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Why being English is a bad sign – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,864
edited July 4 in General
Why being English is a bad sign – politicalbetting.com

And as the share of people intending to vote for smaller parties has shrunk over the last year, the "third" parties that people have chosen have more-or-less lined up with their English identity pic.twitter.com/2AiiNT4P3x

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,230
    Two firsts in one day?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,399
    Is that polling for residents in England only?
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527

    Farooq said:

    I've had only one leaflet this election. It arrived yesterday by post. It was from the Labour Party.

    Now I realise this is a safe seat but candidates get a free mailshot and printing leaflets is cheap so what's going on? Is the next scandal that parties are spending money in one constituency but accounting for it in another, or do they just not care any more in these social media days?

    It opens with a big red banner saying Change, Keir Starmer, Leader of the Labour Party, so I imagine Labour's marketing is run by Corbynistas or people who know HIGNFY is off the air.

    Speaking of which, there is a compilation of HIGNFYs from previous elections at:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tASp2Hd3XVk

    The free leaflet thing has been bothering me, too. I've had contact from 4 of the 5 parties here, but not Labour. @RochdalePioneers have you had a Labour leaflet?

    I know Labour have basically no ground game in this area, but they've a chance to build supportership here in this election. It makes a difference. I was open to voting for them this time if they could get a bit of moment going and oust the Tories here. But no campaign = no vote from me. With one week to go I've narrowed it down to SNP (likely) and Lib Dem (not likely).
    Other candidates are Con (get fucked) and Reform (die).
    Haven’t Labour dropped official backing for their candidate in your constituency? I guess it makes supporting them publicly a bit awks.
    Very good point
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,398
    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,387
    Carnyx said:

    Is that polling for residents in England only?

    As far as I can see yes, it was conducted as part of a GB wide poll, there may be a Scottish and Welsh elements that may be released later.

    Pollsters are known to stagger their releases.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,263
    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.


  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,263
    edited June 29
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    That's 400 seats - where are the other MPs - take it you mean Labour 450.

    Why would the 65 Tory MPs accept Farage as leader?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    - it won't
    - no
    - also no
    - yes it will be fraught anyway
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,905
    edited June 29
    Perhaps its due to growing up as an English Cricket fan in Australia in the 90s, but I've always considered myself much more English than British.

    I totally despite the vile Putinist racists of Reform as do most other English, not British, people on that survey.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,509
    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,374
    Me ne frego
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    I consider myself "not English". Don't mind what comes before that: Scottish, British, European. That's not the important part.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,905
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    I'd bloody hope so!

    Most Conservatives still voting Conservative on this site despite Farage and won't vote for him. I'd hope at least 6 of the surviving Tory MPs would think the same which is all it would take to defect to the Lib Dems on those numbers (assuming Lab and others make up the missing MPs).
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,020
    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.


    Classic right wing populism trick copying what Orban and PIS have done to national broadcasting.
  • Options
    TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 661
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    Lib won't take cons because sir Ed does not want faeces through the letterbox every day for 5 years. The correct answer is that labour lends lib enough "defectors" to get it de facto control of both government and opposition
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817
    edited June 29

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
  • Options
    bobbobbobbob Posts: 74
    Here’s what a REAL right wing govt would do:

    1. Introduce a flat tax to replace ALL current taxes (NI/VAT/CGT/Council Tax/ULEZ/fuel tax/ved/“apprenticeship levy”/sugar tax/sin taxes, the lot). Save BILLIONS on bureaucracy and let people. Show how much tax People are really paying !

    2 Privatise the BBC, channel 4, post office, Transport for London, national rail, public owned museums/galleries/british library, libraries etc. Not what the govt should be doing !

    3. Policy of gov outsourcing as much ans possible and reform to ensure bidding and competition and more efficient quicker procurement. Esp councils !!

    4. Long term goal to remove ALL state subsidies on transport, higher education, Hollywood “tax credits” and similar bs.

    5. Reform planning and building regulations to remove almost all restrictions. Remove listed buildings, “area of natural beauty”, grrenbelt and similar bs to allow easier demolition and building. Have a decade of national renewal ! New mass housing, wind farms, building new transport eithout govt getting in the way

    6. Bonfire of red tape. Reform licensing housing and street trading laws. Look at “all will” employment for both employees and employers to improve job flexibility by making it easier to hire and move jobs to create growth

    Prob more but that’s where I’d start
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,318
    Farooq said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    - it won't
    - no
    - also no
    - yes it will be fraught anyway
    I agree with all of that except "-also no" - in the unlikely event of the first two propositions coming to pass.

    I am *sure* there would be at least one Conservative MP who had the moral fibre not to cave to whatever demands Farage would make for that deal, and be unable to sit with them on the opposition benches.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,509
    eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.


    Classic right wing populism trick copying what Orban and PIS have done to national broadcasting.
    He’s got a nerve, after all the coverage he’s had over the years.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,398
    edited June 29
    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    That's 400 seats - where are the other MPs - take it you mean Labour 450.

    Why would the 65 Tory MPs accept Farage as leader?
    Yeah, sorry. 450 Lab (250 majority) Lib 70, Con 65, Ref 15

    Con and Ref merge to stop Libs being official opposition to Lab government. Farage become LOTO.

    BUT...

    Some Con MPs quit for Lib-Dems, so Libs still become official Opposition.

    With the polling we're seeing this scenario has got to be a possibility after the election?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    mwadams said:

    Farooq said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    - it won't
    - no
    - also no
    - yes it will be fraught anyway
    I agree with all of that except "-also no" - in the unlikely event of the first two propositions coming to pass.

