For those who don’t know - NASA contracted with SpaceX and Boeing to provide human access to the International Space Station under the Commercial Crew program.
SpaceX’s Dragon, launched on Falcon 9 has been up and running for years.
Boeing is running so late that some thought they might miss the end of the Space Station - due to be decommissioned at the end of this decade.
Faults, mistakes, failed test flights. It’s been a mess.
The final checkout flight, with two astronauts, has turned into another mess. The thrusters for the space craft are acting up (among other things). Without thrusters, in space you are dead.
So the return of the astronauts on the Boeing Starliner has been delayed and now delayed again.
Further - the reason that the NASA administrator is saying that he will make the final decision is a sign. Within NASA, there is a process, by which an engineer who isn’t happy with a decision can formally kick it upstairs. So there is division in NASA about what to do.
One option is to return the astronauts on the next SpaceX Dragon. But it turns out that that Boeing deleted the option from Starliner to do an automated, unmanned return. If Starliner can’t leave ISS that’s another disaster - it bock one of the docking ports
Why politics?
1) The astronauts abandoning Starliner and going home in Dragon will nearly certainly end the Starliner program. A public humiliation for Boeing. 2) Boeing has a vast army of political supporters - the decision is political 3) if the astronauts return in Starliner and there is an accident. It will be a massive thing - hearings in Congress for a start. There would be accusations of political interference. 4) the NASA admin - Bill Nelson - is a political appointee and former Dem politician.
This is touching the White House and, potentially, November.
Not sure the astronauts want to come back on Starliner - would you, in their position?
If they have what I’ll euphemistically call an adverse event on re-entry, that will sure as hell affect politics in the run up to the election.
The sensible thing to do is send them back on Dragon, which has its own political implications, but is a lot less likely to end up with two dead explorers.
Then they need to either work out how to get Starliner back uncrewed, or instead send it off into space somewhere. If it’s stuck attached to the ISS in an unserviceable state, then everyone has several years of looking at it parked there, as a constant reminder of just how badly Boeing screwed the pooch on this one.
Boeing has not had a good few years.
There's definitely a documentary that should look at the twin fortunes of Boeing and Intel over the last decade. Both companies receive huge government support and both companies are currently in the shit for various reasons but mainly due to quality and falling behind the competition. Both companies were run by engineers in their glory days and both were taken over by lesser bean counters and everything turned to shit. Intel has gone back to Pat Gelsinger but probably 5 years too late and Boeing just seems to be stuck with Harvard/Yale MBA types.
Muilenberger, who was CEO for most of the MAX and 777X debacles, was a career Boeing engineer who ran some large and complex programs such as X-32 and F-22. So engineers good/spreadsheet wankers bad is reductive and probably wrong.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
That's the Ascension procession buggered, and ditto the next induction of a Pisky vicar doing the rounds of the local nonconformist kirk deaseal. As for carols at Christmas ...
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
You missed out those concerned about the cogency of the respective candidates too. That is going to be key. If voters think Trump is fine the EC goes to Trump. If they think Trump is as mad as a bag of frogs and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the nuclear codes he loses.
The Biden precedent is interesting.
We may find it hard to comprehend, but many Americans do find Trump credible
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
Trump's polling lead on both of the latter has dropped considerably.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
My gut is that Ukraine lacks the capacity to drive the Russians out.
The Russians, though, have at least as big problem, which is that merely occupying Ukrainian territory is incredibly expensive, both financially and in terms of manpower and materiel. There have been stories circulating about Russian units refusing to advance, which suggests serious issues with the military.
Here's the thing: why would Ukraine take a peace deal now, while they are continuing to inflict serious casualties on the Russians at relatively modest costs to themselves? What's the incentive?
Christ*, I hadn't realised how bad the rioting was in Southport. 93 officers injured and 6 dog teams out of action due to injury for Merseyside Police.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
It’d be such a shitty and unenforceable law.
I’d be fine to chant in public ‘God is great’?
Or
‘No officer, I was sneezing.’
I think laws like that are ill advised, I mean it's probably not a good idea to give it the old Allahu Akbar if you're in a certain type of demonstration/protest/riot but if you criminalise that then you'd need to criminalise certain songs sung to the tune of "give me oil in my lamp" and then you end up with the mess of The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
That's the Ascension procession buggered, and ditto the next induction of a Pisky vicar doing the rounds of the local nonconformist kirk deaseal. As for carols at Christmas ...
God save the King shocking rabble rousing by the Protestant ascendancy.
Your regular reminder that RCP cherry p[icks which polls to include - and currently that means excluding a Harris +5 (from a Republican pollster!) that's been out for a week. You're far better off with 538. And Harris is leading there by nearly 2 points...
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
I think it is very slightly more complicated than that, because there is not one US economy, but several. So - for example - in Arizona and Nevada, residents typically have big mortgages and the rise in interest rates over the last couple of years have hammered voters.
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Elon Musk isn't a "dissenter", unless dissenter now means "lying racist hypocritical billionaire arsehole" nowadays.
Did Musk first start hating Britain when a British diver refused his offer to save people trapped in a cave in Thailand? Anyway he can fuck off the fucking weirdo.
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
It’d be such a shitty and unenforceable law.
I’d be fine to chant in public ‘God is great’?
Or
‘No officer, I was sneezing.’
I think laws like that are ill advised, I mean it's probably not a good idea to give it the old Allahu Akbar if you're in a certain type of demonstration/protest/riot but if you criminalise that then you'd need to criminalise certain songs sung to the tune of "give me oil in my lamp" and then you end up with the mess of The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
We’d be in a position where saying Allahu Akbar in public is illegal but saying Fuck The Pope isn’t.
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
I think it is very slightly more complicated than that, because there is not one US economy, but several. So - for example - in Arizona and Nevada, residents typically have big mortgages and the rise in interest rates over the last couple of years have hammered voters.
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
I thought people had long term fixed rate mortgages in the US.
So while you may have a big expensive mortgage the only impact is if people move or otherwise have to remortgage. It's not like the UK where people take 2 or 5 year deals and need to remortgage at the end of them to get another decent rate.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
It’d be such a shitty and unenforceable law.
I’d be fine to chant in public ‘God is great’?
Or
‘No officer, I was sneezing.’
I think laws like that are ill advised, I mean it's probably not a good idea to give it the old Allahu Akbar if you're in a certain type of demonstration/protest/riot but if you criminalise that then you'd need to criminalise certain songs sung to the tune of "give me oil in my lamp" and then you end up with the mess of The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
We’d be in a position where saying Allahu Akbar in public is illegal but saying Fuck The Pope isn’t.
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
I think it is very slightly more complicated than that, because there is not one US economy, but several. So - for example - in Arizona and Nevada, residents typically have big mortgages and the rise in interest rates over the last couple of years have hammered voters.
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
Don't many Americans have 30 year fixed rate mortgages, so have been much less affected even if they have a big mortgage?
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
It’d be such a shitty and unenforceable law.
I’d be fine to chant in public ‘God is great’?
Or
‘No officer, I was sneezing.’
I think laws like that are ill advised, I mean it's probably not a good idea to give it the old Allahu Akbar if you're in a certain type of demonstration/protest/riot but if you criminalise that then you'd need to criminalise certain songs sung to the tune of "give me oil in my lamp" and then you end up with the mess of The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
We’d be in a position where saying Allahu Akbar in public is illegal but saying Fuck The Pope isn’t.
We’d be in a position where saying “God is great” is legal in English, Welsh, Farsi, Urdu, Japanese or French, but not in Arabic.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
NATO would prefer Russia to lose after a long war rather than a short one. Putin seems willing to oblige.
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
Jenrick has made a big mistake suggesting people who say "Allahu Akbar" in public should be arrested.
Far-right rioting and he comes out with that? I appreciate the Conservative membership is pretty right wing but surely the remaining MPs won't tolerate that kind of rabble rousing.
It’d be such a shitty and unenforceable law.
