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  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    AndyJS said:

    tim said:

    AndyJS said:

    The BBC's projection is a bit odd because if UKIP are averaging 25% in contested seats you'd expect them to go a lot lower than the projected share of 23% once you include places like London, Scotland, Wales, Birmingham, etc.

    I can't see UKIP only dropping 2 percentage points once you include those areas.


    They'll be on about 2/3rds of that once Scotland,London, Wales and the Northern conurbations are accounted for
    Yes but this BBC projection is supposed to have already taken into account how the whole country would have voted. They're saying that even with London, Scotland, Wales, etc, UKIP would be on 23%. That doesn't sound right to me.
    Are you sure that's what it means? I haven't got the telly but looking at the numbers on the website I'm reading "national projected" as meaning "when all the local elections in the nation have finished counting".
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,512
    My favourite North London councillor has just pleaded guilty to common assault.
  • Following delays from PP earlier, it's now high time for Ladbrokes to settle winning bets on UKIP winning >100 seats. According to Rob's brilliant spreadsheet they have now reached 140 seats.

    I imagine that this market is going to cost the Magic Sign dear - this betting opportunity was well flagged on PB and the likes of OGH (by his own admission in this instance) and PtP don't exactly bet in conkers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    TGOHF said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rob's spreadsheet has Ukip on 140 total ?

    Is that correct.

    How dare you question my work! ;)

    Sorry - my question should have been - you appear to be far ahead of the mainstream media outlets with your numbers..
    I'm being naughty and including incomplete councils in my tallies. This means my change figures are wrong, but composition numbers are more up to date.
  • Will Nigel Farage be the candidate for skegness/boston or will he target a southern seat?

    Well he's a Herne Bay boy. He's a South East MEP and just down the road in Thanet are two Conservative constituencies which have just returned 7 out of 8 UKIP candidates.

    Not only that in Thanet South is a Roon loyalist named Laura Sandys who is drenched in Europhilia. Her father just happened to be one of the founders of the European Movement (Duncan Sandys) in the UK. How symbolic would it be for Farage to defeat his daughter?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    @AveryLP don't forget to update us all when those last two Kent seats come in. Thanks!
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Sean_F said:

    My favourite North London councillor has just pleaded guilty to common assault.

    Did you read what the judge said about him? Previous good character?! I thought it must have been a different Brian Coleman in the dock!
  • After 1,972 results in BBC model losses are LD -26.1% and C -21.4%. Extrapolation FWIW is
    C -328, Lab +251, LD -126
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2013
    Paul Francis @PaulOnPolitics
    Final tally #kent_cc: Conservatives 45, #UKIP 17, #labour 13, Lib Dems 7, Green 1, Independent 1 #kccelection

    Yet another council now has Kippers as the Official Opposition - WTF? How many is that? Kent and Norfolk - any others?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Because the Labour Council has failed, over decades, to regenerate it?

    Never mind ooor-Emma's on the job and she's promising to do what the Labour Council should have done....

    ....just as soon as she's moved from Jarrow....
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @smithersjones

    I agree that it makes sense for Farage to stick the south and that suggestion seems as good as any. He should just pick early and dig in and stay dug in between now and May 2015. If he stays away from airplanes he might even do it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Rob's spreadsheet has Ukip on 140 total ?

    Is that correct.

    How dare you question my work! ;)

    Sorry - my question should have been - you appear to be far ahead of the mainstream media outlets with your numbers..
    I'm being naughty and including incomplete councils in my tallies. This means my change figures are wrong, but composition numbers are more up to date.
    Cool - no I prefer that - I guess that means that the losses in change figures for blue and yellow are the max they can be now - and will actually be less?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited May 2013
    Neil said:

    MikeK said:

    Michael Heaver ‏@Michael_Heaver
    Green Leader @natalieben said they'd win more seats than UKIP. Greens on 16. UKIP on 108. Fringe vs. mainstream.

    Aah! Revenge is sweet. ;)

    I'm not her biggest fan but I really doubt she said the Greens would win more seats in yesterday's elections (they're the weakest part of the electoral cycle for us). Surely she said we'd have more Cllrs in total than UKIP after yesterday's elections. Something that looks like a close run thing but will probably come to pass (though I'm missing a few councils so could be wrong).
    I'm so sorry to disillusion you but the Aussi Greens chief did indeed say that the greens would gain more seats than UKIP. I know. I heard and saw her say that on TV a few nights ago.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sean_F said:

    My favourite North London councillor has just pleaded guilty to common assault.

