I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
Check the comments over at conhome and their polls.
Against all this, one must congratulate the Remain crowd for their professional hit job of a campaign
@gabyhinsliff: Don't understand what Brexiters moaning about how PM's run this referendum actually expected. Don't they remember the AVref? Indyref? GE?
@gabyhinsliff: It's as if they'd all somehow missed that 1. DC can be utterly ruthless 2. he really likes winning 3. winning is the thing he's good at
@gabyhinsliff: But those are the three most important things to know about Cameron. You'd think his own party might have noticed, over the years.
Tories are naive twats ?
It's hard to disagree with that thesis. Like Gaby Hinsliff, I can't begin to work out what Conservative Leavers were expecting the Prime Minister to do during this campaign. I doubt he's played Ludo with his children without trying to win.
Cameron does not win all the time. 1. GE2010 - he won most seats against Brown, he did not win a majority, the manifesto was a mess and the campaign was disjointed and badly delivered with few core messages and a lack of testing the messages with research. 2. Juncker - Cameron opposed and lost that appointment. Completely outvoted. 3. The referendum - Cameron was dragged kicking and screaming by major back bench rebellions to agree it.
As to tactics to win the referendum, Harold Wilson won his without breaking his party apart or having a rebellion against his premiership. It is even arguable that Cameron's act of fronting the campaign has lost more votes than he gained.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
Check the comments over at conhome and their polls.
Leave will win when it goes EFTA/EEA (which means none of the economic arguments have any force) and when one of the big two back it.
I'm going for Labour 2025.
It won't.
If Leave hasn't got a solution to immigration, it has nothing.
Leave need to play the one chance in a lifetime card. The poor will be stuck and screwed because they can't afford to move; the wealthy don't give a toss because they can always buy their way out of it.
Against all this, one must congratulate the Remain crowd for their professional hit job of a campaign
@gabyhinsliff: Don't understand what Brexiters moaning about how PM's run this referendum actually expected. Don't they remember the AVref? Indyref? GE?
@gabyhinsliff: It's as if they'd all somehow missed that 1. DC can be utterly ruthless 2. he really likes winning 3. winning is the thing he's good at
@gabyhinsliff: But those are the three most important things to know about Cameron. You'd think his own party might have noticed, over the years.
It does make you wonder.
The campaign isn't good, it's relentlessly negative and frankly in my view counter-productive to both the actual campaign (though obviously many on the remain side will disagree) and democracy. However what it isn't is unexpected. Accordingly, you'd have thought someone in Leave might have had a plan.
It could be a Hannibal type plan, in which case it's quite cleaver but I have yet to see the horns let alone them closing in.
In many ways this was all about timing and the PM has picked his optimum time.
The Remain Campaign is following the 1992 election strategy to a 't'. This is a rerun of Labour's £2,000 Tax Bombshell. And - then as now - it is likely to be sadly successful. Fortunately, then as now, it is likely to be reversed five years later, as it sows the seeds of its own destruction.
Having aired most of the EU issues and them being denied/waved off by "the great and the good", there are a lot of armed mines lined up ahead for the EU issue to set off in the next few years, or maybe months.
"oh dear Mr PM we have this ruling from europe to ....give votes to prisoners and you must pay some prisoners compensation for denying the right to vote.... etc etc" Multiply by a hundred other examples for many newspapers to go after.
That kind of small-scale issue isn't going to topple governments or even ministers. It's just an Express headline. What would set the cat among the pigeons is:
* the EU somehow forces us to adopt the Euro * the EU somehow forces us to abandon trial by jury * the EU uses its army to invade us
all of which have been predicted on this forum, of course.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
Ah, a future prediction expert. Just what a betting site needs...
Sorry Scott me old paster Ive been watching GOT.
Whats the news from the Tory civil war ? Incoherent Tories piss money up the wall ? George Osborne is Rolf harris love child ? Dave Cameon had sex with IDS ?
Do post more there's nothing we non tories love better than Tories at WAR !
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
Check the comments over at conhome and their polls.
1. I said sane.
2. I've seen others further ahead at times as well.
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
The national interest is more important than the interest of any political party. If we vote Leave, I'll be content to see UKIP vanish, without it's raison d'être.
I may sign out for a bit and come back when something interesting has happened. Am trying to recover from bronchitis so early nights are a good thing and there are the programmes on the Chelsea Flower Show to catch up on.
Obviously if we vote Leave and Armageddon happens it may not be possible to communicate anymore. Oh well....
Don't go, my stint as Guest Editor begins next week, and I've got some awesome puns lined up.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
Check the comments over at conhome and their polls.
Yes, but does anyone sane want him?
The implication that the selectorate of political parties are sane are refuted by the following six words:
Hilary Clinton Donald Trump Jeremy Corbyn.