I’d be fine to chant in public ‘God is great’?
Or
‘No officer, I was sneezing.’
I think laws like that are ill advised, I mean it's probably not a good idea to give it the old Allahu Akbar if you're in a certain type of demonstration/protest/riot but if you criminalise that then you'd need to criminalise certain songs sung to the tune of "give me oil in my lamp" and then you end up with the mess of The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012.
But haven't you heard, oil is going to be banned for green reasons.
I was wondering if the song was about a martyr (did Joan of Arc have oil?), but St Laurence the Human Waffle was the closest I can find. The ruler of Rome demanded the 'wealth of the church', so St Laurence gave it all away to the poor, then:
As a deacon in Rome, Lawrence was responsible for the material goods of the Church and the distribution of alms to the poor. Ambrose of Milan related that when the treasures of the Church were demanded of Lawrence by the prefect of Rome, he brought forward the poor, to whom he had distributed the treasure as alms. "Behold in these poor persons the treasures which I promised to show you; to which I will add pearls and precious stones, those widows and consecrated virgins, which are the Church's crown." The prefect was so angry that he had a great gridiron prepared with hot coals beneath it and had Lawrence placed on it, hence Lawrence's association with the gridiron. After the martyr had suffered pain for a long time, the legend concludes, he cheerfully declared: "I'm well done on this side. Turn me over!" From this, St. Lawrence derives his patronage of cooks, chefs, and comedians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence
I suspect @MrBedfordshire can tell us how accurate this account is to the actual legend.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
A lot more than the JSO lot got for the first offences.
Though I expect this wasn't a first offence for many either.
It will be interesting to see how long the sentences of those guilty of attempting to burn down hotels full of people in Rotherham and Tamworth receive.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
I think it is very slightly more complicated than that, because there is not one US economy, but several. So - for example - in Arizona and Nevada, residents typically have big mortgages and the rise in interest rates over the last couple of years have hammered voters.
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
Don't many Americans have 30 year fixed rate mortgages, so have been much less affected even if they have a big mortgage?
In the old days, yes. But increasingly the market is 5 years ARMs, so it's fixed for five years and then floating.
Your regular reminder that RCP cherry p[icks which polls to include - and currently that means excluding a Harris +5 (from a Republican pollster!) that's been out for a week. You're far better off with 538. And Harris is leading there by nearly 2 points...
My link was to the betting average, not the polling average.
I don’t particularly trust American polling, given the lack of an independent regulator, a long record of push polling and leading questions, and that they’ve got so many recent elections completely wrong. The betting average shows where people are putting actual money down.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
It's not comparable I suggest.
The JSO comparisons need to be with the organisers of the riots, and even then there are unlikely to be such extensive background criminal records.
Yes, the hole-diggers will be outraged, but they are going to be outraged anyway as that, and building up a following of gullibles, is the thing they are constructing their political future on.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The optics are only terrible because plenty of Celebs/MP's/Prominent people made absurd claims about the sentences (jailed for raising awareness on climate change/attending a zoom call etc etc) and ignored the Judges sentencing notes.
It is absolutely right the JSO mob got the sentences they got.
It is absolutely right the rioters are getting the sentences they are getting many of whom will be first offenders and not on bail unlike the middle class JSO lot.
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
I think it is very slightly more complicated than that, because there is not one US economy, but several. So - for example - in Arizona and Nevada, residents typically have big mortgages and the rise in interest rates over the last couple of years have hammered voters.
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
I thought people had long term fixed rate mortgages in the US.
So while you may have a big expensive mortgage the only impact is if people move or otherwise have to remortgage. It's not like the UK where people take 2 or 5 year deals and need to remortgage at the end of them to get another decent rate.
The prevalence of 30 year mortgages has much reduced in recent years because - especially around Covid - interest rates were close to zero. People therefore entered into 3 or 5 year ARMS, which had five years at close to zero interest rates, because that was so much cheaper.
These are now coming to an end, and people - like in the UK - are being hammered.
There's also a secondary effect, and that is that higher interest rates are simply a negative for house prices. And prices have fallen, especially in new developments on the edges of Phoenix and Las Vegas, and many people are effectively trapped with negative equity. The wealth effect is very defintely negative for these people, even as their disposable income has been squeezed by prices rising faster than incomes.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
Reminds me of the gag in Blackadder Goes Forth where they are looking at the trenches and discussing the minute amount of land gained while the General gets a dustpan and brush and sweeps up the toy soldiers representing the troops.
I've found the article that essentially accused Starmer of racism over how fast the 2011 rioters were processed, but I think it was only printed about 8 or 9 years ago.
Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.
Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.
From a bit of a distance I’m not sure that’s the reason. It’s more what he says and does.
Yes, it's since he became a religious nut who wants to police women's wombs.
2014 Vance was fairly normal.
Again from a distance (not sure I’ll ever get the nuances of ‘middle class’ for the US), Walz seems to have pretty impeccable humble beginnings credentials. Also great taste.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
The JSO zoomers were serial offenders with many convictions, on suspended sentences and some were even on bail for previous offences.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.
Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.
Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.
I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
Quite: Harris's accession, the Vance VP pick, and the general organization of the Democrats have turned this into a genuinely competitive Presidential election.
But let us not forget that in the US - as in pretty much the entire developed world - prices have risen faster than wages over the last four years. Voters don't like getting poorer, and generally punish the party in power.
The only reason that this election is competitive is because Trump is such a divisive candidate, and because Republicans (other than Trump) have engaged in a politically unpopular campaign to criminalize abortion.
I would make Trump still the narrow favorite, but it could easily go either way - and a landslide victory for either candidate is not impossible.
Some Leon level forecasting there. Literally anything can happen, and that prediction will be correct.
I will revise the forecast as we get nearer the election.
But here's my order of likelihood outcomes:
1. Very narrow Republican victory, with the Sunbelt coming through for Trump, but the rust belt remaining blue.
2. Very narrow Democrat victory, with at least one of the Sunbelt states holding solid.
3. Solid Democrat victory, with the Sunbelt staying blue, and a couple of competitive states -like Iowa or Florida - flipping blue.
4. Solid Republican victory, with all of Trump's 2016 wins, plus Virginia and Nevada.
On (1) - doesn't Harris win if she holds the 3 rust belt marginals?
You are correct: it's 270 to 268... So Trump needs to win Georgia, Nevada and Arizona, plus one of the rustbelt states.
Maybe I need to make Harris the very slight favourite.
If people are more concerned about abortion, Harris wins. If people are more concerned about the economy and immigration, Trump wins.
I think it is very slightly more complicated than that, because there is not one US economy, but several. So - for example - in Arizona and Nevada, residents typically have big mortgages and the rise in interest rates over the last couple of years have hammered voters.
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
Arizona tends Republican so probably isn't that important, Nevada voted for Biden in 2020 so that may be an issue..
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
We don't police "by community" in this country. We police by individual.
For those who don’t know - NASA contracted with SpaceX and Boeing to provide human access to the International Space Station under the Commercial Crew program.
SpaceX’s Dragon, launched on Falcon 9 has been up and running for years.
Boeing is running so late that some thought they might miss the end of the Space Station - due to be decommissioned at the end of this decade.
Faults, mistakes, failed test flights. It’s been a mess.
The final checkout flight, with two astronauts, has turned into another mess. The thrusters for the space craft are acting up (among other things). Without thrusters, in space you are dead.
So the return of the astronauts on the Boeing Starliner has been delayed and now delayed again.
Further - the reason that the NASA administrator is saying that he will make the final decision is a sign. Within NASA, there is a process, by which an engineer who isn’t happy with a decision can formally kick it upstairs. So there is division in NASA about what to do.
One option is to return the astronauts on the next SpaceX Dragon. But it turns out that that Boeing deleted the option from Starliner to do an automated, unmanned return. If Starliner can’t leave ISS that’s another disaster - it bock one of the docking ports
Why politics?
