So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future (though apparently not war crimes).
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
People have forgotten what a Labour government means. Because it's been over 14 years.
Many are not going to like it.
When they reme
In reality, it was a pretty popular government for quite a long period until, as they all do, it made a series of mistakes and ran out of steam.
I know it's standard practice to invent a little story about a predecessor administration being a total fiasco throughout - and it's an effective tactic too as, almost by definition, your opponent is at a low point in public esteem when they lose office. But it isn't terribly credible.
Yeah, I didn’t like TB but New Labour was great for this country.
Pretty-much the last time this country was relaxed and happy.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
Morning all. Off to do some non-compulsory volunteering...
It doesn't count if you enjoy it.
The latest research suggests even the pyramids didn't require compulsory volunteering.
Yay - Kant early on a Bank Holiday morning. Doing a good turn is of no moral worth if you enjoy doing it.
So, when I find an errant shopping trolley on my way to the local supermarket, I should not return it? This is about the limit of my "do-goodery" these days.
Kant's test for shopping trolley return (not to be confused with the runaway trolley problem, which is different):
"Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”
He doesn't really mind if you enjoy doing it, but it doesn't give what Kant would call 'bragging rights'.
@Steven_Swinford A minister has said that the Conservative's new national service scheme was 'sprung on' MPs and candidates without consultation
Steve Baker, an NI minister, said that the policy 'was developed by a political adviser or advisers and sprung on candidates, some of whom are relevant ministers'
It’s almost as though this policy hasn’t been properly thought through and has been written on back of a fag packet (now that cigs aren’t going to be banned)
IANAE but inventing a new policy on the spur of the moment might be a risky game to play.
But it hasn’t been. It has been in development a while. William Hague has been involved in crafting it.
Sounds like the crap Vague would come up with for sure.
I thought you were all for compelling today's feckless youth to do time polishing boots and marching around parade grounds?
I would make the b*ggers work. Get them out sweeping the streets, picking up litter , getting chewing gum off pavements, painting graffiti and helping old ladies across the street. 8 am - 5pm with 30 minutes for lunch. Pay retired soldiers to ensure disciplne and no slacking. No cushy billets.
There was a little old lady, who was walkin' down the road She was struggling with bags from Tesco There were people from the city havin' lunch in the park I believe that is called al fresco When a kid came along to offer a hand But before she had time to accept it Hits her over the head, doesn't care if she's dead 'Cause he's got all her jewellery and wallet
I fear I may have spotted (yet another) flaw in this plan.
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future (though apparently not war crimes).
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
People have forgotten what a Labour government means. Because it's been over 14 years.
Many are not going to like it.
When they reme
In reality, it was a pretty popular government for quite a long period until, as they all do, it made a series of mistakes and ran out of steam.
I know it's standard practice to invent a little story about a predecessor administration being a total fiasco throughout - and it's an effective tactic too as, almost by definition, your opponent is at a low point in public esteem when they lose office. But it isn't terribly credible.
Actually, it was only really popular for the first few years - note how turnout dropped in 2001, it started losing locals and euros quite clearly, and then a lot of voters starting deserting it post Iraq in 2005.
To the extent that Blair was relatively popular his premiership from 1997-2007 coincided with some of the most benign economic conditions we'd ever experienced, though for most of the last half of it everyone was constantly nervous about the threat of Islamic terrorism.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future (though apparently not war crimes).
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
Blair and New Labour definitely had some authoritarian tendencies. Personally I wouldn't put ID cards in there with the rest of that list...
I'm more optimistic about Starmer. He's been a human rights lawyer and will have seen a lot of miscarriages of justice. But my worry is that he is so desperate to win, that he may feel he has to act tough and compromise his principles.
Yep exactly.
I can’t really see someone who had a successful career as a human rights lawyer then suddenly banning them.
What yesterday’s Sunday Times double piece said, which I now discover was similar to George Eaton’s New Statesman piece, is that Starmer does not follow ideology. He’s all about pragmatism.
Well thank BLOODY goodness for that, I say!
I am sick and bloody tired of stupid ideological politicians screwing up our lives. Give me some pragmatism and competence now, please.
I am quite confident that Starmer is an ends justify the means kind of person. I think all top British politicians are, because that's a quality British politics currently selects for.
So if he is convinced it is necessary to perpetuate his rule there is very little he won't do.
This is no very great criticism of Starmer. We shouldn't underestimate how difficult it is to do the contrary, when our political system does so much to dissuade people from putting principle above expediency.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I would be bitterly opposed to that policy.
But I do feel you ought to be reminding everyone of the context: 9/11 and 7/7
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
I do wonder with some of the Tory lines whether they aren't flattering Sunak's ego a bit. I think he has a bit of a self-image of a dynamic, high-energy, action man. But it isn't very realistic.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I don't think anyone should be detained without charge, innocent until proven guilty. I can get behind 14 days I suppose but even that seems a long time. Why not 7 days, say?
Blair was wrong, as I said initially. The fact the Tories opposed that is a good mark in their column, not everything they do is bad.
I've clearly got on your nerves, it's funny to be called "embarrassing" by one of the most partisan posters here.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
Seeing as Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively HYUFD style party political broadcasts
HYUFD is without exception polite and considerate of other posters - he reminds me of some of my older relatives. He's always worth listening to and does not pretend to be representative of the population in general. I think the comparison is unfair.
At least 20% of the population still vote Conservative, some of them enthusiastically, despite everything. We need to hear their truth too.
There is definitely something about people just not wanting to hear anything critical or negative about Starmer or Labour.
On my local town Facebook group a thread developed yesterday because of the closure of the school and the admin shut it down because it was "becoming a party political broadcast" (it wasn't, someone had just posted the Telegraph article) and there were several replies to it saying it had absolutely nothing to do with Labour - which got lots of likes - whilst others disagreeing vociferously were deleted.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I would be bitterly opposed to that policy.
But I do feel you ought to be reminding everyone of the context: 9/11 and 7/7
I’m not justifying it, just contextualising it.
Magnificent, using terrorism to justify dangerously illiberal policies, how awesome are Labour.
