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The majority of voters support changing the voting system – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,917
edited July 7 in General
The majority of voters support changing the voting system – politicalbetting.com

What forms of electoral reform would Britons support for general elections?Automatic voter registration: 81% supportChanging the voting system to PR: 54%Making election day a bank holiday: 51%Allowing people to vote online 47%Compulsory voting: 41%Changing the voting age… pic.twitter.com/Gf4rOuBkU3

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    EScrymgeourEScrymgeour Posts: 67
    primo
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    The majority of voters are going to be disappointed, but then that is nothing new.
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    boulayboulay Posts: 5,085
    Is Southgate the only football manager in the world who thinks trippier is a better option than Trent as a right wing-back?

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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,363
    Online voting.............
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    It's the online voting one that worries me, I really don't think people are thinking of the complexities, or the advantages of a low tech option as we have now. Nor do I think it would appreciably affect turnout - it is not hard to vote now, if someone would be put off by what is there they would would find another reason to be put off.

    Votes at 16 I am in the majority opposing, but it is a manifesto promise and simple to do, so it will happen, but it is interesting how it became an article of faith in some parties despite lacking clear public support.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,544

    Britain is back.

    First, second, and third on the front row tomorrow held by the Brits.

    First triumph for the new government?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,617
    edited July 6
    Paper voting is a bit of a nuisance, but with a bit control over postal voting and PR all would be well.
    Not keen on votes at 16.
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,696
    Free owl for every vote cast.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    I have seen people suggest Saturdays and Sundays would be better for voting, and obviously some nations already do it that way - I presume people have attempted studies to see if the day would make any difference, as it's one of those that again I don't instinctively see what difference it would make. Yes, fewer people will be working that day, but most people have polling stations close to home, and polls are open for 16 hours so people on a working day should be able to vote (or get a postal vote), and of course many people are still working at the weekend even though it is fewer. What is the perceived advantage, or what is so disadvantageous about a weekday that it is a good idea to change?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 30,246

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I agree. But these new MPs are going to vote in favour of it.
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    PhilPhil Posts: 2,122
    edited July 6
    Sad to see my personal preference for single member constituency Approval voting (or STV in a pinch I guess) for Parliament seems to be dead in the water. Save PR for the second chamber IMO.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 117,033
    DavidL said:

    Britain is back.

    First, second, and third on the front row tomorrow held by the Brits.

    First triumph for the new government?
    Yes.

    If England do not win the Euros this year then Starmer needs to consider his position.

    With the UK and Ireland hosting Euro 2028 there might be huge feelgood factor across all the nations that could boost Starmer.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 30,246
    kle4 said:

    It's the online voting one that worries me, I really don't think people are thinking of the complexities, or the advantages of a low tech option as we have now. Nor do I think it would appreciably affect turnout - it is not hard to vote now, if someone would be put off by what is there they would would find another reason to be put off.

    Votes at 16 I am in the majority opposing, but it is a manifesto promise and simple to do, so it will happen, but it is interesting how it became an article of faith in some parties despite lacking clear public support.

    The Dutch had to stop using electronic voting a few years ago because of fears of interference, particularly from Russia.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,106
    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 117,033

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I was like you but the Indyref converted me.

    Some of the most engaged, passionate, and articulate campaigners on both side were these children.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 117,033
    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    After the 2005 defeat Michael Howard promoted George Osborne to Shadow Chancellor and David Cameron to the Shadow Cabinet.

    Inspired choices.
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    boulayboulay Posts: 5,085
    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Are the LibDems going to do one of those wanky Shadow Shadow Cabinets?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,460
    edited July 6

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I was like you but the Indyref converted me.

    Some of the most engaged, passionate, and articulate campaigners on both side were these children.
    I would not be totally opposed to a relaxation of voting age if it were accompanied by a simultaneously reassessment of age restrictions or limits on other matters.

    It doesn't need to be 100% consistent, there are some things that would remain appropriate or inappropriate in the arbitrary way we decide matters, but my problem is we still seem to emphasise the childhood of 16 year olds, that they should not be trusted to act as adults in most things. And since that is also how we treat those under 16, it makes it unclear why 16 is the distinction line.

    If we do trust them to participate in voting, then they should have more 'adult' rights on top of voting to go with it.

