It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thin....?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I g......
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
He had no intention of winning meaningful reform, and you know it. He didn't even try. He just thought Fuck it, I can win a referendum anyway, so I'll come back with any old crap and the stupid voters will buy it.
The worst of it is, he is probably right. In the short term. In the long term he is wrecking the Tory party.
How you can support this grotesque charade, even canvass for it, utterly bewilders me. You're like the butler in Remains of the Day who loyally supports his Hitler-appeasing Master, despite all evidence that the man is not worth a moral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all? Give me your take on it.
He went in asking for a few minor things and walked out with a vat exemption on tampax, a £50m saving on welfare and gave up our veto on Eurozone integration.....
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
Was I incorrect? Did he get an increase in our rebate? Answer No.
It's all getting a bit moody in here. It must be very frustrating for PB Tory-Leavers to be on the receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics for once, but lashing out at TSE does nothing. In fact you only elevate him as a site celebrity.
They were on the right side of every big vote, in England at least, since Boris in 2008. Now they have begun to lose and the tone is becoming nastier. First Mayor S Khan, and now LEAVE looks like it's in trouble. That could change, of course.
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
Its a lot better than your level of understanding.
I only hope to God this thread is far from representative of the country at large.
I don't really care whether we vote in or out. That issue is singularly unimportant to me.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
I only hope to God this thread is far from representative of the country at large.
I don't really care whether we vote in or out. That issue is singularly unimportant to me.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
It's all getting a bit moody in here. It must be very frustrating for PB Tory-Leavers to be on the receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics for once, but lashing out at TSE does nothing. In fact you only elevate him as a site celebrity.
Dont be daft he's a pariah in right wing circles.
The dogs whose crap he trod in will ask for it back. Women will return his semen. Hasso von Manteuffel will laugh as he surrenders bastogne.
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
Its a lot better than your level of understanding.
Are we going to get your 1991 VAT story again?
You are clearly confused again. But then you always were one of the dumber posters on here so no surprise there.
It's all getting a bit moody in here. It must be very frustrating for PB Tory-Leavers to be on the receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics for once, but lashing out at TSE does nothing. In fact you only elevate him as a site celebrity.
They were on the right side of every big vote, in England at least, since Boris in 2008. Now they have begun to lose and the tone is becoming nastier. First Mayor S Khan, and now LEAVE looks like it's in trouble. That could change, of course.
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
The EC.
I think you've just exposed the trend and yourself.
You'll be campaigning for the single currency and ever closer union when the time comes - after a certain amount of 'undecideness' and then being 'persuaded' by some establishment line.
Like this time.
When you were 'persuaded' to vote Remain by George Osborne's economic arguments and 'persuaded' to campaign by the threat of Liam Fox.
Really ? Liam Fox ??? Is that the best justification you can come up with ?
You were always going to vote Remain and you were always going to campaign for Remain.
You know it, I know it, we all know it.
I don't criticize you for supporting Remain or campaigning for it but this whole pantomime that you've been 'persuaded' is pretty tawdry.
That's the biggest load of bollocks you've ever posted on PB, and remember you're the idiot a while back accused me of condoning child abuse for political advantage.
You eventually apologised for being wrong on that, and you'll eventually apologise on this.
Looks like I got a bit close to the truth.
And as to Rotherham I accused you of not caring (for which I did apologise) and you accused me of being the sickest man on PB for asking inconvenient questions.
Who was proved right there.
21 months after the Jay report and how many plods, social workers, childrens home managers, councillors and council officials have been arrested ?
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
It's all getting a bit moody in here. It must be very frustrating for PB Tory-Leavers to be on the receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics for once, but lashing out at TSE does nothing. In fact you only elevate him as a site celebrity.
That said, being on the "receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics", and being the victim of his "ruthlessness" his "brilliance" and his "determination to win" and his "superbly professional campaign" has resulted in... um..... a polling dead heat. YouGov and ICM have it at exactly 50:50
lol.
If the LEAVE campaign was any good they'd be 20 points ahead. They have the best product. People just want a reason to buy it.
Well, look at the General Election. What % of the result do you think was down to enthusiasm for the Conservative Manifesto?
And what % was fear of EdSNP?
He got the win, but he limped over the line and it was because his actual product is dubious at best.
He will limp over the line in the referendum as well.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
Its a lot better than your level of understanding.
