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Are we underestimating the chances of James Cleverly? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    Didn't stop him kneeling to them the next day did it?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    Didn't stop him kneeling to them the next day did it?

    He wasn't kneeling in support of toppling a statue.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    He took the knee for BLM two days AFTER the London riots

    He took a knee in opposition to anti-black racism. As did countless others. If you want to conflate that with support for violence then that is entirely up to you.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936
    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I take it that you don't like him....
    Nah - that’s actually a compliment from @Theuniondivvie . If he didn’t like Jenrick you could tell from his posting…
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,462
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    You can't see any faces. Nobody grabs him or leads him away. He walks to the other people. They do not walk to him. You just imagined all of that. He may have gone onto the plane because he is gaga or he might of been thanking the crew. Either is equally possibly, but you can only see one and imagine the rest.
    Anyone with a brain can read the body language and expressions of the bystanders, in that video

    Also, I’m pretty sure the POTUS’ security dudes are meant to follow him EVERYWHERE. He’s not allowed to disappear out of sight for two minutes, not in a public place

    They don’t follow him on to the plane. Because they do not expect him to get on the plane. Because the plane is empty. You can see how discomfited they are. After about a minute one speaks with Harris as she nervously laughs and appears to ask - shall I go on. And he edges near the plane

    But they are aware it is all being filmed and they know it looks bad so they just pray the senile old fool swiftly exits. Which he does. Then they whisk him away
    In MAGA world, did the Secret Service miss what happened when their colleagues on the Trump team assumed an empty building had no-one on the roof? And how is the plane empty? They're not going to park it there overnight. Someone has to taxi it to a hangar or fly it home.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    George Osborne praises Rachel Reeves' policies, saying her spending cuts were "identical" to his policies.

    Labelling her "continuity Osborne", he said: "I don't think there was anything she announced that I would have ... not done myself"

    SKS Fans have 5 years of explaining to go
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,948
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    You can't see any faces. Nobody grabs him or leads him away. He walks to the other people. They do not walk to him. You just imagined all of that. He may have gone onto the plane because he is gaga or he might of been thanking the crew. Either is equally possibly, but you can only see one and imagine the rest.
    Anyone with a brain can read the body language and expressions of the bystanders, in that video

    Also, I’m pretty sure the POTUS’ security dudes are meant to follow him EVERYWHERE. He’s not allowed to disappear out of sight for two minutes, not in a public place

    They don’t follow him on to the plane. Because they do not expect him to get on the plane. Because the plane is empty. You can see how discomfited they are. After about a minute one speaks with Harris as she nervously laughs and appears to ask - shall I go on. And he edges near the plane

    But they are aware it is all being filmed and they know it looks bad so they just pray the senile old fool swiftly exits. Which he does. Then they whisk him away
    Then why say they grab him as soon as he leaves the plane and lead him away which didn't happen and why refer to the expressions on the faces that you can't see.

    Why make stuff up?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    He took the knee for BLM two days AFTER the London riots

    He took a knee in opposition to anti-black racism. As did countless others. If you want to conflate that with support for violence then that is entirely up to you.

    Shouldn't he have been a bit more clued up on the black lives matter movement? And weren't the riots happening at a time we were supposed to have covid restrictions in place?
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited August 3

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    Didn't stop him kneeling to them the next day did it?

    He wasn't kneeling in support of toppling a statue.

    His words on his June 9th tweet were:

    "We kneel with all those opposing anti-Black racism."

    All - not just those doing so peacefully or even mainly peacefully. All.

    Meanwhile 27 injured policemen were recovering from the injuries they got from violent protestors in London two days previously.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    But the point is, rioting WORKS, in certain circumstances. If it is seen as the voice of people who have otherwise no democratic leverage

    I’m sadly old enough to remember the 80s riots in Brixton and Toxteth etc. They were roundly condemned but the Tory government - sensibly, to my mind - realised there was some justification in the discontent even if the violence was reprehensible and wrong

    So they sent in Michael Heseltine and they made efforts to improve inner city lives. Probably a wise move?

    Ditto the poll tax riots. Ugly ugly violence but the poll tax was ditched

    A sensible Labour government should say These riots are horrible and they must stop, but they should also be like the Tories in the 80s, and hear the cry of pain within: mass immigration has to come down drastically, integration must be much more rigorous, the boats must be stopped

    I hope they do that. I bet they won’t. Much easier to write it all off as a bunch of thugs and so it will happen again and again, because they literally don’t have a clue what to do about these issues and emotionally don’t want to tackle them
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited August 3
    OT has anyone posted this oppo on Shapiro? (I'm seeing it from left-wing accounts that are mad at him for other reasons.)

    https://bsky.app/profile/johnbrownstan.bsky.social/post/3kyr6vd2pqi2r

    It's not really clear that Shapiro did anything wrong here but this whole story about someone committing suicide by stabbing themselves a bunch of times in the back of the head is at least going to draw him into some explaining, also known as losing.

    He's quite a strong favourite in the betting right now so there's an opportunity there if you think it's bad.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,295

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    Seriously? The leader of the free world goes awol and no-one cares? Isn't it a teensy bit more likely he said, hold on, I'll just see the pilot or some such?

    As I said yesterday, I backed Kamala at 16s because it looked more and more obvious Biden did not have another four years in him, so I was more invested than you in Biden being past it, but this really does not look like a smoking gun.
    Leon's been shown to be wrong on Biden's incapacity so many times in the last few days, he's just getting desperate.
    As Joe said yesterday to one of his fellow hacks, "you're stuck with me, kid".

    Biden is decrepit, and four more years is a joke, but that's pretty well it.
    Oh leave off @Leon you spent ages defending Biden and his ability to do 4 more years.

    In truth Biden;s probably borderline in the job. Like most seniors with declining mental faculties he will have his good days and his bad days and the bad evetually outnumber the good.
    Did I ?

    Or rather, was I the one who repeatedly pointed out how difficult it is to unseat a sitting President, if they're determined to run again ? My mistake was actually to think he wouldn't want a second term.
    As I've noted before, I layed Biden (and Trump) as this year's nominee, near the beginning of his term, to my cost, as the odds just went the wrong way for the next year or so, as I didn't think he'd be up to seeking a second term.

    The only thing which really persuaded him in the end was the polls.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    Seriously? The leader of the free world goes awol and no-one cares? Isn't it a teensy bit more likely he said, hold on, I'll just see the pilot or some such?

    As I said yesterday, I backed Kamala at 16s because it looked more and more obvious Biden did not have another four years in him, so I was more invested than you in Biden being past it, but this really does not look like a smoking gun.
    Leon's been shown to be wrong on Biden's incapacity so many times in the last few days, he's just getting desperate.
    As Joe said yesterday to one of his fellow hacks, "you're stuck with me, kid".

    Biden is decrepit, and four more years is a joke, but that's pretty well it.
    Oh leave off @Leon you spent ages defending Biden and his ability to do 4 more years.

    In truth Biden;s probably borderline in the job. Like most seniors with declining mental faculties he will have his good days and his bad days and the bad evetually outnumber the good.
    Did I ?

    Or rather, was I the one who repeatedly pointed out how difficult it is to unseat a sitting President, if they're determined to run again ? My mistake was actually to think he wouldn't want a second term.
    As I've noted before, I layed Biden (and Trump) as this year's nominee, near the beginning of his term, to my cost, as the odds just went the wrong way for the next year or so, as I didn't think he'd be up to seeking a second term.

