If that is the way he has been talking to the police for the last 24 hours I am amazed they haven't charged him with terrorism. It is as much a terrorist attack as anything else we have seen in Britain over the last decade.
If that is the way he has been talking to the police for the last 24 hours I'll be amazed if he'll be found fit to plead.
Indeed. The drop-in centre lady said he appeared to experiencing a *crisis* when he went in on Wednesday. He clearly knew then that he was losing his grip on reality. Tipping over the edge into something else is familiar to many of us, either from personal experience or seeing close friends do it.
I can't recall anyone saying anything so bizarre in court.
If that is the way he has been talking to the police for the last 24 hours I am amazed they haven't charged him with terrorism. It is as much a terrorist attack as anything else we have seen in Britain over the last decade.
If that is the way he has been talking to the police for the last 24 hours I'll be amazed if he'll be found fit to plead.
I guess it will depend on whether he has his underpants on his head and pencils up his nose because he is mad or because he wants to pretend he is mad to avoid the big push.
"People will see what they want to see but what will have happened is that a country has taken a democratic decision. It is not reputation which ultimately matters but substance. I think BTW that you have a pretty rosy picture of how Britain is see. Britain has not been known as Perfidious Albion for nothing".
It's surprising how much the reputation of a country does matter. It's a brand like everything else. Germany is a brand. Think what that means in terms of selling cars pharmaceutiicals or technology. 'GERMAN Technology' has a value which the brand GERMANY gives it The UK is a brand. Ask anyone in the fashion industry or the great service industries the cachet it gives you to be working within the UK brand. Surprising but true.
Try selling the very latest technology with 'made in YEMEN' or Pharmaceuticals 'made in The CONGO' or courture fashion 'made in TUNISIA' and you'll see the value of a brand.
'Farage's xenophobic BRITAIN' will do a very valuable brand no good at all.
I bow to your superior knowledge on branding. But branding is not the only value that matters and may not be the most important one. Substance matters. Britain has to be a country which its citizens are comfortable in. And part of that comfort will come from its citizens' exercise of their democratic vote. Democracy matters. Democracy in Britain matters. Britain is not just a product to be sold.
We have 459 MPs in favour of Remaining 180 for Leaving. Under our form of democracy that means we should Remain. This ad hoc approach to democracy suggests it's something of a moveable feast. If this is legitimate democracy then what does it say about the one we normally use?
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Get a grip Sean.
I'm entirely in control. I think the referendum was on a knife edge, but this will tip it to REMAIN by three or four points. My NoJam prediction was 56/44 REMAIN, that's probably wrong, but I reckon it could be 53/47
I reckon there are huge numbers of DKs, that are being uncounted. Yes 70% of people have decided, but there are millions who might say they are voting one way or another, but inside they are conflicted and could still be persuaded, so, in effect, they are DKs.
This will influence them. It will give nervous OUTs a reason to vote IN.
BTW I'm still OUT!
Tipping it by 3/4% would take it to about 50/50%.
I am wholly prepared to look an utter fool on Friday.
We should all be prepared to look like utter fools at most times.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Get a grip Sean.
I'm entirely in control. I think the referendum was on a knife edge, but this will tip it to REMAIN by three or four points. My NoJam prediction was 56/44 REMAIN, that's probably wrong, but I reckon it could be 53/47
I reckon there are huge numbers of DKs, that are being uncounted. Yes 70% of people have decided, but there are millions who might say they are voting one way or another, but inside they are conflicted and could still be persuaded, so, in effect, they are DKs.
This will influence them. It will give nervous OUTs a reason to vote IN.
BTW I'm still OUT!
So you think the Qrious post-murder poll trend is, what ...?
Their finding was the opposite: that it has turned Remainers into Don't Knows. Might be rubbish polling of course but it's curious. I do know some people saying they can't now be bothered with it all.
Qrious poll is worthless. It's not got published tables, it's not got a published methodology, it has no published track record and it is not a BPC member. It has absolutely nothing to commend it.
"The referendum rules do not provide for a national recount to be carried out in any circumstances.
Any request for a recount of votes will be at local count level and is for the Counting Officer to determine. We expect local recounts to be granted if a specific issue has been identified with the process in that counting area, rather than simply when the local totals are close.
The national referendum result is only subject to challenge by way of judicial review."
Some of my friends are full of apocalyptic visions if we leave. Armies of Faragists will be roaming the land, liberals/socialists/intellectuals will have to flee to the continent etc. Okay not quite but there is a sense of despair. My instinct is to get a grip, we're nowhere near that kind of nastiness. I actually fear a small remain win, particularly if England votes out and Scotland in by a big margin. If the final polls are near 50-50 that's highly possible. What I find odd is that the SNP seem ready to plead outrage if Scotland is taken out of the EU against its will when the whole Scottish campaign has been so muted. Hardly a sign that the issue is totemic north of the border.
Plenty of people talking about him being charged with "Terrorism", does such an offence even exist ?
The IRA were always charged as common criminals, in fact iirc the hunger strikes were in protest at this policy.
Murder is murder. Nothing more, nothing else. It's what the Lee Rigby killers were convicted of.
You can be detained under the terrorism act (2000) (say) without necessarily being charged with a terrorist offence at the end of the police investigation. IANAL but iirc it does give the police more time before they have to release the suspect.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
It's a weird thing. I believe it's firmly in Britain's interest to remain in the EU. I also think Leave campaigns on a false prospectus on immigration. Nevertheless I almost want Leave to win to show this doesn't have anything to do with anything
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Oh Sean. I'm not cross. Just disappointed.
Of course some people (doubtless mainly on Twitter) will say that this is down to the febrile nature of the referendum campaign. Of course some people are just (as they see it) cut out the middleman and claim that Farage killed Jo Cox (I can see it now 'just as surely as if he'd pulled the trigger himself').
But the sheer extremity of thought nullifies its value in my view. I cannot credit Cameron when he claimed that the EU had kept the peace. I like Donald Tusk, but didn't buy his worry that Brexit would lead to the end of Western Civilisation.
We've had people trying to play 'if you vote Leave, you're really a racist, don't kid yourself' for weeks - even had one this morning from Alastair. I can't buy an even more extreme argument than that.
British people are sensible and phlegmatic. I am sorry for Jo Cox and her family. But her murderers views and motivations are tangential to the referendum itself.
However, no one will think the less of you if you want to vote Remain. It's OK. Remainers are people too.
I'm still OUT.
I'm also trying to be objective.
