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Can there be anything more symbolic than Monday’s Indy front page? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited November 2023 in General
imageCan there be anything more symbolic than Monday’s Indy front page? – politicalbetting.com

For those of my generation the news that the news that the boss of Saatchi & Saatchi has turned on the Tores is a big deal. This was the agency that played a huge part in the Maggie Thatcher election successes of the 1980s and for the boss to come out now and back Starmer is the perfect symbol of where Tory politics is now.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    edited November 2023
    First! (Edit- I mean second)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894

    Not sure about 1979 being "a landslide".

    It was a fairly comfortable win. Not a landslide.

    Saatchi and Saatchi backing Starmer now is just jumping on the bandwagon as the mood is for change after 13 years of Tory rule.

    In 1979 however they played a key role in honing Thatcher's message that the economy wasn't working under Labour and in making her presentable and enabling her to win after just 5 years of Labour rule an election Callaghan was originally expected to see her off comfortably in
  • Saatchi knows which side their bread's buttered. Their hearts and minds will follow.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,998
    Eighth, or something.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Is Cruella the Airbnb guest from Hell?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited November 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrKieranBradley
    NEW: PM @RishiSunak has ordered a major tightening up of protest laws, after a day of violence in central London on Saturday. Reports
    @TheSun

    Sunak has drawn up five areas where legal loopholes need to be closed on policing.

    The clampdown would see:

    -New laws drawn up to stop protesters climbing on statues, scaffolding and bus stops during protests.

    -The law around fireworks, smoke bombs and flares tightened up.

    -The threshold at which cops can ban marches and protests due to safety concerns lowered.

    -The law on glorifying terrorists like Hamas is also to be tightened as cops say it is too vague to enforce currently.

    I thought we had a round of this last year where supposedly the plod can shut down a protest if they are getting a bit noisy (or at least that was what the Guardian was spinning). If the plod aren't going to use that power when people are shouting a terrorist slogan and carrying a banner calling for global interfada, they aren't going to do anything different with these laws.

    As people have stated the police approach now is not to kettle people, rather just film and investigate later. Surely damaging statues, bus stops etc are already vandalism, and again we have seen the courts really don't do much as the eco-fascists seem to have to get to strike 100 before they get any real punishment (and the number of cases where they got nothing e.g. the fire engine spraying paint everywhere).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    edited November 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrKieranBradley
    NEW: PM @RishiSunak has ordered a major tightening up of protest laws, after a day of violence in central London on Saturday. Reports
    @TheSun

    Sunak has drawn up five areas where legal loopholes need to be closed on policing.

    The clampdown would see:

    -New laws drawn up to stop protesters climbing on statues, scaffolding and bus stops during protests.

    -The law around fireworks, smoke bombs and flares tightened up.

    -The threshold at which cops can ban marches and protests due to safety concerns lowered.

    -The law on glorifying terrorists like Hamas is also to be tightened as cops say it is too vague to enforce currently.

    I thought we had a round of this last year where supposedly the plod can shut down a protest if they are getting a bit noisy (or at least that was what the Guardian was spinning). If the plod aren't going to use that power when people are shouting a terrorist slogan and carrying a banner calling for global interfada, they aren't going to do anything different with these laws.
    There was genuine uncertainty at the time of the legislation on how it might be interpreted.
    The Met (to their credit and my personal surprise) have been considerably more robust in resisting political calls for bans than they might have been.

    A lowered threshold would have taken away their strongest argument against the Home Secretary this last week.
  • Dear Oh Lord with this piece.

    So Richard Huntingdon is not the boss of Saatchi & Saatchi, he is the Chief Strategy Officer. That puts him around on the second tier of management for that particular agency.

    Secondly, S&S are just one of literally >100 agency groups out there, many of whom also have a CSO. It is not a big deal.

    Thirdly, S&S is now owned by Publicis. Some symbolism but not huge. And not sure how they will react to one of their CSO being on the front page.

    I am. more surprised someone thought having a relatively senior (but will little real wuthority) ad exec expressing pro-Starmer views was front page news
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited November 2023
    Its worth noting Saatchi and Saatchi isn't anything like the same organisation it was 40 years ago. It is part of the massive French organisation, Publicis Groupe.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,839
    They also came up with 'New Labour, New Danger'. Not sure the Tories will be devastated with losing a company whose last notable political success coincided with Rentaghost.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,998

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrKieranBradley
    NEW: PM @RishiSunak has ordered a major tightening up of protest laws, after a day of violence in central London on Saturday. Reports
    @TheSun

    Sunak has drawn up five areas where legal loopholes need to be closed on policing.

    The clampdown would see:

    -New laws drawn up to stop protesters climbing on statues, scaffolding and bus stops during protests.