    The only thing which really persuaded him in the end was the polls.
    You were denying his cognitive decline right up to the moment it was painfully undeniable. It was quite a show

    Look at this video. I think Biden actually dies for a few seconds as Harris waffles weirdly


    https://x.com/immeme0/status/1819225495348670888?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    Didn't stop him kneeling to them the next day did it?

    He wasn't kneeling in support of toppling a statue.

    His words on his June 9th tweet were:

    "We kneel with all those opposing anti-Black racism."

    All - not just those doing so peacefully or even mainly peacefully. All.

    Meanwhile 27 injured policemen were recovering from the injuries they got from violent protestors in London two days previously.
    Still enjoying that Bedfordshire sunshine I see.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Stand Up To Racism
    @AntiRacismDay
    ·
    25m
    📍Manchester now

    Hundreds of antiracists gathering in Piccadilly Gardens to oppose the far right

    https://x.com/AntiRacismDay
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Leon said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    But the point is, rioting WORKS, in certain circumstances. If it is seen as the voice of people who have otherwise no democratic leverage

    I’m sadly old enough to remember the 80s riots in Brixton and Toxteth etc. They were roundly condemned but the Tory government - sensibly, to my mind - realised there was some justification in the discontent even if the violence was reprehensible and wrong

    So they sent in Michael Heseltine and they made efforts to improve inner city lives. Probably a wise move?

    Ditto the poll tax riots. Ugly ugly violence but the poll tax was ditched

    A sensible Labour government should say These riots are horrible and they must stop, but they should also be like the Tories in the 80s, and hear the cry of pain within: mass immigration has to come down drastically, integration must be much more rigorous, the boats must be stopped

    I hope they do that. I bet they won’t. Much easier to write it all off as a bunch of thugs and so it will happen again and again, because they literally don’t have a clue what to do about these issues and emotionally don’t want to tackle them

    If there was any evidence that the far-right represented an identifiable community you might have point. We had a general election a month ago.

  • ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.

    Leeds incident: Prime Minister condemns 'shocking and disgraceful' rioting in Harehills

    Sir Keir Starmer has condemned the "shocking and disgraceful” rioting in the Harehills area of Leeds.

    Vehicles were set on fire and a police car was overturned as residents were warned to stay at home on Thursday evening.

    Following comments from Home Secretary Yvette Cooper condemning the "shocking scenes", a spokesperson for the Prime Minister said: “He would echo that the scenes that we saw last night were shocking and disgraceful. And disorder of this nature has no place in our society.

    “That’s why he would like to thank West Yorkshire Police and the emergency services for their swift support.

    “And the police have our full support in carrying out their investigations and taking the strongest possible action against perpetrators and keep the public safe.”

    https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-07-18/disturbance-involving-agency-workers-sparks-mass-disorder

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,689
    edited August 3

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    Part of the problem is that Starmer has zero credibility and his actions have made things worse not better

    Solemn press conferences promising to metaphorically cosh them all is fine if you react that way to any riot. But not when you only do it with rioters whos root political cause you despise as oppose to sympathise with.

    7th June 2020.

    “27 police officers injured during largely peaceful anti-racism protests in London”

    https://x.com/bbcnews/status/1269574979680702470

    [Wikipedia] "In London, BLM protesters clashed with police. A protester was seen climbing onto The Cenotaph war memorial and attempted to set the Union Jack on fire.[102] The words "was a racist" were painted onto a statue of Sir Winston Churchill."

    "A crowd of at least 5,000 people marched from Bristol's College Green to The Centre where they tore down the statue, dragged and dumped it into Bristol Harbour.[106][107] The empty plinth was used as a stage for protesters"

    9th June 2020.

    @keirstarmer We kneel with all those opposing anti-Black racism. #BlackLivesMatter

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428.

    Note the word "All"






    Starmer really winds you up doesn't he?
    Its not me you need to worry about. I'm happy to sit here in rural Bedfordshire on a glorious summer day and watch while he implodes under his own contradictions and look forward to the next election, relishing watching their most sacred shibboleths like the Climate Change act slowly screwing them.

    The millions who can't get a roof over their heads except at eyewatering prices due to competition from immigrants and unable to get anything other than low paid wprk due to plentiful immigrants meaning employers can get away with low wages.

    They are getting VERY wound up and there are rather a lot of them.

    I actually feel sorry for the immigrants who are being exploited by the powers that be for cheap labour and political gain.

    *******

    Oh dear.

    We need the Saturday morning Russian troll to raise the quality a bit. Where are they?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,948
    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    What the hell has that got to do with what @SouthamObserver said. Only the right wing thugs and their supporters don't care by taking attention away from the incident and the grieving. It is difficult to imagine how this could have been made worse for these children and parents, but these thugs and supporters have managed it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.

    I wouldn't describe you as an extremist, just a saloon bar contrarian.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Labour - it's not going well is it ?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    Seriously? The leader of the free world goes awol and no-one cares? Isn't it a teensy bit more likely he said, hold on, I'll just see the pilot or some such?

    As I said yesterday, I backed Kamala at 16s because it looked more and more obvious Biden did not have another four years in him, so I was more invested than you in Biden being past it, but this really does not look like a smoking gun.
    Leon's been shown to be wrong on Biden's incapacity so many times in the last few days, he's just getting desperate.
    As Joe said yesterday to one of his fellow hacks, "you're stuck with me, kid".

    Biden is decrepit, and four more years is a joke, but that's pretty well it.
    Oh leave off @Leon you spent ages defending Biden and his ability to do 4 more years.

    In truth Biden;s probably borderline in the job. Like most seniors with declining mental faculties he will have his good days and his bad days and the bad evetually outnumber the good.
    Did I ?

    Or rather, was I the one who repeatedly pointed out how difficult it is to unseat a sitting President, if they're determined to run again ? My mistake was actually to think he wouldn't want a second term.
    As I've noted before, I layed Biden (and Trump) as this year's nominee, near the beginning of his term, to my cost, as the odds just went the wrong way for the next year or so, as I didn't think he'd be up to seeking a second term.

    The only thing which really persuaded him in the end was the polls.
    You were denying his cognitive decline right up to the moment it was painfully undeniable. It was quite a show

    Look at this video. I think Biden actually dies for a few seconds as Harris waffles weirdly


    https://x.com/immeme0/status/1819225495348670888?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    Or, he is waiting patiently for her to say a few words.

    But it makes no odds. He is obviously too old and that was revealed properly at the debate that eventually led to him standing down from the nomination.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Space Comedy post -

    https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/

    Yup, looks increasingly like Boeing has screwed the pooch on this one. Again.

    That they’re even still talking about how to fix the problem, after two months, says that it’s all about the optics.

    NASA should have learned their lesson from the two Shuttle accidents, what happens when you prioritise optics over ultimate safety.

    Send the capsule down unmanned, and send a Crew Dragon up to collect the astronauts.

    (The playground joke in 1986 was that NASA stands for Need Another Seven Astronauts).
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.
    Absolutely no egging on going on here, no sirree.

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.

    Leeds incident: Prime Minister condemns 'shocking and disgraceful' rioting in Harehills

    Sir Keir Starmer has condemned the "shocking and disgraceful” rioting in the Harehills area of Leeds.

    Vehicles were set on fire and a police car was overturned as residents were warned to stay at home on Thursday evening.

    Following comments from Home Secretary Yvette Cooper condemning the "shocking scenes", a spokesperson for the Prime Minister said: “He would echo that the scenes that we saw last night were shocking and disgraceful. And disorder of this nature has no place in our society.

    “That’s why he would like to thank West Yorkshire Police and the emergency services for their swift support.

