Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
Corbynista? Moi?
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
There's so much to do, and so little time.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions )
Dagenham & Redbridge have been in the League for years!
And Dulwich Hamlet got upgraded when I wasn't watching
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
Add sports other than football and I'll switch
The model is infinitely scalable (maybe not horse racing and golf), so we'll be adding more soon
Actually Robert, I've yet to come across a decent horse racing results service that does results quickly, without fuss, on a smartphone. Might be something to look at.
There's so much to do, and so little time.
My immediate priority is to get football working down to amateur level in the UK. People submit scores to us from Dagenham and Redbridge vs Dulwich Village, but there's no reason not to support even smaller teams. I love the idea of my kid's football game scores being available next to Man Utd.
Ultimately, we'd like to be able to use fans to get all data on all sports worldwide. And I believe it's an achievable goal. (I'm an entrepreneur at heart, so you'll excuse by grandiose visions )
My grandson is playing for Wycombe Wanderers U-10s at Gillingham soon, I'll text you the score updates!
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
Viewcode - you will make an excellent Pro-EU drone!
A real problem for Leave is that Cameron has successfully sucked all the air out of the bubble as far as well-known figures goes, so that a would-be Tory rebel faces joining a campaign where almost the only figure that anyone has heard of is Farage. I think a Boris or a May would have drawn in quite a few in their wake, but as things stand, ambitious MPs may decide to ride this one out without taking strong position.
On the Labour side, the front-bench strategy is going to be to say yes, the EU isn't great, but vote Remain to give a basis to work on, and vote Labour next time to get a decent social Europe with a much stronger democratic element, less in hock to multinational companies. We won't be going anywhere near any joint platforms - it's not remotely in either Remain's or Labour's interest.
As a Europhile I think the basic problem is that our negotiating strategy has been too scattergun and we've made a habit of being awkward for no obvious reason (what was really so bad about Juncker, an instinctively do-little conservative, that we fought to the death to stop him?). If we'd said for years that we had two or three main reform needs and we'd be glad to help for anything else, we'd have built up a decent alliance structure by now.
Incidentally, my understanding from Eurosceptic friends is that there is a third Leave faction preparing to launch, arguing that it avoids the snags of the other two. But I don't think they're going to be public till March, which is probably too late to get official standing.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
I love Lawson - on many issues - but he's too old for this.
A real problem for Leave is that Cameron has successfully sucked all the air out of the bubble as far as well-known figures goes, so that a would-be Tory rebel faces joining a campaign where almost the only figure that anyone has heard of is Farage. I think a Boris or a May would have drawn in quite a few in their wake, but as things stand, ambitious MPs may decide to ride this one out without taking strong position.
On the Labour side, the front-bench strategy is going to be to say yes, the EU isn't great, but vote Remain to give a basis to work on, and vote Labour next time to get a decent social Europe with a much stronger democratic element, less in hock to multinational companies. We won't be going anywhere near any joint platforms - it's not remotely in either Remain's or Labour's interest.
As a Europhile I think the basic problem is that our negotiating strategy has been too scattergun and we've made a habit of being awkward for no obvious reason (what was really so bad about Juncker, an instinctively do-little conservative, that we fought to the death to stop him?). If we'd said for years that we had two or three main reform needs and we'd be glad to help for anything else, we'd have built up a decent alliance structure by now.
Incidentally, my understanding from Eurosceptic friends is that there is a third Leave faction preparing to launch, arguing that it avoids the snags of the other two. But I don't think they're going to be public till March, which is probably too late to get official standing.
How? The EU is a corporatist racket. The idea of a social Europe is a con. There are 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels. A Labour government will not be able to stop the relentless lobbying. The corporations the lobbyists represent can be found at nearly every stage of the process required to form new laws and policies.
One thing we know, is that this is the day the Tory post-election honeymoon came to an end. With a bang.
I find it impossible to get excited about this hiatus. Always coming and sooner it's put to bed the better to leave a gap until next election. If a few EU outers go Reckless so be it, to team builder and multi-election winner Farage?
Fair enough, now f*ck off. Europhile Tories are the pedophiles of politics. Not wanted. All you do is lie and *fiddle about*
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
Corbynista? Moi?
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
Well compared to most of PB then you are a gold card member of the Corbyn fan club!
