Who gives a flying fudgecake what he demands? That's not the way democracy works in this country. Cameron demanded an early election in 2008 but we never got one did we?
The Government in 2008 had not lost a referendum it supported.
Apart from that, great example...
If the government falls a new government is appointed from within the MPs of Parliament. Same as when Thatcher fell after the poll tax riots etc. If Cameron goes there is no reason why Gove or Johnson can not take his place and serve out the rest of the term.
The opposition can demand chocolate rain and a Christmas that never ends, it isn't going to get it.
I've been assuming that Boris would be a shoe-in for the leadership. But after seeing Patel's swaggering around earlier with The Sun, it's clear that the Tory hard-right are emboldened and intend to own the Brexit victory. Boris and Gove might end up as useful stooges to be at once discarded. The new Tory leader might be Patel herself, an old agitator like Fox or Davis or - heaven forfend - even IDS in a Nixon-like comeback.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
You have a little hurdle of the Euro to get over....
The second paragraph is the relevant point. This referendum may determine what the policy of the Conservative party is going forward but it will remain a coalition with a range of views within it and that should be respected in appointments. I really can't see Boris or Gove having a problem with that. In fact they are more likely to have problems with some of the more excitable elements on their own side.
There will also be a very active discussion as to what the policy (within the Leave umbrella) should be going forward and Remainers will have to play a significant role in that, at least they will if the government wants to retain a majority.
Ho hum.
VLTC have a 16 page manifesto. They want free tariffs (Minford), control of borders, no single market, £100m/week on the NHS, all EU grants maintained, 8,000 police officers, 10 brand new schools, a fully staffed NHS.
And they are the official Leave campaign. And we vote Leave. FREEDOM!
And then what? You think the government could start from scratch and end up workshopping membership of the EEA and free movement?
Both politically, practically and pragmatically it is a bonkers proposition. Part of the PB Leavers "this is what I think should happen, it is sensible according to me, therefore this is what the government must do."
And dear god you are one of the more thoughtful PB Leavers.
I believe that for most of us on the LEAVE side of the fence, our decision was a fairly close call .... certainly it was for me. I felt that the unelected powers that be in the EU were simply too greedy, too power grabbing, too federalist and too socialist for my liking and what's more .... likely to become more of all these things with the passage of time. Against these dislikes, I had to consider the undoubted advantages of the UK being a member state, coupled with the potentially major problems associated with leaving. Yes, it was a close call for me, possibly only a few percentage points either way, but my mind is made up.
Exactly where I am. I can almost live with where the EU is now although I don't like it. I really don't like where the various Presidents are clear it is going.
And I found the way that Cameron was treated in his attempted negotiation disrespectful and condescending. We are frankly too big and important a country to get treated that way by jumped up bureaucrats from various microstates.
Over time I have got more certain in my position. My only reservation has been the absurdity of some of the things said by Leave supporters and, bluntly, who some of those supporters are. If Gove had not played such a major role in this I may well have wavered.
Who gives a flying fudgecake what he demands? That's not the way democracy works in this country. Cameron demanded an early election in 2008 but we never got one did we?
The Government in 2008 had not lost a referendum it supported.
Apart from that, great example...
If the government falls a new government is appointed from within the MPs of Parliament. Same as when Thatcher fell after the poll tax riots etc. If Cameron goes there is no reason why Gove or Johnson can not take his place and serve out the rest of the term.
There is if they can't reunite the Tory party.
In the extraordinairily unlikely event the Tory party doesn't unite after a leave vote, how will a General Election help exactly?
There was no General Election in 1993 when the Tory party was even more helplessly divided, so why would there be one in 2016? What purpose would it serve?
If you think all men find women like Priti Patel appealing, think again. She joins the group of Coulter and Hopkins- sexually repulsive. Ideological, gobby, right wing women.....please. I'd prefer a gentle cuddle and cup of coffee with Angela Merkel.
Angela over Priti is a fairly narrow slice of the male population...
Angela over Priti....... the mind boggles.
Priti over Hertsmere Pubgoer is a very interesting option.
Rather like Natalie Dormer, Priti Patel is someone that people tend to have impure thoughts about.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
That's probably true, but it pre-supposes that the EU itself will survive its absolutely enormous problems and that there won't be other leavers like ourselves.
