Again a great deal about how the Leave campaign is in dissaray (true), but where's the polling? I don't understand why no-one seems to have commissioned any polls in the wake of Obama's intervention. Why are we doing a post-mortem of how dire this week has been for Leave, when we have no polling evidence to suggest it has been?
When I talk about who has paid for polls I get rebuked on here but it is vital to know who is paying the polling company, they need repeat business. After the GE it was unanimously agreed they were fatally discredited, I wouldn't pay too much attention.
I'm very optimistic, what else can Remain throw at Leave? Perhaps Merkel will fly over to have her say, now that would be funny.
My point is with 8 weeks to go Leave are right in there and fighting, Cameron and Osborne are becoming increasingly derided by Conservatives, it could be that they have badly misjudged this and will appear increasingly desperate.
Cool heads Leavers, Remain didn't plan on it being this close, still everything to play for.
I think Remain will win but at enormous establishment cost.
People are seeing the ugly face of the establishment. By throwing everything behind hectoring the public to the polling booths, they are damaging themselves in the process. It's not just Cameron, Osborne, and the EU it's also big business, and the US and its agenda. This debate is putting everything under the spotlight.
Winning the battle but losing the war is a phrase that springs to mind.
5 countries in the queue, 80m at the gate. Turkey acting as the back door for the middle east.
Turkey for Christmas, Albania for Easter.
Remain can't win when discussing migration. Even the dimmest bulb in the box knows that.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
The referendum is exposing the lack of talent there is in the Conservative party. Given that we are stuck with them for a fair few years, that's a bit of a worry. You certainly would not want any of their Leavers anywhere near the table in any international negotiation; while no-one on the Remain side is setting the world on fire either.
I think that is true of all our political class. Dave is the only big beast we have, we live in an age of political pygmies and yes men.
I think it's more that really able people have no great interest in being in politics.
Probably true. I actually think that is partly a phenomenon related to the EU, power has become so far removed from the people that many feel discouraged from even bothering. On this website I can think of people who would be better suited to lead the political campaign for Leave but none would get involved.
I think there are many reasons, of which that is one.
Another is the incredible scrutiny of personal lives by the press, the relatively poor rewards, and the fact that the job of the backbench MP is b.o.r.i.n.g.
another velvet zinger at Osborne, this time on his overtures to China-reality of trade with them 'dumping and industrial scale espionage' 3:31 a.m. - 25 Apr 2016
Well I'm glad at least someone in the government is paying attention to Chinese dumping and industrial espionage. British companies have been the victim of IP theft by Chinese companies too often and both the Chinese and UK authorities have turned a blind eye.
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
Clever Theresa.
And possibly clever Cameron and Osborne, of course.
I don't think they've been involved in this.
Everything I've heard and read suggests to me Theresa is her own woman.
D'Ancona was making threatening noises against her barely two weeks before she came out for Remain on behalf of the Cameroons, and James Forsyth was saying no-one had a clue what she's do in The Spectator.
I may be wrong but I think this is her own initiative.
I think you are right. Theresa May is in no one's camp. Rather like Hammond. One suspects they both declared for Remain out of loyalty to the PM, but could probably both have declared for Leave without too much in the way of blowback from the leadership. Hammond must be regretting not throwing his lot in with Leave given how shambolic the organisation is and how prominent he would have been, being regarded as the de facto leader ahead of Boris and Gove. He would be being talked about as the prime mover for the leadership at the moment.
As a former Defence Secretary and current Foreign Secretary, Hammond would have brought gravitas to Leave, as well as ruining Remain's strength to be the safe, secure option
Which is why he must be thinking of what might have been. We all know he is a BOOer and with the way the campaign to Leave is going he could easily have dragged it into the realms of credibility that Boris and Nige don't provide. Gosh would you look at that, I've just put Boris in the same bracket as Farage, just look at how far he has fallen.
You know he might actually believe in the EU, and considers Leaving too big a risk.
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
Clever Theresa.
And possibly clever Cameron and Osborne, of course.
I don't think they've been involved in this.
Everything I've heard and read suggests to me Theresa is her own woman.
D'Ancona was making threatening noises against her barely two weeks before she came out for Remain on behalf of the Cameroons, and James Forsyth was saying no-one had a clue what she's do in The Spectator.
I may be wrong but I think this is her own initiative.
I think you are right. Theresa May is in no one's camp. Rather like Hammond. One suspects they both declared for Remain out of loyalty to the PM, but could probably both have declared for Leave without too much in the way of blowback from the leadership. Hammond must be regretting not throwing his lot in with Leave given how shambolic the organisation is and how prominent he would have been, being regarded as the de facto leader ahead of Boris and Gove. He would be being talked about as the prime mover for the leadership at the moment.
As a former Defence Secretary and current Foreign Secretary, Hammond would have brought gravitas to Leave, as well as ruining Remain's strength to be the safe, secure option
Which is why he must be thinking of what might have been. We all know he is a BOOer and with the way the campaign to Leave is going he could easily have dragged it into the realms of credibility that Boris and Nige don't provide. Gosh would you look at that, I've just put Boris in the same bracket as Farage, just look at how far he has fallen.
A friend of mine knows him well, and claims he does not want to be PM.
Theresa May producing a very well crafted speech making her case to remain. Very impressed and in view of Osborne and Boris's failures she has a real opportunity as a bridge between both sides to gain the ultimate crown and become the second conservative female Prime Minister. Are you watching labour
IDS reminding us why the Tory MPs who ditched him as leader were right
@MrHarryCole: IDS attacks "Mr Mandelson in your cashmere coat". Says not about "xenophobia" but "being bullied by big corporates" who want cheapest labour
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
I don't think that's compatible with EU membership.
I think you probably can although it'd be a messy situation where the ECHR applied at EU level but not at UK level, so cases could still be brought providing that they were brought based on an EU competence.
In practice, it'd be a slow route to Leave as I don't think the public would accept that kind of compromise. Best to be clear one way or the other.
5 countries in the queue, 80m at the gate. Turkey acting as the back door for the middle east.
Turkey for Christmas, Albania for Easter.