I remember Charles Clarke, then Home Secretary, looking like a complete tool on Question Time when asked if he could cite any examples where the 90 day detention limit would have made a difference.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I would be bitterly opposed to that policy.
But I do feel you ought to be reminding everyone of the context: 9/11 and 7/7
I’m not justifying it, just contextualising it.
Magnificent, using terrorism to justify dangerously illiberal policies, how awesome are Labour.
I remember Charles Clarke, then Home Secretary, looking like a complete tool on Question Time when asked if he could cite any examples where the 90 day detention limit would have made a difference.
I really think Labour lost the plot after 9/11. The Blair and Brown documentary makes this quite clear.
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future (though apparently not war crimes).
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
Blair and New Labour definitely had some authoritarian tendencies. Personally I wouldn't put ID cards in there with the rest of that list...
I'm more optimistic about Starmer. He's been a human rights lawyer and will have seen a lot of miscarriages of justice. But my worry is that he is so desperate to win, that he may feel he has to act tough and compromise his principles.
Yep exactly.
I can’t really see someone who had a successful career as a human rights lawyer then suddenly banning them.
What yesterday’s Sunday Times double piece said, which I now discover was similar to George Eaton’s New Statesman piece, is that Starmer does not follow ideology. He’s all about pragmatism.
Well thank BLOODY goodness for that, I say!
I am sick and bloody tired of stupid ideological politicians screwing up our lives. Give me some pragmatism and competence now, please.
Competence is not an ideology but crucially, pragmatism certainly is an ideology, and until you know: Which pragmatism; whose choices; what counts as success? you are in the dark.
Putin, Xi and Trump are all pragmatists. The Blair line "What counts is what works" reveals nothing and conceals everything.
Seeing as Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively HYUFD style party political broadcasts
HYUFD is without exception polite and considerate of other posters - he reminds me of some of my older relatives. He's always worth listening to and does not pretend to be representative of the population in general. I think the comparison is unfair.
At least 20% of the population still vote Conservative, some of them enthusiastically, despite everything. We need to hear their truth too.
I didn’t say it was a bad thing, I just said that it was coloured by self interest.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I don't think he plays each week any more, but the sleepy Keir nickname won't stick.
He is just pacing himself and preparing well, not throwing ideas from the random policy generator without prepping his own team.
He has a remorseless, meticulous well briefed plan and will stick to it as far as he can.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future.
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
He actually *did* introduce indefinite prison sentences, which people are still serving. As outrageous to me as blood and Post office scandals. And of course if we get an inquiry it will be decades late and no help for those who have committed suicide in prison
Oh I see.
Well just confirms many of my views on Tony Blair, which I’ve made no secret about on here. I disliked him then and I dislike him now.
I marched against the war in Iraq, standing right behind someone called Jeremy Corbyn.
Bloody proud I did too.
I was on that demo. I was hoping to fall in behind a banner saying 'Ken Clark is right, as usual' but inadvertently found myself marching behind the Moslem Council of Britain. It certainly catered for a variety of opinions.
Good morning everyone. That’s a greeting, not a wish that Conservative supporters have to stop feeling pessimistic.
Mrs Cole has just asked me a question to which I don’t know the answer…… one of many over the years, of course, but this time people here may be able to help. Does this National Service thing apply to both sexes, or just males. If so, do girls get the military option? (We know there are women in the Armed Services.)
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I've clearly got on your nerves, it's funny to be called "embarrassing" by one of the most partisan posters here.
I don’t think @TSE can be accused of being one of the most partisan posters. Considering he’s openly a Conservative he does a very good job of presenting threads from a wide range of perspectives.
The only thing I don’t like is his sometimes descending into personal abuse, such as calling you ‘a bloody embarrassment’. It’s unbecoming and unnecessary for the site leader. Keep the gravitas TSE and you’re doing well. Thank you for oiling this machine through the febrile election campaign.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
He is.
But his public speaking style is rather dreary.
His public speaking style is awful - but is it any worse than Rishi's Inbetweeners act, really?
I think basically that's the point at this election, SKS would be destroyed by a Tory who didn't have 14 years to defend and had a vague bit of charisma. But he's up against Rishi Sunak who is worse in basically every way.
I remember when some people said Rishi was quite good at public speaking, I am still not totally clear what they were smoking.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
He’s got great hair and is quite handsome . He also looks like he could chop a few logs where as Sunak looks like he could barely lift a tin of beans .
Not only he is tremendously sexy, but he can cure Scrofula by his touch as well.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
Lots of us have known partisan positions on here, and it's possible to take that aspect of them with a pinch of salt.
What I would say for HYUFD is he does know the Tory membership well (or at least in his area) and offers insights into by-election campaigns etc. There's a lot of partisan stuff as well, but you take the rough with the smooth.
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future.
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
He actually *did* introduce indefinite prison sentences, which people are still serving. As outrageous to me as blood and Post office scandals. And of course if we get an inquiry it will be decades late and no help for those who have committed suicide in prison
Oh I see.
Well just confirms many of my views on Tony Blair, which I’ve made no secret about on here. I disliked him then and I dislike him now.
I marched against the war in Iraq, standing right behind someone called Jeremy Corbyn.
Bloody proud I did too.
Cool story. Are you the one on the left or the right?
The Stop Israeli WAR CRIMES (random capitalisation included for verisimilitude) thing has gone well.
Seeing as Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively HYUFD style party political broadcasts
HYUFD is without exception polite and considerate of other posters - he reminds me of some of my older relatives. He's always worth listening to and does not pretend to be representative of the population in general. I think the comparison is unfair.
At least 20% of the population still vote Conservative, some of them enthusiastically, despite everything. We need to hear their truth too.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I've clearly got on your nerves, it's funny to be called "embarrassing" by one of the most partisan posters here.
I don’t think @TSE can be accused of being one of the most partisan posters. Considering he’s openly a Conservative he does a very good job of presenting threads from a wide range of perspectives.
The only thing I don’t like is his sometimes descending into personal abuse, such as calling you ‘a bloody embarrassment’. It’s unbecoming and unnecessary for the site leader. Keep the gravitas TSE and you’re doing well. Thank you for oiling this machine through the febrile election campaign.