So I don't think you should be so sanguine about Fox. He might just come through the middle as an outsider in a nasty 3 cornered contest.
If Remain wins, arguably the biggest losers would be the Tory press. Their lack of relevance, given their manic denunciations of Remain, would be excruciatingly exposed.
Surely it's the risk of Brexit that is responsible for Osborne missing his borrowing target every year?
In fairness, his short term forecasts have been more accurate than any Chancellor I can recall. Possibly since Palpatine.
snipped
No that would be less accurate. Maybe the right way less accurate but still. This year is the first time Osborne has missed his year on year target. Might suggest less low hanging fruit, fewer tweaks that haven't been used and things getting tighter and tighter of course.
I see what you're saying.
But to be honest when the Treasury already has over 90% of that year's data you would expect the Budget to be accurate for the year which it is in. With self-assessment, the internet and ever more powerful computers things have been getting easier for the Treasury for years.
There was a quote in Yes (Prime) Minister where they said that before the invention of the photo copier the Treasury officials had less to read and therefore less to confuse them. The gag could be updated to include computers.
Only too true. When I had to start working part-time I soon realised, there's a point at which you have to x hours simply in order to replay to all the e-mails, before you can think about doing any work.
Email is regarded as a potential cause of the productivity stagnation of the last decade.
Only potential? Electronic comms have enabled a level of director-level control freakery that has completely paralysed some workplaces. Back In the day middle managers had to be simply trusted to do the job, now they spend half their time on nugatory management of the next level up. Lunacy.
You wouldn't be speaking from experience would you
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
If Remain wins, arguably the biggest losers would be the Tory press. Their lack of relevance, given their manic denunciations of Remain, would be excruciatingly exposed.
Nah the biggest losers will br the Tory hierarchy. Buy pitchforks
Against all this, one must congratulate the Remain crowd for their professional hit job of a campaign
@gabyhinsliff: Don't understand what Brexiters moaning about how PM's run this referendum actually expected. Don't they remember the AVref? Indyref? GE?
@gabyhinsliff: It's as if they'd all somehow missed that 1. DC can be utterly ruthless 2. he really likes winning 3. winning is the thing he's good at
@gabyhinsliff: But those are the three most important things to know about Cameron. You'd think his own party might have noticed, over the years.
It does make you wonder.
The campaign isn't good, it's relentlessly negative and frankly in my view counter-productive to both the actual campaign (though obviously many on the remain side will disagree) and democracy. However what it isn't is unexpected. Accordingly, you'd have thought someone in Leave might have had a plan.
It could be a Hannibal type plan, in which case it's quite cleaver but I have yet to see the horns let alone them closing in.
In many ways this was all about timing and the PM has picked his optimum time.
The Remain Campaign is following the 1992 election strategy to a 't'. This is a rerun of Labour's £2,000 Tax Bombshell. And - then as now - it is likely to be sadly successful. Fortunately, then as now, it is likely to be reversed five years later, as it sows the seeds of its own destruction.
Having aired most of the EU issues and them being denied/waved off by "the great and the good", there are a lot of armed mines lined up ahead for the EU issue to set off in the next few years, or maybe months.
"oh dear Mr PM we have this ruling from europe to ....give votes to prisoners and you must pay some prisoners compensation for denying the right to vote.... etc etc" Multiply by a hundred other examples for many newspapers to go after.
That kind of small-scale issue isn't going to topple governments or even ministers. It's just an Express headline. What would set the cat among the pigeons is:
* the EU somehow forces us to adopt the Euro * the EU somehow forces us to abandon trial by jury * the EU uses its army to invade us
all of which have been predicted on this forum, of course.
If ever it comes to using armies, the EU will be able to use the UK army to do the job.
Against all this, one must congratulate the Remain crowd for their professional hit job of a campaign
@gabyhinsliff: Don't understand what Brexiters moaning about how PM's run this referendum actually expected. Don't they remember the AVref? Indyref? GE?
@gabyhinsliff: It's as if they'd all somehow missed that 1. DC can be utterly ruthless 2. he really likes winning 3. winning is the thing he's good at
@gabyhinsliff: But those are the three most important things to know about Cameron. You'd think his own party might have noticed, over the years.
It does make you wonder.
The campaign isn't good, it's relentlessly negative and frankly in my view counter-productive to both the actual campaign (though obviously many on the remain side will disagree) and democracy. However what it isn't is unexpected. Accordingly, you'd have thought someone in Leave might have had a plan.
It could be a Hannibal type plan, in which case it's quite cleaver but I have yet to see the horns let alone them closing in.
In many ways this was all about timing and the PM has picked his optimum time.
The Remain Campaign is following the 1992 election strategy to a 't'. This is a rerun of Labour's £2,000 Tax Bombshell. And - then as now - it is likely to be sadly successful. Fortunately, then as now, it is likely to be reversed five years later, as it sows the seeds of its own destruction.
