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Is this a deliberate LAB move to help the LDs? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,215
    viewcode said:

    Incidentally, for all those of you who are discussing Oppenheimer, please note that Barbie and Oppenheimer are now grossing so hard they're squeezing MI:7pt1 out. Having lost the IMAX screens to Oppenheimer and now losing the multiplexes to B/O, Mission Impossible will end up losing a considerable chunk of its profits. Its like those old films where they stop oil fires with explosives.

    I still don’t feel sorry for Tom Cruise
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cook-at-home meal deals ‘should be banned to tackle obesity’
    A cross-party committee of MPs has recommended the move as part of a broader crackdown on junk food promotions'

    'Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said in June: “I firmly believe in people’s right to choose – and at a time when household budgets are under continuing pressure from the global rise in food prices, it is not fair for government to restrict the options available to consumers on their weekly shop.”

    However, the committee, which described the delay as “regrettable”, called on the Government to instead expand the regulation'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/ban-cook-at-home-meals-tackle-obesity-food-committee-efra/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1690531688-1

    That is truly bonkers. What they describe as "meal deals" are a starter, a main and a side. Perhaps they should ban people having multiple courses in a restaurant as well.
    However, there's soemthing odd going on with those meal deals anyway in terms of inflation, as @kinabalu (I think) was remarking the other day, quite coincidentally.

    One other way of superkarkets dealing with inflation is to reduce product quality so I wonder if there is a bit of that going on here.
    Superkarket is genius branding for the co-op funeral service
    Or the mass market version of Dignitas.

    Checkout at the checkouts.
    Don't knock it - the local Co-op funerals branch does a good job.
    They nail it?

    Can we get a handle on this punning situation?
    Dig deep?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cook-at-home meal deals ‘should be banned to tackle obesity’
    A cross-party committee of MPs has recommended the move as part of a broader crackdown on junk food promotions'

    'Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said in June: “I firmly believe in people’s right to choose – and at a time when household budgets are under continuing pressure from the global rise in food prices, it is not fair for government to restrict the options available to consumers on their weekly shop.”

    However, the committee, which described the delay as “regrettable”, called on the Government to instead expand the regulation'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/ban-cook-at-home-meals-tackle-obesity-food-committee-efra/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1690531688-1

    That is truly bonkers. What they describe as "meal deals" are a starter, a main and a side. Perhaps they should ban people having multiple courses in a restaurant as well.
    However, there's soemthing odd going on with those meal deals anyway in terms of inflation, as @kinabalu (I think) was remarking the other day, quite coincidentally.

    One other way of superkarkets dealing with inflation is to reduce product quality so I wonder if there is a bit of that going on here.
    Superkarket is genius branding for the co-op funeral service
    Or the mass market version of Dignitas.

    Checkout at the checkouts.
    Don't knock it - the local Co-op funerals branch does a good job.
    They nail it?

    Can we get a handle on this punning situation?
    Dig deep?
    It's too grave for that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wanker of a third umpire.

    He was a few inches short of his ground there.
    Bairstow apparently knocked the bail off too early.
    BFWHDT.
    That was seriously close and Bairstow certainly complicated it but the closer you looked the more out it looked.
    Bluntly, I think it was out. I think the umpire got it wrong.

    But - it makes no difference what I think. The scorecard shows him still in.
    Was the ball in his glove when he broke the stumps? The replay on the BBC website doesn't show it very clearly.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,028
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    But I don't think disabled character = disabled actor because that might run the risk of typecasting disabled actors as only being able to play disabled roles.
    That is the problem with the trend of authenticity, which is bollocks. It often starts from a real issue - lack of representation for certain groups, or stereotypical roles only - but the solution to that cannot be authenticity, because then that locks the same groups out from other roles, and will inevitably severely limit every actor's ability to be flexible in a role.

    The issue of representation of groups has already improved, even with more to do the Sheen approach is just counter productive. Baddiel highlights a reasonable point when he notes people applying that kind of approach often seem to have made an exception for jews, but his solution of extending that approach rather than ending it is wrong, in my view. I wasn't convinced by it in his book and am not now.
    I liked his book but that was politics. This is something different. No reason why you can't have Cush Jumbo playing Hamlet, Hugh Grant playing Golda Meir, or Michael Balogun playing Emanuel Lehman.
    Possibly non-coincidentally, the trailer for "Golda" came out a few days ago, with the entirely non-Jewish Helen Mirren playing Prime Minister of Israel Golda Meir.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unW5w6JCEb8
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,215
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cook-at-home meal deals ‘should be banned to tackle obesity’
    A cross-party committee of MPs has recommended the move as part of a broader crackdown on junk food promotions'

    'Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said in June: “I firmly believe in people’s right to choose – and at a time when household budgets are under continuing pressure from the global rise in food prices, it is not fair for government to restrict the options available to consumers on their weekly shop.”

    However, the committee, which described the delay as “regrettable”, called on the Government to instead expand the regulation'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/ban-cook-at-home-meals-tackle-obesity-food-committee-efra/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1690531688-1

    That is truly bonkers. What they describe as "meal deals" are a starter, a main and a side. Perhaps they should ban people having multiple courses in a restaurant as well.
    However, there's soemthing odd going on with those meal deals anyway in terms of inflation, as @kinabalu (I think) was remarking the other day, quite coincidentally.

    One other way of superkarkets dealing with inflation is to reduce product quality so I wonder if there is a bit of that going on here.
    Superkarket is genius branding for the co-op funeral service
    Or the mass market version of Dignitas.

    Checkout at the checkouts.
    Don't knock it - the local Co-op funerals
    branch does a good job.
    They nail it?

