Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Back in the 80s my boss attended a board meeting of RJR in NY. Of course they all smoked, as did my boss, so when they all lit up their marlboros he thought it would be ok to get out his B&H. Oops.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
I'm not motivated by the economic shite Roger. I just really, really don't want to see a European superstate emerge. It's against everything we've fought for for hundreds of years:
The continental policy of England [after 1525] was fixed. It was to be pacific, mediating, favourable to a balance which should prevent any power from having a hegemony on the continent or controlling the Channel coasts. The naval security of England and the balance of power in Europe were the two great political principles which appeared in the reign of Henry VIII and which, pursued unwaveringly, were to create the greatness of England
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
Now just think, if Boris had engaged his brain instead of spouting off some rubbish about Obama being some Kenyan crypto fascist Leave would be in a much stronger position having forced Obama to admit he wouldn't recommend joining a political union to the American people or pay $100bn per year to be a part of it.
This is why Boris will never be leader of the Conservatives or PM. He won't even make the final two. I've heard a lot of discontent among the Leave side about his intervention wrt to Obama. Most expected Farage to do it anyway so Boris piling on with the "Britain hating Kenyan" stuff was unnecessary.
Let's remember that Scotty Boy squeals like a piggy when anyone brings up Cameron's Old Etonian and Brasenose College past, or criticises his family wealth and Panamanian tax avoidance.
1. The team that destroyed Clegg at the AV referendum are now running LEAVE.
2. At present the fight is a completely unbalanced one between the Govt vs LEAVE. The resources and influence are massively loaded in favour of the Govt. Of the 4.5 weeks left for this before purdah, the nations/regional/local elections will eat into at least 1+ weeks of that. We therefore in effect have 3 weeks more Govt propaganda.
3. How will REMAIN perform when the Govt is no longer doing their job for them? Will Straw? The Lib Dems ex Campaign guru? FFS.
4. Do not ignore the fact that Cameron2016 only appeals to a very small minority of the voters. Osborne is toxic. 2/3 of current voters do not support the Conservatives. Half or fewer of current Conservative voters back REMAIN.
There is obvious scope for this to be a re-run of GE2015, insofar as were treated to a never-ending supply of "Tories-can't-win" threads supported by headline polling numbers.
In the end, the Tories won and the headline polling numbers were considerably less informative than the detail within.
Leave still have the most likely to vote on their side. The underpinning arguments about 'most important issue' also point to leave.
Remain's demographic base is a similar base to the one that saw Ed Miliband romp home.
We know that certain groups are a bit sheepish with telephone pollsters when it comes to admitting Leave/UKIP type views. The telephones were the least accurate at calling left/right blocs last May - always underscoring the right.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Back in the 80s my boss attended a board meeting of RJR in NY. Of course they all smoked, as did my boss, so when they all lit up their marlboros he thought it would be ok to get out his B&H. Oops.
Not yet, but its on the EUs list of things to ban soon.
"So I gather they think it’s game over. The Bremainers think they have bombed us into submission. They think that we have just seen the turning point in the referendum campaign, and that the British people are so intimidated by these testimonials – American presidents, business leaders, fat cats of every description – " BJ
No Boris. What might have bombed you into submission is YOUR incompetence
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
Obama's threat was as much directed at the Germans as anyone; a nudge that if they don't sign up to TTIP, there's no other game in town. His Berlin trip is an attempt at further persuasion.
Quite a lot of us did, for the same reasons. Just as the UK and the EU are going in different directions, and we should split on amicable terms and wish them good luck, the same is true of Scotland and the rUK. If they could only get their electorate organised to come up with the "right" result, we should wish them bon voyage.
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
1. The team that destroyed Clegg at the AV referendum are now running LEAVE.
2. At present the fight is a completely unbalanced one between the Govt vs LEAVE. The resources and influence are massively loaded in favour of the Govt. Of the 4.5 weeks left for this before purdah, the nations/regional/local elections will eat into at least 1+ weeks of that. We therefore in effect have 3 weeks more Govt propaganda.
3. How will REMAIN perform when the Govt is no longer doing their job for them? Will Straw? The Lib Dems ex Campaign guru? FFS.
4. Do not ignore the fact that Cameron2016 only appeals to a very small minority of the voters. Osborne is toxic. 2/3 of current voters do not support the Conservatives. Half or fewer of current Conservative voters back REMAIN.
There is obvious scope for this to be a re-run of GE2015, insofar as were treated to a never-ending supply of "Tories-can't-win" threads supported by headline polling numbers. In the end, the Tories won and the headline polling numbers were considerably less informative than the detail within. Leave still have the most likely to vote on their side. The underpinning arguments about 'most important issue' also point to leave. Remain's demographic base is a similar base to the one that saw Ed Miliband romp home. We know that certain groups are a bit sheepish with telephone pollsters when it comes to admitting Leave/UKIP type views. The telephones were the least accurate at calling left/right blocs last May - always underscoring the right.