    I am *sure* there would be at least one Conservative MP who had the moral fibre not to cave to whatever demands Farage would make for that deal, and be unable to sit with them on the opposition benches.
    As @Tweedledee ably points out, it would require both parties to consent. I'm certain it won't happen.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,505
    edited June 29
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    Pure guesswork, as so much of this would be new both constitutionally and practically.

    My guess: The speaker will judge who is LOTO on the basis of the number of unambiguous firm commitments from MPs to a party; party meaning a party that stood candidates in the election. This will happen and be judged on day 1 of parliament sitting. The speaker will take final soundings from Davey and ?Rishi the evening before.

    So there will be a few days for horsetrading with a chance to switch loyalties. They won't be dull

    Other guesses: The LDs and centrist Tories will work together to ensure that Reform are no part of HMLO.

    Only certainty: Tim Shipman will write a book about it. Matt cartoons will be brilliant. Like this classic:

    https://telegraph.newsprints.co.uk/37507349-matt-cartoon-university-i-m-studying-politics-the-course-covers-the-period-from-8am-on-thursday-to-lunchtime-on-friday/
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,225
    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817
    If we get a ConRef merger will we get a Dr David Bull or Ben Habib led Continuity Reform emerging?!
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,020
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    To "grab" the role of oppsition, the two parties would have to make at least a formal alliance, like the SDP/Liberal alliance in the 80's. I can't see either the cnservatives or Reform wanting that, it is much more likely that a big rivalry between the two parties will emerge with some MPs moving from one to the other party.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,398

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    Lib won't take cons because sir Ed does not want faeces through the letterbox every day for 5 years. The correct answer is that labour lends lib enough "defectors" to get it de facto control of both government and opposition
    Hmmm... Lab > Lib to enable Libs to still be the official Opposition isn't a scenario I'd thought of lol! 😂
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,973
    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,020

    Nigel Farage: "IT IS A DISGRACE THAT REFORM ARE NOT GIVEN COVERAGE BY THE BBC"
    BBC: asks Nigel Farage questions
    Nigel Farage: "NO, NOT LIKE THAT!"

    Farage wants the BBC to ask him the questions he wants to answer....that's not how politics in a free democracy works.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,263
    algarkirk said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    Pure guesswork, as so much of this would be new both constitutionally and practically.

    My guess: The speaker will judge who is LOTO on the basis of the number of unambiguous firm commitments from MPs to a party; party meaning a party that stood candidates in the election. This will happen and be judged on day 1 of parliament sitting. The speaker will take final soundings from Davey and ?Rishi the evening before.

    So there will be a few days for horsetrading with a chance to switch loyalties. They won't be dull

    Other guesses: The LDs and centrist Tories will work together to ensure that Reform are no part of HMLO.

    Only certainty: Tim Shipman will write a book about it. Matt cartoons will be brilliant. Like this classic:

    https://telegraph.newsprints.co.uk/37507349-matt-cartoon-university-i-m-studying-politics-the-course-covers-the-period-from-8am-on-thursday-to-lunchtime-on-friday/
    Surely 10pm Thursday because little happens during Thursday day time - people vote but that's it..
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,025
    Anyway, decided to break up my journey today by hopping off at Salisbury for the night. What a beautiful city centre and I can see the glorious spire from my room.

    You can travel all over the world but the British Isles still have a huge amount to offer.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,225

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    Lib won't take cons because sir Ed does not want faeces through the letterbox every day for 5 years. The correct answer is that labour lends lib enough "defectors" to get it de facto control of both government and opposition

    Who gets the other 260 seats?

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 78,623
    edited June 29
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, decided to break up my journey today by hopping off at Salisbury for the night. What a beautiful city centre and I can see the glorious spire from my room.

    You can travel all over the world but the British Isles still have a huge amount to offer.

    Its very popular with Russian tourists....
  • Options
    novanova Posts: 663
    Leon said:

    nova said:

    nova said:

    I am begging Tories, please don't copy 2019 Labour and tell the voters they are wrong. It's really not what you want to do.

    To be fair, if Starmer gets election based on a platform of staying out of the single market, cutting immigration, and being tougher on crime, the Tories will be able to say that they won the argument. They just weren't seen as credible people to deliver it.
    And, Starmer either delivers on it, and better than the Tories did, or his vote collapses in 5 years time too.

    This isn't a game.
    According to polling of Labour voters their main priorities are healthcare, housing, and the economy, so that's where he needs to deliver.

    Still, cutting immigration won't be hard. That's been neatly set up for any party with the recent record numbers.
    Sunak's most recent measures will probably take effect within 12-18 months, so Starmer will be lucky there too.

    He'll have a big problems with the boats though. My guess is the smugglers test his resolve as they'll assume a Labour government will be "softer".
    Agree that immigration is coming down whatever happens with changes already in the pipeline, and I suspect that was why Labour were happy to take an easy win by committing to it.

    The boats will be harder, although it's still relatively small numbers, and there are probably easier ways to solve it than totally smashing the gangs. I suspect a few slightly easier routes, quicker decisions and quicker returns, plus offshore processing etc., might make it less appealing. The numbers involved are tiny compared to current immigration figures, so being a little more relaxed about it all might be the easiest plan.

    But even if they fail, it's not an issue that seems to significantly bother most Labour voters. If a few tens of thousands of people arriving by boats, who will likely never impact on your life, is one of your major concerns, you're probably not voting Labour whatever happens.
    Delusional on so many levels
    Explain your thinking then?

    Plenty of polling to suggest that the people actually voting Labour are least bothered about immigration.