    “And the police have our full support in carrying out their investigations and taking the strongest possible action against perpetrators and keep the public safe.”

    https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-07-18/disturbance-involving-agency-workers-sparks-mass-disorder

    Oh dear, more fake news, back to the drawing board for angry of bedfordshire.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited August 3

    Leon said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    But the point is, rioting WORKS, in certain circumstances. If it is seen as the voice of people who have otherwise no democratic leverage

    I’m sadly old enough to remember the 80s riots in Brixton and Toxteth etc. They were roundly condemned but the Tory government - sensibly, to my mind - realised there was some justification in the discontent even if the violence was reprehensible and wrong

    So they sent in Michael Heseltine and they made efforts to improve inner city lives. Probably a wise move?

    Ditto the poll tax riots. Ugly ugly violence but the poll tax was ditched

    A sensible Labour government should say These riots are horrible and they must stop, but they should also be like the Tories in the 80s, and hear the cry of pain within: mass immigration has to come down drastically, integration must be much more rigorous, the boats must be stopped

    I hope they do that. I bet they won’t. Much easier to write it all off as a bunch of thugs and so it will happen again and again, because they literally don’t have a clue what to do about these issues and emotionally don’t want to tackle them

    If there was any evidence that the far-right represented an identifiable community you might have point. We had a general election a month ago.

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    What did the Tories do? (And I absolutely blame the Tories here). They tripled immigration and lost control of the channel

    So how do people vote now if they want much less immigration? You can’t blame millions for thinking: “i won’t bother voting at all. They never listen”

    Hence the sub 60% turnout at the last election
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936
    edited August 3
    Deleted. Vanilla quotes went horribly wrong.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512
    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    edited August 3

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.

    I wouldn't describe you as an extremist, just a saloon bar contrarian.

    Oh Im definitely conservative, 1ts just there hasnt been a conservative party for quite some time. Big State, big spend internationalism is Labour, not Conservative
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    moonshine said:

    Roger said:

    The Tories need someone white and racist which cuts their choice down to one.

    It must be strange to inhabit the inside of your head. Not that it’s particularly interesting, but have a flick back through the skin colour of Tory leaders and Chancellors in the last decade.
    Roger is wrong about everything.

    All the time.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited August 3

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
    Wasn't she banned from the World Championships and shown to have the XY chromosone pair?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Neo-nazi thugs burnt down a Citizen's Advice centre in Sunderland last night.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited August 3
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    But the point is, rioting WORKS, in certain circumstances. If it is seen as the voice of people who have otherwise no democratic leverage

    I’m sadly old enough to remember the 80s riots in Brixton and Toxteth etc. They were roundly condemned but the Tory government - sensibly, to my mind - realised there was some justification in the discontent even if the violence was reprehensible and wrong

    So they sent in Michael Heseltine and they made efforts to improve inner city lives. Probably a wise move?

    Ditto the poll tax riots. Ugly ugly violence but the poll tax was ditched

    A sensible Labour government should say These riots are horrible and they must stop, but they should also be like the Tories in the 80s, and hear the cry of pain within: mass immigration has to come down drastically, integration must be much more rigorous, the boats must be stopped

    I hope they do that. I bet they won’t. Much easier to write it all off as a bunch of thugs and so it will happen again and again, because they literally don’t have a clue what to do about these issues and emotionally don’t want to tackle them

    If there was any evidence that the far-right represented an identifiable community you might have point. We had a general election a month ago.

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    What did the Tories do? (And I absolutely blame the Tories here). They tripled immigration and lost control of the channel

    So how do people vote now if they want much less immigration? You can’t blame millions for thinking: “i won’t bother voting at all. They never listen”

    Hence the sub 60% turnout at the last election

    The post-election research on non-voters does not indicate they were all right-wingers sitting on their hands. What I would say, though, is that I have been a long-time supporter of PR for elections in this country and the result on 4th July did not change my mind. A change of voting system, long overdue, is what would make the biggest difference. That will not happen because both major parties see advantages in the current system. I hope the Tories prove me wrong, though.

  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    Neo-nazi thugs burnt down a Citizen's Advice centre in Sunderland last night.

    Didn't you get the memo, they are not neo-nazi thugs they are model citizens with well-founded concerns who have reached the end of their tether.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    Leon said:

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    You knew the Leave campaign was a bunch of lies

    And you voted for it anyway
  • Tres said:

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.
    Absolutely no egging on going on here, no sirree.

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.

    Leeds incident: Prime Minister condemns 'shocking and disgraceful' rioting in Harehills

    Sir Keir Starmer has condemned the "shocking and disgraceful” rioting in the Harehills area of Leeds.

    Vehicles were set on fire and a police car was overturned as residents were warned to stay at home on Thursday evening.

    Following comments from Home Secretary Yvette Cooper condemning the "shocking scenes", a spokesperson for the Prime Minister said: “He would echo that the scenes that we saw last night were shocking and disgraceful. And disorder of this nature has no place in our society.

    “That’s why he would like to thank West Yorkshire Police and the emergency services for their swift support.

    “And the police have our full support in carrying out their investigations and taking the strongest possible action against perpetrators and keep the public safe.”

    https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-07-18/disturbance-involving-agency-workers-sparks-mass-disorder

    Oh dear, more fake news, back to the drawing board for angry of bedfordshire.
    Did he call a press conference in person to do so flanked by Union Jacks? No. Just comments passed on by a Spox and far less harsh comments at that.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    You knew the Leave campaign was a bunch of lies

    And you voted for it anyway
    LOL and you knew the Remain campaign was outright mendacity and voted for it anyway.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936
    ...

    Labour - it's not going well is it ?

    Can your posts get any more dreary? Who do you believe is your audience on here?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,170
    ..

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
    Fckn hell, sort your quotes out!
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    Tres said:

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.
    Absolutely no egging on going on here, no sirree.

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.

    Leeds incident: Prime Minister condemns 'shocking and disgraceful' rioting in Harehills

    Sir Keir Starmer has condemned the "shocking and disgraceful” rioting in the Harehills area of Leeds.

    Vehicles were set on fire and a police car was overturned as residents were warned to stay at home on Thursday evening.

    Following comments from Home Secretary Yvette Cooper condemning the "shocking scenes", a spokesperson for the Prime Minister said: “He would echo that the scenes that we saw last night were shocking and disgraceful. And disorder of this nature has no place in our society.

    “That’s why he would like to thank West Yorkshire Police and the emergency services for their swift support.

    “And the police have our full support in carrying out their investigations and taking the strongest possible action against perpetrators and keep the public safe.”

    https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-07-18/disturbance-involving-agency-workers-sparks-mass-disorder

    Oh dear, more fake news, back to the drawing board for angry of bedfordshire.
    Did he call a press conference in person to do so flanked by Union Jacks? No. Just comments passed on by a Spox and far less harsh comments at that.

    You'll be wanting the PM to call a press conference the next time a yob throws a stone at a bus at this rate. Let it go.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,170

    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
    Wasn't she banned from the World Championships and shown to have the XY chromosone pair?
    Nothing has been ‘shown’, a lot has been claimed.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Tres said:

    Neo-nazi thugs burnt down a Citizen's Advice centre in Sunderland last night.

    Didn't you get the memo, they are not neo-nazi thugs they are model citizens with well-founded concerns who have reached the end of their tether.
    If only Rachel Reeves hadn't set this all off.
  • ...

    Labour - it's not going well is it ?

