The ban is back. Trump is bringing back the ban Muslims from the USA policy.
Please vote Remain, so my holiday to America in two weeks' time isn't postponed.
Brexit means I might never go to America ever again.
What's Brexit got to do with you going to the US?
I have a holiday booked for Florida and Canada booked starting June 26th.
My employers have decided, as Brexit impacts the firm significantly, key staff will need to man the barricades, so no holidays to be honoured.
I am one of they key employees.
Is one of the reasons I have to go to Paris in the morning.
Sometimes it is a curse to be a French speaker.
Brexit means I have to spend more time in France.
Were you all on duty for the Millennium bug as well?
I was running the response team in an Ops Room for Standard Chartered Bank that night.
Were you busy?
I remember going to conferences where we were assured that litigation arising from it was going to clog the courts for a decade. Didn't quite work out that way.
Technically the NDA still counts but I doubt their ninjas will hunt me down now.
We were directly connected to every regional SC head office around the globe and all faults were logged centrally. A few things broke; a door entry system somewhere, aircon somewhere else etc., But it was a quiet night.
It should have been. We had been debugging and testing for almost a year.
An awful lot of people spent an awful lot of time making sure that nothing happened - and they did it so successfully that they regularly get reviled on blogs.
(Generic Date exclusion clauses still exist in insurance policies)
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Vote leave to pull up the drawbridge.
I think we've ended up with both sides fighting an imaginary foe. Remainers are happy to play at SJW-lite, fighting against a Britain of zero immigration, mass deportations, state-sponsored discrimination and a bonfire of human rights.
Leavers are fighting against a vast array of Eurocrats, each of which is wearing a monocle and stroking a white persian cat.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
I wonder if any of the chefs piss or gob in SeanT's freebies
Do chefs actually do that to obnoxious customers or is it just an eternal joke / fear ?
Surely the source of knowledge which is PB could confirm if that does happen.
The ban is back. Trump is bringing back the ban Muslims from the USA policy.
Please vote Remain, so my holiday to America in two weeks' time isn't postponed.
Brexit means I might never go to America ever again.
What's Brexit got to do with you going to the US?
I have a holiday booked for Florida and Canada booked starting June 26th.
My employers have decided, as Brexit impacts the firm significantly, key staff will need to man the barricades, so no holidays to be honoured.
I am one of they key employees.
Is one of the reasons I have to go to Paris in the morning.
Sometimes it is a curse to be a French speaker.
Brexit means I have to spend more time in France.
Were you all on duty for the Millennium bug as well?
I was running the response team in an Ops Room for Standard Chartered Bank that night.
Were you busy?
I remember going to conferences where we were assured that litigation arising from it was going to clog the courts for a decade. Didn't quite work out that way.
It didn't work out that way because thousands of workers (me included) put in thousands of hours to make sure everything was fixed before it could become a problem. Changing two-digit dates to four-digit dates, testing the changes and installing it is not actually that hard in programming terms, but there was a hell of a lot to do - preparation started years in advance. If it hadn't been done, there would have been serious problems. Having a load of people on call over the millennium period was a tiny investment in comparison to the years of effort that had gone on beforehand, and not imprudent in the circumstances.
Returning to your views on how much more impressive London is now than in your student days.
The old, declining London had numerous Conservative voting areas in middle suburbia which it doesn't do now - the Ealings, the Lewishams, the Ilfords, Hornsey, Streatham etc.
Are your views on how London has improved too much influenced by central London ?
I'd certainly agree that Kings Cross is much improved these days over what it was in the 1980s and 1990s but you can probably say the same about every mainline railway station and its environs in the country.
30 or 40 years ago there was no question that New York was the world's premier city with London some way behind, now the two are at least level and London may even be slightly ahead. As for London suburbia there are still a few Tory suburbs about, Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Harrow etc
I wonder how many Americans would agree that London is the equal of New York.
Or people from other countries.
I suspect there's an element of Londoners bigging up their city.
These are all very nebulous, of course, but they do reveal a trend
Which brings me back to my original point.
If London is so much better than it was why is it so much worse for the Conservatives.
Isn't it now a city of extremes - great if you're really rich and great if you're an immigrant from some shithole.
But for the average person with the average family who wants an average job and an average life with an average house its almost unliveable.
Its egg-timer shaped rather than egg shaped.
Its difficult now to imagine all those sitcoms of ordinary families which were once set in London now existing.
But the same can be said of any great world city - New York, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo.
It could probably be said of any great world city through history. By definition globally successful mega-cities are tough places to live if you are earning an average wage, hoping to bring up a family.
The comfy suburban London you describe was the London of 1930-1970, which was actually a London of quite serious decline, financially and demographically.
I don't think this is fixable. You can have a great world capital city or a capital city which is cheap and liveable. But not both.
I think Tokyo would be the exception to that - apart from a few areas it's crazy cheap these days, and you wouldn't have a hard time getting by on an average wage. Maybe that's sign that it's in decline, though.
If Tokyo is currently in decline, then all cities should wish for such decline.
The dynamism of London is hard to define, but seems to mean that people raising young children are verboten. Only those spending money on fripperies like overpriced carbohydrates and Secret Cinema are permitted.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
"German MPs of Turkish origin have been warned not to travel to Turkey and will get increased police protection after Germany's parliament declared the 1915 massacre of Armenians a "genocide", according to media reports.
Eleven MPs have been getting threats after the resolution, which has injected fresh tensions between Germany and Turkey, was passed in the beginning of June, the reports say.
Turkey condemns Germany over 'Armenia genocide' declaration Der Spiegel, a German newsmagazine, said the foreign ministry had warned the MPs against travelling to Turkey because their safety could not be guaranteed."
