I wonder how the great Britain little England line will play in Scotland where we recently establish that 45 percent of the population don't want to be Great British.
They would rather Great Britain than Little England. GB goes down better in Scotland, NI and London and Wales, Little England in provincial England, it is the former Cameron is now targeting to edge over the line, he has pretty much given up on rural, coastal and market town England who will vote Leave
As an aside, this is, of course, catastrophic for Cameron's future as prime minister, and as Tory leader. The Tory party IS Little England - the little battalions in the shires and burbs.
Cameron has clearly accepted his career is nearly over.
So Cameron is going to scrape over the line if Remain win having lost Tory England, which is why I would agree that he will not be going on too long as Tory leader after this referendum and Osborne is unlikely to succeed him either
As I said in the previous thread I find it strange that Cameron and Osborne have decide that SLab's playbook from the IndyRef was the one to follow.
Yes, there's definitely huge millage in making the jingoistic case for Remain - Good old Britain in the thick of it, saving those Europeans from themselves again. Let's have a bit of romance and soaring passion. (Contrast with stale old Leave, the height of whose ambition is turning us into the world's largest ferry port.)
Nah. We want to be pirates and corsairs on the open seas. What is more romantic than that!!!
:-)
Britain was at her best when she ruled the waves.
We can all agree on that.
And waved the rules....
“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”
Except that we do not have to choose, we can have both Europe and the open seas. Indded both Leave and Remain agree on that (though disagree that the other side will allow it!)
Unfortunately we cannot. Membership of the EU restricts our access to the open seas in so far as it prevents us from making our own trade deals. Of course it also restricts our access to our own fishing grounds as well so in that case it is literally restricting our access to the open seas.
Exactly what I said. Each side claims that the other cannot provide both, but they can. You put the case as a Leaver. Some Remainers would say the exact opposite and that only Remain means free access to both European and overseas markets with Leave abandoning the Single Market access that Mrs T passed into law.
I love ITV's totally representative 'floating voters'. 60% white, 40% black (judging by accent not UK born), no Asians and no pensioners. They come down on Mr Cameron's side. What a surprise!
any canvassing news today? Let me guess leave 20% ahead in London
No. I should have some tomorrow.
I find the figures hard to believe too, but I'm sure in places like Islington it's 80-20 for Remain.
I agree with SeanT. Irrespective of the referendum result, Cameron now looks like Blair after Iraq.
The tricks don't work anymore. There are no more aces in his cards.
In the case of Blair, it took 4 years for the stupid fuck to realise it, before resigning in 2007. And in the process, he irreversibly contaminated the Labour brand.
The good thing for the Tories is that Cameron has somewhat more self-awareness than Blair and will go quickly.
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
Yes, there's definitely huge millage in making the jingoistic case for Remain - Good old Britain in the thick of it, saving those Europeans from themselves again. Let's have a bit of romance and soaring passion. (Contrast with stale old Leave, the height of whose ambition is turning us into the world's largest ferry port.)
Nah. We want to be pirates and corsairs on the open seas. What is more romantic than that!!!
:-)
Britain was at her best when she ruled the waves.
We can all agree on that.
And waved the rules....
“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”
Except that we do not have to choose, we can have both Europe and the open seas. Indded both Leave and Remain agree on that (though disagree that the other side will allow it!)
Unfortunately we cannot. Membership of the EU restricts our access to the open seas in so far as it prevents us from making our own trade deals. Of course it also restricts our access to our own fishing grounds as well so in that case it is literally restricting our access to the open seas.
Exactly what I said. Each side claims that the other cannot provide both, but they can. You put the case as a Leaver. Some Remainers would say the exact opposite and that only Remain means free access to both European and overseas markets with Leave abandoning the Single Market access that Mrs T passed into law.
Um no. I was talking in purely factual terms. Membership of the EU does prevent us securing a trade deal with many other important countries. That is a basic fact, not an opinion. If we tried to secure our own trade deal we would be in breach of the EU treaties.
'You're scaremongering against non-whites!' Farage blasted for 'demonising migrants' as he's grilled by a live studio audience in heated Brexit debate before the PM brands him a 'Little Englander'
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
I've been meaning to ask you, you predict a Remain win by 12-15% but say Leave winning in Wales is value @ 2/1.
Perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind that.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
Or the pelvic thrust?