    How mortifying! Common assault!

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BBC are putting UKIP gains at 136:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21240025
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    LAB Hold Durham
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013
    corporeal said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Can I take the UKIP East/West divide as making up for my catastrophic Romney error?

    Your obsession with a Romney win was a bit whimsical. Particularly, when it was reinforced by your visit to the States.

    All is forgiven. I don't remember anyone else actually mentioning the East/West divide. What's behind it ? East Europeans settling numbers ?
    It's not just Slovaks picking sprouts: UKIP have done well in eastern areas less impacted by immigration. It is perhaps an archaic cultural thing, as I speculate on a Telegraph blog, where I shamelessly nicked Morris Dancer's "ukipalypse".

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100215196/eastern-england-is-in-rebellion-this-has-happened-before/
    "Why is eastern England the cradle of English rebellion? That is more difficult to say"

    It's fairly easy to say really, namely you're picking selectively to create a pattern (If you were really trying hard you could include Kett's rebellion etc). There are certain factors involved to do with the type of land (agricultural vs pastoral) but you could construct a similar pattern in the north (The Rising of the North being one of the most famous).
    Or the West: the Cornish Rebellion, the Prayer Book Rebellion, the Western Rising etc. I'm note even sure how concrete this UKIP East-West split is. Sussex, Kent, Hampshire were all good performances from UKIP yet are the wrong side of the Danelaw line. They also did better in Cumbria than Northumbria.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    8 seats for Labour in Cornwall.

    What did Ios predict?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    MikeK said:


    I'm so sorry to disillusion you but the Aussi Greens chief did indeed say that the greens would gain more seats than UKIP. I know. I heard and saw her say that on TV a few nights ago.

    Indeed, someone since posted the link. You can see why I thought it was too crazy a thing for anyone with any sense to say though.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Mr. Tokyo, thanks for posting that fascinating map. I knew the area around The Wash was previously swampy, but I was unaware of the Yorkshire swampiness.

    It's also mildly amusing that when considering 21st century politics we're looking at the impact of a 9th century division.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    NOC hold Ynys Mon.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Labour winning in target marginals.

    UKIP splitting the Tory vote.

    Lib Dems holding their own against the Tories.

    A perfect storm is brewing for the Blue Team.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    Just northamptonshire to go now!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Can I take the UKIP East/West divide as making up for my catastrophic Romney error?

    Your obsession with a Romney win was a bit whimsical. Particularly, when it was reinforced by your visit to the States.

    All is forgiven. I don't remember anyone else actually mentioning the East/West divide. What's behind it ? East Europeans settling numbers ?
    It's not just Slovaks picking sprouts: UKIP have done well in eastern areas less impacted by immigration. It is perhaps an archaic cultural thing, as I speculate on a Telegraph blog, where I shamelessly nicked Morris Dancer's "ukipalypse".

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100215196/eastern-england-is-in-rebellion-this-has-happened-before/

    You miss possibly the most cricial event of all - the division of England into Wessex and Danelaw in the 9th century. The place names of eastern England are very different to those of the west, as are the accents (of course). Inheritance, land holding, all kinds of things were affected by the split, long after it ended - including, no doubt, how peope view the world. Alfred and Guthrum created a monster that Nigel Farage, with some help from Dave and George, has begun to reawaken. And there is nothing that EdM can do about it. We are going back to the future.

    Amazingly, a genetic map of the UK shows that UKIP do best in areas of the most intense Anglo-Saxon settlement (not Viking):

    http://germanataston.blogs.aston.ac.uk/files/2011/06/Anglo-Saxon_map-2-244x300.jpg

    That is interesting. But what is certain is that things developed very differently east and west of Watling Street. Perhaps it's more a case of who was in charge rather than who lived on the land. Even now, when you cross the A5 just past Rugby you see the place name style change almost immediately, along with the accent. I believe there are under 10 place names in the whole of England to the west of the A5 that have a Danish/Viking element, and most of them are within 10 miles of the border (Rugby is one of them). It's a different country.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    AndyJS said:

    BBC are putting UKIP gains at 136:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21240025

    Yeah I wouldn't expect numbers to match up exactly. I think my numbers don't take into account boundary changes for instance.
  • dragontreedragontree Posts: 27
    Labour doing well where they need footsoldiers and resources.