Are we going to get your 1991 VAT story again?
You are clearly confused again. But then you always were one of the dumber posters on here so no surprise there.
As I remember it you were furious that a Tory government raised VAT and then in theory couldn't lower it. When no UK govt then or since had wanted to lower it.
That was your sole example of the oppressive yoke of the EU. 25 years ago.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
Ladbrokes Politics @LadPolitics 8s8 seconds ago Interesting that @nicholaswatt seems to think that turnout is forecast as low in the referendum. Betting markets now at 63.5% and rising
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
Its a lot better than your level of understanding.
Are we going to get your 1991 VAT story again?
You are clearly confused again. But then you always were one of the dumber posters on here so no surprise there.
As I remember it you were furious that a Tory government raised VAT and then in theory couldn't lower it. When no UK govt then or since had wanted to lower it.
That was your sole example of the oppressive yoke of the EU. 25 years ago.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
LOL in office but not in power
God knows what Scott will do when his idol Fake Dave steps down,would be fun if scotty was rooting for Osborne in the leadership contest ;-)
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
LOL in office but not in power
God knows what Scott will do when his idol Fake Dave steps down,would be fun if scotty was rooting for Osborne in the leadership contest ;-)
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
LOL in office but not in power
God knows what Scott will do when his idol Fake Dave steps down,would be fun if scotty was rooting for Osborne in the leadership contest ;-)
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
LOL in office but not in power
God knows what Scott will do when his idol Fake Dave steps down,would be fun if scotty was rooting for Osborne in the leadership contest ;-)
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
There isn't even a deal to criticise. Cameron achieved nothing at all, which is, presumably, why he never ever mentions the deal now. It's like it never happened. He wants his silly non-deal forgotten, because he knows it is embarrassing and unhelpful to his cause.
You had noticed this, right?
Did you ever answer my question on what your take on it is?
I'll start you off: he achieved some stuff and didn't achieve much on some other stuff.
You can let me know your thoughts on which and what.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
On the 24th we will have a Tory government, whatever happens.
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
LOL in office but not in power
God knows what Scott will do when his idol Fake Dave steps down,would be fun if scotty was rooting for Osborne in the leadership contest ;-)
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
@jimwaterson: Newsnight says Vote Leave is going to all-but abandon the economic argument for Brexit and just talk about immigration for next month.
@JeremyCliffe: This is a straightforward concession of defeat. Only point of Leave campaign now is to make excuses for own failure. https://t.co/E3798qPM9M
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
There isn't even a deal to criticise. Cameron achieved nothing at all, which is, presumably, why he never ever mentions the deal now. It's like it never happened. He wants his silly non-deal forgotten, because he knows it is embarrassing and unhelpful to his cause.
You had noticed this, right?
Did you ever answer my question on what your take on it is?
I'll start you off: he achieved some stuff and didn't achieve much on some other stuff.
You can let me know your thoughts on which and what.
He achieved the miniature quintessence of absolute Fuck All. And he knows it. And we all know it. And the papers know it. And Carswell actually predicted it. That's my take. It is also Cameron's take, hence his total silence about it ever since.
I can't remember the last time a REMAIN campaigner mentioned "the deal". Can you? Exactly.
Next.
So you have no idea. No shame in that but don't then use it as the cornerstone of your argument.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
and you think calling people thick strengthens your case ?
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
To be fair he was accused of being one of the dumbest posters on this site in the first instance. Which whether you like what he says or not is obviously untrue.
Could have sworn I read on here that Leavers were upset by the personal and vitriolic attacks made on them. Perhaps some of them should read this thread when they've calmed down/sobered up.
@jimwaterson: Newsnight says Vote Leave is going to all-but abandon the economic argument for Brexit and just talk about immigration for next month.
@JeremyCliffe: This is a straightforward concession of defeat. Only point of Leave campaign now is to make excuses for own failure.https://t.co/E3798qPM9M
They were warned. I am presuming Leave will lose. I am hoping those who presided over a disastrous campaign will have a long hard think about what how to respond to legitimate concerns over the economy.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
Actually the main criticism is that it doesn't actually do anything useful and didn't deliver anything much that he said it would.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
and you think calling people thick strengthens your case ?
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
LOL. Insecure, much?