Having aired most of the EU issues and them being denied/waved off by "the great and the good", there are a lot of armed mines lined up ahead for the EU issue to set off in the next few years, or maybe months.
"oh dear Mr PM we have this ruling from europe to ....give votes to prisoners and you must pay some prisoners compensation for denying the right to vote.... etc etc" Multiply by a hundred other examples for many newspapers to go after.
That kind of small-scale issue isn't going to topple governments or even ministers. It's just an Express headline. What would set the cat among the pigeons is: * the EU somehow forces us to adopt the Euro * the EU somehow forces us to abandon trial by jury * the EU uses its army to invade us all of which have been predicted on this forum, of course.
I disagree. It is the small stuff of principle when our Government is held up in ridicule by the people as completely incapable of governing in an area of law that the people regard as part of being Britain. For example the Queen was openly mocked for failing to read the mood of the nation over Diana and it created a crisis out of a car accident.
If Remain wins, arguably the biggest losers would be the Tory press. Their lack of relevance, given their manic denunciations of Remain, would be excruciatingly exposed.
Surely it's the risk of Brexit that is responsible for Osborne missing his borrowing target every year?
In fairness, his short term forecasts have been more accurate than any Chancellor I can recall. Possibly since Palpatine.
snipped
No that would be less accurate. Maybe the right way less accurate but still. This year is the first time Osborne has missed his year on year target. Might suggest less low hanging fruit, fewer tweaks that haven't been used and things getting tighter and tighter of course.
I see what you're saying.
But to be honest when the Treasury already has over 90% of that year's data you would expect the Budget to be accurate for the year which it is in. With self-assessment, the internet and ever more powerful computers things have been getting easier for the Treasury for years.
There was a quote in Yes (Prime) Minister where they said that before the invention of the photo copier the Treasury officials had less to read and therefore less to confuse them. The gag could be updated to include computers.
Only too true. When I had to start working part-time I soon realised, there's a point at which you have to x hours simply in order to replay to all the e-mails, before you can think about doing any work.
Email is regarded as a potential cause of the productivity stagnation of the last decade.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I don't think anyone sane wants Liam Fox as leader do they?
Check the comments over at conhome and their polls.
Yes, but does anyone sane want him?
The implication that the selectorate of political parties are sane are refuted by the following six words:
Hilary Clinton Donald Trump Jeremy Corbyn.
So I don't think you should be so sanguine about Fox. He might just come through the middle as an outsider in a nasty 3 cornered contest.
I take your point.
The alternative seems to be Juncker though... and he's a fruitcake.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
Leave will win when it goes EFTA/EEA (which means none of the economic arguments have any force) and when one of the big two back it.
I'm going for Labour 2025.
It won't.
If Leave hasn't got a solution to immigration, it has nothing.
Leave need to play the one chance in a lifetime card. The poor will be stuck and screwed because they can't afford to move; the wealthy don't give a toss because they can always buy their way out of it.
You can control immigration with EFTA/EEA, you just can't do it with quotas. Instead you use an annual NHS health insurance to make the UK unattractive as a destination for unskilled workers. And, as any first year economics student will tell you, tariffs are always preferable to quotas, as they distort price signals less.
EFTA/EEA eliminates the economic disadvantage arguments for leaving. It eliminates the supremacy of the ECJ and any possibility of Euro membership. It dramatically reduces the annual bill to the UK.
And it does this without disadvantaging British businesses.
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
I doubt you'd oppose the single currency if Cameron and Osborne came out in favour.
EU took the lead from the start EU took the lead from the start And I don't know why No I don't know why It was clear in coming here I must have put the skin before the heart Before the heart
Utter hatred in the Tory ranks this evening. We need a realignment of politics in this country. The Corbynites and sensible Labour should split along with the Tory Inners and Tory Outers. But we need PR as a matter of urgency so that we all no longer have to pretend we agree with each other.
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
I doubt you'd oppose the single currency if Cameron and Osborne came out in favour.
Wrong. It will never be in the UK's interest to join the single currency.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
Leave will win when it goes EFTA/EEA (which means none of the economic arguments have any force) and when one of the big two back it.
I'm going for Labour 2025.
It won't.
If Leave hasn't got a solution to immigration, it has nothing.
Leave need to play the one chance in a lifetime card. The poor will be stuck and screwed because they can't afford to move; the wealthy don't give a toss because they can always buy their way out of it.
You can control immigration with EFTA/EEA, you just can't do it with quotas. Instead you use an annual NHS health insurance to make the UK unattractive as a destination for unskilled workers. And, as any first year economics student will tell you, tariffs are always preferable to quotas, as they distort price signals less.