    People who are overly concerned by small boats are not voting Labour in significant numbers.

    The number of people coming by boats isn't huge, and if they came in a different way, it's unlikely they'd even be noticed.

    So, tell me, why would it be such a big problem for Labour?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,217

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I've become more English and less British since the 1990s. I think that's probably true of everyone. That said, the pasrt of the world that feels to me like home does include a fair bit of Scotland (probably coincidentally the bits my maternal ancestors came from - Edinburgh, Stirlingshire, Perthshire and some of the borders) and excludes large parts of the South East of England. So still some blurring.
    I am also enthusiastically and patriotically Stopfordian, Greater Mancunian, Cestrian, North Western and Northern.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 78,623

    If we get a ConRef merger will we get a Dr David Bull or Ben Habib led Continuity Reform emerging?!

    Wasn't Dr David Bull a mainstream Cameron Tory at one point?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,874
    edited June 29

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817

    If we get a ConRef merger will we get a Dr David Bull or Ben Habib led Continuity Reform emerging?!

    Wasn't Dr David Bull a mainstream Cameron Tory at one point?
    Natalie Elphicke was a Tory once, too!
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,077
    M
    eristdoof said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    To "grab" the role of oppsition, the two parties would have to make at least a formal alliance, like the SDP/Liberal alliance in the 80's. I can't see either the cnservatives or Reform wanting that, it is much more likely that a big rivalry between the two parties will emerge with some MPs moving from one to the other party.
    I actually see a CON/REF "Alliance" being more likely than a formal merger/reverse takeover, at least to start with.

    It requires the Tories to have a shocker and it requires Reform to grab a fair few seats and a lot of second places.

    I could see a scenario where it is advantageous for each party to maintain its separate identity/voter base but caucus together and build a voter coalition, reaching parts the other cannot. It would be a fundamental reshaping of the UK political landscape but if the Tories fall below 100 seats we cannot rule out such radical moves.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,620

    If we get a ConRef merger will we get a Dr David Bull or Ben Habib led Continuity Reform emerging?!

    Wasn't Dr David Bull a mainstream Cameron Tory at one point?
    Then he went to Shit.

    Sorry @Farooq
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817
    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    My reflex is that we shouldn't
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,620
    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    It makes the thread fractionally more interesting.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,374
    nova said:

    Leon said:

    nova said:

    nova said:

    I am begging Tories, please don't copy 2019 Labour and tell the voters they are wrong. It's really not what you want to do.

    To be fair, if Starmer gets election based on a platform of staying out of the single market, cutting immigration, and being tougher on crime, the Tories will be able to say that they won the argument. They just weren't seen as credible people to deliver it.
    And, Starmer either delivers on it, and better than the Tories did, or his vote collapses in 5 years time too.

    This isn't a game.
    According to polling of Labour voters their main priorities are healthcare, housing, and the economy, so that's where he needs to deliver.

    Still, cutting immigration won't be hard. That's been neatly set up for any party with the recent record numbers.
    Sunak's most recent measures will probably take effect within 12-18 months, so Starmer will be lucky there too.

    He'll have a big problems with the boats though. My guess is the smugglers test his resolve as they'll assume a Labour government will be "softer".
    Agree that immigration is coming down whatever happens with changes already in the pipeline, and I suspect that was why Labour were happy to take an easy win by committing to it.

    The boats will be harder, although it's still relatively small numbers, and there are probably easier ways to solve it than totally smashing the gangs. I suspect a few slightly easier routes, quicker decisions and quicker returns, plus offshore processing etc., might make it less appealing. The numbers involved are tiny compared to current immigration figures, so being a little more relaxed about it all might be the easiest plan.

    But even if they fail, it's not an issue that seems to significantly bother most Labour voters. If a few tens of thousands of people arriving by boats, who will likely never impact on your life, is one of your major concerns, you're probably not voting Labour whatever happens.
    Delusional on so many levels
    Explain your thinking then?

    Plenty of polling to suggest that the people actually voting Labour are least bothered about immigration.

    People who are overly concerned by small boats are not voting Labour in significant numbers.

    The number of people coming by boats isn't huge, and if they came in a different way, it's unlikely they'd even be noticed.

    So, tell me, why would it be such a big problem for Labour?
    Just apply what cognitive skills you have to the facts of the matter. I have to get a boat from glorious and Edenic Ushant back to the European mainland

    😞
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,374
    Honestly this flowery gorgeous island is Paradisical in the sun. It’s like Enid Blyton with everyone cycling everywhere - kids and teens and families - except at the end everyone drinks huge amounts of wine and cider instead of ginger beer. Even the babies
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 19,874
    edited June 29
    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    Back to political strategy.

    Stop triangulating.

    Or do a U-turn - that is, 180 degrees.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,374
    Also it doesn’t get many tourists. It’s only an hour from le conquet but people can’t be bothered. Local hotelier said “we don’t even get French people. Just bretons”. Its not fashionable like belle ile

    But that makes it intensely charming and laid back. And the coast is magnificent
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,620
    MattW said:

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    Back to political strategy.

    Stop triangulating.
    We can en compass both, surely?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 78,623
    edited June 29
    Leon said:

    Honestly this flowery gorgeous island is Paradisical in the sun. It’s like Enid Blyton with everyone cycling everywhere - kids and teens and families - except at the end everyone drinks huge amounts of wine and cider instead of ginger beer. Even the babies

    Given this is France, I hope they are also enjoying ciggies as well....including the babies.
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    novanova Posts: 663
    Leon said:

    nova said:

    Leon said:

    nova said:

    nova said:

    I am begging Tories, please don't copy 2019 Labour and tell the voters they are wrong. It's really not what you want to do.

