Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
No, immigration and sovereignty are very strong points for Leave. Remain obviously should keep the debate away from these if they can.
But to be able to fully leverage those for maximum votes Leave must reassure on the economy.
There are very many swing voters who want to vote Leave for those reasons but are very worried about what it might mean for their wallets. Incorrectly, IMHO.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
What a mess Morgan is making of her brief. And to think she was talking about running for the leadership. Cameron needs to reshuffle her out of the way as soon as EU result is in (if he's still there).
Indeed. I have always felt she was the least talented of a not particularly prepossessing collection of ministers. If Cameron is obsessing about identity politics there are far more able women languishing on his back benches, better to get one of them in and get rid of the housetrained Morgan as soon as possible.
And a good thing too. It was a crap plan. The whole point of fostering excellence driven by parental choice turned on it's head by central government diktat.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
Maybe fathers want to earn more and go the extra mile at work because they feel financially responsible, whereas mothers prefer to prioritise time with their children over work?
I also wonder whether the gender gap comparison actually takes into account people working different jobs, or whether it actually compares like-with-like...
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
Worth noting the onset of civil war as Rome's national sport did not enhance its longevity in the West.
Playing devil's advocate, both England and the USA came out of their civil wars and then stepped up a gear. Even the Roman Empire survived centuries after it started indulging in intermittent civil wars.
And a good thing too. It was a crap plan. The whole point of fostering excellence driven by parental choice turned on it's head by central government diktat.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
No, immigration and sovereignty are very strong points for Leave. Remain obviously should keep the debate away from these if they can.
But to be able to fully leverage those for maximum votes Leave must reassure on the economy.
There are very many swing voters who want to vote Leave for those reasons but are very worried about what it might mean for their wallets. Incorrectly, IMHO.
Its difficult to reassure on the economy when Leave is the 'stand on our own two feet' option and the country prefers its addiction to the magic money tree.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
I've no idea why anybody (except a politician) thinks that businesses need any 'help' from the govt. However difficult govts make it to trade, deals will still be done. It is daft to claim that the UK businesses will be stuck until govt ministers ride to the rescue with a trade deal.
To see how silly it is, look at countries where there is a formal trade embago. They can still get whatever they want. Maybe not in the same quantities, and not at the same price. But any cursory inspection would inform you that that, in the real world, the price premium is actually very small.
No businesses, much less well respcted UK firms, are dependent on govt-organised trade deals.
Taken to the other extreme look at the continental system during the Napoleonic Wars where it was French policy to deliberately exclude British trade from the whole of Europe in an attempt to strangle us into submission.
What happened?
We found alternate colonial and global markets, black markets continued to import into Europe, and we continued to grow strongly as an economy.
There is nothing in these warnings of economic doom if we Leave.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
No though teams working on dog and cat food are expected to try the product
In his defence he called some things very right, and he made that promise a long long way in advance of the election, when they might have foundered, his problem was not reassessing in the next 2+ years.
And a good thing too. It was a crap plan. The whole point of fostering excellence driven by parental choice turned on it's head by central government diktat.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
Osborne is a believer in 'the gentleman in Whitehall knows best' with him being the gentleman.
Now fellow PBers would anyone here actually employ Osborne themselves and in what capacity ?
Because Cameron seems perfectly happy for Osborne to meddle in anything and everything the government does.
Its not working well.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Don't conflate Ossie's budgets with education policy. The Tory MPs who are revolting are under pressure from their councillors who will lose their extra-duty allowances in local education.
And a good thing too. It was a crap plan. The whole point of fostering excellence driven by parental choice turned on it's head by central government diktat.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
Perhaps the US-UK deal could be called Tradey-McTradeface?
A rare chance for me to comment after a frantic week on here but perhaps less so beyond the confines of pb.com.
As someone inclining toward LEAVE, nothing I've heard in the past week has altered my view one iota. Osborne's weak economic argument - "we might be £4,300 less well off if we LEAVE" was for me ineffectual drivel. Likewise President Obama's intervention at the end of the week - predictable, as I said at the time.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. There are no guarantees whichever way you vote, none at all, Few saw the 2008 global financial crisis coming and those who did were scorned. I'm uncertain about the economic prospects over the next 12-24 months, to be as positive as Osborne and the Treasury about 2030 is the height of over confidence.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. Obama can terrify you with prospects of isolation and wrangling over trade deals which apparently will leave us dark, cold and starving. The fact that trade deals can be concluded quickly and easily is of course not mentioned because that's not part of the narrative.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. The problem is it doesn't matter that much to me. I'm much more concerned about the more nebulous concepts of democracy, freedom, representation and the like. Now, they don't put food on the table perhaps but they are important. A lot has been talked about our history but the essence of that has been the definition of the relationship between individual and State and how the British have always resisted centralised unrepresentative control of our affairs whether that be via autocratic monarch or foreign despot.
As for what has been and will be said, the rhetoric used in election campaigns and referendum is just that - when confronted by the reality of the verdict, that language will instantly change. It's politics to say the things that will strengthen your side and weaken the other side - doesn't make it true. I no more believe Obama's comments than I do Osborne's. If we vote LEAVE, June 24th will all be about compromise, "respecting the will of the people" and the like.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
And a good thing too. It was a crap plan. The whole point of fostering excellence driven by parental choice turned on it's head by central government diktat.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
Osborne is a believer in 'the gentleman in Whitehall knows best' with him being the gentleman.
Now fellow PBers would anyone here actually employ Osborne themselves and in what capacity ?