1) The astronauts abandoning Starliner and going home in Dragon will nearly certainly end the Starliner program. A public humiliation for Boeing. 2) Boeing has a vast army of political supporters - the decision is political 3) if the astronauts return in Starliner and there is an accident. It will be a massive thing - hearings in Congress for a start. There would be accusations of political interference. 4) the NASA admin - Bill Nelson - is a political appointee and former Dem politician.
This is touching the White House and, potentially, November.
Not sure the astronauts want to come back on Starliner - would you, in their position?
If they have what I’ll euphemistically call an adverse event on re-entry, that will sure as hell affect politics in the run up to the election.
The sensible thing to do is send them back on Dragon, which has its own political implications, but is a lot less likely to end up with two dead explorers.
Then they need to either work out how to get Starliner back uncrewed, or instead send it off into space somewhere. If it’s stuck attached to the ISS in an unserviceable state, then everyone has several years of looking at it parked there, as a constant reminder of just how badly Boeing screwed the pooch on this one.
If Starliner is stuck at the station that’s a disaster -
1) it blocks one of two docking ports 2) it’s not designed to live in space forever. As it’s condition decays it could welll endanger the station 3) one option is the emergency release - but this wrecks the docking port permanently. 4) even if you get if free of the station, the arm on the station isn’t powerful enough to shove it away, unpowered. 5) oh, and in act of genius NASA didn’t specify a grappling fixture that the arm could latch on to anyway.
The idea of Bill “Ballast” Nelson making the final decision has pulled this into high politics.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
It’s a WW1 type grind, with largely frozen lines rather than WW2 manoeuvre warfare isn’t it. I think 2023 taught the Ukrainians this and hence they’re now content to rope-a-dope the Russians and hope Trump doesn’t win. But this recent incursion is perhaps an insurance in case he does.
I can imagine a scenario in perhaps 2026, after another 18mths of attritional grind for Russia and preparation from Ukraine, where we see a 21st Century D Day, with a million drones launched in a night or something like that. A real shock and awe that collapses the Russian front. But none of us know whether a Kamala White House would allow such an attempt.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
It's not comparable I suggest.
The JSO comparisons need to be with the organisers of the riots, and even then there are unlikely to be such extensive background criminal records.
Yes, the hole-diggers will be outraged, but they are going to be outraged anyway as that, and building up a following of gullibles, is the thing they are constructing their political future on.
So the Tamworth hotel burning being somewhat organic means it is not as serious an event as organised action to climb the bridge at Dartford or superglue themselves to the North Circ.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The optics are only terrible because plenty of Celebs/MP's/Prominent people made absurd claims about the sentences (jailed for raising awareness on climate change/attending a zoom call etc etc) and ignored the Judges sentencing notes.
It is absolutely right the JSO mob got the sentences they got.
It is absolutely right the rioters are getting the sentences they are getting many of whom will be first offenders and not on bail unlike the middle class JSO lot.
That's the flaw with all this "two-tier" chat. It can be so easily inverted to make similarly nonsense comparisons with lefties going to jail for 5 years.
The basic idea that a first time arsonist or rioter should get a shorter sentence than someone organising disruption on a zoom call is not going to sit well with people, regardless all the underlying justification for that.
On the article below, I think an excerpt mus5 have been reprinted in the Guardian, the Intercept or somewhere similar, hence where it was rettweeted from me.
It really does make the lazy "two tier-Kier" moniker look rather ridiculous.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Perhaps this may be a good place for some of the people who post here to start. This is absolutely accurate based on my experience of Sunderand although they are doing something to improve the area. The Fire Station and around there is nice. There are development plans and the Fulwell studios will help.
This is simply the reality of life for many up and down the country.
They voted for Brexit to make their lives better.
They voted for levelling up.
Labour did nothing for these regions as people voted for them anyway and the Tories did little for them as they never voted for them. It is no wonder they listen to someone like Farage who, at least, tried to talk to them.
Rioting and damaging their own communities is ridiculous. There is precious little in them.
I hope whatever comes out of this they look at communities like this and what can be done to help revive them. Properly help and revive them as opposed to just creating Quango's and NGO's where the only people who benefit will be the political appointments parachuted into the well paid roles managing it who stay in a hotel during the week and jet back to London on Friday lunchtime.
It is a world away from the life of the well off looking down their noses at these people, be it North Dorset, France or wherever.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
The JSO zoomers were serial offenders with many convictions, on suspended sentences and some were even on bail for previous offences.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
Every time there is an eruption of far right thuggery or football hooliganism it comes to light that many of the offenders were comfortably middle class men in skilled trades or well paid office jobs. There's usually an investment banker or two thrown in. The sort of people who can afford a beered-up excursion to a trouble spot. I would be very surprised if the same isn't true this time.
Look at the demographics of Reform voters. Lower middle class for the most part. Not the left-behind or the underclass by any stretch.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
Not entirely impressive quote from HSE: “Our sympathies are with those who have lost loved ones to any work-related disease.
“Great Britain has a robust and well-established regulatory framework in place to protect workers from the health risks associated with exposure to hazardous substances.
“We continue to work with industry to raise awareness of managing the risks of exposure to respirable crystalline silica and we are considering options for future interventions to ensure workers are protected.”
Silicosis has been a known issue for c 200 years ... especially in Edinburgh stonemasons (the local sandstone was lethal).
My relative, who runs a building company and studied chemistry makes himself very unpopular in summer by enforcing masks, goggles and, where required, noddy suits.
It’s quite noticeable that he doesn’t have 25 year olds coughing like 60 year old,100 a day smokers.
Painting (especially woodwork) is one that gets forgotten. To get a nice, smooth finish, you fill. Then you sand, then you paint, sand etc.
On the article below, I think an excerpt mus5 have been reprinted in the Guardian, the Intercept or somewhere similar, hence where it was rettweeted from me.
It really does make the lazy "two tier-Kier" moniker look rather ridiculous.
I don't think that will bother the people making the moniker anymore than it bothered people calling Rishi Sunak "Richi".
If it gains traction and sticks that is all that will matter at the end of the day.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
Yep: it's currently an incredibly expensive stalemate. With Russia bearing many more costs than Ukraine right now, but also having greater resources to draw from.
For the war to end, I think at least one of two things need to happen:
(1) Regime change in Moscow or Kiev (2) Foreign support for Ukraine to dry up
Right now, Russia's hope is that a Trump victory leads to an end to US support for Ukraine. The nightmare for them would be if the Democrats were to regain the House, in which case more aid would likely flow in Kiev's direction.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
We don't police "by community" in this country. We police by individual.
It would be pretty dumb (not an impossible factor admittedly) if the police didn’t acknowledge the existence of communities and their part in policing. Afaics it’s the de facto if imperfect foundation of NI policing.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
The JSO zoomers were serial offenders with many convictions, on suspended sentences and some were even on bail for previous offences.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
If one agrees with the JSO sentences, the rioters sentences must look incredibly lenient.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
Yep: it's currently an incredibly expensive stalemate. With Russia bearing many more costs than Ukraine right now, but also having greater resources to draw from.
For the war to end, I think at least one of two things need to happen:
(1) Regime change in Moscow or Kiev (2) Foreign support for Ukraine to dry up
Right now, Russia's hope is that a Trump victory leads to an end to US support for Ukraine. The nightmare for them would be if the Democrats were to regain the House, in which case more aid would likely flow in Kiev's direction.
I have wondered to what extent Ukraine might keep up the fight even with the loss of US support? A lot depends on europe of course. But if their goal is to attrit attacking Russians rather than launch a knockout blow, perhaps it is still possible.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
The JSO zoomers were serial offenders with many convictions, on suspended sentences and some were even on bail for previous offences.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
Every time there is an eruption of far right thuggery or football hooliganism it comes to light that many of the offenders were comfortably middle class men in skilled trades or well paid office jobs. There's usually an investment banker or two thrown in. The sort of people who can afford a beered-up excursion to a trouble spot. I would be very surprised if the same isn't true this time.