He's a massive Cameron/Osborne fanboy, which is fine. I don't have a problem with that, they're much better than everything that has come since.
Morning all. Off to do some non-compulsory volunteering...
It doesn't count if you enjoy it.
The latest research suggests even the pyramids didn't require compulsory volunteering.
Yay - Kant early on a Bank Holiday morning. Doing a good turn is of no moral worth if you enjoy doing it.
So, when I find an errant shopping trolley on my way to the local supermarket, I should not return it? This is about the limit of my "do-goodery" these days.
No, you should still do it. But only if you dislike doing it is the activity of moral worth.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
He’s got great hair and is quite handsome . He also looks like he could chop a few logs where as Sunak looks like he could barely lift a tin of beans .
Not only he is tremendously sexy, but he can cure Scrofula by his touch as well.
I wasn't trying to make a partisan point, I genuinely do think SKS is a good looking man. And his wife too, she's hot!
But then I also thought David was a good looking man.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
Labour is now where our focus should be - look at the polls.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
He’s got great hair and is quite handsome . He also looks like he could chop a few logs where as Sunak looks like he could barely lift a tin of beans .
Not only he is tremendously sexy, but he can cure Scrofula by his touch as well.
I wasn't trying to make a partisan point, I genuinely do think SKS is a good looking man. And his wife too, she's hot!
But then I also thought David was a good looking man.
Well, thank you, I think. What's with the "was" though?
@Steven_Swinford There is a lot of bad blood among Tory MPs - including from many members of the Cabinet - over Rishi Sunak's unilateral decision to call an early election
Sustaining party discipline will be challenging, especially in marginal seats
Steve Baker's criticism of Rishi Sunak's flagship national service scheme could be a sign of things to come
Steve Baker, a Northern Ireland minister, thinks he could be sacked as a candidate for speaking out against Rishi Sunak's flagship National Service policy
He's not backing down. 'He knows he could be sacked as a candidate and he thinks it would be worth it'
The bad blood from Tory MPs is on several fronts:
* Some say it has made their chances of holding onto their constituencies much lower - they simply haven't had enough time to prepare
* There are complaints that they haven't had enough time to raise the funding they need
* There is anger that Sunak went straight out to campaign without meeting MPs
* Cabinet ministers were completely cut of the picture - Sunak had already been to see the King when he told them about plan for July 4 election
* Some of them are on a fundamental level fearful about their own futures - they are really worried about their own livelihoods and those of their staff
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
Well of course. There are many activists and party members on this site, including me. I think most parties and regions are represented, both by party loyalists and dissenters from their own parties
That is one of the strengths of this site. It is a usually civil place for activists to debate and argue, as well as occasionally bet or swap travel and dining tips.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I would be bitterly opposed to that policy.
But I do feel you ought to be reminding everyone of the context: 9/11 and 7/7
I’m not justifying it, just contextualising it.
Magnificent, using terrorism to justify dangerously illiberal policies, how awesome are Labour.
I remember Charles Clarke, then Home Secretary, looking like a complete tool on Question Time when asked if he could cite any examples where the 90 day detention limit would have made a difference.
No I’m not justifying it. I said I oppose it.
I was contextualising it, which is important.
And I don’t think you can truthfully tar “Labour" with a brush that was applied 20 years ago. This is the problem with election campaigns, normally nuanced people who have a particular Party allegiance readily become more imbalanced.
As I’m sure you know, many people in the Labour Party came to loathe Tony Blair.
The tea at 4pm proposal is fairly sound, but it needs a R4 Today gotcha interview about whether this is enforced by custodial sentences are merely a fine. There is also the question of how to afford two sorts of cake (Victoria sponge and coffee and walnut for me please) what with the cost of living and all that.
My 2 favourite cakes. You've got my vote.
I thought Dundee cake would be your thing?
Dundee cake is fine but Victoria sponge well made with a slightly tart jam to offset the sweetness of the cream and coffee and walnut are simply divine. @algarkirk is a man of excellent taste and judgment.
True of course, but what worries me is the the Tory plan for compulsory tea at 4 pm will be ruined by a Labour government. They are certain to amend this vital legislation to extend this afternoon tea session to the wrong sort, so that my butler, footman, housemaid and cook will refuse to serve it as they too are enjoying the spoils of socialism at 4 pm.
Good morning everyone. That’s a greeting, not a wish that Conservative supporters have to stop feeling pessimistic.
Mrs Cole has just asked me a question to which I don’t know the answer…… one of many over the years, of course, but this time people here may be able to help. Does this National Service thing apply to both sexes, or just males. If so, do girls get the military option? (We know there are women in the Armed Services.)
It really can't be boys only
There was a stunning interview on r4 pick of the week last night. Female us f16 fighter pilot, just qualified on 9/11 but still in training squadron so no live weapons, sent up with instructions to collide with flight 93 to prevent it reaching Washington [spoiler: it had actually crashed by the time she took off,,but she didn't know that].
If Labour had any balls they'd scrap the triple lock.
He's busy on Strictly.
I just knew this would be the response.
But this is the kind of thing that I can understand politically why they don't do it - but immediately after the election they should go back on it and scrap it.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
Who is the Labour leader? His name is Starmer ... Keir Starmer.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
Well of course. There are many activists and party members on this site, including me. I think most parties and regions are represented, both by party loyalists and dissenters from their own parties
That is one of the strengths of this site. It is a usually civil place for activists to debate and argue, as well as occasionally bet or swap travel and dining tips.
Quite right. And, also, for the vast majority of us that doesn't affect our betting insights, where we are able to divorce the two all listen to each other across party lines.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
Labour is now where our focus should be - look at the polls.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
I actually agree with you there, from a political strategy perspective. That's why, even if a net neutral or slight positive, the National Service thing was silly.
The Ming vase strategy requires Labour to get through 6 weeks of as little media coverage as possible. That will be easy if we get more National Service type policies from Sunak.
Rachel Johnson is the most pointless journalist there is. She just tells us what other Johnson would say with less bluster. It's as empty and vacuous as anything he says.
She often disagrees with Big Bro Boris in order to get herself a few seconds of publicity.