Because Cameron seems perfectly happy for Osborne to meddle in anything and everything the government does.
Its not working well.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Don't conflate Ossie's budgets with education policy. The Tory MPs who are revolting are under pressure from their councillors who will lose their extra-duty allowances in local education.
It's in line with Conservative philosophy to object to the abolition of parent governors and centralised control of schools.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
And a good thing too. It was a crap plan. The whole point of fostering excellence driven by parental choice turned on it's head by central government diktat.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
Osborne is a believer in 'the gentleman in Whitehall knows best' with him being the gentleman.
Now fellow PBers would anyone here actually employ Osborne themselves and in what capacity ?
Because Cameron seems perfectly happy for Osborne to meddle in anything and everything the government does.
Its not working well.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Don't conflate Ossie's budgets with education policy. The Tory MPs who are revolting are under pressure from their councillors who will lose their extra-duty allowances in local education.
Perhaps then Osborne shouldn't have mentioned it in his Budget.
A rare chance for me to comment after a frantic week on here but perhaps less so beyond the confines of pb.com.
As someone inclining toward LEAVE, nothing I've heard in the past week has altered my view one iota. Osborne's weak economic argument - "we might be £4,300 less well off if we LEAVE" was for me ineffectual drivel. Likewise President Obama's intervention at the end of the week - predictable, as I said at the time.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. There are no guarantees whichever way you vote, none at all, Few saw the 2008 global financial crisis coming and those who did were scorned. I'm uncertain about the economic prospects over the next 12-24 months, to be as positive as Osborne and the Treasury about 2030 is the height of over confidence.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. Obama can terrify you with prospects of isolation and wrangling over trade deals which apparently will leave us dark, cold and starving. The fact that trade deals can be concluded quickly and easily is of course not mentioned because that's not part of the narrative.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. The problem is it doesn't matter that much to me. I'm much more concerned about the more nebulous concepts of democracy, freedom, representation and the like. Now, they don't put food on the table perhaps but they are important. A lot has been talked about our history but the essence of that has been the definition of the relationship between individual and State and how the British have always resisted centralised unrepresentative control of our affairs whether that be via autocratic monarch or foreign despot.
As for what has been and will be said, the rhetoric used in election campaigns and referendum is just that - when confronted by the reality of the verdict, that language will instantly change. It's politics to say the things that will strengthen your side and weaken the other side - doesn't make it true. I no more believe Obama's comments than I do Osborne's. If we vote LEAVE, June 24th will all be about compromise, "respecting the will of the people" and the like.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
Stodge continuing to make each post count I see. Well put.
A rare chance for me to comment after a frantic week on here but perhaps less so beyond the confines of pb.com.
As someone inclining toward LEAVE, nothing I've heard in the past week has altered my view one iota. Osborne's weak economic argument - "we might be £4,300 less well off if we LEAVE" was for me ineffectual drivel. Likewise President Obama's intervention at the end of the week - predictable, as I said at the time.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. There are no guarantees whichever way you vote, none at all, Few saw the 2008 global financial crisis coming and those who did were scorned. I'm uncertain about the economic prospects over the next 12-24 months, to be as positive as Osborne and the Treasury about 2030 is the height of over confidence.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. Obama can terrify you with prospects of isolation and wrangling over trade deals which apparently will leave us dark, cold and starving. The fact that trade deals can be concluded quickly and easily is of course not mentioned because that's not part of the narrative.
snip
As for what has been and will be said, the rhetoric used in election campaigns and referendum is just that - when confronted by the reality of the verdict, that language will instantly change. It's politics to say the things that will strengthen your side and weaken the other side - doesn't make it true. I no more believe Obama's comments than I do Osborne's. If we vote LEAVE, June 24th will all be about compromise, "respecting the will of the people" and the like.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
"I'm much more concerned about the more nebulous concepts of democracy, freedom, representation and the like."
An entirely honourable position. Suggest you phone Leave up and get them to talk about some of this stuff instead of going on and on about Obama.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
A rare chance for me to comment after a frantic week on here but perhaps less so beyond the confines of pb.com.
As someone inclining toward LEAVE, nothing I've heard in the past week has altered my view one iota. Osborne's weak economic argument - "we might be £4,300 less well off if we LEAVE" was for me ineffectual drivel. Likewise President Obama's intervention at the end of the week - predictable, as I said at the time.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. There are no guarantees whichever way you vote, none at all, Few saw the 2008 global financial crisis coming and those who did were scorned. I'm uncertain about the economic prospects over the next 12-24 months, to be as positive as Osborne and the Treasury about 2030 is the height of over confidence.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. Obama can terrify you with prospects of isolation and wrangling over trade deals which apparently will leave us dark, cold and starving. The fact that trade deals can be concluded quickly and easily is of course not mentioned because that's not part of the narrative.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. The problem is it doesn't matter that much to me. I'm much more concerned about the more nebulous concepts of democracy, freedom, representation and the like. Now, they don't put food on the table perhaps but they are important. A lot has been talked about our history but the essence of that has been the definition of the relationship between individual and State and how the British have always resisted centralised unrepresentative control of our affairs whether that be via autocratic monarch or foreign despot.
As for what has been and will be said, the rhetoric used in election campaigns and referendum is just that - when confronted by the reality of the verdict, that language will instantly change. It's politics to say the things that will strengthen your side and weaken the other side - doesn't make it true. I no more believe Obama's comments than I do Osborne's. If we vote LEAVE, June 24th will all be about compromise, "respecting the will of the people" and the like.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
Yet again you make the most worthwhile contribution on the issue.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300
-----------
Good for you Stodge. Fortunately, you don't have to. That number is a fabrication.