Lord Flashheart on Blackadder, Freeview 19 (Yesterday Channel)
I wonder how the great Britain little England line will play in Scotland where we recently establish that 45 percent of the population don't want to be Great British.
They would rather Great Britain than Little England. GB goes down better in Scotland, NI and London and Wales, Little England in provincial England, it is the former Cameron is now targeting to edge over the line, he has pretty much given up on rural, coastal and market town England who will vote Leave
As an aside, this is, of course, catastrophic for Cameron's future as prime minister, and as Tory leader. The Tory party IS Little England - the little battalions in the shires and burbs.
Cameron has clearly accepted his career is nearly over.
So Cameron is going to scrape over the line if Remain win having lost Tory England, which is why I would agree that he will not be going on too long as Tory leader after this referendum and Osborne is unlikely to succeed him either
As I said in the previous thread I find it strange that Cameron and Osborne have decide that SLab's playbook from the IndyRef was the one to follow.
Indeed, there is a real risk UKIP will eat up Tory Leavers as the SNP eat up Labour Yes voters
I watched the debate this evening and I did not find it too illuminating. Nigel Farage was his usual grating self, and I don't think David Cameron was at his strongest. I was hoping for a little more back and forth between them. I felt it was a small win for David as he just comes across as more pleasant than Nigel. The Brexit people should have used Michael Gove or that Asian lady. They both come over very well.
I look forward to the next debate. I hope it will be more interesting!
It is not a case of who the Brexit people should have used. They had no choice in the matter. ITV invited Farage without any reference to the official Leave campaign.
Not complaining about it, ITV are entitled to invite who they like. Just correcting your misconception.
How is the referendum count going to be reported, is it going to be by council area or constituency or what?
According to the EC, there are going to be 382 individual declarations. From what I can tell, these are the local government areas in England and Wales (not sure about Scotland and NI).
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
Oh Gove for sure.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
Do you guys know how many of my Facebook friends have even mentioned the debate?
None. Zero. Nada.
In other words, this debate will have no impact whatsoever on the result.
Four of my Facebook friends regularly post pro-Remain posts. The rest post mostly about their kids,cats or holidays like normal folk do.
I was thinking about this today. Inasmuch as the referendum is mentioned by my facebook friends, I have about nine friends who regularly post tediously snappy anti-LEAVE arguments (that it's pointless to refute given the TLDR nature of the medium). Most of these are the same people who posted similarly trite anti-Tory posts at the last election. Basically, REMAIN is the default option for the university-educated virtue signaller. But at least one of these (interestingly atypical - middle class but not university educated; of traveller background but more furious than anyone I have ever known in his denunciation of travellers and gypsies) was always ardently pro-Tory, and another (also non-university educated) I would say at least pretty sceptical of the cut-and-paste anti-Tory meme at the election. Meanwhile, the only voice on my facebook feed for LEAVE has been from a postgrad-educated teacher from a distinctly D2/E background who swung from Tory in 2010 to Green in 2015 and has taken the NUT line in most things political since the early half of the decade.
But as with you, most post of happier things like children and cricket.
I agree with SeanT. Irrespective of the referendum result, Cameron now looks like Blair after Iraq.
The tricks don't work anymore. There are no more aces in his cards.
In the case of Blair, it took 4 years for the stupid fuck to realise it, before resigning in 2007. And in the process, he irreversibly contaminated the Labour brand.
The good thing for the Tories is that Cameron has somewhat more self-awareness than Blair and will go quickly.
It is remarkable that the man who won an unprecedented victory for the Tories just a year ago is now staring at the abrupt end of his career, and probably a resignation that carries an air of faint disgrace - or much worse (if he loses the vote).
Kismet, huh.
Well, the victory was paid for by the referendum, which was always going to be Cameron versus the Conservative majority. No referendum = no majority.
It is remarkable that the man who won an unprecedented victory for the Tories just a year ago is now staring at the abrupt end of his career, and probably a resignation that carries an air of faint disgrace - or much worse (if he loses the vote)
History repeats itself.
The same bastards who did it last time want to repeat their triumph and usher in the next Blair
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
Oh Gove for sure.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
I've been meaning to ask you, you predict a Remain win by 12-15% but say Leave winning in Wales is value @ 2/1.
Perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind that.
If the polls have it neck and neck in Wales, and one side is 2/1, then it is surely value.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
Oh Gove for sure.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
@ProfBrianCox: Did Farage really just say that if we leave the EU we'll have a smaller pharma industry and that will be good for alternative medicine ?
