I think May sort of coming out for Remain is a bit of a kick in the nads for the Leave campaign. They really do need some heavy weights to step up now.
Hannan is the man for me. I appreciate he is only widely known to us anoraks, but that means he is not burdened with the 'can't stand that bloke/woman' as May or Farage would be.
Also a bloke campaigning to lose his own job must be viewed as honest!
John Redwood is miles better than Hannan in arguing the case for OUT. Hannan has been frothing too much and lacking sensible arguments.
Neither of them is able to make the emotional argument which will be what will matter in the campaign. Scoring debating points doesn't win many votes.
Agree,that's why I had hope for Theresa may was that person but isam's michael portillo leading the out cause would also be a good selection.
Just hope if the person comes forward,All the out movement gets behind that person.
I agree. Also, one of the joys about Portillo is that he is anything but frothing. If anything, he's too cerebral these days. Nevertheless, he's articulate, intelligent, and loves Europe (the continent, not the EU).
Beeb website "most read" news EU referendum 10th.behind, amongst others: STD Zika transmission in Texas at 1, campsite singles ban at 3, music shop owner found dead in car boot in Birmigham at 9.
Beeb website "most read" news EU referendum 10th.behind, amongst others: STD Zika transmission in Texas at 1, campsite singles ban at 3, music shop owner found dead in car boot in Birmigham at 9.
Hmm
The music shop owner story could be interesting. Will be right back...
The red card is reasonable What would be unreasonable is if one government elected by 37 per cent of nine per cent of the EU could tell the rest what it couldn't do In or out, and in means in and out means out!
W.
A
It's not just a bad deal, it's a bizarrely bad deal.
Cameron must know this, which makes his lies all the more unpalatable.
A
Q
I've been a huge Cameron fan for 10 years now, this is the first time he's really messed up since he became PM.
I've belatedly realised that I'm no longer a Conservative, based on the idea that the Cabinet are (seemingly) all in favour of this non-deal. I don't like Farage, so...hmm.
You are a Conservative, like millions of grassroot voters and members who think as you and I do.
Don't be put off by the group-think of the shameless careerists in the cabinet.
Again, why do you assume they are shameless careerists? Maybe they just were never as eurosceptic as you thought or indeed they may have presented? That would be wrong of them, if they gave indications they might consider they other side, but they may still be voting with ther consciences on this one, rather than against them.
It's your second question that proves the first.
Yes, but in the opposite direction. The assumption seems to be that there are these die hard Eurosceptics who are bottling up their true thoughts and voting to remain because they are gutless. The truth may be they were always likely remainders who toyed with Leave because they feared not appearing to be eurosceptic.
I don't think you're disagreeing with me; I agree with your last sentence.
But I also think some others have responded to incentives, prioritised their careers and rationalised the decision accordingly.
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
Trump is a sort of court jester, saying lateral things, a useful function, and making people think, but lacking finesse. Lordy, lordy, It looks as if Iowans may have more sense that some thought.
More sense or more religion?
My experience of Iowa is that it's down-to-Earth in an old-fashioned homespun Protestant sort of way. Bill Bryson is very good on Iowa. He comes from there. Iowa is slightly different as, I find, is Cornwall over here.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
I think May sort of coming out for Remain is a bit of a kick in the nads for the Leave campaign. They really do need some heavy weights to step up now.
Hannan is the man for me. I appreciate he is only widely known to us anoraks, but that means he is not burdened with the 'can't stand that bloke/woman' as May or Farage would be.
Also a bloke campaigning to lose his own job must be viewed as honest!
John Redwood is miles better than Hannan in arguing the case for OUT. Hannan has been frothing too much and lacking sensible arguments.
Neither of them is able to make the emotional argument which will be what will matter in the campaign. Scoring debating points doesn't win many votes.
Agree,that's why I had hope for Theresa may was that person but isam's michael portillo leading the out cause would also be a good selection.
Just hope if the person comes forward,All the out movement gets behind that person.
I agree. Also, one of the joys about Portillo is that he is anything but frothing. If anything, he's too cerebral these days. Nevertheless, he's articulate, intelligent, and loves Europe (the continent, not the EU).
Beeb website "most read" news EU referendum 10th.behind, amongst others: STD Zika transmission in Texas at 1, campsite singles ban at 3, music shop owner found dead in car boot in Birmigham at 9.