Rather apposite the Eurosceptic right getting screwed by Cameron since they have taken great pleasure in Cameron screwing everyone else, not least the Lib Dems.
Rather apposite the Eurosceptic right getting screwed by Cameron since they have taken great pleasure in Cameron screwing everyone else, not least the Lib Dems.
Well, he's a good screwer, it seems. He's still an ok PM - but unless he's got more lined up, he's not really made a good opening gambit on this issue, even acknowledging there are plenty who would never consider anything he got worthwhile.
The dripping wet Liddington is on Newsnight. They will need several towels to mop up the mess he will leave behind. If only Paxman was quizzing him rather than Evan.
Rather apposite the Eurosceptic right getting screwed by Cameron since they have taken great pleasure in Cameron screwing everyone else, not least the Lib Dems.
It's a truism that we hate it when our leaders become successful. The list of groups of people they've done over politically gets longer with every year.
We can cope and thrive in the EU. Dislocation costs of leaving and reestablishing the original position, the uncertainty costs in the meantime, combined with the opportunity costs of spending the next two-three years Brexiting instead of doing something profitable, make a Brexit a costly indulgence.
And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market.
As some of you know, I am currently selling my flat. Some of the numbers on my spreadsheet have six figures. Disruptions and indulgences in the housing market have real implications for me.
LOL, Cameron is now being accused of wanting a 'quick deal'!
That's by the people who for the last seven years have been saying we must have a referendum NOW, and laying into him for not instantly providing it!
Politics is hilarious.
Yes, this ridiculous flailing around by the sceptics is demeaning the cause. I expected clarity and coherence, but they seem consumed with panic. Why, when the case should be almost irrefutable? Fear does that.
Yes, this ridiculous flailing around by the sceptics is demeaning the cause. I expected clarity and coherence, but they seem consumed with panic. Why, when the case should be almost irrefutable? Fear does that.
It's really odd. From the reaction, you'd think they were in a complete panic because Cameron's deal was too good.
The correct reaction, if they wanted to maximise the Leave vote, would be a sorrowful "the PM has done as good a job as anyone could do, but the EU is clearly not prepared to listen to the UK."
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
Corbynista? Moi?
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
Well compared to most of PB then you are a gold card member of the Corbyn fan club!
I am satisfied that the Tories have been in the lead in every opinion poll since he became leader!
Cmaeron, ffs, have the balls to say that the deal is crap, and you are going to recommend Leave. You too Jezza.
Jezza could do worse now than demand withdrawal from the EU. So exploding are the Outers, he could create his own Princess Diana moment and have them storm Downing Street for him.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
Assuming that Cameron wins the referendum it will be the final act in absorbing the entirety of the Blair coalition. The next election ought to be a Tory landslide, while any post-referendum boost to UKIP could put the Corbynite Labour party in existential danger.
Yes, this ridiculous flailing around by the sceptics is demeaning the cause. I expected clarity and coherence, but they seem consumed with panic. Why, when the case should be almost irrefutable? Fear does that.
It's really odd. From the reaction, you'd think they were in a complete panic because Cameron's deal was too good.
The correct reaction, if they wanted to maximise the Leave vote, would be a sorrowful "the PM has done as good a job as anyone could do, but the EU is clearly not prepared to listen to the UK."
Through careful consideration, weighing up the pros and cons, Richard has - against the odds and surprising a great many - decided to back Cameron 100%.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
We can cope and thrive in the EU. Dislocation costs of leaving and reestablishing the original position, the uncertainty costs in the meantime, combined with the opportunity costs of spending the next two-three years Brexiting instead of doing something profitable, make a Brexit a costly indulgence.
And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market.
As some of you know, I am currently selling my flat. Some of the numbers on my spreadsheet have six figures. Disruptions and indulgences in the housing market have real implications for me.
Just because something is difficult and costly in the short-term does not mean that it should not be done for the long-term interest. Equally staying put for fear of change is a bit pathetic.
I think there are pros and cons to leaving and staying. I tend to agree with @NickPalmer that the way we stay and grumble but don't build alliances or arguments is a daft and counter-productive way of behaving. I worry that if we stay we'll continue with this approach and it will do us and the EU no good at all.
