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The cunning and awesomeness of Robert Jenrick – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,077
edited 7:37AM in General
The cunning and awesomeness of Robert Jenrick – politicalbetting.com

How Jenrick’s team tricked five Cleverly supporters to reach Tory leadership last two – @DavidPBMaddox https://t.co/6LdCHd7MEG

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,581
    FPT Dr. Foxy, I don't think Russia would invade the Baltic nations until they're done in Ukraine.

    On-topic: it's demented that five MPs apparently buggered Cleverly's chances.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016
    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,123
    2nd.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 7:47AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year yes, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either. And given all the taxes, fees, tips, etc etc etc, $85k a year household income in the US really doesn't go far.

    Plus, professional / corporate jobs in the US pay a lot more. As we saw with dock workers, they are making money far in advance of this definition of "middle class".
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,272

    FPT Dr. Foxy, I don't think Russia would invade the Baltic nations until they're done in Ukraine.

    On-topic: it's demented that five MPs apparently buggered Cleverly's chances.

    One distinct possibility is that after calling it a day in Ukraine with a few gains and oceans of blood lost, they will want to cheer themselves up with something a bit easier, rather than just rebuilding forces for another go at Ukraine. Kind of retail therapy.

    To me that says another nibble at Georgia, or having a go at Moldova. But the Baltics despite being NATO must be tempting, so good on the Poles for ensuring they’re not seen as easy takings.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,272
    edited 7:45AM

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class.
    There’s a large section of the population though who continue to insist they’re working class despite their income because it gives them some sort of feeling of authenticity.

    They think that liking football and having a regional accent is sufficient. Or having a father who made tools.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,581
    Mr. S, aye, Moldova or Georgia again are eminently possible.

    If China go for Taiwan, Putin might see that as a unique opportunity to go for the Baltics while most US (and many other) resources are focused there.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,997
    Jenrick's cunning stunts only made possible by the stupidity of his fellow Tory MPs.

    The Tories probably didn't lose enough MPs in July.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 7:50AM
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class.
    There’s a large section of the population though who continue to insist they’re working class despite their income because it gives them some sort of feeling of authenticity.

    They think that liking football and having a regional accent is sufficient. Or having a father who made tools.
    Oh that's absolutely true, compared to the US, where its the opposite, people want to show how well they are doing and that if they do go to an event, they want to be seen using valet parking, they aren't with the plebs in the cheap seats, they paid for access to the upscale bar...and they will tell everybody that is what they did.

    UK people to want to claim no I am definitely not rich, upper middle class, I might earn £100k, but you know times are tough, still struggling to get by....I know I was in a box at Taylor Swift gig, but I had to go, it was a gift, I wouldn't never choose that myself.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,688
    Fpt
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    That's a far more interesting, and revealing, list than the other one. I'm not sure which Lady Glenconner we mean, but the current one is a 1930s girl. And the 'posh' house (Holkham Hall) is pastiche Palladio.

    To me it reads very "Islington dinner party", sort of from Inner Londoners who never get beyond the M25, and are significantly out of touch. Stereotypically, they'd get Abel & Cole (Okay, Ya?) to "be organic" rather than grow their own, or use a farm shop which might involve taking mud off a carrot.

    (My comments are probably also revealing :smile: ).

    Cycling is interesting to me; "middle class" is one of the baseless distracting tropes used by anti-LTN types, who don't want others to have what they have got. The changing demographics (from TFL) say different, but around here transport cycling has always been people who do it for the cost or convenience. There is a separate layer who take their cycle 5-10 miles in their car to cycle it somewhere, like walking the dog or the disabled relative.

    Wagamama iirc started as a mass-catering echoing-hall stripped down food chain in London in the 1990s for "quick eat and go".

    To Aldi for wine sounds like people who have only just discovered it in say the last 10 years. My relations in London used to always return there with a boot full of Aldi food, as it saved 1/4 or 1/3 - that's back to the late 1990s.
    Aldi wine is very different from Aldi food - the wine buyer has been pulling tricks for over a decade - this year should have another crop Canadian ice wine that will sell out in minutes when it appears at 1/3 the usual price
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,093
    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,835
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class.
    There’s a large section of the population though who continue to insist they’re working class despite their income because it gives them some sort of feeling of authenticity.

    They think that liking football and having a regional accent is sufficient. Or having a father who made tools.
    I feel personally attacked by that comment.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 7:56AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
    That is true you can have class via your family. But "white collar jobs" in the UK now entail things like call centres, paper pushing in offices etc, that are poorly paid and basically the factories of the 21st Century. So that is a little bit more complicated.

    My point is in the US, people in white collar corporate jobs in America aren't describing themselves as middle class, middle class is basically what we used to call working class here. People in steady unfashionable jobs, getting by, but not much more as what politicians in the US are talking about when they bang on about the middle classes, not people complaining about VAT on private school fees or that they are now getting dragged in higher tax bands (as the traditional middle classes are here).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016
    edited 7:54AM
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class.
    There’s a large section of the population though who continue to insist they’re working class despite their income because it gives them some sort of feeling of authenticity.

    They think that liking football and having a regional accent is sufficient. Or having a father who made tools.
    Yes, my oldest friend is a University professor in a Russell group University, and both parents were teachers, but as one grandparent was a coal miner so self describes as working class. She is achingly ahead of social trends too, and always great company.

    It's as absurd as Kemi believing that a sixth form job at McDonalds makes her working class.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760
    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,675
    edited 7:55AM
    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    The Rise and Rise of Robert Jenrick*, starring Peter Cook!

    * Michael Rimmer
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
    That is true you can have class via your family. But "white collar jobs" in the UK now entail things like call centres, paper pushing in offices etc, that are poorly paid and basically the factories of the 21st Century.

    My point is in the US, people in white collar corporate jobs in America aren't describing themselves as middle class, middle class is basically what we used to call working class here. People in steady unfashionable jobs, getting by, but not much more.
    I think we are simply using language differently. Call centres and office jobs are C2 and therefore middle class occupations.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,741
    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    The thing about being a deliberate shit is that you have to do it sparingly and secretly; once people clock you as a scheming shit they stop trusting you. And Jenrick is reaching that point sooner than most.

    Doesn't change the key observation being that there at least five Conservative MPs who are so dim that they shouldn't be allowed unsupervised access to sharp objects.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,556
    As luck would have it, thirteen prelates had selected the same outsider, with the result that they all but elected Arborense, the most worthless nonentity present.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 8:01AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
    That is true you can have class via your family. But "white collar jobs" in the UK now entail things like call centres, paper pushing in offices etc, that are poorly paid and basically the factories of the 21st Century.

    My point is in the US, people in white collar corporate jobs in America aren't describing themselves as middle class, middle class is basically what we used to call working class here. People in steady unfashionable jobs, getting by, but not much more.
    I think we are simply using language differently. Call centres and office jobs are C2 and therefore middle class occupations.
    But what I am saying is now I think that isn't a great definition unless we are thinking middle class in the way the US do.

    I don't think of somebody in a call centre on £15/hr, probably no degree or a very poor one, having to rent with 3 other people to make ends meet as "middle class" in the way as any office job in the 60s had real status attached to it. The people doing call centre jobs and the low end paper pushing, would have 50-60 years ago being pushing around stuff in factories or down a mine or making a ship.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,675
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class.
    There’s a large section of the population though who continue to insist they’re working class despite their income because it gives them some sort of feeling of authenticity.