    To be fair, if Starmer gets election based on a platform of staying out of the single market, cutting immigration, and being tougher on crime, the Tories will be able to say that they won the argument. They just weren't seen as credible people to deliver it.
    And, Starmer either delivers on it, and better than the Tories did, or his vote collapses in 5 years time too.

    This isn't a game.
    According to polling of Labour voters their main priorities are healthcare, housing, and the economy, so that's where he needs to deliver.

    Still, cutting immigration won't be hard. That's been neatly set up for any party with the recent record numbers.
    Sunak's most recent measures will probably take effect within 12-18 months, so Starmer will be lucky there too.

    He'll have a big problems with the boats though. My guess is the smugglers test his resolve as they'll assume a Labour government will be "softer".
    Agree that immigration is coming down whatever happens with changes already in the pipeline, and I suspect that was why Labour were happy to take an easy win by committing to it.

    The boats will be harder, although it's still relatively small numbers, and there are probably easier ways to solve it than totally smashing the gangs. I suspect a few slightly easier routes, quicker decisions and quicker returns, plus offshore processing etc., might make it less appealing. The numbers involved are tiny compared to current immigration figures, so being a little more relaxed about it all might be the easiest plan.

    But even if they fail, it's not an issue that seems to significantly bother most Labour voters. If a few tens of thousands of people arriving by boats, who will likely never impact on your life, is one of your major concerns, you're probably not voting Labour whatever happens.
    Delusional on so many levels
    Explain your thinking then?

    Plenty of polling to suggest that the people actually voting Labour are least bothered about immigration.

    People who are overly concerned by small boats are not voting Labour in significant numbers.

    The number of people coming by boats isn't huge, and if they came in a different way, it's unlikely they'd even be noticed.

    So, tell me, why would it be such a big problem for Labour?
    Just apply what cognitive skills you have to the facts of the matter. I have to get a boat from glorious and Edenic Ushant back to the European mainland

    😞
    So, just bluster and froth as usual ;)
  • Options
    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,954

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I'm surprised by just how few cars and other vehicles these days continue to display the once all too familiar black and white oval "GB" stickers at the rear signifying that it is registered in Great Britain. I was even more surprised very recently to notice a vehicle displaying a "UK" sticker in this style. Unless there has been a recent change, surely this contravenes the regulations. If there has been such a change, what letters are now required to signify that a particular vehicle is registered in Northern Ireland?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,470
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    Back to political strategy.

    Stop triangulating.
    We can en compass both, surely?
    Any news from the Pentagon on the state of President Biden?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,620

    Heathener said:

    Anyway, decided to break up my journey today by hopping off at Salisbury for the night. What a beautiful city centre and I can see the glorious spire from my room.

    You can travel all over the world but the British Isles still have a huge amount to offer.

    Its very popular with Russian tourists....
    They find it in spiring.
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    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,146
    I have placed the very occasional political bet in my time, but I couldn't possibly bet on this election. That's because my hopes (that the Tories get annihilated) diverge so far from my expectations (that a fair number of Tory voters return grumbling to the fold so that Labour still win by a comfortable majority, but the Tories live to fight another day). It would completely spoil the fun of election night.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,230

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    Back to political strategy.

    Stop triangulating.
    We can en compass both, surely?
    Any news from the Pentagon on the state of President Biden?
    Originally from Delaware, but now in Washington DC which strictly speaking isn’t a State at all.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,374
    I am a white Anglo-Celtic European Briton, descended from William the Conqueror and Maud Ingelric, the Saxon Princess, and also the grandson of Annie Maud Jory, last of the Cornish bal maidens, a child slave sent to the tin mines of st Agnes to break rocks, up at grass
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,398
    edited June 29

    M

    eristdoof said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Riddle me this PB - If the election ends up something like:

    Lab 250
    Lib 70
    Con 65
    Ref 15

    Do Con and Ref merge so the Right can hang on to official opposition status? But if they do merge would some Con MP's quit and join the Lib-Dems?

    The days after the election could be somewhat fraught..

    Any takers?

    To "grab" the role of oppsition, the two parties would have to make at least a formal alliance, like the SDP/Liberal alliance in the 80's. I can't see either the cnservatives or Reform wanting that, it is much more likely that a big rivalry between the two parties will emerge with some MPs moving from one to the other party.
    I actually see a CON/REF "Alliance" being more likely than a formal merger/reverse takeover, at least to start with.

    It requires the Tories to have a shocker and it requires Reform to grab a fair few seats and a lot of second places.

    I could see a scenario where it is advantageous for each party to maintain its separate identity/voter base but caucus together and build a voter coalition, reaching parts the other cannot. It would be a fundamental reshaping of the UK political landscape but if the Tories fall below 100 seats we cannot rule out such radical moves.
    Yeah, I think the chance of a Con/Ref alliance or merger is being underestimated. It seems the natural end point of what a lot of the polling is suggesting?

    The chance of Lib-Dems becoming the official Opposition is also being underestimated IMO.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,387
    Leon said:

    I am a white Anglo-Celtic European Briton, descended from William the Conqueror and Maud Ingelric, the Saxon Princess, and also the grandson of Annie Maud Jory, last of the Cornish bal maidens, a child slave sent to the tin mines of st Agnes to break rocks, up at grass

    So you’re really French.

    It explains a lot.
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    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,500
    If I've counted right Conservatives are favourites in 96 seats, some at odds against. This is somewhat higher than most predictions I've seen to have them winning, with them in danger of slipping behind the LDs.

