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Sofa so good, Tim Walz is an inspired pick – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,159
edited August 26 in General
imageSofa so good, Tim Walz is an inspired pick – politicalbetting.com

Walz: And I got to tell you, I can't wait to debate the guy. That is if he's willing to get off the couch and show up. pic.twitter.com/sz7qkFIFFg

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited August 7
    I hope you all spot the subtle pun in the headline.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044
    edited August 7
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hope you all spot the subtle pun in the headline.

    I have spotted no subtle pun in the headline.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401
    bondegezou said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hope you all spot the subtle puns in the headline.

    I have spotted no subtle pun in the headline.
    You missed out the R in the last word
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362
    I hope in one thread you can work in "The Last Walz"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,549
    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    bondegezou said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hope you all spot the subtle pun in the headline.

    I have spotted no subtle pun in the headline.
    If I were you I'd be chairful about pissing off TSE.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Good morning, everyone.

    Glad I didn't back Shapiro, which is something I was considering.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,982
    @EdKrassen

    No joke. The Kamala Harris campaign posted this on Truth Social.

    You know Trump has to be fuming.

    https://x.com/EdKrassen/status/1820975815074746534
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    edited August 7
    (Deleted)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    I suppose the risk with performances like that is he might overshadow Harris, who is as far as I've ever seen a somewhat drier, more thoughtful speaker.

    But as long as he doesn't get personally ambitious I suppose that may not matter.

    If he does keep doing it, might a flipped ticket be on the table?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    I read this as couch Walz....
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    This sort of comms style will so hit the spot in Middle America…

    https://x.com/A_Siegel/status/1820817024240549923

    I could see him putting Iowa in play.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    HERESY!!!!

    (IMO there is no one *good* map projection; they all have advantages and disadvantages. A bit like voting systems. Except AV, of course, which is ideal. Can we have a thread on AV please?)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,678
    If this is true - that the rioters are also anti-semetic in intent - then that could really put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/06/far-right-forums-used-to-plan-riots-now-encouraging-antisemitic-attacks

    In that case the British Right would radically have to reassess its position. Getting behind people it can portray as lost, frustrated souls with a genuine grievance is one thing; sucking up to evil jew-haters - the minority its gone out of its way to champion in recent times - is a different proposition entirely. (Perhaps this is a reason the likes of Farage have been reining it in a bit in recent days.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,862
    edited August 7
    Taz said:

    I hope in one thread you can work in "The Last Walz"

    I think it is Walls rather than Waltz. ETA though some Americans do pronounce it as Waltz, and Kamala herself appeared to say Wall as she spun away from the microphone.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    JosiasJessop said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    HERESY!!!!

    (IMO there is no one *good* map projection; they all have advantages and disadvantages. A bit like voting systems. Except AV, of course, which is ideal. Can we have a thread on AV please?)
    Unless events etc but I have an AV thread set for Saturday.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,596
    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Perhaps they should ask him the same question now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,621
    Monksfield said:

    This sort of comms style will so hit the spot in Middle America…

    https://x.com/A_Siegel/status/1820817024240549923

    I could see him putting Iowa in play.

    That Nebraska district too.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Stark_Dawning said:

    If this is true - that the rioters are also anti-semetic in intent - then that could really put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/06/far-right-forums-used-to-plan-riots-now-encouraging-antisemitic-attacks

    In that case the British Right would radically have to reassess its position. Getting behind people it can portray as lost, frustrated souls with a genuine grievance is one thing; sucking up to evil jew-haters - the minority its gone out of its way to champion in recent times - is a different proposition entirely. (Perhaps this is a reason the likes of Farage have been reining it in a bit in recent days.)

    Nige has form for repeating antisemitic dog whistles.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/jewish-groups-and-mps-condemn-nigel-farage-for-antisemitic-dog-whistles
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,862
    Stark_Dawning said:

    If this is true - that the rioters are also anti-semetic in intent - then that could really put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/06/far-right-forums-used-to-plan-riots-now-encouraging-antisemitic-attacks

    In that case the British Right would radically have to reassess its position. Getting behind people it can portray as lost, frustrated souls with a genuine grievance is one thing; sucking up to evil jew-haters - the minority its gone out of its way to champion in recent times - is a different proposition entirely. (Perhaps this is a reason the likes of Farage have been reining it in a bit in recent days.)

    Since no targets are named, it is hard to say. It is possible that foreign trolls are trying to stir up anti-Jewish action but it seems unlikely most rioters would care, even if they know what a Jew is.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    Foxy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hope you all spot the subtle pun in the headline.