    They think that liking football and having a regional accent is sufficient. Or having a father who made tools.
    Yes, my oldest friend is a University professor in a Russell group University, and both parents were teachers, but as one grandparent was a coal miner so self describes as working class. She is achingly ahead of social trends too, and always great company.

    It's as absurd as Kemi believing that a sixth form job at McDonalds makes her working class.

    If she'd got stopped by the police on suspicion of possession or soliciting on her way home from the twin arches she might have a story to tell. Granted not the story she wants to tell, but a relevant story for our times to tell.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,723
    Nigelb said:

    ..Jenrick’s core supporters including campaign manager Danny Kruger, Common Sense group chair Sir John Hayes, One Nation cheerleader John Lamont, Brexiteer Europe Research Group chair Mark Francois, and former minister Neil O’Brien...

    What an absolute shower of shite.

    Anyone fooled by this bunch deserves all that's coming to them.

    More's the point, they would be the key figures of a Jenrick Shadow Cabinet and a future Jenrick led Government.

    Yeah...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,980
    Just re-posting from the previous thread which ended just as I finished !

    Not sure how many followed the drama over the TIPP/American Greatness poll which showed Harris leading in Pennsylvania by 4 points with registered voters which then turned into a 1 point Trump lead with likely voters .

    Essentially the pollster dropped Philadelphia RV from 124 to 12 likely voters .

    This was not some tabulation error . They have since stated that their screener did this . Even though a large proportion of those voters said they were likely to vote the other questions over rode that . They have also admitted that this screener will be used in all their future polling !

    They seem to be falling into the same trap that effected Gallup several years ago , an over harsh screener is attempting to crack a nut with a sledge hammer .

    A word about the female v male vote . So far we’ve seen just under 55% of the early vote combined being female in states which report that . We should also bear in mind assumptions in the polling around that , national gender gaps in polling are quite different to those assumed at state level.

    The percentage of the female vote varies between states . This is especially important in the swing states. More about that later for those who like my US election musings ....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
    That is true you can have class via your family. But "white collar jobs" in the UK now entail things like call centres, paper pushing in offices etc, that are poorly paid and basically the factories of the 21st Century.

    My point is in the US, people in white collar corporate jobs in America aren't describing themselves as middle class, middle class is basically what we used to call working class here. People in steady unfashionable jobs, getting by, but not much more.
    I think we are simply using language differently. Call centres and office jobs are C2 and therefore middle class occupations.
    But what I am saying is now I think that isn't a great definition now. I don't think somebody in a call centre on £15/hr, probably no degrees or a very poor one, having to rent with 3 other people to make ends meet as "middle class" in the way as any office job in the 60s had real status attached to it. The people doing call centre jobs and the low end paper pushing, would have 50-60 years ago being pushing around stuff in factories or down a mine or making a ship.
    It's the definition that the government uses.

    Sure, middle class jobs do not guarantee prospects in the way they did 50 years ago, but neither do most working class jobs. That's a separate issue though.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760
    Speaking of companies (DP) and politicians (Mickey Mouse Hater) that nobody should trust, I see Boeing's still going well:

    Boeing to axe 17,000 jobs amid strike and quality concerns
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cevypzd9gklo
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,997

    Jenrick's cunning stunts only made possible by the stupidity of his fellow Tory MPs.

    The Tories probably didn't lose enough MPs in July.

    It seems the members are facing a choice between one candidate whom many of the MPs hate and the other candidate whom many of the MPs consider betrayed them.

    Looks like it will be a really happy ship either way.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,306
    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator...
    Pure as the driven sewage.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,278
    Don't most candidates get to the final two with two thirds of MPsnot voting for them?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016
    Cookie said:

    Don't most candidates get to the final two with two thirds of MPsnot voting for them?

    Yes, that's why (apart from Cameron) they don't last as leader.

    That and the low threshold for a 1922 Committee challenge.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,089
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class.
    There’s a large section of the population though who continue to insist they’re working class despite their income because it gives them some sort of feeling of authenticity.

    They think that liking football and having a regional accent is sufficient. Or having a father who made tools.
    Reminds me of the sensation surrounding The Affluent Worker (Goldthorpe and Lockwood) in the 1960s when car workers in Dunstable were discovered drinking wine from a glass instead of straight from the bottle.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,835
    edited 8:11AM
    Cookie said:

    Don't most candidates get to the final two with two thirds of MPsnot voting for them?

    Boris Johnson, Theresa May, and David Cameron didn't, Rishi Sunak, also after a fashion.

    Truss and IDS met your metric.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,741
    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,123

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year yes, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either. And given all the taxes, fees, tips, etc etc etc, $85k a year household income in the US really doesn't go far.

    Plus, professional / corporate jobs in the US pay a lot more. As we saw with dock workers, they are making money far in advance of this definition of "middle class".
    To me that alludes to a couple of interesting points:

    1 - Food price differences (as I see it from reporting) between the USA and Europe, leaving aside good and bad food, availability of fresh produce etc.

    2 - Biden's then Harris' going for expensive food by going at corporates, dismissed by Trump. I see that as targeting what amount to local monopolies, half created because the US is more spaced out, and to a significant created to exclude 'neighbourhood'.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 8:12AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
    That is true you can have class via your family. But "white collar jobs" in the UK now entail things like call centres, paper pushing in offices etc, that are poorly paid and basically the factories of the 21st Century.

    My point is in the US, people in white collar corporate jobs in America aren't describing themselves as middle class, middle class is basically what we used to call working class here. People in steady unfashionable jobs, getting by, but not much more.
    I think we are simply using language differently. Call centres and office jobs are C2 and therefore middle class occupations.
    But what I am saying is now I think that isn't a great definition now. I don't think somebody in a call centre on £15/hr, probably no degrees or a very poor one, having to rent with 3 other people to make ends meet as "middle class" in the way as any office job in the 60s had real status attached to it. The people doing call centre jobs and the low end paper pushing, would have 50-60 years ago being pushing around stuff in factories or down a mine or making a ship.
    It's the definition that the government uses.

    Sure, middle class jobs do not guarantee prospects in the way they did 50 years ago, but neither do most working class jobs. That's a separate issue though.

    I would argue again that are a lot of "working class" jobs offer much higher chance of good prospects...if you get into a trade early, get all your qualifications and you don't f##k it up, I don't think its that hard to progress to some really decent money now, particularly if you are willing to travel where the work is (be it in the UK or abroad).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,835
    Ian Hislop tears Andrea Jenkyns a new a-hole. #HIGNFY

    https://x.com/RichardScribbl1/status/1844841482076745867
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,997

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either.
    Class in Britain is very much more than income, but it is perfectly possible to be in a middle class white collar job with an income of £20-30k.

    To get sartorial again, being in a white collar job is to be middle class.
    That is true you can have class via your family. But "white collar jobs" in the UK now entail things like call centres, paper pushing in offices etc, that are poorly paid and basically the factories of the 21st Century.

    My point is in the US, people in white collar corporate jobs in America aren't describing themselves as middle class, middle class is basically what we used to call working class here. People in steady unfashionable jobs, getting by, but not much more.
    I think we are simply using language differently. Call centres and office jobs are C2 and therefore middle class occupations.
    But what I am saying is now I think that isn't a great definition unless we are thinking middle class in the way the US do.

    I don't think of somebody in a call centre on £15/hr, probably no degree or a very poor one, having to rent with 3 other people to make ends meet as "middle class" in the way as any office job in the 60s had real status attached to it. The people doing call centre jobs and the low end paper pushing, would have 50-60 years ago being pushing around stuff in factories or down a mine or making a ship.
    Seems to imply that most people designated "working class" these days are unemployed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,306
    More on that TIPP poll.
    It's probably not unfair to say that questionable voter filters along these lines make a pretty large proportion of US polls highly unreliable.