    Can we get a handle on this punning situation?
    You stuff with boredom already?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    edited July 2023
    Washington state's greatest senator, "Scoop" Jackson, was the son of Norwegian immigrants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Jackson

    (There are some in the UK who think well of him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Jackson_Society )

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    edited July 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wanker of a third umpire.

    He was a few inches short of his ground there.
    Bairstow apparently knocked the bail off too early.
    BFWHDT.
    That was seriously close and Bairstow certainly complicated it but the closer you looked the more out it looked.
    Bluntly, I think it was out. I think the umpire got it wrong.

    But - it makes no difference what I think. The scorecard shows him still in.
    Was the ball in his glove when he broke the stumps? The replay on the BBC website doesn't show it very clearly.
    As I understand the rules if the bail was off before the ball was in Bairstow's gloves, just breaking the stumps with ball in hand wouldn't be enough to run Smith out.

    The issue is - I'm not convinced the bail was 'off' within the meaning of the act.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,092
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cook-at-home meal deals ‘should be banned to tackle obesity’
    A cross-party committee of MPs has recommended the move as part of a broader crackdown on junk food promotions'

    'Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said in June: “I firmly believe in people’s right to choose – and at a time when household budgets are under continuing pressure from the global rise in food prices, it is not fair for government to restrict the options available to consumers on their weekly shop.”

    However, the committee, which described the delay as “regrettable”, called on the Government to instead expand the regulation'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/ban-cook-at-home-meals-tackle-obesity-food-committee-efra/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1690531688-1

    That is truly bonkers. What they describe as "meal deals" are a starter, a main and a side. Perhaps they should ban people having multiple courses in a restaurant as well.
    However, there's soemthing odd going on with those meal deals anyway in terms of inflation, as @kinabalu (I think) was remarking the other day, quite coincidentally.

    One other way of superkarkets dealing with inflation is to reduce product quality so I wonder if there is a bit of that going on here.
    Superkarket is genius branding for the co-op funeral service
    Or the mass market version of Dignitas.

    Checkout at the checkouts.
    Don't knock it - the local Co-op funerals branch does a good job.
    They nail it?

    Can we get a handle on this punning situation?
    Dig deep?
    It's too grave for that.
    You’re boxed in?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Wanker of a third umpire.

    He was a few inches short of his ground there.
    Bairstow apparently knocked the bail off too early.
    BFWHDT.
    That was seriously close and Bairstow certainly complicated it but the closer you looked the more out it looked.
    Bluntly, I think it was out. I think the umpire got it wrong.

    But - it makes no difference what I think. The scorecard shows him still in.
    Was the ball in his glove when he broke the stumps? The replay on the BBC website doesn't show it very clearly.
    As I understand the rules if the bail was off before the ball was in Bairstow's gloves, just breaking the stumps with ball in hand wouldn't be enough to run Smith out.

    The issue is - I'm not convinced the bail was 'off' within the meaning of the act.
    I did warn you about Smith and the tail.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cook-at-home meal deals ‘should be banned to tackle obesity’
    A cross-party committee of MPs has recommended the move as part of a broader crackdown on junk food promotions'

    'Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said in June: “I firmly believe in people’s right to choose – and at a time when household budgets are under continuing pressure from the global rise in food prices, it is not fair for government to restrict the options available to consumers on their weekly shop.”

    However, the committee, which described the delay as “regrettable”, called on the Government to instead expand the regulation'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/ban-cook-at-home-meals-tackle-obesity-food-committee-efra/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1690531688-1

    That is truly bonkers. What they describe as "meal deals" are a starter, a main and a side. Perhaps they should ban people having multiple courses in a restaurant as well.
    However, there's soemthing odd going on with those meal deals anyway in terms of inflation, as @kinabalu (I think) was remarking the other day, quite coincidentally.

    One other way of superkarkets dealing with inflation is to reduce product quality so I wonder if there is a bit of that going on here.
    Superkarket is genius branding for the co-op funeral service
    Or the mass market version of Dignitas.

    Checkout at the checkouts.
    Don't knock it - the local Co-op funerals branch does a good job.
    They nail it?

    Can we get a handle on this punning situation?
    Dig deep?
    It's too grave for that.
    You’re boxed in?
    Well, they're hardly the crem de la crem.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,597

    There is also a small amount of American country music in Africa, as I learned from a NYT article some years ago. A young Kenyan woman was aspiring to be the Dolly Parton of her hill country. (She looked quite fetching on the horse she was riding. And, as has often happened with US country singers, she got her start singing in a church choir.)

    There are worse role models.

    Country music tapes and CDs were on sale in Malawi when I was there a decade ago, and quite popular with locals, alongside soul, reggae, rap and kwaito. As a style country music requires a good singing voice and simple themes, and sounds good even on a fairly tinny system.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    Wood now bowling in the low 80s.

    Lead less than 50.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    The odd thing about what Bairstow did with the run out is that for a few frames on the replay he completely moved the stumps out of their normal position without the bails leaving the grooves, which must be a very unlikely set of circumstances to happen. You probably couldn't do it deliberately if you tried.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    viewcode said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    But I don't think disabled character = disabled actor because that might run the risk of typecasting disabled actors as only being able to play disabled roles.
    That is the problem with the trend of authenticity, which is bollocks. It often starts from a real issue - lack of representation for certain groups, or stereotypical roles only - but the solution to that cannot be authenticity, because then that locks the same groups out from other roles, and will inevitably severely limit every actor's ability to be flexible in a role.