    It's amazing how quickly Vance has become part of the furniture.
    But he's not cushioning the impact of Trump's decline.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,596
    Stark_Dawning said:

    If this is true - that the rioters are also anti-semetic in intent - then that could really put the cat amongst the pidgeons.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/06/far-right-forums-used-to-plan-riots-now-encouraging-antisemitic-attacks

    In that case the British Right would radically have to reassess its position. Getting behind people it can portray as lost, frustrated souls with a genuine grievance is one thing; sucking up to evil jew-haters - the minority its gone out of its way to champion in recent times - is a different proposition entirely. (Perhaps this is a reason the likes of Farage have been reining it in a bit in recent days.)

    On the other hand some people are blaming the rioters’ “Zionist backers”.

    https://x.com/luqmann_97/status/1820516240575570161
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,621
    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.

    Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,051
    Casino_Royale said:

    Not that great a pick, since I lost money on it.

    Won't Kamala please think of my book?

    I did warn you the VP market was unpredictable. Although I missed the chance to short Shapiro, I was green on both of them.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 499
    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.

    Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
    I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.


    I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    ydoethur said:

    I suppose the risk with performances like that is he might overshadow Harris, who is as far as I've ever seen a somewhat drier, more thoughtful speaker.

    But as long as he doesn't get personally ambitious I suppose that may not matter.

    If he does keep doing it, might a flipped ticket be on the table?

    QTWTAIN
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,621
    Nigelb said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Not that great a pick, since I lost money on it.

    Won't Kamala please think of my book?

    I did warn you the VP market was unpredictable. Although I missed the chance to short Shapiro, I was green on both of them.
    I missed too.

    I really do think that the Americans need to revise their over protracted Primary system, which seems to consume vast amounts of time and money, and create division within parties. Our parties might want to ponder this too.

    The last fortnight has come up with a better pairing through a much shorter process and unified the party.

    One of the Harris/Walz advantages is to be new and fresh, generating interest and attention at exactly the right time and 3 months to go.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    JosiasJessop said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    HERESY!!!!

    (IMO there is no one *good* map projection; they all have advantages and disadvantages.
    The globe one works quite well?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    StillWaters said:

    ydoethur said:

    I suppose the risk with performances like that is he might overshadow Harris, who is as far as I've ever seen a somewhat drier, more thoughtful speaker.

    But as long as he doesn't get personally ambitious I suppose that may not matter.

    If he does keep doing it, might a flipped ticket be on the table?

    QTWTAIN
    Well, yes, but how else could I get a furniture pun in there?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,621
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.

    Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
    I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.


    I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
    Sure, but it's now equal at half time, and there will be "events",
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,240
    Dopermean said:

    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
    I'm not sure how closing the country's motorways is a "peaceful protest", surely some sort of force is required to effect it.

    But if people are found guilty of criminal conspiracy for the last week's violent disorder, let's see how much time they will get. They could even be tried for terrorism offences
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    Foxy said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hope you all spot the subtle pun in the headline.

    It's amazing how quickly Vance has become part of the furniture.
    May be we will see Trump and Vance engaging in political settee
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited August 7
    Walz will firm up progressives and the Democratic base but Independents probably less than Shapiro would. Remember too Trump won most Independents in 2016 against Hillary Clinton even if Independents voted for Biden in 2020
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. Richard, I rather dislike the 'punching up/down' nonsense. It's just a pretext to justify the dislike and corresponding measures aimed towards particular groups.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    IanB2 said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    HERESY!!!!

    (IMO there is no one *good* map projection; they all have advantages and disadvantages.
    The globe one works quite well?
    Not for the flat-earthers.

    It's also a fair bit harder to carry around.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,126
    edited August 7
    Dopermean said:

    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
    Once again, deliberately seeking to block up the South East of England, including deliberately seeking to cause harm to a *lot* people due to the foreseeable consequences, is *not* in any shape or form a peaceful protest.

    There's a whole list of examples of why it is not peaceful in the Judge's Sentencing Remarks.

    That claim that the JSO actions were 'peaceful' is a lie, even to the perps themselves, which needs to be challenged.

    There were also numerous aggravating factors, including series of offences going back in Hallam's case going back decades.
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Hallam-and-others.pdf

    On the current actions, I think known and shown organisers or initiators are looking at lengthy prison sentences.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.

    Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
    I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.


    I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
    Good post . Yes certainly there’s a danger in the current enthusiasm masking the real battle still ahead for Harris Walz.