But, fundamentally, I think that the long-term interests and visions of Britain and the rest of the EU are fundamentally different. It's not that one is right and one wrong. Just that what is right for the EU from their perspective is wrong for us, from ours. Better to be good neighbours than unhappy co-habitees.
Good luck with your house sale. I was just expressing my view. Maintaining a ludicrously high valuation of my house at the expense of my own children strikes me as a particularly daft reason for voting Remain.
I think the Scots need to make their own decision. I'm not going to let my vote be determined by what it might make the Scots do. But fair enough that you take a different view.
Through careful consideration, weighing up the pros and cons, Richard has - against the odds and surprising a great many - decided to back Cameron 100%.
We can cope and thrive in the EU. Dislocation costs of leaving and reestablishing the original position, the uncertainty costs in the meantime, combined with the opportunity costs of spending the next two-three years Brexiting instead of doing something profitable, make a Brexit a costly indulgence.
And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market.
As some of you know, I am currently selling my flat. Some of the numbers on my spreadsheet have six figures. Disruptions and indulgences in the housing market have real implications for me.
Assuming that Cameron wins the referendum it will be the final act in absorbing the entirety of the Blair coalition. The next election ought to be a Tory landslide, while any post-referendum boost to UKIP could put the Corbynite Labour party in existential danger.
Cameron is good at politics.
The Tories would still win but I doubt it would be a landslide, 50%+ of Tory voters already back Leave, only 25-30% of Labour voters do, post EU ref Tory Leave voters offer a more numerous target for UKIP
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
Corbynista? Moi?
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
Well compared to most of PB then you are a gold card member of the Corbyn fan club!
I am satisfied that the Tories have been in the lead in every opinion poll since he became leader!
To Corbynistas those who switched from New Labour to Cameron were just Tories anyway!
I hope everyone is using Crowdscores to keep track of the scores
I have tried it at the KP, but not enough bandwidth to function. FotMob seems to work fine though.
2 great goals from Vardy and Okazaki should have had a penalty too. Kasper only need to do one save. Klopp played a weak defence and six midfielders. What was he trying to achieve?
Man City away next. In the League Leicester last conceeded a goal on boxing day. Vardy is in fine fettle and we have a very happy team. Our away form is better than our home form. I cannot see why the odds are 6 for a Leicester win. Draw no bet is pretty good value too.
With Arsenal dropping points, our game at the Etihad is looking like a title decider.
But don't deny my anger. It will emerge in more honed phrases, I hope.
It seems to be having the opposite effect.
What has happened to the creator of "gaylord ponceyboots"?
When you've coined just a singular, memorable phrase on this forum then perhaps we might listen to you.
CAN YOU LIST ONE SINGLE FUCKING THING YOU'VE EVER SAID WHICH ANYONE REMEMBERED EVER
Despite your impressive list of 364,609 contributions I don't think you can. You are white noise. You are a meaningless, elderly, doddery, pro-Tory europhile, emitting a constant bleurrrrgh of colostomy-bag-clutching quasi-partisan cod-neutral inanity which, when it disappears, will go completely and blithely unnoticed. No one will ever say Oh that Richard Nabovo bloke, is he really dead, well that's a thing, coz he said that thing about that thing which was um.
That's it. Well done. You could have been playing with your grandkids. Tsk.
It's late, but I'm curious as I like words: what the hell is "cod-neutral"?
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
Corbynista? Moi?
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
Well compared to most of PB then you are a gold card member of the Corbyn fan club!
I am satisfied that the Tories have been in the lead in every opinion poll since he became leader!
To Corbynistas those who switched from New Labour to Cameron were just Tories anyway!
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
I probably didn't explain myself very well, but the way I envision it, Redwood being an automaton would be a plus not a minus. Lacking a personality hasn't hurt Phillip Hammond, and he isn't even competent.
Steven Kinnock on Sky now praising Cameron for "ticking all the boxes". I guess his old man really needs that EU pension....
It's stuff like this - and from Alan Johnson - that will make the backbenches and grassroots go ape-shit.
Who gives a flying fig what the grass roots and backbenchers feel about it? Colonel Bludgeon-Smythe's rising blood pressure ain't gonna win the argument. As for Alan Johnson - the man's an affable moderate who fought his way up from the council estate. What he says will gain more traction with Joe Public than Redwood from his tomb.
In the long run, it matters greatly. If the Conservative Party can't keep eurosceptics on board, then eventually we'll see three parties polling 25-30% of the vote.
