It's rubbish though isn't it? Doesn't the PM have to give approval for another referendum? A Conservative Unionist PM would never give a 2nd referendum until post-2020. So it's further than 3 years away, longer if you assume Corbyn means another Tory victory in 2020.
You can put that one the other way around. Why do the REMAINERS love the EU so much? Because they believe any old bollocks.
Seriously, there's no "both sides are doing it" parallel on this one. Anti-EU people are driven by a continuous stream of vastly exaggerated or entirely bogus claims. This isn't at all true of the pro-EU side; I know the government are making up a bunch of lies for the referendum, but they're aimed at the waverers, not the true believers. A better response from the anti-side would be that the pro-EU side are driven by a *worldview* that's mistaken, but there's nothing like it in terms of easily-debunked false factual claims.
Maybe the pro-EU side would have a firmer bedrock of lies to stand on if they had their own populist media to push them with. You'd think the Bilderberg group could afford to buy a few newspapers, wouldn't you?
Fuck off.
The pro-EU campaign has lies in its fucking DNA. It is a lie incarnate. It is a lie made flesh. It is the essence of lies. It is the great mothership of mendacity. Because it pretends, to the Brits at least, that the EU is not a superstate-in-the-making. Which is a lie.
Compared to that overwhelming deception, all other fibs are footling trivialities. The EU, as sold to the British, IS a lie.
And you, Sir, are a liar.
Does SeanT moonlight as a speech writer for Boris by any chance?
I think Boris is quite capable of writing his own, don't you? He used to dash off perfect copy for the papers in about thirty minutes.
It's rubbish though isn't it? Doesn't the PM have to give approval for another referendum? A Conservative Unionist PM would never give a 2nd referendum until post-2020. So it's further than 3 years away, longer if you assume Corbyn means another Tory victory in 2020.
Yeah, it's a reserved power for the UK Parliament.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Actually the thing I find about this isn't the idea that Turks could come here on holiday etc, after all why not, but how hard the government has tried to hide what it is doing. Duplicitous B'stards. Almost like Liberal Democrats.
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
It is not diplomacy it is fact. If we choose to join EFTA then the rest of the EU have no legal basis on which to prevent us. In doing so we remain part of the EEA and so continue to have access to the Single Market (with all that implies about freedom of movement). A very clear majority of those polled prefer that option to leaving completely if we have already voted to leave the EU.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
lol. I'm going here tomorrow, for a week - to eat all the best food and drink blah bah.
What are you doing? Weekend in Cannes at some point? Bottle of average claret with some OK frites on "the Corniche"?
Long weekend in Skeggy.
Cannot be beaten.
(you seem a touch insecure this evening, are you one of the PB Leavers heading back to Remain, by any chance?)
Good. I win the argument. Because this is just a stupid argument.
I imagine you are some kind of stockbroker, or financier, or were? If you are, I will bow to your superior knowledge in that department. Stocks and shares - eek, I'm an amateur, and I admit it. You know more than me. I'll argue my case but bow to the wiser man, in the end.
But this is my job. Food, wine, restaurants, hotels. I do it for a living, and I do it in the best places, because I am a lucky fucker. And I've now been doing it 30 years, which tends to add up.
That makes me 1. obnoxious, 2, annoying, but also 3. more knowledgeable ON THESE SUBJECTS than anyone else I generally meet (apart from expert specialised restaurant critics and dedicated wine writers, to whom I yield in their respective departments)
There are many many people on pb who know far far more than me about almost everything, but wine, food and hotels? Hmm.
I know nothing about food and wine. I like trying them though. Ditto nice hotels (though I know how to pick one for a conference). If you do it all the time can you get as much enjoyment? The treat is half the thing, isn't it? Out of interest, do you ever write a bad review of a place and how do they react if you do given they've comped the whole thing?
You can put that one the other way around. Why do the REMAINERS love the EU so much? Because they believe any old bollocks.
Seriously, there's no "both sides are doing it" parallel on this one. Anti-EU people are driven by a continuous stream of vastly exaggerated or entirely bogus claims. This isn't at all true of the pro-EU side; I know the government are making up a bunch of lies for the referendum, but they're aimed at the waverers, not the true believers. A better response from the anti-side would be that the pro-EU side are driven by a *worldview* that's mistaken, but there's nothing like it in terms of easily-debunked false factual claims.
