Effective but disgusting. Surely the ends don't always justify the means. Funny isn't it that the closer we get to next Thursday that a lot of Leaves real motivation becomes apparent as the smoke and mirrors fade away. It's not attractive. Looks like a march past.
I have no doubt that leave are very likely to win but 7 days is a long time in politics and who knows what event or events may come along to change the narrative. But for me George Osborne lost the campaign, and me, yesterday and really I am now looking to beyond the referendum with a plea to all sides to be kinder to one another and accept the will of the people in what I would expect to be a high turnout poll and probable Brexit
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
A Labour manifesto by the look of it.
Indeed. It turns out that when Gove, Boris, Priti and co told us that there was no alternative to austerity they were telling lies. Whoever would have thought it?
Put the £26bn or so that is EU fees and overseas aid back on the table and budget decisions could have been/can be very different.
The EU money will get swallowed up immediately to cover the drop in tax receipts that will follow Brexit, as will the overseas aid money. The new Tory Leave government will have to borrow more to make good its promises. Let's see if that happens.
Osborne has borrowed more money than he said he would in most if not all financial years. So what is the difference?
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
This is not about individuals but the long term future of this country. This will have an impact when Farage et al. are long dead and buried. Focus on the ball not the men.
Effective but disgusting. Surely the ends don't always justify the means. Funny isn't it that the closer we get to next Thursday that a lot of Leaves real motivation becomes apparent as the smoke and mirrors fade away. It's not attractive. Looks like a march past.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
Given Crick's dislike for UKIP and given he hasn't named a source and given Channel 4 News is widely ignored when it comes to covering anything outside of the liberal bubble I'd say this is less terrifying and more 'completely unsubstantiated'
One of the winners from the referendum discussions has been Jezza. Silence can be golden at times.
I was a union rep for fifteen years, and at the branch council one day, the full-time rep gave us all a bit of good advice. Never recommend to your members something they don't agree with. The Labour party and some of the unions have failed to heed that message.
Len is a political animal, but he is what he is. Some of the Labour MPs have only just listened to the non-metropolitan, less-middle class voters and it's come as a shock.
Anti-Tory feelings may be ingrained in them, so urging them to vote against their own wishes to support Cameron/Osborne is playing with fire.
I have no doubt that leave are very likely to win but 7 days is a long time in politics and who knows what event or events may come along to change the narrative. But for me George Osborne lost the campaign, and me, yesterday and really I am now looking to beyond the referendum with a plea to all sides to be kinder to one another and accept the will of the people in what I would expect to be a high turnout poll and probable Brexit
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
A Labour manifesto by the look of it.
Indeed. It turns out that when Gove, Boris, Priti and co told us that there was no alternative to austerity they were telling lies. Whoever would have thought it?
Put the £26bn or so that is EU fees and overseas aid back on the table and budget decisions could have been/can be very different.
The EU money will get swallowed up immediately to cover the drop in tax receipts that will follow Brexit, as will the overseas aid money. The new Tory Leave government will have to borrow more to make good its promises. Let's see if that happens.
Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
However, the public mood is perhaps captured by these two poll findings;
81% of people felt there was 'some risk' in leaving; 61% of people were prepared to accept the chance of economic slowdown;
I think a great many people have reached the point of concluding that things can't go on like this.
Some of Britain's woes are not management issues; they are systemic ones.
I feel even more convinced that Osborne won't last the year. Michael Howard who gave George Osborne his big political break has written 'yesterday saw the threat of an emergency budget - which was nothing more than ludicrous scaremongering born of desperation. No responsible Chancellor would seriously propose any such thing.'
In an excellent post for the new www.reaction.life website, Iain Martin agrees 'George Osborne will be very lucky to survive more than a few months as Chancellor...it is difficult to see in practical terms how the Chancellor can carry on for long having lost the confidence of such a large part of the Conservative parliamentary party.' Full article is here http://reaction.life/osborne-looks-like-toast/
I now think it's 4/6 or 8/13 that Osborne will go this year. The 7/4 with Hills that Osborne will cease to be Chancellor in 2016 is stand out value.
Osborne's Bizarre Blackmail Budget felt like the act of a man who knows his career is over, whatever he does.
It was a dramatic final gesture so he can say Told you so when and if Brexit goes tits up, and a gesture that might just win the vote, if he gets very lucky, so he can say, in his retirement, that he was the Chancellor who secured the UK's place in the EU when it seemed the polls were turning against.