I have racked my brains to think of what kind of surprise or shock might favour Remain. About the only one I can think of is a "revelation" that UKIP takes money from the Kremlin
Perhaps it's time to deploy Mr Zinoviev.
There is a Question Time tomorrow featuring Mr Gove and one on Sunday with Mr Cameron with that well known independent moderator, Mr Dimbleby
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc. Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
In the extraordinairily unlikely event the Tory party doesn't unite after a leave vote, how will a General Election help exactly?
There was no General Election in 1993 when the Tory party was even more helplessly divided, so why would there be one in 2016? What purpose would it serve?
It would be the democratic and sovereign will of the British people.
I thought you lot were all up for that. Don't tell me you were fibbing...
But hold on I thought TTIP was the end of the NHS and we get that if we stay in the EU?
The Tories are just useless aren't they? They've been in power for decades since it was founded and still haven't destroyed the NHS. Blofeld would not be impressed.
There will also be a very active discussion as to what the policy (within the Leave umbrella) should be going forward and Remainers will have to play a significant role in that, at least they will if the government wants to retain a majority.
And there's the rub.
I expect there is a majority opinion within the Leave camp for freedom of movement, which after their campaign of stigma can't retain a majority at an election.
oops
After Brexit politicians will need to have honest discussions with the British people about what immigration we have. There will be no more excuses and no EU bogey man to blame or use as an excuse. Personally I would have traded freedom of movement for Single Market Access but I agree with you that it is really doubtful that such an approach would now win majority support.
Who gives a flying fudgecake what he demands? That's not the way democracy works in this country. Cameron demanded an early election in 2008 but we never got one did we?
The Government in 2008 had not lost a referendum it supported.
Apart from that, great example...
If the government falls a new government is appointed from within the MPs of Parliament. Same as when Thatcher fell after the poll tax riots etc. If Cameron goes there is no reason why Gove or Johnson can not take his place and serve out the rest of the term.
The opposition can demand chocolate rain and a Christmas that never ends, it isn't going to get it.
I've been assuming that Boris would be a shoe-in for the leadership. But after seeing Patel's swaggering around earlier with The Sun, it's clear that the Tory hard-right are emboldened and intend to own the Brexit victory. Boris and Gove might end up as useful stooges to be at once discarded. The new Tory leader might be Patel herself, an old agitator like Fox or Davis or - heaven forfend - even IDS in a Nixon-like comeback.
A masochistic part of me would enjoy the clash of the titans that would be Corbyn v IDS....
If you think all men find women like Priti Patel appealing, think again. She joins the group of Coulter and Hopkins- sexually repulsive. Ideological, gobby, right wing women.....please. I'd prefer a gentle cuddle and cup of coffee with Angela Merkel.
Angela over Priti is a fairly narrow slice of the male population...
Angela over Priti....... the mind boggles.
Priti over Hertsmere Pubgoer is a very interesting option.
Rather like Natalie Dormer, Priti Patel is someone that people tend to have impure thoughts about.
The Tories are just useless aren't they? They've been in power for decades since it was founded and still haven't destroyed the NHS. Blofeld would not be impressed.
But Cameron is not a Tory. The Brexiteers have made that quite clear.
I have racked my brains to think of what kind of surprise or shock might favour Remain. About the only one I can think of is a "revelation" that UKIP takes money from the Kremlin
Perhaps it's time to deploy Mr Zinoviev.
There is a Question Time tomorrow featuring Mr Gove and one on Sunday with Mr Cameron with that well known independent moderator, Mr Dimbleby
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc. Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
Pfft. Read Schauble's interview. If the UK comes crawling back and the Germans want us in, we're in. But we'd be waving bye-bye to the £ ofc.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
We can take comfort in the fact that it would take decades to negotiate.
Plus, some well-heeled altruistic citizen could bribe one of the 27 (or 35 or 78 or whatever it is by then) countries to veto our membership....
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
Pfft. Read Schauble's interview. If the UK comes crawling back and the Germans want us in, we're in. But we'd be waving bye-bye to the £ ofc.