    Not sure if there is a contradiction here or which if either is more likely to be wrong. is there value in opposing Cons in some of those seats? or is winning 96 more trustworthy?
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    TheGreenMachineTheGreenMachine Posts: 1,062


    Interesting Poll.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    William the Conqueror was a fat sadist who was hated by everyone
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,386
    FPT
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    FPT.

    Roger said:

    boulay said:

    The Mail’s editorial comment is saying what many of us thought it would. Don’t allow a “Starmageddon”, seriously don't vote reform, the Tories have actually done well under the circumstances. Labour will win but vote Tory to ensure a proper opposition to stop the worst of Starmer is a summary.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13581819/Tories-say-right-angry-partys-errors-dont-let-anger-blind-perils-Starmerism.html

    The Sun will likely say exactly the same and I’m guessing the Times, Telegraph and Express too. “Its lost but you need to still vote Tory to rein in Labour”.

    Interesting that those Tory Papers so openly admit their current irrelevance. Be interesting to see which of them are no longer around in their current form when the next election happens
    Telegraph and Mail are profitable for starters, successfully moving to subscription model. Times is profitable as well.

    I would say the biggest liability is Reach group i.e. Mirror. Mirror is irrelevant, and they bought all those regional newspapers that are failing.
    The raverage age of the readership of the Telegraph must be close to 100. Its rumoured Sheikh Mansour wants to turn it into a City fanzine
    I thought it was stuffed and has definitely gone downhill, but when we have discussed this previously have on here, have been reliably informed their move to paywall has gone surprisingly well and making money. 100 year olds don't generally know how to use ipads, so i think they have attracted those over who a tad younger than than that are capable of ipad usage.
    In all seriousness It had quite a good film critic which worked for me and those who subscribed found something they wanted. The subscription was also cheap and easy to cancel and was sent online so the mechanics plus the price worked. Oddly enough I find the Guardian the most irritating. I just send an arbitrary amount of money at different times as requested but it still manages to behave like a market trader and do a big selling job before I can read anything
    Its because the Guardian still struggling to make it all work in the modern landscape. Apparently they get a good chunk of their readership from online via US audience. For whatever reason they don't want to or aren't confident to go the full pay wall route, so they have gone the begging letter approach instead. If I was them, I would bite the bullet and go pay wall. Its works for Times, the NYT, the Athletic. People are willing to pay £5-10 a month for really good content.

    I presume at some point we will get a Netflix / Spotify service for written content.
    There’s also a lot of independents making serious bank from Substack.
    Yes, some of those people are making far more than they ever would as a journalist with a mainstream publication.

    I think the landscape is if you have expert knowledge and you can provide it in a format that is interesting and entertaining, people will pay. You aren't trying to target a market of millions like a old school newspaper, you are trying to target the 1,000s or 10,000s that are really interested in whatever niche it is you know about.
    The numbers are all rather vague, but there’s at least a couple of dozen making a million dollars per year.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/newsletters/highest-earning-substacks/
    Substacks might be good for some people, but it's possible they're taking us even further down the echo chambers route.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527

    If I've counted right Conservatives are favourites in 96 seats, some at odds against. This is somewhat higher than most predictions I've seen to have them winning, with them in danger of slipping behind the LDs.

    Not sure if there is a contradiction here or which if either is more likely to be wrong. is there value in opposing Cons in some of those seats? or is winning 96 more trustworthy?

    They'll easily win more than 100. Back them.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,446
    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817

    If I've counted right Conservatives are favourites in 96 seats, some at odds against. This is somewhat higher than most predictions I've seen to have them winning, with them in danger of slipping behind the LDs.

    Not sure if there is a contradiction here or which if either is more likely to be wrong. is there value in opposing Cons in some of those seats? or is winning 96 more trustworthy?

    It's a numbers game. If the Tories get 25% as some polling and mrp output suggests I think they clear 100 by a fair few, it will be increasingly hard the further below 25 they drop. Obviously the level of the LD vote impacts top. If they end up on 10% they won't top 40 seats imo and the Tories will again be fave to get 100 plus.
    Fwiw I think the polling and mrps are a fair few London seats short on the Tories, I think they'll hold at least 10 in the capital but 100 is a bit of a toss up
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,245
    Leon said:

    I am a white Anglo-Celtic European Briton, descended from William the Conqueror and Maud Ingelric, the Saxon Princess, and also the grandson of Annie Maud Jory, last of the Cornish bal maidens, a child slave sent to the tin mines of st Agnes to break rocks, up at grass

    If we go back far enough, you and I share a common ancestor from east Africa, say Somalia/Ethiopia way.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078
    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.


    That is a very snowflakey, disingeneous response from him. As you say, it indicates he thinks going on would harm him, so is a sign of weakness.

    Not really going to change much at this points, campaigns usually do not, but indicates he knows they are not as strong as they would like to project.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078
    Farooq said:

    If I've counted right Conservatives are favourites in 96 seats, some at odds against. This is somewhat higher than most predictions I've seen to have them winning, with them in danger of slipping behind the LDs.

    Not sure if there is a contradiction here or which if either is more likely to be wrong. is there value in opposing Cons in some of those seats? or is winning 96 more trustworthy?

    They'll easily win more than 100. Back them.
    I'm presently thinking between 85-115.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817
    edited June 29

    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
    He's got a reasonable chance of getting in in Waveney Valley
    He got 15% here in Norwich South in 2010
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,245
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Can we PLEASE not get into another protracted pun-fest?
    It makes the thread fractionally more interesting.
    Not the reflex I was expecting.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078
    These results on party affiliation whether people say more English than British, or not British at all, are not much of a surprise, but the extent is still interesting. For instance, I believe the LDs do even worse in Wales and Scotland than England, in vote share, but their voters as a whole are more likely to focus on the British identity.