    -The law around fireworks, smoke bombs and flares tightened up.

    -The threshold at which cops can ban marches and protests due to safety concerns lowered.

    -The law on glorifying terrorists like Hamas is also to be tightened as cops say it is too vague to enforce currently.

    I thought we had a round of this last year where supposedly the plod can shut down a protest if they are getting a bit noisy (or at least that was what the Guardian was spinning). If the plod aren't going to use that power when people are shouting a terrorist slogan and carrying a banner calling for global interfada, they aren't going to do anything different with these laws.

    As people have stated the police approach now is not to kettle people, rather just film and investigate later. Surely damaging statues, bus stops etc are already vandalism, and again we have seen the courts really don't do much as the eco-fascists seem to have to get to strike 100 before they get any real punishment (and the number of cases where they got nothing e.g. the fire engine spraying paint everywhere).
    I think you're mixing up 'defacing the Cenotaph after being fired up by Suella' and 'Sharing a park bench after being ordered not to by a guy holding birthday cake and a suitcase full of booze'.

    One is banned, one is encouraged (though denied). It is left as an excersise to the reader as to which.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited November 2023

    They also came up with 'New Labour, New Danger'. Not sure the Tories will be devastated with losing a company whose last notable political success coincided with Rentaghost.

    On its own it isn't a very interesting story (like the whole of the front page), but obviously its far from the only one.

    Out of interest, how are the Indy still going? They are online only now and their website is horrific. Their offering is significantly inferior to Times or Guardian.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,187
    edited November 2023
    I am just wondering what she has to do to get fired? What line does she need to cross? How bad can she go and still keep her job?

    Because the incredible thing is that Sunak does not seem to appreciate that Braverman staying in place really builds up the tarnish on the Tory brand. Leave this person in place to perform as she has over recent days and she will make Theresa May's "Nasty Party" look like childcare assistants.

    How many votes does Sunak want to haemorrhage?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    Tories clearly don’t understand the meaning of ‘symbolic’ if the comments so far are any evidence.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,954
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrKieranBradley
    NEW: PM @RishiSunak has ordered a major tightening up of protest laws, after a day of violence in central London on Saturday. Reports
    @TheSun

    Sunak has drawn up five areas where legal loopholes need to be closed on policing.

    The clampdown would see:

    -New laws drawn up to stop protesters climbing on statues, scaffolding and bus stops during protests.

    -The law around fireworks, smoke bombs and flares tightened up.

    -The threshold at which cops can ban marches and protests due to safety concerns lowered.

    -The law on glorifying terrorists like Hamas is also to be tightened as cops say it is too vague to enforce currently.

    I thought we had a round of this last year where supposedly the plod can shut down a protest if they are getting a bit noisy (or at least that was what the Guardian was spinning). If the plod aren't going to use that power when people are shouting a terrorist slogan and carrying a banner calling for global interfada, they aren't going to do anything different with these laws.
    There was genuine uncertainty at the time of the legislation on how it might be interpreted.
    The Met (to their credit and my personal surprise) have been considerably more robust in resisting political calls for bans than they might have been.

    A lowered threshold would have taken away their strongest argument against the Home Secretary this last week.
    How would you even ban a march on a topic like Palestine? When you have 100,000s of people turning up, you have no option but to accommodate and negotiate.

    My concern would be for more niche issues where there isn't the political or numerical support so are much more vulnerable to a ban.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited November 2023
    FPT:

    BenPointer - How generous the US welfare system is depends partly on the state and city. But every state has a Medicaid program providing medical care, as do DC and Puerto Rico. (Benefits do vary from state to state.)
    "Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with low income in the United States, providing free health insurance to 85 million low-income and disabled people as of 2022;[3] in 2019, the program paid for half of all U.S. births.[4] As of 2017, the total annual cost of Medicaid was just over $600 billion, of which the federal government contributed $375 billion and states an additional $230 billion.[4] States are not required to participate in the program, although all have since 1982. In general, Medicaid recipients must be U.S. citizens or qualified non-citizens, and may include low-income adults, their children, and people with certain disabilities."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

    So this program for the poor serves more people than the UK's NHS. (I'd be interested to know how the per capita Medicaid spending compares with that of the NHS.)

    The US also subsidizes food for the poor through a program that once called food stamps, but is now the Supplementary Nutrition Assistance Program:
    "SNAP benefits supplied roughly 40 million Americans in 2018, at an expenditure of $57.1 billion.[2][3] Approximately 9.2% of American households obtained SNAP benefits at some point during 2017, with approximately 16.7% of all children living in households with SNAP benefits.[2] Beneficiaries and costs increased sharply with the Great Recession, peaked in 2013 and declined through 2017 as the economy recovered.[2] It is the largest nutrition program of the 15 administered by FNS and is a key component of the social safety net for low-income Americans."