    Frankly it was a disgrace that in marginals in the midlands labour were spending nothing and having no footsoldiers while the conservatives were carpet bombing constituencies with people and leaflets.

    Thank goodness I kept Nicky Morgans leaflets in 2010. I've already given some copies to UKIP who raise a smile when seeing how she has voted once in power.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013

    Remarkable remarkable time in British politics. Just watched the Farage interview on the Telegraph site. God, difficult not to like him to be honest. Comes across as an ordinary bloke unlike the Westminster clowns (yep) that have bankrupted this country and cut across most people's wishes.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10035780/Local-elections-2013-Ukips-leader-Nigel-Farage-drinks-to-his-success.html

    Yes, he comes across as a real nice bloke, good fun, but determined.

    Roger thinks he comes across like Adolf Hitler!!
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    It's strange that UKIP didn't pick up more seats in the South West. UKIP expected more there and and they'll be disappointed. Perhaps SeanT can give us an answer.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    CON Hold Northamptonshire!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Maybe this east-west divide isn't about Danelaw. Maybe it's about Celt versus Saxon.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited May 2013
    Labour will have less than 550 of the 2400 + contested seat.

    One nation..
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    SeanT said:

    UKIP claiming 144 gains. Going to be perilously close to that symbolic 150.

    An exceptional performance, from a standing start. When was the last local election like this? Where a party has gone from almost zero to 25% of the vote?

    You need to look no further than Beppe Grillo and the Five Star Movement in Italy.

    Party formed in 2009 and share of vote in 2013 Parliamentary elections 25.55% (Chamber of Deputies) and 23.79% (Senate).

    Very similar phenomenon, except Farage is probably the better comic.

    And the UK still has FPTP to protect us from the bond markets.

  • BBC losses showing a more even % loss rate after 2,172 results. C -320 -22.9%, LD -106 -23.9%. LAB at +260, well short of R&T expectation.
  • TGOHF said:

    Labour will have less than 550 of the 2400 + contested seat.

    One nation..

    Labour are fighting the Libdems for third place in the south. Some revival

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    On that note I'm off to bed. Hope everyone enjoyed the spreadsheet idea! I think we beat the BBC to declaration for the majority of the councils ;)!

    Maybe for next year I'll have a bit more time in advance and I can have proper gains/losses programmed in, so we can get a sense of how things are moving with every single seat declaration, and not just council declaration!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    carl said:

    Election 2015 midland marginals
    - Leicestershire; Labour would gain Leicestershire NW + Loughborough
    - Nottinghamshire; Labour would gain Broxtowe, Sherwood,
    - Derbyshire; Labour would gain Amber Valley, High Peak, Erewash,
    - Staffordshire; Labour would gain Cannock Chase and Stafford.
    - Lincolnshire; Labour would gain Lincoln
    - Warwickshire; Labour would gain Nuneaton, Warwickshire North, Leamington.


    Looking at the Leics council scores, it does look as if Labour would win both of the Conservative marginals, Loughborough and less easily NW Leics.

    A lot would depend on tactical voting, personal votes UKIP returners etc, but It does look likely that these bellwhether seats would change back to Labour. They were both Labour in 2005, so I would expect a Miliband Majority.

  • samsam Posts: 727
    Neil said:

    MikeK said:


    I'm so sorry to disillusion you but the Aussi Greens chief did indeed say that the greens would gain more seats than UKIP. I know. I heard and saw her say that on TV a few nights ago.

    Indeed, someone since posted the link. You can see why I thought it was too crazy a thing for anyone with any sense to say though.
    I thought she said they wouild have as many as UKIP after the election not gain as many?

  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    An amazing day. Given everyone a headache I think.

    For UKIP, how to maintain momentum and make inroads (given FPTP) before the moment passes.

    For Labour, faced with the changing dynamics, how to hold on to that Brown + lefty lib dem coalition that will see them back in power.

    The Tories have by far the most worries. UKIP splitting their vote unpredictably, Labour winning marginals, Lib Dems not budging against Tory assaults. A perfect storm, and I see no way out for them.

    The Lib Dems, strangely, have the easiest task. Fight like cornered dogs to keep the incumbency / tactical vote intact.
  • RobD said:

    On that note I'm off to bed. Hope everyone enjoyed the spreadsheet idea! I think we beat the BBC to declaration for the majority of the councils ;)!

    Maybe for next year I'll have a bit more time in advance and I can have proper gains/losses programmed in, so we can get a sense of how things are moving with every single seat declaration, and not just council declaration!