    Of the manifestos I've read only the SDP one got into issues like an English Parliament, IIRC>
  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,077

    If I've counted right Conservatives are favourites in 96 seats, some at odds against. This is somewhat higher than most predictions I've seen to have them winning, with them in danger of slipping behind the LDs.

    Not sure if there is a contradiction here or which if either is more likely to be wrong. is there value in opposing Cons in some of those seats? or is winning 96 more trustworthy?

    I still expect them to get over 100. I can understand the polling leading some to cast doubt on that, but I think they’ll cling on in enough places to avoid complete catastrophe. There will be some who waver on the day, some Labour voters who don’t turn out, and a few Reform voters who return to the fold. That won’t make a difference to the overall result, but it will avoid a 50-seat scenario by a fair margin.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527

    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
    I know quite a few Greens in both England and Scotland and they're all in it for the environment. It's just the filter between you and the party that means you think they've gone away from it. Greens talking about green stuff doesn't propagate very far because most people who are into politics are not actually into politics, they're into political-flavoured entertainment. So Greens talking about WOKE MARXIST YOGHURT KNITTING GENDER IDEOLOGY is delicious news, and suddenly everybody else thinks they've forgotten their roots.

    That said, one or two of them that I know are hard left too.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078

    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
    He's got a reasonable chance of getting in in Waveney Valley
    He got 15% here in Norwich South in 2010
    I know they did well there in the local, er, Locals, but it feels like it came out of nowhere to have become such a likely prospect, compared to places where they have had much strength before like Bristol.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,853
    Farooq said:

    William the Conqueror was a fat sadist who was hated by everyone

    A right bastard.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,817
    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
    He's got a reasonable chance of getting in in Waveney Valley
    He got 15% here in Norwich South in 2010
    I know they did well there in the local, er, Locals, but it feels like it came out of nowhere to have become such a likely prospect, compared to places where they have had much strength before like Bristol.
    Yeah I don't have him as favourite but he will do well, they are chucking the kitchen sink at it
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,332

    Leon said:

    I am a white Anglo-Celtic European Briton, descended from William the Conqueror and Maud Ingelric, the Saxon Princess, and also the grandson of Annie Maud Jory, last of the Cornish bal maidens, a child slave sent to the tin mines of st Agnes to break rocks, up at grass

    If we go back far enough, you and I share a common ancestor from east Africa, say Somalia/Ethiopia way.
    Who got to Britain via a small boat with no papers.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,439
    eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.

    Classic right wing populism trick copying what Orban and PIS have done to national broadcasting.
    The licence fee is regressive and prosecutions disproportionally affect women. You're engaging in a culture war by framing opposition to it as right wing.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078
    edited June 29
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
    I know quite a few Greens in both England and Scotland and they're all in it for the environment. It's just the filter between you and the party that means you think they've gone away from it. Greens talking about green stuff doesn't propagate very far because most people who are into politics are not actually into politics, they're into political-flavoured entertainment. So Greens talking about WOKE MARXIST YOGHURT KNITTING GENDER IDEOLOGY is delicious news, and suddenly everybody else thinks they've forgotten their roots.

    That said, one or two of them that I know are hard left too.
    I sometimes think the wider Green movement is probably a lot more focused on the environment than the leadership of the party, the same way trade union leaders can be a lot more interested in external, national, or international matters than the rank and file. So since all parties tend to be a bit green now, it is not as interesting or distinctive for the Greens to talk about it, so the leadership finds it more interesting, and more of a way to be politically unique, to bang on about other matters.

    Their manifesto was trying a bit too hard to persuade otherwise, but most chapters being headed about X being fairer and greener. Fairer greener farming, fairer greener education, fairer greener social support. Some of it probably was, but it was a bit over the top.
  • Options

    eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.

    Classic right wing populism trick copying what Orban and PIS have done to national broadcasting.
    The licence fee is regressive and prosecutions disproportionally affect women. You're engaging in a culture war by framing opposition to it as right wing.
    Can we have the liberal William Glenn opine?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,223



    Interesting Poll.

    It is. The clear pattern is increasing support for the moderate non-crazy parties Alliance, SDLP and UUP, and declining support for TUV and Sinn Fein. DUP presumably flat because it’s taking back TUV votes while shipping some to UUP.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,332
    edited June 29
    I identify as British. I was born in England, but have heritage from all 4 nations, plus from the British diaspora in Australia, New Zealand and Jamaica.

    British just seems to fit better than English.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    edited June 29

    Farooq said:

    William the Conqueror was a fat sadist who was hated by everyone

    A right bastard.
    In every sense.
    When the fucker died, nobody could be bothered to deal with the body. They took his stuff, including his clothes, and his naked body was left to start to rot until some random came and cleaned up the mess. When he was interred, he was so bloated by decay that he burst.
  • Options
    novanova Posts: 663

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I'm surprised by just how few cars and other vehicles these days continue to display the once all too familiar black and white oval "GB" stickers at the rear signifying that it is registered in Great Britain. I was even more surprised very recently to notice a vehicle displaying a "UK" sticker in this style. Unless there has been a recent change, surely this contravenes the regulations. If there has been such a change, what letters are now required to signify that a particular vehicle is registered in Northern Ireland?
    Had a quick look, and it appears to have changed to UK instead of GB in 2021.

