I went to a meeting of Labour Leave in Luton, addressed by Kelvin Hopkins and Douglas Nicholls, last night. In contrast to Jeremy Corbyn (whom they both strongly support) they both rejected the principle of free movement of people within the EU. they both view it as a way of pushing down wages and see the EU as anti-trade union.
Vote Leave for 2p on income tax. Doorstep line from here on in?
Dangerous. If Leave wins, Osborne and his 2p are history. If Remain wins, Osborne will stay in place and voters now know he might consider such action if another problem comes along.
Threatening the NHS budget is beyond stupid - it's taken years to get some trust back on this issue, and Osborne's just dumped the whole extra spending/ring fencing in one last gasp.
I'd be incensed if I cared that much about the Tories anymore.
What are you now? Ex Labour, Cameroon Tory. Farage kipper - maybe Britain first - any body's guess.
I'm not sure if George is acting like a spoilt child, or is it more akin to the inspector in 'On the buses' - "I'll get you for this Blakey."
No, I think it may be the spoilt, posh boy who reacts with fury when he fails to get his own way.
It can only be an act of desperation, as it's a high-risk strategy. It would have more effect if anyone trusted him to find his own arse with a roadmap and compass. And it will certainly remind Labour voters why they vote the way they do.
Little Lord Fauntleroy is having a hissy fit.
Sorry for all the stereotypes, but it's like a cartoon character come to life.
I was never in the group that disliked George - I was pretty neutral about him. Now, I can see why many felt he was punchable. What a strange beast this campaign has turned out to be. So many reputations made and destroyed. And not the ones I expected.
I think that a lot of Labour and Conservative politicians are discovering that they've little in common with other politicians in their own party, or their own voters.
I think (in general terms) the most enthusiastic Leavers are people who favour tradition, nation states, and sovereignty. The most enthusiastic Remainers are people who favour supranational institutions, and the free movement of people and capital. That division cuts through traditional party lines, so you now have right wing voters splitting about 70/30 for the former, and left wing voters splitting about 2/1 for the latter.
This campaign has helped to clarify where people stand.
True but an investment banker who likes the single market and free movement may vote Remain and a trade unionist who is concerned about immigration may vote Leave, who is more right or leftwing?
Whatever the outcome of the referendum Osborne has just trashed the Conservative image on schools and hospitals.
Labour can now say, with full justification, that Osborne is planning cuts there.
I also note Osborne's threat to make defence cuts.
More longstanding PBers will remember how certain PB Tories promised to leave the party if defence spending was ever cut. Perhaps they will be full of fury with Osborne today. Or perhaps not.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
I don't see the Tories as a divided Party. They are united for LEAVE, apart from a handful of LibDems who infiltrated them and seized the leadership after real Tories had managed, for the first time ever under universal suffrage, to lose three elections in a row.
They will win well over 400 seats at the next GE, maybe even 500 - and the SNP will become Her Majesty's Loyal opposition
A plurality of Tory MPs back Remain, if Remain narrowly win UKIP will eat into their vote as the LDs did the Labour vote after Iraq
I'm not sure if George is acting like a spoilt child, or is it more akin to the inspector in 'On the buses' - "I'll get you for this Blakey."
No, I think it may be the spoilt, posh boy who reacts with fury when he fails to get his own way.
It can only be an act of desperation, as it's a high-risk strategy. It would have more effect if anyone trusted him to find his own arse with a roadmap and compass. And it will certainly remind Labour voters why they vote the way they do.
Little Lord Fauntleroy is having a hissy fit.
Sorry for all the stereotypes, but it's like a cartoon character come to life.
I was never in the group that disliked George - I was pretty neutral about him. Now, I can see why many felt he was punchable. What a strange beast this campaign has turned out to be. So many reputations made and destroyed. And not the ones I expected.
I think that a lot of Labour and Conservative politicians are discovering that they've little in common with other politicians in their own party, or their own voters.
I think (in general terms) the most enthusiastic Leavers are people who favour tradition, nation states, and sovereignty. The most enthusiastic Remainers are people who favour supranational institutions, and the free movement of people and capital. That division cuts through traditional party lines, so you now have right wing voters splitting about 70/30 for the former, and left wing voters splitting about 2/1 for the latter.
This campaign has helped to clarify where people stand.
Intenationalists versus nationaists. The Spanish civil war all over again. You're with Franco's lot. We're with Orwell
@rottenborough I don't think they're panicking as much as genuinely angry. But what's driving their anger especially is the lurking realisation that Brexit would have to be paid for and that it would be costly.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
I don't see the Tories as a divided Party. They are united for LEAVE, apart from a handful of LibDems who infiltrated them and seized the leadership after real Tories had managed, for the first time ever under universal suffrage, to lose three elections in a row.
They will win well over 400 seats at the next GE, maybe even 500 - and the SNP will become Her Majesty's Loyal opposition
A plurality of Tory MPs back Remain, if Remain narrowly win UKIP will eat into their vote as the LDs did the Labour vote after Iraq
That's a maybe. The Remain MPs will be a combination of genuine believers, Cameron loyalists and careerists. Many of the later group told their CCPs that they were eurosceptics. I suspect the first group is actually pretty small.
It seems to me that Leave are the ones panicking this morning.
Not at all. Another day another Remain fuck up.
Monday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch. Tuesday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch where they proceed to trash freedom of movement. Wednesday - Another disastrous budget from Osborne which thanks to the 57 honourable Tory MPs will never happen.