Erdogan is repellent. But I don't believe that means the Turkish people are. I feel sorry for them - he had a great start, didn't he? Now he appears to be travelling down a well trodden route to bog standard middle eastern autocrat.
And if large numbers of Turks also decide Erdogan is repellent and want to leave Turkey and go to the EU to avoid the middle eastern autocrat...?
I know we've all been bitten by the previous, bogus forecasts (what was it originally? 30,000 Poles?), this time I do think there are good reasons to believe that Turkish citizens would likely prefer Germany to the UK. That's very I'm-alright-Jack of me I know.
The Daily Mail is having kittens because: Muslims. I have no magic wand to wave to solve 21st century Salafism, despite my God-like PB-(ex)Tory powers.
The ban is back. Trump is bringing back the ban Muslims from the USA policy.
Please vote Remain, so my holiday to America in two weeks' time isn't postponed.
Brexit means I might never go to America ever again.
What's Brexit got to do with you going to the US?
I have a holiday booked for Florida and Canada booked starting June 26th.
My employers have decided, as Brexit impacts the firm significantly, key staff will need to man the barricades, so no holidays to be honoured.
I am one of they key employees.
Is one of the reasons I have to go to Paris in the morning.
Sometimes it is a curse to be a French speaker.
Brexit means I have to spend more time in France.
Were you all on duty for the Millennium bug as well?
I was running the response team in an Ops Room for Standard Chartered Bank that night.
Were you busy?
I remember going to conferences where we were assured that litigation arising from it was going to clog the courts for a decade. Didn't quite work out that way.
It didn't work out that way because thousands of workers (me included) put in thousands of hours to make sure everything was fixed before it could become a problem. Changing two-digit dates to four-digit dates, testing the changes and installing it is not actually that hard in programming terms, but there was a hell of a lot to do - preparation started years in advance. If it hadn't been done, there would have been serious problems. Having a load of people on call over the millennium period was a tiny investment in comparison to the years of effort that had gone on beforehand, and not imprudent in the circumstances.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Talking bollocks again Topping. It really is becoming a habit with you.
Since the question was directed at me your comment about controlling immigration simply does not apply as I have never claimed immigration was a reason for wanting Brexit. Indeed I have made very clear that I want to join the EEA and recognise that it will mean we still have freedom of movement.
You really must try harder.
Yes I agree sweetheart.
You, in your munificence, are happy to have free movement of people.
However, had you a scintilla of intelligence (a big ask, I appreciate), you would have understood my point that despite what you and other PB Leavers' ideal version of Out may be, the electorate doesn't want it.
They want no free movement and, according to, um, the official Leave campaign, out of the Single Market.
But you know better, right?
Of course I know better. Because that is what all the polls say. You seem to be able to read the minds of the public without any reference to actual data.
In case you missed it the Yougov poll yesterday showed that 42% of Leave supporters would be happy with the Norway option. Now unless you are claiming that Remain supporters would rather choose complete exit to the EEA - something that frankly only a lunatic would claim (so I do expect it from you at some point this evening) - then there would be an overwhelming majority in favour of the EEA option after Brexit.
Them's the numbers. Added to the fact that an overwhelming majority of MPs would go for the EEA option I am afraid your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.
so what is the VLTC campaign about, then? Why are Boris, Michael, Nige (of course) all leading on controlling our borders and having access to the single market rather than being a part of it, whatever, to borrow from @SeanT, the fuck that means? Why on every vox pop we hear, is the overriding concern immigration?
The vast majority of Leave voters want to control immigration and to hell with all the economic details which that would entail. One opinion poll showing less than half of those polled wanted what you think is best for the country is hardly a slam dunk, is it?
I don't even have to be insulting here, Richard - that is transparent rubbish. Even you must realise that. I also think that you must be edging towards Remain, as it dawns on you that if we get what the official campaign wants, if we get what the majority of Leave voters want, it will bring down the house around us.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Talking bollocks again Topping. It really is becoming a habit with you.
Since the question was directed at me your comment about controlling immigration simply does not apply as I have never claimed immigration was a reason for wanting Brexit. Indeed I have made very clear that I want to join the EEA and recognise that it will mean we still have freedom of movement.
You really must try harder.
Yes I agree sweetheart.
You, in your munificence, are happy to have free movement of people.
However, had you a scintilla of intelligence (a big ask, I appreciate), you would have understood my point that despite what you and other PB Leavers' ideal version of Out may be, the electorate doesn't want it.
They want no free movement and, according to, um, the official Leave campaign, out of the Single Market.
But you know better, right?
Of course I know better. Because that is what all the polls say. You seem to be able to read the minds of the public without any reference to actual data.
In case you missed it the Yougov poll yesterday showed that 42% of Leave supporters would be happy with the Norway option. Now unless you are claiming that Remain supporters would rather choose complete exit to the EEA - something that frankly only a lunatic would claim (so I do expect it from you at some point this evening) - then there would be an overwhelming majority in favour of the EEA option after Brexit.
Them's the numbers. Added to the fact that an overwhelming majority of MPs would go for the EEA option I am afraid your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.
Them's the distortions.
In a forced choice between being in the EU and the Norway option, people chose the EU. In a forced choice between the Norway option and out on our ear, people chose the Norway option. In both cases people prefer more Europe.
It's only by making the choice between being in the EU and controlling immigration that you can contrive a majority for Leave.
You can put that one the other way around. Why do the REMAINERS love the EU so much? Because they believe any old bollocks.
Seriously, there's no "both sides are doing it" parallel on this one. Anti-EU people are driven by a continuous stream of vastly exaggerated or entirely bogus claims. This isn't at all true of the pro-EU side; I know the government are making up a bunch of lies for the referendum, but they're aimed at the waverers, not the true believers. A better response from the anti-side would be that the pro-EU side are driven by a *worldview* that's mistaken, but there's nothing like it in terms of easily-debunked false factual claims.