    I think Walz though won’t harm the ticket . He has a folksy charm , a good back story and overall I think was the safe pick . Shapiro had drawbacks , another lawyer ! And was seen as far too pro Israeli .
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    I think the choice between Walz and Shapiro ght be different for president but VP is a different, and to be honest less important skillset.

    Shapiro has one job to do, win the presidential college in the crucial state of Pennsylvania for the Dems. The risk is by not making him VP, he might not put as much effort in. Based on his performance last night it looks like he will.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 70
    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    You'll like this thread on maps then - https://x.com/jameslucasit/status/1820874353598152869?s=61&t=wWWeJB3W_ksMJK4LA1OvkA
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    The Mercator projection is at least useful for navigation. The Peters projection is one of the worst. There are far better equal-area projections that don't distort shape so much.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Richard, I rather dislike the 'punching up/down' nonsense. It's just a pretext to justify the dislike and corresponding measures aimed towards particular groups.

    It merely reflects people have had different backgrounds and different life opportunities.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,971
    edited August 7
    JohnLilburne said:

    Dopermean said:

    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
    I'm not sure how closing the country's motorways is a "peaceful protest", surely some sort of force is required to effect it.

    But if people are found guilty of criminal conspiracy for the last week's violent disorder, let's see how much time they will get. They could even be tried for terrorism offences
    Also, for the 1000th time, the JSO mob who got banged up for years, they had all been done multiple times, they had been given suspended sentences, community service and some prison time already. If you keep turning up in court, a judge tells you I don't want to see you again, and there you are back again in some cases being arrested the next day, its going to end up with a long term jail sentence. They are habitual criminals. It wasn't as some try to portray a few nutters who for the first time had a zoom meeting about possibly having a protest.

    In 2011 is anything to go, the rioters will be doing some serious bird, especially ones who have long criminal records.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.

    Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
    Except Starmer did worse with the young and Muslim voters than Corbyn had but won a landslide as he won middle aged centrists
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,126
    edited August 7
    bondegezou said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I hope you all spot the subtle pun in the headline.

    I have spotted no subtle pun in the headline.
    I spotted a split infintive in the article :frowning: .
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    nico679 said:

    another_richard said:

    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.

    Or perhaps people don’t like him because he’s made some awful comments about women . Coming from a poor background and making a success doesn’t give you a free pass to be an arsehole .
    Then attack Vance for his views.

    Instead of spouting crap about furniture.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174
    Starmer needs to nip this in the bud:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1820881508413899082

    Two-tier policing clear as day.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    another_richard said:

    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.

    Winning from the other side of the tracks fulfils the American Dream.

    For years I worked for a US company, the CEO of which was Forbes Businessman of the decade for the 1980s. Commission was unlimited, and they couldn't care less if one earned as much as the CEO, so long the performance was legitimate. The harder one worked and the more successful one became the more one was lauded. But the moment the performance dipped, from a warehouseman to the CEO, one's future was left hanging by a thread. Vance's performance has dipped. It's the American way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,051
    edited August 7
    another_richard said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
    Does it ?
    The vast majority of Jewish representation in Congress is Democratic, of course. And Shapiro himself is a very popular Democratic governor.
    Who seemed to be enjoying himself last night.
    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1820938865563091275
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    ydoethur said:

    StillWaters said:

    ydoethur said:

    I suppose the risk with performances like that is he might overshadow Harris, who is as far as I've ever seen a somewhat drier, more thoughtful speaker.

    But as long as he doesn't get personally ambitious I suppose that may not matter.

    If he does keep doing it, might a flipped ticket be on the table?

    QTWTAIN
    Well, yes, but how else could I get a furniture pun in there?
    Your entire approach is floored

  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076
    edited August 7
    It is notable that the Harris-Walz attacks have been focussed squarely at Trump and Vance, and not their supporters (the Hillary mistake).

    I struggle to see how independents in America will choose Trump/Vance over them. Particularly as we have a motivated and unified left driving turnout.

    I'm going to go as far as predict it won't be close in electoral college votes on the day.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    another_richard said:

    nico679 said:

    another_richard said:

    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.

    Or perhaps people don’t like him because he’s made some awful comments about women . Coming from a poor background and making a success doesn’t give you a free pass to be an arsehole .
    Then attack Vance for his views.

    Instead of spouting crap about furniture.
    I thought that was roughly what he's accused of?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited August 7
    Dopermean said:

    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
    It's a legitimate question and one that raised its head with judges and magistrates a year after the 2011 riots and they were still banging up participants on exemplary sentences.

    Not an issue bothering most people right now. They want the disorder stopped and the participants locked up.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    JosiasJessop said:

    IanB2 said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    HERESY!!!!