Look at the demographics of Reform voters. Lower middle class for the most part. Not the left-behind or the underclass by any stretch.
I don't know about Far Right Thuggery but you are spot on with regards to Football Hooliganism. So you may be right about some of the elements at play here. I have said before it reminds me very much of football violence and I suspect some getting in on the action are fighting old battles and probably not even interested in the politics. Just happy to give Plod a kicking.
The BBC play/drama "The Firm" is eerily accurate (aside from Bexy being shot). My old boss many years back was a proud "Zulu" who used to go out fighting regularly at games. He was the FD in a medium sized manufacturing business.
I have know a few casuals in my time and they all fitted your description.
As for Reform voters, to be fair, it was those sneering at them and deciding they were stupid for daring to vote Reform that decided they were all stupid and from the underclass.
Multiple UN member states will buy that line completely. Expect a resolution penned by South Africa or Brazil shortly, condemning Ukraine for its imperialist aggression against Russia.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
Not entirely impressive quote from HSE: “Our sympathies are with those who have lost loved ones to any work-related disease.
“Great Britain has a robust and well-established regulatory framework in place to protect workers from the health risks associated with exposure to hazardous substances.
“We continue to work with industry to raise awareness of managing the risks of exposure to respirable crystalline silica and we are considering options for future interventions to ensure workers are protected.”
Silicosis has been a known issue for c 200 years ... especially in Edinburgh stonemasons (the local sandstone was lethal).
My relative, who runs a building company and studied chemistry makes himself very unpopular in summer by enforcing masks, goggles and, where required, noddy suits.
It’s quite noticeable that he doesn’t have 25 year olds coughing like 60 year old,100 a day smokers.
Painting (especially woodwork) is one that gets forgotten. To get a nice, smooth finish, you fill. Then you sand, then you paint, sand etc.
*Any* fine dust in your lungs is bad
Frsom the paper I cited:
"Silicosis attributed to AS was identified in 8 men with median age 34 years (range 27–56) at time of diagnosis, 75% were born outside the UK and 88% were current or previous smokers (table 1). [...]
Against medical advice, three cases continue to work with AS, and self-report reduced exposure to visible dust after introduction of powered respirators and water suppression. No cases were under RCS health surveillance.
All described working for small companies with fewer than 10 employees. None were involved in worktop manufacture or installation but carried out the ‘finishing’ process, specifically cutting and polishing the worktops before installation. They all reported that this was done without consistent water suppression, without what they felt was appropriate respiratory protection and that even where workshop ventilation was present, they stated that the system had not been serviced or cleaned regularly. None were aware of airborne dust monitoring in the workplace. Discussion
We report eight UK cases of AS silicosis in young men. Most were migrant workers, vulnerable to exploitation in the workplace and health inequalities,6 with short exposure histories. [...]
Putin calling any Ukrainian military actions provocations really is so brazen as to be unbelievable even for him.
The only reason it is believable is the non-Putins in the West who essentially agreed from the beginning that Ukraine defending themselves was provocative and shouldn't the fighting stop.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
The JSO zoomers were serial offenders with many convictions, on suspended sentences and some were even on bail for previous offences.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
If one agrees with the JSO sentences, the rioters sentences must look incredibly lenient.
Not when one has read the sentencing comments from the Judge in the former where they pleaded not guilty and the rioters pleaded guilty in the latter and got a major discount for that.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Drop 'seekyserv', and it's a deal.
I’m prepared to lose one of “seekyservs” or “sassytempt” but certainly not both
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
NATO would prefer Russia to lose after a long war rather than a short one. Putin seems willing to oblige.
Much of the Soviet-era stockpiles have gone. The Russian made ones are limited in numbers and poor in performance. Weaponry exports are way down (often due to delivery being delayed over the horizon; so why bother waiting for second rate options?). Most of the experienced troops have been eliminated or invalided out. Those who would normally train new recruits likewise. The Black Sea fleet has either been sunk or legged it. Crimea's airfields are within range of Ukrainian missiles and are subject to systematic destruction. Airfields up to 2,000km from the front have been hit. The Russian oil industry is being trashed by these same cheap and cheerful drones, with as much as 20% of its capacity down. Interest rates are at 18%. The rail network is close to collapse. 3 million Russians have left Russia, with no desire to return whilst ever there is a risk of being rounded up and sent to the front with wooden sticks and a week of training.
A long war? There's a limit to how long this war goes on.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Drop 'seekyserv', and it's a deal.
I’m prepared to lose one of “seekyservs” or “sassytempt” but certainly not both
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
a) You specifically defended him yesterday for linking to an anti-Semitic account. You seemed to think it unreasonable for him to spend 30 seconds checking.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
Offensive operations appear to be incredibly hard in this war. The Russian summer advance appears to have completely petered out, while Ukrainian forces have captured a couple of villages.
The amount of territory changing hands is absolutely minute. During the 2023 counter-offensive fuck up Ukraine gained about 500 sq km.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
Yep: it's currently an incredibly expensive stalemate. With Russia bearing many more costs than Ukraine right now, but also having greater resources to draw from.
For the war to end, I think at least one of two things need to happen:
(1) Regime change in Moscow or Kiev (2) Foreign support for Ukraine to dry up
Right now, Russia's hope is that a Trump victory leads to an end to US support for Ukraine. The nightmare for them would be if the Democrats were to regain the House, in which case more aid would likely flow in Kiev's direction.
I have wondered to what extent Ukraine might keep up the fight even with the loss of US support? A lot depends on europe of course. But if their goal is to attrit attacking Russians rather than launch a knockout blow, perhaps it is still possible.
Oh, I think they will try to keep it up. It helps, of course, that Ukraine can probably accept the current situation at any point they choose.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
Be very careful when you are comparing sentences.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years 45 months reduced to 30 months 30 months reduced to 20 months.
The JSO zoomers were serial offenders with many convictions, on suspended sentences and some were even on bail for previous offences.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
If one agrees with the JSO sentences, the rioters sentences must look incredibly lenient.
The rioters pleaded Guilty so got 1/3 off their sentences - JSO didn't so got the full sentences.
All I'm seeing from comments like yours (and similar ones yesterday) is that reporting of sentences is poor and needs to be clearer and all sentencing statements should be kept online..
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
We don't police "by community" in this country. We police by individual.
It would be pretty dumb (not an impossible factor admittedly) if the police didn’t acknowledge the existence of communities and their part in policing. Afaics it’s the de facto if imperfect foundation of NI policing.
1. Nasty far right thugs are targeting mosques and the like - police must react - yes good
2. They go to Muslim communities and seek to reassure them - yes good
3. The police and Muslims agree there might be a far right protest and the Muslims are worried - police further reassure them - yes, good
4. The Muslim “community leaders” say “no we don’t want police here we will sort it all out for ourselves if there’s any trouble - police say Yes sure ok we’ll leave you to it - ABSOLUTELY NOT
This is an open invitation to vigilante violence AND a massive fight between opposed factions. It is the opposite of police work - it is removing the authority of the law
Moreover the police already had plentiful evidence of “counter protestors” being really violent. Those guys hit with hammers. So they knew that stepping back for hours was a massive risk and could see whites being beaten up - and so it was. An abject failure
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
It's not comparable I suggest.
The JSO comparisons need to be with the organisers of the riots, and even then there are unlikely to be such extensive background criminal records.
Yes, the hole-diggers will be outraged, but they are going to be outraged anyway as that, and building up a following of gullibles, is the thing they are constructing their political future on.
So the Tamworth hotel burning being somewhat organic means it is not as serious an event as organised action to climb the bridge at Dartford or superglue themselves to the North Circ.
I don't want to diminish JSO, but wow!
I deleted the second half of my argument - sorry. I think it's fair to observe that there are organisers and foot soldiers, that there crimes are of different kinds, and I think we will see plenty of long sentences.
That comparison of the case of arson as a proxy for everything to property damage or climbing a bridge is yours, and I think simplistic.