Maybe the pro-EU side would have a firmer bedrock of lies to stand on if they had their own populist media to push them with. You'd think the Bilderberg group could afford to buy a few newspapers, wouldn't you?
Fuck off.
The pro-EU campaign has lies in its fucking DNA. It is a lie incarnate. It is a lie made flesh. It is the essence of lies. It is the great mothership of mendacity. Because it pretends, to the Brits at least, that the EU is not a superstate-in-the-making. Which is a lie.
Compared to that overwhelming deception, all other fibs are footling trivialities. The EU, as sold to the British, IS a lie.
And you, Sir, are a liar.
"Fuck Off"?
It's that cheap Italian plonk talking, isn't it Sean?
Basing your wine choice on one country, one apellation, one vintage, and now one price, isn't a sign of knowledge. You should try and broaden your palate, you'd enjoy it.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
I wonder if any of the chefs piss or gob in SeanT's freebies
Do chefs actually do that to obnoxious customers or is it just an eternal joke / fear ?
Surely the source of knowledge which is PB could confirm if that does happen.
Having worked in a couple of places while a medical student to pay the bills, I would suggest not being a tosser in the way you treat serving staff is good advice. There are many ways to get revenge.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
I wonder if any of the chefs piss or gob in SeanT's freebies
Do chefs actually do that to obnoxious customers or is it just an eternal joke / fear ?
Surely the source of knowledge which is PB could confirm if that does happen.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
You can put that one the other way around. Why do the REMAINERS love the EU so much? Because they believe any old bollocks.
Seriously, there's no "both sides are doing it" parallel on this one. Anti-EU people are driven by a continuous stream of vastly exaggerated or entirely bogus claims. This isn't at all true of the pro-EU side; I know the government are making up a bunch of lies for the referendum, but they're aimed at the waverers, not the true believers. A better response from the anti-side would be that the pro-EU side are driven by a *worldview* that's mistaken, but there's nothing like it in terms of easily-debunked false factual claims.
Maybe the pro-EU side would have a firmer bedrock of lies to stand on if they had their own populist media to push them with. You'd think the Bilderberg group could afford to buy a few newspapers, wouldn't you?
Fuck off.
The pro-EU campaign has lies in its fucking DNA. It is a lie incarnate. It is a lie made flesh. It is the essence of lies. It is the great mothership of mendacity. Because it pretends, to the Brits at least, that the EU is not a superstate-in-the-making. Which is a lie.
Compared to that overwhelming deception, all other fibs are footling trivialities. The EU, as sold to the British, IS a lie.
And you, Sir, are a liar.
"Fuck Off"?
It's that cheap Italian plonk talking, isn't it Sean?
Doubt it. I expect it's expensive where ever it comes from.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
lol. I'm going here tomorrow, for a week - to eat all the best food and drink blah bah.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Discriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
I wonder if any of the chefs piss or gob in SeanT's freebies
Do chefs actually do that to obnoxious customers or is it just an eternal joke / fear ?
Surely the source of knowledge which is PB could confirm if that does happen.
They do sometimes like to play little nasties on solitary women who dare to think they are worthy of a seat in their restaurant. A handy lump of soil hidden amongst the lettuce, for example.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
so what is the VLTC campaign about, then? Why are Boris, Michael, Nige (of course) all leading on controlling our borders and having access to the single market rather than being a part of it, whatever, to borrow from @SeanT, the fuck that means? Why on every vox pop we hear, is the overriding concern immigration?
The vast majority of Leave voters want to control immigration and to hell with all the economic details which that would entail. One opinion poll showing less than half of those polled wanted what you think is best for the country is hardly a slam dunk, is it?
I don't even have to be insulting here, Richard - that is transparent rubbish. Even you must realise that. I also think that you must be edging towards Remain, as it dawns on you that if we get what the official campaign wants, if we get what the majority of Leave voters want, it will bring down the house around us.
Because they think that is what they need to do to win. I think they are wrong but they seem to think if they don't go with immigration they won't get enough support.
Remember I have already described the Leave and Remain campaign's as grades of dogsh!t this evening. I am not going to defend VLTC for a minute. I honestly believe that if they had chosen the EEA option from the start they would be miles ahead right now. It completely destroys the Remain argument on the economy and the polling shows that clearly the majority of the public are in favour of it if we do leave.
And if you bother to read the actual poll detail it was more than 2:1 in favour of the Norway option if we choose to leave by ALL respondents - both Remain and Leave. Over 75% of Remain supporters prefer the Norway option in the event of Leave winning.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
What extra demand? They'd be coming as tourists, with a maximum stay of 90 days.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
RACIST REMAINERS!
Why is it racist, Sunil?
Because EU countries are predominantly white Non-EU countries are predominantly non-white
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
Oh right, I thought this was about their eventual membership. Sorry
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
What extra demand? They'd be coming as tourists, with a maximum stay of 90 days.
My apologies, I was confused. See my reply to foxinsoxuk!
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
The ban is back. Trump is bringing back the ban Muslims from the USA policy.
Please vote Remain, so my holiday to America in two weeks' time isn't postponed.
Brexit means I might never go to America ever again.
What's Brexit got to do with you going to the US?
I have a holiday booked for Florida and Canada booked starting June 26th.
My employers have decided, as Brexit impacts the firm significantly, key staff will need to man the barricades, so no holidays to be honoured.
I am one of they key employees.
Is one of the reasons I have to go to Paris in the morning.
Sometimes it is a curse to be a French speaker.
Brexit means I have to spend more time in France.