There is no downside for him, if you realise he is a man who knows he is condemned, whatever happens.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
QT panel could be feisty: "David Dimbleby presents topical debate from York. On the panel are musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof, Labour's former home secretary Alan Johnson MP, Conservative education secretary Nicky Morgan MP, economist Ruth Lea, Leave campaigner and former Labour minister Tom Harris and the novelist and former Conservative MP Louise Mensch."
Geldof and Mensch... Reith will be turning in his grave.
Christ, thank God Harris is on, otherwise the entire collective IQ would barely be into three figures.
I have no doubt that leave are very likely to win but 7 days is a long time in politics and who knows what event or events may come along to change the narrative. But for me George Osborne lost the campaign, and me, yesterday and really I am now looking to beyond the referendum with a plea to all sides to be kinder to one another and accept the will of the people in what I would expect to be a high turnout poll and probable Brexit
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
All of that is possible, but it depends on higher wages which is hard to achieve within a system which has an essentially unlimited poll of unskilled workers. Switzerland has proved you can have a society with low taxation, decent public services and high wages.
If we end up with a Swiss-style relationship with the EU then millions of voters who were promised substantially lower immigration are going to be furious.
Switzerland have pulled their emergency brake, and much like Lichtenstein it looks like the EU will end up caving and just let it continue indefinitely.
Have they? When did that happen?
They had a referendum on it a couple of years ago which the SVP won very narrowly. The EU has continued as normal with Switzerland's single market status while they have introduced restrictions on EU migrants. The EU are just waiting for this referendum to be over before they use the Lichtenstein solution and just let the emergency brake continue indefinitely or until migration pressures reduce to a level where Switzerland decided to rescind it.
I'm trying not to BeLeave just in case I get crushingly disappointed on the 23rd.
I agree. I have been wanting this and working towards it for for 30 years and can hardly quite believe it might finally happen. I won't believe it until 24th.
When exactly will we know the outcome? Is there a link to the timetable of counting and reporting?
PM (radio programme) yesterday suggested that the BBC won't make a prediction before 5am depending on how close it is, but the 'official result' is due at 'Breakfast time'. Apparently votes are announced locally and then regionally before the national result from Manchester.
Suggests Mori have uprated underclass etc (politically disengaged).
Many who vote in GEs but rarely in other elections will vote in this referendum. Some who vote in some GEs but not others will too. A few will vote who hardly vote at all. But most people in the "underclass" won't vote. The "underclass" aren't a factor.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
I have no doubt that leave are very likely to win but 7 days is a long time in politics and who knows what event or events may come along to change the narrative. But for me George Osborne lost the campaign, and me, yesterday and really I am now looking to beyond the referendum with a plea to all sides to be kinder to one another and accept the will of the people in what I would expect to be a high turnout poll and probable Brexit
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
A Labour manifesto by the look of it.
Indeed. It turns out that when Gove, Boris, Priti and co told us that there was no alternative to austerity they were telling lies. Whoever would have thought it?
Put the £26bn or so that is EU fees and overseas aid back on the table and budget decisions could have been/can be very different.
The EU money will get swallowed up immediately to cover the drop in tax receipts that will follow Brexit, as will the overseas aid money. The new Tory Leave government will have to borrow more to make good its promises. Let's see if that happens.
Osborne has borrowed more money than he said he would in most if not all financial years. So what is the difference?
Everytime I looked at the emergency budget yesterday I wondered why it wasn't implemented last July....
I feel even more convinced that Osborne won't last the year. Michael Howard who gave George Osborne his big political break has written 'yesterday saw the threat of an emergency budget - which was nothing more than ludicrous scaremongering born of desperation. No responsible Chancellor would seriously propose any such thing.'
In an excellent post for the new www.reaction.life website, Iain Martin agrees 'George Osborne will be very lucky to survive more than a few months as Chancellor...it is difficult to see in practical terms how the Chancellor can carry on for long having lost the confidence of such a large part of the Conservative parliamentary party.' Full article is here http://reaction.life/osborne-looks-like-toast/
I now think it's 4/6 or 8/13 that Osborne will go this year. The 7/4 with Hills that Osborne will cease to be Chancellor in 2016 is stand out value.