    Which is why it is not a case of belittling children for me, it is about what we consider to be children, adults, or something in between. And if we don't think they are children, treat them with the respect that deserves more widely. If we do think they are children (which personally I do), then it is no outrage to not have them vote.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,363
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,544

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I was like you but the Indyref converted me.

    Some of the most engaged, passionate, and articulate campaigners on both side were these children.
    Not least my daughter. One of the most effective canvassers we had.
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    boulayboulay Posts: 5,085

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
    I think pushing the centrists to higher profile shadow positions will be the plan. Maybe save Northern Ireland for Suella.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,106

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308
    DM_Andy said:

    Online voting.............

    Anyone who suggests that we should do online voting should listen to anyone who's an expert in computer systems, 100% of them would say it's a bad idea.
    And where did you learn that stat?

    Online.

    And you trust it?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 30,246
    Live stream of the vote count in Inverness.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/dtBGaUfQaSs
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    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,767
    Whose stupid idea was it to close the comments when a new thread goes up? I was writing a reply about the performance of the pollsters at this election, I've gone to post it and the bloody site has just lost the lot.

    Anyway, to summarize: the likely reasons why the polls were off to varying degrees this time around appear to be as follows:

    1. Failure to model/anticipate the unusually strong minor party vote at this election. Independents and the Workers Party have taken nearly 800,000 votes between them, and the bulk of that will be Gaza eruptions directed at Labour
    2. The data may not have been granular enough to account for very strong Liberal Democrat performances in their target seats, although the extent of tactical switching from LD to Labour elsewhere may also have been over-estimated
    3. Reform backers may be disproportionately likely not to bother to turn out, and pollsters have failed to adjust for this because the party is a new thing and they therefore lack historic data

    @wooliedyed pointed out that Savanta appeared to have done well in predicting a large minor party turnout, but their other figures are a bit all over the place. The wooden spoon contest for the final pre-election polls this year seems to be between People Polling for GBeebies, and Opinium - a surprise given that they were the most accurate pollster in 2019. I'd say the best effort this year was by Norstat.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,639
    Very crafty of you TSE to suggest we use AV to select a preferred alternative to FPTP.

    I would like d'Hondt with around 8 members per constituency. Provides close to proportionality, essentially sets a minimum threshold for representation, and gives a result overnight. "But the parties choose the list!" I hear people cry. Good - that is a privilege of party membership.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,308

    Are the LibDems going to do one of those wanky Shadow Shadow Cabinets?

    Give then their day in the sun. A few weeks ago their entire parliamentary party could fit in a couple of taxis.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,639

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    You tried Gerrymandering and voter suppression.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,763

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
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    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,767
    Andy_JS said:

    Live stream of the vote count in Inverness.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/dtBGaUfQaSs

    It's reminiscent of the slow TV phenomenon. Like that nine-hour film of a train trip through Norway. Though in this case I think we're talking about very slow TV. I wonder if the eventual winner will have time to make it to Westminster before the Summer recess?
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    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,048
    rcs1000 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Online voting.............

    Anyone who suggests that we should do online voting should listen to anyone who's an expert in computer systems, 100% of them would say it's a bad idea.
    And where did you learn that stat?

    Online.

    And you trust it?
    I learned that online but I used that information to understand why it's a bad idea. There needs to be an audit trail so we can trust the results but that audit trail cannot scale so we can have anonymity. It is easy to attack the pen and paper system we have now but it gets very difficult to get into the tens of votes, it isn't much more difficult to attack an electronic voting system and you can basically make the result anything you want.

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    boulayboulay Posts: 5,085
    edited July 6
    I’m always amused when sitting outside a good bar on a nice sunny day like today, with Wimbledon then the football on outside, and people walk in and look around with a look on their faces that shows deep incomprehension why, 30 minutes before the football, there are no tables or space left. It’s as if they thought that it was only them who would want to be out so just rock up whenever. They are seemingly unable to process why there are no seats and look really sad. Idiots.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743
    edited July 6

    Are the LibDems going to do one of those wanky Shadow Shadow Cabinets?