Given that Brexit, even IF it is voted for, is likely to take at least 4 years to take place, even by the like's of Gove's own admission, and possibly a good deal longer (personally I'm convinced that we'll never leave the EU, no matter how strong is LEAVE's support on 23 June) - don't you think your employers are perhaps being just a little hasty? No, I'll rephrase that - don't you think they are being ridiculously and utterly foolishly hasty in ordering their staff to cancel holidays, etc., years and years ahead of a possible but probably unlikely event?
Not really, we can't afford to take that risk.
Access to the single passport is essential for us.
Hi can I just ask u a lot on here are critisising you about supporting IN and saying ur only doing it because you want to be loyal to Cameron. Is there truth in that or is it because the sector you work in (financial services is it?) will be affected and since you don't agree with the perception of recent migration being bad you have no real reason to support leave.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
What extra demand? They'd be coming as tourists, with a maximum stay of 90 days.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
These would generally be the richest, best-connected Turks, wouldn't it?
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
You can put that one the other way around. Why do the REMAINERS love the EU so much? Because they believe any old bollocks.
Seriously, there's no "both sides are doing it" parallel on this one. Anti-EU people are driven by a continuous stream of vastly exaggerated or entirely bogus claims. This isn't at all true of the pro-EU side; I know the government are making up a bunch of lies for the referendum, but they're aimed at the waverers, not the true believers. A better response from the anti-side would be that the pro-EU side are driven by a *worldview* that's mistaken, but there's nothing like it in terms of easily-debunked false factual claims.
Maybe the pro-EU side would have a firmer bedrock of lies to stand on if they had their own populist media to push them with. You'd think the Bilderberg group could afford to buy a few newspapers, wouldn't you?
Fuck off.
The pro-EU campaign has lies in its fucking DNA. It is a lie incarnate. It is a lie made flesh. It is the essence of lies. It is the great mothership of mendacity. Because it pretends, to the Brits at least, that the EU is not a superstate-in-the-making. Which is a lie.
Compared to that overwhelming deception, all other fibs are footling trivialities. The EU, as sold to the British, IS a lie.
And you, Sir, are a liar.
"Fuck Off"?
It's that cheap Italian plonk talking, isn't it Sean?
Basing your wine choice on one country, one apellation, one vintage, and now one price, isn't a sign of knowledge. You should try and broaden your palate, you'd enjoy it.
1995 left bank?
I'd love to see you do a blind tasting. If I'm wrong may I be forgiven, but I have a sneaking suspicion you wouldn't know a Bordeaux from a Border Collie.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Talking bollocks again Topping. It really is becoming a habit with you.
Since the question was directed at me your comment about controlling immigration simply does not apply as I have never claimed immigration was a reason for wanting Brexit. Indeed I have made very clear that I want to join the EEA and recognise that it will mean we still have freedom of movement.
You really must try harder.
Yes I agree sweetheart.
You, in your munificence, are happy to have free movement of people.
However, had you a scintilla of intelligence (a big ask, I appreciate), you would have understood my point that despite what you and other PB Leavers' ideal version of Out may be, the electorate doesn't want it.
They want no free movement and, according to, um, the official Leave campaign, out of the Single Market.
But you know better, right?
Of course I know better. Because that is what all the polls say. You seem to be able to read the minds of the public without any reference to actual data.
In case you missed it the Yougov poll yesterday showed that 42% of Leave supporters would be happy with the Norway option. Now unless you are claiming that Remain supporters would rather choose complete exit to the EEA - something that frankly only a lunatic would claim (so I do expect it from you at some point this evening) - then there would be an overwhelming majority in favour of the EEA option after Brexit.
Them's the numbers. Added to the fact that an overwhelming majority of MPs would go for the EEA option I am afraid your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.
Them's the distortions.
In a forced choice between being in the EU and the Norway option, people chose the EU. In a forced choice between the Norway option and out on our ear, people chose the Norway option. In both cases people prefer more Europe.
It's only by making the choice between being in the EU and controlling immigration that you can contrive a majority for Leave.
We are only talking about in the case of Leave winning.
Topping for some strange reason seems to think that if Leave win then the majority of the British public will want complete separation - as if those who voted Remain are no longer allowed to have a say in the matter. I mean I know we have seen Tyson complaining about democracy on here recently and how he would prefer it if people they disagreed with were not allowed to vote but I didn't think Topping was quite that far gone. He is suggesting that the people he DOES agree with would have no further input into the future of the country.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
These would generally be the richest, best-connected Turks, wouldn't it?
The British equivalent to their special passport would probably be a "Good Egg" passport.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
Oh right, I thought this was about their eventual membership. Sorry
I think that was the impression that the Daily Mail headline intended to convey.
We are in the realm of post truth politics where even known lies are continued with because they work. It is not just a UK phenomenon and not likely to end well.
Returning to your views on how much more impressive London is now than in your student days.
The old, declining London had numerous Conservative voting areas in middle suburbia which it doesn't do now - the Ealings, the Lewishams, the Ilfords, Hornsey, Streatham etc.
Are your views on how London has improved too much influenced by central London ?
I'd certainly agree that Kings Cross is much improved these days over what it was in the 1980s and 1990s but you can probably say the same about every mainline railway station and its environs in the country.
30 or 40 years ago there was no question that New York was the world's premier city with London some way behind, now the two are at least level and London may even be slightly ahead. As for London suburbia there are still a few Tory suburbs about, Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Harrow etc
I wonder how many Americans would agree that London is the equal of New York.
Or people from other countries.
I suspect there's an element of Londoners bigging up their city.
These are all very nebulous, of course, but they do reveal a trend
Which brings me back to my original point.
If London is so much better than it was why is it so much worse for the Conservatives.
Isn't it now a city of extremes - great if you're really rich and great if you're an immigrant from some shithole.
But for the average person with the average family who wants an average job and an average life with an average house its almost unliveable.
Its egg-timer shaped rather than egg shaped.
