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Will the UK’s unelected ruler take the advice of America’s unelected ruler? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    Smiley's People was filmed

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083480/

    Complete with Capt. Picard as Karla.

    In the remake that you watched the mis-casting of Mark Strong as Jim Prideaux annoyed. Ian Bannen had the right kind of savagery.
    John Le Carre went off the rails.

    But, his Smiley stories were incredible.

    Marcus Wolf, head of the Stasi loved them, and thought Le Carre must have had some high level contact, to depict his organisation so accurately.
    One of the things I liked about the Operation Mincemeat was that everyone in the intelligence service was writing a book of some sort.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    edited January 3

    ...

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Yes the golden legacy has been squandered in six months.

    I am surprised at the enthusiasm on here for the overthrow of the recently elected Government. If Chas won't play ball with Musk, how many assassinations does he need for a VONC to pass?

    And you lot said I was an enemy of democracy for asking for a second EU referendum.
    Yesterday you accused me of flagging and had to apologise, and today I said it is nonsense to think a GE will be before 2029 and suggest I support the overthrow of the government - Really ?
    I accused you of flagging because under your name it said "I flagged you". When it was pointed out to me that the quotes were not working correctly I apologised to you (twice).

    I was not directly referring to you in my post, although I was replying to your post. However, if you feel the cap fits, wear it.

    You don't seem to approve of Centrist Dad posters these days. If you have problem with us posting, flag and send a request to the mods to have all or some of us removed.
    Christ on a bike, you STILL banging on about this. Give it a rest. I thought you pair kissed and made up yesterday.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,022
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    Yes. Amongst the best things you can do with a tv.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    Wes Streeting says the government is willing to work with Elon Musk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/elon-musk-keir-starmer-grooming-wes-streeting-b2673339.html
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,022

    Wes Streeting says the government is willing to work with Elon Musk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/elon-musk-keir-starmer-grooming-wes-streeting-b2673339.html

    Ah.. the soon to be vacant PM spot. (This New New Labour are even more insane than the last try)
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    ...

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Yes the golden legacy has been squandered in six months.

    I am surprised at the enthusiasm on here for the overthrow of the recently elected Government. If Chas won't play ball with Musk, how many assassinations does he need for a VONC to pass?

    And you lot said I was an enemy of democracy for asking for a second EU referendum.
    The golden legacy.

    PMSL
    You don't do irony do you?
    I was laughing with you.

    Not at you
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,143
    edited January 3
    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services to local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.
    Tax the &*$~ out of airbnb.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314

    Wes Streeting says the government is willing to work with Elon Musk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/elon-musk-keir-starmer-grooming-wes-streeting-b2673339.html

    Someone has obviously realised that Musk won't get bored and the longer he broadcasts this the worse it gets for Labour (and specifically Starmer who was DPP at the time). I hope EM keeps pushing for a full public inquiry and forced Labour into it, this needs to be brought to light and, I think, the currently hidden from public details also need to be opened up to scrutiny. The longer this festers the worse I think public trust in politicians will get. As I said around the time of the riots, the reason people don't believe the police or authorities is because of the rape gangs and the cover ups to protect the Muslim perpetrator, so when the police and authorities were quick to rule out terrorism to seemingly protect an immigrant terrorist why should anyone believe it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services to local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.
    Tax the &*$~ out of airbnb.
    Right at the very top of the list of sh!tty tech companies.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,241

    ydoethur said:

    biggles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Wes Streeting urges households to turn their heating on this weekend

    If true to form this could be the weekend the media concentrate on shivering pensioners !!!!

    Well, yes.

    I mean, you usually turn the heating on when it's cold.

    Unless it's an Australian heating system and comes on in their winter, like my old school seemed to have.
    How many people still have a hearing system that you turn on?

    As opposed to setting the thermostat to 20 and forgetting about it.
    20? Put a jumper on man!

    Mrs Biggles would like you. I go for 17 and she raises it to 20. It oscillates through the day.

    Mind you we do also have a coal fire as an affectation.
    17? Wuss!

    Mine's on 15.

    (Admittedly that's because I'm in my office which is heated by a less than adequate electric radiator battling valiantly but unsuccessfully against the cold outside.)
    Always a battle with the Wifey to stop her setting the heating at a "parky" 28...

    She could live in a volcano - and still complain there was a chilly breeze coming in somewhere.
    And yet, still, manage to put her naked cold feet on your legs in the middle of the night both of which have a temperature of minus 28.
    Have you, er, slept with my wife?
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    edited January 3
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    edited January 3

    ...

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Yes the golden legacy has been squandered in six months.

    I am surprised at the enthusiasm on here for the overthrow of the recently elected Government. If Chas won't play ball with Musk, how many assassinations does he need for a VONC to pass?

    And you lot said I was an enemy of democracy for asking for a second EU referendum.
    Yesterday you accused me of flagging and had to apologise, and today I said it is nonsense to think a GE will be before 2029 and suggest I support the overthrow of the government - Really ?
    I accused you of flagging because under your name it said "I flagged you". When it was pointed out to me that the quotes were not working correctly I apologised to you (twice).

    I was not directly referring to you in my post, although I was replying to your post. However, if you feel the cap fits, wear it.

    You don't seem to approve of Centrist Dad posters these days. If you have problem with us posting, flag and send a request to the mods to have all or some of us removed.
    Your problem is the use of 'you lot' under my post and unlike you, and as I said yesterday , I do not approve of flagging a post and have not nor never will do so
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,241
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
    Well, if Wales can get away with tourist taxes...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    edited January 3

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
    Well, if Wales can get away with tourist taxes...
    There is a lot of anger here from hotels and the holiday industry but that won't stop it happening from 2027

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6kwdw6n05o
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707

    ydoethur said:

    Wes Streeting urges households to turn their heating on this weekend

    If true to form this could be the weekend the media concentrate on shivering pensioners !!!!

    Well, yes.

    I mean, you usually turn the heating on when it's cold.

    Unless it's an Australian heating system and comes on in their winter, like my old school seemed to have.
    How many people still have a hearing system that you turn on?

    As opposed to setting the thermostat to 20 and forgetting about it.
    Yes. Me. Those wall-mounted heaters with bricks in them that you heat up in the night with cheap lecky and it releases during the day. I don't have a thermostat
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,059
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    Wes Streeting urges households to turn their heating on this weekend

    If true to form this could be the weekend the media concentrate on shivering pensioners !!!!

    Well, yes.

    I mean, you usually turn the heating on when it's cold.

    Unless it's an Australian heating system and comes on in their winter, like my old school seemed to have.
    How many people still have a hearing system that you turn on?

    As opposed to setting the thermostat to 20 and forgetting about it.
    Yes. Me. Those wall-mounted heaters with bricks in them that you heat up in the night with cheap lecky and it releases during the day. I don't have a thermostat
    I control our heating entirely from my app on my phone

    Often put it on when returning home from visiting family
  • It's interesting to see people refer to the racist paedophile rape gangs as "Rotherham", or "Rotherham and Rochdale". I haven't been counting, but i think that there have been around twenty towns that have had trials of racist paedophile gang rapists connected to them

    There's also a very troubling tendency to pretend that the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators being from one ethnic and religious group is totally normal, because 90% of CSE offences are committed by white men
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,704
    edited January 3
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourism is just a poor way of making money. It doesn’t scale well or become more efficient and its heavily seasonal with generic service sector work.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
    Well, if Wales can get away with tourist taxes...
    There is a lot of anger here from hotels and the holiday industry but that won't stop it happening from 2027

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6kwdw6n05o
    The problem isn’t generally the existing hotels, it’s the many residential properties being converted to short-term lets that make like difficult and more expensive for the locals.