    All adds to the uncertainty.

    https://x.com/baseballot/status/1844825151214412037
    The poll got our attention because, while its registered-voter version included 124 RVs from Philadelphia, 116 of whom said they were “very” or “somewhat” likely to vote, the LV version had only 12 LVs from there.

    ...We thought this might be an error, so we reached out to TIPP & American Greatness. The president of TIPP responded and said it wasn’t an error: This poll’s LV model assigns a vote probability to each respondent based on their demographics & vote history, and…

    ...a disproportionate # of their Philly respondents had factors that made them unlikely to vote: they were young, not a college graduate, and/or nonwhite. So a ton of them happened to fall beneath the threshold to count as a likely voter.

    ..(He also said that respondents’ answer to the “how likely are you to vote” question was a factor in this poll’s LV model as well, but only a small one. He also confirmed that TIPP alone, and not American Greatness, determined the LV model.)

    ...Now, this is a different LV model than some past TIPP polls have used. For example, their September polls of AZ and NC counted everyone as a likely voter if they reported that they were “very” or “somewhat” likely to vote. (But, notably, more recent GA and NV polls did not.)

    ...When I asked about this, he said that TIPP actually has 5 different LV models. While he would not tell me how they decide which LV model to use on which poll, he did say that they have decided to use the PA model on all polls going forward...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 8:19AM
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    One curiosity about British class consciousness is the obsession with not wanting to appear middle class. In America it's the opposite, with politicians there keen to stress their middle class values.

    As the son of a salesman and secretary, I am undeniably of middle class origin, and have never had pretension to anything else. Maybe it's my time in Australasia and America that makes a difference, but I have no British middle class cringe.

    Incidentally, apart from Wagamama I don't really fit your list.
    But "middle class" in America doesn't mean exactly the same thing as here. There is middle class is basically referred to those in steady job but not particularly well off, its a bit like the I know how it feels my mum was on tax credits type thing we see here. Its a way of saying I am not part of the underclass, but I am not rich by any means.

    Where as here, middle class refers to those from professional families who have had a very comfortable upbringing.
    I don't think that at all. What are the 40% of the population in SE groups B and C1 if not middle class?
    The middle class may include households making as little as $35,000 or as much as $139,000 in household-of-three equivalents, and include between 23 and 48 percent of households:

    A broader and commonly used definition of the middle class includes the middle three quintiles, encompassing 60 percent of all households. In this case, middle-class incomes range from $30,000 to $130,000. Others prefer to use two quintiles: Reeves and Busette identify a “lower-income” middle class as the second and third income quintiles, or those with incomes between $30,000 and $85,000. Perotti goes in the opposite direction, choosing the third and fourth quintiles.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/defining-the-middle-class-cash-credentials-or-culture/

    Nobody in the UK who has a household income as little as £20-30k is being defined as middle class. A combined income of £100k year yes, but they are saying that is the top end £65k ($85k) a year combined between two people in the UK isn't exactly smashing it either. And given all the taxes, fees, tips, etc etc etc, $85k a year household income in the US really doesn't go far.

    Plus, professional / corporate jobs in the US pay a lot more. As we saw with dock workers, they are making money far in advance of this definition of "middle class".
    To me that alludes to a couple of interesting points:

    1 - Food price differences (as I see it from reporting) between the USA and Europe, leaving aside good and bad food, availability of fresh produce etc.

    2 - Biden's then Harris' going for expensive food by going at corporates, dismissed by Trump. I see that as targeting what amount to local monopolies, half created because the US is more spaced out, and to a significant created to exclude 'neighbourhood'.
    I think food pricing in the US is a more recent issue. 20-30 years ago the problem was food was probably too cheap, where most people didn't even eat at home for many of their meals. All those subsidising lead to gluts of food which lead to things like fructose corn syrup.

    Now its gone the opposite, even fast food is expensive, plus the out of control tips. There is a problem with monopoly providers all the way through the supply chain, but also the inflation led to push on minimum wage rapidly upwards which broke the dam on lots of companies business models ability to keep things 99c, $1.49, etc (plus inflation is great for companies to pump prices as in general people can't work out if they are suffering an 8.4% increase of a 9.4% increase).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    It's a remarkably rapid turnover.

    Before 1997 since 1923 when the position was created the following Conservative leaders served less than five years:

    Bonar Law (died)
    Chamberlain (died)
    Anthony Eden (would have died, although to be fair he would have been out anyway)
    Home (inept)

    Since 1997, just one leader has lasted longer than five years:

    Cameron.

    And one lasted less than two months (lettuce not go there).

    Even if we go before 1923, the only leader to serve less than five years was Austen Chamberlain, but we could then conceivably take Bonar Law off the list of under five years of service as well. Since 1832 there had been Peel (14 years) Derby (22 years) Disraeli (13 years) Salisbury (if we discount the duumvirate with Northcote, 21 years) Balfour (9 years) and Bonar Law (ten years).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,123
    Thanks for the header, @TSE .

    (I note that Jenrick is a lawyer.)

    Generic Bob seems to be building up his stock of enemies quite early on. How will this affect the possibility of Cleverly being offered, and accepting, a Shadow Cabinet position?

    Aside from that, if an election can be swung by a conversation or three, it highlights how marginal the Conservatives currently are, and has a feel of the 1999 film "Election" about it in the sabotaging of opponents etc - apart from, I hope, tampering with the count.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_(1999_film)

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,741

    Cookie said:

    Don't most candidates get to the final two with two thirds of MPsnot voting for them?

    Boris Johnson, Theresa May, and David Cameron didn't, Rishi Sunak, also after a fashion.

    Truss and IDS met your metric.
    In some ways, that's rational. If the MPs conclude that there's one outstanding candidate, they can send a pretty strong hint to the membership.

    The reason that IDS, Truss and Jenrenoch got/will get the gig was that the alternatives didn't get much support either.

    That, and Conservative MPs seeming to think that House of Cards was history, not fiction.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,181

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    Until, at the critical moment, he wasn't - the moment of his resignation and what it implied about his previous lack of preparation. Which undid and more all of the competent stuff earlier
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,306

    Ian Hislop tears Andrea Jenkyns a new a-hole. #HIGNFY

    https://x.com/RichardScribbl1/status/1844841482076745867

    Doesn't that just mean she'll talk twice as much shit as before ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,835
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    It's a remarkably rapid turnover.

    Before 1997 since 1923 when the position was created the following Conservative leaders served less than five years:

    Bonar Law (died)
    Chamberlain (died)
    Anthony Eden (would have died, although to be fair he would have been out anyway)
    Home (inept)

    Since 1997, just one leader has lasted longer than five years:

    Cameron.

    And one lasted less than two months (lettuce not go there).

    Even if we go before 1923, the only leader to serve less than five years was Austen Chamberlain, but we could then conceivably take Bonar Law off the list of under five years of service as well. Since 1832 there had been Peel (14 years) Derby (22 years) Disraeli (13 years) Salisbury (if we discount the duumvirate with Northcote, 21 years) Balfour (9 years) and Bonar Law (ten years).
    I am confused by your Eden comment, surely that comment applies to Chamerlain.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760
    edited 8:27AM

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    It's a remarkably rapid turnover.