EFTA/EEA eliminates the economic disadvantage arguments for leaving. It eliminates the supremacy of the ECJ and any possibility of Euro membership. It dramatically reduces the annual bill to the UK.
And it does this without disadvantaging British businesses.
Rejecting the EEA route is easily the biggest mistake Vote Leave made by a hundred miles.
Surely it's the risk of Brexit that is responsible for Osborne missing his borrowing target every year?
In fairness, his short term forecasts have been more accurate than any Chancellor I can recall. Possibly since Palpatine.
snipped
No that would be less accurate. Maybe the right way less accurate but still. This year is the first time Osborne has missed his year on year target. Might suggest less low hanging fruit, fewer tweaks that haven't been used and things getting tighter and tighter of course.
I see what you're saying.
But to be honest when the Treasury already has over 90% of that year's data you would expect the Budget to be accurate for the year which it is in. With self-assessment, the internet and ever more powerful computers things have been getting easier for the Treasury for years.
There was a quote in Yes (Prime) Minister where they said that before the invention of the photo copier the Treasury officials had less to read and therefore less to confuse them. The gag could be updated to include computers.
Only too true. When I had to start working part-time I soon realised, there's a point at which you have to x hours simply in order to replay to all the e-mails, before you can think about doing any work.
Email is regarded as a potential cause of the productivity stagnation of the last decade.
Only potential? Electronic comms have enabled a level of director-level control freakery that has completely paralysed some workplaces. Back In the day middle managers had to be simply trusted to do the job, now they spend half their time on nugatory management of the next level up. Lunacy.
You wouldn't be speaking from experience would you
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
I doubt you'd oppose the single currency if Cameron and Osborne came out in favour.
Wrong. It will never be in the UK's interest to join the single currency.
You are not concerned with what is n Britain's interests. You have made that perfectly clear on here over the last few weeks.
If Remain wins, arguably the biggest losers would be the Tory press. Their lack of relevance, given their manic denunciations of Remain, would be excruciatingly exposed.
Nah the biggest losers will br the Tory hierarchy. Buy pitchforks
That's what's so delicious. They will expend immense political capital to win a short term victory that damns them in the long term.
If Labour can elect Corbyn then it seems entirely possible that Con could elect someone like Fox.
And all the evidence from Con Home and indeed this website is that there are plenty of Con activists who are a carbon copy of the Lab activists who elected Corbyn.
The reason some people support Cameron is not because they "love" him or any such thing - it's because they recognise he is the best chance of this country continuing to be run in a mainstream, pragmatic, sensible way - and he minimises the chances of someone who would do really serious damage getting in to power.
And his electoral record up to now is outstanding. Who in 2005 after Con had won less than 200 seats for the third GE in a row would have dreamt there would have been a Con Government from 2010 to 2020?
Of course, people get bored and frustrated and always want something better so they'll get sick of him in the end - but his template is the best bet - and unless you want Corbyn then the best option will be "Continuity Cameron" - which will mean Theresa May.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
The 'bastards' didn't bring down Major. He did that all on his own.
If Labour can elect Corbyn then it seems entirely possible that Con could elect someone like Fox.
Corbyn won by inspiring a wave of enthusiasm among the broader left in the country. You could never imagine Fox leading a popular movement of any kind at all.
What we 'need' are more ideas driven parties, but FPTP mitigates against allowing them to develop. Instead of UKIP we ought to have a party like the AfD but they would get smothered in our current regime of bland big-tent consensus politics.
And, as any first year economics student will tell you, tariffs are always preferable to quotas, as they distort price signals less.
They will take their chance, Robert.
And when it goes wrong, there will be an incessant supply of Guardian readers/columnists telling the UK how heartless and terrible we are if we deny them free care.
We are the 5th largest economy in the world; we can afford to give it away.
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
I doubt you'd oppose the single currency if Cameron and Osborne came out in favour.
Wrong. It will never be in the UK's interest to join the single currency.
Until someone tells you it is and then youll just flap all over the place and calim its what you always meant
you have the credibility of a "reformed" french alcoholic in a recently emptied wine cellar
Campaigning went well in Sheffield today, in one of the areas that I'd expect to contain a lot of stronger Remainers that might not be arsed to vote come June 23rd.
Was pleasantly surprised by the reception/anticipated turnout. Odd campaign cut throughs.
1) All those Leavers who want to spend £350 million per week on the NHS want to privatise the NHS don't they
2) I thought I canvassed Alanbrooke, 'that Osborne's a twat' but he's right on what Brexit means for the economy, Ed Balls said so.
I'm expecting turnout to be a higher than expected.
I'll be doing a more Leave friendly area later on this week will report back then.
My campaign reports at the GE last year were prescient and forecast the Tories doing well in West Yorkshire.