I think Nick Palmer made a fair point, trying to say this nutters actions are linked to Leave, is like trying to link all muslims to ISIS and all Labour to Corbyn
Tommy Mair is no more representative of LEAVERs than Omar Mateen is representative of Muslims.
My reading of the polls - brave, I admit, and possibly idiotic - is that they are marginally overstating LEAVE because a lot of people are seizing the opportunity to give the powers-that-be the fright of their lives. And they are succeeding. This doesn't mean they will actually vote LEAVE, or even VOTE, but they are enjoying the thrill of transgression and rebellion, and seeing David Cameron in a sweat.
My gut feeling is that the result will be more decisive one way or the other than the polls suggest, even as much as 60-40. Either there'll be a tipping point and huge numbers of waverers will just decide to go for it on the day, or a huge number will tip the other way and recoil against Brexit.
The problem is that after this crime, any Remain win will be seen as questionable by some, and will keep the conspiracy theory industry in business for years.
Regarding the referendum count, does anyone know please when the first results are expected and from which areas? Is it likely to be Sunderland leading the field again? - Usually a smoother operation than one of their locally made Qashqais! If so, how indicative will Sunderland be of the country as a whole and therefore of the likely overall result? Are sufficient areas likely to declare in the early hours so as to enable us to know the basic REMAIN/LEAVE outcome by say 3.00 a.m., as was pretty much the case with last year's GE (unless you were Paddy Ashdown or Ed Balls)?
My understanding is that the count is by Council Area NOT by constituency so timings will vary significantly based upon the size of the area involved.
Q-if it is really this close will there be a recount???
I think you're right - judging by Ladbrokes' book on the highest voting areas for both REMAIN and LEAVE. These were certainly towns/cities, rather than Parliamentary constituencies as such, which rather threw me when I first saw them listed. That said, I assume the broadcasters have a good idea when and where the first "declarations" are likely, so as to ensure maximum dramatic effect by having live TV coverage in place.
"The referendum rules do not provide for a national recount to be carried out in any circumstances.
Any request for a recount of votes will be at local count level and is for the Counting Officer to determine. We expect local recounts to be granted if a specific issue has been identified with the process in that counting area, rather than simply when the local totals are close.
The national referendum result is only subject to challenge by way of judicial review."
The national referendum result is only subject to challenge by way of judicial review."
"People will see what they want to see but what will have happened is that a country has taken a democratic decision. It is not reputation which ultimately matters but substance. I think BTW that you have a pretty rosy picture of how Britain is see. Britain has not been known as Perfidious Albion for nothing".
It's surprising how much the reputation of a country does matter. It's a brand like everything else. Germany is a brand. Think what that means in terms of selling cars pharmaceutiicals or technology. 'GERMAN Technology' has a value which the brand GERMANY gives it The UK is a brand. Ask anyone in the fashion industry or the great service industries the cachet it gives you to be working within the UK brand. Surprising but true.
Try selling the very latest technology with 'made in YEMEN' or Pharmaceuticals 'made in The CONGO' or courture fashion 'made in TUNISIA' and you'll see the value of a brand.
'Farage's xenophobic BRITAIN' will do a very valuable brand no good at all.
I bow to your superior knowledge on branding. But branding is not the only value that matters and may not be the most important one. Substance matters. Britain has to be a country which its citizens are comfortable in. And part of that comfort will come from its citizens' exercise of their democratic vote. Democracy matters. Democracy in Britain matters. Britain is not just a product to be sold.
We have 459 MPs in favour of Remaining 180 for Leaving. Under our form of democracy that means we should Remain. This ad hoc approach to democracy suggests it's something of a moveable feast. If this is legitimate democracy then what does it say about the one we normally use?
"The referendum rules do not provide for a national recount to be carried out in any circumstances.
Any request for a recount of votes will be at local count level and is for the Counting Officer to determine. We expect local recounts to be granted if a specific issue has been identified with the process in that counting area, rather than simply when the local totals are close.
The national referendum result is only subject to challenge by way of judicial review."
The national referendum result is only subject to challenge by way of judicial review."
Oh that will be fun-:(
Seems highly likely to me in the current febrile atmosphere.
Mair's comments in court absolutely do not prove he is "insane". And someone can have mental health issues and be in full control of their actions. It would appear he held neo-nazi/extreme right beliefs. That has nothing to do with the Leave campaign (I don't think we can link Gisela Stuart and this guy for example), so I don't see why the Mail etc are playing down his nazi tendancies in favour of the mental health aspect? I don't see him being a neo-nazi having repercussions for leave.
For example, I may be strongly for remain but my father is very strongly for leave. I'm not going to make any connection between his viewpoint and some hideous neo-nazi. Neither is anyone who personally knows Leavers (which is everyone). It won't wash.
What I am concerned about is that Mental Health is being scapegoated here. There is a vast difference between mental health issues and true criminal insanity.
Goodness me. The Express has a circulation of 400,000 odd people (in both senses of the word). It's probably the closest thing UKIP have to a house newspaper. Shall I start posting National Enquirer front pages to show that all yanks are completely credulous muppets?
'I'm going to smile if Qriously turns out to be the pioneer of more accurate sampling than the old fuddy-duddy methods that served us so well in GE2015. Just looking at their methodology link it's very interesting. They don't use 'an App.' They plug in via 50,000 other Apps replacing In-App Ads with questions. This is worth a quick look: http://www.qriously.com/our-method'
Why not ? their competition is the rubbish that was dished up at GE2015.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Get a grip Sean.
I'm entirely in control. I think the referendum was on a knife edge, but this will tip it to REMAIN by three or four points. My NoJam prediction was 56/44 REMAIN, that's probably wrong, but I reckon it could be 53/47
I reckon there are huge numbers of DKs, that are being uncounted. Yes 70% of people have decided, but there are millions who might say they are voting one way or another, but inside they are conflicted and could still be persuaded, so, in effect, they are DKs.
This will influence them. It will give nervous OUTs a reason to vote IN.
BTW I'm still OUT!
So you think the Qrious post-murder poll trend is, what ...?
Their finding was the opposite: that it has turned Remainers into Don't Knows. Might be rubbish polling of course but it's curious. I do know some people saying they can't now be bothered with it all.
Qrious poll is worthless. It's not got published tables, it's not got a published methodology, it has no published track record and it is not a BPC member. It has absolutely nothing to commend it.