    Before 1997 since 1923 when the position was created the following Conservative leaders served less than five years:

    Bonar Law (died)
    Chamberlain (died)
    Anthony Eden (would have died, although to be fair he would have been out anyway)
    Home (inept)

    Since 1997, just one leader has lasted longer than five years:

    Cameron.

    And one lasted less than two months (lettuce not go there).

    Even if we go before 1923, the only leader to serve less than five years was Austen Chamberlain, but we could then conceivably take Bonar Law off the list of under five years of service as well. Since 1832 there had been Peel (14 years) Derby (22 years) Disraeli (13 years) Salisbury (if we discount the duumvirate with Northcote, 21 years) Balfour (9 years) and Bonar Law (ten years).
    I am confused by your Eden comment, surely that comment applies to Chamerlain.
    Chamberlain was removed as Prime Minister, but remained party leader by acclamation of the National coalition until he was forced to resign due to his terminal illness. If he had not been dying, there is no reason to think he would have resigned as leader although given his age and unpopularity it's hard to imagine he would have returned to the office of Prime Minister.

    Edit - also, Eden was told he would have died had he not resigned. Chamberlain was booked either way.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,181
    Anyone who believes what a whipping operation says about the certainties of a secret ballot when the electorate is 120 stoats and ferrets including those doing the whipping and those being whipped deserves all that is coming.

    On the leadership question, I suppose there is an outside chance that the remaining candidates have some special quality not yet revealed, but I should think most usually Tory voters will just wait and see on the basis that the party has a huge amount to prove to its distantly vanishing supporters.

    Cleverly, the rejected candidate, is the one least likely to have surprised us as leader, either on the upside or the downside. So at least there is a chance of the outcome being interesting
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,980
    Nigelb said:

    More on that TIPP poll.
    It's probably not unfair to say that questionable voter filters along these lines make a pretty large proportion of US polls highly unreliable.

    All adds to the uncertainty.

    https://x.com/baseballot/status/1844825151214412037
    The poll got our attention because, while its registered-voter version included 124 RVs from Philadelphia, 116 of whom said they were “very” or “somewhat” likely to vote, the LV version had only 12 LVs from there.

    ...We thought this might be an error, so we reached out to TIPP & American Greatness. The president of TIPP responded and said it wasn’t an error: This poll’s LV model assigns a vote probability to each respondent based on their demographics & vote history, and…

    ...a disproportionate # of their Philly respondents had factors that made them unlikely to vote: they were young, not a college graduate, and/or nonwhite. So a ton of them happened to fall beneath the threshold to count as a likely voter.

    ..(He also said that respondents’ answer to the “how likely are you to vote” question was a factor in this poll’s LV model as well, but only a small one. He also confirmed that TIPP alone, and not American Greatness, determined the LV model.)

    ...Now, this is a different LV model than some past TIPP polls have used. For example, their September polls of AZ and NC counted everyone as a likely voter if they reported that they were “very” or “somewhat” likely to vote. (But, notably, more recent GA and NV polls did not.)

    ...When I asked about this, he said that TIPP actually has 5 different LV models. While he would not tell me how they decide which LV model to use on which poll, he did say that they have decided to use the PA model on all polls going forward...

    A good reason then to ignore any further polling from them .

    Even worse 538 continue to include clearly biased pollsters in their model . The excuse being that this poll only effected the model by 0.1 towards Trump . Ignoring that if enough dodgy polls get included even with their down weighting they can move that more substantially . GOP biased pollsters have accounted for nearly half of those published recently , there’s very few Dem biased polls published so there’s no counter weight .

    This is all about helping Trumps stolen election narrative if he loses .
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,123
    edited 8:29AM
    I'm not sure if PB has discussed the police who stopped UK athlete Bianca Williams and her bf Ricardo Dos Santos in their car, and were accused of harassment, have been cleared on Appeal?

    It's a few days ago, and is slightly complex as a case.

    I was always sceptical of the allegations as the one video that was not heavily clipped showed them fooling around with a mobile phone filming for some time before exiting vehicle as requested; that did not seem to be to be the way to behave in those circs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/met-police-officers-sacked-over-athlete-stop-and-search-handed-jobs-back-after-winning-appeal-13227649
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,306
    edited 8:29AM
    Whether the current CoS would say the same is questionable. But I approve.

    ..Former Chief of Staff of Poland's Armed Forces General Rajmund Andrzejczak:

    "If Russian forces cross the border into Lithuania, allies will target all of Russia’s strategic assets within 300km radius in the first minutes. We will strike directly at St. Petersburg."

    Statement at the Defending Baltics conference ..

    https://x.com/PawelSokala/status/1844783322775654551
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,835
    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,129
    FPT
    ydoethur said:

    Morning PB, hope everyone is well.

    I was wondering if somebody who knows more about accounting than me could give some guidance on a few questions - not advice!

    1) I believe all businesses whose turnover exceeds the VAT threshold have to register for VAT whether they charge it or not. Does that apply to charities?

    2) If not, what current additional procedures do they have to go through for accounting and audit?

    3) How long does it actually take to set up VAT registration for a medium-sized concern with a turnover of say £3-4 million?

    If anybody does know the answers to those I’d be grateful.

    1) Sort of. If your sales of VAT-able items are over £90k in a 12month period, then you have to register. This will include sales of things zero rated for VAT, but not things exempt from VAT. I think Education is currently exempt, so potentially private schools don't need to be registered. Being a charity is irrelevant, they are subject to the same VAT rules as everyone else. That said, for some businesses, it can be worth registering to reclaim their input VAT, even if they are below the £90k threshold. I'm not sure if you can do this if your only product is VAT exempt (otherwise I'm going to VAT registered as a sole trader to reclaim all the input VAT in my life) - you definitely can do this if your business is selling things that are zero rated.

    2) Not a lot, assuming they are using modern accounting software. You run a quarterly report in SAGE or whatever, it spits out the VAT collected on sales, VAT paid on purchases. Submit it to HMRC, and they either direct debit the balance or credit you a refund the following month.

    3) Pass. Probably depends a bit on how the existing accounting system is set up.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,741
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    Until, at the critical moment, he wasn't - the moment of his resignation and what it implied about his previous lack of preparation. Which undid and more all of the competent stuff earlier
    I'd put the failing earlier than that, though.

    "What to do after a Leave vote" was a question which seems to have no good answer. That being the case, it was a bad question to ask.

    And yes, that did undo (and more) the earlier positives. Still better than what followed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760
    theProle said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    Morning PB, hope everyone is well.

    I was wondering if somebody who knows more about accounting than me could give some guidance on a few questions - not advice!

    1) I believe all businesses whose turnover exceeds the VAT threshold have to register for VAT whether they charge it or not. Does that apply to charities?

    2) If not, what current additional procedures do they have to go through for accounting and audit?

    3) How long does it actually take to set up VAT registration for a medium-sized concern with a turnover of say £3-4 million?

    If anybody does know the answers to those I’d be grateful.

    1) Sort of. If your sales of VAT-able items are over £90k in a 12month period, then you have to register. This will include sales of things zero rated for VAT, but not things exempt from VAT. I think Education is currently exempt, so potentially private schools don't need to be registered. Being a charity is irrelevant, they are subject to the same VAT rules as everyone else. That said, for some businesses, it can be worth registering to reclaim their input VAT, even if they are below the £90k threshold. I'm not sure if you can do this if your only product is VAT exempt (otherwise I'm going to VAT registered as a sole trader to reclaim all the input VAT in my life) - you definitely can do this if your business is selling things that are zero rated.

