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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As well as a unique hair-style Trump has another thing in c

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited February 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As well as a unique hair-style Trump has another thing in common with Boris – being overstated in the polls

One of the things that I’ve written about before here is that Boris gets over-stated by the polls when tested against real election results. It happened to quite a degree at the last London mayoral election and we saw a similar pattern overnight in the results from Iowa.

Read the full story here


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    Prolly cos Trump don't have a decent turnout operation. Matters more in caucuses than primaries.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/jeb-quits-race-with-mission-accomplished-banner

    Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush announced that he was dropping out of the race for the Republican Presidential nomination, while standing in front of a “Mission Accomplished” banner draped over the façade of his campaign headquarters, in Miami.

    Speaking to his remaining staff members who were seated in a dozen folding chairs, Bush thanked them for the hard work that led to the triumphant completion of their mission.

    “Our work is done,” Bush said. “Thanks to you, we have prevailed.”
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Not sure what parallel you are drawing between Trump and Boris really.
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    I really can't see Trump winning NH by the 20+ points the polls have him at.
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    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.
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    Yeah, I think Norfolk is right - my interpretation is that the pollsters were measuring support amongst possible caucus goers, but that actually getting to and participating in a caucus is a different matter. I'd expect the polls to be a better guide in future contests.

    Having said that, NH has its own wrinkle which is that independents can vote in either the Dem or GOP primaries, but not both. Figuring out which they think is more important can't be easy for pollsters.
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    The next few polls will be very important: to what extent is Donald Trump's polling success a virtuous circle based on his image as a winner and will potential supporters be put off by his apparent vincibility?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    edited February 2016
    FPT:
    SeanT
    This is why it is important for the Tories to elect a sceptic leader after Cameron.

    Cameron will take the blame for REMAIN winning, and go down as a new kind of Blair, with Tories queuing up to loathe him as the EU laughs at us. But he's quitting anyway, to spend more time with his DVD collection, so he won't care.

    But the next Tory leader will need to be untainted by REMAIN, or they could suffer badly.


    I think that's probably true. Cameron has a lot to recommend him, and much of what he has aimed for should probably be followed by whoever comes after him, but the europe issue will clearly, despite the hopes of some Tories, remain toxic for the party if they do remain. Being stuck in but with someone who cannot be accused of kowtowing to the EU, fairly or otherwise, will surely be needed to keep party members happy.
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    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/jeb-quits-race-with-mission-accomplished-banner

    Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush announced that he was dropping out of the race for the Republican Presidential nomination, while standing in front of a “Mission Accomplished” banner draped over the façade of his campaign headquarters, in Miami.

    Speaking to his remaining staff members who were seated in a dozen folding chairs, Bush thanked them for the hard work that led to the triumphant completion of their mission.

    “Our work is done,” Bush said. “Thanks to you, we have prevailed.”

    Jeb Bush was overstated in the Iowa polls too.
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    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    It does look like getting off fence time doesn't it?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    @SeanT

    I'm still struggling with your criticism on the last thread. I advocated EFTA/EEA membership, and then you listed a bunch of countries, in which EFTA/EEA ones were massively over-represented (in that all three were on the list).

    How are you not agreeing with me?
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    rcs1000 said:

    @SeanT

    I'm still struggling with your criticism on the last thread. I advocated EFTA/EEA membership, and then you listed a bunch of countries, in which EFTA/EEA ones were massively over-represented (in that all three were on the list).

    How are you not agreeing with me?

    You do realise this is SeanT, right? You expect consistency???
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    I really can't see Trump winning NH by the 20+ points the polls have him at.

    The real question is what happens to Cruz in NH. Third or fourth, and 15 points behind Rubio would be my guess. (25 vs 10?)
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    I can't honestly say that the package thus far announced is particularly enticing (and will be difficult to sell) but I wonder whether Cameron is seeking to strengthen it at the Heads of Government meeting in a couple of weeks. I accept this may be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    SeanT
    This is why it is important for the Tories to elect a sceptic leader after Cameron.

    Cameron will take the blame for REMAIN winning, and go down as a new kind of Blair, with Tories queuing up to loathe him as the EU laughs at us. But he's quitting anyway, to spend more time with his DVD collection, so he won't care.

    But the next Tory leader will need to be untainted by REMAIN, or they could suffer badly.


    I think that's probably true. Cameron has a lot to recommend him, and much of what he has aimed for should probably be followed by whoever comes after him, but the europe issue will clearly, despite the hopes of some Tories, remain toxic for the party if they do remain. Being stuck in but with someone who cannot be accused of kowtowing to the EU, fairly or otherwise, will surely be needed to keep party members happy.

    I think he meant *septic*
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
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    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Is May a serious runner for PM?
    Maybe the deal she wants will not materialise, but her comments are way way short of all the newspaper headlines which claimed to know what was going on in her head.
    Does this not make the penny drop for the phobing hysterics?
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
    A shame if she is a REMAINer

    I agree it's a blow

    Michael Portillo this is your time to shine!