With a liberal trade policy post-Brexit (i.e. real free trade rather than the preferential system we are in now which makes imports more expensive) it is likely the economy will be more efficient and more prosperous in the long term.
This was the foundation of the Liberal Party's economic approach, once upon a time, and it served the UK very well indeed.
It's quite extraordinary that so-called 'liberals' today are arguing for continued protectionism instead - what would the likes of John Bright and William Cobden have said?
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
What is "HMS Anglosphere?". The US and UK security forces work very closely, but otherwise I would expect both countries to act in their own interests.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
No though teams working on dog and cat food are expected to try the product
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
Precisely.
Or more likely we will end up being forced out of the EU in the next decade as it federalizes and starts to impose requirements via QMV which are antithetical to our national well being. We will of course be more integrated by then, and the withdrawal will be more damaging by then. But there are too many loyalists here who are more concerned about their man looking good on TV for a few weeks than the future of their country. Despite all the protestations of "for the good of the country" how many REALLY believe that the PBTories won't find reasons to queue up to support a "Leave" leader's European policy before you can say "hypocrite".
Eurocrats removing the elected governments of Italy and Greece are the killer for me. I still can't quite believe it happened. And in just the last five years. It demonstrates the ruthlessness of the controlling centre. Nothing will deflect them.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
LOL! Ironically the friend who was working on the Bacardi ad was the senior writer on Guinness. He tells the story of how he arrived as a young man from Dublin for an interview at JWT the same day Guinness had warned them the account was at risk because no one in London understood their product . They took him on there and then on nothing but the strength of his accent
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
But every time we quote His Number (artificial and political as it is) we are doing Osborne's work for him.
Eurocrats removing the elected governments of Italy and Greece are the killer for me. I still can't quite believe it happened. And in just the last five years. It demonstrates the ruthlessness of the controlling centre. Nothing will deflect them.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
I estimate that the UK will lose 50% of inbound investment, which will cost 1,000,000 jobs and 12% of GDP if we REMAIN.
Alternatively if we LEAVE then we will have an ever-increasing advantage as countries like Ireland are forced to increase their rates to the EU levels.
Eurocrats removing the elected governments of Italy and Greece are the killer for me. I still can't quite believe it happened. And in just the last five years. It demonstrates the ruthlessness of the controlling centre. Nothing will deflect them.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
I estimate that the UK will lose 50% of inbound investment, which will cost 1,000,000 jobs and 12% of GDP if we REMAIN.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
But every time we quote His Number (artificial and political as it is) we are doing Osborne's work for him.
So let's stop quoting it.
This is going to turn into that episode of Blackadder where Edmund keeps on saying Macbeth instead of the Scottish play isn't it ?
So you don't want anyone to mention the £4,300 figure right ?
Is that right, you don't want me to quote the £4,300 figure.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
But every time we quote His Number (artificial and political as it is) we are doing Osborne's work for him.
So let's stop quoting it.
This is going to turn into that episode of Blackadder where Edmund keeps on saying Macbeth instead of the Scottish play isn't it ?
So you don't want anyone to mention the £4,300 figure right ?
Is that right, you don't want me to quote the £4,300 figure.
Got it, nobody mention the £4,300 figure.
Do you think they will take a cheque or is it cash only?
In a sense it's true - how do you get rid of a bad Commission - but the only realistic remedies involve the EP. Hannan is meeting himself coming backwards.
Given the power the commissioners have, they should be directly elected not appointments for party place men and political failures. There is no chance the public would have put Kinnock or Baroness Ashton in those jobs... or come to that Ken Clarke's and John Major's old bag carrier Lord Hill, supposedly our man to keep an eye on Brussels, excuse me while I die laughing.
Personally, I think they should be *indirectly* elected, in line with the parliamentary traditions across most of Europe: they should all be MEPs, accountable to the parliament and with the College of Commissioners required to hold the confidence of the parliament at all times. Ideally, they should be individually accountable to the electorate too, either through single member constituencies or (more realistically), some form of open list or STV.
My own view on Europe is very 'Westphalian'. For centuries Europe thrived because it was culturally and politically fragmented. People could move to where things were better. This kept European kings on their toes far, far more than the rulers of other continents. There was a healthy competition between nation states and cultures that kept all on their toes to some extent. A free market of ideas in a free market of emigration. This is why Europe was the forge of religious, scientific and political enlightenment and we colonised the world and not the other way around.
But...it was in no single country's interest to let one power get too dominant. Every time one power grew too much the others would coalesce against them - be that against Spain, Sweden, France, Germany or whoever depending on which century you're looking at. The UK has ALWAYS been on the coalescing side. We provided a failsafe 'return to normal competition' function, and without ambition to run Europe ourselves. Our power ambitions looked to the sea. We chose naval power to keep the peace and trade lanes open. We have been the independent restorer to a state of relative powerlessness for despots. There has for a thousand years been a balance of power in Europe between competing states (a good thing!). We have been safe in our island and the 'balancer of the balance' as once famously described. It is never in anyone's interest in Europe to see a single dominant power. That way lies dictatorship, misery and slavery for the masses who don't share the dictator's culture or beliefs.
I'd like us to remain as 'the balancer of the balance'. I'd like to see a Europe with a variety of independent nation states and no single political hegemony emerging to control the rights and freedoms of individuals.