    I nominate Caroline Voaden as Shadow Shadow minister for fishing.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,146
    Andy_JS said:

    Live stream of the vote count in Inverness.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/dtBGaUfQaSs

    Thanks Andy, but it's a bit dull. May have to watch the footy instead.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,194
    Well, we needn’t feel guilty about giving Switzerland a good thrashing. Through history they’ve been a greedy, thieving, money-grabbing, mercenary, selfish, xenophobic, reactionary country and they deserve every goal we can score against them. Which probably won’t be that many.
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,449

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I was like you but the Indyref converted me.

    Some of the most engaged, passionate, and articulate campaigners on both side were these children.
    And I don't buy being allowed to get shot, get married, have kids, and yet not get to vote.

    Criminal responsibility is 10, but you don't go into the adult justice system until 17. That would seem like the remaining anomaly once voting is in place.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,567

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    I think the removal people moved a lot more than just the cabinets...
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,567
    edited July 6
    boulay said:

    Is Southgate the only football manager in the world who thinks trippier is a better option than Trent as a right wing-back?

    Will it be Gareth Southgate, or Gareth Sunak? :lol:
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,146

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    Quite.

    Anyone who has followed the Post Office scandal will be wary of any compurisation, and most certainly the voting system.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    After the LD fallback in 2015 and prior to the rise of the Greens I always worked on the assumption that if you got 44% or so in a constituency you'd be unlikely to lose it. However we now have four/five party politics (six in Scotland, Wales), with possibly the Indies/Workers adding a partial sixth/seventh in places. As such 35% starts to become tough to beat seat by seat. That means a slightly more targeted, less collegiate offering stands a chance of scooping a lot of seats. A more 'extreme' offering that should cap at, say, 25% is now not a block on being a dominant or balance holding force in the Commons.
    Centrism is at risk from overcrowding.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,743
    edited July 6
    pigeon said:

    Whose stupid idea was it to close the comments when a new thread goes up? I was writing a reply about the performance of the pollsters at this election, I've gone to post it and the bloody site has just lost the lot.

    Anyway, to summarize: the likely reasons why the polls were off to varying degrees this time around appear to be as follows:

    1. Failure to model/anticipate the unusually strong minor party vote at this election. Independents and the Workers Party have taken nearly 800,000 votes between them, and the bulk of that will be Gaza eruptions directed at Labour
    2. The data may not have been granular enough to account for very strong Liberal Democrat performances in their target seats, although the extent of tactical switching from LD to Labour elsewhere may also have been over-estimated
    3. Reform backers may be disproportionately likely not to bother to turn out, and pollsters have failed to adjust for this because the party is a new thing and they therefore lack historic data

    @wooliedyed pointed out that Savanta appeared to have done well in predicting a large minor party turnout, but their other figures are a bit all over the place. The wooden spoon contest for the final pre-election polls this year seems to be between People Polling for GBeebies, and Opinium - a surprise given that they were the most accurate pollster in 2019. I'd say the best effort this year was by Norstat.

    Mostly I think the polling error was on certainty to vote, particularly but not exclusively in seats thought to be safe. I think that explains the underestimate of the Labour vote, why Independents won or came close, and why both Lab and LD seat targeting worked. Those were the seats where people actually knew their vote mattered.

    Very hard for pollsters to correct for, particularly if nonvoters " remember" who they voted for.
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    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,767

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    The Tories' big mistake was not changing polling station opening hours to 10am to 3pm (for the welfare of the staff, you understand: shorter working day, no counting all through the night,) and restricting postal ballots to the infirm (disabled, in hospital, ELDERLY.)

    If you're going to gerrymander, make a proper job of it.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,763

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    Beaten to it. Too late to delete.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    Foxy said:

    Are the LibDems going to do one of those wanky Shadow Shadow Cabinets?

