnight.
When you vote leave - like me - you will have a soul in repose, knowing that you have done the right thing.
Obviously Johnson thinks he's won - he's pitching as being loyal so Remainers can come together under a Leaver leader, knowing Cameron will announce himself when he goes, and he doesn't have to call on the man to go. It also subtly criticises Cameron with the talk of being confident of getting three figures to sign the letter, knowing that that does not sound great, since one would hope a leader with 330 MPs could get at least 100 to sign it.
Hmm. That does make me question my "REMAIN has won" perception. Cameron sounding like a loser, Johnson sounding like a winner.
Whatever the truth, REMAIN have to do something very different in the last week. They should go on the Break up Britain with Brexit meme, and cobble together *some* kind of Vow on immigration. But Lord knows what.
This last week is going to be the most intense, politically, of my entire life. I doubt I will ever see anything like this again.
I'm back in Blighty Tuesday. Almost wish I was scheduled to stay in Calabria another fortnight.
It's pretty simple to me. He should be talking about the practical things HMG is going to do to help areas badly affected by immigration. It's not a nationwide problem. There are clearly areas where immigration has done harm. So target them.
He should be talking about how we're going to share the economic benefits. In simple, practical terms. What do we do about GPs? Schools? Housing? He should be showing that he's not going to let the UK be balkanised into Little Pakistan, Little Poland and so on.
I disagree about the Sindy/Brexit breakup the UK thing. If Scotland want independence, they should have it. Personally, I'd question their appetite for it, but I left Edinburgh three years ago.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Obviously Johnson thinks he's won - he's pitching as being loyal so Remainers can come together under a Leaver leader, knowing Cameron will announce himself when he goes, and he doesn't have to call on the man to go. It also subtly criticises Cameron with the talk of being confident of getting three figures to sign the letter, knowing that that does not sound great, since one would hope a leader with 330 MPs could get at least 100 to sign it.
Hmm. That does make me question my "REMAIN has won" perception. Cameron sounding like a loser, Johnson sounding like a winner.
Whatever the truth, REMAIN have to do something very different in the last week. They should go on the Break up Britain with Brexit meme, and cobble together *some* kind of Vow on immigration. But Lord knows what.
This last week is going to be the most intense, politically, of my entire life. I doubt I will ever see anything like this again.
I'm back in Blighty Tuesday. Almost wish I was scheduled to stay in Calabria another fortnight.
It's pretty simple to me. He should be talking about the practical things HMG is going to do to help areas badly affected by immigration. It's not a nationwide problem. There are clearly areas where immigration has done harm. So target them.
He should be talking about how we're going to share the economic benefits. In simple, practical terms. What do we do about GPs? Schools? Housing? He should be showing that he's not going to let the UK be balkanised into Little Pakistan, Little Poland and so on.
I disagree about the Sindy/Brexit breakup the UK thing. If Scotland want independence, they should have it. Personally, I'd question their appetite for it, but I left Edinburgh three years ago.
Just because he believes he has lost doesn't mean he has.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
They want us to Remain but only if we endorse the Project - they're fed up of us being half in.
I think it's an attempt by Johnson not to appear the complete shit that he is. He knows that if Leave win he will not be hailed a hero but the person who brought down the most successful Tory Leader since Thatcher.
Someone who has single handedly brought the Tory Party kicking and screaming into the 21st century. What's more unlike the minnows on the front bench -on both sides- side he's led from the front.
When he hands in his resignation he will be lauded and Johnson will be the fall guy and he knows it
Obviously Johnson thinks he's won - he's pitching as being loyal so Remainers can come together under a Leaver leader, knowing Cameron will announce himself when he goes, and he doesn't have to call on the man to go. It also subtly criticises Cameron with the talk of being confident of getting three figures to sign the letter, knowing that that does not sound great, since one would hope a leader with 330 MPs could get at least 100 to sign it.
Cameron's intv in Sat Times sounds like a man who thinks he's losing. I'm not taking any heart from such Kremlinology - we need to win.
Who are "we"? Please don't speak for me. Thanks.
Nobody could possibly speak for you.
Dribble, maybe. But not "speak" in the traditional sense of coherent argument.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Merkel probably offered as much as the French would allow
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Reading around, there's a view that the problem is the UK's health and welfare benefit system. Rather than try to fix our domestic issue, we've gone whinging to our European partners and asked them to bend the entire system out of kilter. That's hardly a call to arms for the rest of the EU.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Merkel probably offered as much as the French would allow
How about a look at the referendum in Norway to join the EU in 1994? After a long period of heated debate, the "no" side won with 52.2 per cent of the vote, on a turnout of 88.6 per cent.
Andrew Neil said on air many weeks ago at the start of the campaign, that a type of project fear was run by the YES group backed by the main party of govt, the top companies, great and the good etc etc and the end result was the public mocking the claims and voting to stay out.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Reading around, there's a view that the problem is the UK's health and welfare benefit system. Rather than try to fix our domestic issue, we've gone whinging to our European partners and asked them to bend the entire system out of kilter. That's hardly a call to arms for the rest of the EU.
This is the crux of the matter for me. If the Remain Tories were promising to radically change our welfare system (i.e. for everyone, not just EU immigrants), I'd be tempted to vote Remain. The problem with that, of course, is that Labour voters would vote to leave en masse. I'm not sure what the Labour Party itself would have done.
Pains me to say it but the English rugby team looks bloody good.
