If Remain argued for a federal Europe in public then at least they're arguing for what they really want. Instead we're treated to absolute tripe about "In Europe but not run by Europe".
The one point I would disagree with is that most of those advocating REMAIN do not want that. But they are fellow travellers on a journey with those who do want a federal Europe and they choose not to notice the ultimate destination.
Except that is not correct, there are other nations in the EU who are outside the Eurozone, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary, there may well be an inner core of the EU focused particularly on its founder members (not us) and those in the Euro (also not us) but we are not part of that inner core, never have been and never will be
So you are advocating that Sweden, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary should all break their treaty commitment to join the Single Currency?
But anyway that is not the point. The point is that the current arrangement of Eurozone and non-Eurozone countries cannot continue. The need for a political union means that unless we are going to have a two complete sets of EU institutions, which is utterly impractical, at some point soon there is going to have to be a reckoning with the non Eurozone countries forced to accept effective rule by the Eurozone countries.
Denmark has no such treaty commitment, Sweden has voted against the Euro comfortably in any referenda on the subject and Poland and Hungary are led by leaders more like Farage than Cameron at the moment.
I think ultimately there will have to be a clear division between the Eurozone and non Eurozone, even Juncker has accepted there may be an EU 'outer core' which is not in the Euro and the Federalist core
Yes, the EU already has clear plans for dividing itself into fast and slow lanes. The latter will be called 'Associate members'.
But -
1) these Associate members will not have a looser relationship with the EU than they do now.
2) they will be expected to move towards joining the federal core, just at a slower pace.
3) they will also include the EEA countries - yes that's right, the EU wants to fold them in also.
The Prime Minister went to Iceland recently and, remarkably, was arguing to the Icelanders to join as Associate members.
I see in the Times that Osborne is making a speech about "the economic cost of leaving".
Now why would REMAIN think that a person with the image of something unpleasant that one has trod in, is a good idea? Anything to do with the fact that the person deciding these things is Mr G. Osborne?
Stupid is as stupid does. Does Will Straw Exec Director of BSE actually take any decisions and what about his Chairman Lord Rose?
If Remain argued for a federal Europe in public then at least they're arguing for what they really want. Instead we're treated to absolute tripe about "In Europe but not run by Europe".
The one point I would disagree with is that most of those advocating REMAIN do not want that. But they are fellow travellers on a journey with those who do want a federal Europe and they choose not to notice the ultimate destination.
Except that is not correct, there are other nations in the EU who are outside the Eurozone, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary, there may well be an inner core of the EU focused particularly on its founder members (not us) and those in the Euro (also not us) but we are not part of that inner core, never have been and never will be
So you are advocating that Sweden, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary should all break their treaty commitment to join the Single Currency?
But anyway that is not the point. The point is that the current arrangement of Eurozone and non-Eurozone countries cannot continue. The need for a political union means that unless we are going to have a two complete sets of EU institutions, which is utterly impractical, at some point soon there is going to have to be a reckoning with the non Eurozone countries forced to accept effective rule by the Eurozone countries.
Denmark has no such treaty commitment, Sweden has voted against the Euro comfortably in any referenda on the subject and Poland and Hungary are led by leaders more like Farage than Cameron at the moment.
I think ultimately there will have to be a clear division between the Eurozone and non Eurozone, even Juncker has accepted there may be an EU 'outer core' which is not in the Euro and the Federalist core
Please don't misquote me. I didn't mention Denmark because they and the UK have opt outs.
And it doesn't matter what the rest want if you believe treaties should be abided by. They have signed up for the single currency and the only way they can avoid it long term is by breaking their treaty commitments. Effectively rejecting the TFEU.
Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!
Amused to see Leavers defending Boris for something he did say, whilst continuing to attack Cameron for something he didn't say.
They are out-natting the Nats in their partisan extremism.
Nope. Yet more misleading garbage from you Richard.
1. Plenty of Leavers - in fact most of them on here - have been attacking Boris for what he said. 2. Cameron only changed what he was planning to say in response to the bad reaction from the press.
Yes I know you did not include Denmark in your list but that does not mean their opt-out can be ignored. In reality the others will effectively reject their Treaty commitments, none of their governments have shown the slightest inclination to join the Euro and given its recent history I doubt they ever will!
You do understand what happens legally if you reject treaty commitments don't you? It means that the treaty falls. So you are suggesting that the treaty that forms the basis for the whole of the EU should now be ignored or rejected by several of its signatories?
If online polls were junk, people wouldn't bother to commission them. Since 2002, when people began commissioning them, neither online, nor phone polls, have proved obviously superior to the other. But some firms, such as ICM, Yougov, Ipsos MORI, Opinium, have a good track record.
For non-GE results the online polls have had some good results. Last time I checked this was not a GE. Am I right?
It depends on the question TCPB.
If the question is, 'who was better at forecasting Tory/Lab in 2015?", then the answer is phones.
If the question is, 'who was better at forecasting Right/Left in 2015?", then the answer is internet.
The next question becomes, "Is the referendum a contest between Tory and Labour, or is it a contest between left and right?"