    Many thanks for your efforts they are much appreciated!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Can I take the UKIP East/West divide as making up for my catastrophic Romney error?

    Your obsession with a Romney win was a bit whimsical. Particularly, when it was reinforced by your visit to the States.

    All is forgiven. I don't remember anyone else actually mentioning the East/West divide. What's behind it ? East Europeans settling numbers ?
    It's not just Slovaks picking sprouts: UKIP have done well in eastern areas less impacted by immigration. It is perhaps an archaic cultural thing, as I speculate on a Telegraph blog, where I shamelessly nicked Morris Dancer's "ukipalypse".

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100215196/eastern-england-is-in-rebellion-this-has-happened-before/

    You miss possibly the most cricial event of all - the division of England into Wessex and Danelaw in the 9th century. The place names of eastern England are very different to those of the west, as are the accents (of course). Inheritance, land holding, all kinds of things were affected by the split, long after it ended - including, no doubt, how peope view the world. Alfred and Guthrum created a monster that Nigel Farage, with some help from Dave and George, has begun to reawaken. And there is nothing that EdM can do about it. We are going back to the future.

    Amazingly, a genetic map of the UK shows that UKIP do best in areas of the most intense Anglo-Saxon settlement (not Viking):

    http://germanataston.blogs.aston.ac.uk/files/2011/06/Anglo-Saxon_map-2-244x300.jpg

    That is interesting. But what is certain is that things developed very differently east and west of Watling Street. Perhaps it's more a case of who was in charge rather than who lived on the land. Even now, when you cross the A5 just past Rugby you see the place name style change almost immediately, along with the accent. I believe there are under 10 place names in the whole of England to the west of the A5 that have a Danish/Viking element, and most of them are within 10 miles of the border (Rugby is one of them). It's a different country.

    You can argue it several ways, but basically I agree with you that there is an East/West division, and it reflects - coincidentally or not - the intensity of Anglo-Saxon and Viking settlement in England.

    Furthermore, look at this map.

    http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/geneticmap-3-1024.jpg

    UKIP and the Tories, sorry, Anglo-Saxon and Nordic genes are red. Whereas the Cornish are an entirely different genetic cluster, reflecting older patterns of settlement by Celts, Beaker people, and neolithic Iberians.

    And even today Cornish politics are completely distinct from the rest of the country.

    So my friend in Truro has today been elected independent councillor for Tregolls ward.... because a bunch of Basques migrated to Penzance just after the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.

    Fairly remarkable, really.


    It's marvellous.

    "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose"

  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    Following the Northamptonshire results closely as I was working there on polling day. The Tories have a stack of seats with wafer thin majorities. This suggests both UKIP and Labour have made a mess of their targeting, and both missed 3/4 seats they could have won. There are 5 seats still to come where the Lib Dems are in serious contention including Kingsthorpe South we were working yesterday.

    The seat numbers are very flattering for the Tories given their vote share - looks like they have run a smart campaign.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Neil said:

    @smithersjones

    I agree that it makes sense for Farage to stick the south and that suggestion seems as good as any. He should just pick early and dig in and stay dug in between now and May 2015. If he stays away from airplanes he might even do it.

    They've got a bloke in Eastleigh already and whatever they're doing in Boston seems to be working fine as it is, so maybe he should try Folkestone.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    And the minute I post that, Kingsthorpe South comes through as LD by 260 votes - very solid result given the amount of the ward that came in from a strongly Labour area.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    SeanT said:

    So my friend in Truro has today been elected independent councillor for Tregolls ward.... because a bunch of Basques migrated to Penzance just after the Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.

    Bloody immigrants.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    With 40 results to come, Rob's sheet's changes tallies still a mile off reconciling. *confused*.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,512
    carl said:

    Labour winning in target marginals.

    UKIP splitting the Tory vote.

    Lib Dems holding their own against the Tories.

    A perfect storm is brewing for the Blue Team.

    Labour achieved a mighty 3% swing in Stevenage, compared to 2009. The results Labour got today are on a par with the results the Conservatives were getting in 1998-2002. Any improvement is nice, but it comes from a very low base, and really doesn't point to significant gains in the future.


  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,029
    maaarsh said:

    With 40 results to come, Rob's sheet's changes tallies still a mile off reconciling. *confused*.

    My +/- figures include the effect of boundary changes, so take them with a pinch of salt. The composition numbers should be fairly accurate though.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    It is going to be one hell of a spinathon on here for the next few days.