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" in public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
Just watched the ITV debate. Cameron really has a habit of pulling it out of the bag when he needs to and that was a good confident assured performance. If more voters got to see this than the 2.5-3m who probably tuned in, Remain would win by miles.
He made strong points. I have been "50/50 leaning Remain" since the outset but reckon I'm 70/30 in favour of Remain now.
Also, instant reaction in my WhatsApp group of friends (most between 25 and 35) - Boring.
The "little England" seems to have gone down like a lead balloon as well. I didn't see it live, but the consensus was that it was completely patronising.
The consensus is that Farage is a bit of a xenophobe. The consensus is that Cameron is a bit of a liar.
I don't think either perception was significantly challenged today, but nor was it badly reinforced.
For me the only line that might cut through is Little England. It is apparent it's been focus-grouped, as Osborne is replaying it, but to me it jars, badly, and will surely be unpopular with key demogs that Cameron needs.
It sounds like its been focused grouped at a Notting Hill dinner party by people who think they're more sophisticated than they are.
There's going to be a lot of England flags being flown in the next couple of weeks.
Yes, I agree, saying LITTLE ENGLAND just as we're all about to support England?!
Bizarre. And risky. Another sign REMAIN are worried they are losing. They wouldn't take this punt if they were well ahead.
Nah, win or lose that's what they believe. You think if OUT wins Meeks et al are going to applaud us for playing the game and winning fair and square? They resent us for questioning them.
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" I'm public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
I'm fairly certain Thatcher used the term little Englander in the 1975 referendum to describe the No side.
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
I think the only developed countries that do not have similar or higher rates of immigration than us are Japan and South Korea.
It is remarkable that the man who won an unprecedented victory for the Tories just a year ago is now staring at the abrupt end of his career, and probably a resignation that carries an air of faint disgrace - or much worse (if he loses the vote)
History repeats itself.
The same bastards who did it last time want to repeat their triumph and usher in the next Blair
Rewriting history again Scott. Major did it all to himself. He did to his own legacy what he was doing to Edwina Curry.
It is remarkable that the man who won an unprecedented victory for the Tories just a year ago is now staring at the abrupt end of his career, and probably a resignation that carries an air of faint disgrace - or much worse (if he loses the vote)
History repeats itself.
The same bastards who did it last time want to repeat their triumph and usher in the next Blair
Come on Scott,who would you prefer to be the next tory leader ? Just remember you have to defend him/her on here.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
I've been meaning to ask you, you predict a Remain win by 12-15% but say Leave winning in Wales is value @ 2/1.
Perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind that.
If the polls have it neck and neck in Wales, and one side is 2/1, then it is surely value.
But you predict a 12-15% win for Remain, how do you compute that 2/1 Leave in Wales is value?
@ProfBrianCox: Did Farage really just say that if we leave the EU we'll have a smaller pharma industry and that will be good for alternative medicine ?
Leave need to be careful here. Farage's gaffe (the first genuine one of the debates?) could derail their carefully construction narrative of being the saviours of the NHS. Never mind how it might look taking advice on national destiny from a potion quack.
'You're scaremongering against non-whites!' Farage blasted for 'demonising migrants' as he's grilled by a live studio audience in heated Brexit debate before the PM brands him a 'Little Englander'
Discuss.
The headlines i've seen from the daily mail are very pro remain.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
I've been meaning to ask you, you predict a Remain win by 12-15% but say Leave winning in Wales is value @ 2/1.
Perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind that.
If the polls have it neck and neck in Wales, and one side is 2/1, then it is surely value.
But you predict a 12-15% win for Remain, how do you compute that 2/1 Leave in Wales is value?
I'm interested in your computations.
One is based on my instincts and some of the polling
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
Not off the top of my head but I can tell you about high wages being an advantage rather than a disadvantage if you wish.
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
I hate to point it out, but it's Gove.
* Nicholas Soames is Stephen Fry/Wellington. * Boris Johnson is Robbie Coltrane/Samuel Johnson * Teresa May is Helen Atkinson-Wood/Mrs Miggins * Katie Hopkins is Miranda Richardson/The Shadow * Osborne is Baldrick/Baldrick
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" I'm public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
I'm fairly certain Thatcher used the term little Englander in the 1975 referendum to describe the No side.