Its difficult now to imagine all those sitcoms of ordinary families which were once set in London now existing.
New York City is hardly great for Republicans either is it, most people in either city rent with only the richest able to buy and both cities are socially liberal and filled with immigrants. Middle income earners in London tend to move out to Kent or Essex once they want to buy a house and start a family
But 30 years ago when London was apparently at its trough it was good for the Conservatives. Not unconnected to middle income earners being able to afford to buy in London in those days.
Indeed but seats like Dartford and Basildon which used to lean to Labour are now leaning to the Tories because those very same voters have moved out of London suburbs to them, at the same time turning those London suburban seats more to Labour
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
Oh right, I thought this was about their eventual membership. Sorry
I think that was the impression that the Daily Mail headline intended to convey.
We are in the realm of post truth politics where even known lies are continued with because they work. It is not just a UK phenomenon and not likely to end well.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
What extra demand? They'd be coming as tourists, with a maximum stay of 90 days.
There might be a shortage of hotel beds.
Shit, that's it. We'd have to build more hotels and that would mean more work for EU migrants who would price Brits out. Best not to go down that path. Leave the hotels unbuilt, the rich Turks in Turkey and the extra tax money uncollected.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
I quite agree. It's like a cancer - very hard to disentangle. But the sooner the better.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Talking bollocks again Topping. It really is becoming a habit with you.
Since the question was directed at me your comment about controlling immigration simply does not apply as I have never claimed immigration was a reason for wanting Brexit. Indeed I have made very clear that I want to join the EEA and recognise that it will mean we still have freedom of movement.
You really must try harder.
Yes I agree sweetheart.
You, in your munificence, are happy to have free movement of people.
However, had you a scintilla of intelligence (a big ask, I appreciate), you would have understood my point that despite what you and other PB Leavers' ideal version of Out may be, the electorate doesn't want it.
They want no free movement and, according to, um, the official Leave campaign, out of the Single Market.
But you know better, right?
Of course I know better. Because that is what all the polls say. You seem to be able to read the minds of the public without any reference to actual data.
In case you missed it the Yougov poll yesterday showed that 42% of Leave supporters would be happy with the Norway option. Now unless you are claiming that Remain supporters would rather choose complete exit to the EEA - something that frankly only a lunatic would claim (so I do expect it from you at some point this evening) - then there would be an overwhelming majority in favour of the EEA option after Brexit.
Them's the numbers. Added to the fact that an overwhelming majority of MPs would go for the EEA option I am afraid your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.
Them's the distortions.
In a forced choice between being in the EU and the Norway option, people chose the EU. In a forced choice between the Norway option and out on our ear, people chose the Norway option. In both cases people prefer more Europe.
It's only by making the choice between being in the EU and controlling immigration that you can contrive a majority for Leave.
We are only talking about in the case of Leave winning.
Topping for some strange reason seems to think that if Leave win then the majority of the British public will want complete separation - as if those who voted Remain are no longer allowed to have a say in the matter. I mean I know we have seen Tyson complaining about democracy on here recently and how he would prefer it if people they disagreed with were not allowed to vote but I didn't think Topping was quite that far gone. He is suggesting that the people he DOES agree with would have no further input into the future of the country.
A very strange argument.
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
Anyone watching the local north west debate with Nuttal and Nandy? Nandy really is inept. Put another one in the leave column.
Bravo! Welcome aboard.
We have Claire Moody (Lab MEP) for remain. Big on hand waving, not addressing the three main problems brought up: fishing, strain on public services and impact of immigration on our current population.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
Oh right, I thought this was about their eventual membership. Sorry
I think that was the impression that the Daily Mail headline intended to convey.
We are in the realm of post truth politics where even known lies are continued with because they work. It is not just a UK phenomenon and not likely to end well.
It's classic "cock up not conspiracy". There was nothing for the FO to be coy about, who doesn't want business travellers and tourists?
But they assume that there's some kind of nascent Islamophobic backlash so they try and keep it hush-hush...and now it's become Daily Mail clickbait. Morons abound.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
RACIST REMAINERS!
Why is it racist, Sunil?
Because people are being discriminated against purely on where they were born. That is racist - every loonie lefty screams it to the rooftops at the slightest provocation, so it must be so.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
I thought the whole point of the special passport in the first place was that the people who have them are basically civil servants for the Turkish Government and other officials who need to travel anyway. Why should this make any difference at all?
Are we really supposed to take anything in the Mail or Express seriously anyway?
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
That sounds reminiscent of Bono's comments after the Bataclan massacre being the 'first direct hit on music that we’ve had in this so-called War on Terror, or whatever it’s called'.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
RACIST REMAINERS!
Why is it racist, Sunil?
Because EU countries are predominantly white Non-EU countries are predominantly non-white
RACIST REMAINERS!
I'm afraid that's nonsense. Of course, a Leave vote will actually mean less non-EU immigration.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Yet more REMAIN propaganda and LIES!
That's a quote from someone voting Leave you numpty.
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
You can put that one the other way around. Why do the REMAINERS love the EU so much? Because they believe any old bollocks.
Seriously, there's no "both sides are doing it" parallel on this one. Anti-EU people are driven by a continuous stream of vastly exaggerated or entirely bogus claims. This isn't at all true of the pro-EU side; I know the government are making up a bunch of lies for the referendum, but they're aimed at the waverers, not the true believers. A better response from the anti-side would be that the pro-EU side are driven by a *worldview* that's mistaken, but there's nothing like it in terms of easily-debunked false factual claims.
Maybe the pro-EU side would have a firmer bedrock of lies to stand on if they had their own populist media to push them with. You'd think the Bilderberg group could afford to buy a few newspapers, wouldn't you?
Fuck off.
