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And From The Other Side of the Pond… – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    @MrHarryCole

    Starmer: "The PM will have to answer for his choices"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598
    Scott_xP said:

    Chameleon said:

    The tories turning off their digital campaigns is really annoying me - it can't be money, surely it can't be a reset, so what is it?

    They have to scrub every mention of 'National Service' from everything online
    Also 'Angela'. They had allgeations still up for a while at least after she was cleared. That's not efficient, either.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    The Sun I think will back Labour.

    According to Harwood they're going to fence sit as there's a big split on who to support
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385
    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cicero said:

    Help to Buy is to getting a rebrand as Freedom to Buy...

    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-to-offer-freedom-to-buy-for-young-people-with-mortgage-guarantee-scheme-13148889

    Permanent very low deposits guaranteed by government has other negatives above the risk of bad loans.

    What percentage of council houses sold are still in the hands of owner occupiers, as opposed to private rental companies?
    40% of right to buy homes are now rented out privately.

    PB likes to ignore the vast shifts in housing tenure in the last 14 years, but ultimately it's the reason why the country has become more unequal and why the number of natural Conservative voters has fallen. There is no evidence that a mass private housebuilding programme would reverse the trend and increase ownership - all the new homes will simply be hoovered up by those who have accumulated large savings.
    That shows a gross ignorance of economics and follows your typical lame excuse-making for NIMBYism.

    The reason for the vast shifts in housing tenure is the lack of building supply. If supply increases that will be reversed.

    And of course in a healthy free housing economy typically 10% of homes are unoccupied [for very good reasons] which means homes in poor condition or are too expensive don't get let out and the owner is left paying their bills/mortgage and taxes without a tenant paying them any rent.

    So why would those with savings snap up all homes if supply is increased and they can't let them out? It means price falls and people who want to buy to own have a choice, as well as tenants having a choice, on where to live.
    There he blows!

    New homes: 2.0 million
    Increase in households renting: 1.1 million
    Increase in households owning outright: 0.9 million
    Decrease in households with a mortgage: -0.4 million

    It would have certainly been worse without any new homes. But the idea that an increase in supply is the only intervention required is nonsense - wealth inequality is now far too great in the UK for that to suffice.
    That's been caused by the terrible shortage of new homes, meaning prices are far too high. Which is fundamental supply and demand in action.

    An increase in supply may not be the only intervention required, I never said it is, but it is absolutely 100% needed and would help to reverse the damage that has been done.

    Of course if supply increases and prices fall in real terms, then that would lower that inequality you mentioned too.
    The number of new homes has increased faster than the population, by a wide margin. It's actually a glut.

    The problem is that there are significant mismatches with where those houses are being built and where there is housing pressure. At risk of pissing off lots of PBers, here is my official assessment of LAs (bespoke assessments can be provided on request):

    YIMBY Gold award:

    Selby
    Huntingdonshire
    Mid Suffolk
    Telford and Wrekin
    West Lindsey

    NIMBY Black Spot of Barty Doom

    Pendle
    Thurrock
    Swale
    Epping Forest
    Peterborough

    Urban Excellence award: Southwark
    Rural Excellence award: West Devon, Cotswolds, Uttlesford
    Leon award: Camden, Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea (fewer houses, population falling)
    Trooper award: Tower Hamlets, Bedford, Tewkesbury (massive effort, but simply can’t keep up)
    Breeze block award: Barking and Dagenham, Slough, Leicester (massive population growth, no attempt to deal with it)
    Barty award: Copeland, Richmondshire, Caerphilly, Allerdale (population falling but f*** it more houses anyway)
    This glut is all in your head.

    The number of new homes has nowhere near kept up with demand.

    Again you show a shocking ignorance of the effects of demographics on housing requirements, talking again only of "population". 🤦‍♂️
    8.2% increase in homes
    6.1% increase in households
    6.3% increase in population
    Why are you lying?

    Your households figure is a lie. You know this, so why repeat it?

    People who are compelled to share a home as there's not enough houses are classed as one household. You know that, but you're repeating your lies anyway. 🤦‍♂️

    The idea that t here's been a lesser increase in household demand than population increase, when our demographic changes mean there's even further household pressures, is so obviously false its remarkable your following through on this outright blatant lie.
    The number of people per household has fallen, and overcrowding has fallen too.

    Edit: sorry, the population per household has risen* This is explained by immigrants being much more efficient users of households than say older people
    The number of people per household should have fallen as we have 4 million extra over 50s than we did. Who don't live with children.🤦‍♂️

    Immigration doesn't counter that.

    Your own data reveals the chronic housing shortage. Again!
    In most LAs, housing pressure is actually falling. It's only in about 100 where you see this acute problem, and they are mostly in our cities.
    There are 317 local authorities of England, 32 local authorities of Scotland, 22 principal councils of Wales and 11 local councils of Northern Ireland. So:
    • if you were referring to England, that's about 100/317 - say a third - of LAs under pressure.
    • If you were referring to the UK, that's 100/(317+32+22+11) = 100/382 - say 25-30% - of LAs under pressure
    That's quite a lot
    England and Wales. And yes, I agree - and some of them are under enormous pressure. Some have managed to cope to an extent, others not. And you get huge local imbalances - look at Camden's population actually falling, contributing to pressure in neighbouring areas.

    A Scottish example would be the enormous growth in housing in the Lothians, taking off some pressure in Edinburgh, even while house prices in Greenock....

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353

    The Sun I think will back Labour.

    The way the Telegraph are laying into Sunak today, even the Torygraph might not be backing the Tories.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    Leon said:

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways

    SO has been saying this for ever. Richi has apparently zero interest in the Country he is meant to be leading
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,992
    edited June 7

    So who else in the Conservative high command knew that Sunak was going to leave early ?

    Cameron and Shapps must have done as they were there.

    Any others ?

    And did those who did know agree with Sunak leaving early or try to persuade him not to ?

    If the story is true that he originally planned not to go at all, then it's possible they played a part in ensuring that he went.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,463
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Sunak asking young people to do National Service or to volunteer one weekend a month and then couldn’t be arsed to spend a full day honouring veterans . This will be another take on events .

    This latest own goal by him just feeds into other policy announcements .

    If you’re on the left liberal wing and echoing that superb post by Big G North Wales we need to be worried about what’s to come.

    So us liberal lefties are in the weird position of obviously wanting the Tories to lose but to not get pulverized and certainly we don’t want Farage winning in Clacton .

    I’m sure the other parties will have their gaffes during the campaign and will have those very bad news days but Sunak really needs to get a grip .

    No. We really really really want Farage to win and we want him to beat the Tories to death and we want him to be leader of the opposition and then become prime minister

    Look at the polls. He’s the most popular politician in the land. Sure he’s also hated. But the same was true of thatcher. Very popular with some disliked by many - she got things done and didn’t care
    What, in is history, makes you think Farage would be a competent, or even good, PM?
    He just has to be better than Sunak. Or truss. Or Boris. Or may. Or Cameron. Or brown

    It’s not a high bar and then suddenly he’s the best pm in a generation
    If you had spent any time with him, talking in a relaxed situation, you would know he’s a complete lightweight, past the golf club bonhomie he’s fucking humourless and witless. He’s amusing for ten minutes but two hours later when you’ve tried to have interesting chats you realise there is nothing there apart from the most basic simplistic opinions in a very narrow sphere of politics.

    Its why Trump loves him, he won’t have anything interesting to say, no interesting ideas but will happily parrot back what Trump says like an echo chamber and they all sit grinning about how great they are.

    I know you think you are being a bit edgy calling for him to take over but you will the first crying like a baby when you realise what you’ve got. I don’t even live in the UK and worry about what would happen if he was in charge.
    I have spent time with him and I also suspect he's rather lightweight. Does it matter? He's a tool with which to smash the Tories to death. He's too old to do grave policy damage, if he wins a lot of clever people will flock to Reform. The Right has to be renewed and the Tories cannot do it, their brand is beyond saving and at the top they are ruled by the most avaricious careerist clueless fucks. I hope they all lose their seats. Every single one of them

    And anyway, if "Farage" is lightweight what does that make Sunak? If he can "do damage", what do you think Truss did? Or Cameron? Or Boris or May? WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT 2.4 MILLION MIGRANTS IN 3 YEARS - would Farage do that? Nope

    Again and again we come back to what the Tories have acrually done in 14 years and there ain't nothing there, and what is there is nearly all disastrous. They did Brexit, but they have refused to exploit it. Fuck em. Time to die
    Never underestimate the ability of any government to cause damage.