    There are also a lot of newer number plates with the country identifier on them, so they wouldn't need a sticker.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,223
    Foxy said:

    I identify as British. I was born in England, but have heritage from all 4 nations, plus from the British diaspora in Australia, New Zealand and Jamaica.

    British just seems to fit better than English.

    I’m British here and in most countries but Anglais/Ingles etc in Western Europe. Except in the aftermath of football tournaments.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,789

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I'm surprised by just how few cars and other vehicles these days continue to display the once all too familiar black and white oval "GB" stickers at the rear signifying that it is registered in Great Britain. I was even more surprised very recently to notice a vehicle displaying a "UK" sticker in this style. Unless there has been a recent change, surely this contravenes the regulations. If there has been such a change, what letters are now required to signify that a particular vehicle is registered in Northern Ireland?
    Another Brexit benefit?
    The government has replaced the GB identifier with UK on car stickers.
    If your license plate shows GB, you need to use a UK sticker.
    If your plate shows the UK identifier or a Union Flag, no additional sticker is needed
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,399
    MattW said:

    Always been happier describing myself as British. Half Cymro, half English, seemed logical. Even though I’ve spent most of my life in Essex.

    I'm an Angle, fortifying the Waveney against slightly more southern angles or, worse, Saxons
    A cute comment, but rather obtuse.
    Quite right!
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,332
    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    GIN1138 said:

    As a liberal right winger who wants liberal economics and liberal social rights, I always preferred the right wing party in Australia being called Liberals over the Conservatives.

    It will be interesting in the extremely unlikely, but not impossible, event that the Liberal Democrats do become the Opposition with plenty of seats in the South.

    Do they then oppose Labour from the left, like Charles Kennedy? Or the Orange Book right like Nick Clegg?

    If the left, the Conservatives will regain official opposition status the following election. The country doesn't have space for two parties of the left arguing with each other.

    If the right, then there's a chance of a future Liberal Democrat government with the Liberals in the UK, like Australia, being the party of the centre right.

    Interesting times.

    Their instinct, especially from their activists will be to oppose Labour from the left. But like you say, the real opening for the Lib-Dems to once again rise as a potential party of government would be to oppose from the center right as that's where the space will be until the Tories either get their act together or another center right party emerges.
    There is a place for a liberal green (teal) political force. That’s the direction I’d like to see the party go in.

    There’s also a possibility of a French split: populist right (Reform and Suella-Tories), socialist left (soft left of Labour leftwards), and centrist liberals incorporating the Blairites and Cameronians.
    Yellow-and-green give you lime-green or chartreuse.
    Teal is blue-and-green: Cameron's lot.
    But the Lib Dems are already limeys, aren't they? I would pin the Lib Dems as by far the greenest non-Green party in the UK.
    The Green chap on Question Time came across as quite green. A refreshing change from the mash-up of Trots, Woke and Hamas apologists that seem to make up their rank and file.
    I know quite a few Greens in both England and Scotland and they're all in it for the environment. It's just the filter between you and the party that means you think they've gone away from it. Greens talking about green stuff doesn't propagate very far because most people who are into politics are not actually into politics, they're into political-flavoured entertainment. So Greens talking about WOKE MARXIST YOGHURT KNITTING GENDER IDEOLOGY is delicious news, and suddenly everybody else thinks they've forgotten their roots.

    That said, one or two of them that I know are hard left too.
    I sometimes think the wider Green movement is probably a lot more focused on the environment than the leadership of the party, the same way trade union leaders can be a lot more interested in external, national, or international matters than the rank and file. So since all parties tend to be a bit green now, it is not as interesting or distinctive for the Greens to talk about it, so the leadership finds it more interesting, and more of a way to be politically unique, to bang on about other matters.

    Their manifesto was trying a bit too hard to persuade otherwise, but most chapters being headed about X being fairer and greener. Fairer greener farming, fairer greener education, fairer greener social support. Some of it probably was, but it was a bit over the top.
    The Greens I know are very motivated by environmental issues, but when appearing in national debates and forums the leadership get asked about other issues.

    It's a bit like Reform and immigration. The party might wasn't to talk of only one thing, but it will get asked about other things.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,223

    eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.

    Classic right wing populism trick copying what Orban and PIS have done to national broadcasting.
    The licence fee is regressive and prosecutions disproportionally affect women. You're engaging in a culture war by framing opposition to it as right wing.
    Can we have the liberal William Glenn opine?
    I think the BBC should be massively subsidised through general taxation and then set free to clean up internationally. It’s an absolutely huge brand and a soft power tool, and every pound spent on it here creates a multiplier effect in its global revenues and jobs and investment in the wider industry at home.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,399
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    I am a white Anglo-Celtic European Briton, descended from William the Conqueror and Maud Ingelric, the Saxon Princess, and also the grandson of Annie Maud Jory, last of the Cornish bal maidens, a child slave sent to the tin mines of st Agnes to break rocks, up at grass

    If we go back far enough, you and I share a common ancestor from east Africa, say Somalia/Ethiopia way.
    Who got to Britain via a small boat with no papers.
    Not necessarily: some of the ancestors qualifying for Sunil's stipulation could have walked. Doggerland and all that.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078
    Farooq said:

    William the Conqueror was a fat sadist who was hated by everyone

    Not William himself, but that does put me in mind of a quote I read of a Norman lord from around that time, in the postscript of a novel set in the period, describing one of the historical characters.