The pro-EU campaign has lies in its fucking DNA. It is a lie incarnate. It is a lie made flesh. It is the essence of lies. It is the great mothership of mendacity. Because it pretends, to the Brits at least, that the EU is not a superstate-in-the-making. Which is a lie.
Compared to that overwhelming deception, all other fibs are footling trivialities. The EU, as sold to the British, IS a lie.
And you, Sir, are a liar.
Does SeanT moonlight as a speech writer for Boris by any chance?
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
I don't think it's about them breaking the law, I think it's more to do with extra demand on housing, jobs, and public services.
No visa for short term holidays or business for a subset of 2% of the Turkish population is not going to put pressure on either housing or jobs.
Oh right, I thought this was about their eventual membership. Sorry
I think that was the impression that the Daily Mail headline intended to convey.
We are in the realm of post truth politics where even known lies are continued with because they work. It is not just a UK phenomenon and not likely to end well.
... or as Goebbels put it;
"The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."
Then please tell the free-traders on here that when Vote Leave say they want controlled immigration and not join the EEA, they actually mean controlled immigration and not join the EEA. There are a lot of people on here who have convinced themselves that LEAVE is just a transfer from the EU to the EEA, with little/no change in freedom of movement.
(Parenthetically, I must also re-remind you that controlled immigration is not the same as immigration limits, and that that difference is important...)
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Excellent points.
But once the break is made then we can go our own way - otherwise you are basically saying we must go down with the Titanic standing to attention as the band plays Autumn.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Fantastic news for pro-EU, metropolitan lawyers. They'll make an absolute fortune.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
That sounds like an argument for leaving sooner rather than later as it won't be any easier 20 years from now.
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Yet more REMAIN propaganda and LIES!
That's a quote from someone voting Leave you numpty.
TSE continues stolidly with his REMAIN propaganda!
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
RACIST REMAINERS!
Why is it racist, Sunil?
Because people are being discriminated against purely on where they were born. That is racist - every loonie lefty screams it to the rooftops at the slightest provocation, so it must be so.
So what the loony left says is true is true. I see.
What you need to understand is that in the teeny little PB bubble the "intelligentsia" have decided that despite the main motive of Leavers being to control immigration, and despite the Leave leaders stating they want to leave the Single Market, actually, apropos of nothing, what is best for the country is to immediately rejoin the EEA and apply the emergency brake (a temporary measure to be used as in exceptional circumstances), which will mean immigration just about unchanged from the status quo ante.
It is pure PB Leavers' fantasy.
this is a topic that I will be coming back to pop pickers.
Meanwhile, on topic - £25 gets you a decent every day 2005 claret. Why would you want to muck around with Italian or Californian wines?
Because great Italian wines, Brunello, Barolo, Amarone, etc, are so much fucking better than insipid claret.
You sound like a student who has just found a bottle of Jacob's Creek in the local offie.
I rather fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, old boy, mainly because I am PAID TO DO IT FOR A LIVING
There's a certain class of claret lover who loves claret because it's all they know. They tend to be over 70.
I fancy I eat and drink very much better than you, mainly because I PAY OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO IT FOR A LIVING, RATHER THAN GETTING IT FOR FREE.
That said, I remember, vaguely, the thrill of getting freebies, whatever the quality.
lol. I'm going here tomorrow, for a week - to eat all the best food and drink blah bah.
What are you doing? Weekend in Cannes at some point? Bottle of average claret with some OK frites on "the Corniche"?
Long weekend in Skeggy.
Cannot be beaten.
(you seem a touch insecure this evening, are you one of the PB Leavers heading back to Remain, by any chance?)
Good. I win the argument. Because this is just a stupid argument.
I imagine you are some kind of stockbroker, or financier, or were? If you are, I will bow to your superior knowledge in that department. Stocks and shares - eek, I'm an amateur, and I admit it. You know more than me. I'll argue my case but bow to the wiser man, in the end.
But this is my job. Food, wine, restaurants, hotels. I do it for a living, and I do it in the best places, because I am a lucky fucker. And I've now been doing it 30 years, which tends to add up.
That makes me 1. obnoxious, 2, annoying, but also 3. more knowledgeable ON THESE SUBJECTS than anyone else I generally meet (apart from expert specialised restaurant critics and dedicated wine writers, to whom I yield in their respective departments)
There are many many people on pb who know far far more than me about almost everything, but wine, food and hotels? Hmm.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
RACIST REMAINERS!
Why is it racist, Sunil?
Because EU countries are predominantly white Non-EU countries are predominantly non-white
RACIST REMAINERS!
I'm afraid that's nonsense. Of course, a Leave vote will actually mean less non-EU immigration.
But as Schaeuble said, you have to respect the sovereignty of the British people. Out means out, not splitting the difference and trying to strong arm our way into an arrangement that the EU doesn't want to give us and that the British people won't have voted for.
That is not for Schauble to decide. It will indeed be for the British people to decide what their future is and if the wish to remain in the EEA then that will be the result.
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
And that kind of approach to diplomacy will lead to a good outcome in the medium term?
did anyone just see Owen Jones walk of the sky news set? wtf happened....
what was said was Owen Jones kept on going on about the biggest attack on LGBT but the host said they are all human beings and whats the difference between being in a gay club in orlando and a rock concert in France
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
He's wrong. Although what Hartley said was silly but not homophobia. Yes the club was specifically targeted because it was a gay club. but its not homophobia because isis target everyone and we shouldn't use words like homophobia lightly.
I'd love to ban all the -phobias. It's just debasing debate. I'd never label someone transphobic because they don't like me. That's to reduce another human being to a caricature.
Salafists have very specific reasons as to why they dislike gay folk. To them it's not irrational at all.
What the flying fuck is the Mail on about? This is the sort of nonsense that gets people tarred as parochial xenephobic racists. I should know.