    2) Not a lot, assuming they are using modern accounting software. You run a quarterly report in SAGE or whatever, it spits out the VAT collected on sales, VAT paid on purchases. Submit it to HMRC, and they either direct debit the balance or credit you a refund the following month.

    3) Pass. Probably depends a bit on how the existing accounting system is set up.

    Thanks.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 8:38AM
    MattW said:

    I'm not sure if PB has discussed the police who stopped UK athlete Bianca Williams and her bf Ricardo Dos Santos in their car, and were accused of harassment, have been cleared on Appeal?

    It's a few days ago, and is slightly complex as a case.

    I was always sceptical of the allegations as the one video that was not heavily clipped showed them fooling around with a mobile phone filming for some time before exiting vehicle as requested; that did not seem to be to be the way to behave in those circs.

    https://news.sky.com/story/met-police-officers-sacked-over-athlete-stop-and-search-handed-jobs-back-after-winning-appeal-13227649

    Danger of these heavily clipped videos, see Manchester Airport (which still in limbo).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,723
    Nigelb said:

    Whether the current CoS would say the same is questionable. But I approve.

    ..Former Chief of Staff of Poland's Armed Forces General Rajmund Andrzejczak:

    "If Russian forces cross the border into Lithuania, allies will target all of Russia’s strategic assets within 300km radius in the first minutes. We will strike directly at St. Petersburg."

    Statement at the Defending Baltics conference ..

    https://x.com/PawelSokala/status/1844783322775654551

    Well, yes, if Russia invaded Lithuania (a NATO country), the principle of collective defence would be activated and we would be at war. As to how that war would be conducted, I imagine there are all sorts of plans and scenarios out there of which this would be one.

    I may be an idiot (probably) but I simply don't get it. Russia cannot even get to Kharkiv yet if we listen to some, they have an endless force of men and weapons ready to sweep (pace Alexander I) across Europe to enslave us all. When the Warsaw Pact had troops two hours drive from the Rhine, it made some sense though I suspect even then the nature of the "threat" was grossly exaggerated to maintain a) the security state and b) keep the military-defence complex happy.

    We had the head of MI5 going on about Russia "causing mayhem in our streets". Given everything that's happened in the last decade, we really don't need Russia to do that - we're more than capable of creating our own mayhem.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,997

    Ian Hislop tears Andrea Jenkyns a new a-hole. #HIGNFY

    https://x.com/RichardScribbl1/status/1844841482076745867

    That's Dame Andrea Jenkyns to you...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 8:40AM
    Where to get growth....

    How to get UK university spinouts out of the ‘valley of death’
    https://www.ft.com/content/4d0dc010-e146-4148-a900-2322e05c5951

    One big problem is these universities ask for large chunks of equity.

    Universities shouldn't ask the 🇬🇧Government for more money for spinouts, without first reforming their own policies. @UniofOxford could reduce the 20% equity they take to the fair @Cambridge_Uni levels & cut their exhausting spinout approval process:

    https://x.com/MacfarlaneJamie/status/1844477378422243659
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,825
    eek said:

    Fpt

    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    boulay said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The 16 telltale signs you’re more common than you think – according to an etiquette expert

    After Lady Glenconner’s pronouncement that fish knives are for the unrefined, we asked William Hanson what else is par for the coarse

    1. Tie clips
    2. Liquid soap
    3. Eating on the street
    4. Holding a knife like a pen
    5. Mounted televisions
    6. Applying make-up in public
    7. Gin and tonic
    8. Prosecco in lieu of champagne
    9. Eating on the Tube
    10. Personalised number plates
    11. Zoopla and Rightmove
    12. Hot tubs
    13. The Great British Bake Off
    14. Trainers (in particular, Adidas)
    15. Buying portraits
    16. Salted caramel"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/11/the-16-telltale-signs-you-are-more-common-than-you-think/

    Yes, I recognise that list. It's very British. Aspirational working class. Except whoever is selling or buying a house is going to use Rightmove unless they have a personal agent or money is no object.

    The odd one is (7) as Colonial Administrators and well-to-do ex-pats would drink that extensively.

    Maybe it's about all the new naff flavoured gins.
    Nah, it's a list produced by someone who has just put on things that *he* thinks are a bit unclassy. I'd love to go around William Hanson's gaff and judge him by my high standards. ;)

    It's a bit like the person on Twix who's producing a list of c**ts that is just a list of his personal dislikes.

    Besides, IMO class is best shown by how you act, not these stupid things.
    Hanson is an arse. He’s not exactly upper class himself and is one of those people who think that by adopting airs and graces and etiquette that he thinks are followed by the upper classes people will think he is upper class. Clearly he doesn’t get that the real upper classes are hammering their gin and tonics. Will use whichever knife is clean to eat their fish and don’t give a fig about silly rules like this.

    Today however there will be a load of insecure weirdos binning their trainers, cancelling their portrait purchases and hissing at GBBO.

    And who ever thought tie clips were anything but naff anyway?
    I think Hanson is a faux-wannabe and a bit of a prat, and you're right he's an imitator- making those sorts of list alone is unclassy- but it largely rings true.

    I'd say he's middle-class desperately wanting to appear upper-class.

    Those on his list will either be aspirational working class, and proud of it, or lower middle-class horrified they might be associated with the same, and will thus turn their guns on Hanson.
    A more interesting and provocative list would be “telltale signs you are more posh than you think” targeted at those people who insist they’re salt of the earth working class and in touch with the views of the masses, despite their very evident middle classness.

    - Sourdough
    - Microsoft teams
    - Floorboards
    - Flat whites
    - Cycling
    - Amazon prime
    - Wagamama
    - Kitchen extensions
    - Monzo
    - Rightmove & Zoopla
    - Greek Yoghurt
    - Going to Aldi & Lidl for the wine section
    That's a far more interesting, and revealing, list than the other one. I'm not sure which Lady Glenconner we mean, but the current one is a 1930s girl. And the 'posh' house (Holkham Hall) is pastiche Palladio.

    To me it reads very "Islington dinner party", sort of from Inner Londoners who never get beyond the M25, and are significantly out of touch. Stereotypically, they'd get Abel & Cole (Okay, Ya?) to "be organic" rather than grow their own, or use a farm shop which might involve taking mud off a carrot.

    (My comments are probably also revealing :smile: ).

    Cycling is interesting to me; "middle class" is one of the baseless distracting tropes used by anti-LTN types, who don't want others to have what they have got. The changing demographics (from TFL) say different, but around here transport cycling has always been people who do it for the cost or convenience. There is a separate layer who take their cycle 5-10 miles in their car to cycle it somewhere, like walking the dog or the disabled relative.

    Wagamama iirc started as a mass-catering echoing-hall stripped down food chain in London in the 1990s for "quick eat and go".

    To Aldi for wine sounds like people who have only just discovered it in say the last 10 years. My relations in London used to always return there with a boot full of Aldi food, as it saved 1/4 or 1/3 - that's back to the late 1990s.
    Aldi wine is very different from Aldi food - the wine buyer has been pulling tricks for over a decade - this year should have another crop Canadian ice wine that will sell out in minutes when it appears at 1/3 the usual price
    I used to buy Ice Cider from Scrattings before they ceased trading.

    Awesome stuff.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,064
    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,825

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 8:43AM
    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    US middle class aren't spending their Saturday's in John Lewis (insert Macy's) buying Emma Bridgewater plates and mugs....checks credit card notifications as Mrs U is currently there....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,723
    Morning all :)

    On the subject of David Cameron, I'll offer two thoughts. The EU Referendum left him mentally and physically exhausted - he had already suggested he wouldn't serve the full term and the general thought was he would hand over to Osborne who would then seek his own mandate in 2020.

