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Can there be anything more symbolic than Monday’s Indy front page? – politicalbetting.com

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  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Nigelb said:

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    Did they ?
    Much of the underground infrastructure was built by Israel when the expanded the hospital during the last occupation.
    Which is why they know it's there.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital

    The choice to use it as a military base is Hamas's responsibility, of course.
    Much of it was made by Israel, as part of an expansion of the hospital. Not as a military base. The implications are that Hamas turned it into military infrastructure, and expanded it.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Nigelb said:

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    Did they ?
    Much of the underground infrastructure was built by Israel when the expanded the hospital during the last occupation.
    Which is why they know it's there.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital

    The choice to use it as a military base is Hamas's responsibility, of course.
    When we discuss the Hamas tunnels, I'm reminded of the Taliban mountain compound that never was:

    https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/tora-bora-tunnel-kingdom-wasnt-lessons-fake-news

    It is obvious to anyone watching the conflict that not every target Israel is bombing can possibly be somewhere Hamas is stationed, unless their definition of Hamas affiliated is "someone who knows someone in Hamas walked past here once". They carpet bombed the entire north of Gaza. Not only that, but they have targeted multiple hospitals, UN sites and journalists.

    https://rsf.org/en/israeli-politicians-call-journalists-gaza-be-killed#:~:text=Ever since the start of,the course of their work.

    It got to a point where, to justify their illegal killing of journalists, politicians made up that journalists knew about the October 7th attacks ahead of time. Whereas the view of settler leaders, and the view of those in government who support them, are not based in the October 7th attacks and are based in their political desire to control all the land of Palestine and Israel, with no Arab Palestinians in it:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers
  • MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    It is not the job of the BoE to protect the public from the government's mistakes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348

    MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    It is not the job of the BoE to protect the public from the government's mistakes.
    Nor is it their job to make avoidable mistakes. The B o E seems to view economic growth and wage rises as bad things.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    Did they ?
    Much of the underground infrastructure was built by Israel when the expanded the hospital during the last occupation.
    Which is why they know it's there.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital

    The choice to use it as a military base is Hamas's responsibility, of course.
    When we discuss the Hamas tunnels, I'm reminded of the Taliban mountain compound that never was:

    https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/tora-bora-tunnel-kingdom-wasnt-lessons-fake-news

    It is obvious to anyone watching the conflict that not every target Israel is bombing can possibly be somewhere Hamas is stationed, unless their definition of Hamas affiliated is "someone who knows someone in Hamas walked past here once". They carpet bombed the entire north of Gaza. Not only that, but they have targeted multiple hospitals, UN sites and journalists.

    https://rsf.org/en/israeli-politicians-call-journalists-gaza-be-killed#:~:text=Ever since the start of,the course of their work.

    It got to a point where, to justify their illegal killing of journalists, politicians made up that journalists knew about the October 7th attacks ahead of time. Whereas the view of settler leaders, and the view of those in government who support them, are not based in the October 7th attacks and are based in their political desire to control all the land of Palestine and Israel, with no Arab Palestinians in it:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers
    So according to PB posters, the tunnels either exist, don't exist, or have always existed.

    They are truly Schrödinger's Tunnels...
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    Five Republicans left then:

    Donald Trump
    Ron DeSantis
    Vivek Ramaswarmy
    Nikki Haley
    Chris Christie

    (Plus Doug Burgum and Asa Hutchinson, who theoretically have campaigns still going).

    Can’t see Christie making the next debate either, so we’ll be down to four serious contenders before the primaries even start. Does Trump turn up for the December debate, if it’s only going to be four of them?
    Of course not, the debate is the race for second and he has already won.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited November 2023
    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Foxy said:

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    The social observation of songs by The Specials such as "Friday Night, Saturday Morning" "Too Much Too Young" or "Nite Club" is certainly worthy of study but 40 years out of date for modern teenagers. A bit like if I had been forced to study Frank Sinatra at school.
    Trainspotting was released a 1/4 of century ago. For my children that puts it in History category.