"But I've got a GCSE in woodwork, and my mate has an A-grade in Home Economics" appeals @Alanbrooke
And I joined the discussion when there were some pretty nasty comments flying around already so in the immortal words: I didn't start it.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
To be fair he was accused of being one of the dumbest posters on this site in the first instance. Which whether you like what he says or not is obviously untrue.
Could have sworn I read on here that Leavers were upset by the personal and vitriolic attacks made on them. Perhaps some of them should read this thread when they've calmed down/sobered up.
Of course Topping isnt stupid. Laugh it off and move on. Generally speaking weve all been called worse things by better people.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
There isn't even a deal to criticise. Cameron achieved nothing at all, which is, presumably, why he never ever mentions the deal now. It's like it never happened. He wants his silly non-deal forgotten, because he knows it is embarrassing and unhelpful to his cause.
You had noticed this, right?
Did you ever answer my question on what your take on it is?
I'll start you off: he achieved some stuff and didn't achieve much on some other stuff.
You can let me know your thoughts on which and what.
He achieved the miniature quintessence of absolute Fuck All. And he knows it. And we all know it. And the papers know it. And Carswell actually predicted it. That's my take. It is also Cameron's take, hence his total silence about it ever since.
I can't remember the last time a REMAIN campaigner mentioned "the deal". Can you? Exactly.
Next.
So you have no idea. No shame in that but don't then use it as the cornerstone of your argument.
I actually READ the deal. Unlike many. I also read the bloomberg speech, and know the yawning, epochal gulf between the two.
There is no deal. Cameron got, in all sincerity, less than nothing. Apart from abandoning our veto on further eurozone integration. But he did get a nice sentence about "the Queen being pretty when she was younger" which will, it is said, likely be written on a wooden plaque and hung on a canal bridge near Bruges, for a few months. Perhaps. Possibly. Who can be sure.
Enough of this. Why am I talking to you. You're not smart, funny or interesting.
Game of Thrones it is.
Cameron would have been better off not trying to get a "deal". He loss of the veto is a real gamechanger.
@kevwodonnell: Vote Leave by their own admission going "core vote on immigration". Let us hear no more shoddy lectures about "project fear" from them.
They had to try and blunt BSIEU's attacks before counter-attacking. If you were VL would you be happy to be in the current position after all that has been thrown at you?
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
Actually the main criticism is that it doesn't actually do anything useful and didn't deliver anything much that he said it would.
Little on immigration.
Little on repatriation of powers.
Yes. Agree. Nothing on immigration. That is of course the bitter pill that will have to be swallowed and if it is your ("one's") thing, of course ample reason to vote out.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
and you think calling people thick strengthens your case ?
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
LOL. Insecure, much?
"But I've got a GCSE in woodwork, and my mate has an A-grade in Home Economics" appeals @Alanbrooke
And I joined the discussion when there were some pretty nasty comments flying around already so in the immortal words: I didn't start it.
Right so since youve avoided the question Ill take that as youd rather not answer. Well draw our own conclusions.
Lord Ashcroft Thursday I will be releasing 5000 sample survey showing how the referendum battle is developing shedding light on the competing campaigns
Will this be as sharp and clear a light as his polling shone on the GE? I am all of a quiver in antici....pation
Part of the problem with this referendum is that we are two nations.
One half can't understand why the other would vote Remain. The other can't fathom why anyone would vote Leave.
Summed up to perfection in one sentence. To be fair that could also apply to the Tory / Labour divide at GE's but still.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
There isn't even a deal to criticise. Cameron achieved nothing at all, which is, presumably, why he never ever mentions the deal now. It's like it never happened. He wants his silly non-deal forgotten, because he knows it is embarrassing and unhelpful to his cause.
You had noticed this, right?
Did you ever answer my question on what your take on it is?
I'll start you off: he achieved some stuff and didn't achieve much on some other stuff.
You can let me know your thoughts on which and what.
He achieved the miniature quintessence of absolute Fuck All. And he knows it. And we all know it. And the papers know it. And Carswell actually predicted it. That's my take. It is also Cameron's take, hence his total silence about it ever since.
I can't remember the last time a REMAIN campaigner mentioned "the deal". Can you? Exactly.
Next.
Add to that the EU meetings and formal acceptance and agreement to the crap deal will only be made after our referendum.
Why Vote Leave ever thought they could win on the economy is baffling. Has to be immigration.