That's just it.
I've heard it said that many senior Tories fear that UKIP and nationalism will be the winners if the UK Leaves, not the Conservative Party. Not good for their careers, a cynic might say.
But stacking the deck so heavily to favour Remain on Cameron's non-deal risks a massive backlash that could tear a hole in the Tories, almost entirely to UKIP's benefit, just as it did for the SNP in Scotland.
UKIP need to be a much better option though. Right now I can't see myself support any party backing EU as it is, but UKIP are too right wing for me.
I can't see myself tempted by UKIP whilst Farage remains as leader.
I voted UKIP in 2014, but not since
PB covers the entire range of political opinion. From Eurosceptic Conservative to UKIP.
To Corbynistas who occasionally have flings with Farage like Sunil!!
Corbynista? Moi?
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
Well compared to most of PB then you are a gold card member of the Corbyn fan club!
I am satisfied that the Tories have been in the lead in every opinion poll since he became leader!
To Corbynistas those who switched from New Labour to Cameron were just Tories anyway!
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
But don't deny my anger. It will emerge in more honed phrases, I hope.
It seems to be having the opposite effect.
What has happened to the creator of "gaylord ponceyboots"?
When you've coined just a singular, memorable phrase on this forum then perhaps we might listen to you.
CAN YOU LIST ONE SINGLE FUCKING THING YOU'VE EVER SAID WHICH ANYONE REMEMBERED EVER
Despite your impressive list of 364,609 contributions I don't think you can. You are white noise. You are a meaningless, elderly, doddery, pro-Tory europhile, emitting a constant bleurrrrgh of colostomy-bag-clutching quasi-partisan cod-neutral inanity which, when it disappears, will go completely and blithely unnoticed. No one will ever say Oh that Richard Nabovo bloke, is he really dead, well that's a thing, coz he said that thing about that thing which was um.
That's it. Well done. You could have been playing with your grandkids. Tsk.
It's late, but I'm curious as I like words: what the hell is "cod-neutral"?
But don't deny my anger. It will emerge in more honed phrases, I hope.
It seems to be having the opposite effect.
What has happened to the creator of "gaylord ponceyboots"?
When you've coined just a singular, memorable phrase on this forum then perhaps we might listen to you.
CAN YOU LIST ONE SINGLE FUCKING THING YOU'VE EVER SAID WHICH ANYONE REMEMBERED EVER
Despite your impressive list of 364,609 contributions I don't think you can. You are white noise. You are a meaningless, elderly, doddery, pro-Tory europhile, emitting a constant bleurrrrgh of colostomy-bag-clutching quasi-partisan cod-neutral inanity which, when it disappears, will go completely and blithely unnoticed. No one will ever say Oh that Richard Nabovo bloke, is he really dead, well that's a thing, coz he said that thing about that thing which was um.
That's it. Well done. You could have been playing with your grandkids. Tsk.
It's late, but I'm curious as I like words: what the hell is "cod-neutral"?
'Right now, I view UKIP, for all their faults, as the best available option. If you want to leave the EU, they're the only option, as so many ostensible Conservative critics of the EU have proved to be broken reeds.'
I'm afraid it's 1992-97 all over again, with the Conservative leadership abandoning its supporters and doing utterly stupid things.
I feel I may have voted Conservative for the last time.
I will never, for the foreseeable future, vote Tory again.... unless, of course, the alternative is a Labour government led by the likes of Corbyn,
I have no choice in that situation but to vote anti-Corbyn. Meh.
Interesting fact: UKIP were 6 votes short of saving their deposit in Holborn & St Pancras at the general election. They needed 2,746 and got 2,740.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
Yes, this ridiculous flailing around by the sceptics is demeaning the cause. I expected clarity and coherence, but they seem consumed with panic. Why, when the case should be almost irrefutable? Fear does that.
It's really odd. From the reaction, you'd think they were in a complete panic because Cameron's deal was too good.
The correct reaction, if they wanted to maximise the Leave vote, would be a sorrowful "the PM has done as good a job as anyone could do, but the EU is clearly not prepared to listen to the UK."