Hmm
The music shop owner story could be interesting. Will be right back...
Police treating death as suspicious. No shit Sherlock, how many people lock themselves in a car boot and happen to die of natural causes?
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
That was classic television. How did Dimbleby think he'd get away with an Eton joke when he sent his own son there?
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
The red card is reasonable What would be unreasonable is if one government elected by 37 per cent of nine per cent of the EU could tell the rest what it couldn't do In or out, and in means in and out means out!
W.
A
It's not just a bad deal, it's a bizarrely bad deal.
Cameron must know this, which makes his lies all the more unpalatable.
A
Q
I've been a huge Cameron fan for 10 years now, this is the first time he's really messed up since he became PM.
I've belatedly realised that I'm no longer a Conservative, based on the idea that the Cabinet are (seemingly) all in favour of this non-deal. I don't like Farage, so...hmm.
You are a Conservative, like millions of grassroot voters and members who think as you and I do.
Don't be put off by the group-think of the shameless careerists in the cabinet.
Again, why do you assume they are shameless careerists? Maybe they just were never as eurosceptic as you thought or indeed they may have presented? That would be wrong of them, if they gave indications they might consider they other side, but they may still be voting with ther consciences on this one, rather than against them.
It's your second question that proves the first.
Yes, but in the opposite direction. The assumption seems to be that there are these die hard Eurosceptics who are bottling up their true thoughts and voting to remain because they are gutless. The truth may be they were always likely remainders who toyed with Leave because they feared not appearing to be eurosceptic.
I don't think you're disagreeing with me; I agree with your last sentence.
But I also think some others have responded to incentives, prioritised their careers and rationalised the decision accordingly.
Yes - it's more a semantic thing I was concerned about, that while some may have gone from leave to remain to prioritise their career, I think that it might be a mistake to assume that is the case for all of them.
As for the EU referendum, if you take the view the whole purpose of the exercise was to keep the Conservative Party together, Cameron's done fairly well.
Beeb website "most read" news EU referendum 10th.behind, amongst others: STD Zika transmission in Texas at 1, campsite singles ban at 3, music shop owner found dead in car boot in Birmigham at 9.
Hmm
The music shop owner story could be interesting. Will be right back...
Police treating death as suspicious. No shit Sherlock, how many people lock themselves in a car boot and happen to die of natural causes?
''As for the EU referendum, if you take the view the whole purpose of the exercise was to keep the Conservative Party together, Cameron's done fairly well.''
Cameron has only postponed the split. The sight of him sharing a platform on this 'deal' with labour and liberal luminaries, European big wigs and other worthies will, I suspect, cause massive bitterness lower down. And judging from on here, tory voters will be very angry too.
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
Seriously though, Leave needs someone that doesn't just appeal to right-wingers.
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
Seriously though, Leave needs someone that doesn't just appeal to right-wingers.
Instead of 27 countries deciding what's good for us it only now requires sixteen countries .... To decide what's good for us....... So long as it's done within 8 weeks ........ and then only if the EU agrees ...... If it's good for us.
Well......Way to go heartbeat ..!! Back of the net !! Alternatively to quote a phrase in a French accent......
"Monsieur....you are week week week...... I feart in your deerection."
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
Seriously though, Leave needs someone that doesn't just appeal to right-wingers.
Why is May saying it is the "basis of a deal". Isn't this the deal?
No - negotiations to continue. For example the duration an emergency brake lasts just had an X in its place in the draft memo. But Cameron once again negotiating badly by already defending this version and saying its got everything he wanted in it.
I'm at a complete loss to understand the PMs position here. He's an intelligent and experienced politician yet he has failed negotiation 101 with this deal.
Only if you believe he really ever wanted anything substantive out of it. Otherwise it has gone exactly as he wanted.
i agree with others that he CLEARLY wanted something substantive. Who wouldn't.
Sorry, I can't accept this. Any vigorous defender of Britain's interest would have got several miles down the road already, without any negotiation. They would have raised merry hell over EU laws they didn't like, rather than quietly signing them into British law with no references to the EU. They could have already got these 'negotiating points' covered years ago and be on to the next thing. We probably wouldn't even need a referendum with someone like that as PM.