This chimes in with my campaigning experience with Labour In campaign in London (how many people here are actually campaigning in this referendum rather than just talking about it??)
Remain well ahead in my area - Leaves found in significant numbers only on social housing estates - very few in private property.
High level of interest, I would expect general election level turnout. Leaves are older, poorer, angrier - blame all their troubles on immigrants.
Those people should blame the lying bastard politicians and the lackeys who bullshit for them.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
The 'bastards' didn't bring down Major. He did that all on his own.
Major as Chancellor took us into the ERM and the rest was a complete f**k up by him then and as PM.
Having aired most of the EU issues and them being denied/waved off by "the great and the good", there are a lot of armed mines lined up ahead for the EU issue to set off in the next few years, or maybe months.
"oh dear Mr PM we have this ruling from europe to ....give votes to prisoners and you must pay some prisoners compensation for denying the right to vote.... etc etc" Multiply by a hundred other examples for many newspapers to go after.
That kind of small-scale issue isn't going to topple governments or even ministers. It's just an Express headline. What would set the cat among the pigeons is: * the EU somehow forces us to adopt the Euro * the EU somehow forces us to abandon trial by jury * the EU uses its army to invade us all of which have been predicted on this forum, of course.
I disagree. It is the small stuff of principle when our Government is held up in ridicule by the people as completely incapable of governing in an area of law that the people regard as part of being Britain. For example the Queen was openly mocked for failing to read the mood of the nation over Diana and it created a crisis out of a car accident.
The Queen isn't a politician, has no power and doesn't run anything. One can be for or against her without it affecting one's vote.
What I'm saying is just the obvious (I think): elections are decided by big issues that affect people's daily lives, not stuff like votes for prisoners.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
The 'bastards' didn't bring down Major. He did that all on his own.
Major as Chancellor took us into the ERM and the rest was a complete f**k up by him then and as PM.
And yet no government has ever inherited as good a situation as in 1997... The Major government did a lot right.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
The 'bastards' didn't bring down Major. He did that all on his own.
Major as Chancellor took us into the ERM and the rest was a complete f**k up by him then and as PM.
Yep. I also love the fact that after he signed the Maastricht Treaty he was dumb enough to moan when the ECJ ignored his opt outs. Fecking useless.
Campaigning went well in Sheffield today, in one of the areas that I'd expect to contain a lot of stronger Remainers that might not be arsed to vote come June 23rd.
Was pleasantly surprised by the reception/anticipated turnout. Odd campaign cut throughs.
1) All those Leavers who want to spend £350 million per week on the NHS want to privatise the NHS don't they
2) I thought I canvassed Alanbrooke, 'that Osborne's a twat' but he's right on what Brexit means for the economy, Ed Balls said so.
I'm expecting turnout to be a higher than expected.
I'll be doing a more Leave friendly area later on this week will report back then.
My campaign reports at the GE last year were prescient and forecast the Tories doing well in West Yorkshire.
This chimes in with my campaigning experience with Labour In campaign in London (how many people here are actually campaigning in this referendum rather than just talking about it??)
Remain well ahead in my area - Leaves found in significant numbers only on social housing estates - very few in private property.
High level of interest, I would expect general election level turnout. Leaves are older, poorer, angrier - blame all their troubles on immigrants.
Those people should blame the lying bastard politicians and the lackeys who bullshit for them.
That;s where Scott Paster comes in
His latest post of Oxbridge Tory sheep shagging Etonians drown in a tsunami of their own semen was a classic
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
The EC.
I think you've just exposed the trend and yourself.
You'll be campaigning for the single currency and ever closer union when the time comes - after a certain amount of 'undecideness' and then being 'persuaded' by some establishment line.
Like this time.
When you were 'persuaded' to vote Remain by George Osborne's economic arguments and 'persuaded' to campaign by the threat of Liam Fox.
Really ? Liam Fox ??? Is that the best justification you can come up with ?
You were always going to vote Remain and you were always going to campaign for Remain.
You know it, I know it, we all know it.
I don't criticize you for supporting Remain or campaigning for it but this whole pantomime that you've been 'persuaded' is pretty tawdry.
The thin that is getting me about the polling is that there's no discernable long term trend.
In the IndyRef there was a long term trend towards Yes that hit a discernable speed bump when Salmond bollocksed up the first debate and then accelerated when he won the second.
With EURef it's all rather noise and no signal. I don't think much is changing but I don't know what the status quo is, apart from what my gut tells me.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thing discussed earlier but I honestly really struggle to imagine the mind set of someone who thought the EU in its current form was a good idea. I can very easily understand the mind set of someone who thought that it was not great but all the alternatives were worse and not worth the disruption. But EU = good? I mean, seriously?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
He had no intention of winning meaningful reform, and you know it. He didn't even try. He just thought Fuck it, I can win a referendum anyway, so I'll come back with any old crap and the stupid voters will buy it.