    I like the idea that both non-uniforms *and* uniforms are classist. Not sure the solution is going to get past a safe guarding review, though.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited November 2023

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    Imagine being on the same side as a group of people who, given the opportunity, would have killed you and your family while you were on holiday just because of who you were, not what you'd done.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    They're right.
    They aren’t right about social mobility. The fact that the typical Briton has moved up from being a farm labourer, servant, chimney sweep, coal miner to being a home-owning office worker, over the past two centuries, is an unalloyed blessing.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    It is not the job of the BoE to protect the public from the government's mistakes.
    Its job is to not make its own mistakes; the BoE had a particular task of keeping inflation at 2% or thereabouts. They failed abysmally in this. If they were to make up for this, prices need to be stable or falling for several years.

    It always was obvious that keeping interest rates at practically zero for years would have the effect of stoking asset values and debasing the currency. The BoE, parliament and government were in total denial of this for years, and it has had a massive effect both on younger people (property prices etc), and the older people too (artificially low returns on deposits).

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Hamas claim to have built 300 miles of tunnels under Gaza. In 141 square miles of territory.

    https://www.npr.org/2023/11/02/1210087629/the-hamas-tunnels-a-wildcard-in-the-gaza-fighting
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Ding, dong, the witch is dead...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    edited November 2023

    FPT:

    BenPointer - How generous the US welfare system is depends partly on the state and city. But every state has a Medicaid program providing medical care, as do DC and Puerto Rico. (Benefits do vary from state to state.)
    "Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with low income in the United States, providing free health insurance to 85 million low-income and disabled people as of 2022;[3] in 2019, the program paid for half of all U.S. births.[4] As of 2017, the total annual cost of Medicaid was just over $600 billion, of which the federal government contributed $375 billion and states an additional $230 billion.[4] States are not required to participate in the program, although all have since 1982. In general, Medicaid recipients must be U.S. citizens or qualified non-citizens, and may include low-income adults, their children, and people with certain disabilities."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

    So this program for the poor serves more people than the UK's NHS. (I'd be interested to know how the per capita Medicaid spending compares with that of the NHS.)

    The US also subsidizes food for the poor through a program that once called food stamps, but is now the Supplementary Nutrition Assistance Program:
    "SNAP benefits supplied roughly 40 million Americans in 2018, at an expenditure of $57.1 billion.[2][3] Approximately 9.2% of American households obtained SNAP benefits at some point during 2017, with approximately 16.7% of all children living in households with SNAP benefits.[2] Beneficiaries and costs increased sharply with the Great Recession, peaked in 2013 and declined through 2017 as the economy recovered.[2] It is the largest nutrition program of the 15 administered by FNS and is a key component of the social safety net for low-income Americans."

    SNAP is popular now, and has always been. (Though medical experts have begun to worry that it contributes to our obesity problem.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program

    From a quick calculation:

    UK spending on the NHS is £176bn in 2023-24 covering circa 68 million people, £2,588 ($3,164) per person p.a.

    So, that would appear to be several times cheaper per capita than Medicaid which from your figures looks like $7,058 per person p.a. ($600bn covering 85m people).

    Of course, the NHS covers everyone, not just the poor and disabled, so it might be expected to have a healthier client base maybe?

    (If anyone thinks I've made a mistake with any of those figures, please feel free to correct me.)
    Agree with the basic analysis - NHS is relatively excellent value.

    Your Medicaid number seems somewhat low to me. A figure published for 2021 by "Medicaid and CHIP Payment and Access Commission" gives $8,651.

    Medicaid spent $8,651 in fiscal year 2021 for all enrollees and $9,175 per full-benefit enrollee. Full-benefit enrollees exclude those who received coverage for only emergency services, family planning services, or assistance with Medicare premiums and cost sharing.
    https://www.macpac.gov/publication/medicaid-benefit-spending-per-full-year-equivalent-fye-enrollee-by-state-and-eligibility-group/

    Medicaid also involves a co-pay ie recipient contribution, which raises an amount for which I can't find a total number. Varies by State. Looking around I'd say copay is of the order of hundreds of dollars per person per year. But I am not clear if it is in those total numbers we quote.

    But OTOH Medicaid has some cover for what we call social care and long term support.