    (IMO there is no one *good* map projection; they all have advantages and disadvantages.
    The globe one works quite well?
    Not for the flat-earthers.


    It's also a fair bit harder to carry around.
    Not if you have four elephants to help
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044
    tlg86 said:

    Starmer needs to nip this in the bud:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1820881508413899082

    Two-tier policing clear as day.

    No. The police officer is clear that, faced with a different context, they took a different approach. That’s what the police should do. The police are stretched by these protests. They can’t be everywhere at once.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    StillWaters said:

    ydoethur said:

    StillWaters said:

    ydoethur said:

    I suppose the risk with performances like that is he might overshadow Harris, who is as far as I've ever seen a somewhat drier, more thoughtful speaker.

    But as long as he doesn't get personally ambitious I suppose that may not matter.

    If he does keep doing it, might a flipped ticket be on the table?

    QTWTAIN
    Well, yes, but how else could I get a furniture pun in there?
    Your entire approach is floored

    Are you carpeting me?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,782
    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    Sadly there was a lot of whataboutery yesterday when I was making a similar point. A lot of nit picking. A lot of Asians are beating up people also and Asians can be racists as well. Taking apart finer details of posts that were not relevant. It all comes over as a deflection from the fact that the far right inspired these riots in the first place and nobody is denying anyone who riots should be prosecuted regardless of religion, colour or political views.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    I think the choice between Walz and Shapiro ght be different for president but VP is a different, and to be honest less important skillset.

    Shapiro has one job to do, win the presidential college in the crucial state of Pennsylvania for the Dems. The risk is by not making him VP, he might not put as much effort in. Based on his performance
    last night it looks like he will.
    Secretary of State?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    another_richard said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Richard, I rather dislike the 'punching up/down' nonsense. It's just a pretext to justify the dislike and corresponding measures aimed towards particular groups.

    It merely reflects people have had different backgrounds and different life opportunities.
    It’s a justification for poor behaviour
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    another_richard said:

    nico679 said:

    another_richard said:

    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.

    Or perhaps people don’t like him because he’s made some awful comments about women . Coming from a poor background and making a success doesn’t give you a free pass to be an arsehole .
    Then attack Vance for his views.

    Instead of spouting crap about furniture.
    another_richard said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
    You OK Hun?

    Are you new here? This is the home of furniture puns.

    And Kamala is married to a gentleman of the Jewish faith.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Nigelb said:

    another_richard said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
    Does it ?
    The vast majority of Jewish representation in Congress is Democratic, of course. And Shapiro himself is a very popular Democratic governor.
    The Dems have the support of both Jews and Jew haters.

    Its an interesting source of friction.

    What we have seen in the western world during recent generations has been Jews trending politically to the right and Jew hatred moving politically to the left.

    The USA has seen the second element but, not yet, much of the first.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,363
    StillWaters said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    I think the choice between Walz and Shapiro ght be different for president but VP is a different, and to be honest less important skillset.

    Shapiro has one job to do, win the presidential college in the crucial state of Pennsylvania for the Dems. The risk is by not making him VP, he might not put as much effort in. Based on his performance
    last night it looks like he will.
    Secretary of State?
    Possibly the whole point is that there are incentives for Shapiro to go out and campaign for Harris and based on last night he is willing to do so..
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,237
    ydoethur said:

    StillWaters said:

    ydoethur said:

    StillWaters said:

    ydoethur said:

    I suppose the risk with performances like that is he might overshadow Harris, who is as far as I've ever seen a somewhat drier, more thoughtful speaker.

    But as long as he doesn't get personally ambitious I suppose that may not matter.

    If he does keep doing it, might a flipped ticket be on the table?

    QTWTAIN
    Well, yes, but how else could I get a furniture pun in there?
    Your entire approach is floored

    Are you carpeting me?
    Nailing you down
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 499
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    JohnLilburne said:

    Dopermean said:

    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
    I'm not sure how closing the country's motorways is a "peaceful protest", surely some sort of force is required to effect it.

    But if people are found guilty of criminal conspiracy for the last week's violent disorder, let's see how much time they will get. They could even be tried for terrorism offences
    Also, for the 1000th time, the JSO mob who got banged up for years, they had all been done multiple times, they had been given suspended sentences, community service and some prison time already. If you keep turning up in court, a judge tells you I don't want to see you again, and there you are back again in some cases being arrested the next day, its going to end up with a long term jail sentence. They are habitual criminals. It wasn't as some try to portray a few nutters who for the first time had a zoom meeting about possibly having a protest.