    There should be 100% tax on AirBnB that offsets council tax for locals.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707
    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    I think the BBC TTSS is as good as it gets, but the BBC Smiley's People was a bit too arch and rambly. Legacy of Spies (Le Carre's last book with Smiley in it?) is my bath book (hardback, second-hand, can withstand bubbles and drops within reason) and it's really good. Like many other authors, Le Carre tried to tie together his strands in his last days. It usually doesn't work, but this time it did and LoS has the characters of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and their children interact with the characters of TTSS via Peter Guillam, who contacts the now-elderly George Smiley at the end. It was post-Referendum and Le Carre gives Smiley a whacking big pro-Europe speech which, whilst plausible, does stick out.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470

    Wes Streeting says the government is willing to work with Elon Musk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/elon-musk-keir-starmer-grooming-wes-streeting-b2673339.html

    "...to facilitate his arrival on Mars at the earliest opportunity."


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    RobD said:

    Omnium said:

    ...

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Yes the golden legacy has been squandered in six months.

    I am surprised at the enthusiasm on here for the overthrow of the recently elected Government. If Chas won't play ball with Musk, how many assassinations does he need for a VONC to pass?

    And you lot said I was an enemy of democracy for asking for a second EU referendum.
    Is anyone really advocating such things here?
    Musk has asked for Chas to dissolve Parliament and for Phillips to be imprisoned, oh and Tommy Ten Names to be released. Hands up all those in favour.
    But no one on PB has enthusiastically supported it.
    Yes they have. You're not paying attention.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    It's interesting to see people refer to the racist paedophile rape gangs as "Rotherham", or "Rotherham and Rochdale". I haven't been counting, but i think that there have been around twenty towns that have had trials of racist paedophile gang rapists connected to them

    There's also a very troubling tendency to pretend that the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators being from one ethnic and religious group is totally normal, because 90% of CSE offences are committed by white men

    We had a couple in Newcastle. The last one several men jailed including two who had previously been accused and found not guilty in 2016. Suffice to say, at the time, the BBC gave them fawning press coverage and allowed their claims that the complainants were motivated by racism to go unchallenged.

    https://thecritic.co.uk/newsnight-and-the-rapist/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1875256174427197694

    Farage on Robinson:

    “There are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That’s the narrative that he’s pushed out. That’s how he earns his living but it isn’t quite true. We’re a political party aiming to win the next general election. He’s not what we need.”
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,129
    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    Omnium said:

    ...

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Yes the golden legacy has been squandered in six months.

    I am surprised at the enthusiasm on here for the overthrow of the recently elected Government. If Chas won't play ball with Musk, how many assassinations does he need for a VONC to pass?

    And you lot said I was an enemy of democracy for asking for a second EU referendum.
    Is anyone really advocating such things here?
    Musk has asked for Chas to dissolve Parliament and for Phillips to be imprisoned, oh and Tommy Ten Names to be released. Hands up all those in favour.
    But no one on PB has enthusiastically supported it.
    Yes they have. You're not paying attention.
    Where's this enthusiastic support for what Musk proposed then?
  • https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1875256174427197694

    Farage on Robinson:

    “There are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That’s the narrative that he’s pushed out. That’s how he earns his living but it isn’t quite true. We’re a political party aiming to win the next general election. He’s not what we need.”

    This will be confusing for Prez Musk.
    Tommy and Nigel are saving Britaint together, he believes, and Nigel has already personally sucked up to him.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    edited January 3
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    I think the BBC TTSS is as good as it gets, but the BBC Smiley's People was a bit too arch and rambly. Legacy of Spies (Le Carre's last book with Smiley in it?) is my bath book (hardback, second-hand, can withstand bubbles and drops within reason) and it's really good. Like many other authors, Le Carre tried to tie together his strands in his last days. It usually doesn't work, but this time it did and LoS has the characters of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and their children interact with the characters of TTSS via Peter Guillam, who contacts the now-elderly George Smiley at the end. It was post-Referendum and Le Carre gives Smiley a whacking big pro-Europe speech which, whilst plausible, does stick out.
    "In from" with Burton is a great film of a great book imo. Every scene, every word of dialogue impossible to improve. Plot, atmosphere, characters, all aspects work brilliantly. So concise too. There's no flab at all.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    Omnium said:

    ...

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Yes the golden legacy has been squandered in six months.

    I am surprised at the enthusiasm on here for the overthrow of the recently elected Government. If Chas won't play ball with Musk, how many assassinations does he need for a VONC to pass?

    And you lot said I was an enemy of democracy for asking for a second EU referendum.
    Is anyone really advocating such things here?
    Musk has asked for Chas to dissolve Parliament and for Phillips to be imprisoned, oh and Tommy Ten Names to be released. Hands up all those in favour.
    But no one on PB has enthusiastically supported it.
    Yes they have. You're not paying attention.
    Where's this enthusiastic support for what Musk proposed then?
    Oh I'm not doing that names thing. Just pay attention.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    I think the BBC TTSS is as good as it gets, but the BBC Smiley's People was a bit too arch and rambly. Legacy of Spies (Le Carre's last book with Smiley in it?) is my bath book (hardback, second-hand, can withstand bubbles and drops within reason) and it's really good. Like many other authors, Le Carre tried to tie together his strands in his last days. It usually doesn't work, but this time it did and LoS has the characters of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and their children interact with the characters of TTSS via Peter Guillam, who contacts the now-elderly George Smiley at the end. It was post-Referendum and Le Carre gives Smiley a whacking big pro-Europe speech which, whilst plausible, does stick out.
    I will watch Smileys People on my holiday flights in March. I remember little of it although I did like A Perfect Spy. Not the same characters but the BBC version was very good.

    I can’t remember the last time I had a bath, seeing that comment .

    I didn’t realise Le Carre was still writing as late as that too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Sick jokes, they are.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1875256174427197694

    Farage on Robinson:

    “There are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That’s the narrative that he’s pushed out. That’s how he earns his living but it isn’t quite true. We’re a political party aiming to win the next general election. He’s not what we need.”

    Some of us might have wondered this morning, why this distancing hadn’t yet happened.

    “Tommy” had managed to get himself a reputation in the States as a defender of free speech, as opposed to a total idiot who ignores courts and judges, and the British ‘mainstream’ right need to publically disown him and quickly.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1875256174427197694

    Farage on Robinson:

    “There are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That’s the narrative that he’s pushed out. That’s how he earns his living but it isn’t quite true. We’re a political party aiming to win the next general election. He’s not what we need.”

    He was most emphatic about it on ITV news too. It’s a free hit for him. Like Labour refusing to allow Derek Hatton to rejoin the party.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,637

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1875256174427197694

    Farage on Robinson:

    “There are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That’s the narrative that he’s pushed out. That’s how he earns his living but it isn’t quite true. We’re a political party aiming to win the next general election. He’s not what we need.”

    What a pro.