    The issue of representation of groups has already improved, even with more to do the Sheen approach is just counter productive. Baddiel highlights a reasonable point when he notes people applying that kind of approach often seem to have made an exception for jews, but his solution of extending that approach rather than ending it is wrong, in my view. I wasn't convinced by it in his book and am not now.
    I liked his book but that was politics. This is something different. No reason why you can't have Cush Jumbo playing Hamlet, Hugh Grant playing Golda Meir, or Michael Balogun playing Emanuel Lehman.
    Possibly non-coincidentally, the trailer for "Golda" came out a few days ago, with the entirely non-Jewish Helen Mirren playing Prime Minister of Israel Golda Meir.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unW5w6JCEb8
    The authenticity that yours truly wants, is this - did Helen Mirren also graduate from Milwaukee State?

    IF the Dame, as I suspect, did NOT . . .
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,470
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
    Tropic Thunder is now apparently “problematic” due to Robert Downie Junior in black-face even though the point of him in black face is so over the top ridiculous to mock method acting and the idea that a white man can understand the reality of a black man in Vietnam and therefore is patently an anti-racism stance.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    edited July 2023
    Off topic: But I think some of you will be interested in this unknown -- but not deservedly -- presidential candidate: 'North Dakota’s governor was exasperated. North Korean hackers were targeting the families of soldiers who guard the Minuteman missile silos in the state, fishing for information. Gov. Doug Burgum asked the Pentagon for help and was told that the Defense Department’s cybersecurity personnel were stretched to their capacities. He has the impatience of someone not only knowledgeable about cyber things but whose mental processes orient him toward a future that can be, he believes, glittering — if we will just get out of our own way: “innovation, not regulation.”'

    Burgum founded a successful software company in North Dakota, sold it to Microsoft, worked for that company for some years, and was first elected governor in 2016.

    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/28/doug-burgum-presidential-candidate-qualifications/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    Smith out. Just rejoice at that news.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
    It's acting, dear boy. Free yourself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
    Tropic Thunder is now apparently “problematic” due to Robert Downie Junior in black-face even though the point of him in black face is so over the top ridiculous to mock method acting and the idea that a white man can understand the reality of a black man in Vietnam and therefore is patently an anti-racism stance.
    Quite a few black people give Tropic Thunder as an example of doing black face right. For the reasons you give.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    Nigelb said:

    Wood now bowling in the low 80s.

    Lead less than 50.

    Good try. Sadly I think it's too late.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,482
    edited July 2023
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    No, I'm saying the idea it's just 'acting dear boy' is facile and outdated.

    Look, I've said it again.
    Nah, this is as daft in its way as those who claim that James Bond can't be a black man or that the utterly brilliant David Copperfield wasn't proper Dickens because of its multi-cultural cast. What matters is the direction and the acting, not the physical or racial characteristics of the actors, unless they are fundemental to the story itself. And even then it is possible to do great things. Patrick Stewart's white Othello in an otherwise all black cast was amazing and gave a really good new perspective to the play. .
    You put your finger on it ... if they are fundamental to the story itself

    That's what I'm saying. It's about exactly that. The role and the context of the role in the story. Which requires a judgement each time. Therefore no Rules, case by case. Same as so many things really.
    Nope because you are ignoring the following sentence. Othello being black is fundemental to the story because it is first and foremost a story of racism. And yet having a white Othello does nthing to detract from that if played in the right way.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,092
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    No, I'm saying the idea it's just 'acting dear boy' is facile and outdated.

    Look, I've said it again.
    Nah, this is as daft in its way as those who claim that James Bond can't be a black man or that the utterly brilliant David Copperfield wasn't proper Dickens because of its multi-cultural cast. What matters is the direction and the acting, not the physical or racial characteristics of the actors, unless they are fundemental to the story itself. And even then it is possible to do great things. Patrick Stewart's white Othello in an otherwise all black cast was amazing and gave a really good new perspective to the play. .
    You put your finger on it ... if they are fundamental to the story itself

    That's what I'm saying. It's about exactly that. The role and the context of the role in the story. Which requires a judgement each time. Therefore no Rules, case by case. Same as so many things really.
    Indeed. I'd suggest it rarely will be fundamental, outside of biopics and attempts at intense historical accuracy (which most films are not attempting).

    The Othello example was probably a good one, because it seems fundamental and a complete random mix in the casting would presumably undermine part of the point, whereas a reversal of the regular approach still allows for the role to be appropriate in context.
    I think most 'out of the box' castings are fine. And if they don't quite work, so what, worth a try.

    But not (eg) Grant as Golda Meir. Or, to go into fiction, what about casting Sydney Poitier instead of Gregory Peck as Atticus Finch in Mocking Bird? I think I'd say no to that too. For the same reason - because of the role and the context of the role in the story.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,092

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    No, I'm saying the idea it's just 'acting dear boy' is facile and outdated.

    Look, I've said it again.
    Nah, this is as daft in its way as those who claim that James Bond can't be a black man or that the utterly brilliant David Copperfield wasn't proper Dickens because of its multi-cultural cast. What matters is the direction and the acting, not the physical or racial characteristics of the actors, unless they are fundemental to the story itself. And even then it is possible to do great things. Patrick Stewart's white Othello in an otherwise all black cast was amazing and gave a really good new perspective to the play. .
    You put your finger on it ... if they are fundamental to the story itself

    That's what I'm saying. It's about exactly that. The role and the context of the role in the story. Which requires a judgement each time. Therefore no Rules, case by case. Same as so many things really.
    Nope because you are igoring the following sentence. Othello being black is fundemental to the story because it is first and foremost a story of racism. And yet having a white Othello does nthing to detract from that if played in the right way.
    I haven't seen that but I think it can detract. It depends. Eg a black Atticus Finch. It might work but only as a kind of outre experiment race-reversing all the other parts too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    No, I'm saying the idea it's just 'acting dear boy' is facile and outdated.