We have had 14 weeks mainly on the economy. If immigration was featured up front, maybe it would have bored/switched off the voters by now. Going immigration now might be the right time. The REMAIN strategy is run by two people that have won referendums before. Cameron, Osborne and the Govt have not fully run a referendum before. The Indie referendum was, I believe, mainly controlled by Labour with Osborne kept out and the UK civil servants providing some support.
looks like Sarah Wollaston is having second thoughts about the nutters and wierdos she's climbing into bed with. She's far too sensible to be in the Leave camp.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
and you think calling people thick strengthens your case ?
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
LOL. Insecure, much?
"But I've got a GCSE in woodwork, and my mate has an A-grade in Home Economics" appeals @Alanbrooke
And I joined the discussion when there were some pretty nasty comments flying around already so in the immortal words: I didn't start it.
Right so since youve avoided the question Ill take that as youd rather not answer. Well draw our own conclusions.
I can't remember the question and am also heading off so we'll have to leave it there.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
and you think calling people thick strengthens your case ?
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
LOL. Insecure, much?
"But I've got a GCSE in woodwork, and my mate has an A-grade in Home Economics" appeals @Alanbrooke
And I joined the discussion when there were some pretty nasty comments flying around already so in the immortal words: I didn't start it.
Right so since youve avoided the question Ill take that as youd rather not answer. Well draw our own conclusions.
I can't remember the question and am also heading off so we'll have to leave it there.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
I agree. That is a perfect summary of Dave and his non negotiation. Glad you can see it too now.
Nope. He got lots of stuff codified (not letting @SeanT off the hook by describing it).
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
Actually the main criticism is that it doesn't actually do anything useful and didn't deliver anything much that he said it would.
Little on immigration.
Little on repatriation of powers.
Yes. Agree. Nothing on immigration. That is of course the bitter pill that will have to be swallowed and if it is your ("one's") thing, of course ample reason to vote out.
There is nothing on repatriation of powers, and possibly stripping more powers later on.
The EU is going in a direction that will lead to all sorts of loons getting elected across Europe, the evidence is already there. Yet they are not interested in even modest reform.
And for that reason, I'm out. The EU is going to have continuing ructions.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Don't mind them making forecasts ..... When they get one any where near correct of course then that will be certainly amazing.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I was irritated at some of the ranting at other posters. Although they don't need my assistance and it reflecting more on the ranters than the rantees, I don't think they should get a free pass to do it.
and you think calling people thick strengthens your case ?
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
LOL. Insecure, much?
"But I've got a GCSE in woodwork, and my mate has an A-grade in Home Economics" appeals @Alanbrooke
And I joined the discussion when there were some pretty nasty comments flying around already so in the immortal words: I didn't start it.
Right so since youve avoided the question Ill take that as youd rather not answer. Well draw our own conclusions.
I can't remember the question and am also heading off so we'll have to leave it there.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I w
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
Themoral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all?
Give me your take on it.
Yes. My take is that it was a lie from beginning to end, a complete fraud and pantomime, as Douglas Carswell correctly predicted in his resignation speech.
"No one cheered David Cameron more loudly at the time of his Bloomberg speech, when he finally accepted the case for a referendum. He would, he claimed, negotiate a fundamentally new relationship with the EU, and put it to the people in 2017; In or Out.
But there’s been no detail since. That’s because there isn’t any...
Cameron's advisers have made it clear that they seek a new deal that gives them just enough to persuade enough voters to vote to stay in. It’s not about change in our national interest. It’s all about not changing things.
Once I realised that, my position in the Conservative party became untenable"
I hoped, at the time, that he was wrong. But he was right.
It continues to amaze me that anybody believed back in 2012 that Cameron was being genuine. Even a few months ago some on here were speculating he might recommend a Leave vote. Bizarre.
Immigration is by far the strongest card Leave have. They'd be mad not to play it for all it's worth. Remain have no effective comeback. To really resonate, though, Leave need an event. Looks like the Mail is trying to help create one.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I w
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
Themoral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all?
Give me your take on it.
Yes. My take is that it was a lie from beginning to end, a complete fraud and pantomime, as Douglas Carswell correctly predicted in his resignation speech.
"No one cheered David Cameron more loudly at the time of his Bloomberg speech, when he finally accepted the case for a referendum. He would, he claimed, negotiate a fundamentally new relationship with the EU, and put it to the people in 2017; In or Out.
But there’s been no detail since. That’s because there isn’t any...