Osborne's Bizarre Blackmail Budget felt like the act of a man who knows his career is over, whatever he does.
It was a dramatic final gesture so he can say Told you so when and if Brexit goes tits up, and a gesture that might just win the vote, if he gets very lucky, so he can say, in his retirement, that he was the Chancellor who secured the UK's place in the EU when it seemed the polls were turning against.
There is no downside for him, if you realise he is a man who knows he is condemned, whatever happens.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Yeah right. If leave win he's damned whatever happens. this intervention changes nothing apart from changing the narrative back to where it should be....the economy.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
What has he said?
Bernard Jenkin wearing his Public Accounts Committee chair hat has written to Carney to remind him not to make any more announcements/interventions.
Carney has sent him a three page !!!! letter and sounds very grumpy.
It's a very disingenuous reply suggesting that Jenkin was referring to Carney's personal view, when I think it was fairly clear he meant Carney's official view.
I have no doubt that leave are very likely to win but 7 days is a long time in politics and who knows what event or events may come along to change the narrative. But for me George Osborne lost the campaign, and me, yesterday and really I am now looking to beyond the referendum with a plea to all sides to be kinder to one another and accept the will of the people in what I would expect to be a high turnout poll and probable Brexit
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
All of that is possible, but it depends on higher wages which is hard to achieve within a system which has an essentially unlimited poll of unskilled workers. Switzerland has proved you can have a society with low taxation, decent public services and high wages.
If we end up with a Swiss-style relationship with the EU then millions of voters who were promised substantially lower immigration are going to be furious.
Switzerland have pulled their emergency brake, and much like Lichtenstein it looks like the EU will end up caving and just let it continue indefinitely.
Have they? When did that happen?
They had a referendum on it a couple of years ago which the SVP won very narrowly. The EU has continued as normal with Switzerland's single market status while they have introduced restrictions on EU migrants. The EU are just waiting for this referendum to be over before they use the Lichtenstein solution and just let the emergency brake continue indefinitely or until migration pressures reduce to a level where Switzerland decided to rescind it.
What restrictions have they introduced? My understanding is that they have actually done very little out of concern for putting access to the single market at risk.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
The poster is clearly playing on fears of all and any foreigners, particularly the middle-eastern looking ones pictured.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
The poster is clearly playing on fears of all and any foreigners, particularly the middle-eastern looking ones pictured.
Yes, indeed. It is racist and xenophobic. There's no way round that. But it is probably effective nevertheless.
A question for PBers on free movement after a leave vote:
I currently live in France, but will be moving back to the UK for a year between late 2016/2017. After that year I would be intending to move back to France.
How would leaving affect my plans here? assuming we follow the article 50 route the earliest we would leave is 2018 so I should be able to move back without an issue, but I could be kicked out once we leave as I will only have moved back after a brexit vote, so will those acquired rights still count (if they ever were to count at all)?
This referendum has put me, Scott, Carlotta, Topping, Southam, Surbiton, Tyson, Richard N, Ally M (Antifrank) and HYFUD all on the same side. We argued like cats and dogs in years gone by.
I have found I rather like the new consensus.
British Democratic Party anyone?
More concerning, I find myself agreeing with Roger.
It truly is the end of days...
That reprogramming you got sent for clearly hasn't gone well....
Farage in the cabinet is a long way off - that gift is one from the PM, we have one and if he steps down there needs to be a leadership election in the Conservative party.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
The poster is clearly playing on fears of all and any foreigners, particularly the middle-eastern looking ones pictured.
No it is a depiction of an actual event whereby thousands of people walked into Europe without being registered or otherwise. It was a dangerous extreme left moment of open border anarchism from Merkel and friends.
I have no doubt that leave are very likely to win but 7 days is a long time in politics and who knows what event or events may come along to change the narrative. But for me George Osborne lost the campaign, and me, yesterday and really I am now looking to beyond the referendum with a plea to all sides to be kinder to one another and accept the will of the people in what I would expect to be a high turnout poll and probable Brexit
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
All of that is possible, but it depends on higher wages which is hard to achieve within a system which has an essentially unlimited poll of unskilled workers. Switzerland has proved you can have a society with low taxation, decent public services and high wages.
If we end up with a Swiss-style relationship with the EU then millions of voters who were promised substantially lower immigration are going to be furious.