Morning all, a good article (as was the last, by Alistair). Leave need to get on top of the narrative, and probably need to change the faces around this week. More of Gove and Hannan at this stage would be welcome, rather than the blustery Boris. Hannan in particular has a very well reasoned line on democracy and accountability, how we can't control the various European courts and can't kick out politicians we don't like - he even welcomes his own P45 as he's an MEP.
Reforming the UK's election system so that voters can give Hannan the boot would be a simple matter. Just reform the system used for the EP to STV or some kind of open list.
But arguing for the abolition of the EP and at the same time complaining that we "can't kick out politicians we don't like" is contradictory. In a sense it's true - how do you get rid of a bad Commission - but the only realistic remedies involve the EP. Hannan is meeting himself coming backwards.
His argument is that if we leave the EU he will lose his job as a British MEP, rather than abolition of the Parliamen itself. He would rather see a stronger voice for the elected Parliament than the unelected Commissioners.
Of course as #1 on the South of Englasd Tory list there's no other way of kicking Dan Hannan out, which is why party lists are a bad idea.
Eurocrats removing the elected governments of Italy and Greece are the killer for me. I still can't quite believe it happened. And in just the last five years. It demonstrates the ruthlessness of the controlling centre. Nothing will deflect them.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
It's hardly anything new - the fear that Margaret Thatcher would block the Maastricht Treaty was the trigger that saw her removed from office. Admittedly that was at home and entirely part of the democratic process, but those involved were hardly transparent about their motives with the general public...
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
I think everything in the header is correct. A public looking for guidance are going to be guided by the personel on either side as much as the arguments.
The venomous attacks on Obama have made key figures in the Leave camp look unhinged and even borderline racist. Boris and Farage should know the fineries don't matter. What has drifted through the ether is that they have abused Farage and called him 'A Kenyan'.
For those Tories on the Leave side who had fears about sharing a platform with UKIP have just seen their worst fears realised. Boris has made sure of that
Gove goes bread and butter - the HMT 3m more immigrants was a total gift.
Writing in The Times, Mr Gove said: 'The EU response to the migration crisis is a Five Nations free-for-all with an invitation to Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Albania and Turkey to join the Union.
'Because we cannot control our borders - and because our deal sadly does nothing to change this fact - public services such as the NHS will face an unquantifiable strain as millions more become EU citizens and have the right to move to the UK. We cannot guarantee the same access people currently enjoy to healthcare and housing if these trends continue.'
'There is a direct and serious threat to our public services, standard of living and ability to maintain social solidarity if we accept continued EU membership.'
Well the current "access" to 1. Healthcare/NHS and 2. Housing is:
1. Much greater tax (and accumulated debt) burden than 15 years ago (admittedly much gold has gone into providers' bank accounts) ....
2. Young Brit person? Forget it, you'll never be able to afford what your parents could .... house prices have gone off into the stratosphere .... Londoner: "mum, can you gift me £200,000 for a deposit/help with the mortgage?"
Eurocrats removing the elected governments of Italy and Greece are the killer for me. I still can't quite believe it happened. And in just the last five years. It demonstrates the ruthlessness of the controlling centre. Nothing will deflect them.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
I estimate that the UK will lose 50% of inbound investment, which will cost 1,000,000 jobs and 12% of GDP if we REMAIN.
If the EU wish to homogenise corporation tax rates, then expect Ireland to want a referendum on membership too!
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
But every time we quote His Number (artificial and political as it is) we are doing Osborne's work for him.
So let's stop quoting it.
This is going to turn into that episode of Blackadder where Edmund keeps on saying Macbeth instead of the Scottish play isn't it ?
So you don't want anyone to mention the £4,300 figure right ?
Is that right, you don't want me to quote the £4,300 figure.
Got it, nobody mention the £4,300 figure.
You could say the same about 3m jobs, but it actually worked as the number became a laughing stock. We must do the same for £4,300 - a number based on the absurd assumption that membership of the EEA is not better than WTO rules for service firms. That is before we get to the point that the Chancellor is too incompetent to realise 2030 and 2015 are different years. No wonder he can not add up.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
If you promise a quick, beneficial trade deal with the US post-Brexit, don't be surprised if the President of the US gives a view on how likely that is. The Leave side invited Obama's intervention. It's that simple.
Yes he gave a view alright, he lied. He said a deal with us would take ten years when the one with Australia took ten months.
Sorry, HMS Anglosphere, but the Australia trade deal (first mooted 1945) is a red herring - the US was not simultaneously negotiating with a neighbouring block seven times Australia's size.....which is the position the UK would be in......
Oh, and New Zealand's been trying to get a trade deal with the US since 2003.......13 years, and counting.....
LOL. I do love Carlotta's desperate attempts to write off anything that doesn't agree with the Eurofanatic narrative.
I'm guessing that trade takes place between the USA and New Zealand, already.
It was LEAVE that brought up speedy trade deals - not REMAIN - not their fault HMS Anglosphere is holed below the waterline
We already trade successfully with the US without a deal. Australia and South Korea managed to negotiate one in just over a year. The EU still hasn't after five years. Whilst we are in the EU we are at a competitive disadvantage in our most successful market as similar non-EU nations to us have negotiated away tariffs.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
In a sense it's true - how do you get rid of a bad Commission - but the only realistic remedies involve the EP. Hannan is meeting himself coming backwards.
Given the power the commissioners have, they should be directly elected not appointments for party place men and political failures. There is no chance the public would have put Kinnock or Baroness Ashton in those jobs... or come to that Ken Clarke's and John Major's old bag carrier Lord Hill, supposedly our man to keep an eye on Brussels, excuse me while I die laughing.