There is something on methodology:
"All data is weighted on gender, age, region, previous voting behaviour (in the UK general election, 2015), and education level. Data is representative of UK adults 18+"
Regarding the referendum count, does anyone know please when the first results are expected and from which areas? Is it likely to be Sunderland leading the field again? - Usually a smoother operation than one of their locally made Qashqais! If so, how indicative will Sunderland be of the country as a whole and therefore of the likely overall result? Are sufficient areas likely to declare in the early hours so as to enable us to know the basic REMAIN/LEAVE outcome by say 3.00 a.m., as was pretty much the case with last year's GE (unless you were Paddy Ashdown or Ed Balls)?
My understanding is that the count is by Council Area NOT by constituency so timings will vary significantly based upon the size of the area involved.
Q-if it is really this close will there be a recount???
I think you're right - judging by Ladbrokes' book on the highest voting areas for both REMAIN and LEAVE. These were certainly towns/cities, rather than Parliamentary constituencies as such, which rather threw me when I first saw them listed. That said, I assume the broadcasters have a good idea when and where the first "declarations" are likely, so as to ensure maximum dramatic effect by having live TV coverage in place.
Count is by council area, fed up to regional level.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Get a grip Sean.
I'm entirely in control. I think the referendum was on a knife edge, but this will tip it to REMAIN by three or four points. My NoJam prediction was 56/44 REMAIN, that's probably wrong, but I reckon it could be 53/47
I reckon there are huge numbers of DKs, that are being uncounted. Yes 70% of people have decided, but there are millions who might say they are voting one way or another, but inside they are conflicted and could still be persuaded, so, in effect, they are DKs.
This will influence them. It will give nervous OUTs a reason to vote IN.
BTW I'm still OUT!
So you think the Qrious post-murder poll trend is, what ...?
Their finding was the opposite: that it has turned Remainers into Don't Knows. Might be rubbish polling of course but it's curious. I do know some people saying they can't now be bothered with it all.
Qrious poll is worthless. It's not got published tables, it's not got a published methodology, it has no published track record and it is not a BPC member. It has absolutely nothing to commend it.
Until it gets the result right on Thursday! Then the other polling companies have to throw their methodologies out the window and nick those of Qrious....
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Oh Sean. I'm not cross. Just disappointed.
Of course some people (doubtless mainly on Twitter) will say that this is down to the febrile nature of the referendum campaign. Of course some people are just (as they see it) cut out the middleman and claim that Farage killed Jo Cox (I can see it now 'just as surely as if he'd pulled the trigger himself').
But the sheer extremity of thought nullifies its value in my view. I cannot credit Cameron when he claimed that the EU had kept the peace. I like Donald Tusk, but didn't buy his worry that Brexit would lead to the end of Western Civilisation.
We've had people trying to play 'if you vote Leave, you're really a racist, don't kid yourself' for weeks - even had one this morning from Alastair. I can't buy an even more extreme argument than that.
British people are sensible and phlegmatic. I am sorry for Jo Cox and her family. But her murderers views and motivations are tangential to the referendum itself.
However, no one will think the less of you if you want to vote Remain. It's OK. Remainers are people too.
I'm still OUT.
I'm also trying to be objective.
How did you feel about Obama, and the IMF the first time you heard them?
Obama made me furious, and more LEAVE. The IMF I just tuned out.
But this makes me very uncomfortable, especially as the terrible murder came on the same day as that truly awful Farage poster. I've bandied words like "traitor" on PB. Do I feel proud of this, now? No I do not. I am pensive and regretful; this referendum - just like Sindyref - really has introduced something nasty into our discourse, and I've been a tiny, trivial part of that.
But then I stiffen the sinews and remember that this is a vote on the future of my country and my children's future, too, and I remember the good logical reasons why I was LEAVE and they haven't changed. So, very reluctantly, and with great trepidation, I am still LEAVE (I am reluctant because there are serious economic risks).
If I am feeling this, how are others feeling? There will be lots of troubled voters this weekend.
Have you seen the IMF report? Or at least read some of the summaries? If not, grab a glass of something good, and settle down for 15 minutes with dear old Christine.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Get a grip Sean.
I'm entirely in control. I think the referendum was on a knife edge, but this will tip it to REMAIN by three or four points. My NoJam prediction was 56/44 REMAIN, that's probably wrong, but I reckon it could be 53/47
I reckon there are huge numbers of DKs, that are being uncounted. Yes 70% of people have decided, but there are millions who might say they are voting one way or another, but inside they are conflicted and could still be persuaded, so, in effect, they are DKs.
This will influence them. It will give nervous OUTs a reason to vote IN.
BTW I'm still OUT!
So you think the Qrious post-murder poll trend is, what ...?
Their finding was the opposite: that it has turned Remainers into Don't Knows. Might be rubbish polling of course but it's curious. I do know some people saying they can't now be bothered with it all.
Qrious poll is worthless. It's not got published tables, it's not got a published methodology, it has no published track record and it is not a BPC member. It has absolutely nothing to commend it.
There is something on methodology:
"All data is weighted on gender, age, region, previous voting behaviour (in the UK general election, 2015), and education level. Data is representative of UK adults 18+"
That's not methodology, that's a blurb. How is it weighted? Against what? Published methodology for proper polls we discuss goes into more details than that.
Watching Lexit the movie. Apart from some "interesting" production errors I'd have been embarrassed to produce on my Journalism degree, I agree with pretty much everything it says
I'm afraid I stopped watching at the point that it was said Remain was supported by the 'Bullingdon twins'. I'm a lefty, but I thought If that it is the best they can come up with, I'm going to stick with Remain.
Apologies Nick. I didn't see your post to me on the last thread. I was busy on other things.
We were debating British exceptionalism and you said, from memory, that you thought that other countries saw some aspects of this (its role in WW2, free speech etc) as valid but a bit out of date. You went on to say that other democracies had things better now. I read that as meaning that you felt that these things were a bit out of date
I am happy to accept that you don't accept that free speech is an out of date concept - or at least I bloody hope you don't think that! - and to set the record straight. My apologies. I do not want to attribute views to you that you don't hold.
Thanks, Cyclefree - just one of those things that linger around when one posts on the internet and someone asynchronously reads them differently. Glad we could clear it up.
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh 38m38 minutes ago Dear Twitter, If you really care about Jo Cox, please be careful in what you now Tweet about her case. Don't risk contempt of court.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Oh Sean. I'm not cross. Just disappointed.
Of course some people (doubtless mainly on Twitter) will say that this is down to the febrile nature of the referendum campaign. Of course some people are just (as they see it) cut out the middleman and claim that Farage killed Jo Cox (I can see it now 'just as surely as if he'd pulled the trigger himself').