What panic? What flailing? The firmly outs have reacted how we were always going to react to a crap deal. I think the increase in volume you've picked up has been from those giving the renegotiations a genuine chance (I know, but still), and have been totally let down.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
I must say thats what I thought. There hardly seems much point to a referendum campaign, or referendum parties - just stickup a weekly series of Sun headlines. They will be predictable enough without needing to refer to too many facts. Maybe we can get a line of fur hatted judges to give them marks out of 10.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
Yes, this ridiculous flailing around by the sceptics is demeaning the cause. I expected clarity and coherence, but they seem consumed with panic. Why, when the case should be almost irrefutable? Fear does that.
It's really odd. From the reaction, you'd think they were in a complete panic because Cameron's deal was too good.
The correct reaction, if they wanted to maximise the Leave vote, would be a sorrowful "the PM has done as good a job as anyone could do, but the EU is clearly not prepared to listen to the UK."
What panic? What flailing? The firmly outs have reacted how we were always going to react to a crap deal. I think the increase in volume you've picked up has been from those giving the renegotiations a genuine chance (I know, but still), and have been totally let down.
I think the Eurofanatics are disappointed at how poor the deal is. If it was even a slightly good deal they would have been boasting all day long about how great it is. Instead there has been silence.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
I must say thats what I thought. There hardly seems much point to a referendum campaign, or referendum parties - just stickup a weekly series of Sun headlines. They will be predictable enough without needing to refer to too many facts. Maybe we can get a line of fur hatted judges to give them marks out of 10.
I'm never going to defend the press, but do you seriously think this is a good deal?
I have never seen a single point raised by Remain that cannot be defeated as basic scaremongering, not one. Can you help me please because I literally cannot see one single valid reason why we should remain.
What panic? What flailing? The firmly outs have reacted how we were always going to react to a crap deal. I think the increase in volume you've picked up has been from those giving the renegotiations a genuine chance (I know, but still), and have been totally let down.
Fair point, but how it will look to the uncommitted is that Cameron is being attacked by a band of frothing nutters for not getting enough on one hand, and that on the other hand the EU countries had to be pushed hard to get even that. That's not bad positioning for the Remain side.
''There hardly seems much point to a referendum campaign, or referendum parties - just stickup a weekly series of Sun headlines. They will be predictable enough without needing to refer to too many facts. ''
Listen to yourself, you sound just like an Ed Miliband supporter circa November 2014.
But don't deny my anger. It will emerge in more honed phrases, I hope.
It seems to be having the opposite effect.
What has happened to the creator of "gaylord ponceyboots"?
When you've coined just a singular, memorable phrase on this forum then perhaps we might listen to you.
CAN YOU LIST ONE SINGLE FUCKING THING YOU'VE EVER SAID WHICH ANYONE REMEMBERED EVER
Despite your impressive list of 364,609 contributions I don't think you can. You are white noise. You are a meaningless, elderly, doddery, pro-Tory europhile, emitting a constant bleurrrrgh of colostomy-bag-clutching quasi-partisan cod-neutral inanity which, when it disappears, will go completely and blithely unnoticed. No one will ever say Oh that Richard Nabovo bloke, is he really dead, well that's a thing, coz he said that thing about that thing which was um.
That's it. Well done. You could have been playing with your grandkids. Tsk.
It's late, but I'm curious as I like words: what the hell is "cod-neutral"?
Unless he meant Richard is ambivalent on our delicious national fish, which would also be deserving of a severe reprimand.
Cameron couldn't even negotiate new fish quotas...
Cameron's idea of negotiating fish quotas would be to slip Donald Tusk a tin of Prince's tuna and then try and arrange a photo-op where Cameron rugby tackles him and snatches back the tin 'FOR THE BRIDDISH INTEREST'. Only to find Merkel has already had it in her sandwiches because they don't give enough of a shit about this ridiculous man to even bother.
Either way, it's probably best if you now stop dodging the pb coffin, accept that the years "are spanielled at your heels" and let others take the clearly overburdening strain. I promise we will remember you for that one thing you said about, you know, uh, uh, god. uh THINGY, pfft, god, whats for lunch.
No, I need to hang around in case you need a decent ending written for one of your books,or perhaps I should say, for the book you keep rehashing.
Just because something is difficult and costly in the short-term does not mean that it should not be done for the long-term interest. Equally staying put for fear of change is a bit pathetic.