    The result of the EU Referendum left him, for all the protestations of loyalty, a prisoner. His power was gone - he would have been effectively held hostage in No.10 by the LEAVE supporters in the Party - and what remained of his influence in the EU would have been gone as well.

    If, as a Prime Minister, you don't have the freedom to act or control events even within your own party, what is the point of you? It's a lesson both Theresa May and Liz Truss would also learn.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,181

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    Until, at the critical moment, he wasn't - the moment of his resignation and what it implied about his previous lack of preparation. Which undid and more all of the competent stuff earlier
    I'd put the failing earlier than that, though.

    "What to do after a Leave vote" was a question which seems to have no good answer. That being the case, it was a bad question to ask.

    And yes, that did undo (and more) the earlier positives. Still better than what followed.
    There was a possible answer, ie by leaving the EU under art 50 simultaneous with remaining in the SM by the EEA/EFTA route so that once out of the political union the UK could then take stock at leisure. This was politically difficult of course, but as it was the only sane answer there should have been almost total cross parliamentary support for it, with all taking the flack equally. Dream on...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,596
    Jenrick wants us to leave the EUHCR so I wouldn't vote fir him. I hope Kemi isn't as loony?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,306
    .
    nico679 said:

    Nigelb said:

    More on that TIPP poll.
    It's probably not unfair to say that questionable voter filters along these lines make a pretty large proportion of US polls highly unreliable.

    All adds to the uncertainty.

    https://x.com/baseballot/status/1844825151214412037
    The poll got our attention because, while its registered-voter version included 124 RVs from Philadelphia, 116 of whom said they were “very” or “somewhat” likely to vote, the LV version had only 12 LVs from there.

    ...We thought this might be an error, so we reached out to TIPP & American Greatness. The president of TIPP responded and said it wasn’t an error: This poll’s LV model assigns a vote probability to each respondent based on their demographics & vote history, and…

    ...a disproportionate # of their Philly respondents had factors that made them unlikely to vote: they were young, not a college graduate, and/or nonwhite. So a ton of them happened to fall beneath the threshold to count as a likely voter.

    ..(He also said that respondents’ answer to the “how likely are you to vote” question was a factor in this poll’s LV model as well, but only a small one. He also confirmed that TIPP alone, and not American Greatness, determined the LV model.)

    ...Now, this is a different LV model than some past TIPP polls have used. For example, their September polls of AZ and NC counted everyone as a likely voter if they reported that they were “very” or “somewhat” likely to vote. (But, notably, more recent GA and NV polls did not.)

    ...When I asked about this, he said that TIPP actually has 5 different LV models. While he would not tell me how they decide which LV model to use on which poll, he did say that they have decided to use the PA model on all polls going forward...

    A good reason then to ignore any further polling from them .

    Even worse 538 continue to include clearly biased pollsters in their model . The excuse being that this poll only effected the model by 0.1 towards Trump . Ignoring that if enough dodgy polls get included even with their down weighting they can move that more substantially . GOP biased pollsters have accounted for nearly half of those published recently , there’s very few Dem biased polls published so there’s no counter weight .

    This is all about helping Trumps stolen election narrative if he loses .
    Any pollster can get it wrong, but deciding to double down on what's clearly a massively flawed methodology, is inexcusable.

    ...he did say that they have decided to use the PA model on all polls going forward..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760
    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    Making enormous efforts, including violent ones, to overthrow an election and threatening to murder senior officials who blocked him would definitely seem to me to have overtones of Fascism.

    But politically it's an inept analogy.

    Falsifies figures? Check.
    Refuses elections that give the wrong result? Check.
    Pretends to be much richer than he is? Check.
    Talks about helping the poor while doing nothing for them? Check.
    Builds grandiose projects that don't work and suck the money away from useful things? Check.

    He's not a Fascist.

    He's a Commie.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 69,306
    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    I think it's fair to say that he is one, albeit extremely disorganised.
    The danger is that this time round his team aren't old style Washington; they are more determined than he is - and considerably more organised.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,980
    An indicator to the US election is likely to be the gender gap and vote turnout in over 65s .

    This is because this cohort normally shows voter turnout higher in men than women . This is the reverse of 18 to 64 year olds.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,064

    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    US middle class aren't spending their Saturday's in John Lewis (insert Macy's) buying Emma Bridgewater plates and mugs....checks credit card notifications as Mrs U is currently there....
    I suspect C1 and C2 or equivalent is a bigger and more respected share of the population in the US than here. Albeit skilled technician type jobs are disappearing there too.
  • FPT viewcode said:
    viewcode said:

    How do you derive the probability of a win from a poll? This stack exchange session attempts to answer that question:

    https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/274211/calculating-the-probability-of-someone-winning-from-a-poll

    An example of the first answer would be if Trump was 49%, Harris was 48%, and "others" were 3%, (49+48+3=100) then the probability of Trump winning the state is 49/100.

    I understand the math (grimaces nervously: can't sleep and head is fuzzy) but I'm not sure and it's not the way I'd have worked it out via means and variances. If anybody can confirm the math I'd be grateful.

    Interesting topic and it looks like an accurate explanation (not an expert, just a jobbing mathematician) but he only goes half way.

    What he's saying is given a situation with real percentage supporters (Pa Pb Pc) you can calculate that you'd get a poll with the responses (a, b, c) a certain percent of the time. And (with a large electorate) the most likely (Pa Pb Pc) are a/n, b/n, c/n - but with a small sample size that can be way off.

    You'd typically use a Bayesian prior as to the probability of a given (Pa, Pb, Pc) (uniform? based on the last election?) to calculate the probability of any possible (Pa, Pb, Pc) given that poll.

    Given a single candidate (Pa Pb Pc) it's pretty trivial to run a Monte Carlo analysis, or use a standard formula to find out how often A, B, C are FPTP.

    So using your Bayesian derived probabilities you could randomly generate candidate (Pa Pb Pc), then with that candidate you could then run an estimate of the actual result and add the results. That's the sort of thing 538 does.

    And all that's only useful if the poll is representative!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,723
    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    I don't like the word "fascist" either - I prefer authoritarian.

    If the primary purpose of winning power is not to do the best you can for the citizens of your country but to use the office for your both your personal advancement and for seeking revenge against those who you believe have wronged you, what would you call that?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,997
    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    Well, if not fascist, then what is left is just him being unhinged. Either should disqualify him.

    It's almost impossible to listen to his stump speeches, because there is no policy content, just rambling bile. He is an extraordinarily angry old man. He lists al those who have slighted him, mixed with bald lies and inate racism.

    In the UK we have never been offered anything like Trump. It's why it is so difficult for us to comprehend his appeal. If he stood for PM in this country, he would be mocked and pilloried - point and laugh at the crazy guy. And vote for someone else.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,688
    I know that I’m on holiday so might have missed it but have we discussed the impact of Jenrick insisting that all MPs will need to support his idea of binning our membership of the ECHR?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,016
    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    So when Britons say "middle class" they don't really mean middle class, but rather SE group A? Even though A and B combined are 23% of the population and C2 is 32% by the 2021 census? Hence more than 77% of the population are below "middle class". It's absurd use of language.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,064
    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    I think Trump actually wants to be king. Feudal more than fascist but with as little respect for democracy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,760
    eek said:

    I know that I’m on holiday so might have missed it but have we discussed the impact of Jenrick insisting that all MPs will need to support his idea of binning our membership of the ECHR?