But the sheer extremity of thought nullifies its value in my view. I cannot credit Cameron when he claimed that the EU had kept the peace. I like Donald Tusk, but didn't buy his worry that Brexit would lead to the end of Western Civilisation.
We've had people trying to play 'if you vote Leave, you're really a racist, don't kid yourself' for weeks - even had one this morning from Alastair. I can't buy an even more extreme argument than that.
British people are sensible and phlegmatic. I am sorry for Jo Cox and her family. But her murderers views and motivations are tangential to the referendum itself.
However, no one will think the less of you if you want to vote Remain. It's OK. Remainers are people too.
I'm still OUT.
I'm also trying to be objective.
How did you feel about Obama, and the IMF the first time you heard them?
Obama made me furious, and more LEAVE. The IMF I just tuned out.
But this makes me very uncomfortable, especially as the terrible murder came on the same day as that truly awful Farage poster. I've bandied words like "traitor" on PB. Do I feel proud of this, now? No I do not. I am pensive and regretful; this referendum - just like Sindyref - really has introduced something nasty into our discourse, and I've been a tiny, trivial part of that.
But then I stiffen the sinews and remember that this is a vote on the future of my country and my children's future, too, and I remember the good logical reasons why I was LEAVE and they haven't changed. So, very reluctantly, and with great trepidation, I am still LEAVE (I am reluctant because there are serious economic risks).
If I am feeling this, how are others feeling? There will be lots of troubled voters this weekend.
If you vote Remain, you will get a personal visit of gratitude from George Osborne.
Time for newspapers to take responsibility for what they sometimes do. Not everyone reading inflammatory headlines and stories is completely well balanced.
Watching Lexit the movie. Apart from some "interesting" production errors I'd have been embarrassed to produce on my Journalism degree, I agree with pretty much everything it says
I'm afraid I stopped watching at the point that it was said Remain was supported by the 'Bullingdon twins'. I'm a lefty, but I thought If that it is the best they can come up with, I'm going to stick with Remain.
Skip past that cliche and watch the rest - it makes some excellent points about overriding democracy, damage to jobs and disenfranchising voters.
When does the verification of the postal votes take place?
I know that reporting publicly the results is illegal but IIRC at the GE last year the parties had a good early indication of how things were going??
People SAID they had good early indication of how things were going, e.g. Atul Hatwal saying postal votes indicated that things might not be as bad for SLab as polling suggested.
Do you know WHEN the verification process takes place?
I have read so many conflicting reports that I dont know who to believe.
All I can find regarding e.g. the Sindy referendum is that 'in the days running up to the 18th, there were daily postal vote opening sessions, where ballot boxes containing postal votes were opened and the contents verified'. Doesn't seem to be set dates or schedules.
Regarding the referendum count, does anyone know please when the first results are expected and from which areas? Is it likely to be Sunderland leading the field again? - Usually a smoother operation than one of their locally made Qashqais! If so, how indicative will Sunderland be of the country as a whole and therefore of the likely overall result? Are sufficient areas likely to declare in the early hours so as to enable us to know the basic REMAIN/LEAVE outcome by say 3.00 a.m., as was pretty much the case with last year's GE (unless you were Paddy Ashdown or Ed Balls)?
My understanding is that the count is by Council Area NOT by constituency so timings will vary significantly based upon the size of the area involved.
Q-if it is really this close will there be a recount???
I think you're right - judging by Ladbrokes' book on the highest voting areas for both REMAIN and LEAVE. These were certainly towns/cities, rather than Parliamentary constituencies as such, which rather threw me when I first saw them listed. That said, I assume the broadcasters have a good idea when and where the first "declarations" are likely, so as to ensure maximum dramatic effect by having live TV coverage in place.
I am having the same trouble trying to find the value - I live in Thanet S but my village-Wingham (significantly less Leave than Thanet as a whole) -falls into the Dover area. Thanet as a whole includes a lot of Roger Gale's constituency which I know well. I think Thanet will be a very high out area.
But I am still struggling to be very confident -and that's in my own area so i am very unsure about trying to work out another part of the UK.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Oh Sean. I'm not cross. Just disappointed.
Of course some people (doubtless mainly on Twitter) will say that this is down to the febrile nature of the referendum campaign. Of course some people are just (as they see it) cut out the middleman and claim that Farage killed Jo Cox (I can see it now 'just as surely as if he'd pulled the trigger himself').
But the sheer extremity of thought nullifies its value in my view. I cannot credit Cameron when he claimed that the EU had kept the peace. I like Donald Tusk, but didn't buy his worry that Brexit would lead to the end of Western Civilisation.
We've had people trying to play 'if you vote Leave, you're really a racist, don't kid yourself' for weeks - even had one this morning from Alastair. I can't buy an even more extreme argument than that.
British people are sensible and phlegmatic. I am sorry for Jo Cox and her family. But her murderers views and motivations are tangential to the referendum itself.
However, no one will think the less of you if you want to vote Remain. It's OK. Remainers are people too.
I'm still OUT.
I'm also trying to be objective.
How did you feel about Obama, and the IMF the first time you heard them?
Obama made me furious, and more LEAVE. The IMF I just tuned out.
But this makes me very uncomfortable, especially as the terrible murder came on the same day as that truly awful Farage poster. I've bandied words like "traitor" on PB. Do I feel proud of this, now? No I do not. I am pensive and regretful; this referendum - just like Sindyref - really has introduced something nasty into our discourse, and I've been a tiny, trivial part of that.
But then I stiffen the sinews and remember that this is a vote on the future of my country and my children's future, too, and I remember the good logical reasons why I was LEAVE and they haven't changed. So, very reluctantly, and with great trepidation, I am still LEAVE (I am reluctant because there are serious economic risks).
If I am feeling this, how are others feeling? There will be lots of troubled voters this weekend.
If you vote Remain, you will get a personal visit of gratitude from George Osborne.
For every day, for the rest of your life.
It's been said on here by people who claim to have met George Osborne that he is in fact more personable and charming than Cameron, so it might not be all bad. Still a worry though.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Oh Sean. I'm not cross. Just disappointed.
Of course some people (doubtless mainly on Twitter) will say that this is down to the febrile nature of the referendum campaign. Of course some people are just (as they see it) cut out the middleman and claim that Farage killed Jo Cox (I can see it now 'just as surely as if he'd pulled the trigger himself').