Maybe the pro-EU side would have a firmer bedrock of lies to stand on if they had their own populist media to push them with. You'd think the Bilderberg group could afford to buy a few newspapers, wouldn't you?
Fuck off.
The pro-EU campaign has lies in its fucking DNA. It is a lie incarnate. It is a lie made flesh. It is the essence of lies. It is the great mothership of mendacity. Because it pretends, to the Brits at least, that the EU is not a superstate-in-the-making. Which is a lie.
Compared to that overwhelming deception, all other fibs are footling trivialities. The EU, as sold to the British, IS a lie.
And you, Sir, are a liar.
Does SeanT moonlight as a speech writer for Boris by any chance?
I think Boris is quite capable of writing his own, don't you? He used to dash off perfect copy for the papers in about thirty minutes.
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Sickening to suggest an attack on one group of people is worse than an attack on others.
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
In some Islamic states like Saudi Arabia all sex outside heterosexual marriage, homosexuality, gambling and alcohol is illegal
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
It is not diplomacy it is fact. If we choose to join EFTA then the rest of the EU have no legal basis on which to prevent us. In doing so we remain part of the EEA and so continue to have access to the Single Market (with all that implies about freedom of movement). A very clear majority of those polled prefer that option to leaving completely if we have already voted to leave the EU.
I'm sorry but matters of relations between states are the stuff of diplomacy, just as relations between companies are the stuff of business. Lawyers can advise you on whether you can do something but are often bad judges of whether you should.
Apart from anything else, to bounce the country into EFTA after a campaign based on immigration would be an affront to democracy. You'd need, at the very least, a general election to allow people to vote on the basis of manifestos for a post-Brexit world.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Owen Jones @OwenJones84 1h1 hour ago Talking about the mass murder of LGBT people in Orlando on Sky News at 10.30pm and 11.30pm. Messed up about it but will do my best.
30 or 40 years ago there was no question that New York was the world's premier city with London some way behind, now the two are at least level and London may even be slightly ahead. As for London suburbia there are still a few Tory suburbs about, Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Harrow etc
I wonder how many Americans would agree that London is the equal of New York.
Or people from other countries.
I suspect there's an element of Londoners bigging up their city.
These are all very nebulous, of course, but they do reveal a trend
Which brings me back to my original point.
If London is so much better than it was why is it so much worse for the Conservatives.
Isn't it now a city of extremes - great if you're really rich and great if you're an immigrant from some shithole.
But for the average person with the average family who wants an average job and an average life with an average house its almost unliveable.
Its egg-timer shaped rather than egg shaped.
Its difficult now to imagine all those sitcoms of ordinary families which were once set in London now existing.
New York City is hardly great for Republicans either is it, most people in either city rent with only the richest able to buy and both cities are socially liberal and filled with immigrants. Middle income earners in London tend to move out to Kent or Essex once they want to buy a house and start a family
But 30 years ago when London was apparently at its trough it was good for the Conservatives. Not unconnected to middle income earners being able to afford to buy in London in those days.
Indeed but seats like Dartford and Basildon which used to lean to Labour are now leaning to the Tories because those very same voters have moved out of London suburbs to them, at the same time turning those London suburban seats more to Labour
Certainly but if middle suburbia has seen a shift from Conservative voting owner-occupiers to more densely packed Labour voting renters it suggests that much of London has declined in socio-demographic terms during the last 30 years.
Which contradicts the standard view that London has improved.
Now I'll agree that central London has improved and that's the part seen most by tourists and visitors. But its still only a small part of London overall.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
Oh right, I thought this was about their eventual membership. Sorry
I think that was the impression that the Daily Mail headline intended to convey.
We are in the realm of post truth politics where even known lies are continued with because they work. It is not just a UK phenomenon and not likely to end well.
Sorry to sound difficult but newspaper headlines have always been a bit post truth, it is how they sell papers. Always have always will. Frequently the detail sounds a little less outrageous than the headline.