The judiciary can find reasons if required: amongst other things their role is to act as a thoughtful check on the idiocies of politicans. Look at, for example, parliamentary attempts to stop courts ruling on legislation by drafting clauses to the effect that the judiciary cannot rule on the subject. The same would apply here if they thought it appropriate.
I think most judges would think long and hard before ruling in the opposite direction to the views of Denning.
And your reasoning for that assertion is? They are an evilly unelected judiciary after all an in Sumption the SC has one of the most intellectually assertive members since Atkin.
It seems to me that Leave are the ones panicking this morning.
Not at all. Another day another Remain fuck up.
Monday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch. Tuesday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch where they proceed to trash freedom of movement. Wednesday - Another disastrous budget from Osborne which thanks to the 57 honourable Tory MPs will never happen.
I suspect Osborne and Cameron are just warming up. One week to go.
@rottenborough I don't think they're panicking as much as genuinely angry. But what's driving their anger especially is the lurking realisation that Brexit would have to be paid for and that it would be costly.
Nope - yet again, it is because he is trashing the party's reputation.
George is framing the debate in a way that is advantageous to his side. Its what he does. And he is good at it.
He is toast, should be tarred and feathered and run out of town tied to Cameron's back.
Just out of interest - do you think the SNP would welcome a general election (and support a vote of no-confidence) given that there's not much room for gains for them?
Be a tough one for them but expectation would be that they would stuff the Tories given the opportunity so whilst of little benefit they would likely have to do it for longer term reasons. Not knifing the Tories would not go down well with a lot of people.
@rottenborough I don't think they're panicking as much as genuinely angry. But what's driving their anger especially is the lurking realisation that Brexit would have to be paid for and that it would be costly.
Yep, and completely and utterly self-inflicted for spurious gains which will make no difference to people's daily lives.
I'm not sure if George is acting like a spoilt child, or is it more akin to the inspector in 'On the buses' - "I'll get you for this Blakey."
No, I think it may be the spoilt, posh boy who reacts with fury when he fails to get his own way.
It can only be an act of desperation, as it's a high-risk strategy. It would have more effect if anyone trusted him to find his own arse with a roadmap and compass. And it will certainly remind Labour voters why they vote the way they do.
Little Lord Fauntleroy is having a hissy fit.
Sorry for all the stereotypes, but it's like a cartoon character come to life.
I was never in the group that disliked George - I was pretty neutral about him. Now, I can see why many felt he was punchable. What a strange beast this campaign has turned out to be. So many reputations made and destroyed. And not the ones I expected.
I think that a lot of Labour and Conservative politicians are discovering that they've little in common with other politicians in their own party, or their own voters.
I think (in general terms) the most enthusiastic Leavers are people who favour tradition, nation states, and sovereignty. The most enthusiastic Remainers are people who favour supranational institutions, and the free movement of people and capital. That division cuts through traditional party lines, so you now have right wing voters splitting about 70/30 for the former, and left wing voters splitting about 2/1 for the latter.
This campaign has helped to clarify where people stand.
True but an investment banker who likes the single market and free movement may vote Remain and a trade unionist who is concerned about immigration may vote Leave, who is more right or leftwing?
Hard to say, these days. A couple of elections hence, you could find Rotherham voting for the main right wing party, and Cities of London and Westminster voting for the main left wing party.
This campaign has helped clarify my own thinking. I've realised that economics is not the most important thing in politics.
While Britain is running a large deficit, MPs do not have the only or even necessarily the decisive voice in budgetary matters. The markets need to be kept assuaged also. Determinedly ignoring a new hole in public funding would not do much to help on that front.
But as @AnotherRichard wisely points out (though not on this occasion for some reason), the money can always be found for the pet projects of those holding the reins of power, no matter how vast the sum.
Money will be found if its needed after a Leave vote.
If.
What happens after a Leave vote economically we don't yet know.
The only rough example we have to go on would be what happened after Britain left the ERM in 1992 which saw a rapid improvement in the economy:
and not the three million job losses, car factories shutting down, City relocating to Frankfurt and Sterling becoming 'as worthless as the Ukranian Coupon' as the government had previously predicted.
Osborne has just done Leave a huge favour. By threatening a childishly petulant 'revenge budget' all he has done is confirm that Remain have lost the argument and do not have the British public's interest at heart. He needs to go now. As do we. Vote Leave.
Osborne's anti-vow is in its own way quite revealing. The government can't offer anything about immigration if we remain in the EU, they have belatedly realised that is a fool's errand. The government can't offer EU reform, Cameron has personally demonstrated that that will fail. So even though the blackmail budget might be politically effective it also highlights the fact that the UK's position in the EU will never be a happy one. I don't think we have heard the end of the arguing even if Remain wins.
@rottenborough I wrote last week about how Brexit would be a hammer blow for the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence. The argument today is a foretaste of why.
@rottenborough I don't think they're panicking as much as genuinely angry. But what's driving their anger especially is the lurking realisation that Brexit would have to be paid for and that it would be costly.
Nope - yet again, it is because he is trashing the party's reputation.
Spot on - decades to get trusted and zapped in one day. Everyone who was suspicious about Tory motives have had a giant dollop of *evidence* for their fears splashed all over the frontpages. I can hear voters thinking "I knew we couldn't trust them, same old Tories".
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
Wiser Tories will want to put as loooooooong a gap as possible between this debacle and facing the electorate again......2020 might be long enough....