    Can your posts get any more dreary? Who do you believe is your audience on here?
    The audience here, almost uniquely for social media, is often people outside your comfort zone and sometimes those who retort with well constructed arguments rebutting your points.
  • ..

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
    Fckn hell, sort your quotes out!
    Those are my words. Since sorted that quoting clusterfuck in any case before the six minute hammer dropped.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Pb unusually depressing this week. Enjoy the sunshine and sport everyone!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    You knew the Leave campaign was a bunch of lies

    And you voted for it anyway
    LOL and you knew the Remain campaign was outright mendacity and voted for it anyway.
    Nonetheless Project Fear turned out to be in principle accurate if a little over embellished.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,689
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    Seriously? The leader of the free world goes awol and no-one cares? Isn't it a teensy bit more likely he said, hold on, I'll just see the pilot or some such?

    As I said yesterday, I backed Kamala at 16s because it looked more and more obvious Biden did not have another four years in him, so I was more invested than you in Biden being past it, but this really does not look like a smoking gun.
    Leon's been shown to be wrong on Biden's incapacity so many times in the last few days, he's just getting desperate.
    As Joe said yesterday to one of his fellow hacks, "you're stuck with me, kid".

    Biden is decrepit, and four more years is a joke, but that's pretty well it.
    Oh leave off @Leon you spent ages defending Biden and his ability to do 4 more years.

    In truth Biden;s probably borderline in the job. Like most seniors with declining mental faculties he will have his good days and his bad days and the bad evetually outnumber the good.
    Did I ?

    Or rather, was I the one who repeatedly pointed out how difficult it is to unseat a sitting President, if they're determined to run again ? My mistake was actually to think he wouldn't want a second term.
    As I've noted before, I layed Biden (and Trump) as this year's nominee, near the beginning of his term, to my cost, as the odds just went the wrong way for the next year or so, as I didn't think he'd be up to seeking a second term.

    The only thing which really persuaded him in the end was the polls.
    Yep. You and me both. It's coming right in the end but there was a period there that really tested the nerve.

    Anyway on the Leon, ignoring the nonsense it's all good. He was going to have to support Donald Trump (albeit deeply reluctantly) if Biden clung on as the Dem candidate. But with the switch made, he's able to join us in rooting for Harris.

    That's such a relief.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    You knew the Leave campaign was a bunch of lies

    And you voted for it anyway
    LOL and you knew the Remain campaign was outright mendacity and voted for it anyway.
    Nonetheless Project Fear turned out to be in principle accurate if a little over embellished.
    Of course
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936

    ...

    Labour - it's not going well is it ?

    Can your posts get any more dreary? Who do you believe is your audience on here?
    The audience here, almost uniquely for social media, is often people outside your comfort zone and sometimes those who retort with well constructed arguments rebutting your points.
    But the Field Marshal's posts are essentially "Starmer is shite", which is fine, but he doesn't show his workings out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512

    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
    Wasn't she banned from the World Championships and shown to have the XY chromosone pair?
    No. It was *claimed* she was tested by the IBA, a boxing organisation that is based in Russia, and whose head is best buds with Putin. An organisation that has had a massive falling-out with the IOC.

    It could be the tests were properly done and did show that she had an XY pair. But given it's Russia... especially given Russia's history of cheating in sport, I wouldn't put any money on it.

    Besides, even if she has an XY pair, it does not mean she does not have a DSD. As I've pointed out many times before, sex is not binary; the majority of people lie at one end of the spectrum or the other (male or female), but there is a sizable grey zone in between.

    And if you accept that, the question becomes where you place the line between 'male' and 'female' in a way that can be fair. I don't have an answer to that.

    But the hared shown towards Khelif is quite something, including calling her a 'man' and indicating she is in some way an imposter, or even as I've seen elsewhere, a trans woman.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Gold in the eights.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,948
    Another gold. Sitting down event again, but still another gold.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,462

    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
    Wasn't she banned from the World Championships and shown to have the XY chromosone pair?
    By the IBA, which was dropped as Olympic boxing's governing body over corruption and Russian control, so the waters are very muddy. Khelif has lost half a dozen fights so it's not like Mike Tyson against girls.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    But the point is, rioting WORKS, in certain circumstances. If it is seen as the voice of people who have otherwise no democratic leverage

    I’m sadly old enough to remember the 80s riots in Brixton and Toxteth etc. They were roundly condemned but the Tory government - sensibly, to my mind - realised there was some justification in the discontent even if the violence was reprehensible and wrong

    So they sent in Michael Heseltine and they made efforts to improve inner city lives. Probably a wise move?

    Ditto the poll tax riots. Ugly ugly violence but the poll tax was ditched

    A sensible Labour government should say These riots are horrible and they must stop, but they should also be like the Tories in the 80s, and hear the cry of pain within: mass immigration has to come down drastically, integration must be much more rigorous, the boats must be stopped

    I hope they do that. I bet they won’t. Much easier to write it all off as a bunch of thugs and so it will happen again and again, because they literally don’t have a clue what to do about these issues and emotionally don’t want to tackle them

    If there was any evidence that the far-right represented an identifiable community you might have point. We had a general election a month ago.

    We had a referendum - with a much greater turnout than the GE - indeed the biggest mandate in British history - and the Leave side won. And common consent - not least amongst the left - is that the Leave side won because they offered much stricter rules on immigration. That’s what the people wanted, it’s what they said they wanted. Take Back Control

    What did the Tories do? (And I absolutely blame the Tories here). They tripled immigration and lost control of the channel

    So how do people vote now if they want much less immigration? You can’t blame millions for thinking: “i won’t bother voting at all. They never listen”

    Hence the sub 60% turnout at the last election

    The post-election research on non-voters does not indicate they were all right-wingers sitting on their hands. What I would say, though, is that I have been a long-time supporter of PR for elections in this country and the result on 4th July did not change my mind. A change of voting system, long overdue, is what would make the biggest difference. That will not happen because both major parties see advantages in the current system. I hope the Tories prove me wrong, though.

    Well here’s a rare moment of concord. I completely agree with you. It’s time for PR - and for new parties with new ideas on left and right. British politics is an abject failure. I don’t care if it means the Tories - or Labour - can never govern alone again. Indeed I welcome it

    And now I’m going to sunbathe on my riviera balcony with a coffee
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,516

    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
    Wasn't she banned from the World Championships and shown to have the XY chromosone pair?
    She had competed in multiple competitions, including the Tokyo Olympics (where she lost in the quarter-final to Kellie Harrington). She was taking part in the 2023 World Championships, when she was disqualified for failing eligibility tests (after beating a Russian boxer). The IBA is based in Russia and the IOC had already suspended their recognition for multiple failings. The IOC cast doubt on the IBA's actions and say no due process was followed. The IBA disqualified Khelif and another boxer, and the IOC has allowed both to compete in Paris.

    In 2023, it was unclear exactly how Khelif had supposedly failed the IBA's gender eligibility tests. There were various and conflicting reports. The head of the IBA has recently said they found Khelif to have XY chromosomes, but there are no details or proof of the testing they've done. There are several different intersex conditions were someone has XY chromosomes, but is phenotypically female.

    The Italian boxer she beat who first complained about her has since apologised and withdrawn her comments. However, the Hungarian boxer she's up against next is now repeating the complaints.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    Seriously? The leader of the free world goes awol and no-one cares? Isn't it a teensy bit more likely he said, hold on, I'll just see the pilot or some such?