The two statements aren’t inconsistent. If we get everyone working in high end, super high paid STEM jobs, then there will be a massive shortage of people prepared to pick strawberries for 50p a basket.
Which is why we need to automate the strawberry picking.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future.
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
He actually *did* introduce indefinite prison sentences, which people are still serving. As outrageous to me as blood and Post office scandals. And of course if we get an inquiry it will be decades late and no help for those who have committed suicide in prison
Oh I see.
Well just confirms many of my views on Tony Blair, which I’ve made no secret about on here. I disliked him then and I dislike him now.
I marched against the war in Iraq, standing right behind someone called Jeremy Corbyn.
Bloody proud I did too.
Jeremy Corbyn? I’ve not heard of him. Hopefully no relation to well-known crackpot Piers Corbyn!
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
Labour is now where our focus should be - look at the polls.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
I actually agree with you there, from a political strategy perspective. That's why, even if a net neutral or slight positive, the National Service thing was silly.
The Ming vase strategy requires Labour to get through 6 weeks of as little media coverage as possible. That will be easy if we get more National Service type policies from Sunak.
This was something Portillo remarked on, on GBeebies. Even if you support the policy, it takes another week away from looking at Labour.
And he's right, all we've talked about is this plan for the last two days.
So we're at the stage of this National Service shambles where Tories are seriously suggesting parents are prosecuted over their adult children's refusal to do what they're told at the weekends by the state.
I don't know, but it doesn't sound too conservative.
This is the least libertarian Government of my lifetime.
Not sure if anyone from left or right could disagree with that, even those a lot older than I?
Blair tried to introduce ID cards, 90 day detention without trial and ASBOs. He was someone so sure that whatever the police do must be right that he voluntarily submitted his DNA to a database, presumably so they could catch him for a crime he committed in the future (though apparently not war crimes).
Starmer will probably be even worse. He would probably still have us in lockdown as he opposed every measure to relax it.
Blair and New Labour definitely had some authoritarian tendencies. Personally I wouldn't put ID cards in there with the rest of that list...
I'm more optimistic about Starmer. He's been a human rights lawyer and will have seen a lot of miscarriages of justice. But my worry is that he is so desperate to win, that he may feel he has to act tough and compromise his principles.
Yep exactly.
I can’t really see someone who had a successful career as a human rights lawyer then suddenly banning them.
What yesterday’s Sunday Times double piece said, which I now discover was similar to George Eaton’s New Statesman piece, is that Starmer does not follow ideology. He’s all about pragmatism.
Well thank BLOODY goodness for that, I say!
I am sick and bloody tired of stupid ideological politicians screwing up our lives. Give me some pragmatism and competence now, please.
What was interesting about the New Labour authoritarianism was the nature of it. Not aggressive, just an innate belief that there should be no limits on what the government can do.
Good morning everyone. That’s a greeting, not a wish that Conservative supporters have to stop feeling pessimistic.
Mrs Cole has just asked me a question to which I don’t know the answer…… one of many over the years, of course, but this time people here may be able to help. Does this National Service thing apply to both sexes, or just males. If so, do girls get the military option? (We know there are women in the Armed Services.)
It really can't be boys only
There was a stunning interview on r4 pick of the week last night. Female us f16 fighter pilot, just qualified on 9/11 but still in training squadron so no live weapons, sent up with instructions to collide with flight 93 to prevent it reaching Washington [spoiler: it had actually crashed by the time she took off,,but she didn't know that].
Question to which Sunak’s answer will be IDK!…… What about girls who are pregnant and/or mothers?
@Steven_Swinford A minister has said that the Conservative's new national service scheme was 'sprung on' MPs and candidates without consultation
Steve Baker, an NI minister, said that the policy 'was developed by a political adviser or advisers and sprung on candidates, some of whom are relevant ministers'
It’s almost as though this policy hasn’t been properly thought through and has been written on back of a fag packet (now that cigs aren’t going to be banned)
IANAE but inventing a new policy on the spur of the moment might be a risky game to play.
But it hasn’t been. It has been in development a while. William Hague has been involved in crafting it.
Sounds like the crap Vague would come up with for sure.
I thought you were all for compelling today's feckless youth to do time polishing boots and marching around parade grounds?
I would make the b*ggers work. Get them out sweeping the streets, picking up litter , getting chewing gum off pavements, painting graffiti and helping old ladies across the street. 8 am - 5pm with 30 minutes for lunch. Pay retired soldiers to ensure disciplne and no slacking. No cushy billets.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Yes - the Tory vote is more suppressed than Labour's in Scotland, so there is a chance that in the massive churn of votes the Tories sneak a few gains.
Tactical voting is going to be confused and unpredictable. No one knows what is going on. The Greens have just announced that they will run in all of the Glasgow seats, but are polling very low in the Scottish Westminster GE polls, for example.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
Who is the Labour leader? His name is Starmer ... Keir Starmer.
Famously, but perhaps apocryphally, Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones was modelled on him.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I've clearly got on your nerves, it's funny to be called "embarrassing" by one of the most partisan posters here.
I don’t think @TSE can be accused of being one of the most partisan posters. Considering he’s openly a Conservative he does a very good job of presenting threads from a wide range of perspectives.
The only thing I don’t like is his sometimes descending into personal abuse, such as calling you ‘a bloody embarrassment’. It’s unbecoming and unnecessary for the site leader. Keep the gravitas TSE and you’re doing well. Thank you for oiling this machine through the febrile election campaign.
TSE voted LD in 2017 and 2019 I believe. However now the working class redwall Leave voters have gone back to Labour or switched to Reform TSE has indeed said the Tories are posh enough again for him to vote Tory again for the first time since he voted for and campaigned for Dave in 2015 (of course Lord Cameron is in Sunak's cabinet too)
@Steven_Swinford A minister has said that the Conservative's new national service scheme was 'sprung on' MPs and candidates without consultation
Steve Baker, an NI minister, said that the policy 'was developed by a political adviser or advisers and sprung on candidates, some of whom are relevant ministers'
It’s almost as though this policy hasn’t been properly thought through and has been written on back of a fag packet (now that cigs aren’t going to be banned)
IANAE but inventing a new policy on the spur of the moment might be a risky game to play.