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    JohnO said:

    I can't honestly say that the package thus far announced is particularly enticing (and will be difficult to sell) but I wonder whether Cameron is seeking to strengthen it at the Heads of Government meeting in a couple of weeks. I accept this may be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened...

    Tactically it makes sense - present a deal you say is good, then say you managed to make it even better - but we'll see
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    JohnO said:

    I can't honestly say that the package thus far announced is particularly enticing (and will be difficult to sell) but I wonder whether Cameron is seeking to strengthen it at the Heads of Government meeting in a couple of weeks. I accept this may be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened...

    Expect something for sham marriages.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @SeanT

    I'm still struggling with your criticism on the last thread. I advocated EFTA/EEA membership, and then you listed a bunch of countries, in which EFTA/EEA ones were massively over-represented (in that all three were on the list).

    How are you not agreeing with me?

    Er, I said

    "in substance I agree with you"

    Go and have a look.
    But only in a later comment, which I'd missed because I was getting my kids supper :lol:
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    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7

    But who speaks for Labour on this issue? It's not like you can always count on even the leader and shadow cabinet to agree on a position.

    Speaking of, I've not really be online much today, but has the Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott/Livingstone collective weighed in? On Europe Labour have a chance to sit back and let the Tories tear into each other, and I wonder if they are taking that advice.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    @SeanT or Cyclefree: given we live in roughly the same neck of the woods, can either of you recommend a good takeaway Indian restaraunt.

    My wife is away for a week, and therefore I plan to eat unhealthily... Which reminds, me I've opened a staggeringly good bottle of wine downstairs that I need to pour a glass from...
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    edited February 2016
    By the way, I was talking to a French politico person today, and he told me that Marion Marechal-Le Pen is trying to move the FN to a "defend European Christian culture from Islam" position and away from the anti-EU stance of old.

    Does anyone know if this is true?
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    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
    Very unexpected. She's bottled it.

    And blown her leadership chances too.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    SeanT said:

    Hah. On the 6, Alan Johnson just said "we should listen to the prime minister, because he's the prime minister, and if he says it's a good deal..."

    LOL

    Have we had corbyn agreeing with the PM yet ;-)
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
    Very unexpected. She's bottled it.

    And blown her leadership chances too.
    What about Hammond? (Although I hear he doesn't want to be PM)
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    rcs1000 said:

    By the way, I was talking to a French politico person today, and he told me that Marion Marechal-Le Pen is trying to move the FN to a "defend European Christian culture from Islam" position and away from the anti-EU stance of old.

    Does anyone know if this is true?

    Has she been reading Houellebecq's new novel?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @SeanT or Cyclefree: given we live in roughly the same neck of the woods, can either of you recommend a good takeaway Indian restaraunt.

    My wife is away for a week, and therefore I plan to eat unhealthily... Which reminds, me I've opened a staggeringly good bottle of wine downstairs that I need to pour a glass from...

    Madras Valley, in Kentish Town, for good regular Indian takeaway.

    Avoid the posher ones like Namaaste on Parkway. Ugh. Why fool around with a Rogan Josh?
    LOL: the last Indian I had in a curry house was Namaste on Parkway, and I agree 100% with you
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    As well as a unique hair-style Trump has another thing in common with Boris....

    Ouch.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
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    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7

    But who speaks for Labour on this issue? It's not like you can always count on even the leader and shadow cabinet to agree on a position.

    Speaking of, I've not really be online much today, but has the Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott/Livingstone collective weighed in? On Europe Labour have a chance to sit back and let the Tories tear into each other, and I wonder if they are taking that advice.
    Looks like they are keeping very quiet. Tweets are all about the new economics.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006

    As well as a unique hair-style Trump has another thing in common with Boris....

    Ouch.

    Adultery?
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    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Well said.
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    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Right, so UKIP aren't going to respect the referendum result. Nice of you to let us know that in advance.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Nor predicting it will happen, but I am sure some people thought that of the SNP pre Indy ref
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    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
    We will have a referendum. If the populous want to leave they can vote. Where is the trick with that. Cameron has given the nation a vote. This is more than Heath Thatcher or Major ever did (although Major dared his party to sack him).
    If it is for remain, then why after all these years of sensibly building a consensus with the voters should the membership tear all that up? Why swim against the stream and divide your party in the process. Would they think the Corbynites have a point?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    FPT
    viewcode said:

    Some of you may remember a few weeks ago I listed Three Eurosceptic Fallacies and Three Eurosceptic Memes. The latter was subtitled "Eternal, Infinite, Immortal" after a line in Mass Effect 3. Since everybody here is coming out with #Meme2 and (some) with #Meme3 I'd thought I'd repost the Three Eurosceptic Memes again.

    * #Meme1: The EU is an Eternal Villain. Anything good it does must be characterised as "would have happened anyway". Anything bad that happens must be blamed on it, no matter how implausibly
    * #Meme2: The EU is a Infinite Villain. The statement "I would have voted Remain if Cameron had negotiated X but he didn't so I'll vote Leave, such a pity" where X is a member of the set of all possible things
    * #Meme3: The EU is the Immortal Villain. Anything bad that might happen in a future EU must be presented as fact, no matter how improbable it is.