    As I said yesterday, I backed Kamala at 16s because it looked more and more obvious Biden did not have another four years in him, so I was more invested than you in Biden being past it, but this really does not look like a smoking gun.
    Leon's been shown to be wrong on Biden's incapacity so many times in the last few days, he's just getting desperate.
    As Joe said yesterday to one of his fellow hacks, "you're stuck with me, kid".

    Biden is decrepit, and four more years is a joke, but that's pretty well it.
    Oh leave off @Leon you spent ages defending Biden and his ability to do 4 more years.

    In truth Biden;s probably borderline in the job. Like most seniors with declining mental faculties he will have his good days and his bad days and the bad evetually outnumber the good.
    Did I ?

    Or rather, was I the one who repeatedly pointed out how difficult it is to unseat a sitting President, if they're determined to run again ? My mistake was actually to think he wouldn't want a second term.
    As I've noted before, I layed Biden (and Trump) as this year's nominee, near the beginning of his term, to my cost, as the odds just went the wrong way for the next year or so, as I didn't think he'd be up to seeking a second term.

    The only thing which really persuaded him in the end was the polls.
    You were denying his cognitive decline right up to the moment it was painfully undeniable. It was quite a show

    Look at this video. I think Biden actually dies for a few seconds as Harris waffles weirdly

    https://x.com/immeme0/status/1819225495
    348670888?
    s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    That isn’t word salad.

    It’s a nuanced point that you don’t understand.

    There are two concepts:

    1) diplomacy is powerful
    2) there is real strength that can be derived from having and understanding that diplomacy can be an effective alternative to military action. At the very lease it gives you an escalation path


  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.

    I wouldn't describe you as an extremist, just a saloon bar contrarian.

    Oh Im definitely conservative, 1ts just there hasnt been a conservative party for quite some time. Big State, big spend internationalism is Labour, not Conservative

    Well, Mrs Thatcher was the driving force for the creation of the Single Market - but I know where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I see it as an entirely respectable and understandable political viewpoint. What I find very worrying about modern Conservatism is all this nonsense about the deep state and the blob and the relentless attacks on our institutions and the rule of law. Margaret Thatcher never entertained any of that nonsense.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512
    Gold for GB in the eight men working and one man shouting floaty thingymajigs.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,972

    Pb unusually depressing this week. Enjoy the sunshine and sport everyone!

    Britain is unusually depressing this week.

    It doesn't feel like much has changed even with a new Government. Best part of five years of buyers' remorse doesn't help the national mood.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,782

    ..

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
    Fckn hell, sort your quotes out!
    Those are my words. Since sorted that quoting clusterfuck in any case before the six minute hammer dropped.
    Post election come down, innit? Blue vermin sent packing and we now contemplate the new reality.

    Hopefully we'll have a really good, blood drenched and flame wreathed riot season. Then the tory conference should be a laugh, then we're into the US Presidential carnage, then Strictly then it's the Holidays.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    moonshine said:

    Very true ...

    I keep thinking how 3 little girls were killed & more were hurt & traumatised, & instead of talking about their precious lives, we are being forced to focus on violent entitled white men burning cars & towns, who don’t give a shit about women’s & girls’ safety.

    https://x.com/sianushka/status/1819617021321003401

    I watched a woman being punch in the face the other day by a man. On the bbc no less. Seems plenty don’t really care about women and girl’s safety.
    Khelif is a woman. AIUI she has been classed as a woman all her life. The accusation is that she is actually a man, or someone living with DSD. The evidence for these seems unconclusive - and as we saw yesterday with the hilarious attempts at using AI to determine it, looks are not conclusive.

    There's an inherent nastiness and lack of understanding and empathy in many of these attacks on her.
    Wasn't she banned from the World Championships and shown to have the XY chromosone pair?
    Her case is similar to that of Caster Semanya, the South African runner from a few years ago. It’s a very nuanced discussion about a genetic abnormality, which of course those on both sides talking past each other on social media don’t understand.

    Yes she was disqualified from the world championships, but the boxing world championship organisers and the Olympic organisers don’t see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues at the moment.

    That the fight the other day was so horribly one-sided, doesn’t help matters either. It was like one of the early Mike Tyson fights from the ‘80s.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,193
    Sandpit said:

    Space Comedy post -

    https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/

    Yup, looks increasingly like Boeing has screwed the pooch on this one. Again.

    That they’re even still talking about how to fix the problem, after two months, says that it’s all about the optics.

    NASA should have learned their lesson from the two Shuttle accidents, what happens when you prioritise optics over ultimate safety.

    Send the capsule down unmanned, and send a Crew Dragon up to collect the astronauts.

    (The playground joke in 1986 was that NASA stands for Need Another Seven Astronauts).
    NASA - sponsored by Seven Down….

    If they don’t come back on Starliner, that’s the Starliner project stuffed. Even if not directly canned, they’d need another acceptance flight. Production of Atlas V has ended.

    Aside from the politicians wholly owned by Boeing, a big chunk of NASA are looking at Boeing as a place to consult after retirement.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Well, Mrs Thatcher was the driving force for the creation of the Single Market - but I know where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I see it as an entirely respectable and understandable political viewpoint. What I find very worrying about modern Conservatism is all this nonsense about the deep state and the blob and the relentless attacks on our institutions and the rule of law. Margaret Thatcher never entertained any of that nonsense.

    Exactly

    If Conservatism stood for anything it was individual responsibility

    All this "blob" shit is total abdication of that principle
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Best part of five years of buyers' remorse doesn't help the national mood.

    We are now in year 8 of buyers remorse...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    ...

    Labour - it's not going well is it ?

    Can your posts get any more dreary? Who do you believe is your audience on here?
    The audience here, almost uniquely for social media, is often people outside your comfort zone and sometimes those who retort with well constructed arguments rebutting your points.
    But the Field Marshal's posts are essentially "Starmer is shite", which is fine, but he doesn't show his workings out.
    Riight so you were expecting riots ? Or a totally confused series of economic announcements from a discredited CoE ? Or agreed closing down our North Sea industry is a good idea ? Or supported unleashing an unsustainable wave of public sector pay rises ? Ot thought Starmer getting booed in Southport because he couldnt be arsed to spend more than literally 2 minutes was a good look ?

    Starmer still has a chance to turn this round as it can be put down to a steep learning curve but the honeymoon has been remarkably short. And since he claimed to be all things to all men in the campaign he has nothing to fall back on as hes going to upset lots of people,
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,936
    Dura_Ace said:

    ..

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
    Fckn hell, sort your quotes out!
    Those are my words. Since sorted that quoting clusterfuck in any case before the six minute hammer dropped.
    Post election come down, innit? Blue vermin sent packing and we now contemplate the new reality.

    Hopefully we'll have a really good, blood drenched and flame wreathed riot season. Then the tory conference should be a laugh, then we're into the US Presidential carnage, then Strictly then it's the Holidays.
    But which is the most destructive event? I'm going with Strictly!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,295
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Omg. Excruciating but…. Funny…. But excruciating

    Biden wanders away and climbs on an empty plane for no reason

    https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1819412448698302651?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I wonder if he can last until November

    Given no-one follows the president onto the plane or seems the least bit concerned, one imagines he was thanking the crew (or possibly taking a leak).
    Seriously? Look at the confused and bewildered faces of everyone else. Look at the way they grab him as soon as steps down - to guide him safely away

    This is not a partisan point. Biden is out of the game - thank god. I can’t believe people are still trying to pretend he’s AOK. What’s the point??
    Seriously? The leader of the free world goes awol and no-one cares? Isn't it a teensy bit more likely he said, hold on, I'll just see the pilot or some such?