    Look, I've said it again.
    Nah, this is as daft in its way as those who claim that James Bond can't be a black man or that the utterly brilliant David Copperfield wasn't proper Dickens because of its multi-cultural cast. What matters is the direction and the acting, not the physical or racial characteristics of the actors, unless they are fundemental to the story itself. And even then it is possible to do great things. Patrick Stewart's white Othello in an otherwise all black cast was amazing and gave a really good new perspective to the play. .
    You put your finger on it ... if they are fundamental to the story itself

    That's what I'm saying. It's about exactly that. The role and the context of the role in the story. Which requires a judgement each time. Therefore no Rules, case by case. Same as so many things really.
    Nope because you are ignoring the following sentence. Othello being black is fundemental to the story because it is first and foremost a story of racism. And yet having a white Othello does nthing to detract from that if played in the right way.
    By making everyone else black…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    No, I'm saying the idea it's just 'acting dear boy' is facile and outdated.

    Look, I've said it again.
    Nah, this is as daft in its way as those who claim that James Bond can't be a black man or that the utterly brilliant David Copperfield wasn't proper Dickens because of its multi-cultural cast. What matters is the direction and the acting, not the physical or racial characteristics of the actors, unless they are fundemental to the story itself. And even then it is possible to do great things. Patrick Stewart's white Othello in an otherwise all black cast was amazing and gave a really good new perspective to the play. .
    You put your finger on it ... if they are fundamental to the story itself

    That's what I'm saying. It's about exactly that. The role and the context of the role in the story. Which requires a judgement each time. Therefore no Rules, case by case. Same as so many things really.
    Nope because you are ignoring the following sentence. Othello being black is fundemental to the story because it is first and foremost a story of racism. And yet having a white Othello does nthing to detract from that if played in the right way.
    Baddiel's point, though, is that Oppenheimer isn't.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    No, I'm saying the idea it's just 'acting dear boy' is facile and outdated.

    Look, I've said it again.
    Nah, this is as daft in its way as those who claim that James Bond can't be a black man or that the utterly brilliant David Copperfield wasn't proper Dickens because of its multi-cultural cast. What matters is the direction and the acting, not the physical or racial characteristics of the actors, unless they are fundemental to the story itself. And even then it is possible to do great things. Patrick Stewart's white Othello in an otherwise all black cast was amazing and gave a really good new perspective to the play. .
    You put your finger on it ... if they are fundamental to the story itself

    That's what I'm saying. It's about exactly that. The role and the context of the role in the story. Which requires a judgement each time. Therefore no Rules, case by case. Same as so many things really.
    Nope because you are ignoring the following sentence. Othello being black is fundemental to the story because it is first and foremost a story of racism. And yet having a white Othello does nthing to detract from that if played in the right way.
    By making everyone else black…
    The Patrick Stewart solution:

    https://www.arogundade.com/patrick-stewart-shakespeares-white-othello-from-arogundade-books.html
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,092
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
    It's acting, dear boy. Free yourself.
    Perhaps if it was a comedy. But what sort of comedy would that be? Rather crass if you ask me.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,788
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cook-at-home meal deals ‘should be banned to tackle obesity’
    A cross-party committee of MPs has recommended the move as part of a broader crackdown on junk food promotions'

    'Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said in June: “I firmly believe in people’s right to choose – and at a time when household budgets are under continuing pressure from the global rise in food prices, it is not fair for government to restrict the options available to consumers on their weekly shop.”

    However, the committee, which described the delay as “regrettable”, called on the Government to instead expand the regulation'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/28/ban-cook-at-home-meals-tackle-obesity-food-committee-efra/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1690531688-1

    That is truly bonkers. What they describe as "meal deals" are a starter, a main and a side. Perhaps they should ban people having multiple courses in a restaurant as well.
    However, there's soemthing odd going on with those meal deals anyway in terms of inflation, as @kinabalu (I think) was remarking the other day, quite coincidentally.

    One other way of superkarkets dealing with inflation is to reduce product quality so I wonder if there is a bit of that going on here.
    Superkarket is genius branding for the co-op funeral service
    Or the mass market version of Dignitas.

    Checkout at the checkouts.
    Don't knock it - the local Co-op funerals branch does a good job.
    They nail it?

    Can we get a handle on this punning situation?
    Dig deep?
    It's too grave for that.
    You’re boxed in?
    Well, they're hardly the crem de la crem.
    Crème brûlée, even.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    Into the low 40s Celsius all along the front line in Ukraine next week.

    Lots of talk of historical wars being affected by freezing temperatures but I’d guess heatwaves could be a big problem too. Perhaps one advantage of trenches.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,316
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Meanwhile in good net zero news / UK falling behind the competition warning:

    China *added* more solar capacity in H1 this year than the *total* UK generating capacity across all forms of energy.

    https://twitter.com/gabrielmilland/status/1684911164814237696?s=46

    Meaningless comparison. What is it as a percentage of China's grid demand?

    Meanwhile...
    "Almost a third of Britain’s electricity, some 32.4% came from wind farms in the first quarter of the year compared with 31.7% from gas-fired power plants, marking the first quarter where wind power output was higher"
    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/british-wind-power-overtakes-gas-first-time-q1-2023-report-2023-05-10/

    Britain has a great record on decarbonising its electricity grid, despite the decline of its nuclear power generation.
    That's actually a question it's possible to answer using the very helpful ourworldindate website.

    As of 2022 solar made up 2.52% of Chinese electricity generation and 1.79% of UK generation. That's before this year's massive installation (though note they refer to capacity which is not the same as generation - capacity is what they would generate if it were midday and cloudless 24 hours a day).