Agreed. The puzzle is why the polling companies do not seem to have completely implemented the lessons. What this website should do is take apart each companies numbers to help inform those that bet on the validity of these polling predictions. Yougov are the more transparent on this.
that the British people are so intimidated by these testimonials – American presidents, business leaders, fat cats of every description – that they now believe the British people will file meekly to the polls in two months time and consent to stay in the EU;
Of course the elites want to remain. They will always have power. The losers are the hundreds of millions of Europeans whose only power is their vote
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Frontex only go in where nations specifically ask for assistance, and the fact that they have to ask for our border force is probably a good thing because it means they don't have their own resources. I'm as much of an EU sceptic as you, but the idea that the Greeks can keep control of their own border without assistance is one that would let in millions more migrants, something which we can all agree is not in anyone's interest.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
That's why the Establishment will never hold another referendum. This vote will be used as carte blanche to submit to full "integration" in the years ahead.
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R4 Women's hour hosted by Jane "sex obsessed" Garvey.... So what is the opening big story they are doing for wimmin? Answer = How many partners have you slept with and is it too many and what is too few? Too much of a gentleman to give a view on why she is always talking about it...
No Boris. What might have bombed you into submission is YOUR incompetence
LEAVE's continued failure to learn from their mistakes and blame everyone but themselves for their mis-steps is most encouraging- if they carry on at this rate their second week will be as torrid as their first...
Now just think, if Boris had engaged his brain instead of spouting off some rubbish about Obama being some Kenyan crypto fascist Leave would be in a much stronger position having forced Obama to admit he wouldn't recommend joining a political union to the American people or pay $100bn per year to be a part of it.
This is why Boris will never be leader of the Conservatives or PM. He won't even make the final two. I've heard a lot of discontent among the Leave side about his intervention wrt to Obama. Most expected Farage to do it anyway so Boris piling on with the "Britain hating Kenyan" stuff was unnecessary.
Now just think, if Boris had engaged his brain instead of spouting off some rubbish about Obama being some Kenyan crypto fascist Leave would be in a much stronger position having forced Obama to admit he wouldn't recommend joining a political union to the American people or pay $100bn per year to be a part of it.
This is why Boris will never be leader of the Conservatives or PM. He won't even make the final two. I've heard a lot of discontent among the Leave side about his intervention wrt to Obama. Most expected Farage to do it anyway so Boris piling on with the "Britain hating Kenyan" stuff was unnecessary.
On the nail. He's shown himself to be completely lacking in judgement. What's more this rearguard attempt to exonerate himself is dragging the whole Leave campaign down with him
It seems to me odd that the Leave campaign hasn't made more of the issues arising from where a Remain vote takes us ultimately. Forget the £4,300 crap and short term issues. A vote for Remain is a vote for the Euro, for an EU army, for harmonised cotax rates, for one country, one people, one leader!
No Boris. What might have bombed you into submission is YOUR incompetence
LEAVE's continued failure to learn from their mistakes and blame everyone but themselves for their mis-steps is most encouraging- if they carry on at this rate their second week will be as torrid as their first...
Let's hope so. Although at least Gove is trying to get back onto immigration.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
Yes but that's my point. It (probably) won't be done in a grand fanfare like that, just by steady erosion of UK autonomy in these areas over time.
The EU has always tended to work that way, and, with resistance to grand projects having grown since the 1990s (as shown by various referendum setbacks) that is even more likely to be the case in future. Hence the 'enhanced cooperation' clause in Lisbon and increased reliance on ECJ activism.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on. As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Express "The Defence Secretary, speaking from Salisbury Plain where a joint exercise comprising British and French forces was taking place, hailed the "growing partnership" of European nations on military operations. Mr Fallon said UK military cooperated with their European neighbours on "every front", including British and French pilots flying each other's jets and both nations' ship sailing alongside one another. But he added: "Today we take that partnership to a new level." Describing the new Combined Joint Expeditionary Force (CJEF), a 5,000-strong rapid deployment Anglo-French force designed to respond to humanitarian crises as well as conventional conflicts, he said a "new chapter" had opened that would take cooperation between the two nations "to greater heights"."
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
That's why the Establishment will never hold another referendum. This vote will be used as carte blanche to submit to full "integration" in the years ahead.
Again, if it were something like defence or tax I expect the Tory party would give us an in or out referendum, especially as the gradual take over by Leavers continues (25 years ago 20% of MPs were in the out camp, now it is more than half).
If it were something like handing over defence policy to the EU and the Tories didn't oppose it UKIP may end up romping home at a GE, it's that poisonous a chalice.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
No Boris. What might have bombed you into submission is YOUR incompetence
LEAVE's continued failure to learn from their mistakes and blame everyone but themselves for their mis-steps is most encouraging- if they carry on at this rate their second week will be as torrid as their first...
Let's hope so. Although at least Gove is trying to get back onto immigration.
Yes - he's much better on that (sounds reasonable and not a headbanger) than the economy.
Sharing a platform with an extremist once or twice is unfortunate or having a nutter extremist in the close family, but Khan history is time and time again a similar story. What is the most generous description? Not wanting to upset certain sections of society with extremely dodgy views?
Now just think, if Boris had engaged his brain instead of spouting off some rubbish about Obama being some Kenyan crypto fascist Leave would be in a much stronger position having forced Obama to admit he wouldn't recommend joining a political union to the American people or pay $100bn per year to be a part of it.