    A Farage government would cause damage. Lots of damage.

    It may also do some good things - whether the trade off is net positive is debateable.

    As to what the Conservatives have done in government:

    Full employment
    Housing more affordable in much of the country
    National insurance reductions
    Pensions reform
    Affluent oldies
    Exam grade inflation controlled
    Big increase in NHS workforce
    Environmental improvements

    Whether you consider them positives or whether you consider them worth the negatives is again debateable.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    Starmer does a TV clip

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: Sir Keir Starmer has reacted to Rishi Sunak's apology for leaving the D-Day ceremony early

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1799017514888048853

    Still waiting for Richi to poke his head out
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127

    Chameleon said:

    The tories turning off their digital campaigns is really annoying me - it can't be money, surely it can't be a reset, so what is it?

    Old lady Brady innit! I'm telling ya, he's fighting to keep his job
    Hasn't Brady retired now? I hope that he's sitting by the pool somewhere warm, on his second G&T of the morning and counting his blessings that he's not having to deal with this mess anymore.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,653
    So what bad news has been buried today?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,463

    So who else in the Conservative high command knew that Sunak was going to leave early ?

    Cameron and Shapps must have done as they were there.

    Any others ?

    And did those who did know agree with Sunak leaving early or try to persuade him not to ?

    If the story is true that he originally planned not to go at all, then it's possible they played a part in ensuring that he went.
    Could be.

    We'll certainly hear more, possibly after the election, about who knew what and who thought what.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Starmer does a TV clip

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: Sir Keir Starmer has reacted to Rishi Sunak's apology for leaving the D-Day ceremony early

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1799017514888048853

    Still waiting for Richi to poke his head out

    Rishi has given SKS an open goal. The only conclusion is, Sunak has put a mil on Labour to win.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,653
    Farooq said:

    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    The Conservative Party
    That is not being buried, it's being proclaimed to high heaven

  • The Sun I think will back Labour.

    According to Harwood they're going to fence sit as there's a big split on who to support
    Any sources or links?

    I can't believe Rupert will fence sit. The article SKS did the other day reminded me of that one Blair did prior to 1997 on Europe.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,554
    FF43 said:

    maaarsh said:

    BobSykes said:

    I thought the low bar set by Brown in 2010 for GE campaign incompetence by a PM would never be surpassed, but Rishi is quite unbelievable in his staggering ineptitude.

    I've been broadly sympathetic to his plight and much as it pains me to do so, expecting to put a cross in the blue box despite zero prospect of a Tory hold in my ultra marginal seat even if the polls had been neck and neck.

    I'm resigned to Labour, have been for 3 years, and accept one party can't stay in power for more than 14/15 years, I'm fine with Keir as PM, dull as he'll probably be, but I'm utterly depressed at the thought of the Tories being wiped out and Labour having a stupendous majority that will keep them/ the left in power for a generation. And that I'll be totally disenfranchised if my only prospect is to vote for some Faragist rabble.

    I'm 47. I could be approaching my 70s before the country swings back to the centre right, if it ever does at all.

    I'm so depressed about this, as someone who's taken a close interest in politics for maybe 35 years. Sad.

    Tories got a 10 year majority last time, things can turn much quicker than you think.
    I admit as someone who thought Johnson had realigned politics for a generation, I was surprised how quickly it all fell apart. So we shouldn't make the same assumption about Starmer going on for ever. Nevertheless the opposite assumption is also a mistake. My impression of Starmer is he is very ambitious for a lengthy period in office and will do his utmost to win the following election.

    So Starmer might crash and burn or he might be there for years and years. Not a particularly useful assessment for a site dedicated to political predictions, I accept.
    Blair had a golden inheritance and held it together for just over a decade. Starmer is inheriting a broken country with no real plans to change it beyond a generic left-wing playbook imposed on an already record tax take. His chances of making it work are very slim.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,769
    Andy_JS said:

    Storm in a teacup.

    Cobblers. He tried to make national defence a wedge issue, absurdly claiming that only he/the Tories are patriotic and will keep us safe.

    Having done that, he tries to get out of going to Normandy at all. Campaigning - openly lying - was his priority. Reluctantly he goes to France, cosplays someone who cares about veterans, then comes back for an ITV interview which HE scheduled. To defend more lies and keep insisting his lie was not a lie despite it being completely demolished.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598
    geoffw said:

    Farooq said:

    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    The Conservative Party
    That is not being buried, it's being proclaimed to high heaven

    Don't you mean dead and stinking to h. h.?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353
    edited June 7

    The Sun I think will back Labour.

    According to Harwood they're going to fence sit as there's a big split on who to support
    Any sources or links?

    I can't believe Rupert will fence sit. The article SKS did the other day reminded me of that one Blair did prior to 1997 on Europe.
    I think we get an less than enthusiastic, "its time for a change, but we will be watching you Starmer", rather than any full blooded support.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026

    The Sun I think will back Labour.

    No. They will either not do an endorsement or endorse Reform if Farage's party overtakes Sunak's in the polls
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113
    JACK_W said:

    The Allied forces were first on the beaches, Sunak was first to leave the beaches.

    Many paid the ultimate price, Sunak may pay the ultimate political price.

    Did Chris Huhne pay the ultimate Pryce ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,769
    Chameleon said:

    The tories turning off their digital campaigns is really annoying me - it can't be money, surely it can't be a reset, so what is it?

    Perhaps they have been read the riot act with compliance. They've done something very naughty and the Electoral Commission have told them to pull them or else.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,653
    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    Farooq said:

    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    The Conservative Party
    That is not being buried, it's being proclaimed to high heaven

    Don't you mean dead and stinking to h. h.?

    I'm after the known or unknown unknowns lost amidst all this hooha

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    @breeallegretti
    A Tory candidate seeking reelection says of Sunak flying back early from D-Day commemorations:

    “This is like when Theresa May didn’t meet victims of the Grenfell Tower in 2017. Then it was The Queen who stepped in, yesterday it was Keir Starmer.”

    Concerns already being relayed to Sunak’s political secretary to make the strength of anger known.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353
    edited June 7
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Does it...I don't think colour will be the issue. I think more likely that it will severely limit anybody who is ultra wealthy from getting the top job.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    The Sun I think will back Labour.

    According to Harwood they're going to fence sit as there's a big split on who to support
    Any sources or links?

    I can't believe Rupert will fence sit. The article SKS did the other day reminded me of that one Blair did prior to 1997 on Europe.
    Tom Harwoods twitter
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,671
    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    Goodness knows. It's all piling up, and none of it is good for the Conservatives. All their defences are crumbling and all their attacks are petering out. I find it difficult to internalise the fact that the £2000 line died in less than 48hrs: an attack with some truth in it, that had previously proven lethal, was entirely ineffective. It's like that bit in Independence Day where they fire the missiles and the shields stop all of them. I have not got a clue what the Conservatives can or should do now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    edited June 7
    glw said:

    geoffw said:

     

    Is it too late for Sunak to do an Estelle Morris?

    Declare himself to be incompetent?

    He is politically incompetent.

    Sunak is plainly smart, and hard working, and by political standards reasonably honest. He was perfectly fine as Chancellor.

    The trouble is Sunak's political skills and instincts are woeful. He's absolutely out of his depth. It's a shame he didn't have enough self-awareness to realise that PM is not the job for him, a problem he shares with Gordon Brown.
    Yes, as I said at the time the Conservatives should have kept Boris, as Labour should have kept Blair then too.

    If they lost the subsequent GE fine and they could get a new leader in opposition but it would likely have been by a smaller margin than Brown lost or Sunak is likely to lose and a Boris led Conservative party would certainly not be polling less 20 to 25% or less and Reform would certainly not be on 15%+
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Does it...I don't think colour will be the issue. I think more likely that it will severely limit anybody who is ultra wealthy from getting top job.
    If it stops anyone so utterly crap from getting the job, it will have been a noble sacrifice...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,197

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Does it...I don't think colour will be the issue. I think more likely that it will severely limit anybody who is ultra wealthy from getting the top job.
    It depends how they became ultra wealthy. It wouldn’t be a barrier for someone like JK Rowling.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    Goodness knows. It's all piling up, and none of it is good for the Conservatives. All their defences are crumbling and all their attacks are petering out. I find it difficult to internalise the fact that the £2000 line died in less than 48hrs: an attack with some truth in it, that had previously proven lethal, was entirely ineffective. It's like that bit in Independence Day where they fire the missiles and the shields stop all of them. I have not got a clue what the Conservatives can or should do now.
    But that line is going to get another outing next week, when they finally broadcast the interview that was so important to film yesterday
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,463
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Not necessarily - some immigrants become 'more British than the British'.