Remain can't win when discussing migration. Even the dimmest bulb in the box knows that.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
The French constitution requires a referendum for any country that would add more than 5% to EU population.
Which very specifically targets Turkey.
I struggle to see circumstances where that referendum would be passed.
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
I don't think that's compatible with EU membership.
I think you probably can although it'd be a messy situation where the ECHR applied at EU level but not at UK level, so cases could still be brought providing that they were brought based on an EU competence.
In practice, it'd be a slow route to Leave as I don't think the public would accept that kind of compromise. Best to be clear one way or the other.
Plus would cause all sorts of issues for the Good Friday Agreement
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
Or it will be some sort of associate member, most of the membership perks without actually being a member, it's already on the way there, and Merkel is proving adept at folding to their demands.
Turkey had to meet 30 conditions to get visa free access and... didn't come close, so it's threatening to open the borders again.
Turkey has threatened to renege on a landmark deal to curb illegal migration to the European Union if the bloc fails to grant visa-free travel to Europe for Turkey's 78 million citizens by the end of June.
If Ankara follows through on its threat, it would reopen the floodgates and allow potentially millions of migrants from Africa, Asia and the Middle East to flow from Turkey into the European Union.
Is May showing Cameron what the PM should have been saying? AKA The Wilson Strategy?
“The first is that in the 21st century Britain is too small a country to cope outside the European Union. That’s nonsense. We’re the fifth biggest economy in the world, we’re growing faster than any economy in the G7, we attract nearly a fifth of all foreign investment in the EU, we have a military capable of projecting its power around the world, intelligence services that are second to none, and friendships and alliances that go far beyond Europe. We have the greatest soft power in the world, we sit in exactly the right timezone for global trade and our language is the world’s language. Of course Britain could cope outside the European Union.” “Free movement rules mean it’s harder to control the volume of European immigration, and that is clearly no good thing.”
Again a great deal about how the Leave campaign is in dissaray (true), but where's the polling? I don't understand why no-one seems to have commissioned any polls in the wake of Obama's intervention. Why are we doing a post-mortem of how dire this week has been for Leave, when we have no polling evidence to suggest it has been?
Polls take a few day to conduct.
I took part in an Opinium poll last night.
I suspect we'll get a few polls this week.
They may also see some impact from Osborne's £4,300 figure.
Yes, I expect Osborne's to impact negatively for Leave. It was flagrantly dishonest but doubtless effective.
Obama's I'm far less sure about. The Remain echo chamber seems to think it's a lottery win, but the only actual prediction has been for a 2 to 3% poll boost.
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
Clever Theresa.
And possibly clever Cameron and Osborne, of course.
I don't think they've been involved in this.
Everything I've heard and read suggests to me Theresa is her own woman.
D'Ancona was making threatening noises against her barely two weeks before she came out for Remain on behalf of the Cameroons, and James Forsyth was saying no-one had a clue what she's do in The Spectator.
I may be wrong but I think this is her own initiative.
I think you are right. Theresa May is in no one's camp. Rather like Hammond. One suspects they both declared for Remain out of loyalty to the PM, but could probably both have declared for Leave without too much in the way of blowback from the leadership. Hammond must be regretting not throwing his lot in with Leave given how shambolic the organisation is and how prominent he would have been, being regarded as the de facto leader ahead of Boris and Gove. He would be being talked about as the prime mover for the leadership at the moment.
As a former Defence Secretary and current Foreign Secretary, Hammond would have brought gravitas to Leave, as well as ruining Remain's strength to be the safe, secure option
Which is why he must be thinking of what might have been. We all know he is a BOOer and with the way the campaign to Leave is going he could easily have dragged it into the realms of credibility that Boris and Nige don't provide. Gosh would you look at that, I've just put Boris in the same bracket as Farage, just look at how far he has fallen.
You know he might actually believe in the EU, and considers Leaving too big a risk.
It's possible but his political career has been based on being a BOOer all this time, I find it hard to believe that he hasn't just plumped for Remain out of loyalty to the PM. If Rob is right and he doesn't seek the leadership then it makes slightly more sense.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
Or it will be some sort of associate member, most of the membership perks without actually being a member, it's already on the way there, and Merkel is proving adept at folding to their demands.
Turkey had to meet 30 conditions to get visa free access and... didn't come close, so it's threatening to open the borders again.
Turkey has threatened to renege on a landmark deal to curb illegal migration to the European Union if the bloc fails to grant visa-free travel to Europe for Turkey's 78 million citizens by the end of June.
If Ankara follows through on its threat, it would reopen the floodgates and allow potentially millions of migrants from Africa, Asia and the Middle East to flow from Turkey into the European Union.
Visa free travel to the Schengen zone does not equal Associate Membership, unless you think Korea has Associate Membership of the EU.
Again a great deal about how the Leave campaign is in dissaray (true), but where's the polling? I don't understand why no-one seems to have commissioned any polls in the wake of Obama's intervention. Why are we doing a post-mortem of how dire this week has been for Leave, when we have no polling evidence to suggest it has been?
Polls take a few day to conduct.
I took part in an Opinium poll last night.
I suspect we'll get a few polls this week.
They may also see some impact from Osborne's £4,300 figure.
Yes, I expect Osborne's to impact negatively for Leave. It was flagrantly dishonest but doubtless effective.
Obama's I'm far less sure about. The Remain echo chamber seems to think it's a lottery win, but the only actual prediction has been for a 2 to 3% poll boost.
My bold prediction, in the supplementaries, the voters will say they didn't take kindly to Obama's intervention, but in the actual referendum VI, it will boost/harden support in Remain's favour.
IDS reminding us why the Tory MPs who ditched him as leader were right
@MrHarryCole: IDS attacks "Mr Mandelson in your cashmere coat". Says not about "xenophobia" but "being bullied by big corporates" who want cheapest labour
I agree - very offensive. It should be Lord Mandelson or HRH Prince of Darkness.
IDS reminding us why the Tory MPs who ditched him as leader were right
@MrHarryCole: IDS attacks "Mr Mandelson in your cashmere coat". Says not about "xenophobia" but "being bullied by big corporates" who want cheapest labour
I agree - very offensive. It should be Lord Mandelson or HRH Prince of Darkness.