30 or 40 years ago there was no question that New York was the world's premier city with London some way behind, now the two are at least level and London may even be slightly ahead. As for London suburbia there are still a few Tory suburbs about, Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Harrow etc
I wonder how many Americans would agree that London is the equal of New York.
Or people from other countries.
I suspect there's an element of Londoners bigging up their city.
These are all very nebulous, of course, but they do reveal a trend
Which brings me back to my original point.
If London is so much better than it was why is it so much worse for the Conservatives.
Isn't it now a city of extremes - great if you're really rich and great if you're an immigrant from some shithole.
But for the average person with the average family who wants an average job and an average life with an average house its almost unliveable.
Its egg-timer shaped rather than egg shaped.
Its difficult now to imagine all those sitcoms of ordinary families which were once set in London now existing.
New York City is hardly great for Republicans either is it, most people in either city rent with only the richest able to buy and both cities are socially liberal and filled with immigrants. Middle income earners in London tend to move out to Kent or Essex once they want to buy a house and start a family
But 30 years ago when London was apparently at its trough it was good for the Conservatives. Not unconnected to middle income earners being able to afford to buy in London in those days.
Indeed but seats like Dartford and Basildon which used to lean to Labour are now leaning to the Tories because those very same voters have moved out of London suburbs to them, at the same time turning those London suburban seats more to Labour
Certainly but if middle suburbia has seen a shift from Conservative voting owner-occupiers to more densely packed Labour voting renters it suggests that much of London has declined in socio-demographic terms during the last 30 years.
Which contradicts the standard view that London has improved.
Now I'll agree that central London has improved and that's the part seen most by tourists and visitors. But its still only a small part of London overall.
What it suggests is that house prices have increased dramatically in London to the extent that they are over double those of the rest of the country when wages in London are certainly not double those in the rest of the country, that is because of the dramatic increase in foreign investors wanting to buy in London now it is a global megacity. Hence if you are on an average London wage you have to move to the Home Counties to buy
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
It is not diplomacy it is fact. If we choose to join EFTA then the rest of the EU have no legal basis on which to prevent us. In doing so we remain part of the EEA and so continue to have access to the Single Market (with all that implies about freedom of movement). A very clear majority of those polled prefer that option to leaving completely if we have already voted to leave the EU.
I'm sorry but matters of relations between states are the stuff of diplomacy, just as relations between companies are the stuff of business. Lawyers can advise you on whether you can do something but are often bad judges of whether you should.
Apart from anything else, to bounce the country into EFTA after a campaign based on immigration would be an affront to democracy. You'd need, at the very least, a general election to allow people to vote on the basis of manifestos for a post-Brexit world.
We have at least two years before we leave the EU in which to make the decision. It is hardy bouncing.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Yet more REMAIN propaganda and LIES!
That's a quote from someone voting Leave you numpty.
Sorry, Sunil was replying to your "Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics."
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
It is not diplomacy it is fact. If we choose to join EFTA then the rest of the EU have no legal basis on which to prevent us. In doing so we remain part of the EEA and so continue to have access to the Single Market (with all that implies about freedom of movement). A very clear majority of those polled prefer that option to leaving completely if we have already voted to leave the EU.
I'm sorry but matters of relations between states are the stuff of diplomacy, just as relations between companies are the stuff of business. Lawyers can advise you on whether you can do something but are often bad judges of whether you should.
Apart from anything else, to bounce the country into EFTA after a campaign based on immigration would be an affront to democracy. You'd need, at the very least, a general election to allow people to vote on the basis of manifestos for a post-Brexit world.
We have at least two years before we leave the EU in which to make the decision. It is hardy bouncing.
Plenty of time for the EU to move the goalposts and make that legal subterfuge pointless.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Yet more REMAIN propaganda and LIES!
That's a quote from someone voting Leave you numpty.
Sorry, Sunil was replying to your "Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics."
Are you now saying you are voting Leave?
The let there be no illusion quote is from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, who is voting Leave
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
In some Islamic states like Saudi Arabia all sex outside heterosexual marriage, homosexuality, gambling and alcohol is illegal
And yet ironically Saudis are replete in Asia shagging boys and ladyboys. Don't believe me? Go to Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand and see.