    What it might do is kill off anyone with an image of posho globalised wealth.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353
    edited June 7

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Does it...I don't think colour will be the issue. I think more likely that it will severely limit anybody who is ultra wealthy from getting the top job.
    It depends how they became ultra wealthy. It wouldn’t be a barrier for someone like JK Rowling.
    I don't know. Sunak background should be quite inspiring. Immigrant family who worked super hard and spent every penny to give their kid opportunity and he took it with success at school and work before giving that up to enter politics. But he isn't able to even fake that he is some what in touch.

    The problem for the Tories is they have had Cameron followed by Boris and now Sunak. May and Truss were just weird. They need to find somebody with a middle ground of normal background and who isn't weird.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,392
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Not really - it has nothing to do with his skin colour, he’s just shite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    edited June 7
    nova said:

    DM_Andy said:

    So imagine Reform entering the Commons with 3 MPs (Farage, Tice and Anderson). Tories come back with less than 100 and the two parties merge. What's the mechanism for Farage to become the leader of the merged party? What's then stopping the centre-right wing of the party to walk out in an echo of 1981?

    I can't see how a party with 3 MPs would be in a position to control the party with nearer 100.

    In Canada, the example that Farage likes to mention, the new Reform party had 52 seats (which would equate to around 115 in the UK), so had a lot more power.

    If the result is 100-3, then clearly the Tory vote is still a lot more powerful in its concentration, and without PR, a lot of Tory MPs could be risking their seats to sign up with Reform. I think you're correct, that the centre-right would still hold quite a lot of power.

    Unless Reform make a huge breakthrough - and frankly, given the way things are going, it's not impossible for the Tory vote to crash, then I'd be surprised if it worked out quite so easily for Farage.

    Has anyone seen any polling on what the current Tory voters think of Reform? I know that we've seen a lot on Reform voters having a poor opinion of the Tories and Sunak (hence why a pact was probably never on the cards), but no the other way around.
    True, though if Reform got 28% and the Tories collapsed to 10% (with Labour on 43% and the LDs also on 10%) Labour get 469 seats, it is Reform who get 101 seats (close to Canadian Reform then), the LDs 38, SNP 13, Tories just 5 (close to Canadian Tories 2 then) and Greens 3
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=10&LAB=43&LIB=10&Reform=28&Green=5&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=17&SCOTLAB=36.8&SCOTLIB=8.4&SCOTReform=1.9&SCOTGreen=1.4&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=31.1&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
  • The Sun I think will back Labour.

    According to Harwood they're going to fence sit as there's a big split on who to support
    Any sources or links?

    I can't believe Rupert will fence sit. The article SKS did the other day reminded me of that one Blair did prior to 1997 on Europe.
    Tom Harwoods twitter
    Can't see anything. You'll have to link.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,992
    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    I just don't buy that explanation. He grew up here. He went to school here. He will have experienced the poppies every November. He's done two Remembrance Sundays as PM. He will have seen the criticism of other MPs for minor transgressions at similar events.

    He's clearly under a lot of pressure, and high levels of stress impair decision-making. But I think it's more that he systematically undervalues the front of house aspect of leadership, and that's the underlying instinct that led him astray, rather than that he didn't have a Grandpa with war stories. And, who knows what Grandpa Sunak did in the war in India?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    Chameleon said:

    I'm quite worried yesterdays mess may mean they cancel Saturday's planned activity of *checks notes* Sunak personally strapping Paddington Bear on a Rwanda Air plane.

    They can pivot straight to drowning puppies instead
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,747
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    It really doesn’t. Unless you think it’s because he’s inept because of his ethnicity.

    Spoiler alert, that’s not the reason.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,353
    edited June 7

    glw said:

    geoffw said:

     

    Is it too late for Sunak to do an Estelle Morris?

    Declare himself to be incompetent?

    He is politically incompetent.

    Sunak is plainly smart, and hard working, and by political standards reasonably honest. He was perfectly fine as Chancellor.

    The trouble is Sunak's political skills and instincts are woeful. He's absolutely out of his depth. It's a shame he didn't have enough self-awareness to realise that PM is not the job for him, a problem he shares with Gordon Brown.
    Sunak's other problem shared with Gordon Brown is that instead of leaning into his own image (Not Flash, just Gordon) both Sunak and Brown have allowed themselves to be directed by their Party spin teams as continuations of their predecessors, hence Sunak's faux Boris act.
    Being seen as inauthentic is a killer for a politician. Once its gone, it gone.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That’s nonsense. It just means the next migrant PM should appoint Advisors on Innate Britishness. Because it is a thing. People with deep roots in a country understand it in a way recent arrivals do not. If your great great grandfather fought at the Somme and your grandfather at Normandy then you will understand Britain and its history a lot better - in your soul - than someone whose parents arrived after WW2

    Migrants face this challenge whereevrr they go. But they also bring distinct advantages. A new eye. A fresh perspective. Fewer hang ups

    Sunak’s problem seems to be a lack of good advisors. Someone with a sense of Britains military history should have been able to say “mate. You do D day. All of it. End of”
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Scott_xP said:

    Chameleon said:

    I'm quite worried yesterdays mess may mean they cancel Saturday's planned activity of *checks notes* Sunak personally strapping Paddington Bear on a Rwanda Air plane.

    They can pivot straight to drowning puppies instead
    Not unpopular enough. I think a hot mic of slagging off old queenie may have to take it's place.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cicero said:

    Help to Buy is to getting a rebrand as Freedom to Buy...

    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-to-offer-freedom-to-buy-for-young-people-with-mortgage-guarantee-scheme-13148889

    Permanent very low deposits guaranteed by government has other negatives above the risk of bad loans.

    What percentage of council houses sold are still in the hands of owner occupiers, as opposed to private rental companies?
    40% of right to buy homes are now rented out privately.

    PB likes to ignore the vast shifts in housing tenure in the last 14 years, but ultimately it's the reason why the country has become more unequal and why the number of natural Conservative voters has fallen. There is no evidence that a mass private housebuilding programme would reverse the trend and increase ownership - all the new homes will simply be hoovered up by those who have accumulated large savings.
    That shows a gross ignorance of economics and follows your typical lame excuse-making for NIMBYism.

    The reason for the vast shifts in housing tenure is the lack of building supply. If supply increases that will be reversed.

    And of course in a healthy free housing economy typically 10% of homes are unoccupied [for very good reasons] which means homes in poor condition or are too expensive don't get let out and the owner is left paying their bills/mortgage and taxes without a tenant paying them any rent.

    So why would those with savings snap up all homes if supply is increased and they can't let them out? It means price falls and people who want to buy to own have a choice, as well as tenants having a choice, on where to live.
    There he blows!

    New homes: 2.0 million
    Increase in households renting: 1.1 million
    Increase in households owning outright: 0.9 million
    Decrease in households with a mortgage: -0.4 million

    It would have certainly been worse without any new homes. But the idea that an increase in supply is the only intervention required is nonsense - wealth inequality is now far too great in the UK for that to suffice.
    That's been caused by the terrible shortage of new homes, meaning prices are far too high. Which is fundamental supply and demand in action.

    An increase in supply may not be the only intervention required, I never said it is, but it is absolutely 100% needed and would help to reverse the damage that has been done.

    Of course if supply increases and prices fall in real terms, then that would lower that inequality you mentioned too.
    The number of new homes has increased faster than the population, by a wide margin. It's actually a glut.