    I nominate Caroline Voaden as Shadow Shadow minister for fishing.
    I think she'll want European Union Affairs
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 69,033
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
    I think pushing the centrists to higher profile shadow positions will be the plan. Maybe save Northern Ireland for Suella.
    The last thing we want is restart the civil war in Northern Ireland. Make Braverman Shadow Solicitor General, at best.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,363
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
    I think pushing the centrists to higher profile shadow positions will be the plan. Maybe save Northern Ireland for Suella.
    I had sympathy for Suella on that one and for all John Ashworth got angry with her for denouncing Leicester, he ended up losing his seat thanks to sectarian voting.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 30,246
    Harriet Dart goes out. She was 2 points away from winning in the 2nd set.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Coutinho could shred Reeves.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,363
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
    I think pushing the centrists to higher profile shadow positions will be the plan. Maybe save Northern Ireland for Suella.
    The last thing we want is restart the civil war in Northern Ireland. Make Braverman Shadow Solicitor General, at best.
    It's nice to see a figure on the right who doesn't have any illusions about the six counties though.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,106
    edited July 6

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    You tried Gerrymandering and voter suppression.
    And, now, Labour will try the same. Just as they did last time with their selection of electoral systems as well.

    Only place I can think of it's actually worked is Wales.

    [ EDIT: I disagree updating the constitutency boundaries with balanced voter registrations is "gerrymandering" - not the same thing at all. ]
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 69,033

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    You tried Gerrymandering and voter suppression.
    And, now, Labour will try the same. Just as they did last time with their selection of electoral systems as well.

    Only place I can think of it's actually worked is Wales.
    Although they are of course now gerrymandering it further. Just to be on the safe side.
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,017
    I just wonder if the low turnout is connected in some way to rules that make it harder to get a postal vote? I had one and it changed back to an in person vote as I didn't get around to reapplying for the postal vote, I recall it involving some complex process.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,605
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
    I think pushing the centrists to higher profile shadow positions will be the plan. Maybe save Northern Ireland for Suella.
    The last thing we want is restart the civil war in Northern Ireland. Make Braverman Shadow Solicitor General, at best.
    I'd offer her shadow media/sport etc. She couldn't do too much damage there, right?

    Oh and good afternoon PB :D
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,017

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    I suspect this is based on outdated ideas about the young always being left wing.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    Foxy said:

    pigeon said:

    Whose stupid idea was it to close the comments when a new thread goes up? I was writing a reply about the performance of the pollsters at this election, I've gone to post it and the bloody site has just lost the lot.

    Anyway, to summarize: the likely reasons why the polls were off to varying degrees this time around appear to be as follows:

    1. Failure to model/anticipate the unusually strong minor party vote at this election. Independents and the Workers Party have taken nearly 800,000 votes between them, and the bulk of that will be Gaza eruptions directed at Labour
    2. The data may not have been granular enough to account for very strong Liberal Democrat performances in their target seats, although the extent of tactical switching from LD to Labour elsewhere may also have been over-estimated
    3. Reform backers may be disproportionately likely not to bother to turn out, and pollsters have failed to adjust for this because the party is a new thing and they therefore lack historic data

    @wooliedyed pointed out that Savanta appeared to have done well in predicting a large minor party turnout, but their other figures are a bit all over the place. The wooden spoon contest for the final pre-election polls this year seems to be between People Polling for GBeebies, and Opinium - a surprise given that they were the most accurate pollster in 2019. I'd say the best effort this year was by Norstat.

    Mostly I think the polling error was on certainty to vote, particularly but not exclusively in seats thought to be safe. I think that explains the underestimate of the Labour vote, why Independents won or came close, and why both Lab and LD seat targeting worked. Those were the seats where people actually knew their vote mattered.

    Very hard for pollsters to correct for, particularly if nonvoters " remember" who they voted for.
    Certainty to vote is a perennial problem in polling. If polling responses translated to real world turnout there would have been another 6 or 7 million votes on Thursday.
    I suspect the answer might be to ignore likelihood to vote, weight on past vote and offer force choice on DKs ignoring anyone who remains DK to give a snapshot. But in general there is just too much polling and too much reactive journalism based off it. Everything in the last 3 years was couched via whether it 'moved the polls' and pollsters and those given early sight ramping has become ludicrous now. Lyons Lowe with the 'waiting for Survation' crap because of 2017 etc. That said, I'm very guilty of poll watching.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,544
    The pressure is hellish this afternoon. Had to squeeze qualifying into the cricket and now, despite the best efforts of Glen, the English women have not formally wrapped up in time for kick off.

    Oh the stress.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,915
    darkage said:

    I just wonder if the low turnout is connected in some way to rules that make it harder to get a postal vote? I had one and it changed back to an in person vote as I didn't get around to reapplying for the postal vote, I recall it involving some complex process.