    A fairly good summary analysis of some aspects of Medicaid from the Kaiser Family Foundation:
    https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/10-things-to-know-about-medicaid/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    Five Republicans left then:

    Donald Trump
    Ron DeSantis
    Vivek Ramaswarmy
    Nikki Haley
    Chris Christie

    (Plus Doug Burgum and Asa Hutchinson, who theoretically have campaigns still going).

    Can’t see Christie making the next debate either, so we’ll be down to four serious contenders before the primaries even start. Does Trump turn up for the December debate, if it’s only going to be four of them?
    Of course not, the debate is the race for second and he has already won.
    No, he hasn't.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    It is not the job of the BoE to protect the public from the government's mistakes.
    Nor is it their job to make avoidable mistakes. The B o E seems to view economic growth and wage rises as bad things.
    In any normal world the Governor would have been sacked over allowing inflation to rise to double figures and be above target for such a prolonged period.

    Action too little too late and yet he is allowed to spout on its workers wanting a pay rise causing it.
  • IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    ..


  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    TOPPING said:

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    Imagine being on the same side as a group of people who, given the opportunity, would have killed you and your family while you were on holiday just because of who you were, not what you'd done.
    The tricky question is formulating a policy that supports good people and aspirations on both (or all) sides, and opposes the bad people and their aspirations.

    I cannot think that any demo captures this position, probably the one held by the great majority of non-attenders, who nonetheless pay attention and vote.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Dura_Ace said:

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    You prove my point that the incubators are being used as human shields so killibg the babies in them is OK.

    Pathetic mate
    So what's your answer? How would you have Israel deal with Hamas?
    Stop killing everyone in sight for a start
    Get the colonists out of the West Bank
    Lift the blockade of Gaza
    Do everything possible to make Palestine a viable state
    Remove the IDF conscription waiver for the 48-Arabs forcing that august institution to be more secular and multi-cultural
    They're good answers, thanks. You're one of only a couple of posters who've actually answered.

    Do you think Hamas will do anything in response? Or see the above as an utter victory and do the same again? How do you stop Hamas doing the same again?

    Some of those are also medium- and long-term things, which have zero effect in the short term.

    (Although I'd argue they're not 'killing everyone in sight')
  • They also came up with 'New Labour, New Danger'. Not sure the Tories will be devastated with losing a company whose last notable political success coincided with Rentaghost.

    On its own it isn't a very interesting story (like the whole of the front page), but obviously its far from the only one.

    Out of interest, how are the Indy still going? They are online only now and their website is horrific. Their offering is significantly inferior to Times or Guardian.
    Don't see the Indy these days. It doesn't like my ad blocker, so it can bugger off.
    The Independent currently offers a year's subscription for £20 (down from, and continuing at £99).

    But what you can do to read the news bits without adverts is use MS's Edge browser with strict non-tracking (and let it through your main ad blocker). Some sites will object, and others raise their eyebrows at Edge in this configuration. It is ironic given how much data Edge passes on to Microsoft if you let it.
  • Just rejoice at that news.
  • Sean_F said:

    The country is going to the dogs.

    Pupils should be taught maths, sciences, history (and the classics in particular).

    Pupils should celebrate working-class culture, school experts say

    Songs by The Specials and films such as Trainspotting could be part of the curriculum to challenge classism


    Pulp sang about a rich student who wanted to live like “common people”. Now a book suggests the song should be studied at school, along with books, films and music that celebrate working-class culture.

    Its authors, two education consultants — one a former teacher and both from working-class backgrounds — say schools must do more to raise standards among disadvantaged children and recognise their rich heritage rather than seeing it as a weakness.

    They say meritocracy is “smoke and mirrors” and criticise social mobility as lifting a few working-class children away from their identity rather than challenging snobbery.

    White working-class boys are some of the lowest achievers at school, on average, and their book says classroom attitudes must change to boost standards.

    Day-to-day practices in England’s schools often unintentionally draw attention to family incomes and make children feel embarrassed and different, the book says. These include expensive uniform policies, non-uniform days and requests from teachers to bring in pencil cases.