    The problem is that there are significant mismatches with where those houses are being built and where there is housing pressure. At risk of pissing off lots of PBers, here is my official assessment of LAs (bespoke assessments can be provided on request):

    YIMBY Gold award:

    Selby
    Huntingdonshire
    Mid Suffolk
    Telford and Wrekin
    West Lindsey

    NIMBY Black Spot of Barty Doom

    Pendle
    Thurrock
    Swale
    Epping Forest
    Peterborough

    Urban Excellence award: Southwark
    Rural Excellence award: West Devon, Cotswolds, Uttlesford
    Leon award: Camden, Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea (fewer houses, population falling)
    Trooper award: Tower Hamlets, Bedford, Tewkesbury (massive effort, but simply can’t keep up)
    Breeze block award: Barking and Dagenham, Slough, Leicester (massive population growth, no attempt to deal with it)
    Barty award: Copeland, Richmondshire, Caerphilly, Allerdale (population falling but f*** it more houses anyway)
    Where on earth did that come from? Epping Forest is building new council homes as well as 11,000 new homes over the next decade under its Local Plan.

    Hence Nimbys have been voting LD and Independent, though the Tories just held the council in May
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,757
    edited June 7
    Things are so bad for the Rishi that SLab are airbrushing Jezza back into their collective memory.

    https://x.com/cat_headley/status/1798953416225669253?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385
    Eabhal said:

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cicero said:

    Help to Buy is to getting a rebrand as Freedom to Buy...

    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-to-offer-freedom-to-buy-for-young-people-with-mortgage-guarantee-scheme-13148889

    Permanent very low deposits guaranteed by government has other negatives above the risk of bad loans.

    What percentage of council houses sold are still in the hands of owner occupiers, as opposed to private rental companies?
    40% of right to buy homes are now rented out privately.

    PB likes to ignore the vast shifts in housing tenure in the last 14 years, but ultimately it's the reason why the country has become more unequal and why the number of natural Conservative voters has fallen. There is no evidence that a mass private housebuilding programme would reverse the trend and increase ownership - all the new homes will simply be hoovered up by those who have accumulated large savings.
    That shows a gross ignorance of economics and follows your typical lame excuse-making for NIMBYism.

    The reason for the vast shifts in housing tenure is the lack of building supply. If supply increases that will be reversed.

    And of course in a healthy free housing economy typically 10% of homes are unoccupied [for very good reasons] which means homes in poor condition or are too expensive don't get let out and the owner is left paying their bills/mortgage and taxes without a tenant paying them any rent.

    So why would those with savings snap up all homes if supply is increased and they can't let them out? It means price falls and people who want to buy to own have a choice, as well as tenants having a choice, on where to live.
    There he blows!

    New homes: 2.0 million
    Increase in households renting: 1.1 million
    Increase in households owning outright: 0.9 million
    Decrease in households with a mortgage: -0.4 million

    It would have certainly been worse without any new homes. But the idea that an increase in supply is the only intervention required is nonsense - wealth inequality is now far too great in the UK for that to suffice.
    That's been caused by the terrible shortage of new homes, meaning prices are far too high. Which is fundamental supply and demand in action.

    An increase in supply may not be the only intervention required, I never said it is, but it is absolutely 100% needed and would help to reverse the damage that has been done.

    Of course if supply increases and prices fall in real terms, then that would lower that inequality you mentioned too.
    The number of new homes has increased faster than the population, by a wide margin. It's actually a glut.

    The problem is that there are significant mismatches with where those houses are being built and where there is housing pressure. At risk of pissing off lots of PBers, here is my official assessment of LAs (bespoke assessments can be provided on request):

    YIMBY Gold award:

    Selby
    Huntingdonshire
    Mid Suffolk
    Telford and Wrekin
    West Lindsey

    NIMBY Black Spot of Barty Doom

    Pendle
    Thurrock
    Swale
    Epping Forest
    Peterborough

    Urban Excellence award: Southwark
    Rural Excellence award: West Devon, Cotswolds, Uttlesford
    Leon award: Camden, Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea (fewer houses, population falling)
    Trooper award: Tower Hamlets, Bedford, Tewkesbury (massive effort, but simply can’t keep up)
    Breeze block award: Barking and Dagenham, Slough, Leicester (massive population growth, no attempt to deal with it)
    Barty award: Copeland, Richmondshire, Caerphilly, Allerdale (population falling but f*** it more houses anyway)
    This glut is all in your head.

    The number of new homes has nowhere near kept up with demand.

    Again you show a shocking ignorance of the effects of demographics on housing requirements, talking again only of "population". 🤦‍♂️
    8.2% increase in homes
    6.1% increase in households
    6.3% increase in population
    Why are you lying?

    Your households figure is a lie. You know this, so why repeat it?

    People who are compelled to share a home as there's not enough houses are classed as one household. You know that, but you're repeating your lies anyway. 🤦‍♂️

    The idea that t here's been a lesser increase in household demand than population increase, when our demographic changes mean there's even further household pressures, is so obviously false its remarkable your following through on this outright blatant lie.
    The number of people per household has fallen, and overcrowding has fallen too.

    Edit: sorry, the population per household has risen* This is explained by immigrants being much more efficient users of households than say older people
    The number of people per household should have fallen as we have 4 million extra over 50s than we did. Who don't live with children.🤦‍♂️

    Immigration doesn't counter that.

    Your own data reveals the chronic housing shortage. Again!
    In most LAs, housing pressure is actually falling. It's only in about 100 where you see this acute problem, and they are mostly in our cities.
    There are 317 local authorities of England, 32 local authorities of Scotland, 22 principal councils of Wales and 11 local councils of Northern Ireland. So:
    • if you were referring to England, that's about 100/317 - say a third - of LAs under pressure.
    • If you were referring to the UK, that's 100/(317+32+22+11) = 100/382 - say 25-30% - of LAs under pressure
    That's quite a lot
    England and Wales. And yes, I agree - and some of them are under enormous pressure. Some have managed to cope to an extent, others not. And you get huge local imbalances - look at Camden's population actually falling, contributing to pressure in neighbouring areas.

    A Scottish example would be the enormous growth in housing in the Lothians, taking off some pressure in Edinburgh, even while house prices in Greenock....

    In fact, I think the house building in the Lothians will have the perverse effect of supercharging the housing market in Edinburgh.

    Cities are snowballing. The supply of people and demand for housing are not independent. As Edinburgh and its economy grows, more and more people will want to live and work there.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,706
    Scott_xP said:

    Starmer does a TV clip

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: Sir Keir Starmer has reacted to Rishi Sunak's apology for leaving the D-Day ceremony early

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1799017514888048853

    Still waiting for Richi to poke his head out

    Interesting that the interviewer was almost begging Starmer to accuse Sunak of lying about D Day.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Chameleon said:

    I'm quite worried yesterdays mess may mean they cancel Saturday's planned activity of *checks notes* Sunak personally strapping Paddington Bear on a Rwanda Air plane.

    They can pivot straight to drowning puppies instead
    Not unpopular enough. I think a hot mic of slagging off old queenie may have to take it's place.
    The King, who has cancer, stayed all day. Richi couldn't be arsed.

    Maybe he needs to call them "suckers and losers" ?

    Worked for Trump
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385
    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cicero said:

    Help to Buy is to getting a rebrand as Freedom to Buy...

    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-to-offer-freedom-to-buy-for-young-people-with-mortgage-guarantee-scheme-13148889

    Permanent very low deposits guaranteed by government has other negatives above the risk of bad loans.

    What percentage of council houses sold are still in the hands of owner occupiers, as opposed to private rental companies?
    40% of right to buy homes are now rented out privately.

    PB likes to ignore the vast shifts in housing tenure in the last 14 years, but ultimately it's the reason why the country has become more unequal and why the number of natural Conservative voters has fallen. There is no evidence that a mass private housebuilding programme would reverse the trend and increase ownership - all the new homes will simply be hoovered up by those who have accumulated large savings.
    That shows a gross ignorance of economics and follows your typical lame excuse-making for NIMBYism.

    The reason for the vast shifts in housing tenure is the lack of building supply. If supply increases that will be reversed.

    And of course in a healthy free housing economy typically 10% of homes are unoccupied [for very good reasons] which means homes in poor condition or are too expensive don't get let out and the owner is left paying their bills/mortgage and taxes without a tenant paying them any rent.

    So why would those with savings snap up all homes if supply is increased and they can't let them out? It means price falls and people who want to buy to own have a choice, as well as tenants having a choice, on where to live.
    There he blows!

    New homes: 2.0 million
    Increase in households renting: 1.1 million
    Increase in households owning outright: 0.9 million
    Decrease in households with a mortgage: -0.4 million

    It would have certainly been worse without any new homes. But the idea that an increase in supply is the only intervention required is nonsense - wealth inequality is now far too great in the UK for that to suffice.
    That's been caused by the terrible shortage of new homes, meaning prices are far too high. Which is fundamental supply and demand in action.