    Imo the reasons were:

    1. Foregone conclusion
    2. Tory abstentions
    3. General disillusionment with politics
    4. Voter ID
    5. Problems with postal voting
    6. Forgone conclusion
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,449
    darkage said:

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    I suspect this is based on outdated ideas about the young always being left wing.
    Many years ago, my other half wrote a paper for a Tory think-tank on the problem with generalising from "many young people" to "all young people" and the foolishness of abandoning "the youth vote" on that basis.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    edited July 6

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
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    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,419

    darkage said:

    I just wonder if the low turnout is connected in some way to rules that make it harder to get a postal vote? I had one and it changed back to an in person vote as I didn't get around to reapplying for the postal vote, I recall it involving some complex process.

    Imo the reasons were:

    1. Foregone conclusion
    2. Tory abstentions
    3. General disillusionment with politics
    4. Voter ID
    5. Problems with postal voting
    6. Forgone conclusion
    don't forget
    7. it was July so people were more interested in the Euros and their next holiday
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 69,033
    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    darkage said:

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    I suspect this is based on outdated ideas about the young always being left wing.
    Far be it from our PBTories to suspect that some things might actually be done because they are the right thing to do.

    It's like QALYs in medicine. The young have to put up with the result for a lot longer than the old.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    edited July 6
    Adjudication at Inverness now!

    Alas, no pics of the ballots, little drawings, etc.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,767
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    ?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,567
    Come on Switzer... er, I mean England :lol:
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    I will be interested to see how that works, after what they (and, let's not forget, the LDs) got up to in Scotland. Maybe someone can do an informed header piece, in all seriousness.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,696

    darkage said:

    I just wonder if the low turnout is connected in some way to rules that make it harder to get a postal vote? I had one and it changed back to an in person vote as I didn't get around to reapplying for the postal vote, I recall it involving some complex process.

    Imo the reasons were:

    1. Foregone conclusion
    2. Tory abstentions
    3. General disillusionment with politics
    4. Voter ID
    5. Problems with postal voting
    6. Forgone conclusion
    Plus generally shite campaign, particularly on the TV debate front.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    spudgfsh said:

    darkage said:

    I just wonder if the low turnout is connected in some way to rules that make it harder to get a postal vote? I had one and it changed back to an in person vote as I didn't get around to reapplying for the postal vote, I recall it involving some complex process.

    Imo the reasons were:

    1. Foregone conclusion
    2. Tory abstentions
    3. General disillusionment with politics
    4. Voter ID
    5. Problems with postal voting
    6. Forgone conclusion
    don't forget
    7. it was July so people were more interested in the Euros and their next holiday
    8. In Scotland and NI, often actually on hols.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,567
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Looking forward to Sunak's cabinet reshuffle on Monday following some disappointing results on Thursday.

    Could be interesting to see who gets a more prominent platform as a result. Might be some new faces from the usual suspects.
    Claire Coutinho as Shadow Chancellor I think/hope/guess. Hunt Chairman.
    Tugendhat as shadow Foreign Secretary would be interesting.
    I think pushing the centrists to higher profile shadow positions will be the plan. Maybe save Northern Ireland for Suella.
    The last thing we want is restart the civil war in Northern Ireland. Make Braverman Shadow Solicitor General, at best.
    NI representation:

    9 Nationalist MPs
    8 Unionists (inc. 1 indy)
    1 Alliance (non-sectarian).
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,363
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    Can you explain Labour's 'reforms' in full. As a resident I'm not fully with it.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,657
    You could liven up your cities, by importing a few creatures like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYvPpb9mAQ

    (The scene in the news story is a few miles north of where I live. Bothell is quite close to Seattle, and to another little town you may have heard of, Redmond.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bothell,_Washington )
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 69,033
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    I will be interested to see how that works, after what they (and, let's not forget, the LDs) got up to in Scotland. Maybe someone can do an informed header piece, in all seriousness.