    And they are as much garbage now as they were when you first posted them.

    And yet they seem to be incredibly popular, given the numbers of people who posted #Meme2.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Right, so UKIP aren't going to respect the referendum result. Nice of you to let us know that in advance.
    It would be difficult to respect a rushed referendum in June against Electoral Commission guidance.

    I don't speak for UKIP.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Its indecided's pompous top trumps!
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    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Right, so UKIP aren't going to respect the referendum result. Nice of you to let us know that in advance.
    It would be difficult to respect a rushed referendum in June against Electoral Commission guidance.

    I don't speak for UKIP.
    The issue will be if it is close, say 51/49 or something like that. Plus a crap turn-out.
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    FPT:
    Pulpstar said:

    Have to admit when Dave said he was going to renegotiate with Europe, I thought he meant a couple of years worth of talks getting meaningful reform on the CAP, CFP, supremacy of EU courts, human rights legislation... not neccesarily getting everything we asked for but making alliances say with the Germans against the French on farming and perhaps a bit of a quid pro quo for the (senible in my view) suggestion of some sort of EU border force.

    Oh, come on.

    Supremacy of EU courts was never on the table: it's an essential aspect of the EU and to opt out of the ECJ is tantamount to opting out of the EU. If you don't want ECJ decisions to be binding, just be honest and say you're for Leave on grounds of sovereignty.

    Human Rights legislation is a red herring. It's a consequence of membership of the Council of Europe, not the EU - and is directly applicable in UK because of a UK law. Yes, the EU is also subject to Human Rights law so there is an element of a back door but nearly every hoo-ha relating to Europe and human rights is to do with the ECHR.

    Cameron never mentioned either the CAP or CFP during his Bloomberg speech so they too seem to be on your made-up wishlist.

    If you want to have a go at him for objectives not delivered, go back to the original 2013 speech and compare the deal against that - it's not as if you won't have a case. But to set up a straw man undermines your own argument.
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    SeanT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Remain needs to win by 60/40 at a bare minimum to settle it for a generation etc etc.

    I doubt they will do that.

    I bet we will be revisiting the idea of a referendum within 10 years. Maybe much less if the EU falls apart.
    I'm expecting 60/40 Remain minimum simply because whenever Leave are asked what comes next after a Leave vote you get a lot of spluttering, "search me guv" and angry expostulations about the wickedness of the EU.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Right, so UKIP aren't going to respect the referendum result. Nice of you to let us know that in advance.
    It would be difficult to respect a rushed referendum in June against Electoral Commission guidance.

    I don't speak for UKIP.
    The issue will be if it is close, say 51/49 or something like that. Plus a crap turn-out.
    That'd be an amazing result for UKIP.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    SeanT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Remain needs to win by 60/40 at a bare minimum to settle it for a generation etc etc.

    I doubt they will do that.

    I bet we will be revisiting the idea of a referendum within 10 years. Maybe much less if the EU falls apart.
    Even if it's 60:40, there will likely be further moves towards integration in the Eurozone that will stress our relationship.

    I'd reckon Remain will win fairly clearly this year, and then lose fairly clearly in 2022. (If the EU falls apart, we probably won't need another referendum.)
  • Options
    On topic, I would be very wary of reading a general rule into the Iowa outcome. Iowa is notoriously difficult to poll due to the nature of the caucus system. There may be good systemic reasons why Trump is being overstated but I'll reserve judgement on the hypothesis until after New Hampshire, which is a more traditional election.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Evening. Just trying to catch up on the day's news, so it seems that the PM didn't even have a hat, let alone a rabbit to pull out of it. If the renegotiation is the pig-in-a-poke (to use a phrase!) presented today, then Leave becomes more likely.

    From a betting perspective, we discussed the referendum result, next PM and Tory leader markets, and date of Dave and George leaving office. But what about the next to leave to leave the Cabinet market? Is it probable that someone will wish to call out the PM on his negotiation and move to the back benches to do so. If someone has the balls to do that, it would make them favourite to lead the Leave campaign and shortening odds to be next PM. The question is, who would do it..?
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    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Tho
    If res well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Right, so UKIP aren't going to respect the referendum result. Nice of you to let us know that in advance.
    It was never in doubt

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7

    But vice.
    Looks like they are keeping very quiet. Tweets are all about the new economics.
    And people say they are incapable of being sensible. Clearly they can, they should try it more often.

    On leaving, quite honestly I'm not sure what the PM could have offered to address my concerns, which are more rooted in dislike for the institution and bureaucracy and how they seem like they will only exacerbate the parts I dislike over time, so I will not pretend that if only Cameron had gotten X I would have been on board, but it is an underwhelming start, unless he has a rabbit to pull out of his hat.
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    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
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    SeanT said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Some of us - ie. me not you - predicted BEFORE indyref that the SNP would get a huge sympathy vote after losing the vote narrowly.

    I was right on all counts.