    An increase in supply may not be the only intervention required, I never said it is, but it is absolutely 100% needed and would help to reverse the damage that has been done.

    Of course if supply increases and prices fall in real terms, then that would lower that inequality you mentioned too.
    The number of new homes has increased faster than the population, by a wide margin. It's actually a glut.

    The problem is that there are significant mismatches with where those houses are being built and where there is housing pressure. At risk of pissing off lots of PBers, here is my official assessment of LAs (bespoke assessments can be provided on request):

    YIMBY Gold award:

    Selby
    Huntingdonshire
    Mid Suffolk
    Telford and Wrekin
    West Lindsey

    NIMBY Black Spot of Barty Doom

    Pendle
    Thurrock
    Swale
    Epping Forest
    Peterborough

    Urban Excellence award: Southwark
    Rural Excellence award: West Devon, Cotswolds, Uttlesford
    Leon award: Camden, Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea (fewer houses, population falling)
    Trooper award: Tower Hamlets, Bedford, Tewkesbury (massive effort, but simply can’t keep up)
    Breeze block award: Barking and Dagenham, Slough, Leicester (massive population growth, no attempt to deal with it)
    Barty award: Copeland, Richmondshire, Caerphilly, Allerdale (population falling but f*** it more houses anyway)
    Where on earth did that come from? Epping Forest is building new council homes as well as 11,000 new homes over the next decade under its Local Plan.

    Hence Nimbys have been voting LD and Independent, though the Tories just held the council in May
    Fair enough! This was 2011 to 2021. Making good.

    RemindMe! 10 years
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    @mikegalsworthy

    And the promise of Brexit dies…

    …not with a bang, but a whimper of gibberish.

    https://x.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1799011913806057907?s=61&t=R6lKH2EZT0v_boZqogHuwA

    For those of you not inclined to follow the link, it takes you to a clip of last night’s QT. Fiona Bruce asks the audience ‘Who here is seeing the benefits of Brexit?’

    One guy raises his hand.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,917
    I've received a poster from the party displaying the nice simple message: Vote Labour. At first I thought I wouldn't be able to put it up because it has a big Union Jack on it and from a distance (ie from the street) that could look a bit seamy. However I've managed to fold it such that the flag disappears and all you can see is the red. So up it's gone, smaller than it would have been but I don't think that matters.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    The Sun I think will back Labour.

    According to Harwood they're going to fence sit as there's a big split on who to support
    Any sources or links?

    I can't believe Rupert will fence sit. The article SKS did the other day reminded me of that one Blair did prior to 1997 on Europe.
    Tom Harwoods twitter
    Can't see anything. You'll have to link.
    My apologies, I didn't mean Tom Harwood (who's he?? Lol)
    https://x.com/danwootton/status/1798805785751011587?s=19
  • Big_IanBig_Ian Posts: 67

    The Normandy snub is probably going to become the defining moment for Sunak in this campaign.

    It will cut through because it's about more than just the normal political point-scoring and mud-slinging.

    It's also revealing about Sunak's character, priorities and understanding. https://t.co/25y8brAslk

    — David Herdson (@DavidHerdson) June 7, 2024
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,992

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    I just don't buy that explanation. He grew up here. He went to school here. He will have experienced the poppies every November. He's done two Remembrance Sundays as PM. He will have seen the criticism of other MPs for minor transgressions at similar events.

    He's clearly under a lot of pressure, and high levels of stress impair decision-making. But I think it's more that he systematically undervalues the front of house aspect of leadership, and that's the underlying instinct that led him astray, rather than that he didn't have a Grandpa with war stories. And, who knows what Grandpa Sunak did in the war in India?
    Done a little reading, and both Sunak's Grandparents were in East Africa during the war, working for the British colonial authorities.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    @BestForBritain

    Sunak is getting the wrong sort of international exposure. Front page on NBC. It really would be quite something if he managed to have such a disastrous campaign that he limits even his future prospects as a tech-bro CEO. ~AA

    https://x.com/BestForBritain/status/1799022507108028897
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,157
    Breaking:

    Number 10 has issued a formal denial of claims that Rishi Sunak was originally considering missing the D-Day commemorations *entirely*

    No 10 spokesman: 'The PM was always scheduled to attend D-Day commemorations, including the UK National Commemoration event in Normandy, and it is incorrect to suggest otherwise'

    https://x.com/steven_swinford/status/1799022387997893087?s=46

    That looks like a pretty forceful denial. They will be so screwed if someone leaks to the contrary.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    They're running some great headlines, though:

    "This D-Day cock-up is final proof that Rishi Sunak is an embarrassment to Britain"

    Alongside:

    "I may have to vote for Rishi Sunak after all"

    (Though admittedly the latter is by AEP, which is another kiss of death.)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,514

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    I just don't buy that explanation. He grew up here. He went to school here. He will have experienced the poppies every November. He's done two Remembrance Sundays as PM. He will have seen the criticism of other MPs for minor transgressions at similar events.

    He's clearly under a lot of pressure, and high levels of stress impair decision-making. But I think it's more that he systematically undervalues the front of house aspect of leadership, and that's the underlying instinct that led him astray, rather than that he didn't have a Grandpa with war stories. And, who knows what Grandpa Sunak did in the war in India?
    300 Indian soldiers fought at Dunkirk, as part of 2.5m Indians who volunteered to fight with us.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,155
    Chameleon said:

    I'm quite worried yesterdays mess may mean they cancel Saturday's planned activity of *checks notes* Sunak personally strapping Paddington Bear onto a Rwanda Air plane.

    Bless you . That was a classic .
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    Sky now has video of him running away yesterday

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1799023143593590951
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385
    Scott_xP said:

    @BestForBritain

    Sunak is getting the wrong sort of international exposure. Front page on NBC. It really would be quite something if he managed to have such a disastrous campaign that he limits even his future prospects as a tech-bro CEO. ~AA

    https://x.com/BestForBritain/status/1799022507108028897

    Nick Clegg says hello. As long as Sunak wins more than 8 seats.... ah hang on.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    What I would be offering Farage right now if I were Sunak.

    Alliance between Con and Ref.
    Reform stand down in all Tory seats where the sitting MP is going for reelection (except Clacton)
    Tories stand down in all other Tory seats
    Everywhere else is 50/50.
    Sunak promises to resign immediately post election.
    Leader of a merged party to be elected with the MPs of both parties voting for a final two and the final vote being an electoral college of Tory members (50%) and Reform members (50%).

    They have about 4 hours to organise it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Wow.
    That's currently in the running for daft take of the day.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Tory win now out to 66/1 for the very brave.

    Best you can get on a Labour win is 1/14.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,514
    Scott_xP said:

    Sky now has video of him running away yesterday

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1799023143593590951

    Was heavy rain forecast perchance?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,757
    kinabalu said:

    I've received a poster from the party displaying the nice simple message: Vote Labour. At first I thought I wouldn't be able to put it up because it has a big Union Jack on it and from a distance (ie from the street) that could look a bit seamy. However I've managed to fold it such that the flag disappears and all you can see is the red. So up it's gone, smaller than it would have been but I don't think that matters.

    If you have a sudden urge to come to Scotland to campaign for SLab, fear not, nary a sign of a UJ on their election literature.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    edited June 7
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That’s nonsense. It just means the next migrant PM should appoint Advisors on Innate Britishness. Because it is a thing. People with deep roots in a country understand it in a way recent arrivals do not. If your great great grandfather fought at the Somme and your grandfather at Normandy then you will understand Britain and its history a lot better - in your soul - than someone whose parents arrived after WW2

    Migrants face this challenge whereevrr they go. But they also bring distinct advantages. A new eye. A fresh perspective. Fewer hang ups

    Sunak’s problem seems to be a lack of good advisors. Someone with a sense of Britains military history should have been able to say “mate. You do D day. All of it. End of”
    No it isn't. You may not like it but if an ethnic minority PM loses by a landslide to a white male like Starmer the main parties will conclude the UK electorate are just not ready for a non white PM (even Obama of course lost the US white vote in 2008 and 2012, it was the massive black turnout for him, especially in 2012 and most of the Hispanic vote that got him elected and re elected but the UK Hindu population is far smaller than the US African American population).

    As you have said only those with direct family links to fighters in WW2 can truly emotionally feel it, that means on your argument white British almost certainly.