    Especially that "quite" halfway through. Neither embracing or completely shunning Tommy R. Jenrick, Badenoch, Carswell go off the deep end, Farage stays one step back.

    I don't like what Farage does, but I have to admit that he does it well.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    edited January 3
    Mike Johnson wins the House Speaker election. Thomas Massie the only GOP defector.

    Now they can get on with the rest of their business.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    Speaker Mike Johnson on Friday salvaged his bid to win another term in a dramatic turn on the House floor after he won over a pair of conservative holdouts who initially opposed him, denying him the majority needed to prevail.

    NY Times blog
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,482
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I see that there has been the usual outrage about the appalling rape and abuse of girls.

    Understandably - given the horrific nature of what was done and described in the transcripts of the sentencing remarks. What was done was horrific.

    But was it that much more horrific than what you can find on internet porn sites easily enough? Indeed, how many of the men were carrying out in real life what they saw on porn sites? And how many of those men expressing outrage are equally outraged about the abuse of girls routinely uploaded to pornhub etc?

    Or in the fact that allegations of choking - common in porn - are an increasing factor in rape allegations - https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/choking-allegations-rape-cases-scotland-drc7p27df?

    Or is the outrage only about who is doing these dreadful things? And conveniently ignoring all the other types of men who have done horrific things to women, girls, children (of both sexes) in all sorts of places and institutions for decades and decades while people turned a blind eye and promoted those in charge rather than holding anyone accountable?


    Have you read some of the more hideous details from the rape gang sentencing? I’m not urging you to do so. They are profoundly disturbing. What’s incredible is that reporters in the courts say that even MORE disturbing details are still being repressed - to keep the public peace

    What on earth are they?

    As for your well-meant remarks on porn, actually, no, you could not and cannot - thank God - find anything this depraved online or anywhere

    If such porn exists - I hope and pray it doesn’t - it will stuff bought and sold on the dark web, or whatever
    I have.

    I have - in my professional capacity - seen and read about some extremely disturbing stuff online. I am afraid that I don't agree with your belief that you cannot find this stuff online. I think that the role of extreme porn in degrading male sexuality and the consequent harm to women and children needs to be faced up to and addressed. It's not just the cultural/ethnic origins of the perpetrators our society likes to turn a blind eye to.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
    Well, if Wales can get away with tourist taxes...
    There is a lot of anger here from hotels and the holiday industry but that won't stop it happening from 2027

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj6kwdw6n05o
    The problem isn’t generally the existing hotels, it’s the many residential properties being converted to short-term lets that make like difficult and more expensive for the locals.

    There should be 100% tax on AirBnB that offsets council tax for locals.
    They should also be regulated too. A statutory licensing system, with minimum standards needed, has and electric certs, business insurance etc etc.

    Places like Seahouses have so many homes now that are holiday lets. I get the locals frustration. It doesnt need banning it needs regulation
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    Sandpit said:

    Mike Johnson wins the House Speaker election. Thomas Massie the only GOP defector.

    Now they can get on with the rest of their business.

    "It’s not immediately clear why Norman and Self changed their votes, but they will likely be swarmed by reporters on their way out of the chamber to explain their reasoning."

    NY Times blog

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    https://x.com/mrharrycole/status/1875256174427197694

    Farage on Robinson:

    “There are people in Britain who think that Robinson is a political prisoner. That’s the narrative that he’s pushed out. That’s how he earns his living but it isn’t quite true. We’re a political party aiming to win the next general election. He’s not what we need.”

    What a pro.

    Especially that "quite" halfway through. Neither embracing or completely shunning Tommy R. Jenrick, Badenoch, Carswell go off the deep end, Farage stays one step back.

    I don't like what Farage does, but I have to admit that he does it well.
    Yes that's slimy skillful. Will it hold for 4 years though?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    Is that Angela Rayner’s younger sister with the microphone at the darts final?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707
    edited January 3
    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    I think the BBC TTSS is as good as it gets, but the BBC Smiley's People was a bit too arch and rambly. Legacy of Spies (Le Carre's last book with Smiley in it?) is my bath book (hardback, second-hand, can withstand bubbles and drops within reason) and it's really good. Like many other authors, Le Carre tried to tie together his strands in his last days. It usually doesn't work, but this time it did and LoS has the characters of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and their children interact with the characters of TTSS via Peter Guillam, who contacts the now-elderly George Smiley at the end. It was post-Referendum and Le Carre gives Smiley a whacking big pro-Europe speech which, whilst plausible, does stick out.
    I will watch Smileys People on my holiday flights in March. I remember little of it although I did like A Perfect Spy. Not the same characters but the BBC version was very good.

    I can’t remember the last time I had a bath, seeing that comment .

    I didn’t realise Le Carre was still writing as late as that too.
    Yup. LoS was published in 2017: Le Carre was 86 and died three years later.

    Unbelievably, "A Perfect Spy" is on iPlayer! Enjoy! https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b008bjg1/a-perfect-spy-episode-1
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,826
    edited January 3
    Sandpit said:

    Is that Angela Rayner’s younger sister with the microphone at the darts final?

    I still miss the walk on girls

    Best walk on still Wayne Mardles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RW9UHTUgRQ
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I see that there has been the usual outrage about the appalling rape and abuse of girls.

    Understandably - given the horrific nature of what was done and described in the transcripts of the sentencing remarks. What was done was horrific.

    But was it that much more horrific than what you can find on internet porn sites easily enough? Indeed, how many of the men were carrying out in real life what they saw on porn sites? And how many of those men expressing outrage are equally outraged about the abuse of girls routinely uploaded to pornhub etc?

    Or in the fact that allegations of choking - common in porn - are an increasing factor in rape allegations - https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/choking-allegations-rape-cases-scotland-drc7p27df?

    Or is the outrage only about who is doing these dreadful things? And conveniently ignoring all the other types of men who have done horrific things to women, girls, children (of both sexes) in all sorts of places and institutions for decades and decades while people turned a blind eye and promoted those in charge rather than holding anyone accountable?


    Have you read some of the more hideous details from the rape gang sentencing? I’m not urging you to do so. They are profoundly disturbing. What’s incredible is that reporters in the courts say that even MORE disturbing details are still being repressed - to keep the public peace

    What on earth are they?

    As for your well-meant remarks on porn, actually, no, you could not and cannot - thank God - find anything this depraved online or anywhere

    If such porn exists - I hope and pray it doesn’t - it will stuff bought and sold on the dark web, or whatever
    I have.

    I have - in my professional capacity - seen and read about some extremely disturbing stuff online. I am afraid that I don't agree with your belief that you cannot find this stuff online. I think that the role of extreme porn in degrading male sexuality and the consequent harm to women and children needs to be faced up to and addressed. It's not just the cultural/ethnic origins of the perpetrators our society likes to turn a blind eye to.
    I’m coming to agree that there’s much truth in feminist critique of porn.

    Though it seems that much porn is faux lesbian porn, which generally does not depict abuse.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,763
    edited January 3
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    I think the BBC TTSS is as good as it gets, but the BBC Smiley's People was a bit too arch and rambly. Legacy of Spies (Le Carre's last book with Smiley in it?) is my bath book (hardback, second-hand, can withstand bubbles and drops within reason) and it's really good. Like many other authors, Le Carre tried to tie together his strands in his last days. It usually doesn't work, but this time it did and LoS has the characters of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and their children interact with the characters of TTSS via Peter Guillam, who contacts the now-elderly George Smiley at the end. It was post-Referendum and Le Carre gives Smiley a whacking big pro-Europe speech which, whilst plausible, does stick out.
    Pleased to se other people have bath books! Mine is (currently) an old copy of Rodger's first volume of his naval history of Britain, this one called the The Safeguard of the Sea and covering the early years. (Now on Eliz I and Philip II wondering what to do next after the Armada.)