But it hasn’t been. It has been in development a while. William Hague has been involved in crafting it.
Sounds like the crap Vague would come up with for sure.
I thought you were all for compelling today's feckless youth to do time polishing boots and marching around parade grounds?
I would make the b*ggers work. Get them out sweeping the streets, picking up litter , getting chewing gum off pavements, painting graffiti and helping old ladies across the street. 8 am - 5pm with 30 minutes for lunch. Pay retired soldiers to ensure disciplne and no slacking. No cushy billets.
Would they get a break for National Tea Time?
Hang on, what about us tea-hating coffee drinkers? And will there be vegan options?
If Labour had any balls they'd scrap the triple lock.
Minor amendment: If Labour wish to lose the election they'd scrap the triple lock
Politically it would probably be a disaster but I cannot see why we should keep it at this stage.
Because major party manifestos are a compromise between two things - setting out what you'd like to do if elected AND getting elected.
The first is genuinely important both in terms of ensuring you get legislation through both Houses of Parliament, and setting priorities for the civil service (these aren't whims of an individual here today, gone tomorrow minister - they are top of the departmental plan). But the second is pretty damned important too, as you don't get to do the first without it.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Has anyone done a seat projection from that Scottish poll? Because it is vital for knowing the landing zone percentage lead for majority/NOM. Apologies if already posted.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
Labour is now where our focus should be - look at the polls.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
I actually agree with you there, from a political strategy perspective. That's why, even if a net neutral or slight positive, the National Service thing was silly.
The Ming vase strategy requires Labour to get through 6 weeks of as little media coverage as possible. That will be easy if we get more National Service type policies from Sunak.
It's about denying any oxygen to Reform and rallying the base; it also shifts the debate to defence and security - and away from cost of living where Labour would like it.
SKS has responded by basically taking yesterday off to decide how to respond, so it has disrupted their grid, and he's trying to make a speech about security atm, but it hasn't got much beyond his first job "clearing stones for farmers" so far, which did make me chuckle.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
In that scenario I look forward to SLab (who haven’t a scooby of winning a SCon seat) taking responsibility for keeping the Scottish Tory flame alive.
@Steven_Swinford There is a lot of bad blood among Tory MPs - including from many members of the Cabinet - over Rishi Sunak's unilateral decision to call an early election
Sustaining party discipline will be challenging, especially in marginal seats
Steve Baker's criticism of Rishi Sunak's flagship national service scheme could be a sign of things to come
Steve Baker, a Northern Ireland minister, thinks he could be sacked as a candidate for speaking out against Rishi Sunak's flagship National Service policy
He's not backing down. 'He knows he could be sacked as a candidate and he thinks it would be worth it'
The bad blood from Tory MPs is on several fronts:
* Some say it has made their chances of holding onto their constituencies much lower - they simply haven't had enough time to prepare
* There are complaints that they haven't had enough time to raise the funding they need
* There is anger that Sunak went straight out to campaign without meeting MPs
* Cabinet ministers were completely cut of the picture - Sunak had already been to see the King when he told them about plan for July 4 election
* Some of them are on a fundamental level fearful about their own futures - they are really worried about their own livelihoods and those of their staff
Steve Baker knows he has less than an ice cubes chance in hell of winning his seat at this election at which point his political career is dead .
Being removed from the election is his only way of surviving so I can see why he’s plying the games he is…
@Steven_Swinford A minister has said that the Conservative's new national service scheme was 'sprung on' MPs and candidates without consultation
Steve Baker, an NI minister, said that the policy 'was developed by a political adviser or advisers and sprung on candidates, some of whom are relevant ministers'
It’s almost as though this policy hasn’t been properly thought through and has been written on back of a fag packet (now that cigs aren’t going to be banned)
IANAE but inventing a new policy on the spur of the moment might be a risky game to play.
But it hasn’t been. It has been in development a while. William Hague has been involved in crafting it.
Sounds like the crap Vague would come up with for sure.
I thought you were all for compelling today's feckless youth to do time polishing boots and marching around parade grounds?
I would make the b*ggers work. Get them out sweeping the streets, picking up litter , getting chewing gum off pavements, painting graffiti and helping old ladies across the street. 8 am - 5pm with 30 minutes for lunch. Pay retired soldiers to ensure disciplne and no slacking. No cushy billets.
Would they get a break for National Tea Time?
Hang on, what about us tea-hating coffee drinkers? And will there be vegan options?
Nice example of why politics and statute drafting is hard. The Afternoon Tea Act 2025 will need 120 sections and 47 schedules and the debate over exemptions (The Bakewell Tart Regulations are only one example) takes 9 days in the House of Commons.
I mean, unless you are abolishing them and paying them directly by the state you have to do some kind of review because it is very difficult and involves squaring off different stakeholders.
A party that just puts forward any policy that isn't just lavishing funds on the sector without a pretty lengthy consultation and working out is asking for trouble.
Good morning everyone. That’s a greeting, not a wish that Conservative supporters have to stop feeling pessimistic.
Mrs Cole has just asked me a question to which I don’t know the answer…… one of many over the years, of course, but this time people here may be able to help. Does this National Service thing apply to both sexes, or just males. If so, do girls get the military option? (We know there are women in the Armed Services.)
It really can't be boys only
There was a stunning interview on r4 pick of the week last night. Female us f16 fighter pilot, just qualified on 9/11 but still in training squadron so no live weapons, sent up with instructions to collide with flight 93 to prevent it reaching Washington [spoiler: it had actually crashed by the time she took off,,but she didn't know that].
F-16 always flies with at least 100 rounds in the gun to maintain CoG limits so "Lucky" Penney wasn't totally unarmed as the legend now has it. However, that might not have been enough to bring down UA93 (M61 will do 100 rounds in one second) so a Sonderkommando Elbe style ramming attack was always a possibility. Aim for the cockpit and bang out at the last second. Home for tea and medals.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Has anyone done a seat projection from that Scottish poll? Because it is vital for knowing the landing zone percentage lead for majority/NOM. Apologies if already posted.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Has anyone done a seat projection from that Scottish poll? Because it is vital for knowing the landing zone percentage lead for majority/NOM. Apologies if already posted.