    Matt Bromley and Andy Griffith, the authors of The Working Classroom, say every school’s curriculum should celebrate working-class culture alongside the culture of dominant classes, but that poorer children should also not be excluded from “high culture”.

    While every pupil should be offered the same ambitious curriculum, there should be more opportunities for working-class pupils to ensure equity.

    “So much of what schools do is classist, including the way the curriculum is designed, the way the assessment system works and the impact of the hidden curriculum on students,” the book says.

    “Social mobility implies lifting students out of the working classes and leaving behind all that they are and identify with. Rather, the aim of equity in education is to celebrate and embrace students’ working-class roots, while simultaneously ensuring those roots don’t take a stranglehold of their life chances.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pupils-should-celebrate-working-class-culture-school-experts-say-kv8nq7lr3

    They're right.
    They aren’t right about social mobility. The fact that the typical Briton has moved up from being a farm labourer, servant, chimney sweep, coal miner to being a home-owning office worker, over the past two centuries, is an unalloyed blessing.
    WWC boys are definitely disadvantaged, but singing Jarvis Cocker isn't going to do a damn thing for them nor is dumbing down the curriculum. Good education will.

    This sounds like virtue-signalling and grandstanding to me - and we've had left-wing educational specialists make similar arguments like this for over 50 years.
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    Five Republicans left then:

    Donald Trump
    Ron DeSantis
    Vivek Ramaswarmy
    Nikki Haley
    Chris Christie

    (Plus Doug Burgum and Asa Hutchinson, who theoretically have campaigns still going).

    Can’t see Christie making the next debate either, so we’ll be down to four serious contenders before the primaries even start. Does Trump turn up for the December debate, if it’s only going to be four of them?
    Of course not, the debate is the race for second and he has already won.
    A more concentrated field doesn’t help him though. It creates a focal point around an alternative.

    If DeSantis was smart he’d see now is not his time (if there ever will come a time, but that’s another point) and bow out. If it becomes Trump v Haley it potentially becomes interesting.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I would replace her with Alex Chalk as he’s by far the best performer in interviews and massively knowledgeable on his brief. Comes from a legal background and no apparent behavioural issues. He seems humane about justice and could steady the Home Office in the last year whilst dealing with the inevitable Small Boats fallout either way from Wednesday.

    Against him are the fact he was at school with Sunak, he’s a man which might be a problem if all four major offices are held by men, and he’s likely to lose his seat at the next election (which probably applies to all candidates in reality but still.).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited November 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    Imagine labelling the death of 5000 babies self defence

    Imagine thinking that half a million people on a peaceful march calling for a ceasfire on armistice day are evil and are putting the cenotaph at risk

    Imagine arguing that it's okay to kill babies on incubators because you've labelled them human
    shields.

    Imagine being on the same side as Tommy Robinson.

    A number of respected PBers hold these views along with a couple that you wouldn't expect anything better

    And yet not a word against Hamas who dug the tunnels for their military citadel underneath the maternity ward. Which is a war crime.
    You prove my point that the incubators are being used as human shields so killibg the babies in them is OK.

    Pathetic mate
    So what's your answer? How would you have Israel deal with Hamas?
    Stop killing everyone in sight for a start
    Get the colonists out of the West Bank
    Lift the blockade of Gaza
    Do everything possible to make Palestine a viable state
    Remove the IDF conscription waiver for the 48-Arabs forcing that august institution to be more secular and multi-cultural
    The colonists tried getting out of Gaza and made plans to develop its infrastructure together with the ruling government. Go check it out. Yes really the pulled out of Gaza, over to you lads, no blockade in fact we're going to help you develop the port plus we've left a whole load of stuff for you also.

    How did that turn out for the colonists?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    It is not the job of the BoE to protect the public from the government's mistakes.
    Its job is to not make its own mistakes; the BoE had a particular task of keeping inflation at 2% or thereabouts. They failed abysmally in this. If they were to make up for this, prices need to be stable or falling for several years.

    It always was obvious that keeping interest rates at practically zero for years would have the effect of stoking asset values and debasing the currency. The BoE, parliament and government were in total denial of this for years, and it has had a massive effect both on younger people (property prices etc), and the older people too (artificially low returns on deposits).