I'm fairly lazy so the less exchange difference journal entries the better so far as I'm concerned
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
That's probably true, but it pre-supposes that the EU itself will survive its absolutely enormous problems and that there won't be other leavers like ourselves.
In the extraordinairily unlikely event the Tory party doesn't unite after a leave vote, how will a General Election help exactly?
There was no General Election in 1993 when the Tory party was even more helplessly divided, so why would there be one in 2016?
The divisions are bigger than they were with Maastricht. In 2016 it looks as though the position that has been defended vigorously by the prime minister and senior cabinet ministers, on an issue they say is so vitally important, will be rejected by the electorate and by most Tory voters, party members, and MPs. But I agree there won't be a general election. Those who relieve Cameron won't call for one, and there won't be many Cameronite rebels (is the PB term now CREEPers?) voting to bring down the replacement administration.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
That's probably true, but it pre-supposes that the EU itself will survive its absolutely enormous problems and that there won't be other leavers like ourselves.
Putin will be happy.
Didn't the Russians attack England fans in Marseilles?
The second paragraph is the relevant point. This referendum may determine what the policy of the Conservative party is going forward but it will remain a coalition with a range of views within it and that should be respected in appointments. I really can't see Boris or Gove having a problem with that. In fact they are more likely to have problems with some of the more excitable elements on their own side.
There will also be a very active discussion as to what the policy (within the Leave umbrella) should be going forward and Remainers will have to play a significant role in that, at least they will if the government wants to retain a majority.
Ho hum.
VLTC have a 16 page manifesto. They want free tariffs (Minford), control of borders, no single market, £100m/week on the NHS, all EU grants maintained, 8,000 police officers, 10 brand new schools, a fully staffed NHS.
And they are the official Leave campaign. And we vote Leave. FREEDOM!
And then what? You think the government could start from scratch and end up workshopping membership of the EEA and free movement?
Both politically, practically and pragmatically it is a bonkers proposition. Part of the PB Leavers "this is what I think should happen, it is sensible according to me, therefore this is what the government must do."
And dear god you are one of the more thoughtful PB Leavers.
Vote Leave will not have a majority in the HoC, the Conservative party (if it stays together) will. They were asked what Leave would look like and chose to give an answer but that answer, as with Priti Patel this morning on R4, is always prefaced that this will be a matter for the government of the day.
I think most will be surprised (and no doubt many will be disappointed) by how little changes.
But I agree there won't be a general election. Those who relieve Cameron won't call for one, and there won't be many Cameronite rebels (is the PB term now CREEPers?) voting to bring down the replacement administration.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
That's probably true, but it pre-supposes that the EU itself will survive its absolutely enormous problems and that there won't be other leavers like ourselves.
Putin will be happy.
Putin's presiding over a country with an economy the size of Italy, and going south fast. He's a danger, but assuming he doesn't run completely berzerk and go nuclear, he's not quite the threat he's made out to be. It suits a lot of people to paint it differently.
If Owen Jones wants to live in a world where people can only say what is on the officially approved list of platitudes, then perhaps he has more in common with Islamic State than he thinks.
Just watched the John Harris video in Stoke...The Labour Party need to watch it, because they are not going to win a GE until they listen to people shown in the video.
I have racked my brains to think of what kind of surprise or shock might favour Remain. About the only one I can think of is a "revelation" that UKIP takes money from the Kremlin
Perhaps it's time to deploy Mr Zinoviev.
There is a Question Time tomorrow featuring Mr Gove and one on Sunday with Mr Cameron with that well known independent moderator, Mr Dimbleby
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc. Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
So there are several potential traps.
Wembley debate is a huge worry.
Particularly if they invite Farage.
Wembley debate wont involve Farage. Think it's Boris and Gisela plus someone from business.
Also Channel 4 is hosted by Paxman so that may help Leave a bit, though viewing figures will be low.
Remain have a problem that they need to keep Cameron off the news but have already agreed to the Question Time on Sunday in a prime slot (with no football on the other side) which is surely going to lose him more votes.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
That's probably true, but it pre-supposes that the EU itself will survive its absolutely enormous problems and that there won't be other leavers like ourselves.
Putin will be happy.