This is why Boris will never be leader of the Conservatives or PM. He won't even make the final two. I've heard a lot of discontent among the Leave side about his intervention wrt to Obama. Most expected Farage to do it anyway so Boris piling on with the "Britain hating Kenyan" stuff was unnecessary.
I can't log into facebook at work, is there a summary elsewhere?
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
That's why the Establishment will never hold another referendum. This vote will be used as carte blanche to submit to full "integration" in the years ahead.
Again, if it were something like defence or tax I expect the Tory party would give us an in or out referendum, especially as the gradual take over by Leavers continues (25 years ago 20% of MPs were in the out camp, now it is more than half).
If it were something like handing over defence policy to the EU and the Tories didn't oppose it UKIP may end up romping home at a GE, it's that poisonous a chalice.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
Is the Schengen border our responsibility or those countries that have signed it?
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
That's why the Establishment will never hold another referendum. This vote will be used as carte blanche to submit to full "integration" in the years ahead.
Really? You think that if 45% or so (say) vote to leave the EU, that'll be taken as a desire to push on harder to a federal state? Presumably that's the same reason why there've been all these plans to scrap Holyrood since the Scots backed the Union, then?
In any case, a new Treaty handing over powers would need either a referendum or the repeal of the legislation requiring one.
If the EU weren't angling for an EU Army - I wouldn't be at all bothered. Now they've declared their hand, it'd be folly not to look at such developments through that prism. It's all evidence they'll use to support their agenda.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
Frontex only go in where nations specifically ask for assistance, and the fact that they have to ask for our border force is probably a good thing because it means they don't have their own resources. I'm as much of an EU sceptic as you, but the idea that the Greeks can keep control of their own border without assistance is one that would let in millions more migrants, something which we can all agree is not in anyone's interest.
Frontex is yesterday's man. Last December the proposal was launched by the Commission to replace it with the European Border and Coastguard
Article 77 TFEU Article grants competence to the EU to adopt legislation on a "gradual introduction of an integrated management system for external borders," and article 79 authorizes the EU to enact legislation concerning the repatriation of third-country nationals residing illegally within the EU.
EBCG will have powers to intervene in the border affairs of member states against the will of that country's government, what could possibly go wrong!
In emergency situations such Intervention Teams will be sent to problem areas to bolster security, either at the request of a member state or at the agency's own initiative
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on. As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Express "The Defence Secretary, speaking from Salisbury Plain where a joint exercise comprising British and French forces was taking place, hailed the "growing partnership" of European nations on military operations. Mr Fallon said UK military cooperated with their European neighbours on "every front", including British and French pilots flying each other's jets and both nations' ship sailing alongside one another. But he added: "Today we take that partnership to a new level." Describing the new Combined Joint Expeditionary Force (CJEF), a 5,000-strong rapid deployment Anglo-French force designed to respond to humanitarian crises as well as conventional conflicts, he said a "new chapter" had opened that would take cooperation between the two nations "to greater heights"."
In a world of falling defence spending and increased security risks it makes sense to pool resources with the French, I said as much in my post. We both share the same global aims, both have a nuclear deterrent and both have similarly sized armed forces. Co-operation with the French shouldn't be misconstrued as the start of an EU army though, tbh this would be happening whether we were in or out now that the French are in NATO again.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
We can't be sure of that, though, can we? The current government failed to fully use its opt out from home affairs and justice harmonisation.
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
If it was something like an EU Army or giving up tax competency to Brussels then I expect the Tory party would campaign for a Leave vote and the majority of the country would vote to Leave.
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
That's why the Establishment will never hold another referendum. This vote will be used as carte blanche to submit to full "integration" in the years ahead.
Really? You think that if 45% or so (say) vote to leave the EU, that'll be taken as a desire to push on harder to a federal state?
Yep, absolutely.
Nothing will ever [EVER] be allowed to get in the way of the establishments agenda. The "end game" is the USE and nothing will stop them, bit by bit, in small and incremental steps, submitting us to it.
And Labour are HMG instead... look what Gordon did with Lisbon - so yellow he signed it behind behind closed doors.
The Tories would campaign to give us an In/Out referendum and campaign for Out, or just put Leave on the manifesto and take us out after they win a landslide at the GE. That's how unpopular an EU Army would be.
Now just think, if Boris had engaged his brain instead of spouting off some rubbish about Obama being some Kenyan crypto fascist Leave would be in a much stronger position having forced Obama to admit he wouldn't recommend joining a political union to the American people or pay $100bn per year to be a part of it.
This is why Boris will never be leader of the Conservatives or PM. He won't even make the final two. I've heard a lot of discontent among the Leave side about his intervention wrt to Obama. Most expected Farage to do it anyway so Boris piling on with the "Britain hating Kenyan" stuff was unnecessary.
I can't log into facebook at work, is there a summary elsewhere?
Sky reporting that they haven't seen the full May speech - and neither has Number 10 or Remain
I wonder what she's going to say?
FWIW I think she'll make a strong Remain case, acknowledge the EU's shortcomings/limitations, particularly on immigration, suggest it was she who tightened up Cameron's "deal" on migration, and dogwhistle that she too isn't fully happy with the EU either and might be open to further reform (including a better deal if she were PM) in future.