Change incurs cost. Without a significant improvement, change is not an improvement on the status quo. In such cases money estimates of the long-term benefits should be made available so that people can weigh one against the other. Emotive terms like "pathetic" are irrelevant.
I think there are pros and cons to leaving and staying. I tend to agree with @NickPalmer that the way we stay and grumble but don't build alliances or arguments is a daft and counter-productive way of behaving. I worry that if we stay we'll continue with this approach and it will do us and the EU no good at all. But, fundamentally, I think that the long-term interests and visions of Britain and the rest of the EU are fundamentally different. It's not that one is right and one wrong. Just that what is right for the EU from their perspective is wrong for us, from ours. Better to be good neighbours than unhappy co-habitees.
It's not a bad argument and if the debate had been conducted in such terms the atmosphere would be different. But the argument is based on abstracts ("long-term interests", "visions", "good neighbours") whereas I prefer quantifiable data.
What panic? What flailing? The firmly outs have reacted how we were always going to react to a crap deal. I think the increase in volume you've picked up has been from those giving the renegotiations a genuine chance (I know, but still), and have been totally let down.
Fair point, but how it will look to the uncommitted is that Cameron is being attacked by a band of frothing nutters for not getting enough on one hand, and that on the other hand the EU countries had to be pushed hard to get even that. That's not bad positioning for the Remain side.
Maria Caulfield is hardly a frothing nutter, and I'd imagine the vast majority of "Leavers" are somewhere between the good people of Clacton interviewed in the vox pops and her good self !
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
I must say thats what I thought. There hardly seems much point to a referendum campaign, or referendum parties - just stickup a weekly series of Sun headlines. They will be predictable enough without needing to refer to too many facts. Maybe we can get a line of fur hatted judges to give them marks out of 10.
I'm never going to defend the press, but do you seriously think this is a good deal?
I have never seen a single point raised by Remain that cannot be defeated as basic scaremongering, not one. Can you help me please because I literally cannot see why single valid reason why we should remain.
If you cannot understand why anyone wants to remain in the EU, then your campaign is doomed. Depending on the poll half to 2/3 of Brits want to stay in.
Farage and his mates are not going to win by circulating their fixed ideas around the saloon bar.
''There hardly seems much point to a referendum campaign, or referendum parties - just stickup a weekly series of Sun headlines. They will be predictable enough without needing to refer to too many facts. ''
Listen to yourself, you sound just like an Ed Miliband supporter circa November 2014.
Heaven forbid you will listen to yourself. You will get a vote - all you have to do is cast it. Where was the last PM to give you a referendum on the EU? Whats bothering you? If 51% vote out we can be out. Then you can all start arguing what to do next and looking round for the next excuse.
If you cannot understand why anyone wants to remain in the EU, then your campaign is doomed. Depending on the poll half to 2/3 of Brits want to stay in.
Farage and his mates are not going to win by circulating their fixed ideas around the saloon bar.
So you couldn't give a succinct pithy answer to the question then. Your last 5 odd posts are taking swipes at the Leave campaign, but you can't articulate in words of one syllable why you think we should remain. Doesn't auger particularly well does it?
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
We can cope and thrive in the EU. Dislocation costs of leaving and reestablishing the original position, the uncertainty costs in the meantime, combined with the opportunity costs of spending the next two-three years Brexiting instead of doing something profitable, make a Brexit a costly indulgence.
And I think of my house as a home rather than an investment and suspect that he overstates the effect on the London property market.
As some of you know, I am currently selling my flat. Some of the numbers on my spreadsheet have six figures. Disruptions and indulgences in the housing market have real implications for me.
He has amazing stamina for a 76 year old. I wonder if he became POTUS if he'd be a single term pres though ? Being President has aged Obama ALOT, and he's a much younger man.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
Mr Fox, do you think it is a good deal then?
I am happy staying in the EU on existing terms.
For goodness' sake why??
Just so you know, his real name is foxdansleschaussettes
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
If only both sides could lose. They are neither of them appealing, convincing or honest. Though there are - as always - individual exceptions.
The entire EU debate since I have been a teenager has been characterised by a fundamental dishonesty mixed up with absurdly over-stated WW2 references, on both sides (and I'm including the EU itself in this).