(Do you have a link to the Tamworth Hotel arson case if that has been sentenced yet?)
We have a trial process and sentencing guidelines for arson which will be applied, depending on the action, the consequences, the circumstances (individual, affray, riot) and the defendant. Similarly for all the other crimes.
I think that "Just Wow" is a more appropriate comment when you say you don't want to "minimise JSO", yet that is precisely what you do. You reduce an action which caused, for example, a man with aggressive cancer to not be able to get his treatment, to 'supergluing locks'. That comparison sucks.
We have organisers, hard core activists, and hangers-on / just decided to turn up. I'd compare Hallam and Co to the first of these groups - not the others. And I think that is valid.
Martyn Ziegler @martynziegler Rodri and Morata banned for one match each by UEFA for ‘Gibraltar is Spanish’ chants
Hmmm, UEFA have created an unfortunate precedent there, I suspect people in Serbia/Kosovo/Albania will take notice.
Instead of feigning injury when there's a friendly they can't be arsed with, perhaps our lads could simply lay claim to Calais in future when they want the night off?
'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.
"Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.
This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.
It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.
Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
This really isn't a difficult point - I'll try again. You don't need to have any support for, or 'understanding of' the riots - you could want the rioters locked up and the key thrown away. But if you then witness scenes of criminality in counterprotest groups, as we have witnessed, it is likely, I would say overwhelmingly likely, that you will also want those wrongdoers locked up and the key thrown away. And if you see them escaping arrest, curbs, or even censure from the authorities, including SKS, then the phrase Two Tier Keir becomes a damaging one.
Intel potentially has a faster route to recovery, I think.
I'm not so sure about that one. Boeing has a major advantage, airlines have nowhere else to go. Airbus' production is booked up for years, abandoning Boeing means a 5-10 year wait for new aircraft. So the incentive is for Boeing's customers to be patient and hope they get their problems sorted out.
Intel doesn't have such a luxury. AMD is TSMC's second biggest customer behind Apple, they can secure more fab capacity when they need it. Any big OEM looking to switch their product mix more toward AMD can do that quite easily. And if that happens on any major scale it screws Intel badly, their vertically integrated business model becomes a financial millstone if low sales mean they cannot keep their fabs working at capacity. Fabs cost incredible amounts of money to build, maintain and upgrade.
Intel is also still trying to climb out of the multi-year nightmare caused by their disastrous 10nm process. Even the current 14th gen processors are still made on an improved version of 10nm, which results in a large process disadvantage vs AMD's products. In a vain effort to keep up with AMD Intel has had to pump so much voltage through their higher-end chips it is causing many of those parts to degrade and die in as little as a few months.
Then, finally, Intel has a significant technical debt in terms of packaging vs AMD. Years ago AMD pushed ahead with multi-chip packaging (aka Chiplets), that has paid off spectacularly. Chiplets reduce costs, improve yields and give increased configuration flexibility.
I honestly think survival is Intel's realistic goal right now. They're bleeding desktop and server share to AMD and slowly losing share in laptops. Their GPU business is a miserable money pit that has achieved a market share below 1%, their programmable logic business has been spun out as Altera presumably in preparation for a sale. There are no bright spots right now for Intel.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as @KonstantinKisin has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
Although I get Goodwin's point (and have read his book which he so unsubtly plugs), he keeps thinking he isn't part of the elite, and that the elite are the left-wing and the right is the insurgency. I hate to bang on about this, but it's more a case of one set of elites criticising another set of elites courtesy of elite overproduction (see Turchin).
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
“I am self-declaring as a “community leader” for white English people.
From now on, if the police want to manage protests, I demand they speak to me and any other self identified community leaders.
I will tell the police what style will be suitable for our protests.
I’m guessing everyone is okay with this. I’m assuming I don’t need to be elected either?
If it’s acceptable for Birmingham, then it’s acceptable for the rest of us. Equality means equality.”
You've got a load of racist asshats rioting. It just so happens that on this occasion, those asshats are majority-white. The targets are tending to be non-whites. I'd argue it makes sense to talk to the victims / targets of those asshats, and ensure that a) they will feel safer; b) get feedback from them on what would make them feel safe; and c) try to convince them not to take the law into their own hands in 'self-defence'.
It Alex Harmstong wants to represent racist asshats, let him. But you know what that would make him.
Just so we’re clear. You’re cool with the authorities letting one group in society “self police” by roaming the streets in hoods with machetes and clubs?
No; but I don't think that is what he was saying.
Just so we're clear: You're cool with racist asshats trying to kill immigrants?
No of course I’m not. When have I ever given the impression that I am? But I am pretty uneasy that authorities seem to be selectively surrendering our streets to mob rule.
It’s been such a failure of comms this whole thing. It’s easy. “The only division we recognise in our society is between the law abiding and criminality.”
You seem *very* keen to divert the blame for this mess off the asshats who are doing it and onto 'others'.
I'd argue the only 'failure in comms' is people making misrepresenting stuff up and making stuff up.
Anyone who is using violence or the threat of violence to intimidate others, needs removing from society for a very long time. It’s not complicated JJ.
Who, in your view, is instigating this violence?
Does it matter? Taking to the streets with a weapon is not justifiable under any circumstance. Let law enforcement deal with it, vigilantes will just make things worse and innocent people will get hurt just like that guy who's now in hospital with a lacerated liver after being targeted by a Muslim gang for the heinous crime of going to the pub.
People on this thread are shitting on a police officer for daring to talk to *victim* communities from this violence, in part to stop them from counter-protesting. Do you find that odd?
And it needs to be clear: the victims of this violence are generally the immigrant communities, *not* the racist asshats who are 'protesting'. If those racist asshats went home and wanked heir little dicks, there would be none of this particular violence.
They're talking to "community leaders" or "community elders" and coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away.
So you're basically saying yes, it's fine that there's a bloke sitting in hospital with a lacerated liver because he went to the pub and a gang of Muslim youths took exception to it.
I don't want the fascists on the street and I don't want vigilante Muslims on the street. It doesn't matter who started what at this point, anyone causing violence, walking around with knives or threatening people needs to be dealt with immediately and without sympathy. Get the violence off the streets and perpetrators in jail.
"... coming up with accepted or agreed policing tactics, one of which was to allow young men armed with knives chase a TV camera crew away." Do you have evidence for the claim that this 'tactic' was agreed by the police?
As for your last paragraph: it's quite simple. If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'. And if those white racist asshats went home and the vigilantes are still there, they get arrested for that.
But you are looking at the tiny problem and ignoring the massive white racist elephants in the room.
And BTW, many of the communities threatened by the white racists asshats are not Muslim. They might even threaten your community as well, as you're an 'immigrant' (even if you were born here, apparently...)
But it doesn't matter who started what at this point, you don't get it. I want all of the violent thugs off the streets, they are now perpetuating each other. Having Muslims with knives walking around the streets makes me feel no more safe than white fascists walking around the streets with knives. As a brown person I want the rioting to stop, the violence to stop and for anyone causing any violence to be arrested an dealt with.
I don't have a side in this, I just don't want my wife to get stabbed by some Muslim thug who takes exception to her being white and Jewish and I don't want myself to get stabbed by some fascist who takes exception to me being Indian. Get them all off the streets regardless of their "motivation". There is simply no justification for anyone to be walking around the streets with weapons threatening people, regardless of their racial background or religion. Let the law enforcement get their job done.
I do get it. I absolutely get it.
But they are not perpetuating each other; that's just an excuse for the right-wing white asshats. And neither is the scale of it the same.
The victims in this are the immigrant communities. Including yours.
If you were in the UK, and the community of you and your family was being attacked by white right-wing asshats, what would you do? Would you like the police to come and tell you what they're doing, and so you can tell them your fears? Or would you do something more?
No you don't know because you know what my "community" are doing? Staying indoors and waiting for the police to arrest the thugs. Do you see any Hindus or Sikhs out there with knives threatening people? Of course not, we're waiting for the police to do their jobs and get the violent thugs off the streets.