Why would we not want Turks to visit this country? They're lovely, hospitable people. NATO members, origin country of our own patron saint etc.
I really think the EU did us all a disservice by postponing proposals post-referendum, it feeds a certain amount of paranoia.
Letting Turkish "special passport" holders in for 90 days visa free for holiday or business is
1) just a proposal for discussion
2) means that we can deport them if working etc.
3) the same as 56 other countries
It also has nothing to do with our membership of the EU as we can discriminate on non-EU immigration and would presumably have had the same policy if we weren't in the EU.
It's racism, pure and simple. Nasty Turks will break the law and stay here. This where we are now at with the referendum. I very much hope the Tory Leavers leave this well alone. They are going to be leading this country very soon and need to show a level of responsibility.
Descriminating against non-EU in favour of EU immigrants is racist!
RACIST REMAINERS!
Why is it racist, Sunil?
Because EU countries are predominantly white Non-EU countries are predominantly non-white
RACIST REMAINERS!
I'm afraid that's nonsense. Of course, a Leave vote will actually mean less non-EU immigration.
Naught but RACIST REMAINER propaganda!
I bet you really wish green ink was available for posts. :-D
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Not only Robert.
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.
Fantastic news for pro-EU, metropolitan lawyers. They'll make an absolute fortune.
Just imagine the coinage if Brexit leads to an independent Scotland and Northern Ireland joining the Republic as well.
Anyone watching the local north west debate with Nuttal and Nandy? Nandy really is inept. Put another one in the leave column.
Bravo! Welcome aboard.
We have Claire Moody (Lab MEP) for remain. Big on hand waving, not addressing the three main problems brought up: fishing, strain on public services and impact of immigration on our current population.
I have always been pro-brexit, should have been clearer. My European arts funded Mrs has now gone from undecided to Leave on the back of Nandys performance!
Personally, i am stuck in an awful position of cheering Remain on for work and personally supporting Brexit though i will gladly take the hit.
Returning to your views on how much more impressive London is now than in your student days.
The old, declining London had numerous Conservative voting areas in middle suburbia which it doesn't do now - the Ealings, the Lewishams, the Ilfords, Hornsey, Streatham etc.
Are your views on how London has improved too much influenced by central London ?
I'd certainly agree that Kings Cross is much improved these days over what it was in the 1980s and 1990s but you can probably say the same about every mainline railway station and its environs in the country.
30 or 40 years ago there was no question that New York was the world's premier city with London some way behind, now the two are at least level and London may even be slightly ahead. As for London suburbia there are still a few Tory suburbs about, Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Harrow etc
I wonder how many Americans would agree that London is the equal of New York.
Or people from other countries.
I suspect there's an element of Londoners bigging up their city.
These are all very nebulous, of course, but they do reveal a trend
Which brings me back to my original point.
If London is so much better than it was why is it so much worse for the Conservatives.
Isn't it now a city of extremes - great if you're really rich and great if you're an immigrant from some shithole.
But for the average person with the average family who wants an average job and an average life with an average house its almost unliveable.
Its egg-timer shaped rather than egg shaped.
Its difficult now to imagine all those sitcoms of ordinary families which were once set in London now existing.
New York City is hardly great for Republicans either is it, most people in either city rent with only the richest able to buy and both cities are socially liberal and filled with immigrants. Middle income earners in London tend to move out to Kent or Essex once they want to buy a house and start a family
But 30 years ago when London was apparently at its trough it was good for the Conservatives. Not unconnected to middle income earners being able to afford to buy in London in those days.
Indeed but seats like Dartford and Basildon which used to lean to Labour are now leaning to the Tories because those very same voters have moved out of London suburbs to them, at the same time turning those London suburban seats more to Labour
The reason the tories are doing worse in London are threefold 1) higher number of ethnic minorities, 2) the labour councils are much more moderate now, and the local MP's like steven pound have built up a strong local following who are also moderate 3) number of renters increased, and the rise of owner occupation in London has reversed since Thatcher there is no prospect of people EVER owning hteir own homes in London
Comments
(Generic Date exclusion clauses still exist in insurance policies)
The dynamism of London is hard to define, but seems to mean that people raising young children are verboten. Only those spending money on fripperies like overpriced carbohydrates and Secret Cinema are permitted.
The Daily Mail is having kittens because: Muslims. I have no magic wand to wave to solve 21st century Salafism, despite my God-like PB-(ex)Tory powers.
Conservative donor withdraws support over David Cameron's "irresponsible" EU campaign.
https://t.co/WRJ8wBeYQa https://t.co/WTrtbZTIdP
The vast majority of Leave voters want to control immigration and to hell with all the economic details which that would entail. One opinion poll showing less than half of those polled wanted what you think is best for the country is hardly a slam dunk, is it?
I don't even have to be insulting here, Richard - that is transparent rubbish. Even you must realise that. I also think that you must be edging towards Remain, as it dawns on you that if we get what the official campaign wants, if we get what the majority of Leave voters want, it will bring down the house around us.
In a forced choice between being in the EU and the Norway option, people chose the EU. In a forced choice between the Norway option and out on our ear, people chose the Norway option. In both cases people prefer more Europe.
It's only by making the choice between being in the EU and controlling immigration that you can contrive a majority for Leave.
BREAKING: more leaked docs reveals the European Commission plotted to “slipstream” visa liberalisation for Kosovo: https://t.co/PRw9EghXs1
Brexit vote is about the supremacy of Parliament and nothing else: Why I am voting to leave the EU
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/
So AEP is for Leave, I reckon that'll push Robert towards Remain
Any details ?
Cannot be beaten.
(you seem a touch insecure this evening, are you one of the PB Leavers heading back to Remain, by any chance?)