Electoral Calculus (rolls eyes) says Lab 29 SNP 16 Con 7 LD 5.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Yes - the Tory vote is more suppressed than Labour's in Scotland, so there is a chance that in the massive churn of votes the Tories sneak a few gains.
Tactical voting is going to be confused and unpredictable. No one knows what is going on. The Greens have just announced that they will run in all of the Glasgow seats, but are polling very low in the Scottish Westminster GE polls, for example.
Tory gains in Scotland feel rather implausible to me as I suspect they will struggle to tempt non-Tory unionists against a backdrop of unpopularity of the UK Government. Maybe, but I struggle to see it.
Spain is set to announce a new massive 1.13 billion Euro ($1.23 billion) military aid package for Ukraine.
The package will include roughly 12 additional PATRIOT interceptors, 19 Leopard 2A4s, and a large number of additional systems procured from the Spanish defense industry. https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1794986685085757806
No longer are they just sending obsolete kit from reserves: "..Most of the funding will go to Spanish companies to procure new equipment for Ukraine.."
A Patriot battery is $1bn each so I presume that's 12 missiles. It'll all be over by Xmas.
Spain was never going to be a large donor of Patriot missiles (and at $4m a pop, they're a minor part of the package).
The 2A4s will double their tank contribution.
More significant is the growth in arms production.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
Who is the Labour leader? His name is Starmer ... Keir Starmer.
Famously, but perhaps apocryphally, Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones was modelled on him.
I never got a “son of a toolmaker” vibe off Mark Darcy, more upper middle class son of a lawyer by way of Radley and Oxford. Maybe it was a different human rights lawyer she based him on.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
Labour is now where our focus should be - look at the polls.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
I actually agree with you there, from a political strategy perspective. That's why, even if a net neutral or slight positive, the National Service thing was silly.
The Ming vase strategy requires Labour to get through 6 weeks of as little media coverage as possible. That will be easy if we get more National Service type policies from Sunak.
It's about denying any oxygen to Reform and rallying the base; it also shifts the debate to defence and security - and away from cost of living where Labour would like it.
SKS has responded by basically taking yesterday off to decide how to respond, so it has disrupted their grid, and he's trying to make a speech about security atm, but it hasn't got much beyond his first job "clearing stones for farmers" so far, which did make me chuckle.
You see, this is the sort of thing where you lose credibility. The Labour grid yesterday was reassurance on income tax/NI, and it got the sorts of headlines it was intended to get.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Has anyone done a seat projection from that Scottish poll? Because it is vital for knowing the landing zone percentage lead for majority/NOM. Apologies if already posted.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
Has anyone done a seat projection from that Scottish poll? Because it is vital for knowing the landing zone percentage lead for majority/NOM. Apologies if already posted.
The 4% for Reform looks a bit whiffy. The mind boggles at the type of candidates they’ll dig up (literally?) for Scotland.
The tea at 4pm proposal is fairly sound, but it needs a R4 Today gotcha interview about whether this is enforced by custodial sentences are merely a fine. There is also the question of how to afford two sorts of cake (Victoria sponge and coffee and walnut for me please) what with the cost of living and all that.
My 2 favourite cakes. You've got my vote.
I thought Dundee cake would be your thing?
Dundee cake is fine but Victoria sponge well made with a slightly tart jam to offset the sweetness of the cream and coffee and walnut are simply divine. @algarkirk is a man of excellent taste and judgment.
One Downing Street insider called the 61- year-old Labour leader "Sleepy Keir", an apparent attempt to link him in the public's mind to the US's 81-year-old President Joe Biden, dubbed "Sleepy Joe" by Donald Trump. "Campaigns are tough, tiring things and it's understandable that he may be weary," said a Tory campaign official. "But being prime minister is a 24/7 job which requires stamina."
They really are very bad at this, considering whatever you think of him Starmer looks a young 61, famously plays football every week and kind of looks like a Thunderbirds character gone slightly to seed.
If it were Corbyn it would make sense, if still daft. But not here.
Plus, what a way to insult the only people in the country still voting for you as past it.
I honestly think SKS is quite a sexy man. I say as a straight man.
Who is the Labour leader? His name is Starmer ... Keir Starmer.
Famously, but perhaps apocryphally, Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones was modelled on him.
I never got a “son of a toolmaker” vibe off Mark Darcy, more upper middle class son of a lawyer by way of Radley and Oxford. Maybe it was a different human rights lawyer she based him on.
Did the Tories not support detention without charge?
I just can't support such a policy, innocent until proven guilty. Always.
They opposed it at 90 days and 56 days.
That's not opposed it full stop, is it?
God, you're embarrassing. Being detained without charge has existed for many years, it gives the police/CPS time to gather evidence/make decisions.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
I would be bitterly opposed to that policy.
But I do feel you ought to be reminding everyone of the context: 9/11 and 7/7
I’m not justifying it, just contextualising it.
No need to remind about the context - it was every bit as unacceptable at the time. It's just a shame more MPs didn't also take the same view of the Iraq war.
Seeing as @Casino_Royale has openly admitted that he will be campaigning for the Conservative Party his posts are effectively @HYUFD style party political broadcasts
I know it's unwelcome to you to have another point of view intrude into your happy echo chamber but you're going to have to put up with it for the next 6 weeks, I'm afraid.
It's called democracy.
Is it actually your point of view though or is it actually the point of view of the party which seems to change at the drop of a hat
I always share on here my point of view.
I look forward to you criticising aspects of the Tory manifesto that you disagree with
Labour is now where our focus should be - look at the polls.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
I actually agree with you there, from a political strategy perspective. That's why, even if a net neutral or slight positive, the National Service thing was silly.
The Ming vase strategy requires Labour to get through 6 weeks of as little media coverage as possible. That will be easy if we get more National Service type policies from Sunak.
It's about denying any oxygen to Reform and rallying the base; it also shifts the debate to defence and security - and away from cost of living where Labour would like it.
SKS has responded by basically taking yesterday off to decide how to respond, so it has disrupted their grid, and he's trying to make a speech about security atm, but it hasn't got much beyond his first job "clearing stones for farmers" so far, which did make me chuckle.