Indeed. We have nearly 4 years for the result of this referendum to be implemented (one way or the other), for a new leader to replace Cameron and for a new united front to be put forwards on a new program of competent governance. It will be long enough, especially if a leave vote occurs as that will end the Tory split on the EU.
Almost as long as the time between the tuition fees vote and the 2015 general election in fact!
I'm not sure if George is acting like a spoilt child, or is it more akin to the inspector in 'On the buses' - "I'll get you for this Blakey."
No, I think it may be the spoilt, posh boy who reacts with fury when he fails to get his own way.
It can only be an act of desperation, as it's a high-risk strategy. It would have more effect if anyone trusted him to find his own arse with a roadmap and compass. And it will certainly remind Labour voters why they vote the way they do.
Little Lord Fauntleroy is having a hissy fit.
Sorry for all the stereotypes, but it's like a cartoon character come to life.
I was never in the group that disliked George - I was pretty neutral about him. Now, I can see why many felt he was punchable. What a strange beast this campaign has turned out to be. So many reputations made and destroyed. And not the ones I expected.
I think that a lot of Labour and Conservative politicians are discovering that they've little in common with other politicians in their own party, or their own voters.
I think (in general terms) the most enthusiastic Leavers are people who favour tradition, nation states, and sovereignty. The most enthusiastic Remainers are people who favour supranational institutions, and the free movement of people and capital. That division cuts through traditional party lines, so you now have right wing voters splitting about 70/30 for the former, and left wing voters splitting about 2/1 for the latter.
This campaign has helped to clarify where people stand.
True but an investment banker who likes the single market and free movement may vote Remain and a trade unionist who is concerned about immigration may vote Leave, who is more right or leftwing?
Hard to say, these days. A couple of elections hence, you could find Rotherham voting for the main right wing party, and Cities of London and Westminster voting for the main left wing party.
This campaign has helped clarify my own thinking. I've realised that economics is not the most important thing in politics.
Just watched last nights Telegraph / Huffington town hall debate. Salmond did real damage to Johnstone. Remain should get him on and bin the Darling and Osborne establishment carve up.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
Wiser Tories will want to put as loooooooong a gap as possible between this debacle and facing the electorate again......2020 might be long enough....
a leave vote......will end the Tory split on the EU.
No it won't.
But its interesting to read how Tory LEAVErs regard the REMAINers as the cause of the split....
There won't be Tory Remainers if the nation has voted Leave. The Tory Remainers will look after number one and 'respect the will of the British electorate'.
The judiciary can find reasons if required: amongst other things their role is to act as a thoughtful check on the idiocies of politicans. Look at, for example, parliamentary attempts to stop courts ruling on legislation by drafting clauses to the effect that the judiciary cannot rule on the subject. The same would apply here if they thought it appropriate.
I think most judges would think long and hard before ruling in the opposite direction to the views of Denning.
And your reasoning for that assertion is? They are an evilly unelected judiciary after all an in Sumption the SC has one of the most intellectually assertive members since Atkin.
Sumption is on record as saying that judges and especially EU judges trespass too much on matters that should be left to parliament.
Who is running the top of the Remain campaign? Dumb and Dumber's pig-shit thick country cousins?
A grown up in that campaign should have taken Osborne to one side and punched him until he stopped speaking. He is utterly toxic, yet somebody thinks he is still what the public wants to hear?
Remain, in the last week, how about you lift your sights from trying to keep Osborne's near-zero leadership ambitions alive. And think a little loftier than STOP BORIS.
I keep getting a LabourLeave banner on PB which pictures Cameron and Osborne and telling me to wipe the smile off their faces by voting Leave.
On a more general note this government's previous problems on pensions, benefits and school academisation all originate with Osborne.
@thhamilton: REMAIN/LEAVE: If the UK leaves the EU, our economy will be transformed. REMAIN: On that basis, we'll need a new Budget. LEAVE: Noooooo!
Well, quite...
What Leave is effectively saying is that we should stick with the budget even though this was designed to implement policies predicated on high levels of EU immigration. Can anyone explain how that makes sense?
We're not leaving the EU for at least 2 years no matter what. So a panicky budget on the 24th June is entirely unnecessary.
It is yet more desperate scaremongering. The tragedy is that Cameron was not very far away from making a good case that Britain could go alone, and he could have been in a good position to lead that Britain.
not now. He and Osborne must surely walk if they lose
@rottenborough I don't think they're panicking as much as genuinely angry. But what's driving their anger especially is the lurking realisation that Brexit would have to be paid for and that it would be costly.
Nope - yet again, it is because he is trashing the party's reputation.
Spot on - decades to get trusted and zapped in one day. Everyone who was suspicious about Tory motives have had a giant dollop of *evidence* for their fears splashed all over the frontpages. I can hear voters thinking "I knew we couldn't trust them, same old Tories".
Threatening the disabled yesterday and the NHS today. Cameron and Osborne are clearly willing to sacrifice the party to remain in the EU. It speaks volumes that Osborne left foreign aid completely untouched.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
Wiser Tories will want to put as loooooooong a gap as possible between this debacle and facing the electorate again......2020 might be long enough....
Indeed. We have nearly 4 years for the result of this referendum to be implemented (one way or the other), for a new leader to replace Cameron and for a new united front to be put forwards on a new program of competent governance. It will be long enough, especially if a leave vote occurs as that will end the Tory split on the EU.
Almost as long as the time between the tuition fees vote and the 2015 general election in fact!
A few differences.
Tuition Fees - the LDs did the opposite of their manifesto promise. Referendum - the Tories are fulfilling their manifesto promise.