It has become a contest between Right and Left. If Remain wins, that's a victory for the Left. If Leave wins, that's a victory for the Right. 75% of Remain voters are left wing, and a similar proportion of Leave voters are right wing.
Cameron and Osborne have chosen to side with the Left against the Right.
Yep - all those terrible lefties in the City, the IMF, the CBI, the military and the intelligence services; not to mention the Tory PM, Chancellor, Home Secretary and various others.
The CBI were in favour of central planning and opposed the Thatcher reforms. Of course they are lefties.
If you seriously believe that you have a very distorted view of the world.
The CBI are supporters of the corporate state.
They are not lefties.
The old left-right split has increasingly little meaning.
Instead the division is increasingly between supporters of the corporate state / the establishment / the status quo and various kinds of 'populism'.
Corbyn and Trump are examples of this 'populism' as is the Leave campaign.
If online polls were junk, people wouldn't bother to commission them. Since 2002, when people began commissioning them, neither online, nor phone polls, have proved obviously superior to the other. But some firms, such as ICM, Yougov, Ipsos MORI, Opinium, have a good track record.
For non-GE results the online polls have had some good results. Last time I checked this was not a GE. Am I right?
It depends on the question TCPB.
If the question is, 'who was better at forecasting Tory/Lab in 2015?", then the answer is phones.
If the question is, 'who was better at forecasting Right/Left in 2015?", then the answer is internet.
The next question becomes, "Is the referendum a contest between Tory and Labour, or is it a contest between left and right?"
It has become a contest between Right and Left. If Remain wins, that's a victory for the Left. If Leave wins, that's a victory for the Right. 75% of Remain voters are left wing, and a similar proportion of Leave voters are right wing.
Cameron and Osborne have chosen to side with the Left against the Right.
Yep - all those terrible lefties in the City, the IMF, the CBI, the military and the intelligence services; not to mention the Tory PM, Chancellor, Home Secretary and various others.
The CBI were in favour of central planning and opposed the Thatcher reforms. Of course they are lefties.
If you seriously believe that you have a very distorted view of the world.
The CBI are supporters of the corporate state.
They are not lefties.
The old left-right split has increasingly little meaning.
Instead the division is increasingly between supporters of the corporate state / the establishment / the status quo and various kinds of 'populism'.
Corbyn and Trump are examples of this 'populism' as is the Leave campaign.
How about you change "populism" to "growing awareness that the present system benefits those that have but not the ordinary folks that do". Not just in the UK.
Maybe the little people are starting to wake up to the idea that the sort of crony capitalism that we now have is not in their best interests. Perhaps this is manifesting itself in a disengagement with the political process as far as traditional parties are concerned and, more recently, voters being more inclined to vote for so-called populists.
If online polls were junk, people wouldn't bother to commission them. Since 2002, when people began commissioning them, neither online, nor phone polls, have proved obviously superior to the other. But some firms, such as ICM, Yougov, Ipsos MORI, Opinium, have a good track record.
For non-GE results the online polls have had some good results. Last time I checked this was not a GE. Am I right?
It depends on the question TCPB.
If the question is, 'who was better at forecasting Tory/Lab in 2015?", then the answer is phones.
If the question is, 'who was better at forecasting Right/Left in 2015?", then the answer is internet.
The next question becomes, "Is the referendum a contest between Tory and Labour, or is it a contest between left and right?"
It has become a contest between Right and Left. If Remain wins, that's a victory for the Left. If Leave wins, that's a victory for the Right. 75% of Remain voters are left wing, and a similar proportion of Leave voters are right wing.
Cameron and Osborne have chosen to side with the Left against the Right.
No, Cameron and Osborne are not on the left, and nor are all the company bosses that make up Renain. It is Farage and Leave who decided to ignore the left wing case for exiting the EU, and that is why they will lose.
Comments
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/eu-referendum-more-than-300-business-leaders-back-a-brexit/
They are out-natting the Nats in their partisan extremism.
NEW PRO-REMAIN THREAD
But -
1) these Associate members will not have a looser relationship with the EU than they do now.
2) they will be expected to move towards joining the federal core, just at a slower pace.
3) they will also include the EEA countries - yes that's right, the EU wants to fold them in also.
The Prime Minister went to Iceland recently and, remarkably, was arguing to the Icelanders to join as Associate members.
1. Plenty of Leavers - in fact most of them on here - have been attacking Boris for what he said.
2. Cameron only changed what he was planning to say in response to the bad reaction from the press.
So you are comprehensively wrong on both counts.
Instead the division is increasingly between supporters of the corporate state / the establishment / the status quo and various kinds of 'populism'.
Corbyn and Trump are examples of this 'populism' as is the Leave campaign.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/senior-policewoman-suspended-after-spat-with-female-colleague-ov/
https://twitter.com/CityAM/status/731963145044922370
and with that I'll say goodnight.
Maybe the little people are starting to wake up to the idea that the sort of crony capitalism that we now have is not in their best interests. Perhaps this is manifesting itself in a disengagement with the political process as far as traditional parties are concerned and, more recently, voters being more inclined to vote for so-called populists.