Switzerland have pulled their emergency brake, and much like Lichtenstein it looks like the EU will end up caving and just let it continue indefinitely.
Have they? When did that happen?
They had a referendum on it a couple of years ago which the SVP won very narrowly. The EU has continued as normal with Switzerland's single market status while they have introduced restrictions on EU migrants. The EU are just waiting for this referendum to be over before they use the Lichtenstein solution and just let the emergency brake continue indefinitely or until migration pressures reduce to a level where Switzerland decided to rescind it.
What restrictions have they introduced? My understanding is that they have actually done very little out of concern for putting access to the single market at risk.
Some unskilled migrants are being rejected, and unrestricted right to resettle has been rescinded.
I'm trying not to BeLeave just in case I get crushingly disappointed on the 23rd.
I agree. I have been wanting this and working towards it for for 30 years and can hardly quite believe it might finally happen. I won't believe it until 24th.
When exactly will we know the outcome? Is there a link to the timetable of counting and reporting?
PM (radio programme) yesterday suggested that the BBC won't make a prediction before 5am depending on how close it is, but the 'official result' is due at 'Breakfast time'. Apparently votes are announced locally and then regionally before the national result from Manchester.
There are 12 regions. I suspect they will announce the NW England regional result last, which will tell us the national result.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Effective but disgusting. Surely the ends don't always justify the means. Funny isn't it that the closer we get to next Thursday that a lot of Leaves real motivation becomes apparent as the smoke and mirrors fade away. It's not attractive. Looks like a march past.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
Given Crick's dislike for UKIP and given he hasn't named a source and given Channel 4 News is widely ignored when it comes to covering anything outside of the liberal bubble I'd say this is less terrifying and more 'completely unsubstantiated'
I very much doubt that Farage would be a offered a post in the Cabinet.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Politician tells 'story' about his dad's business being closed by the EU and the CFP. Politician parades dad in front of tv cameras to back up 'story'. Paper phones dad and reproduces verbatim his his words, suggesting that business closed before implimentation of CFP quotas. Politician goes off on one about exploiting sick, old dad.
Perhaps politician shouldn't have exploited sick, old dad in the first place.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
A realignment is entirely feasible. But less of the "moderate".
From Labour's perspective who are the "moderates". The people despairing that their voters are voting for bigotry and racism. The people who abstained on welfare cuts to the poorest. The people who think the best alternative to Tory privatisation and marketisation is Labour privatisation and marketisation.
When you are that far removed from your own party membership and more importantly the electorate you are not "moderate".
A new One Nation party with Cameron Clegg and Blair aficionados all on board. A marvellous prospect for all of us who want to see a return to proper Tory and Labour parties.
Given that Remain are going to lose, I'd prefer they did it with a little dignity. Geldof yesterday was a fucking disgrace. I can also imagine we are going to get a lot of hand-wringing articles in the Guardian. Remain just have to accept that leave have had the most powerful argument to win this vote - the promise of a substantial reduction in immigration.
The focus now needs to be on delivery of that and also of all the other stuff that has been promised.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
QT panel could be feisty: "David Dimbleby presents topical debate from York. On the panel are musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof, Labour's former home secretary Alan Johnson MP, Conservative education secretary Nicky Morgan MP, economist Ruth Lea, Leave campaigner and former Labour minister Tom Harris and the novelist and former Conservative MP Louise Mensch."
Well I won't be watching that. It will be "Givvvve us your f##kin money" screaming and shouting like Eddie Izzard last week.
I really really really wish QT would drop this BS of putting celebs on the panel. The most sensible member of that panel and one that I would like to hear speak, Ruth Lea, will do well to get an word in edge ways.
QT panel could be feisty: "David Dimbleby presents topical debate from York. On the panel are musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof, Labour's former home secretary Alan Johnson MP, Conservative education secretary Nicky Morgan MP, economist Ruth Lea, Leave campaigner and former Labour minister Tom Harris and the novelist and former Conservative MP Louise Mensch."
Well I won't be watching that. It will be "Givvvve us your f##kin money" screaming and shouting like Eddie Izzard last week.
I really really really wish QT would drop this BS of putting celebs on the panel. The most sensible member of that panel and one that I would like to hear speak, Ruth Lea, will do well to get an word in edge ways.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Hague was the first UK politician to take anti-EU demagoguery into the mainstream. He'll deserve his share of the blame if we vote to Leave next week.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
Carney has a vote as well, as a citizen of the commonwealth.