    Eurosceptics will get a surge of similar sympathy voting after REMAIN wins, especially when we all realise the EU is going to treat us with contempt thereafter (which they will).

    This is why it is vital for Tories to be led by at least a halfway sceptic leader, when Cameron quits.

    Sean, you make so many predictions (many of them mutually contradictory) that some of them are likely to be right.

    If Remain wins, there will be nearly four years before the next election, plenty of time for more important subjects than the EU to take precedence in the public's voting intention. Nigel Farage is as popular as Jeremy Corbyn in the most recent Mori poll.

    I'm willing to consider a bet on the subject if you're tempted.
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    rcs1000 said:

    By the way, I was talking to a French politico person today, and he told me that Marion Marechal-Le Pen is trying to move the FN to a "defend European Christian culture from Islam" position and away from the anti-EU stance of old.

    Does anyone know if this is true?

    Has she been reading Houellebecq's new novel?
    She is following the path of least resistance and trying to link the EU with some dark muslim conspiracy.
    Meantime back closer to home, where its Corbyn who is mulling over who to appoint as ambassador to ISIS. Where does the real danger lie?
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7

    Stuff it, never mind June. Let's go for March 10.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Did Hilary really win six coin tosses against Sanders? 63/1 on that happening, assuming unbiased coins.

    Reminds me of this video, believed to be the only time 10 heads in a row has been filmed in a single shot.
    youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7

    Is Johnson the shadow cabinet's shadow leader?
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    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
    Very unexpected. She's bottled it.

    And blown her leadership chances too.
    What about Hammond? (Although I hear he doesn't want to be PM)
    Surely he's compromised by having been FSec through the negotiations? Backing Leave would imply that he was completely at odds with the PM over his own job?
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    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Why would the Europhile lunatics like you still be talking about the EU. I mean I know you are seriously demented but that would be kind of pointless.
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    Sandpit said:

    Did Hilary really win six coin tosses against Sanders? 63/1 on that happening, assuming unbiased coins.

    Reminds me of this video, believed to be the only time 10 heads in a row has been filmed in a single shot.
    youtu.be/XzYLHOX50Bc

    'I have never tossed that man, Sanders...'
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    I don't think that'll be the case. The 1970's referendum was preceded by an approx six-year campaign to mold public opinion (i.e. before the 1970 Heath Premiership), a consensus amongst the party big beasts on all sides that membership was a good thing, and a solid bloc of pro-EU reporting in the print media. Only the trade unions, some Labour MPs, and a small section of the public were vehemently agin.

    Now fast forward to the 2010's

    The Cold War government information apparatus is long gone, the big beast consensus is absent, the print media is vehemently anti-EU, Euroscepticism is common amongst the public. The weapons available to the REMAIN side are absent and the numbers small. The weapons available to the LEAVE side are large - a vicious press, an agreeable commentariat, an engaged public - and it looks like a slam dunk for LEAVE.

    As I said to SeanT some while ago: when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    edited February 2016
    SeanT said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
    I speak as someone undecided on this issue. .
    Be careful - someone will bring up rule 237 of PB next - anyone who says they are undecided is a liar, as being undecided (if leaning in certain directions) is impossible. Apparently.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Ooh, an email from Dave addressed to me personally (shame he got the Christian name wrong, but there we go) has arrived seconds ago. All will be well, my friends.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    JohnO said:

    I can't honestly say that the package thus far announced is particularly enticing (and will be difficult to sell) but I wonder whether Cameron is seeking to strengthen it at the Heads of Government meeting in a couple of weeks. I accept this may be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened...

    For that to have any chance of happening, he needs a stonkingly bad poll (i.e. big Leave majority) between now and then. If not, then the odds are that the other Heads of Government will weaken the gruel further.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    MTimT said:

    JohnO said:

    I can't honestly say that the package thus far announced is particularly enticing (and will be difficult to sell) but I wonder whether Cameron is seeking to strengthen it at the Heads of Government meeting in a couple of weeks. I accept this may be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened...

    For that to have any chance of happening, he needs a stonkingly bad poll (i.e. big Leave majority) between now and then. If not, then the odds are that the other Heads of Government will weaken the gruel further.
    I may be better informed this evening....I suspect he will get more
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    SeanT said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Some of us - ie. me not you - predicted BEFORE indyref that the SNP would get a huge sympathy vote after losing the vote narrowly.

    I was right on all counts.

    Eurosceptics will get a surge of similar sympathy voting after REMAIN wins, especially when we all realise the EU is going to treat us with contempt thereafter (which they will).

    This is why it is vital for Tories to be led by at least a halfway sceptic leader, when Cameron quits.

    The difference is that the SNP called the referendum from being in government after other parties tried to frustrate them at the election, while UKIP were trying to frustrate the Tories who called the referendum from being in government. The Tories are closer to the SNP here than UKIP are.

    UKIP are more likely to have zero MPs next time than they are to sweep all before them like the SNP did.
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    @rcs - i posted my tips last night.

    Will reassess my book later and repost.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Some tory voters may be reflecting on that tough, militant eurosceptic MP they supposedly voted for and thinking....