    As I said yesterday, I backed Kamala at 16s because it looked more and more obvious Biden did not have another four years in him, so I was more invested than you in Biden being past it, but this really does not look like a smoking gun.
    Leon's been shown to be wrong on Biden's incapacity so many times in the last few days, he's just getting desperate.
    As Joe said yesterday to one of his fellow hacks, "you're stuck with me, kid".

    Biden is decrepit, and four more years is a joke, but that's pretty well it.
    Oh leave off @Leon you spent ages defending Biden and his ability to do 4 more years.

    In truth Biden;s probably borderline in the job. Like most seniors with declining mental faculties he will have his good days and his bad days and the bad evetually outnumber the good.
    Did I ?

    Or rather, was I the one who repeatedly pointed out how difficult it is to unseat a sitting President, if they're determined to run again ? My mistake was actually to think he wouldn't want a second term.
    As I've noted before, I layed Biden (and Trump) as this year's nominee, near the beginning of his term, to my cost, as the odds just went the wrong way for the next year or so, as I didn't think he'd be up to seeking a second term.

    The only thing which really persuaded him in the end was the polls.
    You were denying his cognitive decline right up to the moment it was painfully undeniable. It was quite a show

    Look at this video. I think Biden actually dies for a few seconds as Harris waffles weirdly

    https://x.com/immeme0/status/1819225495348670888?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    I've defended his presidency vehemently, that's certainly true. I think he's done a pretty good job - and far better than was forecast.

    But the one bet I've consistently pushed as covering all eventualities is laying Trump.

    Biden pulled off a diplomatic coup, on the same day he relinquished any future ambitions. While you were speculating he was dead, or that someone has resigned him on his behalf.

    I'll leave it there. Enjoy your morning.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Pb unusually depressing this week. Enjoy the sunshine and sport everyone!

    Britain is unusually depressing this week.

    It doesn't feel like much has changed even with a new Government. Best part of five years of buyers' remorse doesn't help the national mood.
    Britain in the news, sure. Outside the news, lots more people enjoying life.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    It’s not just mass migration it is economic decline in these areas while growth, prosperity and spending is lavished on the south and the perception of two tier policing as well.

    Violent BLM protests were reported as ‘mostly peaceful’

    This allows the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Sandpit said:

    Space Comedy post -

    https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/

    Yup, looks increasingly like Boeing has screwed the pooch on this one. Again.

    That they’re even still talking about how to fix the problem, after two months, says that it’s all about the optics.

    NASA should have learned their lesson from the two Shuttle accidents, what happens when you prioritise optics over ultimate safety.

    Send the capsule down unmanned, and send a Crew Dragon up to collect the astronauts.

    (The playground joke in 1986 was that NASA stands for Need Another Seven Astronauts).
    NASA - sponsored by Seven Down….

    If they don’t come back on Starliner, that’s the Starliner project stuffed. Even if not directly canned, they’d need another acceptance flight. Production of Atlas V has ended.

    Aside from the politicians wholly owned by Boeing, a big chunk of NASA are looking at Boeing as a place to consult after retirement.
    NASA best medium-term option at the moment is probably to throw a billion at Blue Origin, if they want to have two independent manned launch systems.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,782

    Dura_Ace said:

    ..

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
    Fckn hell, sort your quotes out!
    Those are my words. Since sorted that quoting clusterfuck in any case before the six minute hammer dropped.
    Post election come down, innit? Blue vermin sent packing and we now contemplate the new reality.

    Hopefully we'll have a really good, blood drenched and flame wreathed riot season. Then the tory conference should be a laugh, then we're into the US Presidential carnage, then Strictly then it's the Holidays.
    But which is the most destructive event? I'm going with Strictly!
    The riots have been the most entertaining. We had that fucking thick chav in Southport copping an artfully flung brick to his bollocks and that fucking thick chav in Hartlepool who had the arse ripped out of his £4 sportsdirect.co.uk shorts by Plod's woolly alligator. More of that sort of thing, please.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 715
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    ..

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    Do you not know the days of the week? Monday was the day three girls were stabbed to death and many more could have been by the son of Rwandan migrants. You're a fool if you don't think that won't influence the public at all.
    The narrative was created on Twitter by a right wing agent provocateur. A woman who has form for fake news. Farage, either by cockup or conspiracy ran with that narrative.

    Loads of people calling LBC later this week were sticking with the alleged murderer being a Syrian (Muslim) Refugee. The notion that a lie gets half way around the world before the truth has got it's boots on is a truism.
    It wouldn't surprise me if LBC deliberately put those people through. But again do we have any hard data on how many believed the Syrian refugee story?

    Anyway the rioters are thugs from what I can see. If people really want to draw attention to migration problems they can glue themselves to the road which I'd suggest would be more effective.
    The mindless violence and boorishness of the Yaxley Lennon brigade is the biggest asset their opponents have.
    Fckn hell, sort your quotes out!
    Those are my words. Since sorted that quoting clusterfuck in any case before the six minute hammer dropped.
    Post election come down, innit? Blue vermin sent packing and we now contemplate the new reality.

    Hopefully we'll have a really good, blood drenched and flame wreathed riot season. Then the tory conference should be a laugh, then we're into the US Presidential carnage, then Strictly then it's the Holidays.
    But which is the most destructive event? I'm going with Strictly!
    The riots have been the most entertaining. We had that fucking thick chav in Southport copping an artfully flung brick to his bollocks and that fucking thick chav in Hartlepool who had the arse ripped out of his £4 sportsdirect.co.uk shorts by Plod's woolly alligator. More of that sort of thing, please.
    More of that for everyone. No running away when the protesters have a slightly darker hue.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    Gold for GB in the eight men working and one man shouting floaty thingymajigs.

    When I was at school I was offered the chance to become a Cox because of my small size. I couldn't see what the Cox actually did and thought it totally pointless. I'd rather have fun playing games instead.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 715
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    It’s not just mass migration it is economic decline in these areas while growth, prosperity and spending is lavished on the south and the perception of two tier policing as well.

    Violent BLM protests were reported as ‘mostly peaceful’

    This allows the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard.
    For those unwilling to believe it:
    https://x.com/BBCNews/status/1269574979680702470
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    edited August 3

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    Part of the problem is that Starmer has zero credibility and his actions have made things worse not better

    Solemn press conferences promising to metaphorically cosh them all is fine if you react that way to any riot. But not when you only do it with rioters whos root political cause you despise as oppose to sympathise with.

    7th June 2020.

    “27 police officers injured during largely peaceful anti-racism protests in London”

    https://x.com/bbcnews/status/1269574979680702470

    [Wikipedia] "In London, BLM protesters clashed with police. A protester was seen climbing onto The Cenotaph war memorial and attempted to set the Union Jack on fire.[102] The words "was a racist" were painted onto a statue of Sir Winston Churchill."

    "A crowd of at least 5,000 people marched from Bristol's College Green to The Centre where they tore down the statue, dragged and dumped it into Bristol Harbour.[106][107] The empty plinth was used as a stage for protesters"

    9th June 2020.

    @keirstarmer We kneel with all those opposing anti-Black racism. #BlackLivesMatter

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428.

    Note the word "All"







    Starmer really winds you up doesn't he?
    Its not me you need to worry about. I'm happy to sit here in rural Bedfordshire on a glorious summer day and watch while he implodes under his own contradictions and look forward to the next election, relishing watching their most sacred shibboleths like the Climate Change act slowly screwing them.

    The millions who can't get a roof over their heads except at eyewatering prices due to competition from immigrants and unable to get anything other than low paid wprk due to plentiful immigrants meaning employers can get away with low wages.