The worst of it is, he is probably right. In the short term. In the long term he is wrecking the Tory party.
How you can support this grotesque charade, even canvass for it, utterly bewilders me. You're like the butler in Remains of the Day who loyally supports his Hitler-appeasing Master, despite all evidence that the man is not worth a moral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all?
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
The EC.
I think you've just exposed the trend and yourself.
You'll be campaigning for the single currency and ever closer union when the time comes - after a certain amount of 'undecideness' and then being 'persuaded' by some establishment line.
Like this time.
When you were 'persuaded' to vote Remain by George Osborne's economic arguments and 'persuaded' to campaign by the threat of Liam Fox.
Really ? Liam Fox ??? Is that the best justification you can come up with ?
You were always going to vote Remain and you were always going to campaign for Remain.
You know it, I know it, we all know it.
I don't criticize you for supporting Remain or campaigning for it but this whole pantomime that you've been 'persuaded' is pretty tawdry.
That's the biggest load of bollocks you've ever posted on PB, and remember you're the idiot a while back accused me of condoning child abuse for political advantage.
You eventually apologised for being wrong on that, and you'll eventually apologise on this.
The thin that is getting me about the polling is that there's no discernable long term trend.
In the IndyRef there was a long term trend towards Yes that hit a discernable speed bump when Salmond bollocksed up the first debate and then accelerated when he won the second.
With EURef it's all rather noise and no signal. I don't think much is changing but I don't know what the status quo is, apart from what my gut tells me.
Having aired most of the EU issues and them being denied/waved off by "the great and the good", there are a lot of armed mines lined up ahead for the EU issue to set off in the next few years, or maybe months.
"oh dear Mr PM we have this ruling from europe to ....give votes to prisoners and you must pay some prisoners compensation for denying the right to vote.... etc etc" Multiply by a hundred other examples for many newspapers to go after.
That kind of small-scale issue isn't going to topple governments or even ministers. It's just an Express headline. What would set the cat among the pigeons is: * the EU somehow forces us to adopt the Euro * the EU somehow forces us to abandon trial by jury * the EU uses its army to invade us all of which have been predicted on this forum, of course.
I disagree. It is the small stuff of principle when our Government is held up in ridicule by the people as completely incapable of governing in an area of law that the people regard as part of being Britain. For example the Queen was openly mocked for failing to read the mood of the nation over Diana and it created a crisis out of a car accident.
The Queen isn't a politician, has no power and doesn't run anything. One can be for or against her without it affecting one's vote.
What I'm saying is just the obvious (I think): elections are decided by big issues that affect people's daily lives, not stuff like votes for prisoners.
Yes - I'm very surprised by the contrast between the passionate espousal of sides on this board, and the apparent lack of concern around me. I don't remember having heard anyone mention the referendum.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thin....?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
He had no intention of winning meaningful reform, and you know it. He didn't even try. He just thought Fuck it, I can win a referendum anyway, so I'll come back with any old crap and the stupid voters will buy it.
The worst of it is, he is probably right. In the short term. In the long term he is wrecking the Tory party.
How you can support this grotesque charade, even canvass for it, utterly bewilders me. You're like the butler in Remains of the Day who loyally supports his Hitler-appeasing Master, despite all evidence that the man is not worth a moral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all? Give me your take on it.
He went in asking for a few minor things and walked out with a vat exemption on tampax, a £50m saving on welfare and gave up our veto on Eurozone integration.....
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
Not exactly.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
The 'bastards' didn't bring down Major. He did that all on his own.
Major as Chancellor took us into the ERM and the rest was a complete f**k up by him then and as PM.
And yet no government has ever inherited as good a situation as in 1997... The Major government did a lot right.
It's all getting a bit moody in here. It must be very frustrating for PB Tory-Leavers to be on the receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics for once, but lashing out at TSE does nothing. In fact you only elevate him as a site celebrity.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This may be back to the 2 nations thin....?
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I was quite content to sit out this referendum campaign, but I was moved into campaign for remain the moment people started openly talking about using the referendum to topple Dave and replace him with someone like Liam Fucking Fox.
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
The way your beloved leader has gone about this referendum, especially with his fake and specious renegotiation, has ensured that the Tory party will precisely repeat the wars of the Major era.
He had no intention of winning meaningful reform, and you know it. He didn't even try. He just thought Fuck it, I can win a referendum anyway, so I'll come back with any old crap and the stupid voters will buy it.
The worst of it is, he is probably right. In the short term. In the long term he is wrecking the Tory party.
How you can support this grotesque charade, even canvass for it, utterly bewilders me. You're like the butler in Remains of the Day who loyally supports his Hitler-appeasing Master, despite all evidence that the man is not worth a moral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all? Give me your take on it.