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    Can you explain Labour's 'reforms' in full. As a resident I'm not fully with it.
    I keep meaning to, and not having time! I'll try to make time tomorrow afternoon.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,017
    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    I suspect this is based on outdated ideas about the young always being left wing.
    Many years ago, my other half wrote a paper for a Tory think-tank on the problem with generalising from "many young people" to "all young people" and the foolishness of abandoning "the youth vote" on that basis.
    In a lot of ways the left are now the establishment, at least in terms of culture - to a historically unprecedented degree, so the 'young vote' could react against that.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    edited July 6

    You could liven up your cities, by importing a few creatures like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYvPpb9mAQ

    (The scene in the news story is a few miles north of where I live. Bothell is quite close to Seattle, and to another little town you may have heard of, Redmond.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bothell,_Washington )

    You want some more? We have millions. I'm sure we can spare a few.

    https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/rangers-fc-fan.html?sortBy=relevant

    PS. Have heard of Redmond. Boeing and all.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,567

    You could liven up your cities, by importing a few creatures like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PYvPpb9mAQ

    (The scene in the news story is a few miles north of where I live. Bothell is quite close to Seattle, and to another little town you may have heard of, Redmond.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bothell,_Washington )

    On Wednesday, I saw Three Lion cubs in London... Zoo.




  • Options
    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,048
    ydoethur said:

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    You tried Gerrymandering and voter suppression.
    And, now, Labour will try the same. Just as they did last time with their selection of electoral systems as well.

    Only place I can think of it's actually worked is Wales.
    Although they are of course now gerrymandering it further. Just to be on the safe side.
    If Labour wanted to gerrymander the Senedd all they need do is have 60 FPTP seats.

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    I will be interested to see how that works, after what they (and, let's not forget, the LDs) got up to in Scotland. Maybe someone can do an informed header piece, in all seriousness.

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    Can you explain Labour's 'reforms' in full. As a resident I'm not fully with it.
    I keep meaning to, and not having time! I'll try to make time tomorrow afternoon.
    Take your time - we're all a bit tired and some of us emotional and grizzling.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,372
    kle4 said:

    It's the online voting one that worries me, I really don't think people are thinking of the complexities, or the advantages of a low tech option as we have now. Nor do I think it would appreciably affect turnout - it is not hard to vote now, if someone would be put off by what is there they would would find another reason to be put off.

    Votes at 16 I am in the majority opposing, but it is a manifesto promise and simple to do, so it will happen, but it is interesting how it became an article of faith in some parties despite lacking clear public support.

    Thinking further about online voting since the discussion here a couple of days ago. Online is how people want to do things now. I think that need/desire can be addressed safely.

    The biggest additional challenge IMO for voting systems beyond anything else you might want to do securely online is the fact everyone votes at once. The main safeguard against system performance issues, at least initially, is to ensure alternative ways of voting are always available, even if the system goes down. I would ramp up slowly across several elections possibly starting with certain local elections, probably using the Government Gateway.

    This risk managed implementation of very big systems is part of my day job FWIW. I don't see any obvious show stoppers with a cautious rollout of online voting. Going to paper isn't an option where I work but getting it wrong would have serious consequences. I don't work for Fujitsu.





    Thinking about by
  • Options
    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,048
    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    It's the online voting one that worries me, I really don't think people are thinking of the complexities, or the advantages of a low tech option as we have now. Nor do I think it would appreciably affect turnout - it is not hard to vote now, if someone would be put off by what is there they would would find another reason to be put off.

    Votes at 16 I am in the majority opposing, but it is a manifesto promise and simple to do, so it will happen, but it is interesting how it became an article of faith in some parties despite lacking clear public support.

    Thinking further about online voting since the discussion here a couple of days ago. Online is how people want to do things now. I think that need/desire can be addressed safely.

    The biggest additional challenge IMO for voting systems beyond anything else you might want to do securely online is the fact everyone votes at once. The main safeguard against system performance issues, at least initially, is to ensure alternative ways of voting are always available, even if the system goes down. I would ramp up slowly across several elections possibly starting with certain local elections, probably using the Government Gateway.