    PS: and have ordfered LoS. Haven't read it ...
  • MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Absolutely.

    In case anyone forgets, in August he was essentially urging on civil war in this country. And for all his early slip-uos, Starner has still got no credit, even among left-of-centre outlets, for using all his DPO experience to essentially prevent a total breakdown of order, then.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    "A "cowardly" man murdered a pub goer with one punch after he thought he was making fun of his partner's karaoke singing.

    Christopher Cooper, 39, punched 64-year-old Kelvin Evans, from Gorseinon, Swansea, once to the head outside the Station Hotel pub on 26 May 2023."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c938eny5xj5o

    When I witter on about there being too much violence in our society, this is the sort of place a seemingly small and pointless altercation can lead.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    Sandpit said:

    Is that Angela Rayner’s younger sister with the microphone at the darts final?

    I still miss the walk on girls

    Best walk on still Wayne Mardles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RW9UHTUgRQ
    Ah, Hawaii 5 or 1 as he was known.

    Yes, a good walk on.
  • DPP experience, that should say there, ofciurse.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    Taz said:

    It's interesting to see people refer to the racist paedophile rape gangs as "Rotherham", or "Rotherham and Rochdale". I haven't been counting, but i think that there have been around twenty towns that have had trials of racist paedophile gang rapists connected to them

    There's also a very troubling tendency to pretend that the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators being from one ethnic and religious group is totally normal, because 90% of CSE offences are committed by white men

    We had a couple in Newcastle. The last one several men jailed including two who had previously been accused and found not guilty in 2016. Suffice to say, at the time, the BBC gave them fawning press coverage and allowed their claims that the complainants were motivated by racism to go unchallenged.

    https://thecritic.co.uk/newsnight-and-the-rapist/
    When there's a false allegation, the BBC loves to discuss the issue:



    Channel 4 has a whole multi-part series on the "Fake Grooming Gang Scandal" later this month:

    https://www.channel4.com/press/news/channel-4-commissions-expectation-make-three-part-documentary-series-exploring

    Wonder if it will air.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    None of this applies to the August riots that Musk also amplified.
  • Just sad to see another user be taken in by Elon Musk.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    .
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I see that there has been the usual outrage about the appalling rape and abuse of girls.

    Understandably - given the horrific nature of what was done and described in the transcripts of the sentencing remarks. What was done was horrific.

    But was it that much more horrific than what you can find on internet porn sites easily enough? Indeed, how many of the men were carrying out in real life what they saw on porn sites? And how many of those men expressing outrage are equally outraged about the abuse of girls routinely uploaded to pornhub etc?

    Or in the fact that allegations of choking - common in porn - are an increasing factor in rape allegations - https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/choking-allegations-rape-cases-scotland-drc7p27df?

    Or is the outrage only about who is doing these dreadful things? And conveniently ignoring all the other types of men who have done horrific things to women, girls, children (of both sexes) in all sorts of places and institutions for decades and decades while people turned a blind eye and promoted those in charge rather than holding anyone accountable?


    Have you read some of the more hideous details from the rape gang sentencing? I’m not urging you to do so. They are profoundly disturbing. What’s incredible is that reporters in the courts say that even MORE disturbing details are still being repressed - to keep the public peace

    What on earth are they?

    As for your well-meant remarks on porn, actually, no, you could not and cannot - thank God - find anything this depraved online or anywhere

    If such porn exists - I hope and pray it doesn’t - it will stuff bought and sold on the dark web, or whatever
    I have.

    I have - in my professional capacity - seen and read about some extremely disturbing stuff online. I am afraid that I don't agree with your belief that you cannot find this stuff online. I think that the role of extreme porn in degrading male sexuality and the consequent harm to women and children needs to be faced up to and addressed. It's not just the cultural/ethnic origins of the perpetrators our society likes to turn a blind eye to.
    Your larger point, I think, is that sexual abuse is so prevalent in society, that the events in Rotherham (and elsewhere) are only unusual in the way that the authorities attempted to cover them up ?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    It's interesting to see people refer to the racist paedophile rape gangs as "Rotherham", or "Rotherham and Rochdale". I haven't been counting, but i think that there have been around twenty towns that have had trials of racist paedophile gang rapists connected to them

    There's also a very troubling tendency to pretend that the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators being from one ethnic and religious group is totally normal, because 90% of CSE offences are committed by white men

    We had a couple in Newcastle. The last one several men jailed including two who had previously been accused and found not guilty in 2016. Suffice to say, at the time, the BBC gave them fawning press coverage and allowed their claims that the complainants were motivated by racism to go unchallenged.

    https://thecritic.co.uk/newsnight-and-the-rapist/
    When there's a false allegation, the BBC loves to discuss the issue:



    Channel 4 has a whole multi-part series on the "Fake Grooming Gang Scandal" later this month:

    https://www.channel4.com/press/news/channel-4-commissions-expectation-make-three-part-documentary-series-exploring

    Wonder if it will air.
    That will go down about as well as a cooking show by Mrs Sussex if they air it.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,093
    edited January 3
    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    An anon has dropped a £2,000 donation to that.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,153

    Another GE is not going to happen before 2029, but what we are witnessing is disunity and bitterness growing at a fearful rate with unknown consequences

    Social media is virtually out of control with Musk pouring petrol on the flames

    We can jump.up and down and shout to the heavens, but what we really need is good governance and I do not see where that is coming from

    Very difficult times ahead

    Social media needs to be regulated. It should be a public utility with fixed returns on capital. There should be no economic incentive to run toxic algorithms
    Ok how does that work as social media is global not nation specific?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I see that there has been the usual outrage about the appalling rape and abuse of girls.

    Understandably - given the horrific nature of what was done and described in the transcripts of the sentencing remarks. What was done was horrific.

    But was it that much more horrific than what you can find on internet porn sites easily enough? Indeed, how many of the men were carrying out in real life what they saw on porn sites? And how many of those men expressing outrage are equally outraged about the abuse of girls routinely uploaded to pornhub etc?

    Or in the fact that allegations of choking - common in porn - are an increasing factor in rape allegations - https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/choking-allegations-rape-cases-scotland-drc7p27df?

    Or is the outrage only about who is doing these dreadful things? And conveniently ignoring all the other types of men who have done horrific things to women, girls, children (of both sexes) in all sorts of places and institutions for decades and decades while people turned a blind eye and promoted those in charge rather than holding anyone accountable?


    Have you read some of the more hideous details from the rape gang sentencing? I’m not urging you to do so. They are profoundly disturbing. What’s incredible is that reporters in the courts say that even MORE disturbing details are still being repressed - to keep the public peace

    What on earth are they?

    As for your well-meant remarks on porn, actually, no, you could not and cannot - thank God - find anything this depraved online or anywhere

    If such porn exists - I hope and pray it doesn’t - it will stuff bought and sold on the dark web, or whatever
    I have.