Treachery is an unhelpful word, I think Cameron and Osborne simply understand 'the system' and are working within it to their own benefit. Be an anti-establishment rebel, and you will face all sorts of brickbats, ranging from whispering campaigns and low level harassment, through blackmail, to, in extremis, a nasty car accident or heart attack. (tinfoil comments taken as read, please don't bother)
Another tactic would be straightforward and put the boot on the other foot. Withhold all payments to the EU and refuse to countenance any fines. Tell them we'll catch up with our payments without fines or interest once serious concessions are negotiated. If they don't want to give such concessions, they would be forced to kick us out.
Playing within the rules is not the way to get fundamental changes.
''As for the EU referendum, if you take the view the whole purpose of the exercise was to keep the Conservative Party together, Cameron's done fairly well.''
Cameron has only postponed the split. The sight of him sharing a platform on this 'deal' with labour and liberal luminaries, European big wigs and other worthies will, I suspect, cause massive bitterness lower down. And judging from on here, tory voters will be very angry too.
Given how far back the divisions in the Tory party date, and the fact that he's managed to postpone any reckoning beyond the Labour party's Corbynocalypse, you've have to chalk that up as a massive political achievement.
Beeb website "most read" news EU referendum 10th.behind, amongst others: STD Zika transmission in Texas at 1, campsite singles ban at 3, music shop owner found dead in car boot in Birmigham at 9.
Hmm
The music shop owner story could be interesting. Will be right back...
Police treating death as suspicious. No shit Sherlock, how many people lock themselves in a car boot and happen to die of natural causes?
Apparently, he was about to come out for Leave.
Well in common with Cameron he wouldn't have been able to pull the emergency handbrake from where he was on his own.
All this lawmaking stems initially from Treaties agreed unanimously, and with whatever opt-outs are signed in to get agreement, from national governments. So still in all of this, the theory is that the UK government (and nation states in general) have the whip hand in what the EU is tasked with running and, in a good many cases, which bits you sign up for.
This isn't true, and puts the remainder of your questions in perspective. The ECJ has since it's inception been good a grabbing power that wasn't given to it by any treaty or accord. Most famously consider the Van Gend en Loos case in which the ECJ arrived at the principle of "direct effect" giving community law supremacy over national law, and in the Costa case it decided that member states had definitively transferred sovereign rights to the Community and Union law could not be overridden by domestic law. These were decisions of the court, not provisions of treaties, and fundamentally changed the way the EU works and behaves. A number of national constitutional courts, notably from Germany and Belgium have criticised the ECJ as leading to a "government by the judges"
FPT: So, the latter of these two cases is dated 1964 - the test of ECJ's jurisdiction was done early doors before Britain even joined and basically say that if the nation signs up to EU law and the legal institutions set up specifically to rule on EU law, they cannot unilaterally withdraw simply by later enacting contradictory national law. This seems to me to be fair enough and the UK knew of these judgements when they entered the EU. Nothing here alters the fact that a nation first has to sign itself up to the rules before being bound by them. And the way to sort EU laws that you have willingly signed up to but don't like is to, within the EU, either negotiate your way out of them, or get them amended.
In other breaking news, John Profumo is a very naughty boy.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
''As for the EU referendum, if you take the view the whole purpose of the exercise was to keep the Conservative Party together, Cameron's done fairly well.''
Cameron has only postponed the split. The sight of him sharing a platform on this 'deal' with labour and liberal luminaries, European big wigs and other worthies will, I suspect, cause massive bitterness lower down. And judging from on here, tory voters will be very angry too.
Closing down the option for any eurosceptic party member to support a credible senior Tory, when the party is split down the middle, seems to me to be the height of recklessness.
So is Leicester v Liverpool. Jamie Vardy with a goal of the season contender separates the two sides and keeps the improbable dream alive at the top of the table.
So is Leicester v Liverpool. Jamie Vardy with a goal of the season contender separates the two sides and keeps the improbable dream alive at the top of the table.
Arsenal probably should be two up, but goodness Southampton is playing with guts. Really exciting stuff...
Instead of 27 countries deciding what's good for us it only now requires sixteen countries .... To decide what's good for us....... So long as it's done within 8 weeks ........ and then only if the EU agrees ...... If it's good for us.