    Hmmmnnnnn.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    MTimT said:

    JohnO said:

    I can't honestly say that the package thus far announced is particularly enticing (and will be difficult to sell) but I wonder whether Cameron is seeking to strengthen it at the Heads of Government meeting in a couple of weeks. I accept this may be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened...

    For that to have any chance of happening, he needs a stonkingly bad poll (i.e. big Leave majority) between now and then. If not, then the odds are that the other Heads of Government will weaken the gruel further.
    That has to be possible, most of the fence-sitters and soft Leavers on here (including myself) don't see any real substance to this deal at all.

    A couple of polls next week showing a move towards Leave might actually help the PM get a better deal at the conference.
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    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Alan Johnson says Labour WILL back a June referendum (after hints that it wouldn't) https://t.co/iS6C2a5hU7

    Stuff it, never mind June. Let's go for March 10.
    I might be on holiday in June, indeed will be in early June. Maybe that will let me off the hook and I will be conscience free to blame everyone no matter what happens. :-)
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2016
    Does anyone know whether the four years without in work benefits would include stopping immigrants from getting the 30 hours free childcare for working mothers announced today?
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    It looks like the political big beast team will be so skewed in favour of IN its not true.

    I wonder if Dave will put a powerful mate up for leave to make it look a bit fairer.
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    viewcode said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    I don't think that'll be the case. The 1970's referendum was preceded by an approx six-year campaign to mold public opinion (i.e. before the 1970 Heath Premiership), a consensus amongst the party big beasts on all sides that membership was a good thing, and a solid bloc of pro-EU reporting in the print media. Only the trade unions, some Labour MPs, and a small section of the public were vehemently agin.

    Now fast forward to the 2010's

    The Cold War government information apparatus is long gone, the big beast consensus is absent, the print media is vehemently anti-EU, Euroscepticism is common amongst the public. The weapons available to the REMAIN side are absent and the numbers small. The weapons available to the LEAVE side are large - a vicious press, an agreeable commentariat, an engaged public - and it looks like a slam dunk for LEAVE.

    As I said to SeanT some while ago: when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?
    Your question is petty. People will think that the argument has been won by their side no matter what.
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    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    The opportunity for Boris is yawningly wide. It's his one chance of being leader and PM, he must realise that (esp now May has gone europhile)
    The Leave camp does not need another charismatic but flaky leader. It needed and needs someone dull, stodgy and undeniably serious. Theresa May was their big hope.

    This, rather than the deal being provisionally unveiled today, may be the point where Leave lost.
    Very unexpected. She's bottled it.

    And blown her leadership chances too.
    What about Hammond? (Although I hear he doesn't want to be PM)
    Surely he's compromised by having been FSec through the negotiations? Backing Leave would imply that he was completely at odds with the PM over his own job?
    No way will Hammond dance.
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    taffys said:

    Some tory voters may be reflecting on that tough, militant eurosceptic MP they supposedly voted for and thinking....

    Hmmmnnnnn.

    Then again maybe not.

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    Sandpit said:

    Did Hilary really win six coin tosses against Sanders? 63/1 on that happening, assuming unbiased coins.

    The Presidential gender coin toss has come up male 44 times in a row so maybe she can justify some affirmative tossing.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    taffys said:

    It looks like the political big beast team will be so skewed in favour of IN its not true.

    I wonder if Dave will put a powerful mate up for leave to make it look a bit fairer.

    Gove?

    Someone big has to do it, or they going to leave it to the likes of Hannan and Bone, people that the average Joe doesn't know?
  • Options

    SeanT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Remain needs to win by 60/40 at a bare minimum to settle it for a generation etc etc.

    I doubt they will do that.

    I bet we will be revisiting the idea of a referendum within 10 years. Maybe much less if the EU falls apart.
    I'm expecting 60/40 Remain minimum simply because whenever Leave are asked what comes next after a Leave vote you get a lot of spluttering, "search me guv" and angry expostulations about the wickedness of the EU.
    If Leave are hammered it will be because they are rudderless and leaderless.

    There will also be a reckoning for the spineless senior Tories who buckled and backed Remain at the last minute.
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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    @tnewtondunn · 7m7 minutes ago
    Breaking: Theresa May says draft EU agreement is the "basis for a deal". A big intervention, clearest sign yet she will campaign for Remain.

    This is important and for me unexpected. David Cameron might not be much cop at negotiating with the EU but he knows how to do it with Cabinet colleagues.

    Those cabinet members and senior MPs who have professed to be filled to the gills with euro-scepticism over the years better start putting up or shutting up to be honest.
    If remain wins UKIP will do very well out of all these newly found europhiles. It would be impossible to argue that the Tories are even soft Eurosceptics.

    Priti Patel could be worth a punt for leader. Her voting record is dubious when it comes to the EU so could see her backing remain as well.
    Why would people vote for UKIP if the referendum is clearly defeated? What's UKIP's pitch going to be? Vote for us and we promise to get very angry?
    Are you seriously suggesting that the debate will be settled after a vote to remain? I can think of a huge number of reasons why it would not be settled.