Either way, we are in purdah and it would be improper for Carney to make any statements on the subject, he will have to wait until after the 23rd.
Mr. Urquhart, I rarely watch QT anymore anyway, but must agree.
I think some celebrities would be quite good (intelligent ones) but the handwringing nonsense of people who think their fame makes them worth listening to on political matters is not pleasing.
Izzard going on about humanity as if we're going to start stoning homosexuals and sending children up chimneys if we leave was simply pathetic.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
I completely agree. If Carney had endorsed Osborne's tragic budget that would be one thing. He's behaved with complete propriety and simply performed his statutory duties. Jenkins is an idiot.
A question for PBers on free movement after a leave vote:
I currently live in France, but will be moving back to the UK for a year between late 2016/2017. After that year I would be intending to move back to France.
How would leaving affect my plans here? assuming we follow the article 50 route the earliest we would leave is 2018 so I should be able to move back without an issue, but I could be kicked out once we leave as I will only have moved back after a brexit vote, so will those acquired rights still count (if they ever were to count at all)?
It's completely impossible to say for sure, since it depends entirely on the agreement reached with the EU. You won't have 'acquired rights' unless the French decide to grant them (the Vienna Convention, which Leavers quote in their ignorance, refers to the rights of states, not individuals, and in any case France didn't sign it).
In practice, I'd expect the UK and other EU countries to grant each other's citizens reciprocal rights of residence, but probably involving more bureaucracy and not automatically as of right. Also your healthcare costs might become much more expensive.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Hague was the first UK politician to take anti-EU demagoguery into the mainstream. He'll deserve his share of the blame if we vote to Leave next week.
Quick question for the Conservative Remainers. Put yourself forward a week after Britain has decided for better or worse to vote "Brexit".
If you were armed with this foresight back in 2015 (Of course noone is - but that isn't the question), would you have prefferred a Labour lead Ed Miliband Gov't back in May 2015.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
A realignment is entirely feasible. But less of the "moderate".
From Labour's perspective who are the "moderates". The people despairing that their voters are voting for bigotry and racism. The people who abstained on welfare cuts to the poorest. The people who think the best alternative to Tory privatisation and marketisation is Labour privatisation and marketisation.
When you are that far removed from your own party membership and more importantly the electorate you are not "moderate".
A new One Nation party with Cameron Clegg and Blair aficionados all on board. A marvellous prospect for all of us who want to see a return to proper Tory and Labour parties.
Well moderate as in the centre ground. Normal, sensible people who care about their families and the economy of their countries and look out into the world, and are not part of a weird coalition of bitter socialist isolationists and rightwing golf club boors.
Anyone who votes Leave on the grounds of reducing immigration, which is probably a majority, is voting on a false prospectus.
See the UKIP poster...
QED
I think the photo on the UKIP poster is a column of Syrian refugees, which isn't actually a problem that will be addressed by leaving the EU.
But who needs logic?
They won't be able to come here on mass if Germany or another country decides to give them EU passports Willy nilly.
I thought about that. But a) That possible situation is down the line - the immediate problem is of refugees and b) They would be German by that point. I don't think Leave are proposing an immigration policy based on racial stereotyping.
But, heck, that poster isn't there to stimulate reasoned discussion. It's there to play on base fears.
Your first point a) is dangerous short-term-ism and b) the poster is clearly referring to the fact that if we vote remain the fact that they're German is irrelevant because they can all come here.
The poster is clearly playing on fears of all and any foreigners, particularly the middle-eastern looking ones pictured.
No it is a depiction of an actual event whereby thousands of people walked into Europe without being registered or otherwise. It was a dangerous extreme left moment of open border anarchism from Merkel and friends.
The poster is not designed with this level of complex intention, and it doesn't anticipate that level of complex recognition in response. The message is simple.
In the future, I would be grateful if you would do me and my fellow independent committee members the courtesy of consulting the public record before writing letters such as that which I received on Monday.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
The horror of it...Watford of all places....at least it isn't Luton I guess...No wonder so many people think metro elite are out of touch.