Tuition Fees - Clegg clung on until the election Referendum - Cameron is resigning and a new leader will be in place.
But yeah other than being completed different it will be just about the same.
@rottenborough I wrote last week about how Brexit would be a hammer blow for the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence. The argument today is a foretaste of why.
Who is running the top of the Remain campaign? Dumb and Dumber's pig-shit thick country cousins?
A grown up in that campaign should have taken Osborne to one side and punched him until he stopped speaking. He is utterly toxic, yet somebody thinks he is still what the public wants to hear?
Remain, in the last week, how about you lift your sights from trying to keep Osborne's near-zero leadership ambitions alive. And think a little loftier than STOP BORIS.
I keep getting a LabourLeave banner on PB which pictures Cameron and Osborne and telling me to wipe the smile off their faces by voting Leave.
On a more general note this government's previous problems on pensions, benefits and school academisation all originate with Osborne.
And you would have thought that having to back down so quickly on such comparatively 'tame' stuff would have been enough to prevent Osborne from making this sort of pledge. Incidentally I note that markets are up today - obviously yesterday's pre-occupation with Brexit was endemic and long-lasting!
Osborne has just done Leave a huge favour. By threatening a childishly petulant 'revenge budget' all he has done is confirm that Remain have lost the argument and do not have the British public's interest at heart. He needs to go now. As do we. Vote Leave.
Your "childishly petulant" = many peoples' household budgets.
They are all British manufacturing operations closing and being moved to Poland, Slovakia, Turkey etc with the help of generous EU grants and/or loans
THE EU, LOOKING AFTER BRITISH JOBS.
Yes. And if the EU had no mandate to protect UK jobs, post Brexit, then this list would be what? four times? eight times? ten times? longer.
Vote Brexit and Stop the EU looking after British jobs.
What the hell are you talking about, the EU paid those companies money to close their UK operations and move them to eastern EU. They are able to claim back from the EU up to a third of their first two years capital cost and wage bill, which is a massive leg up, meanwhile we are forbidden to reciprocate with any sort of state aid.
12.5% of the EU budget comes from the UK, so we are in effect paying to have our own companies paid to move jobs away from the UK, only in the EU!
Threatening the disabled yesterday and the NHS today. Cameron and Osborne are clearly willing to sacrifice the party to remain in the EU. It speaks volumes that Osborne left foreign aid completely untouched.
They seem to have decided that winning the referendum is so important that confirming the sort of things Labour says about the Tories to be true is a small price to pay.
It seems to me that Leave are the ones panicking this morning.
Not at all. Another day another Remain fuck up.
Monday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch. Tuesday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch where they proceed to trash freedom of movement. Wednesday - Another disastrous budget from Osborne which thanks to the 57 honourable Tory MPs will never happen.
I suspect Osborne and Cameron are just warming up.
Just watched last nights Telegraph / Huffington town hall debate. Salmond did real damage to Johnstone. Remain should get him on and bin the Darling and Osborne establishment carve up.
Agreed. Remain should put Salmond front and center.
It seems to me that Leave are the ones panicking this morning.
Not at all. Another day another Remain fuck up.
Monday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch. Tuesday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch where they proceed to trash freedom of movement. Wednesday - Another disastrous budget from Osborne which thanks to the 57 honourable Tory MPs will never happen.
I suspect Osborne and Cameron are just warming up. One week to go.
Cameron and Osborne trashing the Conservatives economic image and showing that their spending pledges on health, education and defence are worthless.
Not forgetting the threats to make cuts on pensioners and the disabled.
Who is running the top of the Remain campaign? Dumb and Dumber's pig-shit thick country cousins?
A grown up in that campaign should have taken Osborne to one side and punched him until he stopped speaking. He is utterly toxic, yet somebody thinks he is still what the public wants to hear?
Remain, in the last week, how about you lift your sights from trying to keep Osborne's near-zero leadership ambitions alive. And think a little loftier than STOP BORIS.
I keep getting a LabourLeave banner on PB which pictures Cameron and Osborne and telling me to wipe the smile off their faces by voting Leave.
On a more general note this government's previous problems on pensions, benefits and school academisation all originate with Osborne.
Incidentally I note that markets are up today - obviously yesterday's pre-occupation with Brexit was endemic and long-lasting!
Must be reaction to the "Osborne is toast" meme....
It seems to me that Leave are the ones panicking this morning.
Not at all. Another day another Remain fuck up.
Monday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch. Tuesday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch where they proceed to trash freedom of movement. Wednesday - Another disastrous budget from Osborne which thanks to the 57 honourable Tory MPs will never happen.
I suspect Osborne and Cameron are just warming up.
Osborne has just done Leave a huge favour. By threatening a childishly petulant 'revenge budget' all he has done is confirm that Remain have lost the argument and do not have the British public's interest at heart. He needs to go now. As do we. Vote Leave.
Your "childishly petulant" = many peoples' household budgets.
"With no macro-economic levers left to pull if things go wrong, this is not the time to be further upsetting the apple cart."
@rottenborough I wrote last week about how Brexit would be a hammer blow for the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence. The argument today is a foretaste of why.
Nah. It'll all be forgotten very fast. We can all see it for what it is: petulant tantrums because they're about to be kicked out of the nursery.
Well I was going to work this morning but I called in to say I wasn't turning up.
I listened to George on Radio 4 and he convinced me to vote Remain. Everyone has their price and mine is 2p on income tax.