Personally, I think they should be *indirectly* elected, in line with the parliamentary traditions across most of Europe: they should all be MEPs, accountable to the parliament and with the College of Commissioners required to hold the confidence of the parliament at all times. Ideally, they should be individually accountable to the electorate too, either through single member constituencies or (more realistically), some form of open list or STV.
I could live with that. Ultimately the electorate should be able to kick them out if they are crap.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
When this referendum began, what seems an eternity ago, I was unsure how I would vote. Membership of the EU on a day-to-day basis is pretty much all gain for me, because I am an affluent professional who benefits from the supply of inexpensive domestic help, willing tradesmen and convenient travel that the EU provides. Unlike those whose wages are being undercut by cheap imported labour, or who cannot afford to buy their own homes because of the pressure on housing from unlimited immigration, I have lost nothing.
But I believe in democratic legitimacy, which means paying attention to people who do not have my advantages. So should I go for self-interest, or for political principle? Watching this campaign, with its unscrupulous attempts to bully and terrorise a brave and conscientious electorate, has made up my mind. I shall be voting for Leave.
Janet Daley, the reporter who refused to believe the opinion polls on the eve of the 2015 General Election, unlike .....
For Cut and Paste, listen to Radio Scotland and you may learn something about the named person policy , better than the guff you receive from CCHQ. Though I imagine the BBC Tory affiliate party will make it very difficult for Sturgeon.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I think there's no question that Leave had a bad first week. However, Betfair has overreacted. Leave still has its strengths - more committed supporters in particular. It can still win this two-horse race, especially if turnout is <60%. (I personally don't expect that but it wouldn't be a huge surprise.)
On the other hand Betfair is under-reacting to Boris's serial blundering.
Eurocrats removing the elected governments of Italy and Greece are the killer for me. I still can't quite believe it happened. And in just the last five years. It demonstrates the ruthlessness of the controlling centre. Nothing will deflect them.
There's a long way to go. Voters are generally Eurosceptic. Leave have two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour: sovereignty and immigration.
The sovereignty argument has been fatally wounded by Obama. "We will be free to negotiate our own trade deals" is the cry. "We need the cooperation of the people we just insulted" is the small print.
Immigration is required for post-Brexit economic growth.
So knowing that the "two linked, very strong, easy to understand arguments in their favour" are neither, Gove instead tries "8 WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS!!!!"
And we all know how well that works...
I can't really agree with that - the sovereignty issue hasn't really been argued yet. That one or other country is unwilling to discuss one issue or another does not point to a lack of sovereignty.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
I estimate that the UK will lose 50% of inbound investment, which will cost 1,000,000 jobs and 12% of GDP if we REMAIN.
If the EU wish to homogenise corporation tax rates, then expect Ireland to want a referendum on membership too!
Lots of referenda till they get the correct answer no doubt.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I was in the bar on my last trip back to the UK easing my way down my habitual pint, when a couple of tossers young executives came into the pub. The first walked up to the bar and asked for "Two halves of lager shandy please", after which his mate piped up "...and make mine a weak one!"... how can you have a weak lager shandy, isn't that called lemonade ?
My own view on Europe is very 'Westphalian'. For centuries Europe thrived because it was culturally and politically fragmented. People could move to where things were better. This kept European kings on their toes far, far more than the rulers of other continents. There was a healthy competition between nation states and cultures that kept all on their toes to some extent. A free market of ideas in a free market of emigration. This is why Europe was the forge of religious, scientific and political enlightenment and we colonised the world and not the other way around.
But...it was in no single country's interest to let one power get too dominant. Every time one power grew too much the others would coalesce against them - be that against Spain, Sweden, France, Germany or whoever depending on which century you're looking at. The UK has ALWAYS been on the coalescing side. We provided a failsafe 'return to normal competition' function, and without ambition to run Europe ourselves. Our power ambitions looked to the sea. We chose naval power to keep the peace and trade lanes open. We have been the independent restorer to a state of relative powerlessness for despots. There has for a thousand years been a balance of power in Europe between competing states (a good thing!). We have been safe in our island and the 'balancer of the balance' as once famously described. It is never in anyone's interest in Europe to see a single dominant power. That way lies dictatorship, misery and slavery for the masses who don't share the dictator's culture or beliefs.
I'd like us to remain as 'the balancer of the balance'. I'd like to see a Europe with a variety of independent nation states and no single political hegemony emerging to control the rights and freedoms of individuals.
I see the great plan to turn all schools into Academies is falling apart, as Nicky Morgan U turns.
'The significant departure from the plan announced by George Osborne in his budget speech last month will seek to appease up to 40 Tory rebels who risked defeating the Government's bid to make the change.'
What a mess Morgan is making of her brief. And to think she was talking about running for the leadership. Cameron needs to reshuffle her out of the way as soon as EU result is in (if he's still there).
It was Osborne's announcement and Morgan has not appeared much in the media to sell it. of course if she is unable to stand up to Osborne she is not Leadership material.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
But every time we quote His Number (artificial and political as it is) we are doing Osborne's work for him.
So let's stop quoting it.
This is going to turn into that episode of Blackadder where Edmund keeps on saying Macbeth instead of the Scottish play isn't it ?
So you don't want anyone to mention the £4,300 figure right ?
Is that right, you don't want me to quote the £4,300 figure.
Got it, nobody mention the £4,300 figure.