    I have - in my professional capacity - seen and read about some extremely disturbing stuff online. I am afraid that I don't agree with your belief that you cannot find this stuff online. I think that the role of extreme porn in degrading male sexuality and the consequent harm to women and children needs to be faced up to and addressed. It's not just the cultural/ethnic origins of the perpetrators our society likes to turn a blind eye to.
    Your larger point, I think, is that sexual abuse is so prevalent in society, that the events in Rotherham (and elsewhere) are only unusual in the way that the authorities attempted to cover them up ?
    It goes deeper than that, it's also the why they covered it up. This is what's causing more anger than anything else. The callous attitude was bad enough, but to allow mass rapes and torture to go unchecked on the basis that because the perpetrators were Muslims they couldn't do anything or it might be seen as racist and cause community upset or cause "racists" to target Muslims. That is the real cause of anger and upset, the fact that the authorities valued the lives of Muslim rapists above innocent children. It's absolutely disgusting and more power to Musk if he forces the government into a full public inquiry.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,153

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
    Well, if Wales can get away with tourist taxes...
    They aren't tourist taxes in wales...merely a fee to be allowed to leave
  • glwglw Posts: 9,993
    .
    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    Yes. Amongst the best things you can do with a tv.
    I honestly think TTSS is the best drama ever made by the BBC, and Smiley's People is almost as good. A Perfect Spy, with Peter Egan and Ray McAnally, is also well worth watching.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    Are you in favour of a full public inquiry of this that opens up all the evidence, all of the ugliness and names the perpetrators, the councillors, the police and everyone involved with it?

    If it's a yes then who the fuck cares how we get there, if Elon Musk has to partner with the devil himself to get the government to call the inquiry then who really gives a flying fuck, justice for those children who were tortured and raped is what matters. It's clear that the government wants to deny them justice and backing them into a corner is going to be the only way to get the inquiry.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,605
    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Transparency isn’t a bad thing. The quicker we get to the bottom of this the better.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,207
    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    It's curious that internet-people weren't so bothered by equivalent other cases. Quite possibly it passed me by, but of all the previous child/sex abuse scandals it's odd, that for some reason, this one has got traction.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    WFA

    Whilst the Mail, Express and Telegraph desperately await a victim to Martyr on the real world

    Tourism bosses in Devon and Cornwall, Canary Islands, Malta and The Costas are raging at massive drop off in Bookings for January and February

    Millions of oldies can't have their State sponsored WFW Winter Fuel Week away.

    There are going to be many pensioners freezing this weekend with a report on Sky that some are choosing between heating and eating and the principle reason the 20 labour councillors defected this week was the change in WFA

    And in view of the appalling state of the economy it is not a surprise there is a drop in tourism
    Regarding the Canaries and the Costas, if the Spanish insist on treating British tourists like crap at passport control (as has been alleged) no surprise if they go somewhere else next time.
    The argument is nonsense anyway as the WFA is £200 per household or £300 for the over 80s, and frankly it is not going to prevent those who want to go abroad doing so, but also why go somewhere the locals are hostile to you ?
    In the case of the Canaries there are also the ‘Tourists fuck off’ brigade who are not averse to harrassing visitors to their Islands and in the case of Barcelona the ‘tourists fuck off, refugees welcome’ brigade who also happily harrass visitors to their city.

    If they don’t want us we can take our money where it is wanted.
    It's a classic "polluter pays" issue and can be settled quite quickly by a small tourist tax (which might already exist?) which is distributed to services for local residents.

    The negative externalities of mass tourism shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, particularly when the economic benefits accrue only to a lucky few. In Edinburgh it's certainly a net negative if you happen to rent a flat near the city centre, from high housing costs to the trashing of green spaces to noise pollution for weeks on end.

    It's a difficult issue. There is no doubt the festivals overall bring massive economic benefits and are huge asset to those living here (eg a very large proportion of Fringe tickets are bought by locals). Has the NC500 helped or hindered the economy of the NW, given most housing is given over to STLs rather than people working in the economy? Dunno.
    Tourist taxes are coming in 2025 in the Canaries and, TBH, that’s not the tourists fault whether they have them or not and they don’t deserve to be abused by politically motivated locals who blame them for high property prices.

    In other places they have them. We paid in Greece and Cape Verde and Amsterdam.
    Well, if Wales can get away with tourist taxes...
    They aren't tourist taxes in wales...merely a fee to be allowed to leave
    You can check out but you can never leave.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,385
    edited January 3
    .

    Wes Streeting says the government is willing to work with Elon Musk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/elon-musk-keir-starmer-grooming-wes-streeting-b2673339.html

    That is utterly dumb. If someone abuses his ownership of a major social media platform to push a stream of lies about people in your government in order to overthrow it, you might either ignore it or if possible clobber him with the powers of the state, as Brazil for example did. Saying you will work with him is both craven and stupid.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    ohnotnow said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    It's curious that internet-people weren't so bothered by equivalent other cases. Quite possibly it passed me by, but of all the previous child/sex abuse scandals it's odd, that for some reason, this one has got traction.
    Internet people were pretty bothered by the Catholic church abuse, I'm pretty sure. The big court cases in the US were 20 years ago, so there was less internet, but still.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    Just sad to see another user be taken in by Elon Musk.

    Has Musk given them a roof over their head ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I see that there has been the usual outrage about the appalling rape and abuse of girls.

    Understandably - given the horrific nature of what was done and described in the transcripts of the sentencing remarks. What was done was horrific.

    But was it that much more horrific than what you can find on internet porn sites easily enough? Indeed, how many of the men were carrying out in real life what they saw on porn sites? And how many of those men expressing outrage are equally outraged about the abuse of girls routinely uploaded to pornhub etc?

    Or in the fact that allegations of choking - common in porn - are an increasing factor in rape allegations - https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/choking-allegations-rape-cases-scotland-drc7p27df?

    Or is the outrage only about who is doing these dreadful things? And conveniently ignoring all the other types of men who have done horrific things to women, girls, children (of both sexes) in all sorts of places and institutions for decades and decades while people turned a blind eye and promoted those in charge rather than holding anyone accountable?


    Have you read some of the more hideous details from the rape gang sentencing? I’m not urging you to do so. They are profoundly disturbing. What’s incredible is that reporters in the courts say that even MORE disturbing details are still being repressed - to keep the public peace

    What on earth are they?

    As for your well-meant remarks on porn, actually, no, you could not and cannot - thank God - find anything this depraved online or anywhere

    If such porn exists - I hope and pray it doesn’t - it will stuff bought and sold on the dark web, or whatever
    I have.

    I have - in my professional capacity - seen and read about some extremely disturbing stuff online. I am afraid that I don't agree with your belief that you cannot find this stuff online. I think that the role of extreme porn in degrading male sexuality and the consequent harm to women and children needs to be faced up to and addressed. It's not just the cultural/ethnic origins of the perpetrators our society likes to turn a blind eye to.
    Your larger point, I think, is that sexual abuse is so prevalent in society, that the events in Rotherham (and elsewhere) are only unusual in the way that the authorities attempted to cover them up ?
    I fear the cover-ups will not just have been over these cases. I mean, we already know there were cover-ups in the BBC over abuse, in the film industry, and various churches. Bad people doing evil things and people who know not just failing to report or deal with the wrongdoers, but to actually allow the evil to continue (e.g. churches moving priests to other parishes).