They try to justify this on the grounds that it's ok to be top (active) not bottom (passive) which is the most twisted depraved logic imaginable.
Mind you, a fair few Saudis also prop up the bars out there, especially during Ramadan.
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
In some Islamic states like Saudi Arabia all sex outside heterosexual marriage, homosexuality, gambling and alcohol is illegal
And yet ironically Saudis are replete in Asia shagging boys and ladyboys. Don't believe me? Go to Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand and see.
They try to justify this on the grounds that it's ok to be top (active) not bottom (passive) which is the most twisted depraved logic imaginable.
Mind you, a fair few Saudis also prop up the bars out there, especially during Ramadan.
It's how it was in the heady days of Greece and Rome(?)
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
In some Islamic states like Saudi Arabia all sex outside heterosexual marriage, homosexuality, gambling and alcohol is illegal
Or gobby women as Julia said just before Owen storms off.
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
It is not diplomacy it is fact. If we choose to join EFTA then the rest of the EU have no legal basis on which to prevent us. In doing so we remain part of the EEA and so continue to have access to the Single Market (with all that implies about freedom of movement). A very clear majority of those polled prefer that option to leaving completely if we have already voted to leave the EU.
I'm sorry but matters of relations between states are the stuff of diplomacy, just as relations between companies are the stuff of business. Lawyers can advise you on whether you can do something but are often bad judges of whether you should.
Apart from anything else, to bounce the country into EFTA after a campaign based on immigration would be an affront to democracy. You'd need, at the very least, a general election to allow people to vote on the basis of manifestos for a post-Brexit world.
We have at least two years before we leave the EU in which to make the decision. It is hardy bouncing.
Plenty of time for the EU to move the goalposts and make that legal subterfuge pointless.
They can't. I don't know why you find this so hard to understand. Each country in the EEA is an individual signatory to the treaty. The only way that the EU can prevent the UK from remaining in the EEA is to renage on the treaty completely.
Ignoring the fact that doing so would be unheard of and would set the precedent for any EU member state to renage on EU treaties, they wouldn't do it anyway because they want to keep trading with us.
This is not just some refinement of EU law. This is an external treaty which is the foundation of the EEA.
It's rubbish though isn't it? Doesn't the PM have to give approval for another referendum? A Conservative Unionist PM would never give a 2nd referendum until post-2020. So it's further than 3 years away, longer if you assume Corbyn means another Tory victory in 2020.
If they thought they'd win it, they'd hold a legally non-binding 'poll' of the population and milk the refusal of westminster to grant an official referendum for all it was worth and create a constitutional crisis.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
This. Nobody was disagreeing, except the issue the presenters were having with Kevin, was he was very big on it being homophobic, but then using all sorts of weasels words to dress up where that homophobia came from.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
As far as I can see from the clip, nobody was disagreeing with him. Indeed, that was the telegraph headline they were reviewing
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Sickening to suggest an attack on one group of people is worse than an attack on others.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Well, yes, On the one hand I can see why Owen was emotional but the reality is that she is right that they do target western culture generally.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
We're best doing it now then aren't we as opposed to after 53 years when we're forced to as the Eurozone becomes the United States of Europe... Accept the inevitable.
Yes. A referendum he would lose. So they will not hold it.
If the economy goes titsup after Brexit (and AEP admits this), then Scotland will again suffer due to an outcome it did not want and a government it did not elect.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Well, yes, On the one hand I can see why Owen was emotional but the reality is that she is right that they do target western culture generally.
I think Hugo Rifkind put it right
I keep imagining sitting there being told that an attack on a synagogue wasn't antisemitic. Fuck that.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
No. Well the Turkish thing might cause them problems but only because it is being misrepresented. This won't make any difference at all. This happened outside the EU involving a US homegrown national and simply shows that unfortunately the religious nutcases can strike anywhere in the world.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
As far as I can see from the clip, nobody was disagreeing with him. Indeed, that was the telegraph headline they were reviewing
They were all getting very heated and not really listening to each other. If they had they would have realised they all basically agreed. The Sky bloke should not have lost it. That was much more unprofessional than Jones walking off.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
Remain were already in trouble. Who knows whether this will add to their woes.