Frontex only go in where nations specifically ask for assistance, and the fact that they have to ask for our border force is probably a good thing because it means they don't have their own resources. I'm as much of an EU sceptic as you, but the idea that the Greeks can keep control of their own border without assistance is one that would let in millions more migrants, something which we can all agree is not in anyone's interest.
Frontex is yesterday's man. Last December the proposal was launched by the Commission to replace it with the European Border and Coastguard
Article 77 TFEU Article grants competence to the EU to adopt legislation on a "gradual introduction of an integrated management system for external borders," and article 79 authorizes the EU to enact legislation concerning the repatriation of third-country nationals residing illegally within the EU.
EBCG will have powers to intervene in the border affairs of member states against the will of that country's government, what could possibly go wrong!
In emergency situations such Intervention Teams will be sent to problem areas to bolster security, either at the request of a member state or at the agency's own initiative
Don't worry, undermanning is such a problem we couldn't raise any army to contribute. Apache pilots are resigning in droves, and the Navy's scuttled, with the Type 45's broken, and at least one 23 tied up for lack of crew.
Osborne claims he's supporting the services, but that's only by counting war pensions as defence spending.
Agreed. The puzzle is why the polling companies do not seem to have completely implemented the lessons. What this website should do is take apart each companies numbers to help inform those that bet on the validity of these polling predictions. Yougov are the more transparent on this.
I'm finding myself looking at 10/10 numbers on the raw data from each poll and ignoring the headlines because each pollster applies it's own assumptions which may or may not have credibility.
I believe a lot of people will either be disinterested, feel it isn't a critical issue or will be unable to make up their minds as arguments drift over their heads.
Frontex only go in where nations specifically ask for assistance, and the fact that they have to ask for our border force is probably a good thing because it means they don't have their own resources. I'm as much of an EU sceptic as you, but the idea that the Greeks can keep control of their own border without assistance is one that would let in millions more migrants, something which we can all agree is not in anyone's interest.
Frontex is yesterday's man. Last December the proposal was launched by the Commission to replace it with the European Border and Coastguard
Article 77 TFEU Article grants competence to the EU to adopt legislation on a "gradual introduction of an integrated management system for external borders," and article 79 authorizes the EU to enact legislation concerning the repatriation of third-country nationals residing illegally within the EU.
EBCG will have powers to intervene in the border affairs of member states against the will of that country's government, what could possibly go wrong!
In emergency situations such Intervention Teams will be sent to problem areas to bolster security, either at the request of a member state or at the agency's own initiative
Sky reporting that they haven't seen the full May speech - and neither has Number 10 or Remain
I wonder what she's going to say?
FWIW I think she'll make a strong Remain case, acknowledge the EU's shortcomings/limitations, particularly on immigration, suggest it was she who tightened up Cameron's "deal" on migration, and dogwhistle that she too isn't fully happy with the EU either and might be open to further reform (including a better deal if she were PM) in future.
Mrs May doing what's in the interests of Mrs May. Never...
In any case, a new Treaty handing over powers would need either a referendum or the repeal of the legislation requiring one.
No it wouldn't, the loopholes in the EU Act 2011 are legion. Doesn't apply to powers granted as part of an accession treaty, doesn't apply to powers granted by an order given in council, or powers which are a renewal or extension of existing powers (the "flexibility clause"), does not apply to amending treaties taking away UK votes, and finally there is no protected timetabling so the government could push through the change before the referendum is enacted and then claim its hands were tied.
Yes but that's my point. It (probably) won't be done in a grand fanfare like that, just by steady erosion of UK autonomy in these areas over time.
The EU has always tended to work that way, and, with resistance to grand projects having grown since the 1990s (as shown by various referendum setbacks) that is even more likely to be the case in future. Hence the 'enhanced cooperation' clause in Lisbon and increased reliance on ECJ activism.
Moving to an EU Army would require taking defence competencies away from national governments and giving it to Brussels, the chances of that happening are remote and the chances of it succeeding without a single nation wielding their veto is even more remote. They can't incrementally do this, it would have to be a big bang, defence was one of the few things that actually changed from the EU Constitution to the Lisbon Treaty in order to quell French, Dutch and British opposition. If it happens in my lifetime and the Tory party doesn't oppose it I would be very, very surprised.
Free speech as long as we aren't intimidated or dislike the views of the individual. There is a world of difference between BNP or Islamic Extremists and the likes of Germaine Greer or Peter Tatchell.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
Is the Schengen border our responsibility or those countries that have signed it?
Our responsibility is the stability and prosperity of this country. Helping to minimise instability on our border contributes to that end. Schengen is to a large extent a red herring: the migrants are not being put off by the borders.
And Labour are HMG instead... look what Gordon did with Lisbon - so yellow he signed it behind behind closed doors.
The Tories would campaign to give us an In/Out referendum and campaign for Out, or just put Leave on the manifesto and take us out after they win a landslide at the GE. That's how unpopular an EU Army would be.
It would also ensure the FN won in France, the VVD in the Netherlands, etc etc etc.
On topic: Does anyone understand why the Leave campaign is doing absolutely nothing to defend itself against the next torpedo which, in a quite remarkably generous example of British fair play Capn Osborne has already said, he is preparing to fire?
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
Is the Schengen border our responsibility or those countries that have signed it?