    In 2011 is anything to go, the rioters will be doing some serious bird, especially ones who have long criminal records.
    sitting/lying in the road is clearly peaceful, it is a passive act.
    Burning a hotel, business, house, advice centre to the ground is not a passive or peaceful act.

    How has history judged Cable street?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,621
    bondegezou said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer needs to nip this in the bud:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1820881508413899082

    Two-tier policing clear as day.

    No. The police officer is clear that, faced with a different context, they took a different approach. That’s what the police should do. The police are stretched by these protests. They can’t be everywhere at once.
    There was an arrest in Yardley for carrying an offensive weapon shortly afterwards.

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/man-46-arrested-after-disorder-29689878

    So hardly two tier policing is it?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Mexicanpete said:

    ...

    another_richard said:

    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.

    Winning from the other side of the tracks fulfils the American Dream.

    For years I worked for a US company, the CEO of which was Forbes Businessman of the decade for the 1980s. Commission was unlimited, and they couldn't care less if one earned as much as the CEO, so long the performance was legitimate. The harder one worked and the more successful one became the more one was lauded. But the moment the performance dipped, from a warehouseman to the CEO, one's future was left hanging by a thread. Vance's performance has dipped. It's the American way.
    Its part of the imagery Americans have of their country but its now a long way from reality:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States#Comparisons_with_other_countries
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    another_richard said:

    Nigelb said:

    another_richard said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
    Does it ?
    The vast majority of Jewish representation in Congress is Democratic, of course. And Shapiro himself is a very popular Democratic governor.
    The Dems have the support of both Jews and Jew haters.

    Its an interesting source of friction.

    What we have seen in the western world during recent generations has been Jews trending politically to the right and Jew hatred moving politically to the left.

    The USA has seen the second element but, not yet, much of the first.
    I believe your narrative is far too simplistic, if not just plain wrong.

    I don't believe Tommy Ten Names will be invited to a Bahmitza anytime soon.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    Ratters said:

    It is notable that the Harris-Walz attacks have been focussed squarely at Trump and Vance, and not their supporters (the Hillary mistake).

    I struggle to see how independents in America will choose Trump/Vance over them. Particularly as we have a motivated and unified left driving turnout.

    I'm going to go as far as predict it won't be close in electoral college votes on the day.

    What does not close mean? I think Harris will be doing well to do the same or slightly better than Biden in the electoral college - ie win the states Biden won plus maybe North Carolina (hard to see what else she could flip looking at the polling). More likely she will do a bit worse. She can lose up to 3ish states and still narrowly win.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,913
    IanB2 said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Tim Walz is apparently really into maps.

    Maps are one of my fetishes.

    Can he move over here so I can vote for him?

    https://minnesotareformer.com/2024/08/06/former-geography-teacher-tim-walz-is-really-into-maps/

    "In 1993, he asked his sophomores where they thought the next genocide might happen, based on the geographic data. They pinpointed Rwanda. The following year, the Rwandan Genocide occurred. The New York Times interviewed some of the students involved in the project in 2008, when Walz was a U.S. congressman."

    Where does he stand on the Peters Projection vs Mercator debate?

    All right thinking people are on Team Peters.
    HERESY!!!!

    (IMO there is no one *good* map projection; they all have advantages and disadvantages.
    The globe one works quite well?
    Google Earth makes it sort of portable.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,363
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So yesterday I posted how Elon Musk is fine with virulent antisemitism on his platform but today he restricts criticism of the GOP.

    #TwoTierElon


    I think that makes X / Twitter a publisher which opens up a whole extra set of responsibilities.

    Elon really isn't very bright..
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited August 7
    Talking about excitement, why aren't our pensioner-haters jumping up and down on this particular sofa? Apparently satate pensions will be means tested, taxed for NI etc. But on inspection ...

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/state-pensioners-surrender-full-state-29511397?int_source=nba
    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/state-pensioners-face-having-pay-29682246
    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/dwp-could-make-pension-credit-29683921?int_source=nba

    I noticed them flagged up when reading the riot news posted earlier (thanks Foxy). Curious specimens of clickbait and panic-inducing. I am not sure the editor likes SKS ...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,893
    tlg86 said:

    Starmer needs to nip this in the bud:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1820881508413899082

    Two-tier policing clear as day.

    I like the idea that there are people are prepared to stand in solidarity with the people being maligned attacked and set alight by right wing thugs. If the police don't find those people a threat then that's to everyone's advantage except thise who support the thugs
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,051
    .
    StillWaters said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    I think the choice between Walz and Shapiro ght be different for president but VP is a different, and to be honest less important skillset.