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Well, yes, On the one hand I can see why Owen was emotional but the reality is that she is right that they do target western culture generally.
I think Hugo Rifkind put it right
I keep imagining sitting there being told that an attack on a synagogue wasn't antisemitic. Fuck that.
That was the point Jones was trying to make. He was too wound up though. He probably should not have gone on in the first place.
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
Yes.
British politicians caring about British national interest is the ONLY way to get a good outcome. Schauble doesn't give a flying fudgecake about the British or Greek interests he looks after Germany. We need to do the same. We look after number one and Schauble can take it or leave it just as he treats everyone else.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
More likely to be a factor in Trump vs Clinton than EU Ref, on reflection.
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Well, yes, On the one hand I can see why Owen was emotional but the reality is that she is right that they do target western culture generally.
I think Hugo Rifkind put it right
I keep imagining sitting there being told that an attack on a synagogue wasn't antisemitic. Fuck that.
That was the point Jones was trying to make. He was too wound up though. He probably should not have gone on in the first place.
This is his tweet about 15 mins before he went on Sky News
Yes. A referendum he would lose. So they will not hold it.
If the economy goes titsup after Brexit (and AEP admits this), then Scotland will again suffer due to an outcome it did not want and a government it did not elect.
Why do you think they would lose it?
Because they would have no viable economy, and no pound. Same as....
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Yet more REMAIN propaganda and LIES!
That's a quote from someone voting Leave you numpty.
Sorry, Sunil was replying to your "Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics."
Are you now saying you are voting Leave?
The let there be no illusion quote is from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, who is voting Leave
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
This seems very odd, why would you poll 2000 people and not ask a VI question? Any chance the VI result was buried due to not being liked by the Mirror?
This seems very odd, why would you poll 2000 people and not ask a VI question? Any chance the VI result was buried due to not being liked by the Mirror?
Calm down with the conspiracy theories.
ComRes have long stated they wouldn't be doing any online EURef VI polls, because they think their phone polls will be more accurate.
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Not if they haven't left yet. Scotland could hold the referendum during our exit negotiations and then Remain in the EU on our terms if it's a Yes vote.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
More likely to be a factor in Trump vs Clinton than EU Ref, on reflection.
Trump gives the impression he wants such attacks to take place. This Tweet is a bit of a mistake: "Thanks for the congrats"????
Owen Jones has just done a John Knott on the Sky Paper Review - after a fight about homophobia. Will they bring on a sub for the second half?
What was said that invaded his safe space & offended him so much? I have seen people take him on before & he doesn't like it.
Just seen it. Very odd. He seemed to be upset at the Telegraph describing the attack as an ISIL attack on gays. Very very odd.
Twitter seems to suggest it is something do with the fact the presenter said no difference between this and the attacks in Paris, and Jones spat his dummy because he says this was specifically on gays. In the clips, it is just him doing a Kevin the Teenager strop, but not what led up to it.
Well, yes, On the one hand I can see why Owen was emotional but the reality is that she is right that they do target western culture generally.
I think Hugo Rifkind put it right
I keep imagining sitting there being told that an attack on a synagogue wasn't antisemitic. Fuck that.
Well, yes, but they were not saying it wasn't a homophobic attack....
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
But a post-Brexit devalued GBP plugs it for them. Isn't oil priced in dollars? Drop GBP to £1=$1.2 from wherever it was in Sindyref1 (£1=$1.6?) and the sums begin to look better: it's equivalent to a 33% increase in the price of oil.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
More likely to be a factor in Trump vs Clinton than EU Ref, on reflection.
Trump gives the impression he wants such attacks to take place. This Tweet is a bit of a mistake: "Thanks for the congrats"????
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
The common thread is that radical Islam doesn't like western lifestyle: so gays, music venues, sports events are all fair game to these religious fanatics.
In some Islamic states like Saudi Arabia all sex outside heterosexual marriage, homosexuality, gambling and alcohol is illegal
And yet ironically Saudis are replete in Asia shagging boys and ladyboys. Don't believe me? Go to Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand and see.
They try to justify this on the grounds that it's ok to be top (active) not bottom (passive) which is the most twisted depraved logic imaginable.