But the sheer extremity of thought nullifies its value in my view. I cannot credit Cameron when he claimed that the EU had kept the peace. I like Donald Tusk, but didn't buy his worry that Brexit would lead to the end of Western Civilisation.
We've had people trying to play 'if you vote Leave, you're really a racist, don't kid yourself' for weeks - even had one this morning from Alastair. I can't buy an even more extreme argument than that.
British people are sensible and phlegmatic. I am sorry for Jo Cox and her family. But her murderers views and motivations are tangential to the referendum itself.
However, no one will think the less of you if you want to vote Remain. It's OK. Remainers are people too.
I'm still OUT.
I'm also trying to be objective.
How did you feel about Obama, and the IMF the first time you heard them?
Obama made me furious, and more LEAVE. The IMF I just tuned out.
But this makes me very uncomfortable, especially as the terrible murder came on the same day as that truly awful Farage poster. I've bandied words like "traitor" on PB. Do I feel proud of this, now? No I do not. I am pensive and regretful; this referendum - just like Sindyref - really has introduced something nasty into our discourse, and I've been a tiny, trivial part of that.
But then I stiffen the sinews and remember that this is a vote on the future of my country and my children's future, too, and I remember the good logical reasons why I was LEAVE and they haven't changed. So, very reluctantly, and with great trepidation, I am still LEAVE (I am reluctant because there are serious economic risks).
If I am feeling this, how are others feeling? There will be lots of troubled voters this weekend.
If you vote Remain, you will get a personal visit of gratitude from George Osborne.
For every day, for the rest of your life.
I am reading a biography of Eden. It reminds me that the solidarity and/or "other-directedness" instilled by the trenches of WW I and the Blitz of WW II are no longer present amongst the electorate.
Telegraph News Live Jo Cox MP: accused murderer Thomas Mair gives name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' in court
REMAIN has won. That's it.
Of course some people (doubtless mainly on Twitter) will say that this is down to the febrile nature of the referendum campaign. Of course some people are just (as they see it) cut out the middleman and claim that Farage killed Jo Cox (I can see it now 'just as surely as if he'd pulled the trigger himself').
But the sheer extremity of thought nullifies its value in my view. I cannot credit Cameron when he claimed that the EU had kept the peace. I like Donald Tusk, but didn't buy his worry that Brexit would lead to the end of Western Civilisation.
We've had people trying to play 'if you vote Leave, you're really a racist, don't kid yourself' for weeks - even had one this morning from Alastair. I can't buy an even more extreme argument than that.
British people are sensible and phlegmatic. I am sorry for Jo Cox and her family. But her murderers views and motivations are tangential to the referendum itself.
However, no one will think the less of you if you want to vote Remain. It's OK. Remainers are people too.
How did you feel about Obama, and the IMF the first time you heard them?
Obama made me furious, and more LEAVE. The IMF I just tuned out.
But this makes me very uncomfortable, especially as the terrible murder came on the same day as that truly awful Farage poster. I've bandied words like "traitor" on PB. Do I feel proud of this, now? No I do not. I am pensive and regretful; this referendum - just like Sindyref - really has introduced something nasty into our discourse, and I've been a tiny, trivial part of that.
But then I stiffen the sinews and remember that this is a vote on the future of my country and my children's future, too, and I remember the good logical reasons why I was LEAVE and they haven't changed. So, very reluctantly, and with great trepidation, I am still LEAVE (I am reluctant because there are serious economic risks).
If I am feeling this, how are others feeling? There will be lots of troubled voters this weekend.
For every day, for the rest of your life.
It's been said on here by people who claim to have met George Osborne that he is in fact more personable and charming than Cameron, so it might not be all bad. Still a worry though.
He is said to be a much nicer man in person than David Cameron. Urbane, intelligent, humorous and a good listener wuth surprisingly good knowledge of pop culture stuff.
And in other news, Tommy Mair has just given his name in court as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' that kind of puts a hole in the whole "no political motive" narrative, no?
Apologies Nick. I didn't see your post to me on the last thread. I was busy on other things.
We were debating British exceptionalism and you said, from memory, that you thought that other countries saw some aspects of this (its role in WW2, free speech etc) as valid but a bit out of date. You went on to say that other democracies had things better now. I read that as meaning that you felt that these things were a bit out of date
I am happy to accept that you don't accept that free speech is an out of date concept - or at least I bloody hope you don't think that! - and to set the record straight. My apologies. I do not want to attribute views to you that you don't hold.
Thanks, Cyclefree - just one of those things that linger around when one posts on the internet and someone asynchronously reads them differently. Glad we could clear it up.
You're welcome. I enjoy debating with you.
And now I have learnt a new word: "asynchronously". Thank you!
"People will see what they want to see but what will have happened is that a country has taken a democratic decision. It is not reputation which ultimately matters but substance. I think BTW that you have a pretty rosy picture of how Britain is see. Britain has not been known as Perfidious Albion for nothing".
It's surprising how much the reputation of a country does matter. It's a brand like everything else. Germany is a brand. Think what that means in terms of selling cars pharmaceutiicals or technology. 'GERMAN Technology' has a value which the brand GERMANY gives it The UK is a brand. Ask anyone in the fashion industry or the great service industries the cachet it gives you to be working within the UK brand. Surprising but true.
Try selling the very latest technology with 'made in YEMEN' or Pharmaceuticals 'made in The CONGO' or courture fashion 'made in TUNISIA' and you'll see the value of a brand.
'Farage's xenophobic BRITAIN' will do a very valuable brand no good at all.
I bow to your superior knowledge on branding. But branding is not the only value that matters and may not be the most important one. Substance matters. Britain has to be a country which its citizens are comfortable in. And part of that comfort will come from its citizens' exercise of their democratic vote. Democracy matters. Democracy in Britain matters. Britain is not just a product to be sold.
We have 459 MPs in favour of Remaining 180 for Leaving. Under our form of democracy that means we should Remain. This ad hoc approach to democracy suggests it's something of a moveable feast. If this is legitimate democracy then what does it say about the one we normally use?
It says it is unrepresentative. We have been told for years that no one cares about the issue of EU membership and we have a situation in Parliament where a single tiny party represented by a single MP represents the views of something approaching half of the population of the country on this issue.
Our current system is ill suited to dealing with such fundamental constitutional issues because there is a vested interest within the parties to make sure things don't change.
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
Time for newspapers to take responsibility for what they sometimes do. Not everyone reading inflammatory headlines and stories is completely well balanced.