    SNAP is popular now, and has always been. (Though medical experts have begun to worry that it contributes to our obesity problem.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program

    From a quick calculation:

    UK spending on the NHS is £176bn in 2023-24 covering circa 68 million people, £2,588 ($3,164) per person p.a.

    So, that would appear to be several times cheaper per capita than Medicaid which from your figures looks like $7,058 per person p.a. ($600bn covering 85m people).

    Of course, the NHS covers everyone, not just the poor and disabled, so it might be expected to have a healthier client base maybe?

    (If anyone thinks I've made a mistake with any of those figures, please feel free to correct me.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    edited November 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrKieranBradley
    NEW: PM @RishiSunak has ordered a major tightening up of protest laws, after a day of violence in central London on Saturday. Reports
    @TheSun

    Sunak has drawn up five areas where legal loopholes need to be closed on policing.

    The clampdown would see:

    -New laws drawn up to stop protesters climbing on statues, scaffolding and bus stops during protests.

    -The law around fireworks, smoke bombs and flares tightened up.

    -The threshold at which cops can ban marches and protests due to safety concerns lowered.

    -The law on glorifying terrorists like Hamas is also to be tightened as cops say it is too vague to enforce currently.

    I thought we had a round of this last year where supposedly the plod can shut down a protest if they are getting a bit noisy (or at least that was what the Guardian was spinning). If the plod aren't going to use that power when people are shouting a terrorist slogan and carrying a banner calling for global interfada, they aren't going to do anything different with these laws.
    There was genuine uncertainty at the time of the legislation on how it might be interpreted.
    The Met (to their credit and my personal surprise) have been considerably more robust in resisting political calls for bans than they might have been.

    A lowered threshold would have taken away their strongest argument against the Home Secretary this last week.
    How would you even ban a march on a topic like Palestine? When you have 100,000s of people turning up, you have no option but to accommodate and negotiate.

    My concern would be for more niche issues where there isn't the political or numerical support so are much more vulnerable to a ban.
    Ask Suella.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited November 2023
    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,954
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrKieranBradley
    NEW: PM @RishiSunak has ordered a major tightening up of protest laws, after a day of violence in central London on Saturday. Reports
    @TheSun

    Sunak has drawn up five areas where legal loopholes need to be closed on policing.

    The clampdown would see:

    -New laws drawn up to stop protesters climbing on statues, scaffolding and bus stops during protests.

    -The law around fireworks, smoke bombs and flares tightened up.

    -The threshold at which cops can ban marches and protests due to safety concerns lowered.

    -The law on glorifying terrorists like Hamas is also to be tightened as cops say it is too vague to enforce currently.

    I thought we had a round of this last year where supposedly the plod can shut down a protest if they are getting a bit noisy (or at least that was what the Guardian was spinning). If the plod aren't going to use that power when people are shouting a terrorist slogan and carrying a banner calling for global interfada, they aren't going to do anything different with these laws.
    There was genuine uncertainty at the time of the legislation on how it might be interpreted.
    The Met (to their credit and my personal surprise) have been considerably more robust in resisting political calls for bans than they might have been.

    A lowered threshold would have taken away their strongest argument against the Home Secretary this last week.
    How would you even ban a march on a topic like Palestine? When you have 100,000s of people turning up, you have no option but to accommodate and negotiate.

    My concern would be for more niche issues where there isn't the political or numerical support so are much more vulnerable to a ban.
    Ask Suella.
    I'd also like to know at what expected percentage of criminality you'd implement a ban. 1%? That would be 3,000 arrests, charges and convictions for this march.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited November 2023
    I'm sure they still loom large in the minds of political journalists who probably grew up in the period, but a (equivalent) front page headline being about "Thatcher's ad agency" feels about as relevant today as the paper turning on Disraeli would be.

    I mean, I think the Tories are in for a shellacking, but that's still thin gruel for a headline. That's a blog post header at best.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    I think you'll find the Tories have cost themselves those seats and more with their incompetent management of the economy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited November 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited November 2023

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    Agreed. I loathed aspects of the pro-Palestine march on Saturday (and, also, sympathised with other aspects, quite intensely) but hard cases make bad law. We should not rush to new legislation that crimps free speech even further, just because we have seen weird stuff we don't like for a month

    And anyway, the police already have the required powers: they are simply scared of using them, because

    1. they are intimidated by liberal media

    2. they are intimidated by the fear of Muslim violence

    and

    3. they are individually scared they could be filmed and done for racism, and get cancelled

    What the coppers need is a Home Sec to back them, to the hilt. Enforce the laws we already have
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    Policing tone, thought and ideology is pretty difficult and I’m not sure needs anymore legislation than already exists. We have laws against hate speech which already cover what they need to cover (and arguably more).