Times have changed since then, the nation is more Eurosceptic and we are the mainstream within the party. I'll say it over and over, the party has been split by loyalty to the leadership not by the EU, if Dave had declared for leave he would have carried 280 MPs, 80-90% of members and at least 75% of Tory voters. You might not want to hear it, but we are the party of Middle England, not the party of North Islington.
For me the only line that might cut through is Little England. It is apparent it's been focus-grouped, as Osborne is replaying it, but to me it jars, badly, and will surely be unpopular with key demogs that Cameron needs.
If it's backed up by Sturgeon saying, "Vote Leave and we're off, mate," it might get people's attention.
Will it though? Has there been any recent polling in England/Wales about what we think of the UK? I suspect there is an indifferent acceptance that the Scots aren't around for much longer. And certainly no willingness to bend over backwards to keep them in the union. (I say this as someone half-Scottish who has holidayed regularly in Scotland and who likes both the country and the people. But, you know, they'll still be judt up the M6 - they're not about to sail off to the mid-Atlantic...)
In the context of leaving the EU I think it makes a psychological difference. It's one thing to be an island off the coast of Europe (and some other bits), but quite another to be half an island.
Yes, there's probably something in that. And the main argument for England staying in the UK (as far as I can see) is the defence/strategic/global power one, where we are at a much greater advantage with as part of a nation whose territorial waters extend far into the North Atlantic and which controls a great part of the Greenland/Iceland/UK gap. And in leaving the EU, we are to a much greater extent considering our wider position in the world. I would be fascinated to see some opinion polling on this sort of thing, if a question could be meaningfully phrased.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
Oh Gove for sure.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
I think the only developed countries that do not have similar or higher rates of immigration than us are Japan and South Korea.
@ProfBrianCox: Did Farage really just say that if we leave the EU we'll have a smaller pharma industry and that will be good for alternative medicine ?
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" I'm public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
I'm fairly certain Thatcher used the term little Englander in the 1975 referendum to describe the No side.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
Oh Gove for sure.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
TSE, of course
I'm Blackadder.
I have a real life Auntie Whiteadder*.
She slapped me across the face, and called me a wicked child** whilst doing so
*Auntie in the sense where anyone one of your Mum and Dad's friends are automatically your auntie and uncle
**Well she said called me a zalum koota, which means cruel dog.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
I've been meaning to ask you, you predict a Remain win by 12-15% but say Leave winning in Wales is value @ 2/1.
Perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind that.
If the polls have it neck and neck in Wales, and one side is 2/1, then it is surely value.
But you predict a 12-15% win for Remain, how do you compute that 2/1 Leave in Wales is value?
I'm interested in your computations.
One is based on my instincts and some of the polling
The other based on the polling.
Oh right, this is a betting site, you got upset the other day when I said that some on here have zero knowledge of betting and odds. You make my point well.
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" in public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
Membership of the EU does prevent us securing a trade deal with many other important countries. That is a basic fact, not an opinion.
Are there any of these countries that we don't currently trade with?
This is the flip-side of the Brexit argument.
Some we trade a lot less with than we would, Brazil and Argentina spring to mind. Also our trade is stymied with our large trading partners because of a lack of a trade deal.
Australia seems to knock them out in around 18 to 24 months. We are a large market.
Farage did fine. Chill. He didn't "put a bomb" under the campaign
My STRONG suspicion is that UKIP never expected to have a whisker of a chance of winning this vote, their intention was to do well enough, and to fuck with the Tory psyche, such that they would gain in strength like the SNP post Sindyref. Thus at first UKIP were very stroppy and nihilistic and uncooperative with other LEAVERS.
Yes, I have a UKIP booklet from an event earlier this year which discussed plebiscites and how they were a rubber stamping exercise against true referendums. Considering the way Cameron has behaved in getting international organisations to stick their twoppennyworth in (repeated by Cameron again this evening), you can see Nigel had a point.
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" in public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
They don't look "macho" at all. They look as though they're demonstrating to everyone that they haven't shit themselves. Osborne looks insane, and Cameron looks like an Etonian (not an Old one) imitating a school cleaner.
I am waiting for Cameron to do 'the roar!!!'
So if Cameron is Prince George, who is his Blackadder?
Oh Gove for sure.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
TSE, of course
I'm Blackadder.
I have a real life Auntie Whiteadder*.