    What's he going to do with the 50% who tell him to get stuffed? Withdraw the whip? Lose the title of Leader of the Opposition?

    What a twat. Makes Zarah Sultana deducted from Richard Burgon look like an intellectual.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,741
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    Until, at the critical moment, he wasn't - the moment of his resignation and what it implied about his previous lack of preparation. Which undid and more all of the competent stuff earlier
    I'd put the failing earlier than that, though.

    "What to do after a Leave vote" was a question which seems to have no good answer. That being the case, it was a bad question to ask.

    And yes, that did undo (and more) the earlier positives. Still better than what followed.
    There was a possible answer, ie by leaving the EU under art 50 simultaneous with remaining in the SM by the EEA/EFTA route so that once out of the political union the UK could then take stock at leisure. This was politically difficult of course, but as it was the only sane answer there should have been almost total cross parliamentary support for it, with all taking the flack equally. Dream on...
    Exactly- that was the only sane route available. And soon after that, you'd have had the first howls of "BINO, Betrayal, not what 17.4 million voted for". Probably within 17.4 seconds.

    Some people would have been content with that, but nowhere near enough.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,556
    edited 8:59AM
    ydoethur said:

    theProle said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    Morning PB, hope everyone is well.

    I was wondering if somebody who knows more about accounting than me could give some guidance on a few questions - not advice!

    1) I believe all businesses whose turnover exceeds the VAT threshold have to register for VAT whether they charge it or not. Does that apply to charities?

    2) If not, what current additional procedures do they have to go through for accounting and audit?

    3) How long does it actually take to set up VAT registration for a medium-sized concern with a turnover of say £3-4 million?

    If anybody does know the answers to those I’d be grateful.

    1) Sort of. If your sales of VAT-able items are over £90k in a 12month period, then you have to register. This will include sales of things zero rated for VAT, but not things exempt from VAT. I think Education is currently exempt, so potentially private schools don't need to be registered. Being a charity is irrelevant, they are subject to the same VAT rules as everyone else. That said, for some businesses, it can be worth registering to reclaim their input VAT, even if they are below the £90k threshold. I'm not sure if you can do this if your only product is VAT exempt (otherwise I'm going to VAT registered as a sole trader to reclaim all the input VAT in my life) - you definitely can do this if your business is selling things that are zero rated.

    2) Not a lot, assuming they are using modern accounting software. You run a quarterly report in SAGE or whatever, it spits out the VAT collected on sales, VAT paid on purchases. Submit it to HMRC, and they either direct debit the balance or credit you a refund the following month.

    3) Pass. Probably depends a bit on how the existing accounting system is set up.

    Thanks.
    On 2 Id recommend Absolute VAT. £40 a year and all you need is another spreadsheet where you can link various boxes to. I submit VAT for a group and it's miles cheaper than what our accountancy software providers add on would be. Basically it makes Excel MTD compliant
    Also remember that boxes 2, 8 and 9 are Northern Ireland to or from EU only now
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,731
    If you believe that pigs can fly...

    Most likely scenario was Jenrick supporters trying to game the system by lending votes to Cleverley in the 3rd round and taking them back in the 4th round.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,741
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    I know that I’m on holiday so might have missed it but have we discussed the impact of Jenrick insisting that all MPs will need to support his idea of binning our membership of the ECHR?

    What's he going to do with the 50% who tell him to get stuffed? Withdraw the whip? Lose the title of Leader of the Opposition?

    What a twat. Makes Zarah Sultana deducted from Richard Burgon look like an intellectual.
    We've had Johnson as cosplay Churchill, Truss as cosplay Thatcher, possibly Sunak as cosplay Major (not entirely convinced about that one).

    Now we have cosplay Johnson?!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,556
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    US middle class aren't spending their Saturday's in John Lewis (insert Macy's) buying Emma Bridgewater plates and mugs....checks credit card notifications as Mrs U is currently there....
    I suspect C1 and C2 or equivalent is a bigger and more respected share of the population in the US than here. Albeit skilled technician type jobs are disappearing there too.
    The biggest difference is that middle class is regarded as sort of poor in the US and everyone is desperate to show they're richer than that whereas here it's sort of rich and everyone is desperate to show they're working class which would be middle class for the USA
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,997

    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    Well, if not fascist, then what is left is just him being unhinged. Either should disqualify him.

    It's almost impossible to listen to his stump speeches, because there is no policy content, just rambling bile. He is an extraordinarily angry old man. He lists al those who have slighted him, mixed with bald lies and inate racism.

    In the UK we have never been offered anything like Trump. It's why it is so difficult for us to comprehend his appeal. If he stood for PM in this country, he would be mocked and pilloried - point and laugh at the crazy guy. And vote for someone else.
    We hope.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    US middle class aren't spending their Saturday's in John Lewis (insert Macy's) buying Emma Bridgewater plates and mugs....checks credit card notifications as Mrs U is currently there....
    I suspect C1 and C2 or equivalent is a bigger and more respected share of the population in the US than here. Albeit skilled technician type jobs are disappearing there too.
    The biggest difference is that middle class is regarded as sort of poor in the US and everyone is desperate to show they're richer than that whereas here it's sort of rich and everyone is desperate to show they're working class which would be middle class for the USA
    And what do we call people who boast about having 83" tellies?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,354
    One other thing I detest about Twitter is tweets of the type of "Person I love Y has just torn person I hate X a new one".

    And, then, when you watch the clip you discover it's anything but.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 9:11AM
    They told us it was remotely operated
    https://x.com/DirtyTesLa/status/1844654819920970160

    Looks like Leon is going to be washing his dirty smalls for quite a while longer....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 9:12AM

    One other thing I detest about Twitter is tweets of the type of "Person I love Y has just torn person I hate X a new one".

    And, then, when you watch the clip you discover it's anything but.

    I believe that is about 90% of JOE's output....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,181

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    maxh said:

    Foxy said:

    Tories need a leader with a ruthless streak and one that can count.

    He may well be a shit, but Jenrick isn't shit at climbing the greasy pole.

    Yes, put aside political views, he is clearly the purer political operator.
    My concern is that the obvious step for him if he gets into power is to go Trumpian. I suspect he'd happily do that whilst I think Badenoch would forge her own principled path which I think is healthier (even if I'd be on a path going the other way).
    if Badenoch wins next month then this confirms she will not make it to the general election if she performs badly, two thirds of the parliamentary party didn’t vote for her.

    Let's put these two together. He's a purer political operator, but also a liar and a cheat as well as a fool and a crook whom everyone has reason to despise. And he has the support of barely a third of MPs - less, if you include the ones claimed to be tricked into voting for him.

    If he wins will he last twelve months?

    He seems to me like Walter Long - the empty headed high priest of arch-Toryism beloved of the headbangers but despised by everyone else. And it was seriously canvassed in 1911 that Austen Chamberlain should let him win so after a year Long would be forced to resign with his reputation ruined.

    (In the end both Long and Chamberlain stepped aside for Bonar Law. But that's another story.)
    Going back to the bar chart in Thursday's header, three years is a very good innings for a Conservative leader in the post-Hague era.

    And Cameron was in a different class to the others as a political operator.
    Until, at the critical moment, he wasn't - the moment of his resignation and what it implied about his previous lack of preparation. Which undid and more all of the competent stuff earlier
    I'd put the failing earlier than that, though.

    "What to do after a Leave vote" was a question which seems to have no good answer. That being the case, it was a bad question to ask.