    Managing the competing needs of free speech and the desire to protect vulnerable people from intimidating rhetoric is difficult. This is just something must be doneism
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    Unfortunately, experience to date suggests that that something will be bad.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited November 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    If the Tories win a general election in 2025 or late 2024 they will be the only party since universal suffrage in 1918 to have won a general election after 14 or more years in power.

    The question is less whether the Tories can be re elected again, which is highly unlikely but more whether they can narrow the gap
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,954
    Leon said:

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    Agreed. I loathed aspects of the pro-Palestine march on Saturday (and, also, sympathised with other aspects, quite intensely) but hard cases make bad law. We should not rush to new legislation that crimps free speech even further, just because we have seen weird stuff we don't like for a month

    And anyway, the police already have the required powers: they are simply scared of using them, because

    1. they are intimidated by liberal media

    2. they are intimidated by the fear of Muslim violence

    and

    3. they are individually scared they could be filmed and done for racism, and get cancelled

    What the coppers need is a Home Sec to back them, to the hilt. Enforce the laws we already have
    I think "lack of numbers" is a far more important reason, though they might fall under your option 2.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    Tommy Five Names would be a more accurate moniker. He has also gone by Andrew McMaster, Paul Harris… and
    Wayne King (yes, I know, I know).

  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited November 2023
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
    Has there been a leadership combo with less vision in recent times? Truss at least had a vision, it wasn't practical, at least not saying well i'm doing it now, regardless of economics, but there was a vision. Corbyn had a vision, a terrifying one, but he at least had a clear vision of what he wanted to achieve....Sunak and Hunt, its like watching people just counting the days to retirement.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
    Has there been a leadership combo with less vision in recent times? Truss at least had a vision, it wasn't practical, at least not saying well i'm doing it now, regardless of economics, but there was a vision. Corbyn had a vision....Sunak and Hunt, its like people just counting the days to retirement.
    Mother (Mary)

    Queen (Elizabeth)

    Visionary (Truss).

    One of the golden greats of British political history, every day of her leadership an unforgettable experience.


    THE TRUSS
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,226
    Leon said:

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    Agreed. I loathed aspects of the pro-Palestine march on Saturday (and, also, sympathised with other aspects, quite intensely) but hard cases make bad law. We should not rush to new legislation that crimps free speech even further, just because we have seen weird stuff we don't like for a month

    And anyway, the police already have the required powers: they are simply scared of using them, because

    1. they are intimidated by liberal media

    2. they are intimidated by the fear of Muslim violence

    and

    3. they are individually scared they could be filmed and done for racism, and get cancelled

    What the coppers need is a Home Sec to back them, to the hilt. Enforce the laws we already have
    I agree with about all of that except the conclusion. What's needed in no small part is the Met nuking from orbit and starting again. Cruella was largely accurate in her assessment of them this week, just very unwise to screech off to the media about it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    The last thing we need is more laws.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,399

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
    Has there been a leadership combo with less vision in recent times? Truss at least had a vision, it wasn't practical, at least not saying well i'm doing it now, regardless of economics, but there was a vision. Corbyn had a vision....Sunak and Hunt, its like people just counting the days to retirement.
    Mother (Mary)

    Queen (Elizabeth)

    Visionary (Truss).

    One of the golden greats of British political history, every day of her leadership an unforgettable experience.


    THE TRUSS
    Have you thought of a career in film trailers?

    I'm thinking...poster? From the back, three quarter profile, her looking sideways and down, some implement in her nearest hand (Sceptre. Let's go with that, looks good). Bisexual lighting, since Orange and Teal is too 2010s

    Tag lines: "The women nobody knew. The PM nobody will forget". "Destiny. Nemesis". "Forget everything you've ever known". "Today is the day everything changes". "Everything you have done in your life has led to this moment".

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,899

    Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is drawing up a report that could recommend ministers update the Terrorism Act to cover the “glorification of terrorist acts” rather than just the groups that commit them.

    He has also proposed an offence of “having a flag that is associated with terrorism generally”. This could be the Shahada black flag, which “looked like the Islamic State flag but is not the Islamic state flag”, he added.

    The review is also likely to look at proposals to lower the threshold at which a protest or march can be banned, such as by taking into account the impact on a community.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/12/suella-braverman-pro-palestinian-marches-cannot-go-on/

    If we are not careful do we not get into situations like the OK hand sign, where it was a meme, then it was kinda of reality for a small number of white nationalists, but then it became witchfinder general stuff of guessing that somebody did it, therefore...

    The reality these kind of laws only catch the most moronic e.g. having a call for Global Interfada banner.