This is almost certainly my emotions talking, but it does slightly make me wonder if this slightly more 'constructive' and 'concern addressing' approach is due to private polling suggesting things not looking as they should for Remain. But I suspect it's more about an attempt to put the Tories back together after a Remain win.
I suspect I'm guilty of confirmation bias, but I have wondered if the length to which Remain have gone on the attack reflects poor private polling. Perhaps this was the agreed strategy whatever the polling but I get the feeling that things aren't quite as good as the Remain team would like them to be.
Again a great deal about how the Leave campaign is in dissaray (true), but where's the polling? I don't understand why no-one seems to have commissioned any polls in the wake of Obama's intervention. Why are we doing a post-mortem of how dire this week has been for Leave, when we have no polling evidence to suggest it has been?
When I talk about who has paid for polls I get rebuked on here but it is vital to know who is paying the polling company, they need repeat business. After the GE it was unanimously agreed they were fatally discredited, I wouldn't pay too much attention.
I'm very optimistic, what else can Remain throw at Leave? Perhaps Merkel will fly over to have her say, now that would be funny.
My point is with 8 weeks to go Leave are right in there and fighting, Cameron and Osborne are becoming increasingly derided by Conservatives, it could be that they have badly misjudged this and will appear increasingly desperate.
Cool heads Leavers, Remain didn't plan on it being this close, still everything to play for.
I think Remain will win but at enormous establishment cost.
People are seeing the ugly face of the establishment. By throwing everything behind hectoring the public to the polling booths, they are damaging themselves in the process. It's not just Cameron, Osborne, and the EU it's also big business, and the US and its agenda. This debate is putting everything under the spotlight.
Winning the battle but losing the war is a phrase that springs to mind.
Remain are odds on and consistently ahead, albeit narrowly in the polls so predicting a win isn't out of line.
But if Cameron's crystal ball had foreseen this situation do you think he'd have offered a referendum? You are correct, his reputation is trashed regardless of the outcome.
1 or 2 Remainers are sounding smug but the fat lady hasn't started singing yet.
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
Clever Theresa.
And possibly clever Cameron and Osborne, of course.
I don't think they've been involved in this.
Everything I've heard and read suggests to me Theresa is her own woman.
D'Ancona was making threatening noises against her barely two weeks before she came out for Remain on behalf of the Cameroons, and James Forsyth was saying no-one had a clue what she's do in The Spectator.
I may be wrong but I think this is her own initiative.
I think you are right. Theresa May is in no one's camp. Rather like Hammond. One suspects they both declared for Remain out of loyalty to the PM, but could probably both have declared for Leave without too much in the way of blowback from the leadership. Hammond must be regretting not throwing his lot in with Leave given how shambolic the organisation is and how prominent he would have been, being regarded as the de facto leader ahead of Boris and Gove. He would be being talked about as the prime mover for the leadership at the moment.
As a former Defence Secretary and current Foreign Secretary, Hammond would have brought gravitas to Leave, as well as ruining Remain's strength to be the safe, secure option
No, he really wouldn't. He'd have been just one more, rather unknown Tory face. He'd have written one or two columns that few would have read. The appearance of 'gravitas' comes with a sophisticated infrastructure. No one individual brings that - if anything, twice election winner Boris should have realised that was what was required, and taken steps.
5 countries in the queue, 80m at the gate. Turkey acting as the back door for the middle east.
Turkey for Christmas, Albania for Easter.
Remain can't win when discussing migration. Even the dimmest bulb in the box knows that.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
The French constitution requires a referendum for any country that would add more than 5% to EU population.
Which very specifically targets Turkey.
I struggle to see circumstances where that referendum would be passed.
That's assuming Turkey want to join. The scenario which is troubling is if Erdogan asks for free movement without membership, do the EU refuse the and he proceeds to flood Greece with 2m+ migrants or do they give in which gives 70m+ Turkish citizens the right to resettle in any EU nation. This could be done as part of a trade deal (reciprocal residency rights) and voted through using QMV negating French, Cypriot and Greek opposition.
Visa free travel to the Schengen zone does not equal Associate Membership, unless you think Korea has Associate Membership of the EU.
No. But the direction of travel is clear, Turkey has the EU by the balls and is going to play it for all it is worth.
Would you be remotely surprised for example if Turkey now got Visa free travel despite not meeting any of the 37 conditions that were placed on it as conditions of getting that status ? Once Turkey sees the threat works, its going to get played over and over again.
"Democracy, freedom and the rule of law.... For us, these words have absolutely no value any longer." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
As someone who as been following politics for a long time (!), I can assure you that the current crop of politicians on the Conservative side is the most talented for half a century, apart from the special case of the first two Thatcher administrations.
Labour, not so much!
Must have been some real dross in the Tories over last 50 years for sure if they were worse than this bunch of turkeys.
IDS reminding us why the Tory MPs who ditched him as leader were right
@MrHarryCole: IDS attacks "Mr Mandelson in your cashmere coat". Says not about "xenophobia" but "being bullied by big corporates" who want cheapest labour
Not good for Cameron as the front person for REMAIN. 70% say that Cameron is out of touch with ordinary people. 63% disagree that Cameron has sound judgement.
Free speech as long as we aren't intimidated or dislike the views of the individual. There is a world of difference between BNP or Islamic Extremists and the likes of Germaine Greer or Peter Tatchell.
F##king idiots.
Good luck to these cosseted little darlings when they hit the real world!
Actually I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that some people are beyond the pale. Where you draw the line is more tricky. I have to say whilst some appear to have little time for students being picky about who they'll invite to meetings, the same people often want to knock Sadiq Khan for having appeared on a platform with various dubious characters.
I don't know much about Khan (I know Alan Sugar wrote a piece in the paper) but so far the allegations against him seem like piffle.
Visa free travel to the Schengen zone does not equal Associate Membership, unless you think Korea has Associate Membership of the EU.