    It was also obvious that government ought to have taken advantage of cheap money to invest seriously in our infrastructure.
    They failed miserably to seize the opportunity.
  • IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2023
    ...
    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I'm calling it for Lee Anderson as HS!

    Well would you put it past them?

    ( Or worse still, Jenrick)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Wonder if Hunt might resign too today seeing as he's standing down for the next GE. The exchange of letters will be more cordial than Bravermann's I think !
  • IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    You have won the 2023 PB Rogerdamus award.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    It was hardly the Spanish Inquisition....

    The BBC suggesting Michelle Donelan as a possible new HS
  • IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    He had party management issues either way, because the party is massively divided and the leading MPs dislike each other and over rate their own capabilities and silly ideas.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Wonder if Hunt might resign too today seeing as he's standing down for the next GE. The exchange of letters will be more cordial than Bravermann's I think !

    It would be quite brave to do so just before the November statement
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    TimS said:

    ...

    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I'm calling it for Lee Anderson as HS!

    Well would you put it past them?
    The form horse in these sorts of circumstances would be Shapps. Never knowingly unavailable.
    He could run several departments at the same time with each of his assumed names.
  • Just rejoice at that news.

    Gonna enjoy my tofu tonight.
  • IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    Oh, I don't know. If I know Suella like I think I know Suella, she'll accept the setback with her customary grace and humility, then work tirelessly to assist the Prime Minister in whatever way she can from the backbenches, whether by rallying the troops or by campaigning tirelessly for Conservative victory at the General Election.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Suspect the odious Suella will now disappear into near obscurity a la Patel. The latest in a long line of thick nutters visited on the country by a clapped-out party.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Can he survive now is the big question - does the Party go full on Bill Cash or does it reclaim some of the sanity it has lost over the past few years.

    Big moment. I don't necessarily see Rishi as the grip the party by the scruff of the neck we're going this way kind of guy but cometh the hour...
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    S&S are also behind the bloody awful new John Lewis ad, so there is that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Getting sacked is a lifestyle choice
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Gonna enjoy my tofu tonight.
    A wokerati-party ?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    Does this make Sunak woke?

    Hard to keep up.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Fantastic front page. The juxtaposition of the photograph and the apparently unrelated headline is magnificent. Harold Evans would be jealous.
  • .. and I actually expected Rishi to keep her, and I think this move actually weakens Braverman rather than strengthens her. She will now be the person who was sacked for the events of this weekend, and that will not play particularly well. She will now rightly or wrongly be painted with the “far right” label.
  • Just rejoice at that news.

    Gonna enjoy my tofu tonight.
    Same.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188

    Pulpstar said:

    Wonder if Hunt might resign too today seeing as he's standing down for the next GE. The exchange of letters will be more cordial than Bravermann's I think !

    It would be quite brave to do so just before the November statement
    Does he go full term then ?

    Will be a bit odd to go into a campaign with no "live" Chancellor, equally if he's to go it has to be at some point. Perhaps not before either of the big set pieces as you say mind.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    He had party management issues either way, because the party is massively divided and the leading MPs dislike each other and over rate their own capabilities and silly ideas.
    This is true. The party is f*cked.
  • The police said that she incited a riot. Never mind sacking her, lets have her arrested. A very serious criminal offence, once which led to police officers being injured.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    Good morning everyone.

    I see that Rishi's proposal I mentioned last week to change Work Capability Assessments because too many people were being given benefits has broken cover over at the Beeb:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67385385

    The proposals follow the announcement in March that the government wants to scrap the controversial Work Capability Assessment, which is used to determine if people can receive additional benefits payments due to a health condition.

    Eligible claimants currently receive £390 a month on top of their universal credit payment.

    If the proposals are enacted, people who, for instance, are in severe pain while awaiting an operation or have some mental health conditions, such as depression and anxiety, may not receive the additional payment but would be expected to look for work.


    The existing assessment process is an amateurish dog's breakfast since the last lot of 'reforms'. God knows what they will end up doing this time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Cleverley called in - the new HS?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    Or it singlehandedly reduces Labour's lead to single figures.