    The ones you have to worry about are the ones who know the rules, they know the line and they know how to signal what they mean. Hence why Nick Griffin was able to avoid trouble, where as Tommy Two Names just walks into again and again.

    Tommy Five Names would be a more accurate moniker. He has also gone by Andrew McMaster, Paul Harris… and
    Wayne King (yes, I know, I know).

    There's no alliteration in Tommy Five...

    Two names works best, as we know him for his assumed stage name and the name the Judge uses when passing sentence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
    Has there been a leadership combo with less vision in recent times? Truss at least had a vision, it wasn't practical, at least not saying well i'm doing it now, regardless of economics, but there was a vision. Corbyn had a vision....Sunak and Hunt, its like people just counting the days to retirement.
    Mother (Mary)

    Queen (Elizabeth)

    Visionary (Truss).

    One of the golden greats of British political history, every day of her leadership an unforgettable experience.


    THE TRUSS
    Are you a Trusstafarian ?
  • TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
    Has there been a leadership combo with less vision in recent times? Truss at least had a vision, it wasn't practical, at least not saying well i'm doing it now, regardless of economics, but there was a vision. Corbyn had a vision....Sunak and Hunt, its like people just counting the days to retirement.
    Mother (Mary)

    Queen (Elizabeth)

    Visionary (Truss).

    One of the golden greats of British political history, every day of her leadership an unforgettable experience.


    THE TRUSS
    In God we Truss!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    All the signals are the Winter "budget" is going be more of the same. Its the most managed decline of managed decline. People short term renting seem to care more about their property than current government do about managing the country.
    There could be one or two interesting surprises, more than you might expect. But I’m still expecting it to be at the non-dry end of squibs.
    Has there been a leadership combo with less vision in recent times? Truss at least had a vision, it wasn't practical, at least not saying well i'm doing it now, regardless of economics, but there was a vision. Corbyn had a vision....Sunak and Hunt, its like people just counting the days to retirement.
    Mother (Mary)

    Queen (Elizabeth)

    Visionary (Truss).

    One of the golden greats of British political history, every day of her leadership an unforgettable experience.


    THE TRUSS
    In God we Truss!
    In Truss we're Trussed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    Most optical illusions I can see through after working out how they work.
    This one I just can't.
    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1723623367045992545
  • Nigelb said:

    Most optical illusions I can see through after working out how they work.
    This one I just can't.
    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1723623367045992545

    One for the philosophers: should an AI vision system see that the tables are identical or fall prey to the same illusion as humans?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    Benpointer - Thanks for the numbers on the NHS versus Medicaid. (There are many faults with our US health care systems, but I don't think we spend too little, totally.)

    I could have added that some elderly are poor, too, so they get covered by both Medicare and Medicaid. (Medicare is much more generous, but doesn't cover everything Medicaid does.)

    (Full disclosure: I am now enrolled in a Medicare "advantage" plan, which gives me additional benefits, such as dental, as long as I stay with the doctors and dentists who accept their coverage.

    They will also pay for me to exercise at clubs under a "Silver Sneakers" plan. I am going to try to get them to help me get to snow so I can do more cross country skiing.

    The plans must be quite profitable, since I have been seeing so many ads from the competing providers in this area, during the "open-enrollment" period that comes near the end of each year.)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    edited November 2023

    Benpointer - Thanks for the numbers on the NHS versus Medicaid. (There are many faults with our US health care systems, but I don't think we spend too little, totally.)

    I could have added that some elderly are poor, too, so they get covered by both Medicare and Medicaid. (Medicare is much more generous, but doesn't cover everything Medicaid does.)

    (Full disclosure: I am now enrolled in a Medicare "advantage" plan, which gives me additional benefits, such as dental, as long as I stay with the doctors and dentists who accept their coverage.

    They will also pay for me to exercise at clubs under a "Silver Sneakers" plan. I am going to try to get them to help me get to snow so I can do more cross country skiing.

    The plans must be quite profitable, since I have been seeing so many ads from the competing providers in this area, during the "open-enrollment" period that comes near the end of each year.)

    It seems like in the United States you spend a lot more on healthcare than anyone else, but paradoxically the outcomes are often worse. Life expectancy, for instance, is lower than some second-tier countries like Panama and Antigua.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    They also came up with 'New Labour, New Danger'. Not sure the Tories will be devastated with losing a company whose last notable political success coincided with Rentaghost.

    On its own it isn't a very interesting story (like the whole of the front page), but obviously its far from the only one.

    Out of interest, how are the Indy still going? They are online only now and their website is horrific. Their offering is significantly inferior to Times or Guardian.
    Don't see the Indy these days. It doesn't like my ad blocker, so it can bugger off.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Andy_JS said:

    Tory strategy: something will turn up between now and January 2025.