    My own tuppence worth is that anyone spinning anything is talking bollocks. We are in completely uncharted territory. It's been a slap in the face for the same old same old. And FPTP must die.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    carl said:

    A perfect storm is brewing for the Blue Team.

    As you observed earlier 'bless his little cotton socks'.

    Today we find out which of the 3 traditional parties do not draw lessons from these elections....they will be the 'stupid party'....

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    RobD said:

    Just northamptonshire to go now!

    Last two Kent seats now in. Both Kipper in Herne Bay.

    Farage would be perfectly suited to the parliamentary constituency.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    My ward - LDs lost to Labour by 95 votes. 900 odd apiece.

    350+ voted Con and 200 voted Green.

    All literature was focussed on who was the most Green/Lefty and the Con rump was written off - seems to have been a mistake by the Yellers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Mr. Observer, I disagree with you on FPTP. It is the best system.

    We are in uncharted waters. Save UKIP, all parties have problems.
  • <

    Last two Kent seats now in. Both Kipper in Herne Bay.

    Farage would be perfectly suited to the parliamentary constituency.


    Yes he would!

    Especially as Roger Gale is quite likely to stand down at the next GE

  • dragontreedragontree Posts: 27
    Loughborough wards
    labour 10,164 votes
    conservative 8,697

    all labour footsoldiers were asked to work in nottinghamshire and not campaign in loughborough or leics nw last weekend and last few days.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    <

    Last two Kent seats now in. Both Kipper in Herne Bay.

    Farage would be perfectly suited to the parliamentary constituency.


    Yes he would!

    Especially as Roger Gale is quite likely to stand down at the next GE

    He would also have Alan Bone close by to bankroll him.

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @TCPoliticalBetting

    'BBC losses showing a more even % loss rate after 2,172 results. C -320 -22.9%, LD -106 -23.9%. LAB at +260, well short of R&T expectation.'

    Hadn't realized it was so poor for Labour,explains why Tim has gone silent.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    et voila!

    De haut en bas:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukip-wins-hearts-not-minds-8603066.html

    Stupid voters....

    Glad to see its not just the right cleaving to their delusions.....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Mr. Observer, I disagree with you on FPTP. It is the best system.

    We are in uncharted waters. Save UKIP, all parties have problems.

    A Labour majority on 29% of the vote!!??

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Candidates and agents called by RO in Doncaster...they should have finally finished second prefs count
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Save UKIP, all parties have problems."

    Actually, I think UKIP might find they have a few problems as well. This result reminds me a little bit of the SNP's unexpected breakthrough in the 1968 local elections, when many of their candidates were 'paper' candidates who just weren't ready or suited for office. Bad publicity swiftly followed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    F1: Q&A with Gary Anderson, BBC's technical chap:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22387361

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    "Save UKIP, all parties have problems."

    Actually, I think UKIP might find they have a few problems as well. This result reminds me a little bit of the SNP's unexpected breakthrough in the 1968 local elections, when many of their candidates were 'paper' candidates who just weren't ready or suited for office. Bad publicity swiftly followed.

    Now where's the 'Like' or 'Agree' button when you need it?

    ...oh yes.....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    et voila!

    De haut en bas:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukip-wins-hearts-not-minds-8603066.html

    Stupid voters....

    Glad to see its not just the right cleaving to their delusions.....

    Another article by a lefty saying what the Cons should or shouldn't do - but offers nothing for Labour than "hold fast comrades and we will win". Which is perfect frankly.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Mr. Observer, a few points in response:
    Labour have never won a majority with 29% of the vote
    People don't vote for parties. They vote for individuals
    A majority government is better for strong government and accountability to the electorate

    Mr. Kelly, that's a good point (actually, I made it myself the other day but forgot about it). They'll have tons of councillors and if vetting's as poor as reported they might have some difficult stories surfacing.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750

    "Save UKIP, all parties have problems."

    Actually, I think UKIP might find they have a few problems as well. This result reminds me a little bit of the SNP's unexpected breakthrough in the 1968 local elections, when many of their candidates were 'paper' candidates who just weren't ready or suited for office. Bad publicity swiftly followed.

    Yep. This is UKIP's "moment". They've got to capitalise or they could easily slide back under the rock from whence they came.