    There will be little that is unusual in the Rotherham and Rochdale cases. Indeed, they may share many characteristics with other such cases. People knew what was going on.

    But on a hesitant, positive note: this is the way it would have been since forever. There was no golden age where there was no sexual, or indeed any form of, abuse. Cover-ups have always happened when connected people crossed whatever 'line' or morality society had at the time. But I think it is getting harder to cover things up in the modern world: people are just too connected; and more people are being brave enough to come forward.

    I am not being complacent; we have much further to go. It requires work by us all: men, not to do these acts, women (and men), to be brave enough to shout and scream when it does happen; the authorities, to deal with accusations in a fair manner to both accuser and accused. And if we think someone is suffering any sort of abuse, try to get them help, directly or indirectly.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,153
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I see that there has been the usual outrage about the appalling rape and abuse of girls.

    Understandably - given the horrific nature of what was done and described in the transcripts of the sentencing remarks. What was done was horrific.

    But was it that much more horrific than what you can find on internet porn sites easily enough? Indeed, how many of the men were carrying out in real life what they saw on porn sites? And how many of those men expressing outrage are equally outraged about the abuse of girls routinely uploaded to pornhub etc?

    Or in the fact that allegations of choking - common in porn - are an increasing factor in rape allegations - https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/choking-allegations-rape-cases-scotland-drc7p27df?

    Or is the outrage only about who is doing these dreadful things? And conveniently ignoring all the other types of men who have done horrific things to women, girls, children (of both sexes) in all sorts of places and institutions for decades and decades while people turned a blind eye and promoted those in charge rather than holding anyone accountable?


    Have you read some of the more hideous details from the rape gang sentencing? I’m not urging you to do so. They are profoundly disturbing. What’s incredible is that reporters in the courts say that even MORE disturbing details are still being repressed - to keep the public peace

    What on earth are they?

    As for your well-meant remarks on porn, actually, no, you could not and cannot - thank God - find anything this depraved online or anywhere

    If such porn exists - I hope and pray it doesn’t - it will stuff bought and sold on the dark web, or whatever
    I have.

    I have - in my professional capacity - seen and read about some extremely disturbing stuff online. I am afraid that I don't agree with your belief that you cannot find this stuff online. I think that the role of extreme porn in degrading male sexuality and the consequent harm to women and children needs to be faced up to and addressed. It's not just the cultural/ethnic origins of the perpetrators our society likes to turn a blind eye to.
    Your larger point, I think, is that sexual abuse is so prevalent in society, that the events in Rotherham (and elsewhere) are only unusual in the way that the authorities attempted to cover them up ?
    Authorities also cover up abuse my percieved high status figures....at best you could term it as failing to investigate....cf saville, CoE scandals etc
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    It's interesting to see people refer to the racist paedophile rape gangs as "Rotherham", or "Rotherham and Rochdale". I haven't been counting, but i think that there have been around twenty towns that have had trials of racist paedophile gang rapists connected to them

    There's also a very troubling tendency to pretend that the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators being from one ethnic and religious group is totally normal, because 90% of CSE offences are committed by white men

    It’s more like 50 UK towns, now, I believe. So many that some go unreported - it’s that bad. That’s why Sarah Champion MP (for Rotherham) said “it’s everywhere in the UK, if you look for it, you’ll find it”

    Then Jeremy Corbyn sacked her from the shadow cabinet for causing “community disharmony”
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,207
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    After the spy chat I decided to put Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on Netflix and remind myself of how good the best is. It's a shame they were never able to get Smiley's People filmed. Gary Oldman really is a brilliant spy. No one else has come close in recent times.

    I'm sure you must be aware of the BBC series?
    Recently released by BBC DVD on Blu Ray too.

    I watched the BBC series on a flight to Cape Verde. It’s sublime.
    I think the BBC TTSS is as good as it gets, but the BBC Smiley's People was a bit too arch and rambly. Legacy of Spies (Le Carre's last book with Smiley in it?) is my bath book (hardback, second-hand, can withstand bubbles and drops within reason) and it's really good. Like many other authors, Le Carre tried to tie together his strands in his last days. It usually doesn't work, but this time it did and LoS has the characters of The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and their children interact with the characters of TTSS via Peter Guillam, who contacts the now-elderly George Smiley at the end. It was post-Referendum and Le Carre gives Smiley a whacking big pro-Europe speech which, whilst plausible, does stick out.
    I will watch Smileys People on my holiday flights in March. I remember little of it although I did like A Perfect Spy. Not the same characters but the BBC version was very good.

    I can’t remember the last time I had a bath, seeing that comment .

    I didn’t realise Le Carre was still writing as late as that too.
    Yup. LoS was published in 2017: Le Carre was 86 and died three years later.

    Unbelievably, "A Perfect Spy" is on iPlayer! Enjoy! https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b008bjg1/a-perfect-spy-episode-1
    If I can recommend an old Radio dramatisation of Le Carre - 'The Russia House' with Tom Baker as the main performer is very good. Archive.org has it as one big file :

    https://archive.org/details/the-russia-house-tom-baker

    Somewhat related, the BBC Radio version of Green's "The Quiet American" starring Ian Holm is very enjoyable :

    https://archive.org/details/the-quiet-american
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    Are you in favour of a full public inquiry of this that opens up all the evidence, all of the ugliness and names the perpetrators, the councillors, the police and everyone involved with it?

    If it's a yes then who the fuck cares how we get there, if Elon Musk has to partner with the devil himself to get the government to call the inquiry then who really gives a flying fuck, justice for those children who were tortured and raped is what matters. It's clear that the government wants to deny them justice and backing them into a corner is going to be the only way to get the inquiry.
    Perhaps. But I would wan the inquiry to be fair to all parties, and not an Internet-driven witch-hunt.

    But you are utterly ignoring the point that Musk has been bashing the country you claim to love for months now.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,207
    carnforth said:

    ohnotnow said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    It's curious that internet-people weren't so bothered by equivalent other cases. Quite possibly it passed me by, but of all the previous child/sex abuse scandals it's odd, that for some reason, this one has got traction.
    Internet people were pretty bothered by the Catholic church abuse, I'm pretty sure. The big court cases in the US were 20 years ago, so there was less internet, but still.
    I think pre-social-media internet people were more 'regular people who happened to have the internet'. I remember pre-internet-existing-at-all people being pretty bothered about care home abusers. But this is an entirely different phenomenon.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Sick jokes, they are.
    What is “patriotic” about defending your country against accusation of grievous human rights failings, when those accusations are ENTIRELY TRUE

    If we heard of another country where 100,000-1,000,000 under age girls were raped, tortured, abused and sometimes murdered over decades by organised racist gangs and the whole thing was covered up by minor and major politicians and cops for reasons of self service, cowardice, criminality, desire to please minority groups, or get their votes - we’d be front of the queue demanding that this sick country be treated like a pariah til it sorted itself out

    Unfortunately, that country is the UK. That is the case. So we DESERVE sanctions. Which is what I said
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    Sandpit said:

    Mike Johnson wins the House Speaker election. Thomas Massie the only GOP defector.

    Now they can get on with the rest of their business.