He went in asking for a few minor things and walked out with a vat exemption on tampax, a £50m saving on welfare and gave up our veto on Eurozone integration.....
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
You're a fucking horizontal collaborator, is what you are. You pulled down your knickers and bent over for the Gauleiter. And for what. A stick of butter. New pantyhose.
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
TSE is a Heathite - his stated political inspirations are Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
Was never that keen on Heseltine.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
The EC.
I think you've just exposed the trend and yourself.
You'll be campaigning for the single currency and ever closer union when the time comes - after a certain amount of 'undecideness' and then being 'persuaded' by some establishment line.
Like this time.
When you were 'persuaded' to vote Remain by George Osborne's economic arguments and 'persuaded' to campaign by the threat of Liam Fox.
Really ? Liam Fox ??? Is that the best justification you can come up with ?
You were always going to vote Remain and you were always going to campaign for Remain.
You know it, I know it, we all know it.
I don't criticize you for supporting Remain or campaigning for it but this whole pantomime that you've been 'persuaded' is pretty tawdry.
That's the biggest load of bollocks you've ever posted on PB, and remember you're the idiot a while back accused me of condoning child abuse for political advantage.
You eventually apologised for being wrong on that, and you'll eventually apologise on this.
No one will apologise to you TPD. Your trust ratings are about as healthy as Cameron's.
I only hope to God this thread is far from representative of the country at large.
I don't really care whether we vote in or out. That issue is singularly unimportant to me.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
And that level of understanding is exactly the problem and is why the Leave campaign is in such disarray and some braveheart posters on here are making such dicks of themselves.
Its a lot better than your level of understanding.
It's all getting a bit moody in here. It must be very frustrating for PB Tory-Leavers to be on the receiving end of Cameron's bully boy tactics for once, but lashing out at TSE does nothing. In fact you only elevate him as a site celebrity.
I can - kind of - comprehend a Tory reluctantly voting REMAIN, with teeth clenched and nose pegged.
But to go out and canvass for EU membership.
It's like discovering your hitherto pleasant neighbour is not just a collaborator, but is actually fucking a Gestapo officer.
You do realise some people think remaining is a good idea. Why should it be shocking that they canvas for what they believe in?
This
TSE gets a buzz from political campaigning. The reason for campaigning is not the main point. Fair enough. We all have hobbies and some are more self destructive.
I w
Was the moment I decided 'Tory Leavers delenda est'
I find it hard it hard to understand how someone can adore a politician as you do Cameron. I guess it must be like the way some people once viewed Blair.
It's not adoration, Dave has many flaws, but I'm not content to sit back and see the Tory Eurosceptics do a rerun of 1993 to 2005, because that was a great time to be a Tory.
Themoral cent.
Do you understand anything whatsoever about the renegotiation? At all?
Give me your take on it.
Yes. My take is that it was a lie from beginning to end, a complete fraud and pantomime, as Douglas Carswell correctly predicted in his resignation speech.
"No one cheered David Cameron more loudly at the time of his Bloomberg speech, when he finally accepted the case for a referendum. He would, he claimed, negotiate a fundamentally new relationship with the EU, and put it to the people in 2017; In or Out.
But there’s been no detail since. That’s because there isn’t any...
Cameron's advisers have made it clear that they seek a new deal that gives them just enough to persuade enough voters to vote to stay in. It’s not about change in our national interest. It’s all about not changing things.
Once I realised that, my position in the Conservative party became untenable"
I hoped, at the time, that he was wrong. But he was right.
Comments
1. GE2010 - he won most seats against Brown, he did not win a majority, the manifesto was a mess and the campaign was disjointed and badly delivered with few core messages and a lack of testing the messages with research.
2. Juncker - Cameron opposed and lost that appointment. Completely outvoted.
3. The referendum - Cameron was dragged kicking and screaming by major back bench rebellions to agree it.
As to tactics to win the referendum, Harold Wilson won his without breaking his party apart or having a rebellion against his premiership. It is even arguable that Cameron's act of fronting the campaign has lost more votes than he gained.
If Leave hasn't got a solution to immigration, it has nothing.
Leave need to play the one chance in a lifetime card. The poor will be stuck and screwed because they can't afford to move; the wealthy don't give a toss because they can always buy their way out of it.
* the EU somehow forces us to adopt the Euro
* the EU somehow forces us to abandon trial by jury
* the EU uses its army to invade us
all of which have been predicted on this forum, of course.
Whats the news from the Tory civil war ? Incoherent Tories piss money up the wall ? George Osborne is Rolf harris love child ? Dave Cameon had sex with IDS ?
Do post more there's nothing we non tories love better than Tories at WAR !