    This risk managed implementation of very big systems is part of my day job FWIW. I don't see any obvious show stoppers with a cautious rollout of online voting. Going to paper isn't an option where I work but getting it wrong would have serious consequences. I don't work for Fujitsu.
    Here's my question to anyone serious about online voting - how do you know that the result you get is correct?
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 1,765
    JACK_W said:

    To finish first :

    1. Lord Falconer's Speech

    2. Inverness Recount

    3. England Euro Campaign

    4. SeanT's Latest PB Incarnation

    Has Lord Falconer resigned yet?
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,449
    edited July 6
    darkage said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    I suspect this is based on outdated ideas about the young always being left wing.
    Many years ago, my other half wrote a paper for a Tory think-tank on the problem with generalising from "many young people" to "all young people" and the foolishness of abandoning "the youth vote" on that basis.
    In a lot of ways the left are now the establishment, at least in terms of culture - to a historically unprecedented degree, so the 'young vote' could react against that.
    I think it is even more complicated than that. Who knows what range of views young people will have in 5 years time? What will be the "consensus" views and what the outliers, and whether any or all of those will overlap with existing political blocs?

    Now is a great time for the Conservatives to do their periodic chameleon thing and emerge as a party with the practical politics that inspire and shape the next generation, while Labour have to deal with the messy business of being in government.

    ETA: for the avoidance of doubt, I do not see who is going to kick that process off. But I live in hope.
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,193
    rcs1000 said:

    Are the LibDems going to do one of those wanky Shadow Shadow Cabinets?

    Give then their day in the sun. A few weeks ago their entire parliamentary party could fit in a couple of taxis.
    The SNP can now fit in a campervan.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,363
    JACK_W said:

    To finish first :

    1. Lord Falconer's Speech

    2. Inverness Recount

    3. England Euro Campaign

    4. SeanT's Latest PB Incarnation

    I thought you were dead.
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,451
    The people calling everyone they don't like fascists are clearly just woke fascists
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,767
    Carnyx said:

    Adjudication at Inverness now!

    Alas, no pics of the ballots, little drawings, etc.

    The tension is building towards a crescendo at the Dingwall Counting Centre... Unfortunately the live stream is shite:

    "Due to the use if [sic] satellite technology, the stream may buffer, please be patient the stream will return"

    One suspects that the satellite "technology" is of ex-Soviet vintage. On loan from Mr V Putin, Moscow.

    But in the short intervals when the images are actually moving, it's gripping stuff. Rivals the England football team for entertainment and sheer flair.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    mwadams said:

    darkage said:

    I'm absolutely opposed to extending the franchise to allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. They are children.

    18 is the age of majority for a reason.

    I don't agree with it, but let them if it makes them feel better.

    We tried rebalancing constituencies and introducing voter ID.

    It made absolutely no difference in the end.
    I suspect this is based on outdated ideas about the young always being left wing.
    Many years ago, my other half wrote a paper for a Tory think-tank on the problem with generalising from "many young people" to "all young people" and the foolishness of abandoning "the youth vote" on that basis.
    In a lot of ways the left are now the establishment, at least in terms of culture - to a historically unprecedented degree, so the 'young vote' could react against that.
    I think it is even more complicated than that. Who knows what range of views young people will have in 5 years time? What will be the "consensus" views and what the outliers, and whether any or all of those will overlap with existing political blocs?

    Now is a great time for the Conservatives to do their periodic chameleon thing and emerge as a party with the practical politics that inspire and shape the next generation, while Labour have to deal with the messy business of being in government.

    ETA: for the avoidance of doubt, I do not see who is going to kick that process off. But I live in hope.
    The Tories are a bunch of lizards? Mr Icke, all is forgiven.

    But seriously, that's a good comment. And there'll be more emphasis on the climate crisis.

    Hooray, tax spreadsheet done, now off to see if I remembered to put the Cotes de Provence rosé in the fridge.
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 1,765
    edited July 6
    The snide and in some cases plain nasty comments on here today about Farage and Reform are quite nasty.

    For the first time since the 1661 election, the Cavalier-Anti Exclusionist-Court-Tory-Conservative party has not got a parliamentary monopoly on its wing of politics in England/Great Britain.

    And they do not like it, they do not like it one bit, they do not like it up 'em.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,767
    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Adjudication at Inverness now!

    Alas, no pics of the ballots, little drawings, etc.