No. But the direction of travel is clear, Turkey has the EU by the balls and is going to play it for all it is worth.
Would you be remotely surprised for example if Turkey now got Visa free travel despite not meeting any of the 37 conditions that were placed on it as conditions of getting that status ? Once Turkey sees the threat works, its going to get played over and over again.
"Democracy, freedom and the rule of law.... For us, these words have absolutely no value any longer." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Turkey holds all the cards. If it doesn't get what it wants, the immigration tap is turned up to full flow.
It's worth pointing out that, whatever the merits or otherwise of Theresa May's suggestion, there's zero chance of getting a majority for it in the current parliament.
Visa free travel to the Schengen zone does not equal Associate Membership, unless you think Korea has Associate Membership of the EU.
No. But the direction of travel is clear, Turkey has the EU by the balls and is going to play it for all it is worth.
Would you be remotely surprised for example if Turkey now got Visa free travel despite not meeting any of the 37 conditions that were placed on it as conditions of getting that status ? Once Turkey sees the threat works, its going to get played over and over again.
"Democracy, freedom and the rule of law.... For us, these words have absolutely no value any longer." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Turkey holds all the cards. If it doesn't get what it wants, the immigration tap is turned up to full flow.
This is almost certainly my emotions talking, but it does slightly make me wonder if this slightly more 'constructive' and 'concern addressing' approach is due to private polling suggesting things not looking as they should for Remain. But I suspect it's more about an attempt to put the Tories back together after a Remain win.
I suspect I'm guilty of confirmation bias, but I have wondered if the length to which Remain have gone on the attack reflects poor private polling. Perhaps this was the agreed strategy whatever the polling but I get the feeling that things aren't quite as good as the Remain team would like them to be.
It does look like they have brought forward some of the things they planned to talk about at later dates. May not be private polling more using realistic weightings to the data and modelling it better than the polling companies.
May's just called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights
I don't think that's compatible with EU membership.
I think you probably can although it'd be a messy situation where the ECHR applied at EU level but not at UK level, so cases could still be brought providing that they were brought based on an EU competence.
In practice, it'd be a slow route to Leave as I don't think the public would accept that kind of compromise. Best to be clear one way or the other.
Plus would cause all sorts of issues for the Good Friday Agreement
Another is the incredible scrutiny of personal lives by the press, the relatively poor rewards, and the fact that the job of the backbench MP is b.o.r.i.n.g.
Like all jobs it's a matter of taste, but I thought it was absolutely fascinating for every minute of my 13 years. The balance between debating high policy in public, scrutinising detailed wording of law in committee and helping people personally at the weekends added up to a multifaceted job, the only snag about which was that one really needed 48 hours/day to do it all. I had a good innings and have no regrets, but if I'd been reelected I'd be doing it with the same enthusiasm as I started.
What it isn't is an executive role.. Some people become MPs expecting to decide things, and as a former senior manager I did miss that. Even junior Ministers don't decide much. But if you accept that it's an advisory/influencing role, it's terrific.
IDS reminding us why the Tory MPs who ditched him as leader were right
@MrHarryCole: IDS attacks "Mr Mandelson in your cashmere coat". Says not about "xenophobia" but "being bullied by big corporates" who want cheapest labour
5 countries in the queue, 80m at the gate. Turkey acting as the back door for the middle east.
Turkey for Christmas, Albania for Easter.
Remain can't win when discussing migration. Even the dimmest bulb in the box knows that.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
The French constitution requires a referendum for any country that would add more than 5% to EU population.
Which very specifically targets Turkey.
I struggle to see circumstances where that referendum would be passed.
That's assuming Turkey want to join. The scenario which is troubling is if Erdogan asks for free movement without membership, do the EU refuse the and he proceeds to flood Greece with 2m+ migrants or do they give in which gives 70m+ Turkish citizens the right to resettle in any EU nation. This could be done as part of a trade deal (reciprocal residency rights) and voted through using QMV negating French, Cypriot and Greek opposition.
Actually I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that some people are beyond the pale. Where you draw the line is more tricky. I have to say whilst some appear to have little time for students being picky about who they'll invite to meetings, the same people often want to knock Sadiq Khan for having appeared on a platform with various dubious characters.
Isnt this exactly the point. No-platforming nutters is dangerous because then you don't get to expose and counter their views, and you don't get to see who their friends and associates are. I agree that various unsavoury types should not be in a position to have private meetings with impressionable groups, but the oxygen of publicity, and ideally, ridicule is just what they need.
I have the same objections to all this safespace idiocy, people should have the freedom to expose their unsavoury views, and others the matching freedom to counter them, and to ridicule them. If we keep the nutters out of the limelight, it doesn't stop their unsavoury views, except they are now able to fester unchallenged until they consider doing something about those views.
For my taste the first clause of a British Bill of Right should be a bombproof guarantee of the freedom of speech (accepting that it doesn't incite criminal behaviour).
Alistair Meeks, If Labour really were to poll 29% in Wales, that would be dire.
They dropped to 20% in 2009, but that was a Euroelection and was also with Brown leading in government and straight after the expenses scandal.
Wales seems to be drifting away from Labour quite quickly but because of the heartland Valleys, the scale of the swing is being masked.
As a resident it's hard to say where Wales is heading. We still have the same constituencies as 1999 for the Assembly which probably helps Labour. I still think there is a big challenge for the Tories if they want a real breakthrough, the Lib Dems are comatose in the water, Ukip are the big unknown and up till now Plaid have been unable to take advantage of what should have been propitious circumstances. My guess is Labour will remain at the top of the tree without much fondness for them. Rather like the Tories at Westminster.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
Or it will be some sort of associate member, most of the membership perks without actually being a member, it's already on the way there, and Merkel is proving adept at folding to their demands.
Turkey had to meet 30 conditions to get visa free access and... didn't come close, so it's threatening to open the borders again.
Turkey has threatened to renege on a landmark deal to curb illegal migration to the European Union if the bloc fails to grant visa-free travel to Europe for Turkey's 78 million citizens by the end of June.
If Ankara follows through on its threat, it would reopen the floodgates and allow potentially millions of migrants from Africa, Asia and the Middle East to flow from Turkey into the European Union.