Cameron's advisers have made it clear that they seek a new deal that gives them just enough to persuade enough voters to vote to stay in. It’s not about change in our national interest. It’s all about not changing things.
Once I realised that, my position in the Conservative party became untenable"
I hoped, at the time, that he was wrong. But he was right.
It continues to amaze me that anybody believed back in 2012 that Cameron was being genuine. Even a few months ago some on here were speculating he might recommend a Leave vote. Bizarre.
Served a purpose. The only one ( other than UKIP) that offered a referendum in the last GE.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I w
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
Themoral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all?
Give me your take on it.
Yes. My take is that it was a lie from beginning to end, a complete fraud and pantomime, as Douglas Carswell correctly predicted in his resignation speech.
"No one cheered David Camerontiate a fundamentally new relationship with the EU, and put it to the people in 2017; In or Out.
But there’s been no detail since. That’s because there isn’t any...
Cameron's advisers have made it clear that they seek a new deal that gives them just enough to persuade enough voters to vote to stay in. It’s not about change in our national interest. It’s all about not changing things.
Once I realised that, my position in the Conservative party became untenable"
I hoped, at the time, that he was wrong. But he was right.
It continues to amaze me that anybody believed back in 2012 that Cameron was being genuine. Even a few months ago some on here were speculating he might recommend a Leave vote. Bizarre.
Served a purpose. The only one ( other than UKIP) that offered a referendum in the last GE.
Means to an end in'all.
But how can anyone feel genuinely betrayed? Surely we all knew what was coming.
In October 2016 the EU enact the corporation tax harmonisation directive - all countries in the EU must now tax businesses at approximately the same level - which for arguments sake we'll say is 27.5%. (This legislation is already proposed).
The stated aim is to prevent corporations moving money around Europe to minimise tax payments and to ensure that taxes are paid in the countries in which the business trades.
The UK is forced to cancel plans to reduce corporation tax to 18% and the Irish are forced to raise theirs.
Corporations now realise that there is no financial benefit to pay taxes to the UK and start migrating more towards Germany and France (who have reduced their rates accordingly).
Income from corporation tax starts reducing, putting a strain on the Government.
Inward investment from outside the EU stops coming to the UK as it is now seen to be on the periphery of Europe.
This lack of investment and moving of corporations away from the UK causes a recession as big as 2008 - The UK Government has to start borrowing £150 billion a year to meet the social security costs.
As unemployment rises inexorably towards 3 million, the Eurosceptic Tories split to form a 'True Blue' political party. The Conservative Government hangs on until 2020 supported by Labour and has to enact a more socialist agenda.
In 2020 the Eurosceptic parties take control of the UK Parliament.
The EU announces that it will not deal with the UK Government since it is not bound by the European Ideal (This legislation has already come into effect and has been applied). They stop forwarding money paid back to the UK (£5 billion) and the UK is forbidden to vote on EU policy making.
With the UK out of the way, a raft of legislation damaging to the UK is then passed. The veto is removed and the UK rebate is cancelled. ............................................................................................................................. Scared of Leaving now - you should be petrified of what will happen if we Remain.
In October 2016 the EU enact the corporation tax harmonisation directive - all countries in the EU must now tax businesses at approximately the same level - which for arguments sake we'll say is 27.5%. (This legislation is already proposed). ... Scared of Leaving now - you should be petrified of what will happen if we Remain.
So you go from a preposterous scenario, with a rounded 0 per cent chance of happening, to "what will happen if we vote remain".
Immigration is by far the strongest card Leave have. They'd be mad not to play it for all it's worth. Remain have no effective comeback. To really resonate, though, Leave need an event. Looks like the Mail is trying to help create one.
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
Well said!
Really? Leavers never rant against people who disagree with them do they?
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
He renegotiated nothing. Our relationship with the EU has not changed. It is just a smokescreen that will blow away once the referendum is out of the way.
The very definition of imbecility. They might...they will...they could...
ROFLMAO which has been exactly what Cameron and the treasury have been pushing for the last 2 weeks.
God you're thick. The treasury makes...forecasts!!! Amazing. Totally out of character. What do those boys think they're doing?
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Even funnier.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
Well said!
Really? Leavers never rant against people who disagree with them do they?
Anybody remember George Foreman vs Ali? The hot favourite threw everything at his opponent, who gasped and winced but stood resolute. And eventually, when, exhausted and spent, Foreman started to flounder, Ali moved in for the kill.