    Shapiro has one job to do, win the presidential college in the crucial state of Pennsylvania for the Dems. The risk is by not making him VP, he might not put as much effort in. Based on his performance last night it looks like he will.
    Secretary of State?
    He's said he wants to serve out his term as governor - and it's entirely possible he'll decide to run for a second term if Harris is President.
    The next generation - Shapiro, Buttigieg, and half a dozen others - have plenty of time. And every reason to root for a ticket on which both candidates are over 60.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    kjh said:

    FF43 said:

    The inspired bit of the Walz pick is how it's making the Harris ticket fun. Fun isn't a word I would have associated with Kamala Harris before.

    Agree. Just like Ed Davey did, which was a surprise and needed for the LDs. Although I wouldn't say Harris wasn't fun. As noted a week or so ago Trump tried to use the fact that Harris laughs all the time as an attack line. It flopped and just highlighted that Trump never laughs, which I hadn't noticed before.

    Looks like fun can be a winner. Who knew. Interestingly I noted here that our local campaign was fun and that was before we won so not biased by victory.

    It would make a nice change if these campaigns could be fun and less bitter. As noted here before most of us have a lot more in common than we disagree on.
    This is another reason why I think that I think Trump will lose and Harris will win.

    In 2016 Trump was portraying himself as someone who cared about Joe Sixpack while Hillary was an out of touch elitist in it for herself.

    In 2024 Trump is a bitter narcissist who only cares about how great Trump is and wants everyone to know that Trump is the greatest president EVER.

    Those who've drank the kool-aid and those who'll always vote GOP no matter what may be willing to vote for that, but Joe Sixpack? He's been forgotten about.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    DavidL said:

    another_richard said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
    Kamala Harris has been married to a practising Jew for a decade. He has led Jewish religious festivals in the Whitehouse. It is absurd to suggest she is a Jew hater. But she is a lot less tolerant of Israel's behaviour in Gaza than Biden and most Americans have traditionally been. A Harris led America will be cooler towards the current government in Jerusalem. We are seeing shades of this already, even under Biden. Shapiro has taken a very similar line on that too. Israel is pushing American patience to breaking point.
    Don't demean yourself David.

    You know I didn't suggested that Harris is a Jew hater.

    I pointed out that there would have been negative electoral consequences from picking Shapiro and this, it seems, outweighed the advantages he would have brought.

    I'm certainly not the first to do so either:

    Moore, a progressive filmmaker, warned that Shapiro could cost her votes in Michigan, a key battleground state in a Substack post titled Now, We Crush Trump: 100 Days to a Better World, published on Monday, pointing to his stance on Israel.

    "If Vice President Harris appoints Josh Shapiro as her Vice Presidential candidate, this too may result in losing Michigan. Shapiro said it's 'antisemitic' for anyone to join the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement against Israel in order to convince them to stop their apartheid behavior," he wrote.

    He continued: "He also cruelly compared peaceful college students to the Ku Klux Klan because they were calling for an end to the slaughter in Gaza. Actions like these will diminish the Arab American vote for Harris and depress a large swath of the youth vote throughout the country."

    https://www.newsweek.com/michael-moore-kamala-harris-warning-josh-shapiro-1931621
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited August 7
    eek said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So yesterday I posted how Elon Musk is fine with virulent antisemitism on his platform but today he restricts criticism of the GOP.

    #TwoTierElon


    I think that makes X / Twitter a publisher which opens up a whole extra set of responsibilities.

    Elon really isn't very bright..
    Indeed, he’s fine with tweets telling a Jew that Dirty Jews are the next ones that should be targeted by the rioters but criticism of the GOP is a no no.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So yesterday I posted how Elon Musk is fine with virulent antisemitism on his platform but today he restricts criticism of the GOP.

    #TwoTierElon


    But... how could this be? We're told that Musky Baby believes in free speech, and that only old Twitter did this sort of thing. I mean, the carefully-curate 'Twitter Files' showed that to anyone possessing only one brain cell... ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,051
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So yesterday I posted how Elon Musk is fine with virulent antisemitism on his platform but today he restricts criticism of the GOP.

    #TwoTierElon


    Given the genuine hate speech that Musk himself amplifies, that's beyond a joke.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,051
    Mexicanpete said:

    another_richard said:

    Nigelb said:

    another_richard said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    Shapiro not being picked revealed that the number of Jew haters among the Dems is at a level capable of affecting elections.
    Does it ?
    The vast majority of Jewish representation in Congress is Democratic, of course. And Shapiro himself is a very popular Democratic governor.
    The Dems have the support of both Jews and Jew haters.