I think we'd have to be realistic in that situation, whether or not it is our responsibility, it would be our problem.
Mr. Max, I fear you underestimate the slyness of the EU.
National armies wouldn't end. They'd just be reduced to platoons.
The co-operative European expedition alliance, or whatever bullshit term which means EU Army but avoids saying it, will be additional. And that'll be used as justification for it not needing any kind of vote, because it doesn't end the UK armed forces it 'augments' them.
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
Is the Schengen border our responsibility or those countries that have signed it?
Our responsibility is the stability and prosperity of this country. Helping to minimise instability on our border contributes to that end. Schengen is to a large extent a red herring: the migrants are not being put off by the borders.
On topic: Does anyone understand why the Leave campaign is doing absolutely nothing to defend itself against the next torpedo which, in a quite remarkably generous example of British fair play Capn Osborne has already said, he is preparing to fire?
They're punch-drunk and have no discernible organisational command structure.
On topic: Does anyone understand why the Leave campaign is doing absolutely nothing to defend itself against the next torpedo which, in a quite remarkably generous example of British fair play Capn Osborne has already said, he is preparing to fire?
Leave's "campaign" has been appalling.
It's weird because they've had decades to prepare for this referendum and don't seem to have prepared at all (A bit like the Lib-Dems a voting reform)
But then you know I think a lot of the leading Leave figures (like Farage) are invested in ensuring we remain in the EU anyway...
As I posted on a previous thread - the EU is going to harmonise corporation tax rates - this means that one of the main reasons why the UK attracts so much business will vanish.
Indeed. CCCTB (Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base) was relaunched in the middle of last year, and will be progressing this year, starting in January when it was attached to the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Package . They appear to be aiming for a mandatory minimum 25% corporation tax rate.
Still I am sure Dave and George have thought it all through.
That's a measure we can and would veto. This kind of stuff is like the EU army, it's never going to happen, the eurocrats are just trying it on.
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
Even if we weren't in the EU, isn't there a good chance that we'd be contributing anyway? There's already some kind of NATO mission operating re the migrants and surely it's better for Britain to try to stop the problem at source rather than wait for it to reach Calais?
Is the Schengen border our responsibility or those countries that have signed it?
Our responsibility is the stability and prosperity of this country. Helping to minimise instability on our border contributes to that end. Schengen is to a large extent a red herring: the migrants are not being put off by the borders.
In the end the non EMU nations kicked up a big enough stink that the Germans backed down, a few were looking to withhold regular budget contributions iirc (not us) up to the amount they were being exposed to. As ever, the other nations in the EU are much better at playing the game than we are.
Mr. Herdson, that rather disregards the direction of travel. Over the last couple of decades, Scotland has been getting more powers. So has the EU.
Scotland has been getting more powers because it's kept jumping up and down and threatening to leave if it didn't - threats backed up by the electorate.
In any case, the two positions aren't incompatible: the core could continue to integrate while formalising an outer zone of membership. That ought to be acceptable to most.
Mr. Max, I fear you underestimate the slyness of the EU.
National armies wouldn't end. They'd just be reduced to platoons.
The co-operative European expedition alliance, or whatever bullshit term which means EU Army but avoids saying it, will be additional. And that'll be used as justification for it not needing any kind of vote, because it doesn't end the UK armed forces it 'augments' them.
Deployment of an EU army would require a new treaty, Lisbon specifically doesn't cover defence because the French and Dutch wanted it thrown out. It is one of those Eurocrat fantasies that would only come with the superstate by which point we would be out anyway.
Moving to an EU Army would require taking defence competencies away from national governments and giving it to Brussels, the chances of that happening are remote and the chances of it succeeding without a single nation wielding their veto is even more remote. They can't incrementally do this, it would have to be a big bang, defence was one of the few things that actually changed from the EU Constitution to the Lisbon Treaty in order to quell French, Dutch and British opposition. If it happens in my lifetime and the Tory party doesn't oppose it I would be very, very surprised.
I think first of all we would be asked to contribute to a temporary EU taskforce, then lead one, then the task force would get a bit bigger and its timescales would be extended, it might gain a headquarters somewhere in the EU, eventually it would be largish and permanent-ish, but by then the idea would have been around for some long it would be uncontroversial.
Mr. Max, I fear you underestimate the slyness of the EU.
National armies wouldn't end. They'd just be reduced to platoons.
The co-operative European expedition alliance, or whatever bullshit term which means EU Army but avoids saying it, will be additional. And that'll be used as justification for it not needing any kind of vote, because it doesn't end the UK armed forces it 'augments' them.
Moving to an EU Army would require taking defence competencies away from national governments and giving it to Brussels, the chances of that happening are remote and the chances of it succeeding without a single nation wielding their veto is even more remote. They can't incrementally do this, it would have to be a big bang, defence was one of the few things that actually changed from the EU Constitution to the Lisbon Treaty in order to quell French, Dutch and British opposition. If it happens in my lifetime and the Tory party doesn't oppose it I would be very, very surprised.
I think first of all we would be asked to contribute to a temporary EU taskforce, then lead one, then the task force would get a bit bigger and its timescales would be extended, it might gain a headquarters somewhere in the EU, eventually it would be largish and permanent-ish, but by then the idea would have been around for some long it would be uncontroversial.