    (Although you are probably correct.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Wonder if Hunt might resign too today seeing as he's standing down for the next GE. The exchange of letters will be more cordial than Bravermann's I think !

    It would be quite brave to do so just before the November statement
    Does he go full term then ?

    Will be a bit odd to go into a campaign with no "live" Chancellor, equally if he's to go it has to be at some point. Perhaps not before either of the big set pieces as you say mind.
    Step forward Mel Stride ?
  • I suppose it doesn’t matter if you have the most advanced armed forces in the region and the backing of Big Daddy Biden, but the Israeli government seem amazingly crap at the pr game. This is embarrassing.

    https://x.com/lowkey0nline/status/1723647395248955657?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • Just rejoice at that news.

    Not if the new Home Secretary is another draftee from one of the party's "research groups".
  • Nigelb said:

    Just rejoice at that news.

    Gonna enjoy my tofu tonight.
    A wokerati-party ?
    Every day's a party for the wokerati. That's why the Right hate us.
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Tim Scott suspends his presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/12/tim-scott-presidential-campaign-00126793
    ...he remained at risk of failing to qualify for the next debate, which had even higher donor and polling criteria. The polling threshold for that debate, on Dec. 6 in Alabama, is 6 percent, a mark Scott has not been hitting. And the campaign had dwindling resources to try and improve his numbers, having spent significantly more than it had brought in. The campaign had $12.4 million in expenditures during the third fundraising quarter, while raising $4.6 million...

    Five Republicans left then:

    Donald Trump
    Ron DeSantis
    Vivek Ramaswarmy
    Nikki Haley
    Chris Christie

    (Plus Doug Burgum and Asa Hutchinson, who theoretically have campaigns still going).

    Can’t see Christie making the next debate either, so we’ll be down to four serious contenders before the primaries even start. Does Trump turn up for the December debate, if it’s only going to be four of them?
    Of course not, the debate is the race for second and he has already won.
    A more concentrated field doesn’t help him though. It creates a focal point around an alternative.

    If DeSantis was smart he’d see now is not his time (if there ever will come a time, but that’s another point) and bow out. If it becomes Trump v Haley it potentially becomes interesting.
    The two way Trump v Haley breaks 50:15 at the moment. It is noticably better than Trump v RDS which is around 64:12.

    On this side of the pond, observers overestimate how open Republicans are to changing their minds on Trump, and think events will change things. Yet his polling over the last year has steadily grown from mid 40s to high 50s despite numerous criminal trials, him starting to sound even more mad and heading further down the dictator is best route.

    Western liberal democracy needs a lot of luck and good economic news over the next 12 months.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    IanB2 said:

    Yay - she's gone!

    Back to the backbenches

    I didn't expect that.

    I suspect it will further stir up party management issues for Rishi.
    Oh, I don't know. If I know Suella like I think I know Suella, she'll accept the setback with her customary grace and humility, then work tirelessly to assist the Prime Minister in whatever way she can from the backbenches, whether by rallying the troops or by campaigning tirelessly for Conservative victory at the General Election.
    She'd need to be slightly careful.

    If the Tories are so bad in the next year that they have a no swing back election, EC currently has her with a 6% majority.

    Depending on the nature of her personal vote
    she could even evaporate such a majority (although retained Tories in such an election could be regarded as fairly hardcore).

    In short, there is a limit to how bad Suella Braverman would like it to get.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    I see the Tories have sacked the trombonist on the Titanic
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see that Rishi's proposal I mentioned last week to change Work Capability Assessments because too many people were being given benefits has broken cover over at the Beeb:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67385385

    The proposals follow the announcement in March that the government wants to scrap the controversial Work Capability Assessment, which is used to determine if people can receive additional benefits payments due to a health condition.

    Eligible claimants currently receive £390 a month on top of their universal credit payment.

    If the proposals are enacted, people who, for instance, are in severe pain while awaiting an operation or have some mental health conditions, such as depression and anxiety, may not receive the additional payment but would be expected to look for work.


    The existing assessment process is an amateurish dog's breakfast since the last lot of 'reforms'. God knows what they will end up doing this time.