    In 10 or 20 years when WW2 is as far away as WW1 is now and all veterans are dead it may be less of an issue but for now it is
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,514
    DM_Andy said:

    What I would be offering Farage right now if I were Sunak.

    Alliance between Con and Ref.
    Reform stand down in all Tory seats where the sitting MP is going for reelection (except Clacton)
    Tories stand down in all other Tory seats
    Everywhere else is 50/50.
    Sunak promises to resign immediately post election.
    Leader of a merged party to be elected with the MPs of both parties voting for a final two and the final vote being an electoral college of Tory members (50%) and Reform members (50%).

    They have about 4 hours to organise it.

    That would be accepted and Farage would lead the new party without any doubt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,917
    edited June 7
    Scott_xP said:

    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Chameleon said:

    I'm quite worried yesterdays mess may mean they cancel Saturday's planned activity of *checks notes* Sunak personally strapping Paddington Bear on a Rwanda Air plane.

    They can pivot straight to drowning puppies instead
    Not unpopular enough. I think a hot mic of slagging off old queenie may have to take it's place.
    The King, who has cancer, stayed all day. Richi couldn't be arsed.

    Maybe he needs to call them "suckers and losers" ?

    Worked for Trump
    An item on the very long list of Trump statements that you'd have thought would finish him yet somehow did not.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,198

    @mikegalsworthy

    And the promise of Brexit dies…

    …not with a bang, but a whimper of gibberish.

    https://x.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1799011913806057907?s=61&t=R6lKH2EZT0v_boZqogHuwA

    For those of you not inclined to follow the link, it takes you to a clip of last night’s QT. Fiona Bruce asks the audience ‘Who here is seeing the benefits of Brexit?’

    One guy raises his hand.

    The only thing achieved as far as I can see is that we now do have more sovereignty and can pass laws without worrying about eu directives and so on.

    But that is too abstract an achievement for most people other than the Bill Cashs of the world.

    Migration was a major, if not the major factor, in the vote and that has exploded with non-eu from S Asia and Africa.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    DM_Andy said:

    What I would be offering Farage right now if I were Sunak.

    Alliance between Con and Ref.
    Reform stand down in all Tory seats where the sitting MP is going for reelection (except Clacton)
    Tories stand down in all other Tory seats
    Everywhere else is 50/50.
    Sunak promises to resign immediately post election.
    Leader of a merged party to be elected with the MPs of both parties voting for a final two and the final vote being an electoral college of Tory members (50%) and Reform members (50%).

    They have about 4 hours to organise it.

    Christ. Don’t give them ideas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Not really - it has nothing to do with his skin colour, he’s just shite.
    Do you really think Reform would be polling 15-20% if the Tory leader was a white male? I don't, sadly
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That’s nonsense. It just means the next migrant PM should appoint Advisors on Innate Britishness. Because it is a thing. People with deep roots in a country understand it in a way recent arrivals do not. If your great great grandfather fought at the Somme and your grandfather at Normandy then you will understand Britain and its history a lot better - in your soul - than someone whose parents arrived after WW2

    Migrants face this challenge whereevrr they go. But they also bring distinct advantages. A new eye. A fresh perspective. Fewer hang ups

    Sunak’s problem seems to be a lack of good advisors. Someone with a sense of Britains military history should have been able to say “mate. You do D day. All of it. End of”
    No it isn't. You may not like it but if an ethnic minority PM loses by a landslide to a white male like Starmer the main parties will conclude the UK electorate are just not ready for a non white PM (even Obama of course lost the US white vote in 2008 and 2012, it was the massive black turnout for him, especially in 2012 and most of the Hispanic vote that got him elected and re elected but the UK Hindu population is far smaller than the US African American population).

    As you have said only those with direct family links to fighters in WW2 can truly emotionally feel it, that means on your argument white British almost certainly.

    In 10 or 20 years when WW2 is as far away as WW1 is now and all veterans are dead it may be less of an issue but for now it is
    OK, you've nailed it.

    Daft take of the day is officially yours.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That’s nonsense. It just means the next migrant PM should appoint Advisors on Innate Britishness. Because it is a thing. People with deep roots in a country understand it in a way recent arrivals do not. If your great great grandfather fought at the Somme and your grandfather at Normandy then you will understand Britain and its history a lot better - in your soul - than someone whose parents arrived after WW2

    Migrants face this challenge whereevrr they go. But they also bring distinct advantages. A new eye. A fresh perspective. Fewer hang ups

    Sunak’s problem seems to be a lack of good advisors. Someone with a sense of Britains military history should have been able to say “mate. You do D day. All of it. End of”
    No it isn't. You may not like it but if an ethnic minority PM loses by a landslide to a white male like Starmer the main parties will conclude the UK electorate are just not ready for a non white PM (even Obama of course lost the US white vote in 2008 and 2012, it was the massive black turnout for him, especially in 2012 and most of the Hispanic vote that got him elected and re elected but the UK Hindu population is far smaller than the US African American population).

    As you have said only those with direct family links to fighters in WW2 can truly emotionally feel it, that means on your argument white British almost certainly.

    In 10 or 20 years when WW2 is as far away as WW1 is now and all veterans are dead it may be less of an issue but for now it is
    Not your finest post. By a long stretch.
  • novanova Posts: 683
    HYUFD said:

    nova said:

    DM_Andy said:

    So imagine Reform entering the Commons with 3 MPs (Farage, Tice and Anderson). Tories come back with less than 100 and the two parties merge. What's the mechanism for Farage to become the leader of the merged party? What's then stopping the centre-right wing of the party to walk out in an echo of 1981?

    I can't see how a party with 3 MPs would be in a position to control the party with nearer 100.

    In Canada, the example that Farage likes to mention, the new Reform party had 52 seats (which would equate to around 115 in the UK), so had a lot more power.

    If the result is 100-3, then clearly the Tory vote is still a lot more powerful in its concentration, and without PR, a lot of Tory MPs could be risking their seats to sign up with Reform. I think you're correct, that the centre-right would still hold quite a lot of power.

    Unless Reform make a huge breakthrough - and frankly, given the way things are going, it's not impossible for the Tory vote to crash, then I'd be surprised if it worked out quite so easily for Farage.

    Has anyone seen any polling on what the current Tory voters think of Reform? I know that we've seen a lot on Reform voters having a poor opinion of the Tories and Sunak (hence why a pact was probably never on the cards), but no the other way around.
    True, though if Reform got 28% and the Tories collapsed to 10% (with Labour on 43% and the LDs also on 10%) Labour get 469 seats, it is Reform who get 101 seats (close to Canadian Reform then), the LDs 38, SNP 13, Tories just 5 (close to Canadian Tories 2 then) and Greens 3
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=10&LAB=43&LIB=10&Reform=28&Green=5&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=17&SCOTLAB=36.8&SCOTLIB=8.4&SCOTReform=1.9&SCOTGreen=1.4&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=31.1&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
    Yes - that's why I'd like to see some polling on Tory voters views of Reform.

    There was some polling by Redfield this week, asking about voter priorities, which showed some significant clear blue water between the two parties. Tories cared about immigration, but for Reform voters it's by far the most important issue. More Tory voters said the economy was an issue than any other party, with Reform caring the least.

    I can see Sunak getting into a doom loop of being portrayed as a loser, and that collapse is then possible - Voting for Reform would be an anti-Labour vote that feels more like a "win". However, hopefully the Tories that are left have a big more sense that to go down Reform's rabbit hole.

    https://x.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1798750446309577088
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Does it...I don't think colour will be the issue. I think more likely that it will severely limit anybody who is ultra wealthy from getting the top job.
    Trump, JFK, Berlusconi all ultra wealthy, all won as they had had charisma and could connect with voters
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 735

    DM_Andy said:

    What I would be offering Farage right now if I were Sunak.

    Alliance between Con and Ref.
    Reform stand down in all Tory seats where the sitting MP is going for reelection (except Clacton)
    Tories stand down in all other Tory seats
    Everywhere else is 50/50.
    Sunak promises to resign immediately post election.
    Leader of a merged party to be elected with the MPs of both parties voting for a final two and the final vote being an electoral college of Tory members (50%) and Reform members (50%).

    They have about 4 hours to organise it.