I said this at the time too, it's so bleeding obvious.
Nope, won't happen. The speech will be welcomed by Osborne and Cameron.
Given your predictive powers, there are 1.7 billion reasons why we should wait and see.
My predictive powers are in good nick, thanks, as my betting P+L over the last 8 years attests.
You did get on 6%-65% at 9/1, I hope?
Depends. My political betting P&L is good.
My betting P&L is not so good because I was a real douchebag on the horses and boat race.
Lifetime p&ls would be so handy from bookies. For the common punter it would show them how much they're losing - I think it should be a requirement by law actually.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
Or it will be some sort of associate member, most of the membership perks without actually being a member, it's already on the way there, and Merkel is proving adept at folding to their demands.
Turkey had to meet 30 conditions to get visa free access and... didn't come close, so it's threatening to open the borders again.
Turkey has threatened to renege on a landmark deal to curb illegal migration to the European Union if the bloc fails to grant visa-free travel to Europe for Turkey's 78 million citizens by the end of June.
If Ankara follows through on its threat, it would reopen the floodgates and allow potentially millions of migrants from Africa, Asia and the Middle East to flow from Turkey into the European Union.
Turkey has been an Associate Member of the EEC and its successors since 1963, which gives some indication of how glacial its progress has been towards actual membership.
Re visa travel, if a deal was agreed on visa-free travel then it should be implemented (although of course that cuts both ways - Turkey has obligations under the deal too). I don't really see the debate there.
5 countries in the queue, 80m at the gate. Turkey acting as the back door for the middle east.
Turkey for Christmas, Albania for Easter.
Remain can't win when discussing migration. Even the dimmest bulb in the box knows that.
Turkey has been in the queue for generations and is moving away from meeting accession criteria - and that's before you introduce the Cyprus problem. Turkish membership is probably impossible before 2030 and unlikely before 2050 unless there's a new Ataturk who can fundamentally change the nature of the country.
The French constitution requires a referendum for any country that would add more than 5% to EU population.
Which very specifically targets Turkey.
I struggle to see circumstances where that referendum would be passed.
That's assuming Turkey want to join. The scenario which is troubling is if Erdogan asks for free movement without membership, do the EU refuse the and he proceeds to flood Greece with 2m+ migrants or do they give in which gives 70m+ Turkish citizens the right to resettle in any EU nation. This could be done as part of a trade deal (reciprocal residency rights) and voted through using QMV negating French, Cypriot and Greek opposition.
Erdogan says jump; Merkel says, how high?
Well I wouldn't have thought it possible a few weeks ago, but since the dodgy migrant deal it is clear Erdogan has Merkel in his pocket because she wasn't strong enough to take the necessary steps and discourage the migrants from coming the first place (rapid deportation, closed borders, refusal of entry etc...).
The May speech is clever and well-judged in her quest for the leadership (note how she's instantly won Casino's sympathy even though she's for Remain). I'm not sure if it is useful for Remain.
It addresses an audience of floating voters who don't like aspects of the EU but don't necessarily want to leave (Corbyn did the same with a very different floating audience - lefties worried by capitalist Europe). The advantage of this sort of approach is that by definition a floating voters has doubts, and if you say you'll address some of the doubts you're talking their language.
The drawback is that it raises the salience of a relatively obscure aspect of Europe (in the wider sense) which she says doesn't work well. A possible reaction to that is "Well, maybe pulling out altogether would be best, then", especially as it's not clear how practical withdrawal from the Court alone would be.
Is May showing Cameron what the PM should have been saying? AKA The Wilson Strategy?
“The first is that in the 21st century Britain is too small a country to cope outside the European Union. That’s nonsense. We’re the fifth biggest economy in the world, we’re growing faster than any economy in the G7, we attract nearly a fifth of all foreign investment in the EU, we have a military capable of projecting its power around the world, intelligence services that are second to none, and friendships and alliances that go far beyond Europe. We have the greatest soft power in the world, we sit in exactly the right timezone for global trade and our language is the world’s language. Of course Britain could cope outside the European Union.” “Free movement rules mean it’s harder to control the volume of European immigration, and that is clearly no good thing.”
She's navigating this very well, showing her metal again.
This is almost certainly my emotions talking, but it does slightly make me wonder if this slightly more 'constructive' and 'concern addressing' approach is due to private polling suggesting things not looking as they should for Remain. But I suspect it's more about an attempt to put the Tories back together after a Remain win.
I suspect I'm guilty of confirmation bias, but I have wondered if the length to which Remain have gone on the attack reflects poor private polling. Perhaps this was the agreed strategy whatever the polling but I get the feeling that things aren't quite as good as the Remain team would like them to be.
It does look like they have brought forward some of the things they planned to talk about at later dates. May not be private polling more using realistic weightings to the data and modelling it better than the polling companies.
Obama's visit was planned months ago and it looks like remain have engaged in a very professional campaign so far and Teresa May strongly intervening this morning is further evidence of that
This is almost certainly my emotions talking, but it does slightly make me wonder if this slightly more 'constructive' and 'concern addressing' approach is due to private polling suggesting things not looking as they should for Remain. But I suspect it's more about an attempt to put the Tories back together after a Remain win.
I suspect I'm guilty of confirmation bias, but I have wondered if the length to which Remain have gone on the attack reflects poor private polling. Perhaps this was the agreed strategy whatever the polling but I get the feeling that things aren't quite as good as the Remain team would like them to be.
Something is driving their OTT early panicking hyperbole. I think you may be right, it's certainly not the runaway lead they expected with 56 days to go.
Turkey has been an Associate Member of the EEC and its successors since 1963, which gives some indication of how glacial its progress has been towards actual membership.
Re visa travel, if a deal was agreed on visa-free travel then it should be implemented (although of course that cuts both ways - Turkey has obligations under the deal too). I don't really see the debate there.
Well I think that's a naive view of what's going on at the moment with Turkey and the EU. Erdogan knows he has the EU over a barrel and is asking for visa free travel without any chance of them holding up their side of the bargain, and he knows the EU will give in because they can't handle the 2m migrants that would be let loose into Greece.