QT panel could be feisty: "David Dimbleby presents topical debate from York. On the panel are musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof, Labour's former home secretary Alan Johnson MP, Conservative education secretary Nicky Morgan MP, economist Ruth Lea, Leave campaigner and former Labour minister Tom Harris and the novelist and former Conservative MP Louise Mensch."
Well I won't be watching that. It will be "Givvvve us your f##kin money" screaming and shouting like Eddie Izzard last week.
I really really really wish QT would drop this BS of putting celebs on the panel. The most sensible member of that panel and one that I would like to hear speak, Ruth Lea, will do well to get an word in edge ways.
Final outing for Nicky Morgan though.
I think she's out of the cabinet regardless of the outcome. And she can thank Osborne for that.
I think we can add Carney to the list of those whom Leave will hunt down after their win next week. Leave are sounding vengeful. I also suspect that Farage will defect to the Tories and be given a by-election in a safe seat once the incumbent has been ousted. Surely Tatton or Witney - the brutal symbolism of Tory pro-europeanism utterly crushed will be too tempting to resist.
They had a referendum on it a couple of years ago which the SVP won very narrowly. The EU has continued as normal with Switzerland's single market status while they have introduced restrictions on EU migrants. The EU are just waiting for this referendum to be over before they use the Lichtenstein solution and just let the emergency brake continue indefinitely or until migration pressures reduce to a level where Switzerland decided to rescind it.
What restrictions have they introduced? My understanding is that they have actually done very little out of concern for putting access to the single market at risk.
It's complicated. Liechtenstein and Iceland are in the EEA; Switzerland isn't in the EEA but has a separate bilateral arrangement.
Liechtenstein negotiated a partial opt out of the key EEA freedom of movement principle, where EEA citizens are allowed to work in the principality but (mostly) not to live there. As the liveable, non-mountainous area of Liechtenstein is about the size of the postage stamps they flog, that's understandable. It was supposed to be a temporary arrangement but seems to have become permanent, as these things do.
Switzerland held a referendum in 2014 to restrict EU immigration into the country in contravention of the bilateral agreements. This move has been rejected by the EU, but is supposed to come in unilaterally next year, per the referendum question. It's an ongoing dispute.
Iceland pulled the emergency brake on freedom of movement - the article in the EEA treaty that Max refers to - in 2008 along with capital controls etc. In principle this is still a temporary measure.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
How on earth do you manage to arrange your finances in order to go bust on a "leave" vote ?!
It may well cost me a few quid but does the whole of London have 5% equity mortgages or some such ?
Quick question for the Conservative Remainers. Put yourself forward a week after Britain has decided for better or worse to vote "Brexit".
If you were armed with this foresight back in 2015 (Of course noone is - but that isn't the question), would you have prefferred a Labour lead Ed Miliband Gov't back in May 2015.
Genuine question.
No, another coalition would have kept the maniacs in their caves.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect
This is truly terrifying. An out-an-out bigot will be in the British cabinet within weeks.
A huge realignment of politics is in the air if we vote Leave. Surely moderate Tories have to join forces with moderate Labour and stop this insanity?
Given Crick's dislike for UKIP and given he hasn't named a source and given Channel 4 News is widely ignored when it comes to covering anything outside of the liberal bubble I'd say this is less terrifying and more 'completely unsubstantiated'
Hasn't Farage dismissed this already on Twitter. Old news . . .
Quick question for the Conservative Remainers. Put yourself forward a week after Britain has decided for better or worse to vote "Brexit".
If you were armed with this foresight back in 2015 (Of course noone is - but that isn't the question), would you have prefferred a Labour lead Ed Miliband Gov't back in May 2015.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Hague was the first UK politician to take anti-EU demagoguery into the mainstream. He'll deserve his share of the blame if we vote to Leave next week.
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Hague was the first UK politician to take anti-EU demagoguery into the mainstream. He'll deserve his share of the blame if we vote to Leave next week.
So you think he was wrong to warn about the Euro then. Hmm. You seem to have been asleep for the last 6 or 7 years as the Eurozone has lurched from one crisis to another.
Golly, Carney has gone off the deep end according to Sky.
I think those Leaver MPs who think it is clever to undermine the Governor of the Bank of England when we will need him to help calm the markets in the event of a Leave vote need their heads examining. Britons are entitled to vote Leave but the BoE has a job to do to ensure that the immediate consequences are handled calmly and with as little disruption as possible. Pissing off the people charged with that job is a sign of political immaturity and seriously makes me wonder whether I would wish to entrust my country to people with such poor judgment, frankly.