    That would be accepted and Farage would lead the new party without any doubt.
    Not much there foir Sunak. If you think he puts party above self then you have not been watching.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,735
    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Cicero said:

    Help to Buy is to getting a rebrand as Freedom to Buy...

    https://news.sky.com/story/labour-to-offer-freedom-to-buy-for-young-people-with-mortgage-guarantee-scheme-13148889

    Permanent very low deposits guaranteed by government has other negatives above the risk of bad loans.

    What percentage of council houses sold are still in the hands of owner occupiers, as opposed to private rental companies?
    40% of right to buy homes are now rented out privately.

    PB likes to ignore the vast shifts in housing tenure in the last 14 years, but ultimately it's the reason why the country has become more unequal and why the number of natural Conservative voters has fallen. There is no evidence that a mass private housebuilding programme would reverse the trend and increase ownership - all the new homes will simply be hoovered up by those who have accumulated large savings.
    That shows a gross ignorance of economics and follows your typical lame excuse-making for NIMBYism.

    The reason for the vast shifts in housing tenure is the lack of building supply. If supply increases that will be reversed.

    And of course in a healthy free housing economy typically 10% of homes are unoccupied [for very good reasons] which means homes in poor condition or are too expensive don't get let out and the owner is left paying their bills/mortgage and taxes without a tenant paying them any rent.

    So why would those with savings snap up all homes if supply is increased and they can't let them out? It means price falls and people who want to buy to own have a choice, as well as tenants having a choice, on where to live.
    There he blows!

    New homes: 2.0 million
    Increase in households renting: 1.1 million
    Increase in households owning outright: 0.9 million
    Decrease in households with a mortgage: -0.4 million

    It would have certainly been worse without any new homes. But the idea that an increase in supply is the only intervention required is nonsense - wealth inequality is now far too great in the UK for that to suffice.
    That's been caused by the terrible shortage of new homes, meaning prices are far too high. Which is fundamental supply and demand in action.

    An increase in supply may not be the only intervention required, I never said it is, but it is absolutely 100% needed and would help to reverse the damage that has been done.

    Of course if supply increases and prices fall in real terms, then that would lower that inequality you mentioned too.
    The number of new homes has increased faster than the population, by a wide margin. It's actually a glut.

    The problem is that there are significant mismatches with where those houses are being built and where there is housing pressure. At risk of pissing off lots of PBers, here is my official assessment of LAs (bespoke assessments can be provided on request):

    YIMBY Gold award:

    Selby
    Huntingdonshire
    Mid Suffolk
    Telford and Wrekin
    West Lindsey

    NIMBY Black Spot of Barty Doom

    Pendle
    Thurrock
    Swale
    Epping Forest
    Peterborough

    Urban Excellence award: Southwark
    Rural Excellence award: West Devon, Cotswolds, Uttlesford
    Leon award: Camden, Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea (fewer houses, population falling)
    Trooper award: Tower Hamlets, Bedford, Tewkesbury (massive effort, but simply can’t keep up)
    Breeze block award: Barking and Dagenham, Slough, Leicester (massive population growth, no attempt to deal with it)
    Barty award: Copeland, Richmondshire, Caerphilly, Allerdale (population falling but f*** it more houses anyway)
    This glut is all in your head.

    The number of new homes has nowhere near kept up with demand.

    Again you show a shocking ignorance of the effects of demographics on housing requirements, talking again only of "population". 🤦‍♂️
    8.2% increase in homes
    6.1% increase in households
    6.3% increase in population
    Why are you lying?

    Your households figure is a lie. You know this, so why repeat it?

    People who are compelled to share a home as there's not enough houses are classed as one household. You know that, but you're repeating your lies anyway. 🤦‍♂️

    The idea that t here's been a lesser increase in household demand than population increase, when our demographic changes mean there's even further household pressures, is so obviously false its remarkable your following through on this outright blatant lie.
    The number of people per household has fallen, and overcrowding has fallen too.

    Edit: sorry, the population per household has risen* This is explained by immigrants being much more efficient users of households than say older people
    The number of people per household should have fallen as we have 4 million extra over 50s than we did. Who don't live with children.🤦‍♂️

    Immigration doesn't counter that.

    Your own data reveals the chronic housing shortage. Again!
    In most LAs, housing pressure is actually falling. It's only in about 100 where you see this acute problem, and they are mostly in our cities.
    Don't believe you - please provide evidence because even this week I saw issues in 3 local authorities round here..
    Absolutely.

    I'd love to know these mythical local authorities without housing shortages.
    I provided you with some examples above :)
    No, you did not.

    Name any LAs without housing pressure.
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    Goodness knows. It's all piling up, and none of it is good for the Conservatives. All their defences are crumbling and all their attacks are petering out. I find it difficult to internalise the fact that the £2000 line died in less than 48hrs: an attack with some truth in it, that had previously proven lethal, was entirely ineffective. It's like that bit in Independence Day where they fire the missiles and the shields stop all of them. I have not got a clue what the Conservatives can or should do now.
    But that line is going to get another outing next week, when they finally broadcast the interview that was so important to film yesterday
    Filming the interview six days before the scheduled broadcast seems like an odd choice for the Tories to make, even without the tactlessness of skipping out of the commemoration of the Normandy landings.

    Presumably they filmed so far ahead to avoid the potential risk of Sunak being grilled on any bad news that crops up over the weekend or early next week? Another misjudgement, if so.

    As you say, it’ll just return attention to this week’s blunders like Sunak’s £2000 lie and Sunak’s early retreat from France when the news cycle would otherwise have moved on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269
    ToryJim said:

    Breaking:

    Number 10 has issued a formal denial of claims that Rishi Sunak was originally considering missing the D-Day commemorations *entirely*

    No 10 spokesman: 'The PM was always scheduled to attend D-Day commemorations, including the UK National Commemoration event in Normandy, and it is incorrect to suggest otherwise'

    https://x.com/steven_swinford/status/1799022387997893087?s=46

    That looks like a pretty forceful denial. They will be so screwed if someone leaks to the contrary.

    "I wasn't planing to miss the entire thing" is perhaps not the best way to put an end to the story.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    edited June 7
    Latest candidate totals at approx 11am
    Lab 631 (-)
    Green (combined) - 613 (+6)
    Conservative - 593 (+35)
    Lib Dem - 566 (+5)
    Reform UK - 470 (+5)
    Workers Party - 242 (+8)
    Ind - 148 (+6)
    SDP - 125 (-)
    SNP - 57 (-)
    Plaid Cymru - 32 (-)
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,157

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That is a very silly post. And totally misguided.

    Many of the front runners to be the next Tory leader happen to be non-white. They'll be evaluated on their policies and abilities, in the same way as Sunak.

    The lesson from Sunak is don't choose someone who is shite.
    In fairness after the Trussterfuck he was the only viable option to impose without a contest. Whoever is the next leader should revise the party constitution particularly the leadership election rules.
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 735
    Hang on - Mr Sunak did what!

    You know how Heathener was saying this was the worst Con GE campaign ever a couple of weeks back. Well it turns out No 10 was just getting warmed up...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,407

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    I just don't buy that explanation. He grew up here. He went to school here. He will have experienced the poppies every November. He's done two Remembrance Sundays as PM. He will have seen the criticism of other MPs for minor transgressions at similar events.

    He's clearly under a lot of pressure, and high levels of stress impair decision-making. But I think it's more that he systematically undervalues the front of house aspect of leadership, and that's the underlying instinct that led him astray, rather than that he didn't have a Grandpa with war stories. And, who knows what Grandpa Sunak did in the war in India?
    Also, when he was at school, he would have walked through three dirty Great War memorials several times a day - The Boer War Gate, The War Cloister and the Crimea Gate plus a memorial for those who died in war after WW2.

    He would have seen hundreds of names of young men like him who had everything ahead of them and then died so there is no way he doesn’t have any concept of it deep in his development.

    He’s just a certain type of geeky maths type who isn’t overly interested in things that aren’t measurable and can be analysed to create a result. Great sort to have in the Treasury, not the best to be Ring Master at the circus.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546
    edited June 7
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That’s nonsense. It just means the next migrant PM should appoint Advisors on Innate Britishness. Because it is a thing. People with deep roots in a country understand it in a way recent arrivals do not. If your great great grandfather fought at the Somme and your grandfather at Normandy then you will understand Britain and its history a lot better - in your soul - than someone whose parents arrived after WW2

    Migrants face this challenge whereevrr they go. But they also bring distinct advantages. A new eye. A fresh perspective. Fewer hang ups

    Sunak’s problem seems to be a lack of good advisors. Someone with a sense of Britains military history should have been able to say “mate. You do D day. All of it. End of”
    ...the next migrant PM...? I see your true colours.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,155
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    Not really - it has nothing to do with his skin colour, he’s just shite.
    Do you really think Reform would be polling 15-20% if the Tory leader was a white male? I don't, sadly
    I was reading some of the comments on the DT and you have a point . But Sunak is really a poor campaigner and has scored a huge own goal . I still can’t believe he decided with advisors that it was okay to leave early and rush back to do a tv interview.