    That said, you'd clearly rather be in Nigel Farage's shoes tonight than David Cameron's.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    @James

    Speaking of paper candidates, a LD activists coming back from Hampshire count posted that a UKIP candidate didn't ask for a recount in tight division because he didn't want to be elected.....
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Hilarious how Cameron wont even say the word "ukip"

    What a twat
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    R4 Curtice

    Cons: in line with expectations...its tough

    LibDems: Done ok, but only because they were facing Cons - seats results 'flatter to deceive'

    Lab: Disappointing - difficult to argue made progress vs last local elections.

    UKIP: 'Spectacular' - clearly well ahead of LibDems and only a bit behind Cons - have we seen a change to 4 party politics in England? Or do they do a 'Greens'?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Are there any councils where UKIP councillors are likely to form a coalition with the leading party?

    And if so, and there are alternatives, what will Conservative policy be. Bring them in or isolate them?

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Mr. Tokyo, thanks for posting that fascinating map. I knew the area around The Wash was previously swampy, but I was unaware of the Yorkshire swampiness.

    It's also mildly amusing that when considering 21st century politics we're looking at the impact of a 9th century division.

    Not really, we're looking at a correlation, and making wild guesses at causation.
  • dragontreedragontree Posts: 27
    Sean_F said:

    carl said:

    Labour winning in target marginals.

    UKIP splitting the Tory vote.

    Lib Dems holding their own against the Tories.

    A perfect storm is brewing for the Blue Team.

    Labour achieved a mighty 3% swing in Stevenage, compared to 2009. The results Labour got today are on a par with the results the Conservatives were getting in 1998-2002. Any improvement is nice, but it comes from a very low base, and really doesn't point to significant gains in the future.


    Sean - trust me when I say this - there is a land/people north of stevenage. They call this land northern england.

    In northern england there are tory mps. Based on results the tories would lose the following seats

    Loughborough
    Leicestershire nw
    north warwickshire
    sherwood
    broxtowe
    lancaster/fleetwood
    morecambe/lunesdale
    weaver vale
    carlisle
    burnley
    nuneaton
    erewash
    blackpool north
    cannock cahse
    warwick north/leamington
    high peak
    rossendale/darwin
    lincoln
    south ribble
    stafford
    south derbyshire




  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013
    Overall, I think the Conservatives will be somewhat relieved. Losing 320+ seats and control of 10 councils is not nice, of course, but it was from the massively high 2009 starting point when Labour was all but wiped out in these areas, and it could have been a lot worse. What's more, losing voters to UKIP is not as bad as losing voters to Labour, given the likelihood of getting a good proportion of them back in a GE.

    However, I wouldn't expect the stuff about 'respecting what the voters said' to mean quite what people expect. The risk from UKIP's point of view will be that the ranks of rookie UKIP councillors do indeed include a fair smattering of fruitcakes and loons, or at least of the naive and inexperienced. Their opponents in the other three parties are unlikely to give them a free ride, whatever they say about respecting the people who voted UKIP, and the press will of course be looking for stories. Don't expect a sudden political ceasefire - the manoeuvering will involve attempting to prise UKIP voters away from the party, and to do that you use wedge issues.

    Edit: Good Lord, I see I've just made much the same point as JamesKelly. This must be a first!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    "Save UKIP, all parties have problems."

    Actually, I think UKIP might find they have a few problems as well. This result reminds me a little bit of the SNP's unexpected breakthrough in the 1968 local elections, when many of their candidates were 'paper' candidates who just weren't ready or suited for office. Bad publicity swiftly followed.

    A good point, James.

    These new UKIP councillors will need to keep their right arms in check and stay out of lap-dancing clubs.

    There will be a Sun reporter tracking their every move.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The outcome of today is that the Cons will be cuddling up to Ukip and the Left will be calling them worse names than clowns and fruitcakes.

    Interesting times - next years Euro's coincide with locals in more traditional Labour areas - could be more fun for the Kippers.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Rumours from Doncaster it is that Labour may have just won...

    if another recount is not asked....
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2013
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    carl said:

    "Save UKIP, all parties have problems."

    Actually, I think UKIP might find they have a few problems as well. This result reminds me a little bit of the SNP's unexpected breakthrough in the 1968 local elections, when many of their candidates were 'paper' candidates who just weren't ready or suited for office. Bad publicity swiftly followed.

    Yep. This is UKIP's "moment". They've got to capitalise or they could easily slide back under the rock from whence they came.

    That said, you'd clearly rather be in Nigel Farage's shoes tonight than David Cameron's.
    You mean you would rather be wandering around Westminster looking for a photographer than Prime Minister?