She slapped me across the face, and called me a wicked child** whilst doing so
*Auntie in the sense where anyone one of your Mum and Dad's friends are automatically your auntie and uncle
**Well she said called me a zalum koota, which means cruel dog.
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" I'm public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
I'm fairly certain Thatcher used the term little Englander in the 1975 referendum to describe the No side.
Different times. Poles,Romanians and Bulgarians were stuck behind the iron curtain those days.
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
Even with format of choice, Cameron couldn't win on a Guardian poll. https://t.co/mK6LEO3COS
If that's the opinion of the electorate as a whole, then I'd expect at least a small movement towards LEAVE to appear as the polls in 2-3 days time start to reflect this.
Thinking about it, I don't think Blair would have ever used the phrase "little Englander" I'm public even if he thought it or used it in private. Insulting middle England is not going to go down well, Th party will now need a change of leadership to recover. Until now I was still in the Dave should stick around camp, but if he begins to alienate solid Tory heartlands on order to win the EU vote then he needs to be gotten rid of.
I'm fairly certain Thatcher used the term little Englander in the 1975 referendum to describe the No side.
Different times. Poles,Romanians and Bulgarians were stuck behind the iron curtain those days.
IT was Thatcher who wanted the East Europeans to join the EU.
Even with format of choice, Cameron couldn't win on a Guardian poll. https://t.co/mK6LEO3COS
If that's the opinion of the electorate as a whole, then I'd expect at least a small movement towards LEAVE to appear as the polls in 2-3 days time start to reflect this.
That is an unscientific poll, means little other than Brexiteers are more likely to vote in online polls
Does that answer the question though? A declaration will be made for each of the 12 regions but surely the results from the 382 local counts will emerge and be totted up by broadcasters won't they? If not, I'll probably go to bed at 10 and set the alarm for 3.30am. How would the broadcasters fill the time?
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
A crap broadcaster which pays him over £500,000 a year
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
I think the only developed countries that do not have similar or higher rates of immigration than us are Japan and South Korea.
What a load of bollocks. The UK has a relatively high net migration rate - higher than America, France, Germany.
More importantly, Britain - England even more so - is a much more crowded country than most. If you calculate migration per square mile, then we are probably at the very top of the list, in terms of big countries.
According to that table we have fewer migrants per thousand than the USA. France and Germany are lower - though as those figures are for 2015 I suspect that the German figures are not accurate. There was a fairly noticeable 2015 migration to Germany as I recall.
A number of countries were near zero, but Japan and South Korea were the only big developed economies amongst them.
Why did GKP's share price tank? I thought they could extract oil despite the troubles in the region. I remember when it was around £1 now it is £0.04...
Splendid question! The share price peaked at 411p on the 17th February 2012, and you may wish to have a look for yourself in the following accounts when surprise surprise many of the share options were exercised just for starters:
Even with format of choice, Cameron couldn't win on a Guardian poll. https://t.co/mK6LEO3COS
If that's the opinion of the electorate as a whole, then I'd expect at least a small movement towards LEAVE to appear as the polls in 2-3 days time start to reflect this.
e headlines i've seen from the daily mail are very pro remain.
The Mail cannot abide Farage...
Is the Mail, against all the odds, about to change sides and come down on the side of REMAIN? Even allowing for the fact that newspapers undoubtedly have a greatly diminished influence on people's voting patterns, that really would be a potential game changer with its millions of predominantly Tory, middle England readers.
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
e headlines i've seen from the daily mail are very pro remain.
The Mail cannot abide Farage...
Is the Mail, against all the odds about to change sides and come down on the side of REMAIN? Even allowing for the fact that newspapers undoubtedly have a greatly diminished influence on people's voting patterns, that really would be a potential game changer with its millions of predominantly Tory, middle England readers.
Well, Dacre has got all his CAP subsidies to think about.
'You're scaremongering against non-whites!' Farage blasted for 'demonising migrants' as he's grilled by a live studio audience in heated Brexit debate before the PM brands him a 'Little Englander'
e headlines i've seen from the daily mail are very pro remain.
The Mail cannot abide Farage...
Is the Mail, against all the odds, about to change sides and come down on the side of REMAIN? Even allowing for the fact that newspapers undoubtedly have a greatly diminished influence on people's voting patterns, that really would be a potential game changer with its millions of predominantly Tory, middle England readers.