Exactly. It's amazing that after all these years people are still so naive about how the EU (and collaborator governments) operate.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
There is a general lack of talent across the political spectrum. When was the last time you heard a policy proposal that was novel but seems very very good idea.
Tories are basically running a platform of more of the same (fingers crossed the economy doesn't crash and burn) and Labour, poor imitation of the 70's hard left nonsense, and Lib Dems who the f##k knows.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
Using that yardstick, Labour are more than doomed - the Lib Dems aren't even in the game.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
Moving to an EU Army would require taking defence competencies away from national governments and giving it to Brussels, the chances of that happening are remote and the chances of it succeeding without a single nation wielding their veto is even more remote. They can't incrementally do this, it would have to be a big bang, defence was one of the few things that actually changed from the EU Constitution to the Lisbon Treaty in order to quell French, Dutch and British opposition. If it happens in my lifetime and the Tory party doesn't oppose it I would be very, very surprised.
I think first of all we would be asked to contribute to a temporary EU taskforce, then lead one, then the task force would get a bit bigger and its timescales would be extended, it might gain a headquarters somewhere in the EU, eventually it would be largish and permanent-ish, but by then the idea would have been around for some long it would be uncontroversial.
Even a temporary task force would require treaty change or a new treaty. I'm a eurosceptic and I think the EU wants this, but it isn't going to be on the agenda until they push the superstate.
They may tray and rush through changes to Lisbon in order to respond to some urgent crisis, but even then it wouldn't be an easy prospect to ratify the EU taking over defence competencies in all 28 nations. It's not something they could just do by QMV or simple majority. Additionally there are really only a few countries which are in favour of the EU Army, Germany and Belgium are the two that I can think of, Eastern European nations fear that an EU Army would push NATO and US involvement to the sidelines meaning softer opposition to Russian aggression.
Sky reporting that they haven't seen the full May speech - and neither has Number 10 or Remain
I wonder what she's going to say?
FWIW I think she'll make a strong Remain case, acknowledge the EU's shortcomings/limitations, particularly on immigration, suggest it was she who tightened up Cameron's "deal" on migration, and dogwhistle that she too isn't fully happy with the EU either and might be open to further reform (including a better deal if she were PM) in future.
Mrs May doing what's in the interests of Mrs May. Never...
I don't trust her, but if she can strike the right tone and demonstrate she's more electorally popular than Gove she might become a choice for soft Leavers and mainstream Remainers to unite around in the upcoming leadership contest. It's noteworthy that No.10 haven't a clue what she's going to say and she's politically strong enough to be independent of them.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
Can't do any worse than Dave at negotiation.
Though he sets a high bar for pressure selling shit at the doorstep - I'll give him that.
I was quite surprised by the Sky paper reviewers and Eamonn today. Not taken in at all by back of the queue stuff, pointing out we were by far the largest EU US trader [Italy, France and somewhere added together] and bridling at the threats/wouldn't do their bidding.
It's certainly not the coup Remain think it is given the polling and anecdotally what I'm seeing in BTL comments elsewhere.
Now, is the soon-to-be ex-POTUS really telling the truth? Is he really being credible? Or is he doing Cameron's bidding?
Neither.
He is acting in US interests, that's his job. It happens to coincide with Cameron's interest, although not necessarily with the interests of the British public. The US wants the UK in the EU to moderate the French and the Germans, and to speak for them, in return for which we get the privilege of dying in their war, seems fair.
Listening to R4 a commentator claimed there was only ONE serious US trade deal currently in the pipeline ( EU ). Which means there would be a queue of 2.
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
I don't think anyone will be influenced by the back of the queue stuff. Only the most extreme nerds know anything about who we do or don't have trade deals with.
The significance of Obama's intervention is credibility. That a popular foreign leader endorsed Remain is a small plus for them and the hysterical reaction from two of the senior Leavers is likely to be a big minus for them
Sky reporting that they haven't seen the full May speech - and neither has Number 10 or Remain
I wonder what she's going to say?
FWIW I think she'll make a strong Remain case, acknowledge the EU's shortcomings/limitations, particularly on immigration, suggest it was she who tightened up Cameron's "deal" on migration, and dogwhistle that she too isn't fully happy with the EU either and might be open to further reform (including a better deal if she were PM) in future.
Mrs May doing what's in the interests of Mrs May. Never...
I don't trust her, but if she can strike the right tone and demonstrate she's more electorally popular than Gove she might become a choice for soft Leavers and mainstream Remainers to unite around in the upcoming leadership contest. It's noteworthy that No.10 haven't a clue what she's going to say and she's politically strong enough to be independent of them.
I will be reading her speech very carefully.
I want to see Osborne become leader and then watch him destroyed ala Brown.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
There is a lack of talent everywhere. It's the SpAd generation of golden boys and girls parachuted in without having learned any political tradecraft -- speaking, persuading, campaigning. Cameron's reluctance to reshuffle probably does not help Tory recruitment either: £70k a year to be permanent lobby fodder because you didn't choose the right parents.
Sky reporting that they haven't seen the full May speech - and neither has Number 10 or Remain
I wonder what she's going to say?