Now Dave, please explain WHY you wanted to reduce immigration so drastically.
Interesting BBC1 programme just finishing on Newham and the mass exodus of the white working class to Essex etc and the multi ethnic nature of the area now
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I w
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
Themoral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all?
Give me your take on it.
Yes. My take is that it was a lie from beginning to end, a complete fraud and pantomime, as Douglas Carswell correctly predicted in his resignation speech.
"No one cheered David Camerontiate a fundamentally new relationship with the EU, and put it to the people in 2017; In or Out.
But there’s been no detail since. That’s because there isn’t any...
Cameron's advisers have made it clear that they seek a new deal that gives them just enough to persuade enough voters to vote to stay in. It’s not about change in our national interest. It’s all about not changing things.
Once I realised that, my position in the Conservative party became untenable"
I hoped, at the time, that he was wrong. But he was right.
It continues to amaze me that anybody believed back in 2012 that Cameron was being genuine. Even a few months ago some on here were speculating he might recommend a Leave vote. Bizarre.
Served a purpose. The only one ( other than UKIP) that offered a referendum in the last GE.
Means to an end in'all.
But how can anyone feel genuinely betrayed? Surely we all knew what was coming.
Hope can be a dangerous thing as can trust if you have too much of them.
IMO the people who did have too much hope and trust in Cameron are now the angriest.
Doubled again Constant nesting site unreadable have to edit just about every post
Give up
In the post you praised there was criticism of ranting against people whose ideas one disagrees with. Having spent the last hour reading Topping, TSE and Scott P getting both barrels from the herd it seemed a tad hypocritical. Sorry, didn't make myself clear
Anybody remember George Foreman vs Ali? The hot favourite threw everything at his opponent, who gasped and winced but stood resolute. And eventually, when, exhausted and spent, Foreman started to flounder, Ali moved in for the kill.
Now Dave, please explain WHY you wanted to reduce immigration so drastically.
Over to you Remainers.
I remember watching Cassius Clay in a big fight around 1970, and that he won, I had not heard of Ali at that time
Interesting BBC1 programme just finishing on Newham and the mass exodus of the white working class to Essex etc and the multi ethnic nature of the area now
East Ham and Ilford South (in neighbouring Redbridge) are the two least white Westminster seats.
Interesting BBC1 programme just finishing on Newham and the mass exodus of the white working class to Essex etc and the multi ethnic nature of the area now
East Ham and Ilford South (in neighbouring Redbridge) are the two least white Westminster seats.
Yes and the latter has gone from Tory marginal to Labour safe seat in two decades
@maitlis: Tonight on #newsnight our political editor @nicholaswatt on a change of strategy in the heart of #VoteLeave
They are ditching sovereignty, it's immigration, all day, every day from now till the vote
A shame, as personally its the sovereignty I care about, not immigration, and it was already nasty in this debate, and immigration just makes everyone nastier still.
Everyone have a nice month, I think I'll sit this one out!
@maitlis: Tonight on #newsnight our political editor @nicholaswatt on a change of strategy in the heart of #VoteLeave
They are ditching sovereignty, it's immigration, all day, every day from now till the vote
A shame, as personally its the sovereignty I care about, not immigration, and it was already nasty in this debate, and immigration just makes everyone nastier still.
Everyone have a nice month, I think I'll sit this one out!
@maitlis: Tonight on #newsnight our political editor @nicholaswatt on a change of strategy in the heart of #VoteLeave
They are ditching sovereignty, it's immigration, all day, every day from now till the vote
A shame, as personally its the sovereignty I care about, not immigration, and it was already nasty in this debate, and immigration just makes everyone nastier still.
Everyone have a nice month, I think I'll sit this one out!
Hey, I care about sovereignty too, I also care about how much money we send to Brussels (net, of course!).
A good early morning to all still awake........ and before I slip between the sheets. To my mind the pollsters are still thrashing about with methodology after the thrashing they got at the last GE.
I'm dubious about online polls but not much less so about phone polls. Who the hell uses a landline these days? And who is going to answer a nuisance call from a pollster?
The polling industry is all over the place and clearly hasn't really taken on board the catastrophe of GE2015.