RACIST REMAINERS!
Many PB Leavers are arguing for a scenario that simply is not on offer. EEA/EFTA, controlled immigration, single market, owls for all.
I think that as they realise that they must choose between the best option possible, rather than the best possible option, they will (albeit reluctantly) switch to Remain. They are the living example of voters on the way to the polling booth, or some weeks before, realising that when it comes down to it, the risk of Leaving simply isn't worth it.
And on that bombsell...goodnight...
Remember I have already described the Leave and Remain campaign's as grades of dogsh!t this evening. I am not going to defend VLTC for a minute. I honestly believe that if they had chosen the EEA option from the start they would be miles ahead right now. It completely destroys the Remain argument on the economy and the polling shows that clearly the majority of the public are in favour of it if we do leave.
And if you bother to read the actual poll detail it was more than 2:1 in favour of the Norway option if we choose to leave by ALL respondents - both Remain and Leave. Over 75% of Remain supporters prefer the Norway option in the event of Leave winning.
Facts. Something you are clearly unfamiliar with.
Non-EU countries are predominantly non-white
RACIST REMAINERS!
Being free to decide whether to have one at all, even.
Goodnight.
Again.
Topping for some strange reason seems to think that if Leave win then the majority of the British public will want complete separation - as if those who voted Remain are no longer allowed to have a say in the matter. I mean I know we have seen Tyson complaining about democracy on here recently and how he would prefer it if people they disagreed with were not allowed to vote but I didn't think Topping was quite that far gone. He is suggesting that the people he DOES agree with would have no further input into the future of the country.
A very strange argument.
We are in the realm of post truth politics where even known lies are continued with because they work. It is not just a UK phenomenon and not likely to end well.
Jones then started saying that was homophobia
Thank god for the edit function.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3SpXXYTHY
We have Claire Moody (Lab MEP) for remain. Big on hand waving, not addressing the three main problems brought up: fishing, strain on public services and impact of immigration on our current population.
But they assume that there's some kind of nascent Islamophobic backlash so they try and keep it hush-hush...and now it's become Daily Mail clickbait. Morons abound.
Are we really supposed to take anything in the Mail or Express seriously anyway?
"The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."
Ugh. I just quoted a Nazi.
I'm off for a shower.
(Parenthetically, I must also re-remind you that controlled immigration is not the same as immigration limits, and that that difference is important...)
And we will not be strong arming our way in. As I never tire of pointing out, we are already an independent signatory to the EEA agreement. As long as we join EFTA straight from the EU and so are not in breach of our treaty commitments there is sweet FA Schauble or the rest of the EU can do about it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/millions-of-women-are-waiting-to-meet-you-by-sean-thomas-480121.html
Salafists have very specific reasons as to why they dislike gay folk. To them it's not irrational at all.
Personally, i am stuck in an awful position of cheering Remain on for work and personally supporting Brexit though i will gladly take the hit.
Returning to your views on how much more impressive London is now than in your student days.
The old, declining London had numerous Conservative voting areas in middle suburbia which it doesn't do now - the Ealings, the Lewishams, the Ilfords, Hornsey, Streatham etc.
Are your views on how London has improved too much influenced by central London ?
I'd certainly agree that Kings Cross is much improved these days over what it was in the 1980s and 1990s but you can probably say the same about every mainline railway station and its environs in the country.
30 or 40 years ago there was no question that New York was the world's premier city with London some way behind, now the two are at least level and London may even be slightly ahead. As for London suburbia there are still a few Tory suburbs about, Havering, Bromley, Bexley, Harrow etc
I wonder how many Americans would agree that London is the equal of New York.
Or people from other countries.
I suspect there's an element of Londoners bigging up their city.
Tourists consistently prefer London.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3108839/London-named-world-s-popular-travel-destination-New-York-falls-five.html
London is seen as the world's most powerful city
http://www.cityam.com/226511/londons-just-been-named-the-worlds-most-powerful-city-for-the-fourth-time-in-a-row-thanks-to-its-strong-economy
London is the world's most connected city
http://www.webintravel.com/rome2rio-global-connectivity-ranking/
London most influential city
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/11040489/London-the-most-influential-city-in-the-world-according-to-Forbes.html
These are all very nebulous, of course, but they do reveal a trend
Which brings me back to my original point.
If London is so much better than it was why is it so much worse for the Conservatives.
Isn't it now a city of extremes - great if you're really rich and great if you're an immigrant from some shithole.
But for the average person with the average family who wants an average job and an average life with an average house its almost unliveable.
Its egg-timer shaped rather than egg shaped.
Its difficult now to imagine all those sitcoms of ordinary families which were once set in London now existing.
New York City is hardly great for Republicans either is it, most people in either city rent with only the richest able to buy and both cities are socially liberal and filled with immigrants. Middle income earners in London tend to move out to Kent or Essex once they want to buy a house and start a family
But 30 years ago when London was apparently at its trough it was good for the Conservatives. Not unconnected to middle income earners being able to afford to buy in London in those days.
Indeed but seats like Dartford and Basildon which used to lean to Labour are now leaning to the Tories because those very same voters have moved out of London suburbs to them, at the same time turning those London suburban seats more to Labour
The reason the tories are doing worse in London are threefold 1) higher number of ethnic minorities,
2) the labour councils are much more moderate now, and the local MP's like steven pound have built up a strong local following who are also moderate
3) number of renters increased, and the rise of owner occupation in London has reversed since Thatcher there is no prospect of people EVER owning hteir own homes in London
Brexit would trigger second Scottish referendum within three years, Alex Salmond warns
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/12/brexit-would-trigger-second-scottish-referendum-within-three-yea/
Not just the extremists. You won't find more than a handful prepared to support gay rights. It's condemned in the Qur'an and hadith and they hate it.