You could say the same about 3m jobs, but it actually worked as the number became a laughing stock. We must do the same for £4,300 - a number based on the absurd assumption that membership of the EEA is not better than WTO rules for service firms. That is before we get to the point that the Chancellor is too incompetent to realise 2030 and 2015 are different years. No wonder he can not add up.
But last time I looked Leave wanted to quit the EEA as well. The Albanian option....
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
Well quite. Almost every prediction Osborne has made since he became Chancellor has been wrong, usually within three months, and somehow the public are supposed to take his £4,300 prediction seriously, looking 15 years into the future.
But every time we quote His Number (artificial and political as it is) we are doing Osborne's work for him.
So let's stop quoting it.
This is going to turn into that episode of Blackadder where Edmund keeps on saying Macbeth instead of the Scottish play isn't it ?
So you don't want anyone to mention the £4,300 figure right ?
Is that right, you don't want me to quote the £4,300 figure.
Got it, nobody mention the £4,300 figure.
You could say the same about 3m jobs, but it actually worked as the number became a laughing stock. We must do the same for £4,300 - a number based on the absurd assumption that membership of the EEA is not better than WTO rules for service firms. That is before we get to the point that the Chancellor is too incompetent to realise 2030 and 2015 are different years. No wonder he can not add up.
But last time I looked Leave wanted to quit the EEA as well. The Albanian option....
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
"No. The CCCTB is not about tax rates. Member States will continue to decide their own corporate tax rates, as is their sovereign right. What the CCCTB will do, however, is create more transparency with regard to the effective corporate tax situation in Member States, thus creating fairer tax competition within the EU."
1. The team that destroyed Clegg at the AV referendum are now running LEAVE.
2. At present the fight is a completely unbalanced one between the Govt vs LEAVE. The resources and influence are massively loaded in favour of the Govt. Of the 4.5 weeks left for this before purdah, the nations/regional/local elections will eat into at least 1+ weeks of that. We therefore in effect have 3 weeks more Govt propaganda.
3. How will REMAIN perform when the Govt is no longer doing their job for them? Will Straw? The Lib Dems ex Campaign guru? FFS.
4. Do not ignore the fact that Cameron2016 only appeals to a very small minority of the voters. Osborne is toxic. 2/3 of current voters do not support the Conservatives. Half or fewer of current Conservative voters back REMAIN.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I was in the bar on my last trip back to the UK easing my way down my habitual pint, when a couple of tossers young executives came into the pub. The first walked up to the bar and asked for "Two halves of lager shandy please", after which his mate piped up "...and make mine a weak one!"... how can you have a weak lager shandy, isn't that called lemonade ?
Is it any wonder the country is in the state it is , weak weak weak. Explains why snakeoil spivs like Cameron reach the top.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
I am unconvinced that remain are in the lead at all, they might be, they might equally be several points behind. Look at the Austrian election last night to see the current value of polling. All we have to go on is the self-congratulation of a bunch of Cameron loyalists and Tory cut&pasters cheering about all sorts of things that 99% of voters won't have noticed, and most of the few that noticed will care about. They might be right, but there is nothing to support that suggestion at the moment. Lots of metropolitans chattering excitedly to each others and to the papers, which the bulk of the county in the suburbs and shires keeps its own council. It's wide open if you ask me.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I was in the bar on my last trip back to the UK easing my way down my habitual pint, when a couple of tossers young executives came into the pub. The first walked up to the bar and asked for "Two halves of lager shandy please", after which his mate piped up "...and make mine a weak one!"... how can you have a weak lager shandy, isn't that called lemonade ?
A typical shandy is half and half. I know people who would have three quarters lemonade as they're driving but want the taste of the beer etc
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
"The Dream Shall Never Die: 100 Days that Changed Scotland Forever" - Thursday 5th June 2014
The Outers should have consulted Salmond's book. In it he describes his re-action to Obama's intervention which was to tell his aides "good" for "three reasons".
"So we say "Cameron begged for the support. Two America had to fight for their independence whereas we have a democratic opportunity. And three: it is indeed up to the "folks up in Scotland" .... Add "Yes we Can!"
I never thought I would say it Carlotta but yes you are indeed right. Salmond was a master compared to these clowns in the Out campaign.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Back in the 80s my boss attended a board meeting of RJR in NY. Of course they all smoked, as did my boss, so when they all lit up their marlboros he thought it would be ok to get out his B&H. Oops.
No Platform, Safe Spaces, microaggressions, trigger warnings – whatever form it comes in, campus censorship is borne of a barely veiled contempt for students. The NUS’s byzantine regime of speech codes, blacklists and disciplinary policies is fuelled by a view of students as either easily upset babies or goose-steppers in-waiting. Worse still, censorship makes you dumb. Spend half an hour in the NUS echo chamber and you’ll see what I mean. To hone your ideas, you need to be free to argue and test them. To find out about new ones, you need to be free to listen.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Back in the 80s my boss attended a board meeting of RJR in NY. Of course they all smoked, as did my boss, so when they all lit up their marlboros he thought it would be ok to get out his B&H. Oops.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I was in the bar on my last trip back to the UK easing my way down my habitual pint, when a couple of tossers young executives came into the pub. The first walked up to the bar and asked for "Two halves of lager shandy please", after which his mate piped up "...and make mine a weak one!"... how can you have a weak lager shandy, isn't that called lemonade ?
A typical shandy is half and half. I know people who would have three quarters lemonade as they're driving but want the taste of the beer etc
I know. But take half Fosters (which hardly tastes of anything anyway), add half lemonade, and then dilute with more lemonade, is approaching "why bother" territory. )
A rare chance for me to comment after a frantic week on here but perhaps less so beyond the confines of pb.com.