I completely agree. If Carney had endorsed Osborne's tragic budget that would be one thing. He's behaved with complete propriety and simply performed his statutory duties. Jenkins is an idiot.
He's a very naughty boy and has been given a public spanking.....
QT panel could be feisty: "David Dimbleby presents topical debate from York. On the panel are musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof, Labour's former home secretary Alan Johnson MP, Conservative education secretary Nicky Morgan MP, economist Ruth Lea, Leave campaigner and former Labour minister Tom Harris and the novelist and former Conservative MP Louise Mensch."
Well I won't be watching that. It will be "Givvvve us your f##kin money" screaming and shouting like Eddie Izzard last week.
I really really really wish QT would drop this BS of putting celebs on the panel. The most sensible member of that panel and one that I would like to hear speak, Ruth Lea, will do well to get an word in edge ways.
Final outing for Nicky Morgan though.
I think she's out of the cabinet regardless of the outcome. And she can thank Osborne for that.
My agent, who was very much on the fence, and possibly swinging to LEAVE, has plumped for REMAiN on the grounds that her husband will go bust with LEAVE and she'll "have to live in a semi in Watford"
I reckon the Worried Professionals will still swing this for REMAIN.
The horror of it...Watford of all places....at least it isn't Luton I guess...No wonder so many people think metro elite are out of touch.
Are there enough "worried professionals" to swing back against the tide of anger that Farage and Boris have whipped up with their lies?
The will of the people is for higher wages, more public spending, no tax rises, much lower immigration, cheaper housing and more jobs. Leave have told voters they will get all that. It's all going to be wonderful, so why would there be any arguments? :-)
All of that is possible, but it depends on higher wages which is hard to achieve within a system which has an essentially unlimited poll of unskilled workers. Switzerland has proved you can have a society with low taxation, decent public services and high wages.
If we end up with a Swiss-style relationship with the EU then millions of voters who were promised substantially lower immigration are going to be furious.
Switzerland have pulled their emergency brake, and much like Lichtenstein it looks like the EU will end up caving and just let it continue indefinitely.
Have they? When did that happen?
They had a referendum on it a couple of years ago which the SVP won very narrowly. The EU has continued as normal with Switzerland's single market status while they have introduced restrictions on EU migrants. The EU are just waiting for this referendum to be over before they use the Lichtenstein solution and just let the emergency brake continue indefinitely or until migration pressures reduce to a level where Switzerland decided to rescind it.
What restrictions have they introduced? My understanding is that they have actually done very little out of concern for putting access to the single market at risk.
Some unskilled migrants are being rejected, and unrestricted right to resettle has been rescinded.
the Swiss were still at loggerheads with the EU over freedom of movement in March 2016 and hadn't yet implemented anything. Has this actually changed yet? Where have you heard about unskilled migrants are being rejected?
He could have exited with dignity instead of exiting through public ridicule. He will be mocked over this for the rest of his life. It will also be well deserved.
Just like Hague was mocked for warning about the Euro, I suppose?
Hague was the first UK politician to take anti-EU demagoguery into the mainstream. He'll deserve his share of the blame if we vote to Leave next week.
So you think he was wrong to warn about the Euro then. Hmm. You seem to have been asleep for the last 6 or 7 years as the Eurozone has lurched from one crisis to another.
He was wrong to go around shouting 'Save the Pound'. He helped debase the argument on Europe because he had nothing to offer the public on anything they cared about in 2001.
Comments
I was a union rep for fifteen years, and at the branch council one day, the full-time rep gave us all a bit of good advice. Never recommend to your members something they don't agree with. The Labour party and some of the unions have failed to heed that message.
Len is a political animal, but he is what he is. Some of the Labour MPs have only just listened to the non-metropolitan, less-middle class voters and it's come as a shock.
Anti-Tory feelings may be ingrained in them, so urging them to vote against their own wishes to support Cameron/Osborne is playing with fire.
However, the public mood is perhaps captured by these two poll findings;
81% of people felt there was 'some risk' in leaving;
61% of people were prepared to accept the chance of economic slowdown;
I think a great many people have reached the point of concluding that things can't go on like this.