Excellent balance, very good and organised in defence and plenty of thrust in attack. They've also got their arrogance back under Eddie Jones. Us Celts despise that English rugby arrogance but it's part of what makes them good. They became too humble under Lancaster.
I always remember Robert Key - a quality county batsman - walking out to bat at the MCG in the Ashes when England were in the mire. Ricky Ponting, Adam Gilchrist, Justin Langer and Matthew Hayden - all genuine greats of the game - were surrounding the new batsman with Shane Warne ready to bowl and Hayden asked Key "what the fuck are you doing on the same field as us?"
It was cruel, arrogant and dismissive. All part of the Aussie 'mental disintegration' stategy. Key was walking back to the hutch moments later with his tail between his legs.
The English cricket press couldn't stand the Aussies because they kept getting slammed, but they were despising the same dismissive arrogance that made their rugby team great under Woodward.
This English team under Jones will be some side. And in a week when immigration is to the fore the Remain camp would be smart to point to 21 year old Maro Itoje. He is a superb player and a future England captain, one born in Camden to Nigerian parents. What a player he is going to become.
I think it's an attempt by Johnson not to appear the complete shit that he is. He knows that if Leave win he will not be hailed a hero but the person who brought down the most successful Tory Leader since Thatcher.
Someone who has single handedly brought the Tory Party kicking and screaming into the 21st century. What's more unlike the minnows on the front bench -on both sides- side he's led from the front.
"When he hands in his resignation he will be lauded and Johnson will be the fall guy and he knows it but the person who brought down the most successful Tory Leader since Thatcher"
How depressing it is to read that. How low is that bar, its touching my recently mown lan.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Merkel probably offered as much as the French would allow
Merkel does only what Merkel wants to do.
She cannot overrule Hollande, France is not Greece
I think the Out campaign should stop the lecturing on the politicization of the tragic murder of Jo Cox. If this was a Muslim attack then they wouldn't missed making an issue of it. The gutter press with their divisive jingoistic tone over the last months are nauseating with their faux grief. They have been reprehensible with countless lies and now think they can walk away scot free. Its been a daily dose of immigrant bashing without a thought of how immigrants must feel when they're labelled public enemy number 1. And if its a leave vote what will be the next group which is made a target for all this whipped up anger. Its utterly shameful.
"Leaving the EU would make Britain as insignificant as the island of Guernsey, France's economy minister Emmanuel Macron has said.
In an interview with Le Monde, Mr Macron said: "Leaving the EU would mean the 'Guernseyfication' of the UK, which would then be a little country on the world scale. It would isolate itself and become a trading post and arbitration place at Europe's border."
The French minister added that European Council would have to send "a very firm message and timetable" to the UK on the consequences of leaving the EU."
The French want us to leave, De Gaulle vetoed UK entry and an EU without the UK would shift towards the southern European nations and away from the north, leading to a more isolated Germany and a relatively more powerful France
If we're painting with broad strokes, Germany needs the UK. France absolutely does not. We're Cinderella to their Ugly Sister . It would be quite the coup de main for them if the UK left. It's probably the only thing that makes me pause for thought.
That is consistent with the polls, German voters overwhelmingly want the UK to vote Remain, French voters are almost 50 50
If they wanted us to Remain, why didn't they offer something sensible? Or was Cameron just telling them not to bother, he could wing it?
Merkel probably offered as much as the French would allow
Merkel does only what Merkel wants to do.
She cannot overrule Hollande, France is not Greece
Comments
Call me old-fashioned but I'm not comfortable with this grief-fest. It's all getting very OTT.
After several days of endless M Ali coverage, I posted under a Fink article that I was glad it wasn't yet another hagiography - it prompted many others to agree.
I really don't understand this mindset in the media.
He should be talking about how we're going to share the economic benefits. In simple, practical terms. What do we do about GPs? Schools? Housing? He should be showing that he's not going to let the UK be balkanised into Little Pakistan, Little Poland and so on.
I disagree about the Sindy/Brexit breakup the UK thing. If Scotland want independence, they should have it. Personally, I'd question their appetite for it, but I left Edinburgh three years ago.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
Someone who has single handedly brought the Tory Party kicking and screaming into the 21st century. What's more unlike the minnows on the front bench -on both sides- side he's led from the front.
When he hands in his resignation he will be lauded and Johnson will be the fall guy and he knows it
Dribble, maybe. But not "speak" in the traditional sense of coherent argument.
Excellent balance, very good and organised in defence and plenty of thrust in attack. They've also got their arrogance back under Eddie Jones. Us Celts despise that English rugby arrogance but it's part of what makes them good. They became too humble under Lancaster.
I always remember Robert Key - a quality county batsman - walking out to bat at the MCG in the Ashes when England were in the mire. Ricky Ponting, Adam Gilchrist, Justin Langer and Matthew Hayden - all genuine greats of the game - were surrounding the new batsman with Shane Warne ready to bowl and Hayden asked Key "what the fuck are you doing on the same field as us?"
It was cruel, arrogant and dismissive. All part of the Aussie 'mental disintegration' stategy. Key was walking back to the hutch moments later with his tail between his legs.
The English cricket press couldn't stand the Aussies because they kept getting slammed, but they were despising the same dismissive arrogance that made their rugby team great under Woodward.
This English team under Jones will be some side. And in a week when immigration is to the fore the Remain camp would be smart to point to 21 year old Maro Itoje. He is a superb player and a future England captain, one born in Camden to Nigerian parents. What a player he is going to become.