Mind you, a fair few Saudis also prop up the bars out there, especially during Ramadan.
I had this very argument with a gay friend about 10-15 years ago. He's extremely liberal, Lib Dem, europhile, etc
I told him that if you allow too much Muslim immigration, in the end this would harm people like HIM and his gay friends, and their lifestyle, far more than someone like me, because Islam is a powerful, reactionary and extremely persistent belief system which won't change any time soon. Islam would try to change the societies it entered rather than BE changed.
He refused to believe it. Just shut the argument down. Claimed that Muslims would assimilate to western values and become much more tolerant.
We ended the argument there, rather than damage our friendship. I wonder what he thinks now.
Yep.
And Eddie Izzard would be the first to have his head lopped off, pink beret and all.
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Not if they haven't left yet. Scotland could hold the referendum during our exit negotiations and then Remain in the EU on our terms if it's a Yes vote.
Yes. A referendum he would lose. So they will not hold it.
If the economy goes titsup after Brexit (and AEP admits this), then Scotland will again suffer due to an outcome it did not want and a government it did not elect.
Why do you think they would lose it?
Because they would have no viable economy, and no pound. Same as....
See my remark about how a devalued GBP changes the sums.
"Omar Mateen legally bought at least two guns a few days before the shooting, a federal official said. The make and model of each gun has not been released."
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
But a post-Brexit devalued GBP plugs it for them. Isn't oil priced in dollars? Drop GBP to £1=$1.2 from wherever it was in Sindyref1 (£1=$1.6?) and the sums begin to look better: it's equivalent to a 33% increase in the price of oil.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Actually the thing I find about this isn't the idea that Turks could come here on holiday etc, after all why not, but how hard the government has tried to hide what it is doing. Duplicitous B'stards. Almost like Liberal Democrats.
And in addition Cameron has effectively conceded that all his promises to the Turks about early entry to the EU were just leading them up the garden path, since he now denies that he's sincere about being prepared to go along with Turkish entry. So his basis for seeking the trust of the UK public is basically that he's a lying b*****d.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
More likely to be a factor in Trump vs Clinton than EU Ref, on reflection.
Trump gives the impression he wants such attacks to take place. This Tweet is a bit of a mistake: "Thanks for the congrats"????
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Not if they haven't left yet. Scotland could hold the referendum during our exit negotiations and then Remain in the EU on our terms if it's a Yes vote.
That would be a very tight schedule to keep.
I suspect that for the EU to contine existing opt outs as the price of Scotland staying in would be perfectly acceptable.
Yes. A referendum he would lose. So they will not hold it.
If the economy goes titsup after Brexit (and AEP admits this), then Scotland will again suffer due to an outcome it did not want and a government it did not elect.
Why do you think they would lose it?
Because they would have no viable economy, and no pound. Same as....
See my remark about how a devalued GBP changes the sums.
So accordingly to Kevin the Teenager basically it is a homophobic crime...and well could possibly maybe not really has to do with Islamism...
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
Of course it was a homophobic crime. The bloke deliberately targeted homosexuals. He hated them. It was a homophobic crime committed by a fanatical Moslem.
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
More likely to be a factor in Trump vs Clinton than EU Ref, on reflection.
Trump gives the impression he wants such attacks to take place. This Tweet is a bit of a mistake: "Thanks for the congrats"????
I had this very argument with a gay friend about 10-15 years ago. He's extremely liberal, Lib Dem, europhile, etc
I told him that if you allow too much Muslim immigration, in the end this would harm people like HIM and his gay friends, and their lifestyle, far more than someone like me, because Islam is a powerful, reactionary and extremely persistent belief system which won't change any time soon. Islam would try to change the societies it entered rather than BE changed.
He refused to believe it. Just shut the argument down. Claimed that Muslims would assimilate to western values and become much more tolerant.
We ended the argument there, rather than damage our friendship. I wonder what he thinks now.
It's hard to credit that it's now over 14 years since Pim Fortuyn's murder. These arguments ought to have become commonplace by now.