I doubt though I will make it to the polling booths as I went straight to the builders' merchants and bought some steel plate, some planks and a MiG welder and I've just spent a productive half hour welding up my panic room in the loft. Clearly Western civilisation may well end next Friday, and orcs, trolls, Vandals, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and the Goths that hang around the bus shelter down the High St will be stalking the land come Friday lunchtime latest, eviscerating everyone and putting their entrails on display at Dewhursts. But thanks to George I shall be safely snug in my tin box between the eaves in the loft from now on. I won't be fooled to go out and vote next Thursday it's too scary to emerge for at least five years.
Sam Coates These Tory MPs say what the Chancellor is proposing today "makes his position untenable". Consequences for remain? https://t.co/lhXAVF3LKU
Osborne is a fecking idiot.
The first things he threatens to cut if things go against him, are all the things he promised he would never cut, conversely areas of spending which are unpopular already with Tory voters (such as International Aid) are curiously untouched.
He might has well have cycled around trafalgar square wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with "Liar liar pants on fire" and singing "untrustworthy tories are here again". Not only will it not help remain in the slightest, it's trashing his party's brand as hard as he can.
"Osborne tells Today he’d rely on Labour votes to pass the budget – that is laughable. Cameron and Osborne won’t be preparing an emergency budget if we vote to Leave, they’ll be calling the removal van…"
@rottenborough I wrote last week about how Brexit would be a hammer blow for the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence. The argument today is a foretaste of why.
Nah. It'll all be forgotten very fast. We can all see it for what it is: petulant tantrums because they're about to be kicked out of the nursery.
Have the British electorate ever voted for chaos before?
Not in my memory. As is obvious on here though not yet in the wider electorate a vote for 'Leave' will cause a maelstrom never before seen in British politics. Not in relation to Europe but in relation to governance at Westminster.
I wonder whether those backing Leave have priced this in? It's likely to become obvious this week-end
If that twonk Justinian hadn't buggered up the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy, which was open to an alliance, the history of Europe might have been rather better.
If that twonk Justinian hadn't buggered up the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy, which was open to an alliance, the history of Europe might have been rather better.
While Britain is running a large deficit, MPs do not have the only or even necessarily the decisive voice in budgetary matters. The markets need to be kept assuaged also. Determinedly ignoring a new hole in public funding would not do much to help on that front.
But as @AnotherRichard wisely points out (though not on this occasion for some reason), the money can always be found for the pet projects of those holding the reins of power, no matter how vast the sum.
Money will be found if its needed after a Leave vote.
If.
What happens after a Leave vote economically we don't yet know.
The only rough example we have to go on would be what happened after Britain left the ERM in 1992 which saw a rapid improvement in the economy:
and not the three million job losses, car factories shutting down, City relocating to Frankfurt and Sterling becoming 'as worthless as the Ukranian Coupon' as the government had previously predicted.
Had the government predicted those things if we left the ERM? I do not recall it.
Are you seriously suggesting that Brexit will be a spur to growth in the next couple of years?
@rottenborough I wrote last week about how Brexit would be a hammer blow for the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence. The argument today is a foretaste of why.
Nah. It'll all be forgotten very fast. We can all see it for what it is: petulant tantrums because they're about to be kicked out of the nursery.
I can feel a GE coming on at this rate.
Yes so can I. And that's one of the other reasons I suspect Labour voters may vote Leave.
F1: read last night Interlagos is at risk of being dropped.
It's probably my favourite circuit. But there's always room for a tedious trundle round a street circuit whose political master is willing to fling a few dollars Ecclestone's way.
I'm not sure if George is acting like a spoilt child, or is it more akin to the inspector in 'On the buses' - "I'll get you for this Blakey."
No, I think it may be the spoilt, posh boy who reacts with fury when he fails to get his own way.
It can only be an act of desperation, as it's a high-risk strategy. It would have more effect if anyone trusted him to find his own arse with a roadmap and compass. And it will certainly remind Labour voters why they vote the way they do.
Little Lord Fauntleroy is having a hissy fit.
Sorry for all the stereotypes, but it's like a cartoon character come to life.
I was never in the group that disliked George - I was pretty neutral about him. Now, I can see why many felt he was punchable. What a strange beast this campaign has turned out to be. So many reputations made and destroyed. And not the ones I expected.
I think that a lot of Labour and Conservative politicians are discovering that they've little in common with other politicians in their own party, or their own voters.
I think (in general terms) the most enthusiastic Leavers are people who favour tradition, nation states, and sovereignty. The most enthusiastic Remainers are people who favour supranational institutions, and the free movement of people and capital.
This campaign has helped to clarify where people stand.
True but an investment banker who likes the single market and free movement may vote Remain and a trade unionist who is concerned about immigration may vote Leave, who is more right or leftwing?
Hard to say, these days. A couple of elections hence, you could find Rotherham voting for the main right wing party, and Cities of London and Westminster voting for the main left wing party.
This campaign has helped clarify my own thinking. I've realised that economics is not the most important thing in politics.
Unless Labour is led by a Blairite and the Tories a Farage clone unlikely
Have the British electorate ever voted for chaos before?
Not in my memory. As is obvious on here though not yet in the wider electorate a vote for 'Leave' will cause a maelstrom never before seen in British politics. Not in relation to Europe but in relation to governance at Westminster.
I wonder whether those backing Leave have priced this in? It's likely to become obvious this week-end
It's going to be chaos either way, if it is a narrow Remain the atmosphere in the country and in parliament is going to be poisonous, and the focus of that poison is going to be Dave and George.