We went into the EU because we lacked the self-confidence to carve out a role of our own, even as a relatively small nation. Now we're either too afraid to leave or too weak to stand up for ourselves within it or too pathetic to put forward an alternative and well thought out case. So we get whiny grumbling, macho displays which turn out to be nothing at all, a refusal to join in and more complaints that we have no friends.
It would have been nice to have had a proper grown up debate about Britain and the EU's role in the world given what is happening in the Middle East, in Ukraine, Russia etc not this Dad's Army bollocks, whinging about a non-contributory welfare system which is wholly in our control and has nothing to do with the EU at all and civil servants coming up with a load of waffly bullshit which means the square root of f** all.
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
Mr Fox, do you think it is a good deal then?
I am happy staying in the EU on existing terms.
For goodness' sake why??
Because it's easier to complete forms at work and he fancies retiring in the sun, he said this the other week. Quite possibly the most shallow poster ever on PB
I'm not convinced Leave needs a leader. I think they need a someone to run it, but I'm not sure that person should be the spokesman. Someone mentioned John Redwood earlier - he could definitely play a strong role.
Please, please, please put John Redwood in charge of LEAVE. Put him in front of the cameras every day. I will light a candle for you if you do...
I wasn't suggesting putting Redwood in charge. I do however think he is has the most credibility on the economy of anyone on the Leave side and indeed more than members of the current Government - with the possible exception of Lawson. I would see him as a grey-suited prophet of doom basically going around predicting economic carnage from staying in. Bad cop to someone else's good cop. Sadly I don't think he'd be prepared to do that - from reading him he seems far more of a 'positive case for life outside the EU' person.
His (Redwood's) social awkwardness and 90's reputation would not perhaps result in the outcome you desire.
The EU = The Borg
The BOOers = the nuttiest fruitcake since Nutty McNutt baked a walnut cake for squirrel Nutkin with added hazelnut sprinkles.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
EU do you think you are kidding Dr Fox !
If the hyperbolic stuff on here today is the tone of the Leave campaign, then they are doomed.
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
Mr Fox, do you think it is a good deal then?
I am happy staying in the EU on existing terms.
For goodness' sake why??
Just so you know, his real name is foxdansleschaussettes
What panic? What flailing? The firmly outs have reacted how we were always going to react to a crap deal. I think the increase in volume you've picked up has been from those giving the renegotiations a genuine chance (I know, but still), and have been totally let down.
Fair point, but how it will look to the uncommitted is that Cameron is being attacked by a band of frothing nutters for not getting enough on one hand, and that on the other hand the EU countries had to be pushed hard to get even that. That's not bad positioning for the Remain side.
If they all read PB, perhaps they can de-lurk and tell us. I suspect they don't.
I also can't for the life of me see how EU countries telling Cameron to f-off is even remotely good for Remain - it reinforces the issue that we're getting nowhere in the current framework and we're better off out. In fact any credit Cameron manages to scrape for achieving whatever it is he feels he's achieved is directly proportional to the EU looking intransigent and overbearing.
On that note, good night, it's way past lights out.
''We went into the EU because we lacked the self-confidence to carve out a role of our own, even as a relatively small nation. Now we're either too afraid to leave or too weak to stand up for ourselves within it or too pathetic to put forward an alternative and well thought out case. So we get whiny grumbling, macho displays which turn out to be nothing at all, a refusal to join in and more complaints that we have no friends.''
The heart of the matter. The very core of things. Britain has no common role or identity in the world. We don;t know where we fit in, or what we want to be.
Comments
(I only voted for him as a £3-er - let's just say I am "satisfied" with his performance as Labour leader!)
2:34 Farage rather admires Juncker's politiking methinks !
Certainly an improvement on Herman Van Rumpuy.
That's by the people who for the last seven years have been saying we must have a referendum NOW, and laying into him for not instantly providing it!
Politics is hilarious.
Chucking a bucket of sh*t over Cameron.
https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/694648819531776001
He'd still support Remain if all they offered him was an extra napkin at EU banquets
What has happened to the creator of "gaylord ponceyboots"?
Good on her - constituency before party. Should be the way for every MP.
(She's very good, BTW).
The correct reaction, if they wanted to maximise the Leave vote, would be a sorrowful "the PM has done as good a job as anyone could do, but the EU is clearly not prepared to listen to the UK."
Cameron is good at politics.
Who'd have thunk it.