    He's probably about as good as the GOP can find for house speaker.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    This stuff is now endless. As @williamglenn notes, the edifice is crumbling


    “Inside the ‘priority’ NHS services for migrants
    Asylum seekers receiving ‘preferential medical treatment’ despite increasing wait times for Britons”

    “In Stoke-on-Trent, an NHS team is on hand to “help failed asylum seekers, many of whom are homeless and destitute with no recourse to public funds”, access a GP and dentist. A survey in 2022 found 73 per cent of people in the city struggled to see an NHS dentist.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/03/priority-nhs-services-migrants/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    Are you in favour of a full public inquiry of this that opens up all the evidence, all of the ugliness and names the perpetrators, the councillors, the police and everyone involved with it?

    If it's a yes then who the fuck cares how we get there, if Elon Musk has to partner with the devil himself to get the government to call the inquiry then who really gives a flying fuck, justice for those children who were tortured and raped is what matters. It's clear that the government wants to deny them justice and backing them into a corner is going to be the only way to get the inquiry.
    Perhaps. But I would wan the inquiry to be fair to all parties, and not an Internet-driven witch-hunt.

    But you are utterly ignoring the point that Musk has been bashing the country you claim to love for months now.
    I don't want a "fair" inquiry. I want to burn every single person who covered it up, ruin their lives and make them suffer, from the functionaries "just following orders" all the way up to national politicians and police chiefs. This, to me, is going to become our nations original sin, the first since bloody Sunday and in the same way that the concentration camp guards just "following orders" were tried at Nuremberg, the functionary council worker who looked the other way and deleted reports or refused to provide information to parents also need to be put on trial.

    As for the other coverups, I completely agree with you that both the church and the BBC should face serious criminal charges for their actions and coverups of rape of young children. The reason why this is being treated differently is because the state was involved in the coverup. While the BBC and the church are both important and part of public life, they aren't the state. This abuse scandal was covered up by the apparatus of the government - local and national. That is why people are more upset about it than the other scandals. Think back to when we first heard about the alleged political paedophile ring operating out of Dolphin Square that was allegedly covered up by the state, the amount of anger surrounding that scandal was also absolutely huge, more than this I think.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707
    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Court Transcripts should be free and available on demand. I'm not surprised that they are not, but they really should be.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    Littler 3-0 up,so far and MVG playing poorly. Not even at the races.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Court Transcripts should be free and available on demand. I'm not surprised that they are not, but they really should be.
    Yes, quite, I’m mystified we have to PAY for this?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,207
    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Court Transcripts should be free and available on demand. I'm not surprised that they are not, but they really should be.
    The cost of scanning the Velum Manuscripts by someone who has to dress up in ermine and a white wig though - you've got to factor in the very basic running costs of the judicial system.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    One way traffic at the darts so far, the young boy doing well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    Are you in favour of a full public inquiry of this that opens up all the evidence, all of the ugliness and names the perpetrators, the councillors, the police and everyone involved with it?

    If it's a yes then who the fuck cares how we get there, if Elon Musk has to partner with the devil himself to get the government to call the inquiry then who really gives a flying fuck, justice for those children who were tortured and raped is what matters. It's clear that the government wants to deny them justice and backing them into a corner is going to be the only way to get the inquiry.
    Perhaps. But I would wan the inquiry to be fair to all parties, and not an Internet-driven witch-hunt.

    But you are utterly ignoring the point that Musk has been bashing the country you claim to love for months now.
    I don't want a "fair" inquiry. I want to burn every single person who covered it up, ruin their lives and make them suffer, from the functionaries "just following orders" all the way up to national politicians and police chiefs. This, to me, is going to become our nations original sin, the first since bloody Sunday and in the same way that the concentration camp guards just "following orders" were tried at Nuremberg, the functionary council worker who looked the other way and deleted reports or refused to provide information to parents also need to be put on trial.

    As for the other coverups, I completely agree with you that both the church and the BBC should face serious criminal charges for their actions and coverups of rape of young children. The reason why this is being treated differently is because the state was involved in the coverup. While the BBC and the church are both important and part of public life, they aren't the state. This abuse scandal was covered up by the apparatus of the government - local and national. That is why people are more upset about it than the other scandals. Think back to when we first heard about the alleged political paedophile ring operating out of Dolphin Square that was allegedly covered up by the state, the amount of anger surrounding that scandal was also absolutely huge, more than this I think.
    The scale and duration of this scandal is also what marks it out. The earliest cases date from the late 1960s. Between 100,000-1m kids abused raped and sometimes killed. The only comparison with that is Catholic child abuse? Which has indeed been a global scandal and from which the church has never truly recovered - eg in Ireland
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    Are you in favour of a full public inquiry of this that opens up all the evidence, all of the ugliness and names the perpetrators, the councillors, the police and everyone involved with it?

    If it's a yes then who the fuck cares how we get there, if Elon Musk has to partner with the devil himself to get the government to call the inquiry then who really gives a flying fuck, justice for those children who were tortured and raped is what matters. It's clear that the government wants to deny them justice and backing them into a corner is going to be the only way to get the inquiry.
    Perhaps. But I would wan the inquiry to be fair to all parties, and not an Internet-driven witch-hunt.

    But you are utterly ignoring the point that Musk has been bashing the country you claim to love for months now.
    I don't want a "fair" inquiry. I want to burn every single person who covered it up, ruin their lives and make them suffer, from the functionaries "just following orders" all the way up to national politicians and police chiefs. This, to me, is going to become our nations original sin, the first since bloody Sunday and in the same way that the concentration camp guards just "following orders" were tried at Nuremberg, the functionary council worker who looked the other way and deleted reports or refused to provide information to parents also need to be put on trial.

    As for the other coverups, I completely agree with you that both the church and the BBC should face serious criminal charges for their actions and coverups of rape of young children. The reason why this is being treated differently is because the state was involved in the coverup. While the BBC and the church are both important and part of public life, they aren't the state. This abuse scandal was covered up by the apparatus of the government - local and national. That is why people are more upset about it than the other scandals. Think back to when we first heard about the alleged political paedophile ring operating out of Dolphin Square that was allegedly covered up by the state, the amount of anger surrounding that scandal was also absolutely huge, more than this I think.
    The scale and duration of this scandal is also what marks it out. The earliest cases date from the late 1960s. Between 100,000-1m kids abused raped and sometimes killed. The only comparison with that is Catholic child abuse? Which has indeed been a global scandal and from which the church has never truly recovered - eg in Ireland
    In the US I think it's the sports coach sexual abuse scandals that have been terminal as well as the church sex abuse scandals.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Court Transcripts should be free and available on demand. I'm not surprised that they are not, but they really should be.
    Yes, quite, I’m mystified we have to PAY for this?
    Well, everything costs money, so I think a small charge should be made (as there is when I have asked for copies of a document from archives in the past). But after it has been transcribed once, it should be freely available.

    Also, you would need to ensure the transcription is accurate; as any errors could prove to be very costly in legal terms.

    But I fear the main reason is that it creates too much bother for them, immediately and potentially in the future.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,770
    MaxPB said:

    Wes Streeting says the government is willing to work with Elon Musk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/elon-musk-keir-starmer-grooming-wes-streeting-b2673339.html

    Someone has obviously realised that Musk won't get bored and the longer he broadcasts this the worse it gets for Labour (and specifically Starmer who was DPP at the time). I hope EM keeps pushing for a full public inquiry and forced Labour into it, this needs to be brought to light and, I think, the currently hidden from public details also need to be opened up to scrutiny. The longer this festers the worse I think public trust in politicians will get. As I said around the time of the riots, the reason people don't believe the police or authorities is because of the rape gangs and the cover ups to protect the Muslim perpetrator, so when the police and authorities were quick to rule out terrorism to seemingly protect an immigrant terrorist why should anyone believe it?
    Otoh...