Well......Way to go heartbeat ..!! Back of the net !! Alternatively to quote a phrase in a French accent......
"Monsieur....you are week week week...... I feart in your deerection."
As someone pointed out QMV only requires 35% so for at least some areas of legislation tis is actually worse than the existing arrangements.
So is Leicester v Liverpool. Jamie Vardy with a goal of the season contender separates the two sides and keeps the improbable dream alive at the top of the table.
Arsenal probably should be two up, but goodness Southampton is playing with guts. Really exciting stuff...
They'll need to add 7 or 8 minutes of injury time on too...
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
Agree entirely, certainly wasn't expecting both a bum deal and a cabinet stitch-up behind it.
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
Seriously though, Leave needs someone that doesn't just appeal to right-wingers.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
Agree entirely, certainly wasn't expecting both a bum deal and a cabinet stitch-up behind it.
Neither was I.
I'm struggling to reach any conclusion other than Conservative euroscepticism begins and ends in opposition.
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
Seriously though, Leave needs someone that doesn't just appeal to right-wingers.
Kelvin Hopkins would be a good choice.
Just so long as no one gets confused and chooses Katie Hopkins
Leave could do worse than someone like David Starkey. He would capture the tell-it-like-it-is zeitgeist and has something of Trump's talent for delivering calculated shocks.
If we are going with starkey who would proberly frighten half the electorate,why not jacob rees-mogg ;-)
What about Jose Mourinho?
I was kidding about jacob rees-mogg but I hope he joins the out campaign,he one of the best debaters ,I use to think of him as a joke until I have seen him in the commons,newsnight and QT ,Good in debates and in interviews.
He is great value, his put down of Dimbleby was classic
Seriously though, Leave needs someone that doesn't just appeal to right-wingers.
Kelvin Hopkins would be a good choice.
Just so long as no one gets confused and chooses Katie Hopkins
No offence to the Leavers, but shouldn't this have been thought through before calling incessantly for a referendum?
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
The red card is reasonable What would be unreasonable is if one government elected by 37 per cent of nine per cent of the EU could tell the rest what it couldn't do In or out, and in means in and out means out!
What's not reasonable is for the Eurozone to pass whatever it wants without checks. Soon Eurozone will be its own superstate, and will be able to dictate to all other EU members the way things are.
And all that Cameron has achieved, on that front, is that when we feel the City or the UK is suffering from discriminatory, pro-eurozone legislation, we can now have the issue "escalated", so it is more "widely discussed". That's it. The eurozone can still pass the law. We have no real leverage. Nothing. He has spent a year negotiating precisely nothing.
It's not just a bad deal, it's a bizarrely bad deal.
Cameron must know this, which makes his lies all the more unpalatable.
Isn't it even worse than that? This "deal" appears to have conceded that we can be discriminated against on "objective" grounds. So the UK can't, for instance, discriminate in favour of British citizens on "objective" grounds" but the entire Eurozone can discriminate against the UK on "objective" grounds.
And guess what, not being in the euro will be an objective ground for discriminating against us.
I think that leaving the EU will not be easy. And life outside may be tough. We can and will cope and can and will thrive. Unlike @SeanT I am not bothered about Scotland. And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market. But this so-called deal is pathetic and, as Mr Meeks put it, "meh".
The Leave campaign is all over the place. The Remain campaign is just doing a rerun of Wilson's campaign all those years ago. The fundamental dishonesty about the EU's direction of travel remains (not from the EU BTW but from its supporters in the UK). On the whole - and despite many good aspects of the EU, I think there is a fundamental divergence between how the UK thinks about matters and how most EU states and the EU itself think about the world and it would be better for both parties for them to go their separate ways and have a looser association.
We will lose influence in Brussels. But, frankly, we appear to have vanishingly little influence in Brussels as it is so I cannot see the loss of something infinitesimally small as something to be worried about.
I expect Remain to win. The Remain campaign will pretend that a vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo with a few tweaks. A big fat lie. But Big Fat Lies work in politics. I hope the Leave vote will be as large as possible, if only to give those in charge a bit of a fright.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
Too left wing for me. I mourn the untimely passing of their libertarian years.
The red card is reasonable What would be unreasonable is if one government elected by 37 per cent of nine per cent of the EU could tell the rest what it couldn't do In or out, and in means in and out means out!