    The tension is building towards a crescendo at the Dingwall Counting Centre... Unfortunately the live stream is shite:

    "Due to the use if [sic] satellite technology, the stream may buffer, please be patient the stream will return"

    One suspects that the satellite "technology" is of ex-Soviet vintage. On loan from Mr V Putin, Moscow.

    But in the short intervals when the images are actually moving, it's gripping stuff. Rivals the England football team for entertainment and sheer flair.
    There's currently a bloke wandering around in the foreground with a toddler on his shoulders.

    Meanwhile, near one of the fire exits, can I see a body being stretchered out? Probably my fevered imagination, although it's entirely possible that folk will start to die of sheer old age waiting for this declaration.

    Truly, all human life may be seen at the Dingwall Counting Centre. There's probably a novel in this somewhere.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,544
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Adjudication at Inverness now!

    Alas, no pics of the ballots, little drawings, etc.

    The tension is building towards a crescendo at the Dingwall Counting Centre... Unfortunately the live stream is shite:

    "Due to the use if [sic] satellite technology, the stream may buffer, please be patient the stream will return"

    One suspects that the satellite "technology" is of ex-Soviet vintage. On loan from Mr V Putin, Moscow.

    But in the short intervals when the images are actually moving, it's gripping stuff. Rivals the England football team for entertainment and sheer flair.
    There's currently a bloke wandering around in the foreground with a toddler on his shoulders.

    Meanwhile, near one of the fire exits, can I see a body being stretchered out? Probably my fevered imagination, although it's entirely possible that folk will start to die of sheer old age waiting for this declaration.

    Truly, all human life may be seen at the Dingwall Counting Centre. There's probably a novel in this somewhere.
    I noticed that heat death of the Universe wasn't on @TSE's list.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,696
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Adjudication at Inverness now!

    Alas, no pics of the ballots, little drawings, etc.

    The tension is building towards a crescendo at the Dingwall Counting Centre... Unfortunately the live stream is shite:

    "Due to the use if [sic] satellite technology, the stream may buffer, please be patient the stream will return"

    One suspects that the satellite "technology" is of ex-Soviet vintage. On loan from Mr V Putin, Moscow.

    But in the short intervals when the images are actually moving, it's gripping stuff. Rivals the England football team for entertainment and sheer flair.
    There's currently a bloke wandering around in the foreground with a toddler on his shoulders.

    Meanwhile, near one of the fire exits, can I see a body being stretchered out? Probably my fevered imagination, although it's entirely possible that folk will start to die of sheer old age waiting for this declaration.

    Truly, all human life may be seen at the Dingwall Counting Centre. There's probably a novel in this somewhere.
    Dingwall Counting Centre is my new band name.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,708
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Adjudication at Inverness now!

    Alas, no pics of the ballots, little drawings, etc.

    The tension is building towards a crescendo at the Dingwall Counting Centre... Unfortunately the live stream is shite:

    "Due to the use if [sic] satellite technology, the stream may buffer, please be patient the stream will return"

    One suspects that the satellite "technology" is of ex-Soviet vintage. On loan from Mr V Putin, Moscow.

    But in the short intervals when the images are actually moving, it's gripping stuff. Rivals the England football team for entertainment and sheer flair.
    There's currently a bloke wandering around in the foreground with a toddler on his shoulders.

    Meanwhile, near one of the fire exits, can I see a body being stretchered out? Probably my fevered imagination, although it's entirely possible that folk will start to die of sheer old age waiting for this declaration.

    Truly, all human life may be seen at the Dingwall Counting Centre. There's probably a novel in this somewhere.
    And pishing it down outside, too.
  • Options
    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,048

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Online voting.............

    A contract with Fujitsu would have ensured by accident rather than design stable Conservative Governments on 110% of all votes cast with Labour and Reform on minus 55% each.
    And about four million prosecutions for impersonation.
    Disgusting, un British and cynical though voter ID is and I register my protest every time I'm asked for it - compared to what Labour are attempting in Wales it's bungling amateurism.
    Can you explain Labour's 'reforms' in full. As a resident I'm not fully with it.
    Basically it's pairing the existing 32 Westminster constituencies into 16 Senedd constituencies and then having each elect six members with closed-list d'Hondt. It would be more likely to result in a Labour overall majority than the current system but at the risk of them having a lower floor.
This discussion has been closed.