Visa free travel to the Schengen zone does not equal Associate Membership, unless you think Korea has Associate Membership of the EU.
No. But the direction of travel is clear, Turkey has the EU by the balls and is going to play it for all it is worth.
Would you be remotely surprised for example if Turkey now got Visa free travel despite not meeting any of the 37 conditions that were placed on it as conditions of getting that status ? Once Turkey sees the threat works, its going to get played over and over again.
"Democracy, freedom and the rule of law.... For us, these words have absolutely no value any longer." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Arrested comedians, party leaders and journalists are just a few examples of short and curly diplomacy.
I would say that is a whacking big assumption. It assumes that the reasons that the polling differs between Labour and Conservative voters is the same as between In and Out voters, it's possible, but a big maybe.
Are the sort of people that were overrepresented for Labour in online polls likely to be the same people as those overrepresented for Leave? Maybe.
Older people tend to vote conservative and tend to be leavers etc
£1 billion boost for social housing as EU public bank warns of risk of Brexit
The European Investment Bank (EIB) has today agreed a £1 billion loan for affordable housing, supporting the building of 20,000 homes, but has warned that leaving the EU could put its future investment in the UK at risk.
The EIB is a crucial source of low-cost financing in the UK, providing £5.6 billion of long-term investment for fifty projects across the country in 2015. It has warned that Brexit would be likely to significantly reduce future lending, pointing to non-EU members Switzerland and Norway who combined have received forty times less investment than the UK in recent years.
Spokesperson for the Liberal Democrat EU referendum campaign Catherine Bearder MEP commented:
"The EU's Investment Bank is playing a key role in building the affordable housing and infrastructure our country so desperately needs.
"Leaving the EU would put this critical investment at risk and worsen the housing crisis affecting millions of people across the UK.
"This is yet another blow to those who want to drag us out of Europe at all costs."
Notes to Editors
EIB investments in the UK totalled £5.6 billion in 2015, a record year since lending began in 1973. This lending supported construction work at 77 schools, five university campuses and four hospitals. It has also upgraded energy links, strengthened water infrastructure with five of the largest water providers in the UK and improved broadband access in rural areas. The bank is now planning another £580m of loans directly to housing associations to build more social housing.
Over the past eight years, the bank has invested 42 times more in the UK than it has in Norway and Switzerland combined, both of which are non-EU members.
The EIB is owned directly by the 28 European Union member states, including a 16% stake held by the UK government. Unlike other European countries, the UK has no national infrastructure bank that could immediately replace the EIB as a source of long-term and low-cost loans.
Aside from the nods on the ECHR and free movement, and clear insinuation she'd have got a better deal had she been in charge, most of that speech reads as a conventionally europhile argument.
Actually I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that some people are beyond the pale. Where you draw the line is more tricky. I have to say whilst some appear to have little time for students being picky about who they'll invite to meetings, the same people often want to knock Sadiq Khan for having appeared on a platform with various dubious characters.
Isnt this exactly the point. No-platforming nutters is dangerous because then you don't get to expose and counter their views, and you don't get to see who their friends and associates are. I agree that various unsavoury types should not be in a position to have private meetings with impressionable groups, but the oxygen of publicity, and ideally, ridicule is just what they need.
I have the same objections to all this safespace idiocy, people should have the freedom to expose their unsavoury views, and others the matching freedom to counter them, and to ridicule them. If we keep the nutters out of the limelight, it doesn't stop their unsavoury views, except they are now able to fester unchallenged until they consider doing something about those views.
For my taste the first clause of a British Bill of Right should be a bombproof guarantee of the freedom of speech (accepting that it doesn't incite criminal behaviour).
Yes, I agree - I opposed the various efforts to stop the BNP speaking (including in my constituency at the time) and think it gives exactly the wrong message - "ooh, I don't want to hear that". The correct line to draw is if anything is said that breaks the law, and there's scope for a discussion of what sort of things should break the law. A good starting point is to think: "What sort of opinions that I think appalling should nonetheless be legal?" For example, I would be vehemently opposed to sharia or any other religious code becaming compulsory for anyone, but I don't think it should be illegal for someone to say he'd favour it.
And yes, the stuff where X is knocked for appearing on a platform with Y on subject Z, where Y turns out to have unpleasant opinions, possibly on some other subject, is several bridges too far.
Obviously, though, nobody has a right to force their opinions on anyone. The NUS can invite whoever they like and are not compelled to invite anyone. They merely shouldn't attempt to block it.
Aside from the nods on the ECHR and free movement, and clear insinuation she'd have got a better deal had she been in charge, most of that speech reads as a conventionally europhile argument.
It really isn't a 'europhile' argument, it's a balanced assessment explaining why she has come down on the Remain side.
It's also interesting as a manifesto to how she would approach the EU if she were to become leader, and a very encouraging one IMO.
A leadership campaign going on in the middle of a referendum doesn't make things any easier. It does take the pressure off Boris though my guess is he's already shot his bolt and it'll be between May and Osborne. But I'm not a Tory so they'll probably surprise everyone and go for IDS
Again a great deal about how the Leave campaign is in dissaray (true), but where's the polling? I don't understand why no-one seems to have commissioned any polls in the wake of Obama's intervention. Why are we doing a post-mortem of how dire this week has been for Leave, when we have no polling evidence to suggest it has been?
When I talk about who has paid for polls I get rebuked on here but it is vital to know who is paying the polling company, they need repeat business. After the GE it was unanimously agreed they were fatally discredited, I wouldn't pay too much attention.
I'm very optimistic, what else can Remain throw at Leave? Perhaps Merkel will fly over to have her say, now that would be funny.
My point is with 8 weeks to go Leave are right in there and fighting, Cameron and Osborne are becoming increasingly derided by Conservatives, it could be that they have badly misjudged this and will appear increasingly desperate.
Cool heads Leavers, Remain didn't plan on it being this close, still everything to play for.
I think Remain will win but at enormous establishment cost.