Some of Britain's woes are not management issues; they are systemic ones.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/the-rock-of-remain-why-gibraltar-is-rejecting-brexit
Carney has sent him a three page !!!! letter and sounds very grumpy.
EDIT for @Morris_Dancer too
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/743386554295525377
It clearly does.
I currently live in France, but will be moving back to the UK for a year between late 2016/2017. After that year I would be intending to move back to France.
How would leaving affect my plans here? assuming we follow the article 50 route the earliest we would leave is 2018 so I should be able to move back without an issue, but I could be kicked out once we leave as I will only have moved back after a brexit vote, so will those acquired rights still count (if they ever were to count at all)?
I thought this was 'impossible'.
Well said.
Politician parades dad in front of tv cameras to back up 'story'.
Paper phones dad and reproduces verbatim his his words, suggesting that business closed before implimentation of CFP quotas.
Politician goes off on one about exploiting sick, old dad.
Perhaps politician shouldn't have exploited sick, old dad in the first place.
From Labour's perspective who are the "moderates". The people despairing that their voters are voting for bigotry and racism. The people who abstained on welfare cuts to the poorest. The people who think the best alternative to Tory privatisation and marketisation is Labour privatisation and marketisation.
When you are that far removed from your own party membership and more importantly the electorate you are not "moderate".
A new One Nation party with Cameron Clegg and Blair aficionados all on board. A marvellous prospect for all of us who want to see a return to proper Tory and Labour parties.
The focus now needs to be on delivery of that and also of all the other stuff that has been promised.
I really really really wish QT would drop this BS of putting celebs on the panel. The most sensible member of that panel and one that I would like to hear speak, Ruth Lea, will do well to get an word in edge ways.
Buy their bullshit? A man would be better off buying magic beans.
Either way, we are in purdah and it would be improper for Carney to make any statements on the subject, he will have to wait until after the 23rd.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1291672/now-even-one-of-labours-top-team-wants-out-of-the-eu-in-a-fresh-blow-to-remain-campaign/
I think some celebrities would be quite good (intelligent ones) but the handwringing nonsense of people who think their fame makes them worth listening to on political matters is not pleasing.
Izzard going on about humanity as if we're going to start stoning homosexuals and sending children up chimneys if we leave was simply pathetic.
In practice, I'd expect the UK and other EU countries to grant each other's citizens reciprocal rights of residence, but probably involving more bureaucracy and not automatically as of right. Also your healthcare costs might become much more expensive.
See here:
http://www.connexionfrance.com/Vienna-Convention-1969-expats-rights-residence-Brexit-17867-view-article.html
Jeez, the EU luvvies really don't get democracy.
If you were armed with this foresight back in 2015 (Of course noone is - but that isn't the question), would you have prefferred a Labour lead Ed Miliband Gov't back in May 2015.
Genuine question.
In the future, I would be grateful if you would do me and my fellow independent committee members the courtesy of consulting the public record before writing letters such as that which I received on Monday.
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/news/2016/governorletter140616.pdf
What UKinEU settlement?
I thought Cameron's EU negotiations had already been decided?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwMVMbmQBug
Liechtenstein negotiated a partial opt out of the key EEA freedom of movement principle, where EEA citizens are allowed to work in the principality but (mostly) not to live there. As the liveable, non-mountainous area of Liechtenstein is about the size of the postage stamps they flog, that's understandable. It was supposed to be a temporary arrangement but seems to have become permanent, as these things do.
Switzerland held a referendum in 2014 to restrict EU immigration into the country in contravention of the bilateral agreements. This move has been rejected by the EU, but is supposed to come in unilaterally next year, per the referendum question. It's an ongoing dispute.
Iceland pulled the emergency brake on freedom of movement - the article in the EEA treaty that Max refers to - in 2008 along with capital controls etc. In principle this is still a temporary measure.
It may well cost me a few quid but does the whole of London have 5% equity mortgages or some such ?
We could vote Remain, and the EU could still veto the deal (think it has to go through the Parliament).
What UKinEU settlement? What can he offer though. Restrictions on free movement isn't going to fly, so what else, free owls for every UK citizen?
Swiss announce unilateral safeguard clause to curb immigration
the Swiss were still at loggerheads with the EU over freedom of movement in March 2016 and hadn't yet implemented anything. Has this actually changed yet? Where have you heard about unskilled migrants are being rejected?
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