    What a load of carolingian bollocks!

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,512

    Sean_F said:

    carl said:

    Labour winning in target marginals.

    UKIP splitting the Tory vote.

    Lib Dems holding their own against the Tories.

    A perfect storm is brewing for the Blue Team.

    Labour achieved a mighty 3% swing in Stevenage, compared to 2009. The results Labour got today are on a par with the results the Conservatives were getting in 1998-2002. Any improvement is nice, but it comes from a very low base, and really doesn't point to significant gains in the future.


    Sean - trust me when I say this - there is a land/people north of stevenage. They call this land northern england.

    In northern england there are tory mps. Based on results the tories would lose the following seats

    Loughborough
    Leicestershire nw
    north warwickshire
    sherwood
    broxtowe
    lancaster/fleetwood
    morecambe/lunesdale
    weaver vale
    carlisle
    burnley
    nuneaton
    erewash
    blackpool north
    cannock cahse
    warwick north/leamington
    high peak
    rossendale/darwin
    lincoln
    south ribble
    stafford
    south derbyshire




    Trust me when I say that it's not unheard of for opposition parties to achieve modest leads in marginal seats in mid-term elections, only to find that fall short in the subsequent general election. Labour's net gain in this round of elections was at the bottom end of expectations.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Labour won Doncaster mayor

    Look forward to seeing the transfer patterns! (Though there was a rump of TUSC / Save our Services / LD candidates that you would expect to break to Labour.)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Gawain Towler @GawainTowler
    More than 1,000,000 votes cast for @UKIP
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,003

    Labour won Doncaster mayor

    So once again we can only infer that the tories really don't like or get this second go thing. If their votes had transferred to the independent in sizeable numbers it would have been a cakewalk.

    Tories may be daft but they are consistent to their principles. Is that a good thing?

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2013
    Ros Jones (Lab) 25364 votes
    Peter Davies 24725

    So Jones +3,368
    Davies +3,319
    11,330 not transfered


  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Are you sure about Stafford?

    The constituency includes a lot of safe Tory areas from South Staffs District.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited May 2013
    Can some kind person provide me with a link to the R&T predictions (or just tell me what they were). I'm too lazy weary to Google.

    Hell of a day, though, huh.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Mr. Observer, a few points in response:
    Labour have never won a majority with 29% of the vote
    People don't vote for parties. They vote for individuals
    A majority government is better for strong government and accountability to the electorate

    Mr. Kelly, that's a good point (actually, I made it myself the other day but forgot about it). They'll have tons of councillors and if vetting's as poor as reported they might have some difficult stories surfacing.

    People vote for parties Mr Dancer, de jure it may be individuals with party endorsement, but in practice the second column is many orders of magnitude more important than the first.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,109
    Plato said:

    Gawain Towler @GawainTowler
    More than 1,000,000 votes cast for @UKIP

    Better off out?
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    @DavidL/Neil

    There were 2,8k Tories and 4,5k EngDem

    who didn't transfer? The incumbent was elected as EngDem in 2009 before leaving them. UKIP didn't run to give him a clear run this year.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Most of the English Democrats were probably too thick to cast a second preference.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Doncaster Labour in its full glory (minus the immigrant Ed)

    https://twitter.com/BBCJamesVincent/status/330357314345373697/photo/1
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    There were probably about 5 million votes cast with UKIP getting a quarter of them.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    SeanT said:

    Plato said:

    Gawain Towler @GawainTowler
    More than 1,000,000 votes cast for @UKIP

    That's one million clowns, cranks, closet racists, fruitcakes, gadflies and loonies.

    Well done, Ken & Dave.
    It was a very stupid thing to say all that time ago - to not just apologise and get over it months ago by Cameron was even more idiotic. I've never been very keen on Ken for all his bonhomie - but his remarks were immensely arrogant, insulting and politically inept.

    I still remember EdM and Gordon calling me a Flat Earther and Anti-Science for not buying AGW - that was over 3yrs ago -insulting voters on a personal level is very dangerous and it sticks.

    I didn't vote yesterday - I can't recall the last time I didn't. Frankly, I'm delighted the Kippers did so well - I'd never vote for them but they're shaking up the smuggery of the Westminster Class.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited May 2013
    "Presumably, James, as a Nat, you must be quite pleased at UKIP's performance?"