@maitlis: Tonight on #newsnight our political editor @nicholaswatt on a change of strategy in the heart of #VoteLeave
They are ditching sovereignty, it's immigration, all day, every day from now till the vote
A shame, as personally its the sovereignty I care about, not immigration, and it was already nasty in this debate, and immigration just makes everyone nastier still.
Everyone have a nice month, I think I'll sit this one out!
So within the past month or so, VoteLeave have done the following: * advanced options (Canada, Albania) that nobody thought were the best options * ignored (rejected?) the obvious exit route via EFTA/EEA * rebuffed the other LEAVE advocates (Farage, Grassroots.Out, et al), ensuring a divided LEAVE * started a bidding war on immigration ("3 million Syrians!" "5 million more!" "12 MILLION TURKS!") * Sent Boris on a bus trip
I don't know what to say about this. I broke my fingers once and, before the pain kicked in, I sorta stared at them. Looking at them pointing the wrong way invoked a wrenching sense of internal wrongness, a sense that things should not be like that. I get the same feeling now: what the hell is happening?
On the thread heading topic — the best way to avoid this bias would clearly be to accept all respondents to the poll until the monday morning, and then randomly take the necessary number of respondents from each demographic. Instead they're going to piss around with some complex weighty modelly business.
Anyway, there's no evidence that this observed effect is not predicting what will happen on the 23rd i.e. leavers will turn out early and turn out often (joke). At least, they may have a higher turnout than stayers.
Basically polling companies need to learn some humility. The best they can offer in this referendum is a trend between polls conducted with the same methodology. Any prediction is a guess. If it happens to be a correct guess, it will still be a guess.
Basically polling companies need to learn some humility. The best they can offer in this referendum is a trend between polls conducted with the same methodology. Any prediction is a guess. If it happens to be a correct guess, it will still be a guess.
Agreed.
What they have not done is learn lessons on methodology. Online and Phone polls, the latter using landlines, belong to the 1990's not 2016.
Comments
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
And "the party' is not threatening self-destruction, only the losers
Hopefully the electorate will pay as much attention to Cameron's warnings about Brexit as they did to his smears of Khan.
The dogs whose crap he trod in will ask for it back. Women will return his semen. Hasso von Manteuffel will laugh as he surrenders bastogne.
They are ditching sovereignty, it's immigration, all day, every day from now till the vote
He went to renegotiate our relationship with the EU. And ended up renegotiating our relationship with the EU.
Oh the horror.
And as to Rotherham I accused you of not caring (for which I did apologise) and you accused me of being the sickest man on PB for asking inconvenient questions.
Who was proved right there.
21 months after the Jay report and how many plods, social workers, childrens home managers, councillors and council officials have been arrested ?
why does this surprise you ?
And what % was fear of EdSNP?
He got the win, but he limped over the line and it was because his actual product is dubious at best.
He will limp over the line in the referendum as well.
That was your sole example of the oppressive yoke of the EU. 25 years ago.
It doesn't get dumber than that.
Owen Jones type mind-set in righteous certainty and positive reinforcement from some leavers.
Soon be over (not soon enough!!) and then we can look forward to how many people want to threaten kipper-jumping.
Such merriment.
Interesting that @nicholaswatt seems to think that turnout is forecast as low in the referendum. Betting markets now at 63.5% and rising
Meanwhile the only criticism of the deal, which few understand, is that it will be ignored, struck down, etc, moron, moron.
Why think when somebody else will do it for you.
5/18-5/22
2016 New Jersey Presidential GE
Clinton 48% Trump 37%
Fairleigh Dickinson
Still, about a 7 point shift to Trump/GOP since 2012.
I'll start you off: he achieved some stuff and didn't achieve much on some other stuff.
You can let me know your thoughts on which and what.
You used to be one of the more sensible remainers - youd worked out it was in your interest to remain so fair does - youd be mad to vote against it.
Now youre just ranting at anyone whose vote you dont like. Even if they're voting for whats best for them. sad.
Calling people thick on this blog when most of them have a couple of degrees and run businesses is simply code for you cant convince other people. Problem might be you not them.
The main criticism seems to be (a la Michael Gove) that it will be struck down. An imbecilic response.
@JeremyCliffe: This is a straightforward concession of defeat. Only point of Leave campaign now is to make excuses for own failure. https://t.co/E3798qPM9M
Let us hear no more shoddy lectures about "project fear" from them.
currently youve said a best selling author , a bloke who spends his time on oil rigs and myself who has more letters after his name than in it are thick.
could you tell us why your achievements might outrank us ?