Does that answer the question though? A declaration will be made for each of the 12 regions but surely the results from the 382 local counts will emerge and be totted up by broadcasters won't they? If not, I'll probably go to bed at 10 and set the alarm for 3.30am. How would the broadcasters fill the time?
Even with format of choice, Cameron couldn't win on a Guardian poll. https://t.co/mK6LEO3COS
If that's the opinion of the electorate as a whole, then I'd expect at least a small movement towards LEAVE to appear as the polls in 2-3 days time start to reflect this.
That is an unscientific poll, means little other than Brexiteers are more likely to vote in online polls
Maybe, maybe not, but it was a shocking result for Cameron, even allowing for it being conducted for a left wing newspaper.
"'I have no GP, I can't get on the housing ladder and have three kids in one room': Cameron is taken to task over immigration on TV debate by '40-year-old Brit who's been working full-time since 16'"
"'I have no GP, I can't get on the housing ladder and have three kids in one room': Cameron is taken to task over immigration on TV debate by '40-year-old Brit who's been working full-time since 16'"
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
Maybe? We all know his wife died ffs.
You really are a despicable person.
No, someone asked why Peston looked bad... Roger answered pointing out the bleeding obvious.
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
I think the only developed countries that do not have similar or higher rates of immigration than us are Japan and South Korea.
What a load of bollocks. The UK has a relatively high net migration rate - higher than America, France, Germany.
More importantly, Britain - England even more so - is a much more crowded country than most. If you calculate migration per square mile, then we are probably at the very top of the list, in terms of big countries.
According to that table we have fewer migrants per thousand than the USA. France and Germany are lower - though as those figures are for 2015 I suspect that the German figures are not accurate. There was a fairly noticeable 2015 migration to Germany as I recall.
A number of countries were near zero, but Japan and South Korea were the only big developed economies amongst them.
Membership of the EU does prevent us securing a trade deal with many other important countries. That is a basic fact, not an opinion.
Are there any of these countries that we don't currently trade with?
This is the flip-side of the Brexit argument.
Some we trade a lot less with than we would, Brazil and Argentina spring to mind.
PM Corbyn will have a deal sorted with Argentina in no time, post-Brexit.
There will not be a PM Corbyn.
There's a non-zero chance.
In any case do you think anyone else will be able to get a quick deal without putting the Falklands on the table?
Well, we used to have them... Lots of UK Argentine trade. If they don't want to trade, we'll just trade with our other old friends in the region, Brazil, Chile and Uruguay.
Why did GKP's share price tank? I thought they could extract oil despite the troubles in the region. I remember when it was around £1 now it is £0.04...
Splendid question! The share price peaked at 411p on the 17th February 2012, and you may wish to have a look for yourself in the following accounts when surprise surprise many of the share options were exercised just for starters:
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
----- We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
I think the only developed countries that do not have similar or higher rates of immigration than us are Japan and South Korea.
What a load of bollocks. The UK has a relatively high net migration rate - higher than America, France, Germany.
More importantly, Britain - England even more so - is a much more crowded country than most. If you calculate migration per square mile, then we are probably at the very top of the list, in terms of big countries.
According to that table we have fewer migrants per thousand than the USA. France and Germany are lower - though as those figures are for 2015 I suspect that the German figures are not accurate. There was a fairly noticeable 2015 migration to Germany as I recall.
A number of countries were near zero, but Japan and South Korea were the only big developed economies amongst them.
With respect, the USA is massive !
Talking of which, polls in New Jersey close in a hour. Hillary is preparing to give her victory speech.
"'I have no GP, I can't get on the housing ladder and have three kids in one room': Cameron is taken to task over immigration on TV debate by '40-year-old Brit who's been working full-time since 16'"
"'I have no GP, I can't get on the housing ladder and have three kids in one room': Cameron is taken to task over immigration on TV debate by '40-year-old Brit who's been working full-time since 16'"
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
Maybe? We all know his wife died ffs.
You really are a despicable person.
No, someone asked why Peston looked bad... Roger answered pointing out the bleeding obvious.
e headlines i've seen from the daily mail are very pro remain.
The Mail cannot abide Farage...
Is the Mail, against all the odds about to change sides and come down on the side of REMAIN? Even allowing for the fact that newspapers undoubtedly have a greatly diminished influence on people's voting patterns, that really would be a potential game changer with its millions of predominantly Tory, middle England readers.
Well, Dacre has got all his CAP subsidies to think about.