    Complete randomness as work coaches randomly pick victims to ensure they hit their sanction targets...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    IanB2 said:

    Cleverley called in - the new HS?

    Has anyone ever moved from FS to HS before ?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Wonder if Hunt might resign too today seeing as he's standing down for the next GE. The exchange of letters will be more cordial than Bravermann's I think !

    It would be quite brave to do so just before the November statement
    Does he go full term then ?

    Will be a bit odd to go into a campaign with no "live" Chancellor, equally if he's to go it has to be at some point. Perhaps not before either of the big set pieces as you say mind.
    Step forward Mel Stride ?
    He’s a shoe-in for the Ministry of silly walks.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Bad Enoch also likely to be moved on: Sky.

    She is absolutely hopeless so wouldn’t be a surprise.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Scott_xP said:

    Getting sacked is a lifestyle choice

    It's this Matt cartoon that brought her down - finally losing the Telegraph reader vote:

    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1722669251121574118


  • Bad Enoch also likely to be moved on: Sky.

    She is absolutely hopeless so wouldn’t be a surprise.

    Now that would be a declaration of intent from Sunak, and potentially dangerous. Clearing out 2 of the top 3 leadership contenders from cabinet… it would certainly turn heads.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    edited November 2023
    Cleverly the new Home Sec.

    Acceptable to this One Nationer.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    Some suggestion that the MPC might hold rates at the current rate until late next year because services inflation is going to fall more slowly than the headline rate. I hope that this report has come from a financial illiterate and isn't actually reflective of the BoE outlook because services inflation is a hugely lagging indicator and tracks to wage rises which account for almost the entirety of input price inflation for services providers. If the CPI rate falls then wage rises fall and eventually services inflation follows.

    If the BoE waits for services inflation to fall before cutting rates we're going to be in the shit and just as we were way, way too late and slow in raising rates we're going to be too late and slow in cutting them.

    Andrew Bailey is going to cost the Tories an extra 30-40 seats they would probably otherwise hold onto with interest rates falling by April to May next year and down to ~3.5% by election time in October-December.

    It is not the job of the BoE to protect the public from the government's mistakes.
    Its job is to not make its own mistakes; the BoE had a particular task of keeping inflation at 2% or thereabouts. They failed abysmally in this. If they were to make up for this, prices need to be stable or falling for several years.

    It always was obvious that keeping interest rates at practically zero for years would have the effect of stoking asset values and debasing the currency. The BoE, parliament and government were in total denial of this for years, and it has had a massive effect both on younger people (property prices etc), and the older people too (artificially low returns on deposits).

    This does highlight the ridiculous nature of targeting raw inflation figures. How exactly was the BoE supposed to prevent the war in Ukraine driving up energy prices in the UK by a factor of 5 or more? (Currently roughly triple pre war prices from eyeballing the chart.)

    We should expect everything to get more expensive in that scenario! We are a nation that on net imports energy - if the price of that energy increases, we have to pay more, one way or another: Everything has energy as an input, so everything gets more expensive.
  • Has she gone? I'm watching BBC Breakfast do a fluff piece on a guy from Strictly and not a hint. I'm not a BBC basher by any means, but Breakfast has been shocking as a news program for a while.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,916
    edited November 2023
    Sacking Braverman a very risky move by Sunak, the right of the party will be angry at what they will see as his appeasing the liberal left and it risks further leakage to ReformUK.

    Braverman will of course be a thorn in Sunak's side on the backbenches too now and wait for Sunak and Hunt to lose the next general election when she will be a strong
    contender to be Leader of the Opposition
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .

    Bad Enoch also likely to be moved on: Sky.

    She is absolutely hopeless so wouldn’t be a surprise...

    ...were she to be promoted.
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    I see that Rishi's proposal I mentioned last week to change Work Capability Assessments because too many people were being given benefits has broken cover over at the Beeb:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67385385

    The proposals follow the announcement in March that the government wants to scrap the controversial Work Capability Assessment, which is used to determine if people can receive additional benefits payments due to a health condition.

    Eligible claimants currently receive £390 a month on top of their universal credit payment.