I'm not sure if George is acting like a spoilt child, or is it more akin to the inspector in 'On the buses' - "I'll get you for this Blakey."
No, I think it may be the spoilt, posh boy who reacts with fury when he fails to get his own way.
It can only be an act of desperation, as it's a high-risk strategy. It would have more effect if anyone trusted him to find his own arse with a roadmap and compass. And it will certainly remind Labour voters why they vote the way they do.
Little Lord Fauntleroy is having a hissy fit.
Sorry for all the stereotypes, but it's like a cartoon character come to life.
I was never in the group that disliked George - I was pretty neutral about him. Now, I can see why many felt he was punchable. What a strange beast this campaign has turned out to be. So many reputations made and destroyed. And not the ones I expected.
I think that a lot of Labour and Conservative politicians are discovering that they've little in common with other politicians in their own party, or their own voters.
I think (in general terms) the most enthusiastic Leavers are people who favour tradition, nation states, and sovereignty. The most enthusiastic Remainers are people who favour supranational institutions, and the free movement of people and capital. That division cuts through traditional party lines, so you now have right wing voters splitting about 70/30 for the former, and left wing voters splitting about 2/1 for the latter.
This campaign has helped to clarify where people stand.
True but an investment banker who likes the single market and free movement may vote Remain and a trade unionist who is concerned about immigration may vote Leave, who is more right or leftwing?
Hard to say, these days. A couple of elections hence, you could find Rotherham voting for the main right wing party, and Cities of London and Westminster voting for the main left wing party.
This campaign has helped clarify my own thinking. I've realised that economics is not the most important thing in politics.
"Cameron and Osborne won’t be preparing an emergency budget if we vote to Leave, they’ll be calling the removal van…"
"Osborne tells Today he’d rely on Labour votes to pass the budget"
Yep, I can see Labour being onside to prop up Osborne and not bring down the government.
This helps Remain hugely. They only have to get across the idea that anything other than the status quo will lead to chaos. If 50 Tory Mps signing a motion against their own government doesn't do it nothing will. George is smarter than he looks
"Cameron and Osborne won’t be preparing an emergency budget if we vote to Leave, they’ll be calling the removal van…"
"Osborne tells Today he’d rely on Labour votes to pass the budget"
Yep, I can see Labour being onside to prop up Osborne and not bring down the government.
This is starting to look like one of Osborne's too clever by half gambits. The press will surely ask Lab and the SNP if they would back this budget and both have to say 'no'. Then it is dead in the water.
Anyone who still thinks Cameron is safe from a confidence vote, even in the event of a Remain win, needs to look at just how quickly Steve Baker got his 57 signatures.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
I don't see the Tories as a divided Party. They are united for LEAVE, apart from a handful of LibDems who infiltrated them and seized the leadership after real Tories had managed, for the first time ever under universal suffrage, to lose three elections in a row.
They will win well over 400 seats at the next GE, maybe even 500 - and the SNP will become Her Majesty's Loyal opposition
A plurality of Tory MPs back Remain, if Remain narrowly win UKIP will eat into their vote as the LDs did the Labour vote after Iraq
That's a maybe. The Remain MPs will be a combination of genuine believers, Cameron loyalists and careerists. Many of the later group told their CCPs that they were eurosceptics. I suspect the first group is actually pretty small.
Have the British electorate ever voted for chaos before?
Not in my memory. As is obvious on here though not yet in the wider electorate a vote for 'Leave' will cause a maelstrom never before seen in British politics. Not in relation to Europe but in relation to governance at Westminster.
I wonder whether those backing Leave have priced this in? It's likely to become obvious this week-end
I think that we get chaos either way with the referendum, just different cocktails of chaos.
A Remain vote is probably the most effective way to destroy the Conservative party though, and to keep Labour united.
@rottenborough I wrote last week about how Brexit would be a hammer blow for the Conservatives' reputation for economic competence. The argument today is a foretaste of why.
Nah. It'll all be forgotten very fast. We can all see it for what it is: petulant tantrums because they're about to be kicked out of the nursery.
I can feel a GE coming on at this rate.
Yes so can I. And that's one of the other reasons I suspect Labour voters may vote Leave.
Nah. Two years of the steady hand of Gove at the Brexit tiller, whilst the Tory party light incense fires to perfume the halls currently smelling of bullshit and then allow a beauty parade of their talent to discover who is our leader for the 2020's....
@thhamilton: REMAIN/LEAVE: If the UK leaves the EU, our economy will be transformed. REMAIN: On that basis, we'll need a new Budget. LEAVE: Noooooo!
Well, quite...
You are full of bullshit. The Leavers are objecting to Osborne's specific lies about what he would do. Even if there needed to be a new budget, it would not be THIS budget.
And their budget would be...what? Run by whom?
That is why Leave is scary. Not because they are offering well-defined pain in exchange for "freedom". But because we genuinely do not know what would happen next.
Anyone who still thinks Cameron is safe from a confidence vote, even in the event of a Remain win, needs to look at just how quickly Steve Baker got his 57 signatures.
Bet accordingly.
I happen to think Leave will now probably win, so the point is moot as Cameron will be gone within weeks in any event.
But if the result is Remain, so a challenge is launched. Fine. Cameron will still win the vote.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
I don't see the Tories as a divided Party. They are united for LEAVE, apart from a handful of LibDems who infiltrated them and seized the leadership after real Tories had managed, for the first time ever under universal suffrage, to lose three elections in a row.