    Scottish Labour displayed similar arrogance. That worked out well for them.
    Remain needs to win by 60/40 at a bare minimum to settle it for a generation etc etc.

    I doubt they will do that.

    I bet we will be revisiting the idea of a referendum within 10 years. Maybe much less if the EU falls apart.
    I'm expecting 60/40 Remain minimum simply because whenever Leave are asked what comes next after a Leave vote you get a lot of spluttering, "search me guv" and angry expostulations about the wickedness of the EU.
    You got exactly the same reaction if you asked a Nat about currency, central bank, EU membership, etc, following indyref YES. Yet YES got within ten point of NO, and was close to winning a week beforehand.

    YES was backed by the Scottish government.

    To be a fair comparison we would need the British government to be backing Leave.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Someone big has to do it, or they going to leave it to the likes of Hannan and Bone, people that the average Joe doesn't know?''

    If its too one sided people will start to suspect something. And Britain loves an underdog.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    Re US elections:

    Sell Hillary for next POTUS. She's still at evens, for someone who might not even be the Democratic nominee, and who would be slaughtered by Rubio and would probably lose to Trump. Sell her all the way out to 2.4. (I admit a small interest in this market.)

    Buy Trump for POTUS. He's at almost 10, for someone who is a 50% shot for the nomination, and would probably beat Hillary. Buy him into 6s.

    Ted Cruz is too expensive for the Republican nomination, I'd still be selling him. (Albeit I hate laying people at relatively long odds.) He's simply got to pull out a strong second in South Carolina to stay in the race, and I think he'll drift to third. And third is death. He should be 10 to 11 in my view.

    It is staggering that Sanders is almost the same chance as Trump for the Presidency. And, after New Hampshire, he will lose almost every state. Even if he got the nomination, he would lose to... pretty much any Republican, including Cruz. Continue to sell him.
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    I'm expecting 60/40 Remain minimum simply because whenever Leave are asked what comes next after a Leave vote you get a lot of spluttering, "search me guv" and angry expostulations about the wickedness of the EU.

    ... and accusations of dishonesty and Europhilia for asking the question!
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    It looks like the political big beast team will be so skewed in favour of IN its not true.

    I wonder if Dave will put a powerful mate up for leave to make it look a bit fairer.

    Gove?

    Someone big has to do it, or they going to leave it to the likes of Hannan and Bone, people that the average Joe doesn't know?
    But equally, as someone said the other day, you wouldn't want to be the only senior figure standing next to Philip Bone.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,006
    I am staggeringly long Bloomberg for POTUS having hoovered up a huge amount in the high hundreds. After Sanders and Trump win NH, and Bloomberg inevitably comes in a bit, I will start to sell it down.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828

    viewcode said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    I don't think that'll be the case. The 1970's referendum was preceded by an approx six-year campaign to mold public opinion (i.e. before the 1970 Heath Premiership), a consensus amongst the party big beasts on all sides that membership was a good thing, and a solid bloc of pro-EU reporting in the print media. Only the trade unions, some Labour MPs, and a small section of the public were vehemently agin.

    Now fast forward to the 2010's

    The Cold War government information apparatus is long gone, the big beast consensus is absent, the print media is vehemently anti-EU, Euroscepticism is common amongst the public. The weapons available to the REMAIN side are absent and the numbers small. The weapons available to the LEAVE side are large - a vicious press, an agreeable commentariat, an engaged public - and it looks like a slam dunk for LEAVE.

    As I said to SeanT some while ago: when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?
    Your question is petty. People will think that the argument has been won by their side no matter what.
    I'm sure they will,but my question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") is not petty.

    Elections are not just battles of ideas. Opinions can be swayed, questions can be framed to elicit the correct response, the other side can be mocked, money can be deployed to change minds. People do not spend all day thinking on these matters so fashion and opinionmakers can be deployed to make person X vote in way Y. REMAIN are poorly equipped in this regard and although the various LEAVE campaigns are lacking/contradictory, a hostile press has easily stepped in to deploy good old British journalism in the....familiar manner. My question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") illustrates this.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Whether or not Mitchell ever said the word pleb, this officer behaved disgracefully, outright lying for political purposes, but I fear will probably get off regardless

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35473743
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    Sandpit said:

    Did Hilary really win six coin tosses against Sanders? 63/1 on that happening, assuming unbiased coins.

    The Presidential gender coin toss has come up male 44 times in a row so maybe she can justify some affirmative tossing.
    It's really 66 times in a row: 57 elections, plus 9 in-term successions.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    I don't think that'll be the case. The 1970's referendum was preceded by an approx six-year campaign to mold public opinion (i.e. before the 1970 Heath Premiership), a consensus amongst the party big beasts on all sides that membership was a good thing, and a solid bloc of pro-EU reporting in the print media. Only the trade unions, some Labour MPs, and a small section of the public were vehemently agin.