Not to mention his strangely delayed Knighthood/Peerage. He's getting on a bit now and will be 68 in November. if he doesn't get his gong from Cameron, where will it come from and when?
Do you think the BSE spin doctors will now be trying to keep Cameron off the air/TV-waves for the next few weeks, and instead push the more trusted (source:YouGov) Corbyn forward for the big gigs?
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
Maybe? We all know his wife died ffs.
You really are a despicable person.
No, someone asked why Peston looked bad... Roger answered pointing out the bleeding obvious.
Is there a problem with that?
Nope, I remarked that the poor man looked terribly ill, have a read.
Roger's reply was, at best, crass. I was banned for calling him a fuckin idiot a couple of days ago, he's actually far worse than that, he's intelligent, which makes him malicious.
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
Maybe? We all know his wife died ffs.
You really are a despicable person.
No, someone asked why Peston looked bad... Roger answered pointing out the bleeding obvious.
Is there a problem with that?
Nope, I remarked that the poor man looked terribly ill, have a read.
Roger's reply was, at best, crass. I was banned for calling him a fuckin idiot a couple of days ago, he's actually far worse than that, he's intelligent, which makes him malicious.
I don't think so. I think you're picking a fight where none need exist.
Do you think the BSE spin doctors will now be trying to keep Cameron off the air/TV-waves for the next few weeks, and instead push the more trusted (source:YouGov) Corbyn forward for the big gigs?
Even with format of choice, Cameron couldn't win on a Guardian poll. https://t.co/mK6LEO3COS
If that's the opinion of the electorate as a whole, then I'd expect at least a small movement towards LEAVE to appear as the polls in 2-3 days time start to reflect this.
That is an unscientific poll, means little other than Brexiteers are more likely to vote in online polls
Maybe, maybe not, but it was a shocking result for Cameron, even allowing for it being conducted for a left wing newspaper.
I agree we should be wary of instant polls, but even so I would have expected the Guardian readership to be more pro-Remain than that of any other online newspaper. The fact that the online poll was on the Guardian site rather than (say) the Mail or Express makes the result worse not better for Cameron.
Given all the concerns in the Leave camp over the format of tonight's debate, and the potential for a bad Farage performance to halt their recent momentum, Leave dodged a bullet tonight.
Re tonight's programme, debating who won or lost is futile, we all made up our mind beforehand. But that wide eyed look that Cameron has when dealing with questions from the audience - he's done, gone, a shot fighter.
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
His wife died and he's working for a crap TV station. Maybe?
Maybe? We all know his wife died ffs.
You really are a despicable person.
No, someone asked why Peston looked bad... Roger answered pointing out the bleeding obvious.
Is there a problem with that?
Nope, I remarked that the poor man looked terribly ill, have a read.
Roger's reply was, at best, crass. I was banned for calling him a fuckin idiot a couple of days ago, he's actually far worse than that, he's intelligent, which makes him malicious.
I don't think so. I think you're picking a fight where none need exist.
I'll pick a fight with champagne socialists any day. Roger saw who'd posted about Peston and waded in without thinking.
He;s an ad man, full of bullshit, he knows he fucked up.
Comments
Sorry...
I find the figures hard to believe too, but I'm sure in places like Islington it's 80-20 for Remain.
The tricks don't work anymore. There are no more aces in his cards.
In the case of Blair, it took 4 years for the stupid fuck to realise it, before resigning in 2007. And in the process, he irreversibly contaminated the Labour brand.
The good thing for the Tories is that Cameron has somewhat more self-awareness than Blair and will go quickly.
Cameron has a massive, massive problem with immigration. Having previously gone heavy on how bad immigration is, he can't now tell the truth, which is that an open market in a globalised world means immigration and that fact isn't going to change with Brexit. Instead he had to fall back on the line that immigration is being controlled now. Nobody believes it.
-----
We can control immigration, other countries do.
Thanks. Off topic question. Do you, or anyone else, know which countries similar to the UK see relatively less immigration than the UK? I am talking about actual numbers, not whether the countries claim to control immigration
'You're scaremongering against non-whites!' Farage blasted for 'demonising migrants' as he's grilled by a live studio audience in heated Brexit debate before the PM brands him a 'Little Englander'
Discuss.
Perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind that.
Times like this you realize how good the BBC's iplayer is.
Not complaining about it, ITV are entitled to invite who they like. Just correcting your misconception.