You seem to be condoning violent acts by vigilantes and I don't understand why?
No, I;m not. You seem to be desperate to divert attention away from the right-wing asshates that have started, and continue to start, this mess, and I don't understand why?
Max seems desperate for asshats of all colours and creeds who break the law to be arrested.
There's no excuses for any of them. The Police need to do their job.
Criminals on the streets with knives are criminals on the streets with knives. There's been knife crime in this country for a lot longer than a week.
And AIUI the person in question was arrested. In which case, job jobbed.
But I do wonder why people are so keen to excuse, reduce and condone the right-wing (white) asshates?
I'm not and neither is Max that I see. He's been calling on them to be arrested and quite rightly too.
Yes, but all of his anger seems to be on the Muslim guy. This *one* guy is getting so much airtime, whilst the white right-wing asshates who tried to set fire to a hotel with immigrants in are quietly ignored. Despite their crimes being so much bigger in scale.
Every single post of this conversation I can see Max has said that the Police need to target everyone.
Its you, not Max, that seems obsessed with whataboutery or making excuses like "If the white racist asshats stopped rioting and threatening communities, then those communities wouldn't need 'vigilantes'"
Nobody in the UK needs vigilantes. Anyone threatening people is breaking the law and should be arrested.
I don't disagree; but I think you are somewhat selectively quoting there.
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates. *) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates. *) There has been very little violence in the other direction. *) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd. *) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
If nothing else, can you please stop saying “racist asshates” and “Musky baby”. It is so inter-galactically CRINGE I am worried you might inadvertently cause a singularity and implode the solar system
Point one. Stop reading Sean Thomas in the Spectator.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
I don't want to misrepresent the sentiments of our own X. Trapnel but I believe it's the agonisingly unfunny and inept nature of the slight rather than the traduction itself which forms the basis of the objection.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
Watch this. Basically the complex militarg equipment is nearly exhausted. The cannon fodder are considered inexhaustible by Putin.
Perhaps that is true, perhaps he is over confident in how secure his domestic position is.
Lol at motorbikes and unarmoured golf buggies replacing APCs on the front lines. They really do treat their own personnel as cannon fodder.
There is certainly a case for the Russian High Command to face charges in Russia when they lose this war. The absolute contempt for the lives of Ukrainian civilians and even the lives of their own soldiers is despicable and ultimately criminal.
I am sure Musk will be complaining about two tier justice.
There is a good reason why the JSO zoomers got such a long sentence but the optics are terrible. We're going to have people trying to burn asylum seeks alive with shorter sentences.
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
It's not comparable I suggest.
The JSO comparisons need to be with the organisers of the riots, and even then there are unlikely to be such extensive background criminal records.
Yes, the hole-diggers will be outraged, but they are going to be outraged anyway as that, and building up a following of gullibles, is the thing they are constructing their political future on.
So the Tamworth hotel burning being somewhat organic means it is not as serious an event as organised action to climb the bridge at Dartford or superglue themselves to the North Circ.
I don't want to diminish JSO, but wow!
I deleted the second half of my argument - sorry. I think it's fair to observe that there are organisers and foot soldiers, that there crimes are of different kinds, and I think we will see plenty of long sentences.
That comparison of the case of arson as a proxy for everything to property damage or climbing a bridge is yours, and I think simplistic.
(Do you have a link to the Tamworth Hotel arson case if that has been sentenced yet?)
We have a trial process and sentencing guidelines for arson which will be applied, depending on the action, the consequences, the circumstances (individual, affray, riot) and the defendant. Similarly for all the other crimes.
I think that "Just Wow" is a more appropriate comment when you say you don't want to "minimise JSO", yet that is precisely what you do. You reduce an action which caused, for example, a man with aggressive cancer to not be able to get his treatment, to 'supergluing locks'. That comparison sucks.
We have organisers, hard core activists, and hangers-on / just decided to turn up. I'd compare Hallam and Co to the first of these groups - not the others. And I think that is valid.
Only 3 rioters have been sentenced so far - the 3 today who went for early guilty pleas..
Which means they sentences are the lowest possible. worth pointing out the even no previous convictions does not give you a suspended sentence.
What do people think about the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast?
Suggestions from Russian military blogger channels that the Ukrainians are making continuing advances, destroying Russian equipment and taking prisoners.
There's also a video of what purports to be the first helicopters downed by a FPV drone over Kursk.
People seem to think Ukraine are trying to claim this territory so it can be swapped for Ukrainian territory held by Russia.
I just don't see that; Ukrainian-backed forces have made quick incursions into Russia several times, and retreated each time. A quick raid lasting a couple of days is very different from holding territory.
So if not that, then what? I reckon it's simply opportunistic: Russia are so desperately short of troops that they a large area of their border relatively undefended, and Ukraine have decided to embarrass Russia at relatively cheap cost. Also, it may force Russia to move better troops to these border areas, reducing their capabilities in Ukraine. And the more material Ukraine manages to capture or destroy in the process, the better.
There's actually video of the PFV helicopter takedown, so I think it happened. I just don't know if it was over Kursk.
There was also an assault on the Russian airbase at Morozovsk, 250km from Ukraine, over the weekend, probably from Ukranian drones.
At least one fighter plane destroyed, two damaged, and one very large missile storage facility going up like a firework factory. The missiles for the aircraft are rare and expensive.
Yet still Russia seem to keep coming. They have a very deep back catalogue of military equipment and cannon fodder, it seems. Quite a contrast from the first year of the war when things generally seemed to culminate after a few weeks of effort.
Jenrick is playing a dangerous game, accusing Starmer of double standards over policing.
No-one's produced any concrete evidence of thst so far , and it potentialky plays into Musk's Trumpian narrative.
Rather than taking shots at Musk, why don’t you head over to his platform and see the evidence for yourself? If you prefer, you can try Sky News instead, where you will find similar evidence.
Coming from someone who didn't have the gumption to look at the account that he linked to as a credibility check. And this is not the first time. Sometimes ago you were pulled up on linking to an account that turned out to be a QAnon post. In both cases it took less than 30 seconds to drill down on the accounts to identify the facts.
This debate has gone to cuckoo land. You don’t have to go to Twitter if you don’t want to. Because the Birmingham police chief has confirmed with his own voice, on Sky News no less, that policing approaches are vastly different depending on background of the mob. His testimony is backed up by the lack of blue lights for hours at Yardley, but also for example the video of the copper kindly advising people to “leave their weapons at the mosque”.
The appropriate conversation, which some have already cordially begun here, is not whether we have two tier policing, but whether that is sensible and appropriate in some cases. I am open to being persuaded that it is but my gut feel is that in the long run, it is grievously misadvised.
You meanwhile are still at the childish tantrum stage of throwing QAnon slurs around.
I'm not talking about that point. I'm talking about the fact that you suggested that someone should go to Musk's account to find out the facts. That is coming from someone who yesterday thought it reasonable for Musk to link to an account that was beyond appalling and would be a criminal offence in this country and thought it reasonable for him not to make a 30 second check on the credibility of the account he was linking to before making the link.
I am also referring to you, who a year or two ago linked to a QAnon account and didn't spend 30 seconds checking it out before doing so and posted the contents as fact.
That is not a slur that is a fact and if you think otherwise sue me.
Why am I having the 'childish tantrum'? Well because I object to people posting QAnon stuff here or who justify the posting of links to appallingly racist and anti-semitic accounts that were beyond awful, they would be illegal here.
I take it that you still haven't even looked at the account still, but twice now have been happy to take stuff on face value whereas a 30 second check would show you have gone down a very nasty rabbit hole.
I said “Musk’s platform”, not Musk’s account.
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
a) You specifically defended him yesterday for linking to an anti-Semitic account. You seemed to think it unreasonable for him to spend 30 seconds checking.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
Yet it was beyond you to do so.