People are seeing the ugly face of the establishment. By throwing everything behind hectoring the public to the polling booths, they are damaging themselves in the process. It's not just Cameron, Osborne, and the EU it's also big business, and the US and its agenda. This debate is putting everything under the spotlight.
Winning the battle but losing the war is a phrase that springs to mind.
Whatever is wrong with the remain campaign I'd leave the US out of any criticism. Obama has done nothing wrong. Perhaps he could have said 'back to square one' rather than 'back of the queue' but let's be honest, he's basically right. The trade deal would all have to go through congress and they'll want to make sure it's in American interests. All he's done is tell the truth and the atlanticist wing of leave with their mythical worldview doesn't like it. Rather than being able to be a closer partner to the US outside the EU, actually the rest of the world would be less interested in us and so inevitably would the President, whoever that is.
Turkey has been an Associate Member of the EEC and its successors since 1963, which gives some indication of how glacial its progress has been towards actual membership.
Re visa travel, if a deal was agreed on visa-free travel then it should be implemented (although of course that cuts both ways - Turkey has obligations under the deal too). I don't really see the debate there.
Well I think that's a naive view of what's going on at the moment with Turkey and the EU. Erdogan knows he has the EU over a barrel and is asking for visa free travel without any chance of them holding up their side of the bargain, and he knows the EU will give in because they can't handle the 2m migrants that would be let loose into Greece.
You're becoming hysterical and vastly overestimating Erdogan's bargaining position.
The May speech is clever and well-judged in her quest for the leadership (note how she's instantly won Casino's sympathy even though she's for Remain). I'm not sure if it is useful for Remain.
It addresses an audience of floating voters who don't like aspects of the EU but don't necessarily want to leave (Corbyn did the same with a very different floating audience - lefties worried by capitalist Europe). The advantage of this sort of approach is that by definition a floating voters has doubts, and if you say you'll address some of the doubts you're talking their language.
The drawback is that it raises the salience of a relatively obscure aspect of Europe (in the wider sense) which she says doesn't work well. A possible reaction to that is "Well, maybe pulling out altogether would be best, then", especially as it's not clear how practical withdrawal from the Court alone would be.
She doesn't have my sympathy as such ( I don't trust her and her reform proposals don't amount to a hill of beans IMHO) but the politics of her speech is superb.
Obviously, though, nobody has a right to force their opinions on anyone. The NUS can invite whoever they like and are not compelled to invite anyone. They merely shouldn't attempt to block it.
Absolutely, a point often missed by the "I know my rights" crowd, freedom of speech clearly should not be confused with a right to publication. People can invite who they want to their private meetings, but once there should have to accept the rough with the smooth in terms of their audiences reactions to their views. Say something stupid, get ridiculed, say something unsavoury get called out on it. There should be no right to not be offended.
The potential flaw there is that the polls are simply Tory/Labour. The remaining third of the electorate that opt left or right are ignored in reaching a conclusion about accuracy.
Try the same poll analysis but with Right/Left blocs - with Tory/UKIP on the right, LibLabGrn on the left.
Oliver Reid was employed to do a cinema commercial for Bacardi. Just before the shoot he got involved in a fight and spent the night in a Carribean jail.
It was all over the British press and Bacardi fired him. They didn't fire him for being drunk. That was his persona. They fired him because the photo accompanying the story showed him lying on a sunlounger drinking a scotch and soda.
Boris's credibility as a salesperson has been completely shot. Everyone knows he's a clown. No one knew he had no judgement. This referendum is all about which side the voters trust most. Boris has just reduced his celebrity endorsement value to zero.
I had a friend who was being headhunted by Guinness meet three of their execs at Heathrow for lunch. "Like a drink?" "Just half a lager" "Ok, that's half a lager and three halves of Guinness". Needless to say it went no further
seems harsh. Do tobacco companies enforce smoking too?
Or possibly CV's friend was a little dim...
He told the story against himself ruefully admitting it was an unfortunate choice!
Perhaps it was fact that he was a big jessie ordering a half pint.
I was in the bar on my last trip back to the UK easing my way down my habitual pint, when a couple of tossers young executives came into the pub. The first walked up to the bar and asked for "Two halves of lager shandy please", after which his mate piped up "...and make mine a weak one!"... how can you have a weak lager shandy, isn't that called lemonade ?
A typical shandy is half and half. I know people who would have three quarters lemonade as they're driving but want the taste of the beer etc
I know. But take half Fosters (which hardly tastes of anything anyway), add half lemonade, and then dilute with more lemonade, is approaching "why bother" territory. )
I had thought the answer was get the Poms to brew it.
Comments
People are seeing the ugly face of the establishment. By throwing everything behind hectoring the public to the polling booths, they are damaging themselves in the process. It's not just Cameron, Osborne, and the EU it's also big business, and the US and its agenda. This debate is putting everything under the spotlight.
Winning the battle but losing the war is a phrase that springs to mind.
Another is the incredible scrutiny of personal lives by the press, the relatively poor rewards, and the fact that the job of the backbench MP is b.o.r.i.n.g.
@MrHarryCole: IDS attacks "Mr Mandelson in your cashmere coat". Says not about "xenophobia" but "being bullied by big corporates" who want cheapest labour
In practice, it'd be a slow route to Leave as I don't think the public would accept that kind of compromise. Best to be clear one way or the other.
Which very specifically targets Turkey.
I struggle to see circumstances where that referendum would be passed.
Turkey had to meet 30 conditions to get visa free access and... didn't come close, so it's threatening to open the borders again.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7914/turkey-visa-free-travel
“The first is that in the 21st century Britain is too small a country to cope outside the European Union. That’s nonsense. We’re the fifth biggest economy in the world, we’re growing faster than any economy in the G7, we attract nearly a fifth of all foreign investment in the EU, we have a military capable of projecting its power around the world, intelligence services that are second to none, and friendships and alliances that go far beyond Europe. We have the greatest soft power in the world, we sit in exactly the right timezone for global trade and our language is the world’s language. Of course Britain could cope outside the European Union.”
“Free movement rules mean it’s harder to control the volume of European immigration, and that is clearly no good thing.”