Could have sworn I read on here that Leavers were upset by the personal and vitriolic attacks made on them. Perhaps some of them should read this thread when they've calmed down/sobered up.
Little on immigration.
Little on repatriation of powers.
"But I've got a GCSE in woodwork, and my mate has an A-grade in Home Economics" appeals @Alanbrooke
And I joined the discussion when there were some pretty nasty comments flying around already so in the immortal words: I didn't start it.
Oh well....
TOPPING (A* Interpretive Dance)
The EU is going in a direction that will lead to all sorts of loons getting elected across Europe, the evidence is already there. Yet they are not interested in even modest reform.
And for that reason, I'm out. The EU is going to have continuing ructions.
He was the bloke who pledged to reduce it to tens of thousands.
Why did he want to?
Why didn't he?
How will remaining in the EU help him achieve it?
Was he lying?
Anybody think Nigel won't ask him these questions?
Drive it home Nigel, let the fatted pig squeal.
Means to an end in'all.
In October 2016 the EU enact the corporation tax harmonisation directive - all countries in the EU must now tax businesses at approximately the same level - which for arguments sake we'll say is 27.5%. (This legislation is already proposed).
The stated aim is to prevent corporations moving money around Europe to minimise tax payments and to ensure that taxes are paid in the countries in which the business trades.
The UK is forced to cancel plans to reduce corporation tax to 18% and the Irish are forced to raise theirs.
Corporations now realise that there is no financial benefit to pay taxes to the UK and start migrating more towards Germany and France (who have reduced their rates accordingly).
Income from corporation tax starts reducing, putting a strain on the Government.
Inward investment from outside the EU stops coming to the UK as it is now seen to be on the periphery of Europe.
This lack of investment and moving of corporations away from the UK causes a recession as big as 2008 - The UK Government has to start borrowing £150 billion a year to meet the social security costs.
As unemployment rises inexorably towards 3 million, the Eurosceptic Tories split to form a 'True Blue' political party. The Conservative Government hangs on until 2020 supported by Labour and has to enact a more socialist agenda.
In 2020 the Eurosceptic parties take control of the UK Parliament.
The EU announces that it will not deal with the UK Government since it is not bound by the European Ideal (This legislation has already come into effect and has been applied). They stop forwarding money paid back to the UK (£5 billion) and the UK is forbidden to vote on EU policy making.
With the UK out of the way, a raft of legislation damaging to the UK is then passed. The veto is removed and the UK rebate is cancelled.
.............................................................................................................................
Scared of Leaving now - you should be petrified of what will happen if we Remain.
A peg on nose vote etc
Constant nesting site unreadable have to edit just about every post
Give up
Now Dave, please explain WHY you wanted to reduce immigration so drastically.
Over to you Remainers.
IMO the people who did have too much hope and trust in Cameron are now the angriest.
Casino might be an example.
No wonder he won't debate with anybody.
Bring it on, expose the charlatan for what he is.
Everyone have a nice month, I think I'll sit this one out!
To my mind the pollsters are still thrashing about with methodology after the thrashing they got at the last GE.
Chapeau, sir!
The polling industry is all over the place and clearly hasn't really taken on board the catastrophe of GE2015.
* advanced options (Canada, Albania) that nobody thought were the best options
* ignored (rejected?) the obvious exit route via EFTA/EEA
* rebuffed the other LEAVE advocates (Farage, Grassroots.Out, et al), ensuring a divided LEAVE
* started a bidding war on immigration ("3 million Syrians!" "5 million more!" "12 MILLION TURKS!")
* Sent Boris on a bus trip
I don't know what to say about this. I broke my fingers once and, before the pain kicked in, I sorta stared at them. Looking at them pointing the wrong way invoked a wrenching sense of internal wrongness, a sense that things should not be like that. I get the same feeling now: what the hell is happening?
Anyway, there's no evidence that this observed effect is not predicting what will happen on the 23rd i.e. leavers will turn out early and turn out often (joke). At least, they may have a higher turnout than stayers.
Basically polling companies need to learn some humility. The best they can offer in this referendum is a trend between polls conducted with the same methodology. Any prediction is a guess. If it happens to be a correct guess, it will still be a guess.
What they have not done is learn lessons on methodology. Online and Phone polls, the latter using landlines, belong to the 1990's not 2016.