    From Thatcherism to Micawberism...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    edited November 2023
    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    I was unaware of his marital status until last week. Bizarre that this still matters.
    ..Scott on Wednesday had just unveiled his girlfriend, after months of teasing her existence. Scott brought the woman, Mindy Noce, onstage for photos after the debate in Miami. He had faced questions throughout his candidacy about being a 58-year-old bachelor, though Scott assured an audience in Iowa in September that he was dating a “lovely Christian girl.”..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    Sources say that Mark Littlewood, the head of the IEA think tank and champion of Trussonomics, is no longer on Liz Truss's resignation hons list

    He does not appear to have passed Holac vetting.

    https://twitter.com/HarryYorke1/status/1723623157863534925
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004
    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    Five Republicans left then:

    Donald Trump
    Ron DeSantis
    Vivek Ramaswarmy
    Nikki Haley
    Chris Christie

    (Plus Doug Burgum and Asa Hutchinson, who theoretically have campaigns still going).

    Can’t see Christie making the next debate either, so we’ll be down to four serious contenders before the primaries even start. Does Trump turn up for the December debate, if it’s only going to be four of them?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Yes, there are many things more symbolic than Monday's Indy front page.

    Next.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    Yes, this:
    Homeless people's tents in central London have been destroyed during a Met Police operation.
    Refuse workers threw the tents into the back of their lorry on Huntley Street, Camden, at about 15:00 GMT on Friday.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67392992
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    An excellent example of how to respond to hate speech.
    https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1723789427137196260
  • Andy_JS said:

    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.

    Shakespeare: Rise of a Genius is a very good three-part docudrama on BBC iPlayer as well.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Nigelb said:

    An excellent example of how to respond to hate speech.
    https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1723789427137196260

    But the problem is that this happened in the first place, in London. Good on the passengers for confronting her; but Jews should not be reliant on there being good people about to challenge the bad.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited November 2023

    Not sure about 1979 being "a landslide".

    It was a fairly comfortable win. Not a landslide.

    This is very true.

    Although she did turn the following two elections into landslides when the doubters, and there were many, were proved wrong.

    1983 144 seat majority
    1987 102 seat majority

    She was helped in 1983 by the fact that Labour lurched to the hard Left, just as I expect the Conservatives to lurch to the hard Right. So she was up against someone repulsive to the centre ground of the British electorate.

    History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Greta's campaign expanding. It's not about the environment, you know.

    https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1723775254147817633
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,740
    How is Braverman wrong?

    London's streets are being polluted by hate.

    Much of it from her.
  • Greta's campaign expanding. It's not about the environment, you know.

    https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1723775254147817633

    If you review that clip, though, you'll see there's a brief moment where a short moment of self-doubt flickers across Greta's face before she resumes her chanting.

    I think deep-down she knows she's getting sucked into the same vortex Owen Jones did.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,240
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    I was unaware of his marital status until last week. Bizarre that this still matters.
    ..Scott on Wednesday had just unveiled his girlfriend, after months of teasing her existence. Scott brought the woman, Mindy Noce, onstage for photos after the debate in Miami. He had faced questions throughout his candidacy about being a 58-year-old bachelor, though Scott assured an audience in Iowa in September that he was dating a “lovely Christian girl.”..
    Mindy Noce sounds like an Officer Crabtree greeting.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004
    No cricket today or tomorrow, so I guess we have to hope for a cabinet reshuffle?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020

    Andy_JS said:

    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.

    Shakespeare: Rise of a Genius is a very good three-part docudrama on BBC iPlayer as well.
    Liked the title of Judy Dench's new book: "Shakespeare: the man who pays the rent."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201

    Nigelb said:

    An excellent example of how to respond to hate speech.
    https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1723789427137196260

    But the problem is that this happened in the first place, in London. Good on the passengers for confronting her; but Jews should not be reliant on there being good people about to challenge the bad.
    Of course.
    But none of us can solve that problem - we can though speak up, like the folk on the bus.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.

    Shakespeare: Rise of a Genius is a very good three-part docudrama on BBC iPlayer as well.
    Liked the title of Judy Dench's new book: "Shakespeare: the man who pays the rent."
    Wasn't he a BTL landlord ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    Sandpit said:

    No cricket today or tomorrow, so I guess we have to hope for a cabinet reshuffle?

    Given your record on the cricket, you've just jinxed any hopes of that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.

    Shakespeare: Rise of a Genius is a very good three-part docudrama on BBC iPlayer as well.
    Liked the title of Judy Dench's new book: "Shakespeare: the man who pays the rent."
    Wasn't he a BTL landlord ?
    Not once his works went out of copyright.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.