    Now fast forward to the 2010's

    The Cold War government information apparatus is long gone, the big beast consensus is absent, the print media is vehemently anti-EU, Euroscepticism is common amongst the public. The weapons available to the REMAIN side are absent and the numbers small. The weapons available to the LEAVE side are large - a vicious press, an agreeable commentariat, an engaged public - and it looks like a slam dunk for LEAVE.

    As I said to SeanT some while ago: when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?
    Your question is petty. People will think that the argument has been won by their side no matter what.
    I'm sure they will,but my question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") is not petty.

    Elections are not just battles of ideas. Opinions can be swayed, questions can be framed to elicit the correct response, the other side can be mocked, money can be deployed to change minds. People do not spend all day thinking on these matters so fashion and opinionmakers can be deployed to make person X vote in way Y. REMAIN are poorly equipped in this regard and although the various LEAVE campaigns are lacking/contradictory, a hostile press has easily stepped in to deploy good old British journalism in the....familiar manner. My question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") illustrates this.
    Imo it's a very good question. On the Pro-EU side too much reliance was placed on simply never having a referendum and the actual argument has long since been ceded by default. We should have had an in/out referendum years ago.
  • Options
    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    SeanT said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
    With all due respect, fuck off. if you believe deep down - morally, personally - in a cause, then you continue to pursue it even if you are defeated politically.

    Perhaps William Wilberforce should have accepted his initial rebuffs and said Ah well, that's settled, we'll keep slavery for another generation.

    I speak as someone undecided on this issue. But I respect the right of both sides to campaign for what they believe, and for referendums to enact this, even if they lose this year. This is especially true of Europe, which has been AWFULLY keen on multiple referendums, until the public vote the right way.
    And I don't remember a referendum on slavery, but I might have missed it. We will be better off in the EU I don't care about the minutiae but the Euro loons are completely obsessed to the exclusion on any pretense of good governance. Anyone would think that we had been dragged against our will into all the treaties and agreements and have had the directives foisted upon them. Absolute rubbish we've played a part in fashioning all of them.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Sandpit said:

    Did Hilary really win six coin tosses against Sanders? 63/1 on that happening, assuming unbiased coins.

    The Presidential gender coin toss has come up male 44 times in a row so maybe she can justify some affirmative tossing.
    It's really 66 times in a row: 57 elections, plus 9 in-term successions.
    New research suggests Andrew Jackson was transgender.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Good evening all. I think it's likely that Remain will win, though the campaigns on both sides are poor trending to terrible.

    I'll just continue to be baffled by people's willingness to hitch this country to a walking corpse.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,828
    Wanderer said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    I don't think that'll be the case. The 1970's referendum was preceded by an approx six-year campaign to mold public opinion (i.e. before the 1970 Heath Premiership), a consensus amongst the party big beasts on all sides that membership was a good thing, and a solid bloc of pro-EU reporting in the print media. Only the trade unions, some Labour MPs, and a small section of the public were vehemently agin.

    Now fast forward to the 2010's

    The Cold War government information apparatus is long gone, the big beast consensus is absent, the print media is vehemently anti-EU, Euroscepticism is common amongst the public. The weapons available to the REMAIN side are absent and the numbers small. The weapons available to the LEAVE side are large - a vicious press, an agreeable commentariat, an engaged public - and it looks like a slam dunk for LEAVE.

    As I said to SeanT some while ago: when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?
    Your question is petty. People will think that the argument has been won by their side no matter what.
    I'm sure they will,but my question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") is not petty.

    Elections are not just battles of ideas. Opinions can be swayed, questions can be framed to elicit the correct response, the other side can be mocked, money can be deployed to change minds. People do not spend all day thinking on these matters so fashion and opinionmakers can be deployed to make person X vote in way Y. REMAIN are poorly equipped in this regard and although the various LEAVE campaigns are lacking/contradictory, a hostile press has easily stepped in to deploy good old British journalism in the....familiar manner. My question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") illustrates this.
    Imo it's a very good question. On the Pro-EU side too much reliance was placed on simply never having a referendum and the actual argument has long since been ceded by default. We should have had an in/out referendum years ago.
    Thank you.
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    I don't think that'll be the case. The 1970's referendum was preceded by an approx six-year campaign to mold public opinion (i.e. before the 1970 Heath Premiership), a consensus amongst the party big beasts on all sides that membership was a good thing, and a solid bloc of pro-EU reporting in the print media. Only the trade unions, some Labour MPs, and a small section of the public were vehemently agin.

    Now fast forward to the 2010's

    The Cold War government information apparatus is long gone, the big beast consensus is absent, the print media is vehemently anti-EU, Euroscepticism is common amongst the public. The weapons available to the REMAIN side are absent and the numbers small. The weapons available to the LEAVE side are large - a vicious press, an agreeable commentariat, an engaged public - and it looks like a slam dunk for LEAVE.

    As I said to SeanT some while ago: when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?
    Your question is petty. People will think that the argument has been won by their side no matter what.
    I'm sure they will,but my question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") is not petty.