On the basis that somebody disturbed might not get the joke, you'd have to close down satire too. And cartoons might be a bit risky. They blur reality and fantasy. Best close them down.
You can't run a world based on the lowest common denominator of sanity. That somebody might perhaps get distressed by an expressed point of view. Well, perhaps in theory you could - but I wouldn't want to be part of such a world.
Battle of the Bastards GoT episode #9. It promises to be a humdinger. I'd best not spell out the obvious of who the two bastards in question presumably are for spoiler reasons.
"People will see what they want to see but what will have happened is that a country has taken a democratic decision. It is not reputation which ultimately matters but substance. I think BTW that you have a pretty rosy picture of how Britain is see. Britain has not been known as Perfidious Albion for nothing".
It's surprising how much the reputation of a country does matter. It's a brand like everything else. Germany is a brand. Think what that means in terms of selling cars pharmaceutiicals or technology. 'GERMAN Technology' has a value which the brand GERMANY gives it The UK is a brand. Ask anyone in the fashion industry or the great service industries the cachet it gives you to be working within the UK brand. Surprising but true.
Try selling the very latest technology with 'made in YEMEN' or Pharmaceuticals 'made in The CONGO' or courture fashion 'made in TUNISIA' and you'll see the value of a brand.
'Farage's xenophobic BRITAIN' will do a very valuable brand no good at all.
I bow to your superior knowledge on branding. But branding is not the only value that matters and may not be the most important one. Substance matters. Britain has to be a country which its citizens are comfortable in. And part of that comfort will come from its citizens' exercise of their democratic vote. Democracy matters. Democracy in Britain matters. Britain is not just a product to be sold.
We have 459 MPs in favour of Remaining 180 for Leaving. Under our form of democracy that means we should Remain. This ad hoc approach to democracy suggests it's something of a moveable feast. If this is legitimate democracy then what does it say about the one we normally use?
My daughter feels that this should have been left to Parliament. She wonders why we are having a referendum at all. It's a fair point.
But given that we are having one we will each of us have to exercise our right to vote in the way we think best. It is not an easy decision for me to make, I have to say. Even at this late stage, given that in 24 hours I shall be in France, I'm havering.
Suddenly loads of posters for REMAIN going up in people's window's where I live.
Haven't seen any new posters for LEAVE!
Posters for No Thanks started to appear in people's windows in Scotland on the weekend before the independence vote. Interesting it's the same for this referendum. Doesn't mean Remain will win though.
Watching Lexit the movie. Apart from some "interesting" production errors I'd have been embarrassed to produce on my Journalism degree, I agree with pretty much everything it says
I'm afraid I stopped watching at the point that it was said Remain was supported by the 'Bullingdon twins'. I'm a lefty, but I thought If that it is the best they can come up with, I'm going to stick with Remain.
Skip past that cliche and watch the rest - it makes some excellent points about overriding democracy, damage to jobs and disenfranchising voters.
Have to say my moments of hesitation have come from listening to Gisela Stuart, but I've made up my mind now.
I am still LEAVE (I am reluctant because there are serious economic risks).
Have you seen the IMF report? Or at least read some of the summaries? If not, grab a glass of something good, and settle down for 15 minutes with dear old Christine.
"The IMF report does seem to suggest that had HMT simulated the impact of a EEA deal post-Brexit, it wouldn’t have predicted a recession"
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
I hope your right. But with the result 50/50 this may just push Remain over the line. I think we should have another week of campaigning as we have really lost a week.
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Just because it will probably not have any obvious or decisive effect doesn't mean it will have no effect. Anything that happens at such a critical point in the campaign, and with extreme and irrational motivation likely, will have some sort of effect, even if it is subtle. It seems improbable such a thing would reverse and overturn leave momentum entirely, but a slight check? That seems possible. But if Remain do squeak a win, it won't have been because of this, although that may have been, even if slightly, a contributory factor.
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
I hope your right. But with the result 50/50 this may just push Remain over the line. I think we should have another week of campaigning as we have really lost a week.
No please. I dont think I could face another week of this.
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
I hope your right. But with the result 50/50 this may just push Remain over the line. I think we should have another week of campaigning as we have really lost a week.
Sorry but I don't think for one second that the result is 50/50 so that's spurious.
Leave are ahead. Contrary to perceived wisdom on here I think they will continue to firm up. Shy Leavers don't want to be considered racists. But in the secrecy of the ballot ...
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
He is crazy and no right minded person would change their vote based on what he's done. Not so sure that when you combine it with the Leave poster and some of the wilder threats of rape and violence made by some Leave supporters that they'll be no effect. The dangers of focussing too much on immigration and playing to peoples baser instincts is that they'll realise eventually. Which is sad for the vast majority of non bigots in the Leave camp.
A world safe for the lowest common denominator of sanity would be a damned tedious world for everyone else.
The ultimate cottonwool safe space. What a ridiculous attitude to take. You're more likely to struck by lightning, whilst putting on your trousers - and then winning the national lottery the same afternoon.
Suddenly loads of posters for REMAIN going up in people's window's where I live.
Haven't seen any new posters for LEAVE!
In my ward we recently got a Labour Remain mailshot that included a window poster. Looks like you got the same bumpf.
(I think this was leaflets delivered by Royal Mail rather than activist though. It was a bit odd. Labour Remain, Leave.eu, and UKIP. There were also addressed items from the official Leave/Remain campaigns.)
Time for newspapers to take responsibility for what they sometimes do. Not everyone reading inflammatory headlines and stories is completely well balanced.
On the basis that somebody disturbed might not get the joke, you'd have to close down satire too. And cartoons might be a bit risky. They blur reality and fantasy. Best close them down.
You can't run a world based on the lowest common denominator of sanity. That somebody might perhaps get distressed by an expressed point of view. Well, perhaps in theory you could - but I wouldn't want to be part of such a world.
That is also a fair point. It's a balance. My argument would be that the Express has crossed a line in those headlines, but I'd never advocate any action that impinges on free speech.
Time for newspapers to take responsibility for what they sometimes do. Not everyone reading inflammatory headlines and stories is completely well balanced.
What kind of self censorship are you suggesting to accommodate the less than well balanced and will you be the judge of how proficiently that has been done?
I wish people would stop equating mental illness with insanity. Thia man was clearly able to function perfectly well in society with his OCD and such. Very rarely is mental illness sonething which leads to others being in danger. His actions were something we would like to think come only from insanity but the evidence is so far showing that it was not.