This is the flip-side of the Brexit argument.
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/206113/Media-briefing-EU-Referendum-count-processes-and-results.pdf
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0006/206088/EURef_timingvenue_KK.xlsx
Basically similar to the AV referendum.
The more important question is who is Baldrick. :-)
Meanwhile, the only voice on my facebook feed for LEAVE has been from a postgrad-educated teacher from a distinctly D2/E background who swung from Tory in 2010 to Green in 2015 and has taken the NUT line in most things political since the early half of the decade.
But as with you, most post of happier things like children and cricket.
The same bastards who did it last time want to repeat their triumph and usher in the next Blair
@ProfBrianCox: Did Farage really just say that if we leave the EU we'll have a smaller pharma industry and that will be good for alternative medicine ?
He made strong points. I have been "50/50 leaning Remain" since the outset but reckon I'm 70/30 in favour of Remain now.
I'm interested in your computations.
Even with format of choice, Cameron couldn't win on a Guardian poll. https://t.co/mK6LEO3COS
The other based on the polling.
* Nicholas Soames is Stephen Fry/Wellington.
* Boris Johnson is Robbie Coltrane/Samuel Johnson
* Teresa May is Helen Atkinson-Wood/Mrs Miggins
* Katie Hopkins is Miranda Richardson/The Shadow
* Osborne is Baldrick/Baldrick
And the main argument for England staying in the UK (as far as I can see) is the defence/strategic/global power one, where we are at a much greater advantage with as part of a nation whose territorial waters extend far into the North Atlantic and which controls a great part of the Greenland/Iceland/UK gap. And in leaving the EU, we are to a much greater extent considering our wider position in the world.
I would be fascinated to see some opinion polling on this sort of thing, if a question could be meaningfully phrased.
Nor did he get the chance to mention how the Clinical Trials directive reduced UK clinical trials from 12% to 1% of world total.
http://www.talkcarswell.com/home/how-eu-membership-killed-off-uk-clinical-trials/2837
btw did you see Peston? The poor man looks terribly ill.
The Mail cannot abide Farage...
I have a real life Auntie Whiteadder*.
She slapped me across the face, and called me a wicked child** whilst doing so
*Auntie in the sense where anyone one of your Mum and Dad's friends are automatically your auntie and uncle
**Well she said called me a zalum koota, which means cruel dog.
https://www.google.it/search?q=emily+thornberry+st+george+flag+tweet&client=safari&hl=en-it&biw=768&bih=937&prmd=insv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizteGu-JbNAhXCC8AKHeauAJ4Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=l2344GQES7ZBPM:
If Cameron plays the little England card, he might not make it to the end of the week as conservative leader, let alone June 24.
Australia seems to knock them out in around 18 to 24 months. We are a large market.
Edit: read it yourself, Sean.
http://www.ukipmeps.org/uploads/file/ReferendumStichUp.pdf
"Where haven't I been? Woof!"
Poles,Romanians and Bulgarians were stuck behind the iron curtain those days.
A number of countries were near zero, but Japan and South Korea were the only big developed economies amongst them.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05288855/filing-history
and private investors in M&G have lost out on this company:
http://www.shareprophets.com/views/20029/gulf-keystone-morons-what-was-that-you-were-saying-about-institutional-backing-mg-dumps-its-shares
Even allowing for the fact that newspapers undoubtedly have a greatly diminished influence on people's voting patterns, that really would be a potential game changer with its millions of predominantly Tory, middle England readers.
You really are a despicable person.
Aren't most EU migrants White?
In any case do you think anyone else will be able to get a quick deal without putting the Falklands on the table?
"'I have no GP, I can't get on the housing ladder and have three kids in one room': Cameron is taken to task over immigration on TV debate by '40-year-old Brit who's been working full-time since 16'"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3630039/PM-Farage-battle-Brexit-primetime-referendum-special-Cameron-won-t-debate-EU-head-head.html
Is there a problem with that?
The Falklands are not on the table.
(I'm only half-joking.)
Roger's reply was, at best, crass. I was banned for calling him a fuckin idiot a couple of days ago, he's actually far worse than that, he's intelligent, which makes him malicious.
I'm not kidding.
Given all the concerns in the Leave camp over the format of tonight's debate, and the potential for a bad Farage performance to halt their recent momentum, Leave dodged a bullet tonight.
He;s an ad man, full of bullshit, he knows he fucked up.