As someone inclining toward LEAVE, nothing I've heard in the past week has altered my view one iota. Osborne's weak economic argument - "we might be £4,300 less well off if we LEAVE" was for me ineffectual drivel. Likewise President Obama's intervention at the end of the week - predictable, as I said at the time.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. Obama can terrify you with prospects of isolation and wrangling over trade deals which apparently will leave us dark, cold and starving. The fact that trade deals can be concluded quickly and easily is of course not mentioned because that's not part of the narrative.
As for what has been and will be said, the rhetoric used in election campaigns and referendum is just that - when confronted by the reality of the verdict, that language will instantly change. It's politics to say the things that will strengthen your side and weaken the other side - doesn't make it true. I no more believe Obama's comments than I do Osborne's. If we vote LEAVE, June 24th will all be about compromise, "respecting the will of the people" and the like.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
You're like an oasis in the desert for Leavers! Unfortunately I suspect your highbrow approach won't be shared by too many others who will worry more about losing £4,300 than the other 'nebulous concepts'. Infact you can be sure that fact will have already been researched as will the choice of '£4,300' as opposed to using a figure per day per week per month or even whether to round the figure up or down.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I was in the bar on my last trip back to the UK easing my way down my habitual pint, when a couple of tossers young executives came into the pub. The first walked up to the bar and asked for "Two halves of lager shandy please", after which his mate piped up "...and make mine a weak one!"... how can you have a weak lager shandy, isn't that called lemonade ?
A typical shandy is half and half. I know people who would have three quarters lemonade as they're driving but want the taste of the beer etc
I know. But take half Fosters (which hardly tastes of anything anyway), add half lemonade, and then dilute with more lemonade, is approaching "why bother" territory. )
Lager Tops at best on a warm day perhaps. Any more than an inch and its wasted.
Comments
There are very many swing voters who want to vote Leave for those reasons but are very worried about what it might mean for their wallets. Incorrectly, IMHO.
Now fellow PBers would anyone here actually employ Osborne themselves and in what capacity ?
Because Cameron seems perfectly happy for Osborne to meddle in anything and everything the government does.
Its not working well.
Meanwhile in what should be his proper job Osborne has borrowed £172bn more than he said he would.
In your names.
Enjoy paying it back.
https://twitter.com/dpjhodges/status/280038576283062273?lang=en-gb
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36126584
Maybe fathers want to earn more and go the extra mile at work because they feel financially responsible, whereas mothers prefer to prioritise time with their children over work?
I also wonder whether the gender gap comparison actually takes into account people working different jobs, or whether it actually compares like-with-like...
I hear he does a good line in wallpaper.
The real argument over sovereignty is one purely of whether the democratic rights of the individual are well respected by the system. Does it respect the rights of the citizen in issues such as Habeas Corpus for example (the one great argument against the EAW). Can the citizen be elected as an independent to the Legislature? Who is really the beneficiary of the centralisation of power, people or corporations?
Hopefully these arguments will be more exposed as the short campaign period takes hold.
There was no mask, and no singing.
What happened?
We found alternate colonial and global markets, black markets continued to import into Europe, and we continued to grow strongly as an economy.
There is nothing in these warnings of economic doom if we Leave.
A rare chance for me to comment after a frantic week on here but perhaps less so beyond the confines of pb.com.
As someone inclining toward LEAVE, nothing I've heard in the past week has altered my view one iota. Osborne's weak economic argument - "we might be £4,300 less well off if we LEAVE" was for me ineffectual drivel. Likewise President Obama's intervention at the end of the week - predictable, as I said at the time.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. There are no guarantees whichever way you vote, none at all, Few saw the 2008 global financial crisis coming and those who did were scorned. I'm uncertain about the economic prospects over the next 12-24 months, to be as positive as Osborne and the Treasury about 2030 is the height of over confidence.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. Obama can terrify you with prospects of isolation and wrangling over trade deals which apparently will leave us dark, cold and starving. The fact that trade deals can be concluded quickly and easily is of course not mentioned because that's not part of the narrative.
If all that matters to you is your economic well being, fine. The problem is it doesn't matter that much to me. I'm much more concerned about the more nebulous concepts of democracy, freedom, representation and the like. Now, they don't put food on the table perhaps but they are important. A lot has been talked about our history but the essence of that has been the definition of the relationship between individual and State and how the British have always resisted centralised unrepresentative control of our affairs whether that be via autocratic monarch or foreign despot.
As for what has been and will be said, the rhetoric used in election campaigns and referendum is just that - when confronted by the reality of the verdict, that language will instantly change. It's politics to say the things that will strengthen your side and weaken the other side - doesn't make it true. I no more believe Obama's comments than I do Osborne's. If we vote LEAVE, June 24th will all be about compromise, "respecting the will of the people" and the like.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300 and out of fear of what Washington might do. REMAIN has pointedly failed to explain their vision of Britain's continued membership of the EU - will we waste the next 40 years carping on the sidelines, trying to get our little opt-outs of this, that and the other while QMV and the move toward economic and political union marches on until one day a British Prime Minister is forced to argue how "it would be in the national interest" if we joined the Euro or signed up to full union with the rest of EuroFed "though the King's position is safe of course".
An entirely honourable position. Suggest you phone Leave up and get them to talk about some of this stuff instead of going on and on about Obama.
Cameron's scorched Earth approach to elections is hugely damaging.
The fact he doesn't know what to do with his victories is tragic.