The problem with accepting all of these people, and their culture, is there’s no place for me in it. You get to have your ISIS friends, or you get to have Milo, because when you invite us to the same party… off the roof I go.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Yet more REMAIN propaganda and LIES!
That's a quote from someone voting Leave you numpty.
Sorry, Sunil was replying to your "Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics."
Are you now saying you are voting Leave?
I may be a numpty but at least I'm not a TPD Quisling Benedict Armold Petain
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Not if they haven't left yet. Scotland could hold the referendum during our exit negotiations and then Remain in the EU on our terms if it's a Yes vote.
That would be a very tight schedule to keep.
I suspect that for the EU to contine existing opt outs as the price of Scotland staying in would be perfectly acceptable.
They have to hold a referendum ahead of the UK exit. Whilst that will be slow, they can't just announce it can they?
Then the other problem is that a lot of the Scottish fishing industry will be backing the union all of a sudden. So it will be a tricky call.
I'd accept it's a non zero risk. It isn't above 10% though. Not by some margin.
Yes. A referendum he would lose. So they will not hold it.
If the economy goes titsup after Brexit (and AEP admits this), then Scotland will again suffer due to an outcome it did not want and a government it did not elect.
Why do you think they would lose it?
Because they would have no viable economy, and no pound. Same as....
See my remark about how a devalued GBP changes the sums.
Way off beam.
Well with eloquence like that, how can I possibly prevail...
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Not if they haven't left yet. Scotland could hold the referendum during our exit negotiations and then Remain in the EU on our terms if it's a Yes vote.
That would be a very tight schedule to keep.
Not really. It would mean 2 years to organise and have a referendum. If Scotland then votes to Remain then the EU are supreme masters of fudge. If Scotland votes Yes then a way will be found that they will be allowed to Remain on our old terms even once our two years are up. It may not be technically allowed but since when has that ever stopped them?
Yes. A referendum he would lose. So they will not hold it.
If the economy goes titsup after Brexit (and AEP admits this), then Scotland will again suffer due to an outcome it did not want and a government it did not elect.
Why do you think they would lose it?
Because they would have no viable economy, and no pound. Same as....
See my remark about how a devalued GBP changes the sums.
Way off beam.
Well with eloquence like that, how can I possibly prevail...
The last Indyref campaign began with No ahead by 30% and that got wiped out in the campaign. What'll happen if they begin with only a 10% lead
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
Not if they haven't left yet. Scotland could hold the referendum during our exit negotiations and then Remain in the EU on our terms if it's a Yes vote.
That would be a very tight schedule to keep.
Not really. It would mean 2 years to organise and have a referendum. If Scotland then votes to Remain then the EU are supreme masters of fudge. If Scotland votes Yes then a way will be found that they will be allowed to Remain on our old terms even once our two years are up. It may not be technically allowed but since when has that ever stopped them?
A post Brexit iScotland means a frontier along Hadrian's Wall, and two different currencies in Great Britain, and English tariffs on Scottish goods. It won't happen.
They'll get slaughtered unless they can fill the oil hole.
But a post-Brexit devalued GBP plugs it for them. Isn't oil priced in dollars? Drop GBP to £1=$1.2 from wherever it was in Sindyref1 (£1=$1.6?) and the sums begin to look better: it's equivalent to a 33% increase in the price of oil.
The pound will not drop to £1 to $1.2
If you'd've said in 2006 that in 2016 £=$1.44, people would have laughed at you. But here we are. From £1=$1.44 to £1=1.2 is a drop of about 17%. Drops in GBP of 20% have been forecast post-Brexit.
I had this very argument with a gay friend about 10-15 years ago. He's extremely liberal, Lib Dem, europhile, etc
I told him that if you allow too much Muslim immigration, in the end this would harm people like HIM and his gay friends, and their lifestyle, far more than someone like me, because Islam is a powerful, reactionary and extremely persistent belief system which won't change any time soon. Islam would try to change the societies it entered rather than BE changed.
He refused to believe it. Just shut the argument down. Claimed that Muslims would assimilate to western values and become much more tolerant.
We ended the argument there, rather than damage our friendship. I wonder what he thinks now.