2. I've seen others further ahead at times as well.
It will not be Fox.
The natural consequence is for his to campaign for Remain and in future to support the single currency and other forms of ever closer union.
I'm surprised why anyone finds that surprising.
EUgov
Hilary Clinton
Donald Trump
Jeremy Corbyn.
So I don't think you should be so sanguine about Fox. He might just come through the middle as an outsider in a nasty 3 cornered contest.
And I'd never join the single currency.
I'm just following the lead of Margaret Thatcher, she quite passionately campaigned for the UK to remain in the EC.
The alternative seems to be Juncker though... and he's a fruitcake.
the bastards brought down Major because they wanted a referendum
If they bring down Cameron for giving them a referendum they then lost, they are not exactly in a position of strength
EFTA/EEA eliminates the economic disadvantage arguments for leaving. It eliminates the supremacy of the ECJ and any possibility of Euro membership. It dramatically reduces the annual bill to the UK.
And it does this without disadvantaging British businesses.
EU took the lead from the start
EU took the lead from the start
And I don't know why
No I don't know why
It was clear in coming here
I must have put the skin before the heart
Before the heart
But we need PR as a matter of urgency so that we all no longer have to pretend we agree with each other.
Not really
And all the evidence from Con Home and indeed this website is that there are plenty of Con activists who are a carbon copy of the Lab activists who elected Corbyn.
The reason some people support Cameron is not because they "love" him or any such thing - it's because they recognise he is the best chance of this country continuing to be run in a mainstream, pragmatic, sensible way - and he minimises the chances of someone who would do really serious damage getting in to power.
And his electoral record up to now is outstanding. Who in 2005 after Con had won less than 200 seats for the third GE in a row would have dreamt there would have been a Con Government from 2010 to 2020?
Of course, people get bored and frustrated and always want something better so they'll get sick of him in the end - but his template is the best bet - and unless you want Corbyn then the best option will be "Continuity Cameron" - which will mean Theresa May.
Not mentioned at all in the 8 minutes is the fact that the Labour Party has 80 of the 120 councillors and has run the council for the past 4 years.
What we 'need' are more ideas driven parties, but FPTP mitigates against allowing them to develop. Instead of UKIP we ought to have a party like the AfD but they would get smothered in our current regime of bland big-tent consensus politics.
And when it goes wrong, there will be an incessant supply of Guardian readers/columnists telling the UK how heartless and terrible we are if we deny them free care.
We are the 5th largest economy in the world; we can afford to give it away.
you have the credibility of a "reformed" french alcoholic in a recently emptied wine cellar
What I'm saying is just the obvious (I think): elections are decided by big issues that affect people's daily lives, not stuff like votes for prisoners.
Cameron: Exit Leftie being discusssed
His latest post of Oxbridge Tory sheep shagging Etonians drown in a tsunami of their own semen was a classic
at least I think that's what he meant
A: Add Andrea Leadsom to the top 3 of its campaigners.
PS Boris is almost twice as trusted as Cameron.
I think you've just exposed the trend and yourself.
You'll be campaigning for the single currency and ever closer union when the time comes - after a certain amount of 'undecideness' and then being 'persuaded' by some establishment line.
Like this time.
When you were 'persuaded' to vote Remain by George Osborne's economic arguments and 'persuaded' to campaign by the threat of Liam Fox.
Really ? Liam Fox ??? Is that the best justification you can come up with ?
You were always going to vote Remain and you were always going to campaign for Remain.
You know it, I know it, we all know it.
I don't criticize you for supporting Remain or campaigning for it but this whole pantomime that you've been 'persuaded' is pretty tawdry.
In the IndyRef there was a long term trend towards Yes that hit a discernable speed bump when Salmond bollocksed up the first debate and then accelerated when he won the second.
With EURef it's all rather noise and no signal. I don't think much is changing but I don't know what the status quo is, apart from what my gut tells me.
Give me your take on it.
If Corbyn came out for Leave, it would be all over.
She's the next PM, isn't she?
TSE You are fighting the last referendum. A typical mistake they say of failed Generals....
You eventually apologised for being wrong on that, and you'll eventually apologise on this.
Oh, sorry, a doctor from Sheffield
Boris? I wouldn't vote for him. He's a TV panellist, not a PM.
However if he had come out for Leave, he might have won the referendum but lost control of his party. Now where have I heard that before..
Ironic really isn't it.
Not Safe For TSE
I don't really care whether we vote in or out. That issue is singularly unimportant to me.
What I *do* care about is having a Tory government, on the basis that it's the closest thing to Libertarianism we are ever likely to get.
The idea that the party will continue its self destructive fracturing is a *far* bigger threat than any result of 'in' or 'out'. But who, who is speaking up, Niemolleresque, for me and my ilk?!?
Quantum polling is not available yet.