Of all the things Putin is afraid of the EU comes close to bottom of the list.
Just watched the John Harris video in Stoke...The Labour Party need to watch it, because they are not going to win a GE until they listen to people shown in the video.
That was a great video, can't recommend it highly enough.
In the extraordinairily unlikely event the Tory party doesn't unite after a leave vote, how will a General Election help exactly?
There was no General Election in 1993 when the Tory party was even more helplessly divided, so why would there be one in 2016? What purpose would it serve?
It would be the democratic and sovereign will of the British people.
I thought you lot were all up for that. Don't tell me you were fibbing...
Every five years yes. There are still 4 years left of this term.
Considering this referendum was a manifesto promise for the government and that government ministers will have won this referendum no matter what I expect the government to implement the results of this referendum as they were elected to do. If any government minister (upto and including the PM) feels they can't do what they were elected last year to do then they can resign and head back to the backbenches or Take the Chiltern Hundreds.
If you think all men find women like Priti Patel appealing, think again. She joins the group of Coulter and Hopkins- sexually repulsive. Ideological, gobby, right wing women.....please. I'd prefer a gentle cuddle and cup of coffee with Angela Merkel.
Angela over Priti is a fairly narrow slice of the male population...
Angela over Priti....... the mind boggles.
Priti over Hertsmere Pubgoer is a very interesting option.
Rather like Natalie Dormer, Priti Patel is someone that people tend to have impure thoughts about.
Except we haven't seen the latter's [moderated]
Privately, I suspect that Tyson thinks of Anne Coulter, Priti Patel, and Katie Hopkins as being stern disciplinarians.
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.
I have racked my brains to think of what kind of surprise or shock might favour Remain. About the only one I can think of is a "revelation" that UKIP takes money from the Kremlin
Perhaps it's time to deploy Mr Zinoviev.
There is a Question Time tomorrow featuring Mr Gove and one on Sunday with Mr Cameron with that well known independent moderator, Mr Dimbleby
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc. Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
So there are several potential traps.
Wembley debate is a huge worry.
Particularly if they invite Farage.
Wembley debate wont involve Farage. Think it's Boris and Gisela plus someone from business.
Also Channel 4 is hosted by Paxman so that may help Leave a bit, though viewing figures will be low.
Remain have a problem that they need to keep Cameron off the news but have already agreed to the Question Time on Sunday in a prime slot (with no football on the other side) which is surely going to lose him more votes.
Do you have a link for the named BBC debate 'debaters' ?
I must confess, I am shocked, SHOCKED, at how desperate Brexiteers are to avoid asking the British public to endorse their manifesto at an election.
Just how scared of democracy are they?
No tone is scared. The government manifesto was put to the British public LAST YEAR. The government needs to do its JOB and then in 2020 be judged accordingly.
Why are you so afraid of the government doing what it was elected to do? What was in the governments own manifesto?
Perhaps some of the Conservative Leavers could explain which Remainers they would be prepared to see continue to serve in public office after Brexit. It seems that would be a much shorter list.
Of course, the government would still be dependent on Remainer support, so one wonders how they think they are going to persuade the Conservative party to come together.
The second paragraph is the relevant point. This referendum may determine what the policy of the Conservative party is going forward but it will remain a coalition with a range of views within it and that should be respected in appointments. I really can't see Boris or Gove having a problem with that. In fact they are more likely to have problems with some of the more excitable elements on their own side.
There will also be a very active discussion as to what the policy (within the Leave umbrella) should be going forward and Remainers will have to play a significant role in that, at least they will if the government wants to retain a majority.
There is going to be so much BETRAYAL banded around. The Tories are going to get even more angry with each other when Leave turns on Leave.
@TSE In the event of Brexit, we're out. Quite apart from the fact that Leavers have to be given time and space to implement their mandate (once they decide what that is), the rest of the EU won't have Britain back unless they're 100% sure that we'd stay for good. That isn't a position that Britain would be in for the foreseeable future.
If we vote Leave, the choice is to all intents and purposes final, no matter how poor a choice it might be.
Nothing is ever final. For shits and giggles, just imagine if a sovereign parliament rejoined the EU after being elected on a manifesto to do just that.