    The most powerful and the most most dangerous of the Norman baronage, he was also the most repellant in character. In a society of ruffianly, bloodthirsty men, Robert de Belleme stands out as particularly atrocious; an evil, treacherous man with an insatiable ambition and a love of cruelty for cruelty's sake; a medieval sadist, whose ingenious barbarities were proverbal among the people of that time.

    Sounds like a real go getter, I think a descendant might be standing for Reform somewhere in East Anglia.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,223
    nova said:

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I'm surprised by just how few cars and other vehicles these days continue to display the once all too familiar black and white oval "GB" stickers at the rear signifying that it is registered in Great Britain. I was even more surprised very recently to notice a vehicle displaying a "UK" sticker in this style. Unless there has been a recent change, surely this contravenes the regulations. If there has been such a change, what letters are now required to signify that a particular vehicle is registered in Northern Ireland?
    Had a quick look, and it appears to have changed to UK instead of GB in 2021.

    There are also a lot of newer number plates with the country identifier on them, so they wouldn't need a sticker.
    It was a post Brexit change. I’m not sure if there was a regulatory reason for it or just some sort of optics thing to emphasise no border in the Irish Sea.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,078
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    William the Conqueror was a fat sadist who was hated by everyone

    A right bastard.
    In every sense.
    When the fucker died, nobody could be bothered to deal with the body. They took his stuff, including his clothes, and his naked body was left to start to rot until some random came and cleaned up the mess. When he was interred, he was so bloated by decay that he burst.
    How people treat you after death can sometimes be a good indicator of what type of person you were.

    Not always though, thinking of the likes of Stalin or Mao.
  • Options
    novanova Posts: 663
    TimS said:

    nova said:

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I'm surprised by just how few cars and other vehicles these days continue to display the once all too familiar black and white oval "GB" stickers at the rear signifying that it is registered in Great Britain. I was even more surprised very recently to notice a vehicle displaying a "UK" sticker in this style. Unless there has been a recent change, surely this contravenes the regulations. If there has been such a change, what letters are now required to signify that a particular vehicle is registered in Northern Ireland?
    Had a quick look, and it appears to have changed to UK instead of GB in 2021.

    There are also a lot of newer number plates with the country identifier on them, so they wouldn't need a sticker.
    It was a post Brexit change. I’m not sure if there was a regulatory reason for it or just some sort of optics thing to emphasise no border in the Irish Sea.
    From what I can see, it was a bit of Tory PR, rather than something they had to do.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,759

    I have multiple identities:
    I am a Londoner in England
    From Camden in London
    I am English in the rest of the UK, Europe and the Commonwealth.
    British everywhere else.
    Except in the US, where I am European.

    But if I'm asked where I am from I always say England. I guess that makes me English most of all.

    I'm surprised by just how few cars and other vehicles these days continue to display the once all too familiar black and white oval "GB" stickers at the rear signifying that it is registered in Great Britain. I was even more surprised very recently to notice a vehicle displaying a "UK" sticker in this style. Unless there has been a recent change, surely this contravenes the regulations. If there has been such a change, what letters are now required to signify that a particular vehicle is registered in Northern Ireland?

    Yes, there’s been a change. A GB sticker is now non compliant.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,399
    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    William the Conqueror was a fat sadist who was hated by everyone

    Not William himself, but that does put me in mind of a quote I read of a Norman lord from around that time, in the postscript of a novel set in the period, describing one of the historical characters.

    The most powerful and the most most dangerous of the Norman baronage, he was also the most repellant in character. In a society of ruffianly, bloodthirsty men, Robert de Belleme stands out as particularly atrocious; an evil, treacherous man with an insatiable ambition and a love of cruelty for cruelty's sake; a medieval sadist, whose ingenious barbarities were proverbal among the people of that time.

    Sounds like a real go getter, I think a descendant might be standing for Reform somewhere in East Anglia.
    Interesting. But is that really a novel? Doesn't sound like Duggan. And I get a google hit for Austin Poole's From Domesday to Magna Carta.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    eristdoof said:

    eek said:

    Oh what a pity - it seems that Nigel now thinks more TV is going to cost him votes...


    Nigel Farage
    @Nigel_Farage
    I have just been invited to appear on Laura Kuenssberg.

    I’m refusing until the BBC apologises for their dishonest QT audience.

    Our state broadcaster has behaved like a political actor throughout this election.

    Reform will be campaigning vigorously to abolish the license fee.

    Classic right wing populism trick copying what Orban and PIS have done to national broadcasting.
    The licence fee is regressive and prosecutions disproportionally affect women. You're engaging in a culture war by framing opposition to it as right wing.
    Can we have the liberal William Glenn opine?
    I think the BBC should be massively subsidised through general taxation and then set free to clean up internationally. It’s an absolutely huge brand and a soft power tool, and every pound spent on it here creates a multiplier effect in its global revenues and jobs and investment in the wider industry at home.
    Thanks, it's a shame we've lost that other William Glenn and then the other, other William Glenn but this William Glenn is still nice to read occasionally.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,527
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    I am a white Anglo-Celtic European Briton, descended from William the Conqueror and Maud Ingelric, the Saxon Princess, and also the grandson of Annie Maud Jory, last of the Cornish bal maidens, a child slave sent to the tin mines of st Agnes to break rocks, up at grass

    If we go back far enough, you and I share a common ancestor from east Africa, say Somalia/Ethiopia way.
    Who got to Britain via a small boat with no papers.
    Not necessarily: some of the ancestors qualifying for Sunil's stipulation could have walked. Doggerland and all that.
    Sunil's wrong, anyway. Humans like him are much more distantly related to the dung beetle than he supposes. More like 500 million years.
This discussion has been closed.