    And yes, that did undo (and more) the earlier positives. Still better than what followed.
    There was a possible answer, ie by leaving the EU under art 50 simultaneous with remaining in the SM by the EEA/EFTA route so that once out of the political union the UK could then take stock at leisure. This was politically difficult of course, but as it was the only sane answer there should have been almost total cross parliamentary support for it, with all taking the flack equally. Dream on...
    Exactly- that was the only sane route available. And soon after that, you'd have had the first howls of "BINO, Betrayal, not what 17.4 million voted for". Probably within 17.4 seconds.

    Some people would have been content with that, but nowhere near enough.
    Yes. Which is why that particular moment required national leadership of a statesmanlike sort, and an overwhelming parliamentary unity from the major parties as there was only one sane way to enact Brexit. The number one need was for continuity of leadership from the PM and the top table, with of course a well prepared plan for the outcome. Dream on...
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,590
    stodge said:

    Nigelb said:

    Whether the current CoS would say the same is questionable. But I approve.

    ..Former Chief of Staff of Poland's Armed Forces General Rajmund Andrzejczak:

    "If Russian forces cross the border into Lithuania, allies will target all of Russia’s strategic assets within 300km radius in the first minutes. We will strike directly at St. Petersburg."

    Statement at the Defending Baltics conference ..

    https://x.com/PawelSokala/status/1844783322775654551

    Well, yes, if Russia invaded Lithuania (a NATO country), the principle of collective defence would be activated and we would be at war. As to how that war would be conducted, I imagine there are all sorts of plans and scenarios out there of which this would be one.

    I may be an idiot (probably) but I simply don't get it. Russia cannot even get to Kharkiv yet if we listen to some, they have an endless force of men and weapons ready to sweep (pace Alexander I) across Europe to enslave us all. When the Warsaw Pact had troops two hours drive from the Rhine, it made some sense though I suspect even then the nature of the "threat" was grossly exaggerated to maintain a) the security state and b) keep the military-defence complex happy.

    We had the head of MI5 going on about Russia "causing mayhem in our streets". Given everything that's happened in the last decade, we really don't need Russia to do that - we're more than capable of creating our own mayhem.
    I suspect some of the threat vis a vis NATO members is overegged at present but that's not to say that Russian aggression isn't a concern and Russia can do an excellent job of undermining Western resolve for its own aims - which it's already doing. It is surely not inconceivable that, in time, if the bonds of NATO fray, Russia may be emboldened enough to think the unthinkable?

    But there is one thing Trump is correct on (even if his methods are distasteful and highly concerning). Europe as a whole does need to spend more on its defence.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,299
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    So when Britons say "middle class" they don't really mean middle class, but rather SE group A? Even though A and B combined are 23% of the population and C2 is 32% by the 2021 census? Hence more than 77% of the population are below "middle class". It's absurd use of language.
    The British terminology is based on a pyramid system with the top third being the upper class.

    Robert Waller used the term professional/managerial for ABs and non-manual for ABCs in his constituency guides.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,508

    We've had Johnson as cosplay Churchill, Truss as cosplay Thatcher, possibly Sunak as cosplay Major (not entirely convinced about that one).

    Now we have cosplay Johnson?!

    Which is a problem when the real thing hasn't departed the scene
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,386
    Off topic: when a council election has, say, a 25% turnout, who's voting? What kinds of people? Has there been any polling or research on this? I mean other than the actual results, of course.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 919
    Will the Conservative Centre break away and form their own group, probably linking with the Lib Dems.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,969

    Pulpstar said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    When comparing class attitudes between the UK and the US bear in mind the US has a different definition of middle class. These are people literally in the middle, broadly equivalent to C1 and C2 social classes.

    US middle class aren't spending their Saturday's in John Lewis (insert Macy's) buying Emma Bridgewater plates and mugs....checks credit card notifications as Mrs U is currently there....
    I suspect C1 and C2 or equivalent is a bigger and more respected share of the population in the US than here. Albeit skilled technician type jobs are disappearing there too.
    The biggest difference is that middle class is regarded as sort of poor in the US and everyone is desperate to show they're richer than that whereas here it's sort of rich and everyone is desperate to show they're working class which would be middle class for the USA
    And what do we call people who boast about having 83" tellies?
    @TSE?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,272
    edited 9:20AM
    stodge said:

    Taz said:

    Apologies if William Glenn and Sandpit have posted this already.

    Ex-Trump Official Calls Former President ‘A Total Fascist’

    The former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Trump administration said the former president "is now the most dangerous person to this country.”


    Retired Army General, Mark Milley, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under former President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden, now says Trump is a “total fascist” and “fascist to the core,” according to a forthcoming book by Bob Woodward, the famed Watergate journalist.

    “He is the most dangerous person ever,” Milley told Woodward for his book “War,” according to The Guardian. “I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realise he’s a total fascist. He is now the most dangerous person to this country.”

    “A fascist to the core,” Milley said.

    Part of Milley’s warning about Trump revolves around the former president’s promise to get revenge on his perceived political enemies. Trump has frequently told his supporters on the campaign trail: “I am your retribution.” Milley, who clashed with Trump in the White House and who has since been publicly critical of the current Republican presidential nominee, told Woodward that he’s afraid of being recalled from retirement to be court-martialled if Trump wins the election next month.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ex-trump-official-calls-former-president-a-total-fascist_uk_670a2f35e4b03acb5636e768

    More than a touch of Rik in The Young Ones there.

    Is Trump a fascist really ? Or is it just a word people throw around about people they don’t like.
    I don't like the word "fascist" either - I prefer authoritarian.

    If the primary purpose of winning power is not to do the best you can for the citizens of your country but to use the office for your both your personal advancement and for seeking revenge against those who you believe have wronged you, what would you call that?
    I’d describe Trump as a mobster, like many other world leaders before him: people like Mobutu, Peron, Yanukovich, Assad, Netanyahu.

    Francis Fukuyama makes a useful distinction between conservative authoritarianism and fascism. Authoritarians believe in church, family, monarchy (or its republican equivalent), paternalism and patriarchy, and trace their beliefs back to the past. They emphasise continuity. Authoritarianism is conservative with a small c.

    Fascism on the other hand is a revolutionary ideology that seeks to transform the state, it’s distrustful of religion and whilst it pays lip service to “family values” it puts the needs of the state above those of the family unit. It seeks war and conquest as a form of self actualisation. Continuity is anathema.

    Hence for example Franco was an authoritarian, while Mussolini was a (the) fascist.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,272
    theakes said:

    Will the Conservative Centre break away and form their own group, probably linking with the Lib Dems.

    QTWTAIN.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,673
    edited 9:18AM
    theakes said:

    Will the Conservative Centre break away and form their own group, probably linking with the Lib Dems.

    I don't think that works. Lib Dems wouldn't have them and politically much larger gap than 2010 Orange Bookers / Cameron Tories. Lib Dem are to the left of Labour of plenty of things now and even Conservative centre isn't as centrist as 2010 Tories (as most of them either tried ChangeUK, packed it in, or thrown out by Boris).
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,590

    Jenrick wants us to leave the EUHCR so I wouldn't vote fir him. I hope Kemi isn't as loony?

    Well, she says she's not ruling it out. Though the fact she hasn't gone in with a hard "yes" suggests to me she's prevaricating. If I give her the benefit of the doubt (which might be being charitable) she may have sensed that starting a civil war over it at this stage isn't in her interests if she becomes leader, and it's much easier to announce policy nearer an election when you can assess the lie of the land/where the electorate sit.
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