    Its an interesting source of friction.

    What we have seen in the western world during recent generations has been Jews trending politically to the right and Jew hatred moving politically to the left.

    The USA has seen the second element but, not yet, much of the first.
    I believe your narrative is far too simplistic, if not just plain wrong.

    I don't believe Tommy Ten Names will be invited to a Bahmitza anytime soon.
    The internal Democratic debate is over Israel policy.
    In the GOP, it's about whether to accept the support of actual Nazis.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,862
    UK economy fared better in 2022 than previously thought, new figures show
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-economy-fared-better-in-2022-than-previously-thought-new-figures-show/ar-AA1on7D7

    Huzzah for PM Boris Liz Rishi.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited August 7
    Dopermean said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    JohnLilburne said:

    Dopermean said:

    FF43 said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    FF43 said:

    .

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    'Two Tier Keir' is a devastating nickname. It's catchy, quite clever, and like all damaging nicknames, contains an element of truth. It is going to dog SKS in every hypocritical decision that he makes and special interest group that he favours for the remainder of his (hopefully brief) spell in Government.

    "Two Tier Keir" seems clever and to have an element of truth to those that support the riots to some extent and also think Keir Starmer responsible for them, which is about 30% of the population, including most Reform supporters and half of Tories.

    This is way too many people but even so the bulk of the population who want nothing to with any of it aren't going to go "what about?" They just want the perpetrators punished.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots
    It has nothing to do with 'supporting the riots' - most people (quite rightly) want to see disorder and crime punished harshly whichever community it emanates from. Hence why the two tier nickname is damaging.
    Given the far right inspired the riots, if you are hard right yourself you will think the riots have some basis and that the participants need some kind of understanding. That these people have this belief is in the survey I linked.

    Those are the people who think "Two tier Keir" is clever and has an element of truth. They are the ones going "what about?" No-one else does.
    If you get five years for planning a peaceful protest, what's the second tier for planning violent disorder including burning people out of their homes and businesses because of their religious beliefs or skin colour?
    I'm not sure how closing the country's motorways is a "peaceful protest", surely some sort of force is required to effect it.

    But if people are found guilty of criminal conspiracy for the last week's violent disorder, let's see how much time they will get. They could even be tried for terrorism offences
    Also, for the 1000th time, the JSO mob who got banged up for years, they had all been done multiple times, they had been given suspended sentences, community service and some prison time already. If you keep turning up in court, a judge tells you I don't want to see you again, and there you are back again in some cases being arrested the next day, its going to end up with a long term jail sentence. They are habitual criminals. It wasn't as some try to portray a few nutters who for the first time had a zoom meeting about possibly having a protest.

    In 2011 is anything to go, the rioters will be doing some serious bird, especially ones who have long criminal records.
    sitting/lying in the road is clearly peaceful, it is a passive act.
    Burning a hotel, business, house, advice centre to the ground is not a passive or peaceful act.

    How has history judged Cable street?
    Blocking ambulances, stopping people from getting to work ensuring they lose money, preventing cancer patients from reaching the hospital etc is not a peaceful act.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,051
    another_richard said:

    nico679 said:

    another_richard said:

    Punching up is good, punching down isn't.

    Vance is someone who came from socioeconomic deprivation and made a success of his life.

    Perhaps that's why he's resented by so many from more affluent backgrounds.

    Or perhaps people don’t like him because he’s made some awful comments about women . Coming from a poor background and making a success doesn’t give you a free pass to be an arsehole .
    Then attack Vance for his views.

    Instead of spouting crap about furniture.
    You clearly haven't noticed the huge number of Democratic ads attacking Vance for his views. You should get about more.

    As for the couch thing.

    GOP lies: Dems tried to kill Trump, crashed the economy, abort live babies, and are pedophiles.

    Dem lies: JD Vance may have fucked a couch.

    … and y’all WONDER why we’re have fun with the couch nonsense?
    https://x.com/ElieNYC/status/1820973662859882608
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,596
    bondegezou said:

    tlg86 said:

    Starmer needs to nip this in the bud:

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1820881508413899082

    Two-tier policing clear as day.

    No. The police officer is clear that, faced with a different context, they took a different approach. That’s what the police should do. The police are stretched by these protests. They can’t be everywhere at once.
    Partnering with armed self-policing communities?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 692
    nico679 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Watching Walz, I was reminded of how British politicians in their prime like William Hague and Boris Johnson could use humour to demolish opponents. Coach Walz has that in spades.