You see, this is the sort of thing where you lose credibility. The Labour grid yesterday was reassurance on income tax/NI, and it got the sorts of headlines it was intended to get.
No, credibility isn't the same as agreeing with you.
No-one clocked or talked about the income tax/NI stuff yesterday, even though you'd have liked them to, because it was all about national service and the private schools policy.
More in Common has a swing of 3.5% from SNP to Tory. So while in England and Wales the Conservatives look headed for a 1997 style landslide defeat, in Scotland the Scottish Tories may even gain some seats from the SNP and avoid the wipeout they got in 1997
In that scenario I look forward to SLab (who haven’t a scooby of winning a SCon seat) taking responsibility for keeping the Scottish Tory flame alive.
There are one or two, like Dumfries and Galloway, which might be classed as a three way. A resurgent Labour party may create a few more. There are a few seats like Stirling which were once Labour held where they have not been in contention recently.
But yes, Labour and the SNP should really be focused on each other.
Spain is set to announce a new massive 1.13 billion Euro ($1.23 billion) military aid package for Ukraine.
The package will include roughly 12 additional PATRIOT interceptors, 19 Leopard 2A4s, and a large number of additional systems procured from the Spanish defense industry. https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1794986685085757806
No longer are they just sending obsolete kit from reserves: "..Most of the funding will go to Spanish companies to procure new equipment for Ukraine.."
War, what is it good for absolutely nothing domestic arms manufacturers....
South Korea is an interesting case - by selling its weapons abroad, it keeps the production lines open and running. With a large quantity of inventory ready to go at any time.
Which means that they are really, really ready. If the North goes South....
Last week I gave some praise to Sunak for a bit of political nous for once; seizing the initiative. Turns out he has managed to do that badly too; he has no actual plan with what to do with it.
Labour are better prepared for an election footing with Tory members and campaigners seemingly being caught off guard with this fairly random announcement.
In poker terms he is blundering all-in pre-flop with a low pair before his opponents have even bet, failing to understand that boldness is not an end in and of itself.
@Steven_Swinford A minister has said that the Conservative's new national service scheme was 'sprung on' MPs and candidates without consultation
Steve Baker, an NI minister, said that the policy 'was developed by a political adviser or advisers and sprung on candidates, some of whom are relevant ministers'
It’s almost as though this policy hasn’t been properly thought through and has been written on back of a fag packet (now that cigs aren’t going to be banned)
IANAE but inventing a new policy on the spur of the moment might be a risky game to play.
But it hasn’t been. It has been in development a while. William Hague has been involved in crafting it.
Sounds like the crap Vague would come up with for sure.
I thought you were all for compelling today's feckless youth to do time polishing boots and marching around parade grounds?
I would make the b*ggers work. Get them out sweeping the streets, picking up litter , getting chewing gum off pavements, painting graffiti and helping old ladies across the street. 8 am - 5pm with 30 minutes for lunch. Pay retired soldiers to ensure disciplne and no slacking. No cushy billets.
Would they get a break for National Tea Time?
Hang on, what about us tea-hating coffee drinkers? And will there be vegan options?
Nice example of why politics and statute drafting is hard. The Afternoon Tea Act 2025 will need 120 sections and 47 schedules and the debate over exemptions (The Bakewell Tart Regulations are only one example) takes 9 days in the House of Commons.
Remember the argument over whether Jaffas were cakes or biscuits. Went all the way to high legal arbitration.
Comments
Pretty-much the last time this country was relaxed and happy.
But his public speaking style is rather dreary.
"Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”
He doesn't really mind if you enjoy doing it, but it doesn't give what Kant would call 'bragging rights'.
She was struggling with bags from Tesco
There were people from the city havin' lunch in the park
I believe that is called al fresco
When a kid came along to offer a hand
But before she had time to accept it
Hits her over the head, doesn't care if she's dead
'Cause he's got all her jewellery and wallet
I fear I may have spotted (yet another) flaw in this plan.
To the extent that Blair was relatively popular his premiership from 1997-2007 coincided with some of the most benign economic conditions we'd ever experienced, though for most of the last half of it everyone was constantly nervous about the threat of Islamic terrorism.
Blair wanted to increase pre charge detention from 14 days to 90 days, when that was defeated he tried to compromise at 56 days, which was defeated again.
Blair had a massive strop saying anyone opposed to 90/56 days detention without charges was effectively helping terrorists.
So if he is convinced it is necessary to perpetuate his rule there is very little he won't do.
This is no very great criticism of Starmer. We shouldn't underestimate how difficult it is to do the contrary, when our political system does so much to dissuade people from putting principle above expediency.
It's called democracy.
But I do feel you ought to be reminding everyone of the context: 9/11 and 7/7
I’m not justifying it, just contextualising it.
I do wonder with some of the Tory lines whether they aren't flattering Sunak's ego a bit. I think he has a bit of a self-image of a dynamic, high-energy, action man. But it isn't very realistic.
Blair was wrong, as I said initially. The fact the Tories opposed that is a good mark in their column, not everything they do is bad.
I've clearly got on your nerves, it's funny to be called "embarrassing" by one of the most partisan posters here.
At least 20% of the population still vote Conservative, some of them enthusiastically, despite everything. We need to hear their truth too.
On my local town Facebook group a thread developed yesterday because of the closure of the school and the admin shut it down because it was "becoming a party political broadcast" (it wasn't, someone had just posted the Telegraph article) and there were several replies to it saying it had absolutely nothing to do with Labour - which got lots of likes - whilst others disagreeing vociferously were deleted.
I remember Charles Clarke, then Home Secretary, looking like a complete tool on Question Time when asked if he could cite any examples where the 90 day detention limit would have made a difference.
Putin, Xi and Trump are all pragmatists. The Blair line "What counts is what works" reveals nothing and conceals everything.
He is just pacing himself and preparing well, not throwing ideas from the random policy generator without prepping his own team.
He has a remorseless, meticulous well briefed plan and will stick to it as far as he can.
Mrs Cole has just asked me a question to which I don’t know the answer…… one of many over the years, of course, but this time people here may be able to help.