This is very depressing and illustrates how it's not just been the responsibility of one side. The whole sorry saga of the referendum has made me fearful for this country that I love, with its terrible weather and, as I thought, its phlegmatic, tolerant, decent, fair-minded people.
nunu is right. There is no chance Leave will win now. As a strong supporter of European cooperation, this isn't right. I don't want to win like this. They delayed the voter registration deadline for the website was down for more than an hour. The least they can do now is delay the referendum for a few weeks to make sure it is a soberly done vote. It's not right for a decision for 40 years to be made a week after a politically charged murder like this.
Suddenly loads of posters for REMAIN going up in people's window's where I live.
Haven't seen any new posters for LEAVE!
In my ward we recently got a Labour Remain mailshot that included a window poster. Looks like you got the same bumpf.
(I think this was leaflets delivered by Royal Mail rather than activist though. It was a bit odd. Labour Remain, Leave.eu, and UKIP. There were also addressed items from the official Leave/Remain campaigns.)
Maybe... Or this could be the first signs of swing-back to the status quo that we've all been expecting...
This is very depressing and illustrates how it's not just been the responsibility of one side. The whole sorry saga of the referendum has made me fearful for this country that I love, with its terrible weather and, as I thought, its phlegmatic, tolerant, decent, fair-minded people.
It's not just the referendum. Some of the behaviour outside the Tory conferences in recent years has been disgusting.
Time for newspapers to take responsibility for what they sometimes do. Not everyone reading inflammatory headlines and stories is completely well balanced.
What kind of self censorship are you suggesting to accommodate the less than well balanced and will you be the judge of how proficiently that has been done?
I am suggesting people think and accept that sometimes there are consequences to what they do. I would not ban anything. In fact, I'd lift current restrictions on free speech.
Watching Lexit the movie. Apart from some "interesting" production errors I'd have been embarrassed to produce on my Journalism degree, I agree with pretty much everything it says
I'm afraid I stopped watching at the point that it was said Remain was supported by the 'Bullingdon twins'. I'm a lefty, but I thought If that it is the best they can come up with, I'm going to stick with Remain.
Skip past that cliche and watch the rest - it makes some excellent points about overriding democracy, damage to jobs and disenfranchising voters.
Have to say my moments of hesitation have come from listening to Gisela Stuart, but I've made up my mind now.
I went out leafletting on a council estate the morning after the ITV debate. Got talking to a group of early risers, Gisela Stuart was the crowd favourite that morning. :-)
BBC are reporting that "Thomas Mair, charged with MP Jo Cox's murder, gives his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" to UK court”
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
This is so sad. An important exercise in democracy is going to effectively decided by one clearly insane man. Remain have won.
Oh not you too.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
I don't think it will change anyone's vote. A thought just occurred to me though. There is one group of typically low turnout voters who could be motivated by this to actually turnout and vote - young people (particularly students types). i can imagine young people being more likely to "overreact" and make a connection between this incident = far right = Brexit. This may bring them out in a way that dry economic arguments for remain don't.
How likely do contributors feel it is that we would ACTUALLY leave the EU even if the Leave campaign won the referendum in % terms? 50/50?
I wonder whether the following isn't more likely: result of ref announced, initial public statements we must obey the will of the British people, opening of protracted negotiations, some market and economic chaos including recession, some high profile job losses, a couple of banks moving to Frankfurt, a house price crisis, lots of people "realising" this was not what they thought that they voted for, complaining it wasn't explained well at teh time... immigration continuing...
Some more negotiations, not going very sccessfully, some market chaos, senior politicians announcing "we must put the new deal we have negotiated with Brussels since the referendum result to the british people" in an election...
At least one or both of the major parties going into the election saying: "on the basis of the new compromise deal we have now negotiated, we have given the EU a shock and now recommend we sould stay in?"
The electorate hastily agrees with them at an election or a second referendum?
nunu is right. There is no chance Leave will win now. As a strong supporter of European cooperation, this isn't right. I don't want to win like this. They delayed the voter registration deadline for the website was down for more than an hour. The least they can do now is delay the referendum for a few weeks to make sure it is a soberly done vote. It's not right for a decision for 40 years to be made a week after a politically charged murder like this.
I think I agree with this.
The worst possible result now is narrow Remain. It will be (rightly or wrongly) put down to the effects of the murder.
As if that weren't bad enough, I'm pretty sure that chant is a derivation of the rhetoric the Arabs used against the Jews before the 1948 Arab-Israeli war...
This is very depressing and illustrates how it's not just been the responsibility of one side. The whole sorry saga of the referendum has made me fearful for this country that I love, with its terrible weather and, as I thought, its phlegmatic, tolerant, decent, fair-minded people.
I've never understood how people can have such hatred for opposing mainstream political groups. I know some try to pretend it isn't hatred, but it bloody well is, its visceral, entirely irrational and also just dumb as all hell. I don't doubt most actual politicians don't share the more ridiculous hatred of opponents some of their supporters do, because they actually have to work with them occasionally, see them as people, but there is too much bile and hatred from supporters, and not just on the internet.
Anything that happens at such a critical point in the campaign, and with extreme and irrational motivation likely, will have some sort of effect, even if it is subtle. It seems improbable such a thing would reverse and overturn leave momentum entirely, but a slight check? That seems possible. But if Remain do squeak a win, it won't have been because of this, although that may have been, even if slightly, a contributory factor.
You sound as though you are struggling for words to distinguish between different classes of causation, and over-qualifying what you are saying. The murder of Jo Cox has been the subject of many reports and commentaries, it has shocked many people, and it has been discussed a lot in the country. Given the roughly equal pegging between the two campaigns (I'm not saying it's 50-50; that would be absurd), the murder could easily change enough people's votes to win the referendum for one side or the other.
Doesn't the murder of Anna Lindh provide our only guide how this tragic event may impact the polls. I'm not sure we're so different to the Swedes, temperamentally
When does the verification of the postal votes take place?
I know that reporting publicly the results is illegal but IIRC at the GE last year the parties had a good early indication of how things were going??
People SAID they had good early indication of how things were going, e.g. Atul Hatwal saying postal votes indicated that things might not be as bad for SLab as polling suggested.
Do you know WHEN the verification process takes place?
I have read so many conflicting reports that I dont know who to believe.
Postal votes are verified in batches starting last week, into next week. But the process is supposed to be done to conceal the front side of the ballot papers, so any scrutineer is unlikely to see more than the occasional paper. So regard any claims of information obtained from postal vote verifications with extreme caution (as Atul's evident misinfo above confirms!).