    Yes a bit of humour can be devastating. Walz seems like a nice guy but the attacks we are already seeing is that he is another progressive making this slate the most left wing in America's history. It has taken Trump an extraordinarily long time to refocus his guns that were set to attack Biden but that is the direction that they seem to be moving to.

    Will this work? Americans have a very different idea of what is left wing than we do. I think personality matters more these days and Walz seems to have plenty. Still concerned that she didn't go for Shapiro though. That would have broadened the ticket. Lots of Trump outriders expressing relief that she didn't.
    The MAGA were always going to depict Harris as far left (by US standards), so not sure there are many votes there.

    Key for the Dems is to enthuse the base and GOTV especially women, the young and minorities. We saw in our election how critical that is. The Ed Davey style is the way to go, positive and fun.
    I agree with the first point but that is why there were advantages in having someone more moderate (like Biden was) on the ticket for balance. She has left herself open and it remains to be seen whether this finds any traction or not.


    I am concerned that there is an assumption that this is over because we would want it to be so. Trump is still ahead and this election is still to be won or lost. Harris has had 3 very good weeks but that has got her back to near parity, it has not given her a decisive lead.
    Good post . Yes certainly there’s a danger in the current enthusiasm masking the real battle still ahead for Harris Walz.

    I think Walz though won’t harm the ticket . He has a folksy charm , a good back story and overall I think was the safe pick . Shapiro had drawbacks , another lawyer ! And was seen as far too pro Israeli .
    I think the Walz pick is an endorsement of personality over actual politics. For all of their differences politically Harris and Schapiro look quite similar personally. I suspect that Biden was a good VP pick for Obama not so much because of his moderate policies but because his train riding Scranton Joe personality.

    Of course it remains to be seen whether focusing on personality works but I think it might matter more than we think to the politically unengaged. It's why lots of people in the UK like Nigel Farage but would happily vote Labour and Lib Dem in their own constituency.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,971
    Talking of terrorists...

    A police officer was taken to hospital after being hit with a sledgehammer while responding to reports of criminal damage.

    A vehicle was used to ram the entrance of the Bristol HQ of defence technology firm Elbit Systems on Bolingbroke Way in Patchway, on the outskirts of Bristol, shortly before 04:00 BST. Employees and police officers who intervened were assaulted, Avon and Somerset Constabulary said, and six people were arrested.

    Sledgehammers, axes, whips and other homemade weapons were seized, police added. During the incident, two officers were assaulted with a sledgehammer, police said.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,549
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Not that great a pick, since I lost money on it.

    Won't Kamala please think of my book?

    I did warn you the VP market was unpredictable. Although I missed the chance to short Shapiro, I was green on both of them.
    I missed too.

    I really do think that the Americans need to revise their over protracted Primary system, which seems to consume vast amounts of time and money, and create division within parties. Our parties might want to ponder this too.

    The last fortnight has come up with a better pairing through a much shorter process and unified the party.

    One of the Harris/Walz advantages is to be new and fresh, generating interest and attention at exactly the right time and 3 months to go.
    And most important, generating money.

    I suspect there will be another big uptick in donations after the addition of Walz to the ticket. perhaps even from some big corporate names. Wisconsin under Governor Walz has been very good at attracting inward investment. Corporate USA doesn't seem too worried by the "left wing" tag. Because it is nonsense.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    kjh said:

    FF43 said:

    The inspired bit of the Walz pick is how it's making the Harris ticket fun. Fun isn't a word I would have associated with Kamala Harris before.

    Agree. Just like Ed Davey did, which was a surprise and needed for the LDs. Although I wouldn't say Harris wasn't fun. As noted a week or so ago Trump tried to use the fact that Harris laughs all the time as an attack line. It flopped and just highlighted that Trump never laughs, which I hadn't noticed before.

    Looks like fun can be a winner. Who knew. Interestingly I noted here that our local campaign was fun and that was before we won so not biased by victory.

    It would make a nice change if these campaigns could be fun and less bitter. As noted here before most of us have a lot more in common than we disagree on.
    This is another reason why I think that I think Trump will lose and Harris will win.

    In 2016 Trump was portraying himself as someone who cared about Joe Sixpack while Hillary was an out of touch elitist in it for herself.

    In 2024 Trump is a bitter narcissist who only cares about how great Trump is and wants everyone to know that Trump is the greatest president EVER.

    Those who've drank the kool-aid and those who'll always vote GOP no matter what may be willing to vote for that, but Joe Sixpack? He's been forgotten about.
    How Joe Sixpack feels about the economy will be important.

    And 'feels' is the right word - its more about personal perceptions versus personal expectations than actual economic data.
This discussion has been closed.