    No, I was hoping they wouldn't do as well as this. It seems to me that the UKIP surge is disguising Labour's poor position - Labour might well have been outpolled by the Tories in these elections (in the projected figures) had UKIP not been around.

    The projected national vote shares have "Tory victory in 2015" written all over them, but the challenge for the Yes campaign will be to get that message across. UKIP is complicating matters, but hopefully not too much.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,109
    Plato said:

    SeanT said:

    Plato said:

    Gawain Towler @GawainTowler
    More than 1,000,000 votes cast for @UKIP

    That's one million clowns, cranks, closet racists, fruitcakes, gadflies and loonies.

    Well done, Ken & Dave.
    It was a very stupid thing to say all that time ago - to not just apologise and get over it months ago by Cameron was even more idiotic. I've never been very keen on Ken for all his bonhomie - but his remarks were immensely arrogant, insulting and politically inept.

    I still remember EdM and Gordon calling me a Flat Earther and Anti-Science for not buying AGW - that was over 3yrs ago -insulting voters on a personal level is very dangerous and it sticks.

    I didn't vote yesterday - I can't recall the last time I didn't. Frankly, I'm delighted the Kippers did so well - I'd never vote for them but they're shaking up the smuggery of the Westminster Class.
    Sunil means "blue" - yet I'm toying with the idea of voting UKIP at least at the Euro Election next year.

    There, I said it!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    SeanT said:

    Plato said:

    Gawain Towler @GawainTowler
    More than 1,000,000 votes cast for @UKIP

    That's one million clowns, cranks, closet racists, fruitcakes, gadflies and loonies.

    Well done, Ken & Dave.
    It was a very stupid thing to say all that time ago - to not just apologise and get over it months ago by Cameron was even more idiotic. I've never been very keen on Ken for all his bonhomie - but his remarks were immensely arrogant, insulting and politically inept.

    I still remember EdM and Gordon calling me a Flat Earther and Anti-Science for not buying AGW - that was over 3yrs ago -insulting voters on a personal level is very dangerous and it sticks.

    I didn't vote yesterday - I can't recall the last time I didn't. Frankly, I'm delighted the Kippers did so well - I'd never vote for them but they're shaking up the smuggery of the Westminster Class.
    Sunil means "blue" - yet I'm toying with the idea of voting UKIP at least at the Euro Election next year.

    There, I said it!
    My MEP is Dan Hannan. I'll vote Tory in the Euros because of him as a personal vote.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited May 2013
    Anorak said:
    And one for the Tories too:


    Tories not sufficiently unhinged, concedes Cameron

    In response to the UKIP Surge, the prime minister insisted he had ‘got the message’ and would now walk around with a combat knife clenched in his foaming jaws.

    Mr Cameron added: “Most UKIP voters used to support the Conservatives. Or, perhaps, one of the other right wing parties… Anyway.

    “We used to welcome candidates who would strip to the waist and photograph themselves in front of a Union Jack. Or use an incredibly dangerous dog as their Facebook photo.

    “In our pursuit of the middle ground we decided that these people were strange and frightening and way, way too angry about an enormous number of things.

    “That was wrong.”



  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Although the Conservatives have suffered significant losses, they do still have more councillors than the other three parties combined. BBC running total (32/34) says that Labour have gained 2 councils, which must be below expectations.
  • Well Chris Grayling has just been sorted out by Farage.....!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Amongst all this election talk - this is divertingly amusing - the pix really is spot on.

    "In London we have the Gherkin and the Cheesegrater, so-called for the skyscrapers' physical resemblance to their namesakes. So one must wonder what the people of China will begin to call the headquarters of the state newspaper, the People's Daily, that recently popped up in Beijing.

    With its imposing oblong structure and rounded conical top, the tower has drawn more than a few comparisons with a certain part of the male anatomy. Criticism of the ongoing construction project has forced moderators on Sina Weibo - China's answer to Twitter - to censor those discussing the unique piece of architecture.

    However, some comments have managed to sneak through the vetting process, allowing users to poke fun at the recent erection. "Of course the national mouthpiece should be imposing," said one user.

    "It seems the People's Daily is going to rise up, there's hope for the Chinese dream," said another, referencing a Communist Party slogan. China's obscure state architecture has attracted attention before, with the China Central Television headquarters being nicknamed The Big Underpants... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/internet-critics-point-out-the-phallic-nature-of-chinas-peoples-daily-newspaper-new-headquarters-8603256.html
  • And what's with changing the commenting logins all the time
This discussion has been closed.