.
And all that Cameron has achieved, on that front, is that when we feel the City or the UK is suffering from discriminatory, pro-eurozone legislation, we can now have the issue "escalated", so it is more "widely discussed". That's it. The eurozone can still pass the law. We have no real leverage. Nothing. He has spent a year negotiating precisely nothing.
It's not just a bad deal, it's a bizarrely bad deal.
Cameron must know this, which makes his lies all the more unpalatable.
Isn't it even worse than that? This "deal" appears to have conceded that we can be discriminated against on "objective" grounds. So the UK can't, for instance, discriminate in favour of British citizens on "objective" grounds" but the entire Eurozone can discriminate against the UK on "objective" grounds.
And guess what, not being in the euro will be an objective ground for discriminating against us.
I think that leaving the EU will not be easy. And life outside may be tough. We can and will cope and can and will thrive. Unlike @SeanT I am not bothered about Scotland. And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market. But this so-called deal is pathetic and, as Mr Meeks put it, "meh".
The Leave campaign is all over the place. The Remain campaign is just doing a rerun of Wilson's campaign all those years ago. The fundamental dishonesty about the EU's direction of travel remains (not from the EU BTW but from its supporters in the UK). On the whole - and despite many good aspects of the EU, I think there is a fundamental divergence between how the UK thinks about matters and how most EU states and the EU itself think about the world and it would be better for both parties for them to go their separate ways and have a looser association.
We will lose influence in Brussels. But, frankly, we appear to have vanishingly little influence in Brussels as it is so I cannot see the loss of something infinitesimally small as something to be worried about.
I expect Remain to win. The Remain campaign will pretend that a vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo with a few tweaks. A big fat lie. But Big Fat Lies work in politics. I hope the Leave vote will be as large as possible, if only to give those in charge a bit of a fright.
Interesting times.......
A woman with balls.
I wish the Conservative Party had someone like you.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
Too left wing for me. I mourn the untimely passing of their libertarian years.
It was never going to last; the wealthy, healthy childless are not large enough to merit their own party.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.
UKIP support is up slightly compared to the general election when you look at the opinion polls.
"If these candidates have traction, it’s because over the last two decades our political elites, themselves almost entirely white, have decided, for different reasons, that the white middle class has no role to play in the multicultural, globalized future they envision, a future that they believe they will run." - middle class in the American sense of course.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
So did most of the voters, UKIP won those European elections, Labour was second, the Tories third
Just received a pop-up messages saying that Betfair and Paddy Power have merged to form Paddy Power Betfair plc.
Betfair exchange and Paddy Power are both pretty good. No need for the Betfair Sportsbook now, I'm even more restricted on that thing than Paddy anyway !
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
Too left wing for me. I mourn the untimely passing of their libertarian years.
It was never going to last; the wealthy, healthy childless are not large enough to merit their own party.
I am Libertarian and am neither Wealthy or Childless. I am not even that healthy.
"If these candidates have traction, it’s because over the last two decades our political elites, themselves almost entirely white, have decided, for different reasons, that the white middle class has no role to play in the multicultural, globalized future they envision, a future that they believe they will run." - middle class in the American sense of course.
What that really means is international bureaucrats, populist politicans like Trump, Cruz and Sanders have been the reaction to them on issues like immigration and Wall Street greed
'Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.'
I'm afraid it's 1992-97 all over again, with the Conservative leadership abandoning its supporters and doing utterly stupid things.
I feel I may have voted Conservative for the last time.
A real problem for Leave is that Cameron has successfully sucked all the air out of the bubble as far as well-known figures goes, so that a would-be Tory rebel faces joining a campaign where almost the only figure that anyone has heard of is Farage. I think a Boris or a May would have drawn in quite a few in their wake, but as things stand, ambitious MPs may decide to ride this one out without taking strong position.
On the Labour side, the front-bench strategy is going to be to say yes, the EU isn't great, but vote Remain to give a basis to work on, and vote Labour next time to get a decent social Europe with a much stronger democratic element, less in hock to multinational companies. We won't be going anywhere near any joint platforms - it's not remotely in either Remain's or Labour's interest.