    On total renewables, in China these make up 16% of generation and in the UK 19.3%. Both countries have been decarbonising rapidly although the current pace in China is greater - they have more potential to decarbonise further because they have much more coal in the mix. Coal has already declined from 74% of generation in China in 2007 (the most recent peak) to 55% now.

    This is good news. It negates a couple of common arguments: first that there's a trade off between decarbonisation and economic growth and that it's unfair of the West to insist the rest of the world denies itself fossil fuels - China shows it's perfectly possible to grow and decarbonise. Second that there's no point in the UK doing anything because China isn't. That's also not true. It's a bit more true to India frankly. And Russia of course. But they will lose out in the long run if they insist on dirty grids.
    There was only one question in my post and all your data didn't answer it. How big was the Chinese 2023 H1 installation of solar as a percentage of their total grid?

    Will it take that 2.52% up to 2.54%, or 2.72%, or 4.52% (assuming the same weather, and consequently capacity factor for the new solar capacity)?

    That's the relevant factor when deciding whether or not it is a good step forward for net zero, or a case of too little too slow.
    I’m not sure why you’re wanting to argue about this Twitter-style.

    It’s not as easy to do the maths here because the new installations are in GW while total generation is by TwH per year, so you have to divide it (around 40,000 TwH) by the number of hours in the year (8,760 apparently) so that’s 4,566 GW generation on average.

    The new installations in terms of capacity are therefore about 1.6%. Which would be huge. Almost doubling in 6 months. Except it’s not because that’s capacity. So you have to adjust for output vs capacity. Which ourworldindata helpfully suggests is about 1/8. So more like 0.2% added in half a year or 0.4% annualised. So it takes that 2.5 up to 2.9 in a year.

    Pretty good I think. That’s a lot of panels.
    The UK also brings significant offshore wind onstream in chunks at a time. In the record year of 2021 around 2GW which is about 3% of capacity (again before adjusting for efficiency).
    I'm not arguing with you particularly, but with the OP's comparison (for which they must have done similar calculations), which tells no-one anything of use, but it's simply made to bash Britain in an area where, unusually, Britain is actually doing quite well.

    Thanks for indulging me and doing the calculations. I agree that +0.4% in a half year is impressive, and presumably their rate of installations is still increasing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,570
    Explains that shocker from the third umpire.


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    Now that I didn't expect.

    Good morning! Looks like #UFO whistleblower Bob Lazar was a pimp (helped operate a “high-tech whorehouse”). Convicted.

    That’s out of this world!

    https://twitter.com/RepRiggleman/status/1684922913651412992
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Washington state's greatest senator, "Scoop" Jackson, was the son of Norwegian immigrants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Jackson

    (There are some in the UK who think well of him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Jackson_Society )

    Ditto Scoop's long-time (in fact senior) partner and Democratic colleague from The Evergreen State in US Senate, namely "Maggie" = Warren Magnuson.

    While Magnuson lacked Jackson's foreign policy credentials and resultant international recognition, he was a major force on the domestic front, and (along with Jackson) for WA State industry AND labor unions esp. Boeing and related aerospace and defense.

    Scoop Jackson never lost an election EXCEPT when he ran for President. In WA State he was just about as popular with Republicans as with Democrats; indeed by end of his career (due to untimely death in office) Scoop was MORE popular with GOP than with Dems, due to his strong anti-Soviet stance.

    Warren Magnuson on other hand was and still is very popular figure among WA Democrats; the state party's major annual fundraising event feature the "Maggie Awards".

    Maggie's lack of support among Republicans, combined with his age and Reagan coattails, led to his ultimate defeat in 1980 by (then) rising Republican Slade Gorton. Who retained Maggie's old senate seat until 2000 election, when he in turn was defeated by Democrat Maria Cantwell, who is still in office and up for (very likely) re-election in 2024.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,745
    The Telegraph has "Dame Alison Rose was a ‘great leader’ forced out by politics, says NatWest chairman"

    Ridiculous.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    TimS said:

    Into the low 40s Celsius all along the front line in Ukraine next week.

    Lots of talk of historical wars being affected by freezing temperatures but I’d guess heatwaves could be a big problem too. Perhaps one advantage of trenches.

    American (and most western) armoured vehicles have air conditioning. This isn’t just for comfort - but also humidity control and part of NBC capability.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    Murphy opening his shoulders.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,788
    Nigelb said:

    Now that I didn't expect.

    Good morning! Looks like #UFO whistleblower Bob Lazar was a pimp (helped operate a “high-tech whorehouse”). Convicted.

    That’s out of this world!

    https://twitter.com/RepRiggleman/status/1684922913651412992

    Anal probes a specialty, I presume.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    .
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Now that I didn't expect.

    Good morning! Looks like #UFO whistleblower Bob Lazar was a pimp (helped operate a “high-tech whorehouse”). Convicted.

    That’s out of this world!

    https://twitter.com/RepRiggleman/status/1684922913651412992

    Anal probes a specialty, I presume.
    Better still, the whistleblower tried to cover it up.
    https://twitter.com/GrifterHunter/status/1684939157997535232
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    edited July 2023
    TimS said:

    Into the low 40s Celsius all along the front line in Ukraine next week.

    Lots of talk of historical wars being affected by freezing temperatures but I’d guess heatwaves could be a big problem too. Perhaps one advantage of trenches.

    In the Russia/Ukraine area the spring and autumn are the most challenging times for fighting a war.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    Omnium said:

    The Telegraph has "Dame Alison Rose was a ‘great leader’ forced out by politics, says NatWest chairman"

    Ridiculous.

    NU10K - she needs (and deserves, in that system) a better job.

    Look out for the glossy magazine interview. All about her hurt and how being a woman has held her back.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981

    TimS said:

    Into the low 40s Celsius all along the front line in Ukraine next week.