Mind you I think a ban on alcohol and extra-marital sex might affect your lifestyle a bit too but your general point is a sound one, goodnight
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
Why do you Leavers believe any old bollocks?
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usually after the copy deadline :-)
Haha true. I liked that comment that they never knew which lady's email account he would be sending it from.
Apart from anything else, to bounce the country into EFTA after a campaign based on immigration would be an affront to democracy. You'd need, at the very least, a general election to allow people to vote on the basis of manifestos for a post-Brexit world.
There was indeed.
I wonder if the penny is beginning to drop for most people?
Except Owen Jones and his leftist liberals.
Talking about the mass murder of LGBT people in Orlando on Sky News at 10.30pm and 11.30pm. Messed up about it but will do my best.
Which contradicts the standard view that London has improved.
Now I'll agree that central London has improved and that's the part seen most by tourists and visitors. But its still only a small part of London overall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66CerfrwTMM
- Ambrose Evans Pritchard, 2016-06-12
http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/sunday-mirror-eu-referendum-poll/
Are you now saying you are voting Leave?
Is this going to be the limbo dancing line by sections of the left in response to this terrorist attack?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/
They try to justify this on the grounds that it's ok to be top (active) not bottom (passive) which is the most twisted depraved logic imaginable.
Mind you, a fair few Saudis also prop up the bars out there, especially during Ramadan.
Ignoring the fact that doing so would be unheard of and would set the precedent for any EU member state to renage on EU treaties, they wouldn't do it anyway because they want to keep trading with us.
This is not just some refinement of EU law. This is an external treaty which is the foundation of the EEA.
Something to do with gay men having really bad aim. But I digress
Yep that puts it pretty much perfectly.
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Why do you think they would lose it?
I keep imagining sitting there being told that an attack on a synagogue wasn't antisemitic. Fuck that.
Utterly wrong.
Yes there are some good, moderate, Muslims. But Islam has major problems with western lifestyle and it is NOT just a radical element that thinks so.
https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/742087613914468352
I know this is bad form, so take it in contrite spirit, but anyone else think this and the leaked Turkish memos may spell the end for Remain?
Don't know. The atmos is so febrile at the moment it may just get lost in the noise.
Remain were already in trouble. Who knows whether this will add to their woes.
What is more, if the UK is out of the EU, they then have to explain negotiating re entry, and how they will handle the Euro which, oddly given the evidence that it doesn't work, the EU will insist they join.
British politicians caring about British national interest is the ONLY way to get a good outcome. Schauble doesn't give a flying fudgecake about the British or Greek interests he looks after Germany. We need to do the same. We look after number one and Schauble can take it or leave it just as he treats everyone else.
More likely to be a factor in Trump vs Clinton than EU Ref, on reflection.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/742102254833020929
Another Remain crime!
BREAKING: more leaked docs reveals the European Commission plotted to “slipstream” visa liberalisation for Kosovo: https://t.co/PRw9EghXs1 Exactly
Any chance the VI result was buried due to not being liked by the Mirror?
ComRes have long stated they wouldn't be doing any online EURef VI polls, because they think their phone polls will be more accurate.
Trump gives the impression he wants such attacks to take place. This Tweet is a bit of a mistake: "Thanks for the congrats"????
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/742034549232766976
Just seen @OwenJones84 on Sky. Good for him. He's 100% right.
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/742034549232766976
He just can't help himself telling everybody that he was right...
And Eddie Izzard would be the first to have his head lopped off, pink beret and all.
"Omar Mateen legally bought at least two guns a few days before the shooting, a federal official said. The make and model of each gun has not been released."
Par for the course for Trump. What sort of national leader behaves like this in the hours straight after an event?
He says he DOESN'T want congratulations - are you so blinkered you can't even read what he says???
Some millennials do get it.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/11/16/im-a-gay-man-and-mass-muslim-immigration-terrifies-me/
The problem with accepting all of these people, and their culture, is there’s no place for me in it. You get to have your ISIS friends, or you get to have Milo, because when you invite us to the same party… off the roof I go.
Then the other problem is that a lot of the Scottish fishing industry will be backing the union all of a sudden. So it will be a tricky call.
I'd accept it's a non zero risk. It isn't above 10% though. Not by some margin.