Obama's I'm far less sure about. The Remain echo chamber seems to think it's a lottery win, but the only actual prediction has been for a 2 to 3% poll boost.
Visa free travel to the Schengen zone does not equal Associate Membership, unless you think Korea has Associate Membership of the EU.
You did get on 6%-65% at 9/1, I hope?
But if Cameron's crystal ball had foreseen this situation do you think he'd have offered a referendum? You are correct, his reputation is trashed regardless of the outcome.
1 or 2 Remainers are sounding smug but the fat lady hasn't started singing yet.
Would you be remotely surprised for example if Turkey now got Visa free travel despite not meeting any of the 37 conditions that were placed on it as conditions of getting that status ? Once Turkey sees the threat works, its going to get played over and over again.
"Democracy, freedom and the rule of law.... For us, these words have absolutely no value any longer." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Cameron minus 19 (+6)
Corbyn minus 5 (+6)
Farage minus 6 (-4)
Farron minus 8 (+4)
70% say that Cameron is out of touch with ordinary people.
63% disagree that Cameron has sound judgement.
I don't know much about Khan (I know Alan Sugar wrote a piece in the paper) but so far the allegations against him seem like piffle.
Wales seems to be drifting away from Labour quite quickly but because of the heartland Valleys, the scale of the swing is being masked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QF32mxftE
http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/04/theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit-full-text.html?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
What it isn't is an executive role.. Some people become MPs expecting to decide things, and as a former senior manager I did miss that. Even junior Ministers don't decide much. But if you accept that it's an advisory/influencing role, it's terrific.
My betting P&L is not so good because I was a real douchebag on the horses and boat race.
AKA The start of her leadership campaign.
(Or do we only say that about Leavites?)
I have the same objections to all this safespace idiocy, people should have the freedom to expose their unsavoury views, and others the matching freedom to counter them, and to ridicule them. If we keep the nutters out of the limelight, it doesn't stop their unsavoury views, except they are now able to fester unchallenged until they consider doing something about those views.
For my taste the first clause of a British Bill of Right should be a bombproof guarantee of the freedom of speech (accepting that it doesn't incite criminal behaviour).
Renault and Ferrari are also expected to bring upgrades for pace later in the year.
I said this at the time too, it's so bleeding obvious.
Turkey has been an Associate Member of the EEC and its successors since 1963, which gives some indication of how glacial its progress has been towards actual membership.
Re visa travel, if a deal was agreed on visa-free travel then it should be implemented (although of course that cuts both ways - Turkey has obligations under the deal too). I don't really see the debate there.
It addresses an audience of floating voters who don't like aspects of the EU but don't necessarily want to leave (Corbyn did the same with a very different floating audience - lefties worried by capitalist Europe). The advantage of this sort of approach is that by definition a floating voters has doubts, and if you say you'll address some of the doubts you're talking their language.
The drawback is that it raises the salience of a relatively obscure aspect of Europe (in the wider sense) which she says doesn't work well. A possible reaction to that is "Well, maybe pulling out altogether would be best, then", especially as it's not clear how practical withdrawal from the Court alone would be.
Theresa May says EU membership makes the UK safer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36128318
Are the sort of people that were overrepresented for Labour in online polls likely to be the same people as those overrepresented for Leave? Maybe.
Older people tend to vote conservative and tend to be leavers etc
£1 billion boost for social housing as EU public bank warns of risk of Brexit
The European Investment Bank (EIB) has today agreed a £1 billion loan for affordable housing, supporting the building of 20,000 homes, but has warned that leaving the EU could put its future investment in the UK at risk.
The EIB is a crucial source of low-cost financing in the UK, providing £5.6 billion of long-term investment for fifty projects across the country in 2015. It has warned that Brexit would be likely to significantly reduce future lending, pointing to non-EU members Switzerland and Norway who combined have received forty times less investment than the UK in recent years.
Spokesperson for the Liberal Democrat EU referendum campaign Catherine Bearder MEP commented:
"The EU's Investment Bank is playing a key role in building the affordable housing and infrastructure our country so desperately needs.
"Leaving the EU would put this critical investment at risk and worsen the housing crisis affecting millions of people across the UK.
"This is yet another blow to those who want to drag us out of Europe at all costs."
Notes to Editors
EIB investments in the UK totalled £5.6 billion in 2015, a record year since lending began in 1973. This lending supported construction work at 77 schools, five university campuses and four hospitals. It has also upgraded energy links, strengthened water infrastructure with five of the largest water providers in the UK and improved broadband access in rural areas. The bank is now planning another £580m of loans directly to housing associations to build more social housing.
Over the past eight years, the bank has invested 42 times more in the UK than it has in Norway and Switzerland combined, both of which are non-EU members.
The EIB is owned directly by the 28 European Union member states, including a 16% stake held by the UK government. Unlike other European countries, the UK has no national infrastructure bank that could immediately replace the EIB as a source of long-term and low-cost loans.
Paul Haydon
Press Officer | Catherine Bearder MEP
Aside from the nods on the ECHR and free movement, and clear insinuation she'd have got a better deal had she been in charge, most of that speech reads as a conventionally europhile argument.
And yes, the stuff where X is knocked for appearing on a platform with Y on subject Z, where Y turns out to have unpleasant opinions, possibly on some other subject, is several bridges too far.
Obviously, though, nobody has a right to force their opinions on anyone. The NUS can invite whoever they like and are not compelled to invite anyone. They merely shouldn't attempt to block it.
Its WAY too long and technical for any of the public to be remotely interested.
It's much too arcane to be worth more than a passing mention in a journalist's article
Most of the people it affects probably wont understand that it affects them (see arcane).
Its like a press release give by a professor of public policy expecting it to be read by his peers.
This wouild mean free trade and visa free travel but not having to go along with the rest of the rules.
It's also interesting as a manifesto to how she would approach the EU if she were to become leader, and a very encouraging one IMO.
Press releases go to the press not to the public.
Try the same poll analysis but with Right/Left blocs - with Tory/UKIP on the right, LibLabGrn on the left.
So annoying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOR2jGv2uc