    Lots of talk of historical wars being affected by freezing temperatures but I’d guess heatwaves could be a big problem too. Perhaps one advantage of trenches.

    American (and most western) armoured vehicles have air conditioning. This isn’t just for comfort - but also humidity control and part of NBC capability.
    Some quite impressive temperature contrasts next week too. Look at this next Saturday:



    10C in Salzburg, 40C in Bratislava. 3.5 hour drive on Google maps (or 2.5 hours from Linz where it’ll be 13C).
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:

    Now that I didn't expect.

    Good morning! Looks like #UFO whistleblower Bob Lazar was a pimp (helped operate a “high-tech whorehouse”). Convicted.

    That’s out of this world!

    https://twitter.com/RepRiggleman/status/1684922913651412992

    Is he old enough to have had a . . . err . . . hand, in that interstellar cinematic classic, "Flesh Gordon"?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Into the low 40s Celsius all along the front line in Ukraine next week.

    Lots of talk of historical wars being affected by freezing temperatures but I’d guess heatwaves could be a big problem too. Perhaps one advantage of trenches.

    American (and most western) armoured vehicles have air conditioning. This isn’t just for comfort - but also humidity control and part of NBC capability.
    Some quite impressive temperature contrasts next week too. Look at this next Saturday:



    10C in Salzburg, 40C in Bratislava. 3.5 hour drive on Google maps (or 2.5 hours from Linz where it’ll be 13C).
    Scorchio for me, if I am still in the YOOK
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    I'm starting to hate Todd Murphy.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,745

    Omnium said:

    The Telegraph has "Dame Alison Rose was a ‘great leader’ forced out by politics, says NatWest chairman"

    Ridiculous.

    NU10K - she needs (and deserves, in that system) a better job.

    Look out for the glossy magazine interview. All about her hurt and how being a woman has held her back.
    People wonder why the UK equity market underperforms. All these useless and untouchable women. Quite mad!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    ydoethur said:

    I'm starting to hate Todd Murphy.

    Significant first innings lead looks nailed on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    ydoethur said:

    I'm starting to hate Todd Murphy.

    Who had never before hit a 6 in professional cricket.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    I'm starting to hate Todd Murphy.

    Who had never before hit a 6 in professional cricket.
    Now he just looks like a compulsive hooker.

    But whatever he is, he's screwed England.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,774
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    I'm starting to hate Todd Murphy.

    Significant first innings lead looks nailed on.
    But presumably Smudge won’t bat the second time around. Spirit of cricket and all that.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Why on earth do we get stuck so often when the opposition are 8 wickets down???
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,774
    This is looking so easy. Need Broad back. Really missing Mooen.
    And Broad Ieaves the field.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,774
    Jimmy bowling at 79mph. Just won’t do.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Greetings from IAH.

    MSNBC: Trump, Trump, Trump

    Fox: Hunter, Hunter, Hunter

    Balanced news coverage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    edited July 2023
    DavidL said:

    This is looking so easy. Need Broad back. Really missing Mooen.
    And Broad Ieaves the field.

    Seamers have all bowled more than 20 overs.
    We're really missing Moeen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    DavidL said:

    Jimmy bowling at 79mph. Just won’t do.

    Wood was down at 82mph.
    Not having a spinner will do that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    "Where is Ben Stokes' spin to give the seamers a rest and catch the Aussies out?
    Gary Marlborough"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/64959413
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529

    Greetings from IAH.

    MSNBC: Trump, Trump, Trump

    Fox: Hunter, Hunter, Hunter

    Balanced news coverage.

    Americans haven't learnt any lessons from the last 8 years then.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    edited July 2023
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The Telegraph has "Dame Alison Rose was a ‘great leader’ forced out by politics, says NatWest chairman"

    Ridiculous.

    NU10K - she needs (and deserves, in that system) a better job.

    Look out for the glossy magazine interview. All about her hurt and how being a woman has held her back.
    People wonder why the UK equity market underperforms. All these useless and untouchable women. Quite mad!
    That’s bigoted.

    “All these useless and untouchable men/women/animals/vegetables/minerals”

    That’s better

    The problem is not affirmative action - it’s that the black lesbian narwhals are just as crap as the fat white men. The flip side of equality.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    The service is fricking terrible tho. What’s the problem. Not like there’s a war on
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    edited July 2023
    Leon said:

    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


    For some reason I’m reminded of the occasion some of us took a middle aged banker to the Sense bar in Sofia. By accident it was International Women’s Day, which they celebrate, in Bulgaria, in a big way.

    He was reduced to gibbering. Jaw on the floor etc…
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited July 2023
    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    Woakes is one of England’s most underrated players.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    One feature is the way that the omertà works. The Senior Management Team make sure that the people at the bottom believe

    1) that if a senior person goes down, everyone below them will go down as well.
    2) that any junior person who gives evidence against a senior will have their career fucked. Further, if they try and change careers, the Right People will make sure that the lack mark follows them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,482
    Interesting development in Canada.

    In response to the new Government 'Online News Act' both Meta (Facebook and Instagram) and Google will no longer show content from or provide links to any sites which contain news content.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    edited July 2023
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    j

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *no actual lessons may or may not be learned.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,316
    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    It doesn't come from nowhere. The way in which tabloids dehumanise people is a factor. We see it also in the way we often talk about the political opposition on here too. It strips away empathy and allows ordinary people to do inhumane things.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162

    Leon said:

    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


    For some reason I’m reminded of the occasion some of us took a middle aged banker to the Sense bar in Sofia. By accident it was International Women’s Day, which they celebrate, in Bulgaria, in a big way.