FWIW I think she'll make a strong Remain case, acknowledge the EU's shortcomings/limitations, particularly on immigration, suggest it was she who tightened up Cameron's "deal" on migration, and dogwhistle that she too isn't fully happy with the EU either and might be open to further reform (including a better deal if she were PM) in future.
Mrs May doing what's in the interests of Mrs May. Never...
I don't trust her, but if she can strike the right tone and demonstrate she's more electorally popular than Gove she might become a choice for soft Leavers and mainstream Remainers to unite around in the upcoming leadership contest. It's noteworthy that No.10 haven't a clue what she's going to say and she's politically strong enough to be independent of them.
I will be reading her speech very carefully.
It will be all things to all men, she will warn on economic calamity in the event of Leave but say that she will try and get more action on immigration regardless of the result, she'll also shit on the EEA solution. I think that is where the next aim of Remain is going to be.
On topic: Does anyone understand why the Leave campaign is doing absolutely nothing to defend itself against the next torpedo which, in a quite remarkably generous example of British fair play Capn Osborne has already said, he is preparing to fire?
Leave's "campaign" has been appalling.
It's weird because they've had decades to prepare for this referendum and don't seem to have prepared at all (A bit like the Lib-Dems a voting reform)
But then you know I think a lot of the leading Leave figures (like Farage) are invested in ensuring we remain in the EU anyway...
So maybe it's not so strange...
They are rather like the dog that's caught up with the car it's been chasing and barking at - and now has no idea what to do next.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
I think that is true of all our political class. Dave is the only big beast we have, we live in an age of political pygmies and yes men.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
There is a general lack of talent across the political spectrum. When was the last time you heard a policy proposal that was novel but seems very very good idea.
These days you are hard pushed to identify an idea from any side which isn't an idiotic stream of sound bites that crumbles at the first hint of scrutiny. Politics is based on the observation that most voters will pay some attention to the big set pieces but rarely bother to follow up on the detail, so Osborne can spout unworkable but attractive nonsense at the budget, and 10 million viewers will nod along to the soundbites on the evening news, but only a few tens of thousands will read the detail in the papers a few days later when it all unravels.
The youth and inexperience of most politicians, their lack of hinterland, and knowledge of anything outside parliament, and their very narrow background and selection of professions is just a recipe for unimpressive party drones, which of course is what leaders want, so they don't act to change it.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
Priti Patel, Michael Gove and Dominic Raab have all been excellent.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
There is a general lack of talent across the political spectrum. When was the last time you heard a policy proposal that was novel but seems very very good idea.
Tories are basically running a platform of more of the same (fingers crossed the economy doesn't crash and burn) and Labour, poor imitation of the 70's hard left nonsense, and Lib Dems who the f##k knows.
Yep, Corbyn Labour's uselessness is a given, while the LDs are now completely irrelevant. There really is a dearth of political talent out there. That Boris might end up as our next PM is frightening. He may be very good at Greek and Latin, as well as banging out a few hundred words in a couple of hours, but he is bone idle, lacks common intelligence, is not able to argue a case under pressure and is entirely devoid of political nous.
Sky reporting that they haven't seen the full May speech - and neither has Number 10 or Remain
I wonder what she's going to say?
FWIW I think she'll make a strong Remain case, acknowledge the EU's shortcomings/limitations, particularly on immigration, suggest it was she who tightened up Cameron's "deal" on migration, and dogwhistle that she too isn't fully happy with the EU either and might be open to further reform (including a better deal if she were PM) in future.
Mrs May doing what's in the interests of Mrs May. Never...
I don't trust her, but if she can strike the right tone and demonstrate she's more electorally popular than Gove she might become a choice for soft Leavers and mainstream Remainers to unite around in the upcoming leadership contest. It's noteworthy that No.10 haven't a clue what she's going to say and she's politically strong enough to be independent of them.
I will be reading her speech very carefully.
I want to see Osborne become leader and then watch him destroyed ala Brown.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
I think that is true of all our political class. Dave is the only big beast we have, we live in an age of political pygmies and yes men.
I think it's more that really able people have no great interest in being in politics.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
the Lib Dems aren't even in the game.
All 8 of them?
The number of MPs at Westminster is a function of the FPTP voting system. Lib Dems would have about 50 MPs under a PR system.
UKIP, Lib Dem and Greens are all under represented in parliament compared with the number of people voting for them.
Comments
As TSE said about Leave yesterday, they feel they just have to get lucky one time.
The continental policy of England [after 1525] was fixed. It was to be pacific, mediating, favourable to a balance which should prevent any power from having a hegemony on the continent or controlling the Channel coasts. The naval security of England and the balance of power in Europe were the two great political principles which appeared in the reign of Henry VIII and which, pursued unwaveringly, were to create the greatness of England
Would be interesting to find out if that actually is the case. If Obama can't get the EU deal past the French and Germans then there is no actual queue.
"Are you ready boots..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
This is why Boris will never be leader of the Conservatives or PM. He won't even make the final two. I've heard a lot of discontent among the Leave side about his intervention wrt to Obama. Most expected Farage to do it anyway so Boris piling on with the "Britain hating Kenyan" stuff was unnecessary.
In the end, the Tories won and the headline polling numbers were considerably less informative than the detail within.