As a Europhile I think the basic problem is that our negotiating strategy has been too scattergun and we've made a habit of being awkward for no obvious reason (what was really so bad about Juncker, an instinctively do-little conservative, that we fought to the death to stop him?). If we'd said for years that we had two or three main reform needs and we'd be glad to help for anything else, we'd have built up a decent alliance structure by now.
Incidentally, my understanding from Eurosceptic friends is that there is a third Leave faction preparing to launch, arguing that it avoids the snags of the other two. But I don't think they're going to be public till March, which is probably too late to get official standing.
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
There's so much to do, and so little time.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions )
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
There's so much to do, and so little time.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions )
Dagenham & Redbridge have been in the League for years!
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.
UKIP support is up slightly compared to the general election when you look at the opinion polls.
UKIP support is down slightly compared to the GE in telephone polls , it is down even more in council by elections since the GE .
Second best of the season. Alli v Palace beats it.
I'd typed that too but thought it went without saying... Alli taken off at half time as 'felt ill' and yet did the press comms after the game.. perhaps his yellow card tally and the Man C game was another reason??
I've watched that goal more times than the exit poll from May 15...
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
There's so much to do, and so little time.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions )
Dagenham & Redbridge have been in the League for years!
You're right, we go down to the Isthmian League (North and South)
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
There is a story that Hillarys personal email server issue is about to look a lot worse shortly.
Same story for about the last year, most voters have now made up their minds on her emails, unless she ends up in jail I can't see much changing
She'd probably still argue, "What difference does it make?" and try to govern from Cell Block H.
Oh, are we playing that game where you have to smuggle the titles of Smiths tracks into your posts? Anyway, Cameron is hand in glove with the Eurocrats to try and stitch us all up.
'Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.'
I'm afraid it's 1992-97 all over again, with the Conservative leadership abandoning its supporters and doing utterly stupid things.
I feel I may have voted Conservative for the last time.
I will never, for the foreseeable future, vote Tory again.... unless, of course, the alternative is a Labour government led by the likes of Corbyn,
I have no choice in that situation but to vote anti-Corbyn. Meh.
Cameron or Corbyn... not much of a choice in a marginal, is it?
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
lol: I like both kinds of music, country *and* western
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
There's so much to do, and so little time.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions )
Dagenham & Redbridge have been in the League for years!
And Dulwich Hamlet got upgraded when I wasn't watching
'Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.'
I'm afraid it's 1992-97 all over again, with the Conservative leadership abandoning its supporters and doing utterly stupid things.
I feel I may have voted Conservative for the last time.
I will never, for the foreseeable future, vote Tory again.... unless, of course, the alternative is a Labour government led by the likes of Corbyn,
I have no choice in that situation but to vote anti-Corbyn. Meh.
You live in Holborn and St Pancras do you not? So your vote will never elect a Tory MP anyway even if Cameron won a landslide, so you may as well vote UKIP!
I wish the Conservative Party had someone like you.
Yes. I wouldn't wish public office on Cyclefree, but I would vote for her.
Thank you,
(Far too many skeletons in my cupboard - the results of a rather fun life and one which I intend continuing, with as much fun as possible, for as long as possible. Not that I'm bothered by the skeletons - politicians without courage are like bicycles without wheels: neither use nor ornament - but the big jessies who run our political parties are bothered by anything which suggests a life well lived.)
PS I know an absolutely filthy joke about women with balls. But it would turn @TSE's hair white. So I will refrain. I would need to know you very well indeed to share it.......
Inasmuch as any polls can be trusted, I wonder if Labour might rise a little, or at least the Tories lead dip, off the back of the coming much bloody Tory mess (if most senior figures are for Remain the intra cabinet fight might be minimised, but the members vs leadership fight seems very bitter indeed on this one, or has potential to be) - they have finally had the opportunity to sit back and let the Tories create their own problems.
One thing we know, is that this is the day the Tory post-election honeymoon came to an end. With a bang.
I find it impossible to get excited about this hiatus. Always coming and sooner it's put to bed the better to leave a gap until next election. If a few EU outers go Reckless so be it, to team builder and multi-election winner Farage?
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54rhgUrzOXM#t=2m32s
There must be an EU deal worth fighting for ! (Skip to 3:15)
Will be right back...
But I also think some others have responded to incentives, prioritised their careers and rationalised the decision accordingly.