    He was reduced to gibbering. Jaw on the floor etc…
    There must be some genetic explanation for the beauty of Eastern European women. Montenegro is also astonishing. Tho I would argue that Ukraine is probably Peak Slavic Beauty

    They have a lot of pure Viking blood. Hence the cheekbones? And blondes? Yet they are much more striking than Scandi women. In a different league

    Also you get quite a few dark haired but fair skinned women, equally striking. Persian, Armenian and Circassian bloodlines? Either way it is a bewitching alchemy

    The men are not nearly as handsome as the women are lovely

    Perhaps it is God’s way of apologizing to Ukraine for all the horrible history
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    About 30 overs haven't been bowled in this match so far that should have been by the end of day two.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    It doesn't come from nowhere. The way in which tabloids dehumanise people is a factor. We see it also in the way we often talk about the political opposition on here too. It strips away empathy and allows ordinary people to do inhumane things.
    It’s an institutional problem - the same shit has happened over the centuries, many times.

    Jobsworthism. “I filled out all the forms”
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,028
    edited July 2023
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
    Tropic Thunder is now apparently “problematic” due to Robert Downie Junior in black-face even though the point of him in black face is so over the top ridiculous to mock method acting and the idea that a white man can understand the reality of a black man in Vietnam and therefore is patently an anti-racism stance.
    I think it's more accurate to say that somebody on the internet said it was problematic. Ben Stiller laughed it off, refused to apologise (that bit's important: never apologise) and after a few days the DISCOURSE WAS NOT UPSET and went off to bitching about something else. It's now only ever introduced by people making a point about woke.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    It doesn't come from nowhere. The way in which tabloids dehumanise people is a factor. We see it also in the way we often talk about the political opposition on here too. It strips away empathy and allows ordinary people to do inhumane things.
    Yes. But what a prison does is what the state does. The state allows tabloid newspapers and freedom of speech. But the state does not stand in amoral relation to cruelty and wickedness or it would not pass laws against it.

    We might have some comprehension of why the state system may give Ian Huntley or Thomas Cashman a hard time, without agreeing with it. We are speaking here of a dead baby.

    What happened here would be criminal negligence if done by some idiot teenage male partner.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,806
    edited July 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Woakes is one of England’s most underrated players.

    Only gets into the side by the end of the English summer.
    Does well.
    Plays badly overseas for half a series.
    Dropped until second half of English summer.
    Repeat.

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    All to play for tomorrow. 2-2 could still be on.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,347
    Leon said:

    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


    The quality of women in Eastern Europe is simple exceptional.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    edited July 2023
    viewcode said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:
    Well, he's got a point about ethnic casting although whether Baddiel is best placed to make it in light of his Fantasy Football exploits is another question. But in this particular instance, Baddiel is in danger of arguing they should have made a quite different film focussing on Oppenheimer's Jewish background, in which case a Jewish actor might have been more important, perhaps an atheist too. The reason Oppenheimer was (arguably) persecuted was because of his politics and humanity, not his religion or ethnicity.
    Teller was also an agnostic of Jewish origins - and was decidedly not persecuted in the same way.
    The greatest intellect of them all - von Neumann - ditto.

    But I do think Baddiel has a point, not just about the casting but possibly the movie too, if it ignores the cultural background of the protagonists.
    (I have yet to watch it.)
    Honestly, representation on stage and screen is a difficult issue full of grey areas. Do I think, as Michael Sheen suggested the other day, that Welsh parts should go to Welsh actors only? No.

    Do I think that actors with actual disabilities should have as much chance to play characters with disabilities? Yes, I do. Equally, do I think movies and TV would put a little more thought in casting non-white people to non-white roles (Hollywood has a long track record of casting people as 'generic brown' to represent a whole gamut of ethnicities)? Yes, also.

    It's hard to deal in absolutes here. I think it comes down to a couple of things: representation and authenticity, and is not (or should not be) about essentialism. Can a cisgender person authentically play a trans character? Yes, I think so - but is it fair that all that trans roles go to non-trans actors? No. Ditto Jewish characters. So he does have a point, but I don't agree entirely.
    Yes, I've tried to formulate 'rules' (for myself) on this but failed. It all depends on the role and the context of the role in the story. I do think it's good that it's thought about now rather than just saying 'it's acting dear boy'.
    It's acting dear boy because as you have discovered, there are no rules so think away to no fruitful end, not that such endeavour would be a huge change for you, that said. Cracking Wimbledon tips, on the other hand, you're great at sports analysis.
    There are two distinct arguments. The fairness in job opportunities one (most obviously with disabled actors playing disabled parts), and the question of realistic representation. The latter is more about acting dear boy. The former is I think important in certain parts of the film and theatre world and less so in others.
    Yep, and even with the latter it's not *just* about acting ability. Eg Hugh Grant was great as Jeremy Thorpe but you couldn't cast him as Golda Meir. Or rather you could - there's no law against it - but expect a backlash if you do and it'd be wholly merited imo.
    As per my post to @Richard_Tyndall where do you stand on Michael Balogun playing a white Jewish Lehman brother?
    That sounds ok and I'll take your word that it was. Hugh Grant as Golda Meir however - different story. I think I'd struggle with that. He could act it up a storm but still, no. Not for me.
    Tropic Thunder is now apparently “problematic” due to Robert Downie Junior in black-face even though the point of him in black face is so over the top ridiculous to mock method acting and the idea that a white man can understand the reality of a black man in Vietnam and therefore is patently an anti-racism stance.
    I think it's more accurate to say that somebody on the internet said it was problematic. Ben Stiller laughed it off, refused to apologise (that bit's important: never apologise) and after a few days the DISCOURSE WAS NOT UPSET and went off to bitching about something else. It's now only ever introduced by people making a point about woke.
    Plus, I believe, some actual black people said that Tropic Thunder did black face exactly right. And that those who had a problem with it didn’t understand why blackface is/was a problem.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    "Only one prison officer, who didn’t even do anything wrong, said sorry to me directly."