    They are getting VERY wound up and there are rather a lot of them.

    I actually feel sorry for the immigrants who are being exploited by the powers that be for cheap labour and political gain.



    Vanilla effed up. Response here.

    The importation of cheap migrants to do jobs in care homes due to low pay here when they should simply increase the hourly rate is a scandal. These are not skilled professionals who add to the U.K. who are the migrants we really want and need. Coming in to wipe pensioners bums for minimum wage. The real problem is they bring with them children who need educating, at a cost, and other economically inactive dependents who become a net burden on society. All to save a quid or two an hour.

    This guy brought his wife and four kids expecting care home work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-100-migrants-face-being-in-uk-illegally-as-care-agency-is-stripped-of-ability-to-endorse-visas-13178490
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Gold for GB in the eight men working and one man shouting floaty thingymajigs.

    I always knew Sir Ed Davey had it in him.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222
    Another morning, another double take as I cast my eye down the medal table, down down down, and finally there is Germany with 2 gold medals. A gold below Romania.

    (By the way the Romanian national anthem is very good).

    Have Germany just narrowly missed out on lots of golds, like the USA? No, they have 7 medals in total.

    Meanwhile France, GB and Italy, the other major European economies, have 11, 10 and 5 golds each.

    What has happened? Has Germany just stopped investing in Olympic sports? They used to win the Olympics. More than that, West Germany and East Germany used to battle it out at the top of the board.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    George Osborne praises Rachel Reeves' policies, saying her spending cuts were "identical" to his policies.

    Labelling her "continuity Osborne", he said: "I don't think there was anything she announced that I would have ... not done myself"

    SKS Fans have 5 years of explaining to go

    @Tres
    This is what Starmer Derangement Syndrome looks like.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 715

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.

    I wouldn't describe you as an extremist, just a saloon bar contrarian.

    Oh Im definitely conservative, 1ts just there hasnt been a conservative party for quite some time. Big State, big spend internationalism is Labour, not Conservative

    Well, Mrs Thatcher was the driving force for the creation of the Single Market - but I know where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I see it as an entirely respectable and understandable political viewpoint. What I find very worrying about modern Conservatism is all this nonsense about the deep state and the blob and the relentless attacks on our institutions and the rule of law. Margaret Thatcher never entertained any of that nonsense.

    The Single Market was probably her greatest achievement. I cant believe the bozos in government enthusiastically left it. The Thatcherisation of a continent. You still get lots of pork barrel stuff in the EU but its pretty hard for a government to feather its domestic and state providers for public services.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,929

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    It’s not just mass migration it is economic decline in these areas while growth, prosperity and spending is lavished on the south and the perception of two tier policing as well.

    Violent BLM protests were reported as ‘mostly peaceful’

    This allows the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard.
    Can I suggest some things which allow the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard? People going on about Muslims supposedly being problematic in reaction to a tragic event that involved 0 Muslims; or going on about "legitimate questions" in the face of violent riots; or saying we need to have conversation about immigration as if we haven't been having a conversation about immigration over and over for at least a decade; or whatabout-ing the violence instead of condemning it.

    I propose the best way to stop the likes of Tommy Robinson being heard is for everyone to condemn Robinson and the thugs who chant his name.
    Well at the moment we have no idea how to integrate a large portion of the Muslim population into the UK. That discussion ought to be happening, hopefully in a way that doesn't inflame racial tensions. But it can't be avoided any longer.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    It’s not just mass migration it is economic decline in these areas while growth, prosperity and spending is lavished on the south and the perception of two tier policing as well.

    Violent BLM protests were reported as ‘mostly peaceful’

    This allows the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard.
    Can I suggest some things which allow the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard? People going on about Muslims supposedly being problematic in reaction to a tragic event that involved 0 Muslims; or going on about "legitimate questions" in the face of violent riots; or saying we need to have conversation about immigration as if we haven't been having a conversation about immigration over and over for at least a decade; or whatabout-ing the violence instead of condemning it.

    I propose the best way to stop the likes of Tommy Robinson being heard is for everyone to condemn Robinson and the thugs who chant his name.
    We’ve had little else other than a conversation about immigration since about 2005.

    The Tories banged on about it endlessly while numbers went up. If people want to reduce immigration then “having a conversation about it” doesn’t appear to be particularly effective.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,193
    ydoethur said:

    Gold for GB in the eight men working and one man shouting floaty thingymajigs.

    I always knew Sir Ed Davey had it in him.
    A win for the ARA - who massively kicked things around after the last Olympics.

    “Seat racing may hurt your feelings. We don’t give a shit.”
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,312

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.

    I wouldn't describe you as an extremist, just a saloon bar contrarian.

    Oh Im definitely conservative, 1ts just there hasnt been a conservative party for quite some time. Big State, big spend internationalism is Labour, not Conservative

    Well, Mrs Thatcher was the driving force for the creation of the Single Market - but I know where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I see it as an entirely respectable and understandable political viewpoint. What I find very worrying about modern Conservatism is all this nonsense about the deep state and the blob and the relentless attacks on our institutions and the rule of law. Margaret Thatcher never entertained any of that nonsense.

    The Single Market was probably her greatest achievement. I cant believe the bozos in government enthusiastically left it. The Thatcherisation of a continent. You still get lots of pork barrel stuff in the EU but its pretty hard for a government to feather its domestic and state providers for public services.
    Perhaps Europe's economic stagnation is the result of this?
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724
    ydoethur said:

    George Osborne praises Rachel Reeves' policies, saying her spending cuts were "identical" to his policies.

    Labelling her "continuity Osborne", he said: "I don't think there was anything she announced that I would have ... not done myself"

    SKS Fans have 5 years of explaining to go

    @Tres
    This is what Starmer Derangement Syndrome looks like.
    Of course I had forgotten the uniqueness of the BJO obsession.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    It’s not just mass migration it is economic decline in these areas while growth, prosperity and spending is lavished on the south and the perception of two tier policing as well.

    Violent BLM protests were reported as ‘mostly peaceful’

    This allows the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard.
    Can I suggest some things which allow the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard? People going on about Muslims supposedly being problematic in reaction to a tragic event that involved 0 Muslims; or going on about "legitimate questions" in the face of violent riots; or saying we need to have conversation about immigration as if we haven't been having a conversation about immigration over and over for at least a decade; or whatabout-ing the violence instead of condemning it.

    I propose the best way to stop the likes of Tommy Robinson being heard is for everyone to condemn Robinson and the thugs who chant his name.
    We’ve had little else other than a conversation about immigration since about 2005.

    The Tories banged on about it endlessly while numbers went up. If people want to reduce immigration then “having a conversation about it” doesn’t appear to be particularly effective.
    The dishonesty in that conversation is the problem. What was the point in “take back control” when you see the net numbers since 2016.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983

    Scott_xP said:

    I don't doubt events on Monday will make Labour more worried about the impact of the small boats issue. Will they make any policy change? Not sure.

    How does torching a CAB help Stop the Boats?

    It doesn't.

    If Labour change any policies to appease these racists fukwits then democracy is dead.
    How does tipping a statue into a river in Bristol and injuring 27 police officers in London help the cause of anti-racism?

    Didn't stop Starmer and Rayner kneeling in their honour two days later.

    Didn't think that one through properly did they?

    Keir Starmer: pulling down Edward Colston statue was wrong

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/08/keir-starmer-edward-colston-bristol-statue-wrong

    Didn't stop him kneeling to them the next day did it?