I think there are pros and cons to leaving and staying. I tend to agree with @NickPalmer that the way we stay and grumble but don't build alliances or arguments is a daft and counter-productive way of behaving. I worry that if we stay we'll continue with this approach and it will do us and the EU no good at all.
But, fundamentally, I think that the long-term interests and visions of Britain and the rest of the EU are fundamentally different. It's not that one is right and one wrong. Just that what is right for the EU from their perspective is wrong for us, from ours. Better to be good neighbours than unhappy co-habitees.
Good luck with your house sale. I was just expressing my view. Maintaining a ludicrously high valuation of my house at the expense of my own children strikes me as a particularly daft reason for voting Remain.
I think the Scots need to make their own decision. I'm not going to let my vote be determined by what it might make the Scots do. But fair enough that you take a different view.
Anything as long as my flat doesn't get affected - the worst sort of NIMBYism.
And given the EUs penchant for dramatically underperforming against the lowest of expectations, entirely likely.
Admittedly, most of them I didn't say, but one can't have everything.
2 great goals from Vardy and Okazaki should have had a penalty too. Kasper only need to do one save. Klopp played a weak defence and six midfielders. What was he trying to achieve?
Man City away next. In the League Leicester last conceeded a goal on boxing day. Vardy is in fine fettle and we have a very happy team. Our away form is better than our home form. I cannot see why the odds are 6 for a Leicester win. Draw no bet is pretty good value too.
With Arsenal dropping points, our game at the Etihad is looking like a title decider.
She gets a special dispensation as permitted and budgeted in the legislation, so no actual loss. Winning her case won't benefit her financially.
Frothing at the mouth is not a good look for winning undecided voters!
Unless he meant Richard is ambivalent on our delicious national fish, which would also be deserving of a severe reprimand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holborn_and_St_Pancras_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
Cameron as Captain Mainwaring? That comfortable, if slightly pompous, English patriot? Not sure that it works.
There hardly seems much point to a referendum campaign, or referendum parties - just stickup a weekly series of Sun headlines. They will be predictable enough without needing to refer to too many facts.
Maybe we can get a line of fur hatted judges to give them marks out of 10.
If the EU are the Borg, who's their 7 of 9?
Asking for a friend......
I have never seen a single point raised by Remain that cannot be defeated as basic scaremongering, not one. Can you help me please because I literally cannot see one single valid reason why we should remain.
Listen to yourself, you sound just like an Ed Miliband supporter circa November 2014.
Farage and his mates are not going to win by circulating their fixed ideas around the saloon bar.
If 51% vote out we can be out. Then you can all start arguing what to do next and looking round for the next excuse.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc2/watch/live-sanders-holds-new-hampshire-rally-614551107781?cid=sm_tw_msnbc
He has amazing stamina for a 76 year old. I wonder if he became POTUS if he'd be a single term pres though ? Being President has aged Obama ALOT, and he's a much younger man.
Just sayin'
The entire EU debate since I have been a teenager has been characterised by a fundamental dishonesty mixed up with absurdly over-stated WW2 references, on both sides (and I'm including the EU itself in this).
We went into the EU because we lacked the self-confidence to carve out a role of our own, even as a relatively small nation. Now we're either too afraid to leave or too weak to stand up for ourselves within it or too pathetic to put forward an alternative and well thought out case. So we get whiny grumbling, macho displays which turn out to be nothing at all, a refusal to join in and more complaints that we have no friends.
It would have been nice to have had a proper grown up debate about Britain and the EU's role in the world given what is happening in the Middle East, in Ukraine, Russia etc not this Dad's Army bollocks, whinging about a non-contributory welfare system which is wholly in our control and has nothing to do with the EU at all and civil servants coming up with a load of waffly bullshit which means the square root of f** all.
True enough. And I can contribute to the OUT campaign and crowd fund 'BREXIT, The movie'
I also can't for the life of me see how EU countries telling Cameron to f-off is even remotely good for Remain - it reinforces the issue that we're getting nowhere in the current framework and we're better off out. In fact any credit Cameron manages to scrape for achieving whatever it is he feels he's achieved is directly proportional to the EU looking intransigent and overbearing.
On that note, good night, it's way past lights out.
The heart of the matter. The very core of things. Britain has no common role or identity in the world. We don;t know where we fit in, or what we want to be.