    UK Right Warns Trump Allies That Musk’s Posts Have Gone Too Far
    Senior politicians privately urge the US president-elect’s team not to endorse Tommy Robinson, after Musk called for him to be released from prison.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-03/uk-right-warns-trump-allies-that-musk-s-posts-have-gone-too-far (£££)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Court Transcripts should be free and available on demand. I'm not surprised that they are not, but they really should be.
    Yes, quite, I’m mystified we have to PAY for this?
    Surely something we can throw AI at now?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,362
    Starmer needs to own this issue and commission a public inquiry before he is forced to. Partly because Farage could make hay every week, but mostly because it’s the right thing to do.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,271

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    You can't decide your position on something based on saying the opposite to Tommy Robinson. Even bad people and idiots are right sometimes. Hell, there are one or two things I agree with Jeremy Corbyn about.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Musk is free to suggest a dissolution and the government is free to laugh in his face.

    It’s gonna be hilarious if Musk and Ackmann convince Trump to slap sanctions on us for human rights failings re children and gangs

    Very very dark, but not with humour
    You really need to keep a lid on that "patriotism" of yours.
    Yeah, it's amazing how so many people who screech about how much they love this country are happy to see Musk trash our reputation and interfere with our democracy.

    Pathetic paper patriots.
    Maybe we want to see the people who perpetrated the cover up of Muslim rape gangs get justice and that's more important than nationalism or patriotism? I love this country and yet this crime that was perpetrated and covered up shames the nation, the wilful blindness, the threats by the police against parents, the threats by councillors against whistle blowers it all needs to be aired in public for the world to see or we won't ever get past it. The longer it stays in the dark and festers the more trust in public life erodes and it's not exactly brilliant at the moment.

    It's not enough that the rapists are seemingly finally being banged up, those who covered for them need to be banged up too and given exemplary sentences. They allowed these gangs to continue operating, they kept parents away from their children and left them to be tortured and raped on a daily basis. A rapist is going to rape and they should be put in prison to protect the public. A politician who turns a blind eye to it is a danger to society at large because they're aiding and abetting criminality at a large scale.
    He's doing much more than that. He's attacking our elected government and trashing our country's reputation, and this is just his *latest* tool.

    I'd also point out that he is, despite being an immigrant himself, rabidly anti-immigrant. Or the 'wrong' sort of immigrant. You may want to consider when the anti-immigration feelings he is broadcasting will start affecting *your* community, and not just Muslims.

    Because after they come for my wife (who is an immigrant from a Muslim country), they may start coming after other immigrants. That's the way racists work.
    Is the government so weak it can't stand a bit of scrutiny? The Tory government endured much worse for 14 years.

    I don't think you understand just how sickening the rape gangs were and the kind of attitude that still pervades among authorities that covered for them. The reason I want a full public inquiry that airs all of the dirty laundry is so that those far right conspiracy theorists are no longer able to use it as a political tool for their ends. If we have the inquiry, start prosecuting the people responsible for the coverups, put measures in place to never allow it to happen again, pay millions in compensation to the victims, let the whistle blowers go public and tell their stories, give the victims their say unimpeded and unadulterated. Don't let anyone off the hook and chase it as high as it goes, even if it implicates multiple home/justice secretaries who also turned a blind eye from the Labour and Tory governments.

    This can never be allowed to happen again and frankly your concern over "but the immigrants might feel unsafe if it's made public" is exactly what has caused this all in the first place.
    Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. You seem very keen to blame everyone who disagrees with you for being in league with those who 'caused' this.

    To be clear: I am not. And I have talked a hell of a lot more about all forms of abuse on here than you ever have.

    As for government scrutiny: I'm all for it. But supporting a racist like Tommy Robinson is *not* scrutinising the government. It is supporting a racist.
    Are you in favour of a full public inquiry of this that opens up all the evidence, all of the ugliness and names the perpetrators, the councillors, the police and everyone involved with it?

    If it's a yes then who the fuck cares how we get there, if Elon Musk has to partner with the devil himself to get the government to call the inquiry then who really gives a flying fuck, justice for those children who were tortured and raped is what matters. It's clear that the government wants to deny them justice and backing them into a corner is going to be the only way to get the inquiry.
    Perhaps. But I would wan the inquiry to be fair to all parties, and not an Internet-driven witch-hunt.

    But you are utterly ignoring the point that Musk has been bashing the country you claim to love for months now.
    I don't want a "fair" inquiry. I want to burn every single person who covered it up, ruin their lives and make them suffer, from the functionaries "just following orders" all the way up to national politicians and police chiefs. This, to me, is going to become our nations original sin, the first since bloody Sunday and in the same way that the concentration camp guards just "following orders" were tried at Nuremberg, the functionary council worker who looked the other way and deleted reports or refused to provide information to parents also need to be put on trial.

    As for the other coverups, I completely agree with you that both the church and the BBC should face serious criminal charges for their actions and coverups of rape of young children. The reason why this is being treated differently is because the state was involved in the coverup. While the BBC and the church are both important and part of public life, they aren't the state. This abuse scandal was covered up by the apparatus of the government - local and national. That is why people are more upset about it than the other scandals. Think back to when we first heard about the alleged political paedophile ring operating out of Dolphin Square that was allegedly covered up by the state, the amount of anger surrounding that scandal was also absolutely huge, more than this I think.
    The state was involved in those cover-ups as well. In the case of some abuse by priests, the police were informed. IIRC, in one case (Ireland, I think), the policeman *told* the priest about the accusation.

    People knew.

    As for you not wanting a 'fair' inquiry: fuck off. An innocent person being dragged into this, and potentially jailed, would just compound the iniquity.

    I agree that the people who did wrong should be punished. But we need to ensure that the people who end up being punished did wrong - and that is why the inquiry should be fair.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,143
    edited January 3
    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    £9000 raised in three hours to pay for court transcripts:

    https://www.gofundme.com/f/release-the-transcripts

    Maybe this isn't going away.

    Court Transcripts should be free and available on demand. I'm not surprised that they are not, but they really should be.
    The court transcripts would be extensively redacted to prevent jigsaw identification of the witnesses and victims. That redaction would just add more fuel to the flames.

    Another grey area in all this is that many of the people who stood by and did nothing (or the absolute minimum) are also likely the key witnesses that secured convictions. This kind of challenge to the court system could backfire if the meek are dissuaded from ever providing testimony lest they end up plastered all over twitter.

    I think MaxPB challenged people to consider what they would do if they found themselves in the same situation - I'd like to think I would have been the brave whistleblower* who sacrificed everything to save these kids. But in reality, I'd have likely behaved like most people do: made a few noises, reported it to my superior, but out of fear for my career, and possibly my physical wellbeing, kept it at that. It's probably only in court where I would feel I had the necessary protections to finally make a difference.

    * I have previously complained about a minor injustice that affected only a few people in a corporate setting. Miserable experience, do not recommend, but did make a small difference to those who were harmed.
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