They will win well over 400 seats at the next GE, maybe even 500 - and the SNP will become Her Majesty's Loyal opposition
A plurality of Tory MPs back Remain, if Remain narrowly win UKIP will eat into their vote as the LDs did the Labour vote after Iraq
That's a maybe. The Remain MPs will be a combination of genuine believers, Cameron loyalists and careerists. Many of the later group told their CCPs that they were eurosceptics. I suspect the first group is actually pretty small.
If Remain win careerists will stay Remain
But they wont be selected to represent the party at the next election - so I hope they have some good stuff on their P45s.
"I was chosen by the party to represent them, based on my Eurosceptic profile - but I campaigned for 'Remain;" - doesn't look THAT good on a CV for anything - other than banking, advertising or the MI5 Twenty committee.
Removal of Cameron as leader followed by sacking of Osborne.
Next....
If the Brexiteers launch a coup (which is what you are proposing) I am not sure they would avoid a confidence vote.
It may be called by someone else (the SNP would be favourite) and I am not convinced a Tory majority would vote against it
Great - we'll have a general election. With more than half of the voters just having voted Leave, we'll (by which I mean those of us in the Tory party who don't want a blackmail budget) will likely win a majority.
A divided party will not win a majority.
I don't see the Tories as a divided Party. They are united for LEAVE, apart from a handful of LibDems who infiltrated them and seized the leadership after real Tories had managed, for the first time ever under universal suffrage, to lose three elections in a row.
They will win well over 400 seats at the next GE, maybe even 500 - and the SNP will become Her Majesty's Loyal opposition
A plurality of Tory MPs back Remain, if Remain narrowly win UKIP will eat into their vote as the LDs did the Labour vote after Iraq
That's a maybe. The Remain MPs will be a combination of genuine believers, Cameron loyalists and careerists. Many of the later group told their CCPs that they were eurosceptics. I suspect the first group is actually pretty small.
If Remain win careerists will stay Remain
Agreed, but the suggestion was that the Tories would not unite under Leave, I think they almost certainly will, the number of true believers (Heseltine, Ken Clarke etc) is probably less than a dozen and they are almost all ready to collect their pensions. The careerists and the loyalists will fall in behind a new Leaver leader. I doubt Dave and George will stay in the commons to cause trouble if they get kicked out, they can make much more money elsewhere without the constant flack they will get from everyone else.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico 9m9 minutes ago @iainmartin1@dpjhodges GDP impact in short term: yes. But since no long-term GDP loss, budget impact is only cyclical. So borrow.
You have to be kidding me? A self inflicted tonne of extra borrowing?
I really think that there will be a realignment of the political parties after this referendum. The vitriol that's been sprayed around cannot be just swept under the carpet.
57 Faragist MPs are openly threatening a coup, and the Brexiteers claim the other 600 MPs will cheer them on.
m'kay...
Following Brexit, the careerists will quickly forget their Mosleyite position on Europe and pretend they supported national sovereignty and democracy all along.
57 Faragist MPs are openly threatening a coup, and the Brexiteers claim the other 600 MPs will cheer them on.
m'kay...
You appear to be a little rusty on how many MPs are required to initial a motion of confidence in the Tory leadership, and how many get to vote in that motion.
I really think that there will be a realignment of the political parties after this referendum. The vitriol that's been sprayed around cannot be just swept under the carpet.
There certainly should be. With an introduction of PR by STV at the same time, otherwise it will fizzle out.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico 9m9 minutes ago @iainmartin1@dpjhodges GDP impact in short term: yes. But since no long-term GDP loss, budget impact is only cyclical. So borrow.
You have to be kidding me? A self inflicted tonne of extra borrowing?
On the other hand, maybe I should be grateful. At least in Acton there is just a sign in a shop. Since the start of the year there have been several reports from around London of a more aggressive approach. Television news footage last week showed incidents filmed on a mobile phone on a Saturday night, in the borough of Waltham Forest, of men shouting “This is a Muslim area” at white Britons.
The video commentary stated: “From women walking the street dressed like complete naked animals with no self-respect, to drunk people carrying alcohol, we try our best to capture and forbid it all.”
Another scene showed hooded youths forcing a man to drop his can of lager, telling him they were the “Muslim patrol” and that alcohol is a “forbidden evil”. The gang then approached a group of white girls enjoying a good night out, telling them to “forbid themselves from dressing like this and exposing themselves outside the mosque”.
Many Muslims believe that immigration is unIslamic. Muslims should only move to countries as conquerors. That is clearly the view these youths take.
Is Earth big enough for both Islam and Western culture? Only if we all want it to be.
@thhamilton: REMAIN/LEAVE: If the UK leaves the EU, our economy will be transformed. REMAIN: On that basis, we'll need a new Budget. LEAVE: Noooooo!
Well, quite...
You are full of bullshit. The Leavers are objecting to Osborne's specific lies about what he would do. Even if there needed to be a new budget, it would not be THIS budget.
And their budget would be...what? Run by whom?
That is why Leave is scary. Not because they are offering well-defined pain in exchange for "freedom". But because we genuinely do not know what would happen next.
To be fair, Osborne's blatant fibs on the emergency budget were called out here by lots of posters last night.
There is no way he would deliver an emergency budget which he'd be guaranteed to lose. You know the Commons better than me but wouldn't it be political suicide for him to do so?
Comments
Osborne's negotiating pitch to a tee....
The highest YEStoAV vote was in Hackney at 60.68%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum,_2011
A good tweet from Paul Mason.
Disturbing.