    Shakespeare: Rise of a Genius is a very good three-part docudrama on BBC iPlayer as well.
    Liked the title of Judy Dench's new book: "Shakespeare: the man who pays the rent."
    Wasn't he a BTL landlord ?
    Not once his works went out of copyright.
    They never were copyright, as it didn't exist at the time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just watched the most interesting TV documentary about Bernard Levin on BBC4.

    Shakespeare: Rise of a Genius is a very good three-part docudrama on BBC iPlayer as well.
    Liked the title of Judy Dench's new book: "Shakespeare: the man who pays the rent."
    Wasn't he a BTL landlord ?
    Not once his works went out of copyright.
    They never were copyright, as it didn't exist at the time.
    A hit, a hit, a palpable hit.

    Score one for the pedants.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,150
    Nigelb said:

    Tories clearly don’t understand the meaning of ‘symbolic’ if the comments so far are any evidence.

    Which is odd, if you consider most of their recent policy initiatives…
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Nigelb said:

    Tories clearly don’t understand the meaning of ‘symbolic’ if the comments so far are any evidence.

    Anti-Tories evidently cannot see that 'symbolic' was used in conjunction with other words, which conveyed a certain question. The answer to which was undoubtedly 'yes'. ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590
    DavidL said:

    Yes, there are many things more symbolic than Monday's Indy front page.

    Next.

    Maurice Saatchi left the successor firm M&C Saatchi in 2019, the brothers having departed the earlier firm of Saatchi & Saatchi as long ago as 1995.
    Of more interest is Maurice Saatchi's own list of failures in analysing how he lost an election:

    I DID NOT convince the Party that if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
    I DID NOT dispel the illusion of research, which said that, as immigration was the number one issue in deciding how people vote, it should be the number one topic.
    I DID NOT prevent economics, the Conservatives' former ace of trumps, becoming a 'second order issue.'
    I DID NOT avoid the underestimation of public intelligence, as in the policy description 'Lower Taxes' when in fact taxes would be higher.

    I found it startling how may of these mistakes are being repeated in 2023.
    For the Tory party to have any chance the economy needs to be about the 20th item on the list of priorities for voters.

    Shall we just say that binning HS2 hasn't exactly played well anywhere except in a few niche areas - and even then Chesham and Amersham is still subject to HS2 building work so may remain a Lib Dem seat.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,316

    Greta's campaign expanding. It's not about the environment, you know.

    https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1723775254147817633

    If you review that clip, though, you'll see there's a brief moment where a short moment of self-doubt flickers across Greta's face before she resumes her chanting.

    I think deep-down she knows she's getting sucked into the same vortex Owen Jones did.
    CR your response is one of the clearest examples of 'seeing what you want to see' I've read in a while. I've reviewed the clip - I can't see any moment of self-doubt. I can see a shaken Thunberg collect herself briefly before realising all the cameras are on her and return to 'performing'.

    To be fair, I agree with the central point that chanting in that way at a climate justice rally is a dodgy thing to do, but the worst thing in the clip in my view is the powerlessness she clearly felt as the man took the microphone and she realised she wasn't strong enough to get it back without assistance.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,128

    FPT:

    BenPointer - How generous the US welfare system is depends partly on the state and city. But every state has a Medicaid program providing medical care, as do DC and Puerto Rico. (Benefits do vary from state to state.)
    "Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with low income in the United States, providing free health insurance to 85 million low-income and disabled people as of 2022;[3] in 2019, the program paid for half of all U.S. births.[4] As of 2017, the total annual cost of Medicaid was just over $600 billion, of which the federal government contributed $375 billion and states an additional $230 billion.[4] States are not required to participate in the program, although all have since 1982. In general, Medicaid recipients must be U.S. citizens or qualified non-citizens, and may include low-income adults, their children, and people with certain disabilities."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

    So this program for the poor serves more people than the UK's NHS. (I'd be interested to know how the per capita Medicaid spending compares with that of the NHS.)

    The US also subsidizes food for the poor through a program that once called food stamps, but is now the Supplementary Nutrition Assistance Program:
    "SNAP benefits supplied roughly 40 million Americans in 2018, at an expenditure of $57.1 billion.[2][3] Approximately 9.2% of American households obtained SNAP benefits at some point during 2017, with approximately 16.7% of all children living in households with SNAP benefits.[2] Beneficiaries and costs increased sharply with the Great Recession, peaked in 2013 and declined through 2017 as the economy recovered.[2] It is the largest nutrition program of the 15 administered by FNS and is a key component of the social safety net for low-income Americans."

    SNAP is popular now, and has always been. (Though medical experts have begun to worry that it contributes to our obesity problem.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program

    From a quick calculation:

    UK spending on the NHS is £176bn in 2023-24 covering circa 68 million people, £2,588 ($3,164) per person p.a.

    So, that would appear to be several times cheaper per capita than Medicaid which from your figures looks like $7,058 per person p.a. ($600bn covering 85m people).