    Elections are not just battles of ideas. Opinions can be swayed, questions can be framed to elicit the correct response, the other side can be mocked, money can be deployed to change minds. People do not spend all day thinking on these matters so fashion and opinionmakers can be deployed to make person X vote in way Y. REMAIN are poorly equipped in this regard and although the various LEAVE campaigns are lacking/contradictory, a hostile press has easily stepped in to deploy good old British journalism in the....familiar manner. My question ("when did REMAIN last win an argument or a battle?") illustrates this.
    If you support Remain (like the majority of the country according to bookies and phone pollsters and almost all of the Cabinet) then you probably think Remain have regularly won arguments.

    If you back Leave you probably think they haven't.

    How do you give an objective answer?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2016
    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
    With all due respect, fuck off. if you believe deep down - morally, personally - in a cause, then you continue to pursue it even if you are defeated politically.

    Perhaps William Wilberforce should have accepted his initial rebuffs and said Ah well, that's settled, we'll keep slavery for another generation.

    I speak as someone undecided on this issue. But I respect the right of both sides to campaign for what they believe, and for referendums to enact this, even if they lose this year. This is especially true of Europe, which has been AWFULLY keen on multiple referendums, until the public vote the right way.
    And I don't remember a referendum on slavery, but I might have missed it. We will be better off in the EU I don't care about the minutiae but the Euro loons are completely obsessed to the exclusion on any pretense of good governance. Anyone would think that we had been dragged against our will into all the treaties and agreements and have had the directives foisted upon them. Absolute rubbish we've played a part in fashioning all of them.
    If the result is Leave 50.01%, Remain 49.99%, will you call for another referendum?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    AndyJS said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
    With all due respect, fuck off. if you believe deep down - morally, personally - in a cause, then you continue to pursue it even if you are defeated politically.

    Perhaps William Wilberforce should have accepted his initial rebuffs and said Ah well, that's settled, we'll keep slavery for another generation.

    I speak as someone undecided on this issue. But I respect the right of both sides to campaign for what they believe, and for referendums to enact this, even if they lose this year. This is especially true of Europe, which has been AWFULLY keen on multiple referendums, until the public vote the right way.
    And I don't remember a referendum on slavery, but I might have missed it. We will be better off in the EU I don't care about the minutiae but the Euro loons are completely obsessed to the exclusion on any pretense of good governance. Anyone would think that we had been dragged against our will into all the treaties and agreements and have had the directives foisted upon them. Absolute rubbish we've played a part in fashioning all of them.
    If the result is Leave 50.01%, Remain 49.99%, will you call for another referendum?
    I hope it is decisive either way. I can imagine the EU asking us to try again if your scenario occurs.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited February 2016
    AndyJS said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
    With all due respect, fuck off. if you believe deep down - morally, personally - in a cause, then you continue to pursue it even if you are defeated politically.

    Perhaps William Wilberforce should have accepted his initial rebuffs and said Ah well, that's settled, we'll keep slavery for another generation.

    I speak as someone undecided on this issue. But I respect the right of both sides to campaign for what they believe, and for referendums to enact this, even if they lose this year. This is especially true of Europe, which has been AWFULLY keen on multiple referendums, until the public vote the right way.
    And I don't remember a referendum on slavery, but I might have missed it. We will be better off in the EU I don't care about the minutiae but the Euro loons are completely obsessed to the exclusion on any pretense of good governance. Anyone would think that we had been dragged against our will into all the treaties and agreements and have had the directives foisted upon them. Absolute rubbish we've played a part in fashioning all of them.
    If the result is Leave 50.01%, Remain 49.99%, will you call for another referendum?
    I'd call for a recount first.
  • Options
    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    AndyJS said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    The one thing you can bet your house on is that come the Friday morning when we've voted 2 to 1 (again) to remain, the Tory Euro loons will still be "banging on about Europe".

    Nothing wrong with that - free speech and so on. But those Cabinet members who have sat on the fence better not be among them. Having said that I look forward a couple of years to when they start saying 'well, we thought Dave had got a good deal, but now looking at it again...' Pathetic.
    Yes there is. We've had the last 25 years of the Tories banging on about Europe and saying that the people need a choice. Give the people a choice and they still won't be satisfied. We've already seen people on here getting their excuses ready this evening.
    With all due respect, fuck off. if you believe deep down - morally, personally - in a cause, then you continue to pursue it even if you are defeated politically.

    Perhaps William Wilberforce should have accepted his initial rebuffs and said Ah well, that's settled, we'll keep slavery for another generation.

    I speak as someone undecided on this issue. But I respect the right of both sides to campaign for what they believe, and for referendums to enact this, even if they lose this year. This is especially true of Europe, which has been AWFULLY keen on multiple referendums, until the public vote the right way.
    And I don't remember a referendum on slavery, but I might have missed it. We will be better off in the EU I don't care about the minutiae but the Euro loons are completely obsessed to the exclusion on any pretense of good governance. Anyone would think that we had been dragged against our will into all the treaties and agreements and have had the directives foisted upon them. Absolute rubbish we've played a part in fashioning all of them.
    If the result is Leave 50.01%, Remain 49.99%, will you call for another referendum?
    No
This discussion has been closed.