I have not forwarded anything racist. I linked to something that it turns out is relatively non-controversial that Musk re-tweeted, originally posted by someone that you say has also in the past posted racist material. I believe you. Get over it.
Comments
Though I expect this wasn't a first offence for many either.
@GoodwinMJ
The reason the UK's elite class is so hostile to Elon Musk and other dissenters is because they can sense they are losing control of the narrative and the conversation.
We are simply no longer in a world where the national conversation and what is considered "true" can be controlled by the same groups of people --who come from the same backgrounds, have the same values, the same political loyalties, and want the same outcomes.
That era, when the elite class dominate what used to be the most important and influential institutions, is over. It is done. And, as
@KonstantinKisin
has rightly noted, it is never coming back. We are in a new era.
As I wrote in a book last year, many people in the West are rapidly giving up on "a national conversation" that no longer reflects their values, their voice, and which considers some groups in society, usually minority groups, to be more virtuous than others.
The elite class could have responded to this trend by opening themselves up; they chose to the opposite while also attacking anybody who questioned their consensus along the way."
https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1821135791076102203
I'll put it this way:
*) This mess was started by right-wing white asshates.
*) The vast majority of the violence was in one direction; from the right-wing asshates.
*) There has been very little violence in the other direction.
*) Concentrating on the violence in the other direction seems odd.
*) Claiming that a case of that violence in the other direction was not dealt with, when it was, is even odder.
In fact, it looks a little like trying to say that the victims are as bad as the asshates. Which is classic whataboutery, and *not* what I am doing.
My gut is that Ukraine lacks the capacity to drive the Russians out.
The Russians, though, have at least as big problem, which is that merely occupying Ukrainian territory is incredibly expensive, both financially and in terms of manpower and materiel. There have been stories circulating about Russian units refusing to advance, which suggests serious issues with the military.
Here's the thing: why would Ukraine take a peace deal now, while they are continuing to inflict serious casualties on the Russians at relatively modest costs to themselves? What's the incentive?
*Pls don't ban me
Isn't it simply that Matt Goodwin would rather the elite class consisted of him, Nigel Farage, Elon Musk and Suella Braverman?
You're far better off with 538. And Harris is leading there by nearly 2 points...
Perhaps we can come to a PB compromise on "three-tier Keir"?
By contrast, in Michigan, there was no house price boom (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore people have been much less affected by rising interest rates,
Did Musk first start hating Britain when a British diver refused his offer to save people trapped in a cave in Thailand? Anyway he can fuck off the fucking weirdo.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro
How inconvenient for the narrative.
BTW his social media feeds at present are a bollocks-firehose.
https://x.com/rothschildmd/status/1820857633932476707
So while you may have a big expensive mortgage the only impact is if people move or otherwise have to remortgage. It's not like the UK where people take 2 or 5 year deals and need to remortgage at the end of them to get another decent rate.
https://news.sky.com/story/three-men-jailed-in-first-crown-court-sentences-over-rioting-after-southport-attack-13192357#:~:text=Three men have been jailed,quick punishment for those involved.
seems too short compared to the other two.
The arsonist(s) at the Manvers hotel will likely get longer than the JSO bods as obviously a whole hotel can't get out as quickly as police officers can from a van (Please note I am not saying it's right to arson a police van !). I'd be inclined to 15 years for the Manvers arsonists if I was a judge.
It would also make the Iraqi flag illegal?
But in any case why do I need to look at the posting history of someone on Twitter, to be able to see clearly that we’ve got a pretty interesting approach to law enforcement and sentencing in this country. If you found content you believe to be illegal then report it.
I don’t know much about QAnon, I have the gist that it’s something to do with Hillary Clinton eating babies in a pizzeria? Bit of an odd fixation for you to hold on to for so long but you do you.
I was wondering if the song was about a martyr (did Joan of Arc have oil?), but St Laurence the Human Waffle was the closest I can find. The ruler of Rome demanded the 'wealth of the church', so St Laurence gave it all away to the poor, then:
As a deacon in Rome, Lawrence was responsible for the material goods of the Church and the distribution of alms to the poor. Ambrose of Milan related that when the treasures of the Church were demanded of Lawrence by the prefect of Rome, he brought forward the poor, to whom he had distributed the treasure as alms. "Behold in these poor persons the treasures which I promised to show you; to which I will add pearls and precious stones, those widows and consecrated virgins, which are the Church's crown." The prefect was so angry that he had a great gridiron prepared with hot coals beneath it and had Lawrence placed on it, hence Lawrence's association with the gridiron. After the martyr had suffered pain for a long time, the legend concludes, he cheerfully declared: "I'm well done on this side. Turn me over!" From this, St. Lawrence derives his patronage of cooks, chefs, and comedians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence
I suspect @MrBedfordshire can tell us how accurate this account is to the actual legend.
The JSO zoomers claimed to be innocent.
The Southport / Liverpool rioters pleaded guilty at the very first instance so got 1/3 off their sentences so they were to begin with
54 months reduced to 3 years
45 months reduced to 30 months
30 months reduced to 20 months.
In the past year Russia has taken about 1,500 sq km. These are tiny areas compared to the size of the theatre.
I have no idea what any fucker's strategic objective is now because anything radically different than the status quo probably isn't achievable without the political collapse of the Kiev/Moscow regimes first.
I don’t particularly trust American polling, given the lack of an independent regulator, a long record of push polling and leading questions, and that they’ve got so many recent elections completely wrong. The betting average shows where people are putting actual money down.
Except on the odd occasion he turns up with the money.
Watch this. Basically the complex militarg equipment is nearly exhausted. The cannon fodder are considered inexhaustible by Putin.
Perhaps that is true, perhaps he is over confident in how secure his domestic position is.
The JSO comparisons need to be with the organisers of the riots, and even then there are unlikely to be such extensive background criminal records.
Yes, the hole-diggers will be outraged, but they are going to be outraged anyway as that, and building up a following of gullibles, is the thing they are constructing their political future on.
It is absolutely right the JSO mob got the sentences they got.
It is absolutely right the rioters are getting the sentences they are getting many of whom will be first offenders and not on bail unlike the middle class JSO lot.
These are now coming to an end, and people - like in the UK - are being hammered.
There's also a secondary effect, and that is that higher interest rates are simply a negative for house prices. And prices have fallen, especially in new developments on the edges of Phoenix and Las Vegas, and many people are effectively trapped with negative equity. The wealth effect is very defintely negative for these people, even as their disposable income has been squeezed by prices rising faster than incomes.
A tiny gain for a massive loss of personnel.
https://x.com/MikeKoncewicz/status/1821012351870443620
Rahm Emanuel on Tim Walz in 2006
"No, he has no money, no nothing."
Googke "Starmer and Spycops" by Morgan Paulett.
Obviously as they are middle class and campaigning on Climate Change they are bound to be seen as victims and looked upon favourably by some here.
1) it blocks one of two docking ports
2) it’s not designed to live in space forever. As it’s condition decays it could welll endanger the station
3) one option is the emergency release - but this wrecks the docking port permanently.
4) even if you get if free of the station, the arm on the station isn’t powerful enough to shove it away, unpowered.
5) oh, and in act of genius NASA didn’t specify a grappling fixture that the arm could latch on to anyway.
The idea of Bill “Ballast” Nelson making the final decision has pulled this into high politics.
He’s well known to be a stanch Boeing man.
I can imagine a scenario in perhaps 2026, after another 18mths of attritional grind for Russia and preparation from Ukraine, where we see a 21st Century D Day, with a million drones launched in a night or something like that. A real shock and awe that collapses the Russian front. But none of us know whether a Kamala White House would allow such an attempt.
I don't want to diminish JSO, but wow!
The basic idea that a first time arsonist or rioter should get a shorter sentence than someone organising disruption on a zoom call is not going to sit well with people, regardless all the underlying justification for that.
It really does make the lazy "two tier-Kier" moniker look rather ridiculous.