Monday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch.
Tuesday - Invisible Labour Remain re-launch where they proceed to trash freedom of movement.
Wednesday - Another disastrous budget from Osborne which thanks to the 57 honourable Tory MPs will never happen.
"Take Back Control" is a myth.
This campaign has helped clarify my own thinking. I've realised that economics is not the most important thing in politics.
If.
What happens after a Leave vote economically we don't yet know.
The only rough example we have to go on would be what happened after Britain left the ERM in 1992 which saw a rapid improvement in the economy:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq
and not the three million job losses, car factories shutting down, City relocating to Frankfurt and Sterling becoming 'as worthless as the Ukranian Coupon' as the government had previously predicted.
" 'We clear the decks for Labour to make a Labour case and they start falling out over immigration. Fucking moronic,' a Remain source fumed."
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/nov/08/supreme-court-appointee-judges-politicised
On a more general note this government's previous problems on pensions, benefits and school academisation all originate with Osborne.
It is yet more desperate scaremongering. The tragedy is that Cameron was not very far away from making a good case that Britain could go alone, and he could have been in a good position to lead that Britain.
not now. He and Osborne must surely walk if they lose
Tuition Fees - the LDs did the opposite of their manifesto promise.
Referendum - the Tories are fulfilling their manifesto promise.
Tuition Fees - Clegg clung on until the election
Referendum - Cameron is resigning and a new leader will be in place.
But yeah other than being completed different it will be just about the same.
12.5% of the EU budget comes from the UK, so we are in effect paying to have our own companies paid to move jobs away from the UK, only in the EU!
.@George_Osborne is panicked. His job is on the line. Labour voters should #VoteLeave and send him packing.
Not forgetting the threats to make cuts on pensioners and the disabled.
29 seconds in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS0LaoOXhQg
These Tory MPs say what the Chancellor is proposing today "makes his position untenable". Consequences for remain? https://t.co/lhXAVF3LKU
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/14/lets-not-sleepwalk-into-economic-and-geopolitical-catastrophe-wh/
I listened to George on Radio 4 and he convinced me to vote Remain. Everyone has their price and mine is 2p on income tax.
I doubt though I will make it to the polling booths as I went straight to the builders' merchants and bought some steel plate, some planks and a MiG welder and I've just spent a productive half hour welding up my panic room in the loft. Clearly Western civilisation may well end next Friday, and orcs, trolls, Vandals, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and the Goths that hang around the bus shelter down the High St will be stalking the land come Friday lunchtime latest, eviscerating everyone and putting their entrails on display at Dewhursts. But thanks to George I shall be safely snug in my tin box between the eaves in the loft from now on. I won't be fooled to go out and vote next Thursday it's too scary to emerge for at least five years.
Thank you George.
The first things he threatens to cut if things go against him, are all the things he promised he would never cut, conversely areas of spending which are unpopular already with Tory voters (such as International Aid) are curiously untouched.
He might has well have cycled around trafalgar square wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with "Liar liar pants on fire" and singing "untrustworthy tories are here again". Not only will it not help remain in the slightest, it's trashing his party's brand as hard as he can.
https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/742987891735953408
Bloody nora
"Osborne tells Today he’d rely on Labour votes to pass the budget – that is laughable. Cameron and Osborne won’t be preparing an emergency budget if we vote to Leave, they’ll be calling the removal van…"
Yep, I can see Labour being onside to prop up Osborne and not bring down the government.
Not in my memory. As is obvious on here though not yet in the wider electorate a vote for 'Leave' will cause a maelstrom never before seen in British politics. Not in relation to Europe but in relation to governance at Westminster.
I wonder whether those backing Leave have priced this in? It's likely to become obvious this week-end
Who is the brexit budget aimed at? - the undecided.
Who are the undecided? - labour voters?
The technique - a one two sucker punch. First Labour's day yesterday (good cop) and now George (bad cop).
A very targeted attack this week.
If that twonk Justinian hadn't buggered up the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy, which was open to an alliance, the history of Europe might have been rather better.
Are you seriously suggesting that Brexit will be a spur to growth in the next couple of years?
Exactly how many politicians on the Remain side actually want to win....
It's probably my favourite circuit. But there's always room for a tedious trundle round a street circuit whose political master is willing to fling a few dollars Ecclestone's way.
Bet accordingly.
A Remain vote is probably the most effective way to destroy the Conservative party though, and to keep Labour united.
That is why Leave is scary. Not because they are offering well-defined pain in exchange for "freedom". But because we genuinely do not know what would happen next.
But if the result is Remain, so a challenge is launched. Fine. Cameron will still win the vote.
"I was chosen by the party to represent them, based on my Eurosceptic profile - but I campaigned for 'Remain;" - doesn't look THAT good on a CV for anything - other than banking, advertising or the MI5 Twenty committee.
m'kay...
@iainmartin1 @dpjhodges GDP impact in short term: yes. But since no long-term GDP loss, budget impact is only cyclical. So borrow.
You have to be kidding me? A self inflicted tonne of extra borrowing?
Brexit HQ, BoZo Campaign Office"Sterling is down 10 cents, and the FTSE is off 500 points. What should we do?"
"Sack the guy who said this would happen"
"But he was right"
"Yeah, nobody likes a smartass..."
Is Earth big enough for both Islam and Western culture? Only if we all want it to be.
Also, PR is the work of Satan.
There is no way he would deliver an emergency budget which he'd be guaranteed to lose. You know the Commons better than me but wouldn't it be political suicide for him to do so?