The chances of a post-Leave UK being allowed back in are - 0%
Pfft. Read Schauble's interview. If the UK comes crawling back and the Germans want us in, we're in. But we'd be waving bye-bye to the £ ofc.
If we were to leave and come back, it would undoubtedly be the full-fat EU, with the Euro, Shengen, no rebates and no opt-outs.
The half way house we have at the moment helps no-one. If there's no formal half way house option, then we need to be either all the way in or all the way out.
But hold on I thought TTIP was the end of the NHS and we get that if we stay in the EU?
The Tories are just useless aren't they? They've been in power for decades since it was founded and still haven't destroyed the NHS. Blofeld would not be impressed.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB What's keeping the LEAVE price depressed is concern about Ipsos-MORI, ComRes & Survation phone polls due in next 48 hours
Makes sense. Though people were concerned about ICM Phone Poll which was keeping the Leave price deflated (OGH even wrote a header advising to lay Leave for that reason) and look how that turned out.
If - and it is a big if - Ipsos-MORI, Comres and Survation phone polls match the results of the ICM phone poll then the betting market won't take very long to change this time.
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.
I have racked my brains to think of what kind of surprise or shock might favour Remain. About the only one I can think of is a "revelation" that UKIP takes money from the Kremlin
Perhaps it's time to deploy Mr Zinoviev.
There is a Question Time tomorrow featuring Mr Gove and one on Sunday with Mr Cameron with that well known independent moderator, Mr Dimbleby
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc. Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
So there are several potential traps.
Wembley debate is a huge worry.
Particularly if they invite Farage.
Wembley debate wont involve Farage. Think it's Boris and Gisela plus someone from business.
Also Channel 4 is hosted by Paxman so that may help Leave a bit, though viewing figures will be low.
Remain have a problem that they need to keep Cameron off the news but have already agreed to the Question Time on Sunday in a prime slot (with no football on the other side) which is surely going to lose him more votes.
Do you have a link for the named BBC debate 'debaters' ?
The second paragraph is the relevant point. This referendum may determine what the policy of the Conservative party is going forward but it will remain a coalition with a range of views within it and that should be respected in appointments. I really can't see Boris or Gove having a problem with that. In fact they are more likely to have problems with some of the more excitable elements on their own side.
There will also be a very active discussion as to what the policy (within the Leave umbrella) should be going forward and Remainers will have to play a significant role in that, at least they will if the government wants to retain a majority.
Ho hum.
VLTC have a 16 page manifesto. They want free tariffs (Minford), control of borders, no single market, £100m/week on the NHS, all EU grants maintained, 8,000 police officers, 10 brand new schools, a fully staffed NHS.
And they are the official Leave campaign. And we vote Leave. FREEDOM!
And then what? You think the government could start from scratch and end up workshopping membership of the EEA and free movement?
Both politically, practically and pragmatically it is a bonkers proposition. Part of the PB Leavers "this is what I think should happen, it is sensible according to me, therefore this is what the government must do."
And dear god you are one of the more thoughtful PB Leavers.
Vote Leave will not have a majority in the HoC, the Conservative party (if it stays together) will. They were asked what Leave would look like and chose to give an answer but that answer, as with Priti Patel this morning on R4, is always prefaced that this will be a matter for the government of the day.
I think most will be surprised (and no doubt many will be disappointed) by how little changes.
Labour (and the other opposition parties) are going to have a field day in the HoC. They'll indulge in no end of shenanigans to wreck any sensible post-Brexit legislation. Not very gallant perhaps, but the Tories will own all the post-Brexit mayhem, so why not?
On the subject of personal attacks, @SeanT's stirring call for everyone to rally around a post-Brexit Britain and his genuine incredulity was touching when I said that I had no intention of hanging together with the Leavers who are taking our country on a potentially disastrous course. It might have been still more touching if he hadn't earlier in the month expressed a wish to see me (and others) dead.
I might have more sympathy if you had not attacked me in a deeply personal and offensive way some time ago.
I have never attacked you.
Mr Meeks also has seen fit to attack others, I commented about at least one just yesterday.
I have racked my brains to think of what kind of surprise or shock might favour Remain. About the only one I can think of is a "revelation" that UKIP takes money from the Kremlin
Perhaps it's time to deploy Mr Zinoviev.