Verification of papers from the ballot box is done as the first stage of the counting process, on Thursday night. These ballot papers are verified face up (to conceal the ballot paper ID numbers on the back) and therefore a good scrutineer will quickly get an idea of the result (I have been to eight counts for my ward and have estimated the result pretty accurately every time, before a single paper has been counted). But it is illegal to communicate any information from a count before the result is declared. That said, the information does sometimes leak out, normally via journalists who turn information received off the record from a scrutineer into some vague comment like "the mood is" or "party X is confident" etc.
Received a Vote Leave leaflet this morning. It, obviously, states that Turkey is poised to join the EU, but it also implies that so are Syria and Iraq!
I wish people would stop equating mental illness with insanity. Thia man was clearly able to function perfectly well in society with his OCD and such. Very rarely is mental illness sonething which leads to others being in danger. His actions were something we would like to think come only from insanity but the evidence is so far showing that it was not.
Yup, horrible to see scapegoating of mental illness like this.
Comments
https://twitter.com/chrisa/status/743803267151433728
I can't recall anyone saying anything so bizarre in court.
"The referendum rules do not provide for a national recount to be carried out in any
circumstances.
Any request for a recount of votes will be at local count level and is
for the Counting Officer to determine. We expect local recounts to be granted if a
specific issue has been identified with the process in that counting area, rather than
simply when the local totals are close.
The national referendum result is only subject to challenge by way of judicial review."
The problem is that after this crime, any Remain win will be seen as questionable by some, and will keep the conspiracy theory industry in business for years.
Oh that will be fun-:(
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm150907/debtext/150907-0005.htm#15090820001470
For example, I may be strongly for remain but my father is very strongly for leave. I'm not going to make any connection between his viewpoint and some hideous neo-nazi. Neither is anyone who personally knows Leavers (which is everyone). It won't wash.
What I am concerned about is that Mental Health is being scapegoated here. There is a vast difference between mental health issues and true criminal insanity.
F1: final practice underway, a drain cover came loose and damaged Bottas' car.
'I'm going to smile if Qriously turns out to be the pioneer of more accurate sampling than the old fuddy-duddy methods that served us so well in GE2015. Just looking at their methodology link it's very interesting. They don't use 'an App.' They plug in via 50,000 other Apps replacing In-App Ads with questions. This is worth a quick look: http://www.qriously.com/our-method'
Why not ? their competition is the rubbish that was dished up at GE2015.
Edited extra bit: apparently overtaking opportunities into turn 1.
"All data is weighted on gender, age, region, previous voting behaviour (in the UK general election, 2015), and education level. Data is representative of UK adults 18+"
http://www.qriously.com/blog/jo-cox-murder-influence-outcome-eu-referendum/
EDIT
As they require ownership of a smart phone, their big weakness is probably having to weight-up responders from older and poorer age groups.
Louise Mensch @LouiseMensch · 1m1 minute ago
Louise Mensch Retweeted Trip Gabriel
I always get what I want. #NeverTrump
No nothing about F1
Dear Twitter, If you really care about Jo Cox, please be careful in what you now Tweet about her case. Don't risk contempt of court.
For every day, for the rest of your life.
I make no comment, draw no conclusions.
But I am still struggling to be very confident -and that's in my own area so i am very unsure about trying to work out another part of the UK.
And now I have learnt a new word: "asynchronously". Thank you!
Suddenly loads of posters for REMAIN going up in people's window's where I live.
Haven't seen any new posters for LEAVE!
Our current system is ill suited to dealing with such fundamental constitutional issues because there is a vested interest within the parties to make sure things don't change.
For goodness sake get a grip you and Sean. This loony / extremist isn't going to affect the outcome. People can obviously see he's so far off the scale that it will make no difference.
Ironically if he'd been more midstream it might have been different. But he isn't. He's out there: far right, far loopy and it will have no effect.
You can't run a world based on the lowest common denominator of sanity. That somebody might perhaps get distressed by an expressed point of view. Well, perhaps in theory you could - but I wouldn't want to be part of such a world.
But given that we are having one we will each of us have to exercise our right to vote in the way we think best. It is not an easy decision for me to make, I have to say. Even at this late stage, given that in 24 hours I shall be in France, I'm havering.
Time for some fresh air I think.
A world safe for the lowest common denominator of sanity would be a damned tedious world for everyone else.
twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/744089523248824320
Leave are ahead. Contrary to perceived wisdom on here I think they will continue to firm up. Shy Leavers don't want to be considered racists. But in the secrecy of the ballot ...
Which is sad for the vast majority of non bigots in the Leave camp.
(I think this was leaflets delivered by Royal Mail rather than activist though. It was a bit odd. Labour Remain, Leave.eu, and UKIP. There were also addressed items from the official Leave/Remain campaigns.)
Revolutionary Socialist. Blame Bankers not migrants #LetThemIn #BlackLivesMatter #FreePalestine #BDS #getCameronout #NoFracking #COYS READ- @socialistworker
(Angela Eagle was loathed.)
I wonder whether the following isn't more likely: result of ref announced, initial public statements we must obey the will of the British people, opening of protracted negotiations, some market and economic chaos including recession, some high profile job losses, a couple of banks moving to Frankfurt, a house price crisis, lots of people "realising" this was not what they thought that they voted for, complaining it wasn't explained well at teh time... immigration continuing...
Some more negotiations, not going very sccessfully, some market chaos, senior politicians announcing "we must put the new deal we have negotiated with Brussels since the referendum result to the british people" in an election...
At least one or both of the major parties going into the election saying: "on the basis of the new compromise deal we have now negotiated, we have given the EU a shock and now recommend we sould stay in?"
The electorate hastily agrees with them at an election or a second referendum?
The worst possible result now is narrow Remain. It will be (rightly or wrongly) put down to the effects of the murder.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/andrew-marr-i-believe-the-brexit-chatter/
Verification of papers from the ballot box is done as the first stage of the counting process, on Thursday night. These ballot papers are verified face up (to conceal the ballot paper ID numbers on the back) and therefore a good scrutineer will quickly get an idea of the result (I have been to eight counts for my ward and have estimated the result pretty accurately every time, before a single paper has been counted). But it is illegal to communicate any information from a count before the result is declared. That said, the information does sometimes leak out, normally via journalists who turn information received off the record from a scrutineer into some vague comment like "the mood is" or "party X is confident" etc.
It's finally given them a reason to vote that a pathetic establishment campaign never did and to vote with pride.
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