Leave still have the most likely to vote on their side. The underpinning arguments about 'most important issue' also point to leave.
Remain's demographic base is a similar base to the one that saw Ed Miliband romp home.
We know that certain groups are a bit sheepish with telephone pollsters when it comes to admitting Leave/UKIP type views. The telephones were the least accurate at calling left/right blocs last May - always underscoring the right.
"So I gather they think it’s game over. The Bremainers think they have bombed us into submission. They think that we have just seen the turning point in the referendum campaign, and that the British people are so intimidated by these testimonials – American presidents, business leaders, fat cats of every description – " BJ
No Boris. What might have bombed you into submission is YOUR incompetence
What might a future Labour government sign up to, which could then only be repealed by EU exit?
Would a successive Conservative government do a volte-face on the EU and recommend exit to get rid of EU measures signed up to by Labour?
Doubtful unless they were absolutely catastrophic. But the EU knows that's not the way to work it - you instead bring in lots of smallish measures, that over time have a big harmonisation effect.
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/724517279640203264
UK annual contribution to the EU (net), 2015: £8,500,000,000
I can sort of understand British and French co-operation militarily, we have similar aims, but handing over defence to Brussels is something all but a few Tories would baulk at, I think maybe only Ken Clark, Hezza and Osborne would be in favour.
Edit: I think I recall that Carswell may have said something, but afaics he's been almost invisible recently.
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Now where's that new talk radio channel.......
The EU has always tended to work that way, and, with resistance to grand projects having grown since the 1990s (as shown by various referendum setbacks) that is even more likely to be the case in future. Hence the 'enhanced cooperation' clause in Lisbon and increased reliance on ECJ activism.
If it were something like handing over defence policy to the EU and the Tories didn't oppose it UKIP may end up romping home at a GE, it's that poisonous a chalice.
http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/24/the-way-they-were-labour-leaders-versus-sadiq-khan/
Sharing a platform with an extremist once or twice is unfortunate or having a nutter extremist in the close family, but Khan history is time and time again a similar story. What is the most generous description? Not wanting to upset certain sections of society with extremely dodgy views?
In any case, a new Treaty handing over powers would need either a referendum or the repeal of the legislation requiring one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Border_and_Coast_Guard
Where received widespread support
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0b7ce862-a59b-11e5-9101-8718f09f6ece
Article 77 TFEU Article grants competence to the EU to adopt legislation on a "gradual introduction of an integrated management system for external borders," and article 79 authorizes the EU to enact legislation concerning the repatriation of third-country nationals residing illegally within the EU.
EBCG will have powers to intervene in the border affairs of member states against the will of that country's government, what could possibly go wrong!
https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/724527712199708672
Nothing will ever [EVER] be allowed to get in the way of the establishments agenda. The "end game" is the USE and nothing will stop them, bit by bit, in small and incremental steps, submitting us to it.
Osborne claims he's supporting the services, but that's only by counting war pensions as defence spending.
I believe a lot of people will either be disinterested, feel it isn't a critical issue or will be unable to make up their minds as arguments drift over their heads.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36101423
Free speech as long as we aren't intimidated or dislike the views of the individual. There is a world of difference between BNP or Islamic Extremists and the likes of Germaine Greer or Peter Tatchell.
F##king idiots.
National armies wouldn't end. They'd just be reduced to platoons.
The co-operative European expedition alliance, or whatever bullshit term which means EU Army but avoids saying it, will be additional. And that'll be used as justification for it not needing any kind of vote, because it doesn't end the UK armed forces it 'augments' them.
The rules simply don't apply when inconvenient. How can anyone have any faith in them? Expediency trumps millions of treaty words.
It's weird because they've had decades to prepare for this referendum and don't seem to have prepared at all (A bit like the Lib-Dems a voting reform)
But then you know I think a lot of the leading Leave figures (like Farage) are invested in ensuring we remain in the EU anyway...
So maybe it's not so strange...
In any case, the two positions aren't incompatible: the core could continue to integrate while formalising an outer zone of membership. That ought to be acceptable to most.
Tories are basically running a platform of more of the same (fingers crossed the economy doesn't crash and burn) and Labour, poor imitation of the 70's hard left nonsense, and Lib Dems who the f##k knows.
They may tray and rush through changes to Lisbon in order to respond to some urgent crisis, but even then it wouldn't be an easy prospect to ratify the EU taking over defence competencies in all 28 nations. It's not something they could just do by QMV or simple majority. Additionally there are really only a few countries which are in favour of the EU Army, Germany and Belgium are the two that I can think of, Eastern European nations fear that an EU Army would push NATO and US involvement to the sidelines meaning softer opposition to Russian aggression.
I will be reading her speech very carefully.
Though he sets a high bar for pressure selling shit at the doorstep - I'll give him that.
The significance of Obama's intervention is credibility. That a popular foreign leader endorsed Remain is a small plus for them and the hysterical reaction from two of the senior Leavers is likely to be a big minus for them
The youth and inexperience of most politicians, their lack of hinterland, and knowledge of anything outside parliament, and their very narrow background and selection of professions is just a recipe for unimpressive party drones, which of course is what leaders want, so they don't act to change it.
UKIP, Lib Dem and Greens are all under represented in parliament compared with the number of people voting for them.