    He wasn't kneeling in support of toppling a statue.

    Were you ever a kindergarten teacher? You've got infinite patience
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222
    moonshine said:

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Awful scenes yesterday in Sunderland, and my friend in Newcastle has been told by their friend at the RVI that they are on alert for a potential riot in Newcastle today.

    Time that we crack down on these micro-brain “patriots”. We can’t jail them as they are full, and they are a menace to society. So why not deport them to Rwanda? We already spent the money on that, let’s get best value for the taxpayer

    These riots could now become a feature not a bug

    Why? Because the underlying cause - mass immigration and unchecked boat people - is not going away. It might easily get worse. There will be another Southport, another Manchester arena - tragically. And next time the explosion will be instant

    Starmer doesn’t appear to remotely understand this. He thinks it’s a passing issue of civil disorder
    It’s not just mass migration it is economic decline in these areas while growth, prosperity and spending is lavished on the south and the perception of two tier policing as well.

    Violent BLM protests were reported as ‘mostly peaceful’

    This allows the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard.
    Can I suggest some things which allow the likes of Tommy Robinson to be heard? People going on about Muslims supposedly being problematic in reaction to a tragic event that involved 0 Muslims; or going on about "legitimate questions" in the face of violent riots; or saying we need to have conversation about immigration as if we haven't been having a conversation about immigration over and over for at least a decade; or whatabout-ing the violence instead of condemning it.

    I propose the best way to stop the likes of Tommy Robinson being heard is for everyone to condemn Robinson and the thugs who chant his name.
    We’ve had little else other than a conversation about immigration since about 2005.

    The Tories banged on about it endlessly while numbers went up. If people want to reduce immigration then “having a conversation about it” doesn’t appear to be particularly effective.
    The dishonesty in that conversation is the problem. What was the point in “take back control” when you see the net numbers since 2016.
    And yet apparently this is all down to Labour, who’ve been in power for just under a month.
  • Tres said:

    Tres said:

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.
    Absolutely no egging on going on here, no sirree.

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.

    Leeds incident: Prime Minister condemns 'shocking and disgraceful' rioting in Harehills

    Sir Keir Starmer has condemned the "shocking and disgraceful” rioting in the Harehills area of Leeds.

    Vehicles were set on fire and a police car was overturned as residents were warned to stay at home on Thursday evening.

    Following comments from Home Secretary Yvette Cooper condemning the "shocking scenes", a spokesperson for the Prime Minister said: “He would echo that the scenes that we saw last night were shocking and disgraceful. And disorder of this nature has no place in our society.

    “That’s why he would like to thank West Yorkshire Police and the emergency services for their swift support.

    “And the police have our full support in carrying out their investigations and taking the strongest possible action against perpetrators and keep the public safe.”

    https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-07-18/disturbance-involving-agency-workers-sparks-mass-disorder

    Oh dear, more fake news, back to the drawing board for angry of bedfordshire.
    Did he call a press conference in person to do so flanked by Union Jacks? No. Just comments passed on by a Spox and far less harsh comments at that.

    You'll be wanting the PM to call a press conference the next time a yob throws a stone at a bus at this rate. Let it go.
    The bigger issue is the appeasement that went on in 2020.

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    well yes, but given the lack of moderation in how you describe the right everyone in your book is far right. Its one of the weaknesses of political polemic.

    Somehow we have lost the bulk of right wing voters who are just conservative. Everyone is an extremist and of the worst kind.

    I wouldn't describe you as an extremist, just a saloon bar contrarian.

    Oh Im definitely conservative, 1ts just there hasnt been a conservative party for quite some time. Big State, big spend internationalism is Labour, not Conservative

    Well, Mrs Thatcher was the driving force for the creation of the Single Market - but I know where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I see it as an entirely respectable and understandable political viewpoint. What I find very worrying about modern Conservatism is all this nonsense about the deep state and the blob and the relentless attacks on our institutions and the rule of law. Margaret Thatcher never entertained any of that nonsense.

    The Single Market was probably her greatest achievement. I cant believe the bozos in government enthusiastically left it. The Thatcherisation of a continent. You still get lots of pork barrel stuff in the EU but its pretty hard for a government to feather its domestic and state providers for public services.
    Perhaps Europe's economic stagnation is the result of this?
    The problem is that once adopted at Eureopean Level it is virtually cast in stone and exceptionally difficult to reverse.

    Post Brexit - a majority vote in the HoC can sweep the lot away virtually overnight.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222
    TimS said:

    Another morning, another double take as I cast my eye down the medal table, down down down, and finally there is Germany with 2 gold medals. A gold below Romania.

    (By the way the Romanian national anthem is very good).

    Have Germany just narrowly missed out on lots of golds, like the USA? No, they have 7 medals in total.

    Meanwhile France, GB and Italy, the other major European economies, have 11, 10 and 5 golds each.

    What has happened? Has Germany just stopped investing in Olympic sports? They used to win the Olympics. More than that, West Germany and East Germany used to battle it out at the top of the board.

    And the other one is Poland. Emerging giant of the EU, 4 medals, zero golds.

    But seriously what’s up with Germany? Perhaps they scrape it back in the track and field events.
  • WildernessPt2WildernessPt2 Posts: 715
    Tres said:

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.
    Absolutely no egging on going on here, no sirree.

    ...

    Much as despise the slimy git, Jenrick sounded very confident and facilely plausible on R4 this am.

    I think he's the Tories' best bet. He means what he says. That gives him a huge advantage over the likes of Cleverley and poor old Tom Tugendhat.

    I don't believe Jenrick "means what he says". He plays to his audience. Now the argument on here is that is what Starmer did to become LOTO, and that maybe true. Although Starmer jettisoned the extremists. I doubt Jenrick will. Taking a cue from the "we want our country back" brigade throwing rocks in Sunderland he will go full on Make England Great Again.

    That's the point. Jenrick won't jettison the extremists. He will do what he says.

    How will we know ? Given Labour label anyone conservative as "far right" its unknowable. Is David Cameron far right ?

    David Cameron would have condemned these riots unequivocally. No ifs, no buts. As Tim Montgomerie pointed out, Margaret Thatcher would have done so too.

    And Starmer was correct to do so. However his failure to condemn previous riots such as Leeds and his previous appeasement in 2020 of violent protestors whos cause he sympathises with means that he has poured gallons of petrol onto a fire that I fear will reach Ulster proportions before long unless radical reform (of the sort that he opposes with every fibre of his being) occurs and fast.

    Leeds incident: Prime Minister condemns 'shocking and disgraceful' rioting in Harehills

    Sir Keir Starmer has condemned the "shocking and disgraceful” rioting in the Harehills area of Leeds.

    Vehicles were set on fire and a police car was overturned as residents were warned to stay at home on Thursday evening.

    Following comments from Home Secretary Yvette Cooper condemning the "shocking scenes", a spokesperson for the Prime Minister said: “He would echo that the scenes that we saw last night were shocking and disgraceful. And disorder of this nature has no place in our society.

    “That’s why he would like to thank West Yorkshire Police and the emergency services for their swift support.

    “And the police have our full support in carrying out their investigations and taking the strongest possible action against perpetrators and keep the public safe.”

    https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-07-18/disturbance-involving-agency-workers-sparks-mass-disorder

    Oh dear, more fake news, back to the drawing board for angry of bedfordshire.
    https://news.sky.com/video/leeds-riots-unrest-in-harehills-appalling-and-unacceptable-says-home-secretary-yvette-cooper-13181231

    "community, community, community, community blah blah, community"
This discussion has been closed.