I'm not prepared to sell my democratic identity for £4,300
-----------
Good for you Stodge. Fortunately, you don't have to. That number is a fabrication.
With a liberal trade policy post-Brexit (i.e. real free trade rather than the preferential system we are in now which makes imports more expensive) it is likely the economy will be more efficient and more prosperous in the long term.
This was the foundation of the Liberal Party's economic approach, once upon a time, and it served the UK very well indeed.
It's quite extraordinary that so-called 'liberals' today are arguing for continued protectionism instead - what would the likes of John Bright and William Cobden have said?
Or more likely we will end up being forced out of the EU in the next decade as it federalizes and starts to impose requirements via QMV which are antithetical to our national well being. We will of course be more integrated by then, and the withdrawal will be more damaging by then. But there are too many loyalists here who are more concerned about their man looking good on TV for a few weeks than the future of their country. Despite all the protestations of "for the good of the country" how many REALLY believe that the PBTories won't find reasons to queue up to support a "Leave" leader's European policy before you can say "hypocrite".
So let's stop quoting it.
I estimate that the UK will lose 50% of inbound investment, which will cost 1,000,000 jobs and 12% of GDP if we REMAIN.
Alternatively if we LEAVE then we will have an ever-increasing advantage as countries like Ireland are forced to increase their rates to the EU levels.
So you don't want anyone to mention the £4,300 figure right ?
Is that right, you don't want me to quote the £4,300 figure.
Got it, nobody mention the £4,300 figure.
But...it was in no single country's interest to let one power get too dominant. Every time one power grew too much the others would coalesce against them - be that against Spain, Sweden, France, Germany or whoever depending on which century you're looking at. The UK has ALWAYS been on the coalescing side. We provided a failsafe 'return to normal competition' function, and without ambition to run Europe ourselves. Our power ambitions looked to the sea. We chose naval power to keep the peace and trade lanes open. We have been the independent restorer to a state of relative powerlessness for despots. There has for a thousand years been a balance of power in Europe between competing states (a good thing!). We have been safe in our island and the 'balancer of the balance' as once famously described. It is never in anyone's interest in Europe to see a single dominant power. That way lies dictatorship, misery and slavery for the masses who don't share the dictator's culture or beliefs.
I'd like us to remain as 'the balancer of the balance'. I'd like to see a Europe with a variety of independent nation states and no single political hegemony emerging to control the rights and freedoms of individuals.
@BarrySheerman: Poor old IDS still hating Cameron for becoming Prime Minister @BBCr4today
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
The venomous attacks on Obama have made key figures in the Leave camp look unhinged and even borderline racist. Boris and Farage should know the fineries don't matter. What has drifted through the ether is that they have abused Farage and called him 'A Kenyan'.
For those Tories on the Leave side who had fears about sharing a platform with UKIP have just seen their worst fears realised. Boris has made sure of that
1. Much greater tax (and accumulated debt) burden than 15 years ago (admittedly much gold has gone into providers' bank accounts) ....
2. Young Brit person? Forget it, you'll never be able to afford what your parents could .... house prices have gone off into the stratosphere .... Londoner: "mum, can you gift me £200,000 for a deposit/help with the mortgage?"
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article73449297.html
Rafael Cruz tied to LHO.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Though I imagine the BBC Tory affiliate party will make it very difficult for Sturgeon.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
On the other hand Betfair is under-reacting to Boris's serial blundering.
When the referendum is won and the backlash comes - and it will. Their heads will be on spikes.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5174_en.htm
I wonder what she's going to say?
https://twitter.com/CountyChamp/status/724311718751428609
2. At present the fight is a completely unbalanced one between the Govt vs LEAVE. The resources and influence are massively loaded in favour of the Govt. Of the 4.5 weeks left for this before purdah, the nations/regional/local elections will eat into at least 1+ weeks of that. We therefore in effect have 3 weeks more Govt propaganda.
3. How will REMAIN perform when the Govt is no longer doing their job for them? Will Straw? The Lib Dems ex Campaign guru? FFS.
4. Do not ignore the fact that Cameron2016 only appeals to a very small minority of the voters. Osborne is toxic.
2/3 of current voters do not support the Conservatives. Half or fewer of current Conservative voters back REMAIN.
At the risk of repeating myself.....It's not as though Obama has never intervened in a UK referendum before - he did, under two years ago. And Salmond delivered a master class in 'shutting it down as an issue'.
'Thank you for your perspective Mr President, but fear not, if (Scotland becomes independent/Britain leaves the EU) the US will still have a reliable friend and ally in (Scotland / the UK). What this illustrates is the panic in the (Better Together/Remain Campaign) and their failure to persuade the voters.
Of course Salmond had a pop at Cameron too, which LEAVE could get a Labour LEAVEr to do, if Boris is only happy attacking 'half-Kenyans'.....
Instead we've had the invective aimed at Obama.......'lame duck, blackmail, irrelevant, meaningless, weird.....heck, when Nigel says you've gone too far, surely its time to listen?
"The Dream Shall Never Die: 100 Days that Changed Scotland Forever" - Thursday 5th June 2014
The Outers should have consulted Salmond's book. In it he describes his re-action to Obama's intervention which was to tell his aides "good" for "three reasons".
"So we say "Cameron begged for the support. Two America had to fight for their independence whereas we have a democratic opportunity. And three: it is indeed up to the "folks up in Scotland" .... Add "Yes we Can!"
I never thought I would say it Carlotta but yes you are indeed right. Salmond was a master compared to these clowns in the Out campaign.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-union-that-students-need/18274#.Vx3BdEcXY-0