    Of course, the NHS covers everyone, not just the poor and disabled, so it might be expected to have a healthier client base maybe?

    (If anyone thinks I've made a mistake with any of those figures, please feel free to correct me.)
    Medicaid also requires co-payment for prescriptions in many states, and often far more than even a private prescription in the UK.

    The NHS is pretty cheap, but also pretty awful at the moment. Central management by the DoH just isn't working.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 701
    I am intrigued by the Airbnb story. The last time I read anything by Anne Atkinson she was moaning that she and her clergyman husband couldn't afford to buy a house of their own. So how come she's now renting out an Airbnb?
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 701
    Sorry. Atkins. Not Atkinson.
  • The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Sandpit said:

    No cricket today or tomorrow, so I guess we have to hope for a cabinet reshuffle?

    What time is that scheduled to start play?
  • Is Humza Yousaf a pound shop Boris Johnson?

    Humza Yousaf and his deputy are under pressure to refer themselves to the independent adviser for the ministerial code over suggestions they misled parliament.

    The first minister and Shona Robison have been criticised after the Scottish government published a timeline of its dealings with the UK Covid-19 Inquiry and when it was asked to divulge WhatsApp messages.

    The timeline showed that requests for messages had been made by the inquiry in February, as opposed to September as previously stated.

    Last week the Scottish government handed over 14,000 messages to the inquiry, including unredacted correspondence from the first minister.

    The timeline was laid out after the inquiry “asked us to set out in more detail the full timetable of requests for information of the Scottish government”, Robison said.

    Both Yousaf and Robison have been accused by opposition leaders of misleading parliament. If they are found to have intentionally done so, they would be “expected to offer their resignation”, according to the ministerial code.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/humza-yousaf-and-shona-robison-accused-of-misleading-parliament-sknrvncs9
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    Imagine ignoring a terrorist attack by a state actor that killed well over a thousand citizens, and kidnapped hundreds more.

    But they're Israeli, so they don't count on the Far Left.
  • Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
  • The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    They're right.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,128

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    The social observation of songs by The Specials such as "Friday Night, Saturday Morning" "Too Much Too Young" or "Nite Club" is certainly worthy of study but 40 years out of date for modern teenagers. A bit like if I had been forced to study Frank Sinatra at school.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    It’s difficult, nay impossible, to find anything positive to say about the combatants in Gaza.

    In parish news, any sightings of Big G?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Nudging the UK record for wind power generation this morning.


  • Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    It’s difficult, nay impossible, to find anything positive to say about the combatants in Gaza.

    In parish news, any sightings of Big G?
    Great question. We all hope you are both well @Big_G_NorthWales
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    You prove my point that the incubators are being used as human shields so killibg the babies in them is OK.

    Pathetic mate
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    They're right.
    In their aims, but whether their prescriptions would achieve anything is a matter of conjecture.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    You prove my point that the incubators are being used as human shields so killibg the babies in them is OK.

    Pathetic mate
    So what's your answer? How would you have Israel deal with Hamas?
  • Nigelb said:

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    They're right.
    In their aims, but whether their prescriptions would achieve anything is a matter of conjecture.
    I'd make every child watch Trainspotting.

    If there was one film that put me off trying drugs it was Trainspotting.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    Imagine ignoring a terrorist attack by a state actor that killed well over a thousand citizens, and kidnapped hundreds more.

    But they're Israeli, so they don't count on the Far Left.
    Not aware of anyone on the far left who haven't condemned the terrorism of Hamas.

    Babies dead 40 vs 5000 speaks for itself for right minded people far right people don't care about the many only the few
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    Did they ?
    Much of the underground infrastructure was built by Israel when the expanded the hospital during the last occupation.
    Which is why they know it's there.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital

    The choice to use it as a military base is Hamas's responsibility, of course.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,201

    Nigelb said:

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    They're right.
    In their aims, but whether their prescriptions would achieve anything is a matter of conjecture.
    I'd make every child watch Trainspotting.

    If there was one film that put me off trying drugs it was Trainspotting.
    There's an argument for expanding cultural education.
    It's one of the reasons for the massive commercial success of K-pop.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/12/k-pop-reggaeton-english-language-music-
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    Imagine ignoring a terrorist attack by a state actor that killed well over a thousand citizens, and kidnapped hundreds more.

    But they're Israeli, so they don't count on the Far Left.
    Not aware of anyone on the far left who haven't condemned the terrorism of Hamas.

    Babies dead 40 vs 5000 speaks for itself for right minded people far right people don't care about the many only the few
    Has (to pick one example) Chris Williamson, in between calling for Israel not to exist?

    https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/police-investigating-israel-tweet-former-8843171
This discussion has been closed.