Time to give up on the Android postings..
This is simply the reality of life for many up and down the country.
They voted for Brexit to make their lives better.
They voted for levelling up.
Labour did nothing for these regions as people voted for them anyway and the Tories did little for them as they never voted for them. It is no wonder they listen to someone like Farage who, at least, tried to talk to them.
Rioting and damaging their own communities is ridiculous. There is precious little in them.
I hope whatever comes out of this they look at communities like this and what can be done to help revive them. Properly help and revive them as opposed to just creating Quango's and NGO's where the only people who benefit will be the political appointments parachuted into the well paid roles managing it who stay in a hotel during the week and jet back to London on Friday lunchtime.
It is a world away from the life of the well off looking down their noses at these people, be it North Dorset, France or wherever.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/the-english-high-street-sunderland-i-wasn-t-surprised-by-the-riots/ar-AA1oleOT?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=fbc86c938cb94d92b41b817c0b63e26f&ei=37
Look at the demographics of Reform voters. Lower middle class for the most part. Not the left-behind or the underclass by any stretch.
Putin accuses Ukraine of 'provocation' amid alleged border incursion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2n9y4nm3lo
It’s quite noticeable that he doesn’t have 25 year olds coughing like 60 year old,100 a day smokers.
Painting (especially woodwork) is one that gets forgotten. To get a nice, smooth finish, you fill. Then you sand, then you paint, sand etc.
*Any* fine dust in your lungs is bad
If it gains traction and sticks that is all that will matter at the end of the day.
For the war to end, I think at least one of two things need to happen:
(1) Regime change in Moscow or Kiev
(2) Foreign support for Ukraine to dry up
Right now, Russia's hope is that a Trump victory leads to an end to US support for Ukraine. The nightmare for them would be if the Democrats were to regain the House, in which case more aid would likely flow in Kiev's direction.
https://www.gov.uk/police-community-support-officers-what-they-are#:~:text=Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs) work with police officers and,the same powers as police.
https://www.scotland.police.uk/your-community/
The BBC play/drama "The Firm" is eerily accurate (aside from Bexy being shot). My old boss many years back was a proud "Zulu" who used to go out fighting regularly at games. He was the FD in a medium sized manufacturing business.
I have know a few casuals in my time and they all fitted your description.
As for Reform voters, to be fair, it was those sneering at them and deciding they were stupid for daring to vote Reform that decided they were all stupid and from the underclass.
"Silicosis attributed to AS was identified in 8 men with median age 34 years (range 27–56) at time of diagnosis, 75% were born outside the UK and 88% were current or previous smokers (table 1). [...]
Against medical advice, three cases continue to work with AS, and self-report reduced exposure to visible dust after introduction of powered respirators and water suppression. No cases were under RCS health surveillance.
All described working for small companies with fewer than 10 employees. None were involved in worktop manufacture or installation but carried out the ‘finishing’ process, specifically cutting and polishing the worktops before installation. They all reported that this was done without consistent water suppression, without what they felt was appropriate respiratory protection and that even where workshop ventilation was present, they stated that the system had not been serviced or cleaned regularly. None were aware of airborne dust monitoring in the workplace.
Discussion
We report eight UK cases of AS silicosis in young men. Most were migrant workers, vulnerable to exploitation in the workplace and health inequalities,6 with short exposure histories. [...]
The only reason it is believable is the non-Putins in the West who essentially agreed from the beginning that Ukraine defending themselves was provocative and shouldn't the fighting stop.
Point two. The solar system will not implode if Jessop diminishes Musk on a political blog.
Not when one has read the sentencing comments from the Judge in the former where they pleaded not guilty and the rioters pleaded guilty in the latter and got a major discount for that.
YOUR CALL
A long war? There's a limit to how long this war goes on.
b) There is not a case of believing it to be illegal. It is illegal. There is nothing one can do about it here. But presumably you still haven't looked even though you defended him for linking to it. Your lack of curiosity on stuff you defend is amazing. You defended him linking to the account.
c) You specifically linked to a QAnon post sometime ago believing the post to be accurate without checking. Something that took the rest of us 30 seconds to do. Nobody else here I believe has as ever done that with the exception of Plato.
d) The fixation is the fact that twice now you have either linked to or justified the posting of something either of a blatant conspiracy nature or appallingly racists. Your excuse both times was that you didn't check. Something that would have taken you 30 seconds to do in both cases.
You must have seen others reactions to it yesterday. Several people replied to you. @Viewcode said to you 'You don't have to read back far down the history of the meme poster, just a few flicks down. It took me a second to realise what was happening'
Yet it was beyond you to do so.
West Brom sign a player called Dobbin. Just 10 more donkeys and we'll have a first team.
All I'm seeing from comments like yours (and similar ones yesterday) is that reporting of sentences is poor and needs to be clearer and all sentencing statements should be kept online..
1. Nasty far right thugs are targeting mosques and the like - police must react - yes good
2. They go to Muslim communities and seek to reassure them - yes good
3. The police and Muslims agree there might be a far right protest and the Muslims are worried - police further reassure them - yes, good
4. The Muslim “community leaders” say “no we don’t want police here we will sort it all out for ourselves if there’s any trouble - police say Yes sure ok we’ll leave you to it - ABSOLUTELY NOT
This is an open invitation to vigilante violence AND a massive fight between opposed factions. It is the opposite of police work - it is removing the authority of the law
Moreover the police already had plentiful evidence of “counter protestors” being really violent. Those guys hit with hammers. So they knew that stepping back for hours was a massive risk and could see whites being beaten up - and so it was. An abject failure
That comparison of the case of arson as a proxy for everything to property damage or climbing a bridge is yours, and I think simplistic.
(Do you have a link to the Tamworth Hotel arson case if that has been sentenced yet?)
We have a trial process and sentencing guidelines for arson which will be applied, depending on the action, the consequences, the circumstances (individual, affray, riot) and the defendant. Similarly for all the other crimes.
I think that "Just Wow" is a more appropriate comment when you say you don't want to "minimise JSO", yet that is precisely what you do. You reduce an action which caused, for example, a man with aggressive cancer to not be able to get his treatment, to 'supergluing locks'. That comparison sucks.
We have organisers, hard core activists, and hangers-on / just decided to turn up. I'd compare Hallam and Co to the first of these groups - not the others. And I think that is valid.
Intel doesn't have such a luxury. AMD is TSMC's second biggest customer behind Apple, they can secure more fab capacity when they need it. Any big OEM looking to switch their product mix more toward AMD can do that quite easily. And if that happens on any major scale it screws Intel badly, their vertically integrated business model becomes a financial millstone if low sales mean they cannot keep their fabs working at capacity. Fabs cost incredible amounts of money to build, maintain and upgrade.
Intel is also still trying to climb out of the multi-year nightmare caused by their disastrous 10nm process. Even the current 14th gen processors are still made on an improved version of 10nm, which results in a large process disadvantage vs AMD's products. In a vain effort to keep up with AMD Intel has had to pump so much voltage through their higher-end chips it is causing many of those parts to degrade and die in as little as a few months.
Then, finally, Intel has a significant technical debt in terms of packaging vs AMD. Years ago AMD pushed ahead with multi-chip packaging (aka Chiplets), that has paid off spectacularly. Chiplets reduce costs, improve yields and give increased configuration flexibility.
I honestly think survival is Intel's realistic goal right now. They're bleeding desktop and server share to AMD and slowly losing share in laptops. Their GPU business is a miserable money pit that has achieved a market share below 1%, their programmable logic business has been spun out as Altera presumably in preparation for a sale. There are no bright spots right now for Intel.
We are shattering into pieces and reassembling into transnational tribes, not compatriots of a nation-state. This is why Musk teases Starmer, Jenrick says he will vote for Trump, Farage and Truss bugger off to the States, and that GOP idiot banged on about British immigration.
Which means they sentences are the lowest possible. worth pointing out the even no previous convictions does not give you a suspended sentence.