There is a Question Time tomorrow featuring Mr Gove and one on Sunday with Mr Cameron with that well known independent moderator, Mr Dimbleby
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc. Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
So there are several potential traps.
Wembley debate is a huge worry.
Particularly if they invite Farage.
Wembley debate wont involve Farage. Think it's Boris and Gisela plus someone from business.
Also Channel 4 is hosted by Paxman so that may help Leave a bit, though viewing figures will be low.
Remain have a problem that they need to keep Cameron off the news but have already agreed to the Question Time on Sunday in a prime slot (with no football on the other side) which is surely going to lose him more votes.
Do you have a link for the named BBC debate 'debaters' ?
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.
It's a decent article, but once more it's blathering on about the British Empire. This is as relevant as dragging up Hitler when discussing modern Germany. No one cares about the fecking Empire. Only nonagenarians can remember the Raj. My daughter's generation don't even know what the hell the Empire was. For them history is Tudors-WWI-Hitler.
I haven't done the analysis but it would seem credible to me (if we're just discussing numbers, rather than human beings) that while the UK hasn't the highest percentage of immigrants, it'll have one of the highest deltas in the last twenty years and (made up metric) one of the highest immigrant-per-square-foot rates in Europe. If I can be bothered, I'll actually do some sums and check later.
If you're calling it insanity, I think it's more likely to be a Munchean scream against globalisation.
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.
It's a decent article, but once more it's blathering on about the British Empire. This is as relevant as dragging up Hitler when discussing modern Germany. No one cares about the fecking Empire. Only nonagenarians can remember the Raj. My daughter's generation don't even know what the hell the Empire was. For them history is Tudors-WWI-Hitler.
I haven't done the analysis but it would seem credible to me (if we're just discussing numbers, rather than human beings) that while the UK hasn't the highest percentage of immigrants, it'll have one of the highest deltas in the last twenty years and (made up metric) one of the highest immigrant-per-square-foot rates in Europe. If I can be bothered, I'll actually do some sums and check later.
If you're calling it insanity, I think it's more likely to be a Munchean scream against globalisation.
Yes, I agree with you about the British Empire stuff, but the poor man has got to give his readers some kind of rational explanation.
On the subject of personal attacks, @SeanT's stirring call for everyone to rally around a post-Brexit Britain and his genuine incredulity was touching when I said that I had no intention of hanging together with the Leavers who are taking our country on a potentially disastrous course. It might have been still more touching if he hadn't earlier in the month expressed a wish to see me (and others) dead.
This is a very passionate debate, is it not? I remember during the time of Likes SeanT wished me dead one night (it's always the night :-D) and got around 25 Likes. But it's all part of the fun on here. If you can't take it, you are best off not participating. There are enough interesting and different views to make the silly stuff worthwhile.
Mmm, that's a bit too much "blame the victim" for my taste - we would lose a genuine talent from his point of view if Alastair moved away. seanT is sui generis and rarely to be taken entirely literally, but the personal abuse that one sometimes sees here sucks, and we all need to jump on it when it happens.
Yet you were strangely tolerant of tim when he attacked people, hmmm why would that be?
Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.
Who gives a flying fudgecake what he demands? That's not the way democracy works in this country. Cameron demanded an early election in 2008 but we never got one did we?
The Government in 2008 had not lost a referendum it supported.
Apart from that, great example...
If the government falls a new government is appointed from within the MPs of Parliament. Same as when Thatcher fell after the poll tax riots etc. If Cameron goes there is no reason why Gove or Johnson can not take his place and serve out the rest of the term.
There is if they can't reunite the Tory party.
In the extraordinairily unlikely event the Tory party doesn't unite after a leave vote, how will a General Election help exactly?
There was no General Election in 1993 when the Tory party was even more helplessly divided, so why would there be one in 2016? What purpose would it serve?
This is why I asked about GE odds yesterday, the conservative majority is slim, and then you have to realise how large a majority remain have in the commons. I think it's quite likely that there are enough conservatives who would put principle over party and allow a vote of no confidence to pass based on the profound change created through brexit and a new GE mandate being required to take that through parliament. I fully expect Cameron to resign in the evnt of brexit too, no matter what he says.