    This trashes so many aspects of the Tory campaign .
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    No crossover today with YG
    Lab 41 (+1)
    Con 19. (=)
    Ref 16 (-1)
    LD 11 (+1)
  • eekeek Posts: 27,962
    ToryJim said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That is a very silly post. And totally misguided.

    Many of the front runners to be the next Tory leader happen to be non-white. They'll be evaluated on their policies and abilities, in the same way as Sunak.

    The lesson from Sunak is don't choose someone who is shite.
    In fairness after the Trussterfuck he was the only viable option to impose without a contest. Whoever is the next leader should revise the party constitution particularly the leadership election rules.
    To what purpose - if it hadn't been for the membership vote the only difference would have been Rishi winning the initial MP vote and becoming PM a few months earlier...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,668
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    That's a killer photo right there...world leader, world leader, world leader, not world leader.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/#1717748200446

    It’s quite shameful

    I hesitate to mention this, but could Sunak’s background be an issue. He’s of Indian descent and his family are fairly recent migrants

    For a British politician with that innate sense if British history - parents who remember the war or grandparents who were in wars - etc etc - then D Day is iconic. It’s in your blood. No way you make this howling error

    For someone like Sunak D Day may appear like some quaint ceremony of a long ago war. He might appreciate it intellectually but doesn’t get it emotionally. Because of his background

    I hasten to add I have no problem with a migrant prime minister. Just as long as they are competent! I’d have no problem with a bloody robot premier - they’d probably be better

    Sunak doesn’t quite grasp Britain or Britishness. His wife is also Indian and billionaire. He is detached in multiple ways
    Yes but if the UK's first non white PM loses his first election by a landslide that also kills off the prospect of any further ethnic minority leaders of a major UK party for a generation unfortunately
    That’s nonsense. It just means the next migrant PM should appoint Advisors on Innate Britishness. Because it is a thing. People with deep roots in a country understand it in a way recent arrivals do not. If your great great grandfather fought at the Somme and your grandfather at Normandy then you will understand Britain and its history a lot better - in your soul - than someone whose parents arrived after WW2

    Migrants face this challenge whereevrr they go. But they also bring distinct advantages. A new eye. A fresh perspective. Fewer hang ups

    Sunak’s problem seems to be a lack of good advisors. Someone with a sense of Britains military history should have been able to say “mate. You do D day. All of it. End of”
    No it isn't. You may not like it but if an ethnic minority PM loses by a landslide to a white male like Starmer the main parties will conclude the UK electorate are just not ready for a non white PM (even Obama of course lost the US white vote in 2008 and 2012, it was the massive black turnout for him, especially in 2012 and most of the Hispanic vote that got him elected and re elected but the UK Hindu population is far smaller than the US African American population).

    As you have said only those with direct family links to fighters in WW2 can truly emotionally feel it, that means on your argument white British almost certainly.

    In 10 or 20 years when WW2 is as far away as WW1 is now and all veterans are dead it may be less of an issue but for now it is
    Plenty of non-white Britons have ancestors who fought in WW2. There was a substantial British Indian army who fought in Asia but also in Europe. Also plenty of West Indians (who were all volunteers, none were conscripted). Plus of course mixed race Britons whose White British ancestors fought. If Sunak is disconnected from the "normal" British experience perhaps that's his parents' fault for sending him to an elitist school whose entire raison d'etre is to prevent mixing with "normal" British people?
    I suspect Sunak's real problem is a lack of empathy and curiosity. He seems to lack able advisors. It should also be evident that he is being lined up as the fall guy for the multiple governing failures of the British right.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127

    Latest candidate totals at approx 11am
    Lab 631 (-)
    Green (combined) - 613 (+6)
    Conservative - 593 (+35)
    Lib Dem - 566 (+5)
    Reform UK - 470 (+5)
    Workers Party - 242 (+8)
    Ind - 148 (+6)
    SDP - 125 (-)
    SNP - 57 (-)
    Plaid Cymru - 32 (-)

    Where are the SDP getting money for around 120 lost deposits? I know you can get lost deposit insurance, but I would have thought they would be uninsurable. Their 2022 accounts show £52k income.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,407
    Starmer, and Labour should probably think about how far to push attacks, demands for apologies etc. They are on for a landslide anyway and the more things they over-react about the more they are setting themselves up as hostages to fortune when they inevitably fuck up in power.

    I imagine Starmer thinks he’s being ruthless but he doesn’t need to be, his enemies are killing themselves, but he’s not being totally smart.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,500
    Nigelb said:

    ToryJim said:

    Breaking:

    Number 10 has issued a formal denial of claims that Rishi Sunak was originally considering missing the D-Day commemorations *entirely*

    No 10 spokesman: 'The PM was always scheduled to attend D-Day commemorations, including the UK National Commemoration event in Normandy, and it is incorrect to suggest otherwise'

    https://x.com/steven_swinford/status/1799022387997893087?s=46

    That looks like a pretty forceful denial. They will be so screwed if someone leaks to the contrary.

    "I wasn't planing to miss the entire thing" is perhaps not the best way to put an end to the story.
    Either it is badly worded or, worse, it is legalistic sophistry that will have unravelled by the end of the day. However, we should bear in mind that malign, often foreign, actors are already trolling during this election campaign.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546

    Latest candidate totals at approx 11am
    Lab 631 (-)
    Green (combined) - 613 (+6)
    Conservative - 593 (+35)
    Lib Dem - 566 (+5)
    Reform UK - 470 (+5)
    Workers Party - 242 (+8)
    Ind - 148 (+6)
    SDP - 125 (-)
    SNP - 57 (-)
    Plaid Cymru - 32 (-)

    So Reform still have 180 to find? I'm happy to stand for Reform in North Dorset:

    "Vote for me to let the LDs in. If by any chance I am elected I promise to defect to Labour or the LDs - whoever makes me the best offer tbh."
  • eekeek Posts: 27,962
    Muesli said:

    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    geoffw said:

    So what bad news has been buried today?

    Goodness knows. It's all piling up, and none of it is good for the Conservatives. All their defences are crumbling and all their attacks are petering out. I find it difficult to internalise the fact that the £2000 line died in less than 48hrs: an attack with some truth in it, that had previously proven lethal, was entirely ineffective. It's like that bit in Independence Day where they fire the missiles and the shields stop all of them. I have not got a clue what the Conservatives can or should do now.
    But that line is going to get another outing next week, when they finally broadcast the interview that was so important to film yesterday
    Filming the interview six days before the scheduled broadcast seems like an odd choice for the Tories to make, even without the tactlessness of skipping out of the commemoration of the Normandy landings.

    Presumably they filmed so far ahead to avoid the potential risk of Sunak being grilled on any bad news that crops up over the weekend or early next week? Another misjudgement, if so.

    As you say, it’ll just return attention to this week’s blunders like Sunak’s £2000 lie and Sunak’s early retreat from France when the news cycle would otherwise have moved on.
    Not doing the interview live is a weird choice, you need to react to the news from that day.

    Doing it a week in advance is utterly insane....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,500
    edited June 7
    A doctored video of Labour's Wes Streeting has been pushed to X users - making it seem as though he called fellow politician Diane Abbott a "silly woman". A network of X accounts has been creating and sharing such clips of politicians ahead of the general election - and then posting misleading comments alongside to bolster the impression they are real.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg33x9jm02ko

    Nigel Farage and Luke Akehurst are also named.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,269

    @mikegalsworthy

    And the promise of Brexit dies…

    …not with a bang, but a whimper of gibberish.

    https://x.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1799011913806057907?s=61&t=R6lKH2EZT0v_boZqogHuwA

    For those of you not inclined to follow the link, it takes you to a clip of last night’s QT. Fiona Bruce asks the audience ‘Who here is seeing the benefits of Brexit?’

    One guy raises his hand.

    Did he say what it was ?
This discussion has been closed.