Currently evens, which matches betfair.
For anyone looking to bet 5 figures+ against Hillary, this is a decent option - but at a bookmaker with a UK gambling license!
I did tip this bet at pinnacle when it was 2.28 a month ago.
I'm not sure i'd lay Clinton at evens, but it's great to have the option.
Cameron has only postponed the split. The sight of him sharing a platform on this 'deal' with labour and liberal luminaries, European big wigs and other worthies will, I suspect, cause massive bitterness lower down. And judging from on here, tory voters will be very angry too.
Instead of 27 countries deciding what's good for us it only now requires sixteen countries .... To decide what's good for us....... So long as it's done within 8 weeks ........ and then only if the EU agrees ...... If it's good for us.
Well......Way to go heartbeat ..!! Back of the net !! Alternatively to quote a phrase in a French accent......
"Monsieur....you are week week week...... I feart in your deerection."
Playing within the rules is not the way to get fundamental changes.
In other breaking news, John Profumo is a very naughty boy.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
I'm struggling to reach any conclusion other than Conservative euroscepticism begins and ends in opposition.
And bloody Spurs are still bloody 4th!
But full credit to Southampton, they defended brilliantly.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/02/camerons-vanishing-renegotiation.html
And guess what, not being in the euro will be an objective ground for discriminating against us.
I think that leaving the EU will not be easy. And life outside may be tough. We can and will cope and can and will thrive. Unlike @SeanT I am not bothered about Scotland. And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market. But this so-called deal is pathetic and, as Mr Meeks put it, "meh".
The Leave campaign is all over the place. The Remain campaign is just doing a rerun of Wilson's campaign all those years ago. The fundamental dishonesty about the EU's direction of travel remains (not from the EU BTW but from its supporters in the UK). On the whole - and despite many good aspects of the EU, I think there is a fundamental divergence between how the UK thinks about matters and how most EU states and the EU itself think about the world and it would be better for both parties for them to go their separate ways and have a looser association.
We will lose influence in Brussels. But, frankly, we appear to have vanishingly little influence in Brussels as it is so I cannot see the loss of something infinitesimally small as something to be worried about.
I expect Remain to win. The Remain campaign will pretend that a vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo with a few tweaks. A big fat lie. But Big Fat Lies work in politics. I hope the Leave vote will be as large as possible, if only to give those in charge a bit of a fright.
Interesting times.......
Khan vs Canelo..Frank to unretire??
I wish the Conservative Party had someone like you.
(Sorry to inflict on you all)
https://twitter.com/bloggerheads/status/693818465086488576/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
My current app covers tennis, cricket, rugby and the four American sports. Possibly more but that's enough for me
what a blinder....
exits stage.
I'm afraid it's 1992-97 all over again, with the Conservative leadership abandoning its supporters and doing utterly stupid things.
I feel I may have voted Conservative for the last time.
On the Labour side, the front-bench strategy is going to be to say yes, the EU isn't great, but vote Remain to give a basis to work on, and vote Labour next time to get a decent social Europe with a much stronger democratic element, less in hock to multinational companies. We won't be going anywhere near any joint platforms - it's not remotely in either Remain's or Labour's interest.
As a Europhile I think the basic problem is that our negotiating strategy has been too scattergun and we've made a habit of being awkward for no obvious reason (what was really so bad about Juncker, an instinctively do-little conservative, that we fought to the death to stop him?). If we'd said for years that we had two or three main reform needs and we'd be glad to help for anything else, we'd have built up a decent alliance structure by now.
Incidentally, my understanding from Eurosceptic friends is that there is a third Leave faction preparing to launch, arguing that it avoids the snags of the other two. But I don't think they're going to be public till March, which is probably too late to get official standing.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions
I've watched that goal more times than the exit poll from May 15...
(Far too many skeletons in my cupboard - the results of a rather fun life and one which I intend continuing, with as much fun as possible, for as long as possible. Not that I'm bothered by the skeletons - politicians without courage are like bicycles without wheels: neither use nor ornament - but the big jessies who run our political parties are bothered by anything which suggests a life well lived.)
PS I know an absolutely filthy joke about women with balls. But it would turn @TSE's hair white. So I will refrain. I would need to know you very well indeed to share it.......
Good night all.