Comments
The second paragraph is the relevant point. This referendum may determine what the policy of the Conservative party is going forward but it will remain a coalition with a range of views within it and that should be respected in appointments. I really can't see Boris or Gove having a problem with that. In fact they are more likely to have problems with some of the more excitable elements on their own side.
There will also be a very active discussion as to what the policy (within the Leave umbrella) should be going forward and Remainers will have to play a significant role in that, at least they will if the government wants to retain a majority.
Ho hum.
VLTC have a 16 page manifesto. They want free tariffs (Minford), control of borders, no single market, £100m/week on the NHS, all EU grants maintained, 8,000 police officers, 10 brand new schools, a fully staffed NHS.
And they are the official Leave campaign. And we vote Leave. FREEDOM!
And then what? You think the government could start from scratch and end up workshopping membership of the EEA and free movement?
Both politically, practically and pragmatically it is a bonkers proposition. Part of the PB Leavers "this is what I think should happen, it is sensible according to me, therefore this is what the government must do."
And dear god you are one of the more thoughtful PB Leavers.
And I found the way that Cameron was treated in his attempted negotiation disrespectful and condescending. We are frankly too big and important a country to get treated that way by jumped up bureaucrats from various microstates.
Over time I have got more certain in my position. My only reservation has been the absurdity of some of the things said by Leave supporters and, bluntly, who some of those supporters are. If Gove had not played such a major role in this I may well have wavered.
There was no General Election in 1993 when the Tory party was even more helplessly divided, so why would there be one in 2016? What purpose would it serve?
Then there is The Wembley Debate on Tuesday
Location: London - Remain Territory
Organiser: The impartial BBC who no doubt will have control of questions/ interruptions etc.
Participants
And 'The Final Debate' on Wedensday
Channel 4 - another proud, independent organisation.
(There's also a special interview session with Mr Corbyn - but that is irrelevant)
So there are several potential traps.
I thought you lot were all up for that. Don't tell me you were fibbing...
Once BoZo gets his chopper out, all bets are off
Particularly if they invite Farage.
Plus, some well-heeled altruistic citizen could bribe one of the 27 (or 35 or 78 or whatever it is by then) countries to veto our membership....
I think most will be surprised (and no doubt many will be disappointed) by how little changes.
Sovereignty!
When do we want it?
Not before 2020, if we can possibly avoid it...
If Owen Jones wants to live in a world where people can only say what is on the officially approved list of platitudes, then perhaps he has more in common with Islamic State than he thinks.
What's keeping the LEAVE price depressed is concern about Ipsos-MORI, ComRes & Survation phone polls due in next 48 hours
Also Channel 4 is hosted by Paxman so that may help Leave a bit, though viewing figures will be low.
Remain have a problem that they need to keep Cameron off the news but have already agreed to the Question Time on Sunday in a prime slot (with no football on the other side) which is surely going to lose him more votes.
Just how scared of democracy are they?
Considering this referendum was a manifesto promise for the government and that government ministers will have won this referendum no matter what I expect the government to implement the results of this referendum as they were elected to do. If any government minister (upto and including the PM) feels they can't do what they were elected last year to do then they can resign and head back to the backbenches or Take the Chiltern Hundreds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html
Why are you so afraid of the government doing what it was elected to do? What was in the governments own manifesto?
The half way house we have at the moment helps no-one. If there's no formal half way house option, then we need to be either all the way in or all the way out.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
If - and it is a big if - Ipsos-MORI, Comres and Survation phone polls match the results of the ICM phone poll then the betting market won't take very long to change this time.
this was the speculation. Boris and Gisela seems very likely as they work well together. Sadiq suggested for remain.
I haven't done the analysis but it would seem credible to me (if we're just discussing numbers, rather than human beings) that while the UK hasn't the highest percentage of immigrants, it'll have one of the highest deltas in the last twenty years and (made up metric) one of the highest immigrant-per-square-foot rates in Europe. If I can be bothered, I'll actually do some sums and check later.
If you're calling it insanity, I think it's more likely to be a Munchean scream against globalisation.