    If the proposals are enacted, people who, for instance, are in severe pain while awaiting an operation or have some mental health conditions, such as depression and anxiety, may not receive the additional payment but would be expected to look for work.


    The existing assessment process is an amateurish dog's breakfast since the last lot of 'reforms'. God knows what they will end up doing this time.

    I'm not sure that piece is going to help with the confusion. It's not very clear what is happening from it.
  • Cleverly the new Home Sec.

    Acceptable to this One Nationer.

    Does that make him HS2?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Bad Enoch also likely to be moved on: Sky.

    She is absolutely hopeless so wouldn’t be a surprise.

    As a sop to the swivel eyed, Badenoch wouldn't be the silliest of shouts as HS
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    edited November 2023
    My boy Dave the new Foreign Secretary????

    If that happens then I’m on team Rishi



  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Bad Enoch also likely to be moved on: Sky.

    She is absolutely hopeless so wouldn’t be a surprise.

    Now that would be a declaration of intent from Sunak, and potentially dangerous. Clearing out 2 of the top 3 leadership contenders from cabinet… it would certainly turn heads.
    She has been completely useless, indeed invisible, as business secretary. I serially questioned on PB what a certain stripe of PB Tory saw in her. A question to which I never received any satisfactory answer.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    BBC saying Cameron coming back as FS
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Cammo seen entering Number Ten....
  • Holy heck.

    That’s big.

    Sunak’s Mandelson moment.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Wtf is going on
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Neil O’Brien, a junior health minister, says he is leaving the government. He says he wants to focus on his constituency work, and to spend more time with his children...

    ... and his post Parliament job applications.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sacking Braverman a very risky move by Sunak, the right of the party will be angry at what they will see as his appeasing the liberal left and it risks further leakage to ReformUK.

    Braverman will of course be a thorn in Sunak's side on the backbenches too now and wait for Sunak and Hunt to lose the next general election when she will be a strong contender now to be Leader of the Opposition

    When you start thinking of the likes of Rishi and Hunt as liberal lefties, you should realise you are as barking as Rebecca Wrong-Daily or Chris Williamson calling Starmer a right wing Tory. You just lose even more votes....keep at it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    David Cameron new FS???
  • How is Cameron as FS going to work without him being an MP or a Lord?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    BBC saying Cameron coming back as FS

    We're reapplying for EU membership ?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited November 2023
    Unpopular said:

    How is Cameron as FS going to work without him being an MP or a Lord?

    Instant appointment to the Lords. Was the same with Mandelson.

    It does however break the convention that we thought had been established that the Great Offices of State are not granted to the peerage - Carrington was the last and it has for some time been assumed final FS from the Lords.
  • Rage, rage against the dying of the Right :lol:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    No cricket today or tomorrow, so I guess we have to hope for a cabinet reshuffle?

    Given your record on the cricket, you've just jinxed any hopes of that.
    Ahem!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Nick Gibb sacked
  • Cleverly the new Home Sec.

    Acceptable to this One Nationer.

    Does that make him HS2?
    He’ll be completely finished long before HS2.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Cleverly the new Home Sec.

    Acceptable to this One Nationer.

    I've been impressed by Cleverly when I've heard him recently. He seems to actually think a bit before speaking for one thing.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    Nick Gibb sacked

    Street party in Staffordshire, weather or no weather.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    Nigelb said:

    Neil O’Brien, a junior health minister, says he is leaving the government. He says he wants to focus on his constituency work, and to spend more time with his children...

    ... and his post Parliament job applications.

    Sky says he was sacked but it is disputed
  • Unpopular said:

    How is Cameron as FS going to work without him being an MP or a Lord?

    Instant appointment to the Lords. Was the same with Mandelson.

    It does however break the convention that we thought had been established that the Great Offices of State are not granted to the peerage - Carrington was the last and it has for some time been assumed final FS from the Lords.
    Maybe he got sick of being bed blocked by Blair and Brown (allegedly) not wanting to go to the Lord's and thought this is the best way?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Maybe it's going to be like the Avengers:

    Truss, Sunak, Johnson, May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major, Samuel L. Jackson.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660
    "David Cameron at Downing Street"

    Presumably as PM
This discussion has been closed.