Does this National Service thing apply to both sexes, or just males. If so, do girls get the military option? (We know there are women in the Armed Services.)
The only thing I don’t like is his sometimes descending into personal abuse, such as calling you ‘a bloody embarrassment’. It’s unbecoming and unnecessary for the site leader. Keep the gravitas TSE and you’re doing well. Thank you for oiling this machine through the febrile election campaign.
I think basically that's the point at this election, SKS would be destroyed by a Tory who didn't have 14 years to defend and had a vague bit of charisma. But he's up against Rishi Sunak who is worse in basically every way.
I remember when some people said Rishi was quite good at public speaking, I am still not totally clear what they were smoking.
What I would say for HYUFD is he does know the Tory membership well (or at least in his area) and offers insights into by-election campaigns etc. There's a lot of partisan stuff as well, but you take the rough with the smooth.
Just find it funny to be called "embarrassing".
But then I also thought David was a good looking man.
How about you look forward to me pointing out that SKS is far from the best thing since sliced bread and many of the policies he is proposing will exacerbate the problems in this country, not solve them?
There is a lot of bad blood among Tory MPs - including from many members of the Cabinet - over Rishi Sunak's unilateral decision to call an early election
Sustaining party discipline will be challenging, especially in marginal seats
Steve Baker's criticism of Rishi Sunak's flagship national service scheme could be a sign of things to come
Steve Baker, a Northern Ireland minister, thinks he could be sacked as a candidate for speaking out against Rishi Sunak's flagship National Service policy
He's not backing down. 'He knows he could be sacked as a candidate and he thinks it would be worth it'
The bad blood from Tory MPs is on several fronts:
* Some say it has made their chances of holding onto their constituencies much lower - they simply haven't had enough time to prepare
* There are complaints that they haven't had enough time to raise the funding they need
* There is anger that Sunak went straight out to campaign without meeting MPs
* Cabinet ministers were completely cut of the picture - Sunak had already been to see the King when he told them about plan for July 4 election
* Some of them are on a fundamental level fearful about their own futures - they are really worried about their own livelihoods and those of their staff
That is one of the strengths of this site. It is a usually civil place for activists to debate and argue, as well as occasionally bet or swap travel and dining tips.
I was contextualising it, which is important.
And I don’t think you can truthfully tar “Labour" with a brush that was applied 20 years ago. This is the problem with election campaigns, normally nuanced people who have a particular Party allegiance readily become more imbalanced.
As I’m sure you know, many people in the Labour Party came to loathe Tony Blair.
There was a stunning interview on r4 pick of the week last night. Female us f16 fighter pilot, just qualified on 9/11 but still in training squadron so no live weapons, sent up with instructions to collide with flight 93 to prevent it reaching Washington [spoiler: it had actually crashed by the time she took off,,but she didn't know that].
But this is the kind of thing that I can understand politically why they don't do it - but immediately after the election they should go back on it and scrap it.
How about a triple lock for young people?
His name is Starmer ... Keir Starmer.
The Ming vase strategy requires Labour to get through 6 weeks of as little media coverage as possible. That will be easy if we get more National Service type policies from Sunak.
Which is why we need to automate the strawberry picking.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jun/01/uk-raspberry-picking-robot-soft-fruit
That isn't going to change.
And he's right, all we've talked about is this plan for the last two days.
What about girls who are pregnant and/or mothers?
Says:
“They are just so desperate. They are rummaging around in the toy box”
https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1795025440114897155
Why on Earth would they go after his age, what a silly line of attack. ATTACK HIS POLICIES.
“There is a powerful case for change and we are looking at options.”
Says he has ruled out abolishing tuition fees because it costs too much.
https://x.com/kateferguson4/status/1795028730219274615
Well, they'll be putting them up then.
Tactical voting is going to be confused and unpredictable. No one knows what is going on. The Greens have just announced that they will run in all of the Glasgow seats, but are polling very low in the Scottish Westminster GE polls, for example.
Leave voters have gone back
to Labour or switched to Reform TSE has indeed said the Tories are posh enough again for him to vote Tory again for the first time since he voted for and campaigned for Dave in 2015 (of course Lord Cameron is in Sunak's cabinet too)
https://x.com/iainjwatson/status/1795029773984383374
WEAK. WEAK. WEAK.
The first is genuinely important both in terms of ensuring you get legislation through both Houses of Parliament, and setting priorities for the civil service (these aren't whims of an individual here today, gone tomorrow minister - they are top of the departmental plan). But the second is pretty damned important too, as you don't get to do the first without it.
D’ya reckon Sunak’s team are rummaging around on politicalbetting.com for ideas?
Because it is vital for knowing the landing zone percentage lead for majority/NOM.
Apologies if already posted.
SKS has responded by basically taking yesterday off to decide how to respond, so it has disrupted their grid, and he's trying to make a speech about security atm, but it hasn't got much beyond his first job "clearing stones for farmers" so far, which did make me chuckle.
Being removed from the election is his only way of surviving so I can see why he’s plying the games he is…
Until he's in office.
A party that just puts forward any policy that isn't just lavishing funds on the sector without a pretty lengthy consultation and working out is asking for trouble.
@RishiSunak
Not a single plan for the future.
Our country needs bold action, not waffle.
The 2A4s will double their tank contribution.
More significant is the growth in arms production.
So the natural orsder of things will remain and the sun will continue to rotate around the earth in the view of the Tory Party.
That's a big chunk of what is needed.
Starmer doesn’t really need to say or do a lot. He certainly doesn’t need to be seen rushing around like a breathless puppy.
Especially when the Conservatives seem so hell-bent on self-destruction.
It's just a shame more MPs didn't also take the same view of the Iraq war.
No-one clocked or talked about the income tax/NI stuff yesterday, even though you'd have liked them to, because it was all about national service and the private schools policy.
But yes, Labour and the SNP should really be focused on each other.
Which means that they are really, really ready. If the North goes South....
Labour are better prepared for an election footing with Tory members and campaigners seemingly being caught off guard with this fairly random announcement.
In poker terms he is blundering all-in pre-flop with a low pair before his opponents have even bet, failing to understand that boldness is not an end in and of itself.