    That sounds 100% true. The guilty have no conscience. It's the innocent who have one.

    See also that the SS had promised to capture the baby at birth. Subsequent events suggest the baby wasn't considered "Ideal Adoption Material". There should be an international-sized scandal about what the SS do in Britain, and secret family courts (don't speak to a journalist about what happened in one of them - they'll lock you up if you do) and the way that thousands of women are labelled unfit to breed... Don't expect the tabloids or the "quality" press in the country to say anything though - any more than they've been kicking up a fuss about the trafficking - oh, I mean "disappearance" - of unaccompanied child refugees in Brighton.

    For FOUR YEARS the authorities seem to have been disciplinarily investigating the screw who received her call for medical help and ignored it. I wonder what details they're investigating?

    Recommended: a film called "Traffic" made in 2014 and another called "Traffic 2" made in 2017.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,347

    All to play for tomorrow. 2-2 could still be on.

    We could have won the series were it not for the rain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    j

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *no actual lessons may or may not be learned.
    Those exact words were used when trying to excuse the GMP wrongful conviction case.
    I don’t think they meant ‘don’t deliberately frame innocent people’ as the lesson.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    It doesn't come from nowhere. The way in which tabloids dehumanise people is a factor. We see it also in the way we often talk about the political opposition on here too. It strips away empathy and allows ordinary people to do inhumane things.
    It’s an institutional problem - the same shit has happened over the centuries, many times.

    Jobsworthism. “I filled out all the forms”
    Think of the stories around the Roman soldiers at Calvary. Parables about jobsworthism, mostly.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    All to play for tomorrow. 2-2 could still be on.

    We could have won the series were it not for the rain.
    Or if we had managed to get them out in the last innings of the first Test bearing in mind that they were 8 down with around 50 still to get!!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    Cracking catch by Stokes.
    I’d actually have settled for a 12 run lead at start of play - as, I guess, might have England.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    j

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *no actual lessons may or may not be learned.
    Those exact words were used when trying to excuse the GMP wrongful conviction case.
    I don’t think they meant ‘don’t deliberately frame innocent people’ as the lesson.
    That’s code for nothing will change

    It’s like a Masonic handshake in the NU10K. Anyone trying to do anything further will be labelled “vindictive” - that’s the party line.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,331
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    ‘Lessons will be learned’, those responsible stay in post and it will just continue to happen.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,823
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795

    Leon said:

    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


    The quality of women in Eastern Europe is simple exceptional.
    "I'm not in Lvov
    So don't forget it
    It's just a silly phase I'm going through"
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,795
    HYUFD said:
    Boris is yesterday's model, ready for the scrap-heap!
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    It doesn't come from nowhere. The way in which tabloids dehumanise people is a factor. We see it also in the way we often talk about the political opposition on here too. It strips away empathy and allows ordinary people to do inhumane things.
    It’s an institutional problem - the same shit has happened over the centuries, many times.

    Jobsworthism. “I filled out all the forms”
    Rape has happened a lot too.

    Also before say 1850 it's not as if the state as an institution that employs millions of officials was anything like what it is today.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    Peck said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    "Only one prison officer, who didn’t even do anything wrong, said sorry to me directly."

    That sounds 100% true. The guilty have no conscience. It's the innocent who have one.

    See also that the SS had promised to capture the baby at birth. Subsequent events suggest the baby wasn't considered "Ideal Adoption Material". There should be an international-sized scandal about what the SS do in Britain, and secret family courts (don't speak to a journalist about what happened in one of them - they'll lock you up if you do) and the way that thousands of women are labelled unfit to breed... Don't expect the tabloids or the "quality" press in the country to say anything though - any more than they've been kicking up a fuss about the trafficking - oh, I mean "disappearance" - of unaccompanied child refugees in Brighton.

    For FOUR YEARS the authorities seem to have been disciplinarily investigating the screw who received her call for medical help and ignored it. I wonder what details they're investigating?

    Recommended: a film called "Traffic" made in 2014 and another called "Traffic 2" made in 2017.
    From an earlier post. Would you think that an unaccompanied minor immigrant would be better off

    1) in a repurposed country hotel.
    2) in the care of social services.

    I once suggested to the then Home Sec. that the correct response to the smug “we are untouchable because we have destroyed the records” from some at Rotherham demanded this response - put those in charge on the sex offenders registers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162

    Leon said:

    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


    The quality of women in Eastern Europe is simple exceptional.
    Don’t you have a Bulgarian wife? Nicely done

    Yes it is exceptional. Ukraine is maybe where it crosses from exceptional to ridiculous

    I’m sitting here (honestly trying not to perv, like a sad old knapper) yet the last 6 women to come into the restaurant have been absolutely gorgeous. They also REALLY dress up. Hair perfect, nails perfect, everyone is slim, etc

    To get the equivalent in the west you’d have to go to London, NYC or Paris, as I say

    Yet this is a smallish provincial city with poor people and a university. The equivalent in the UK might be Norwich
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    j

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *no actual lessons may or may not be learned.
    Those exact words were used when trying to excuse the GMP wrongful conviction case.
    I don’t think they meant ‘don’t deliberately frame innocent people’ as the lesson.
    That’s code for nothing will change

    It’s like a Masonic handshake in the NU10K. Anyone trying to do anything further will be labelled “vindictive” - that’s the party line.
    I laughed when I heard it on R4.
    It was so patently insincere.

    They deliberately (IMO, on the reporting of the case) imprisoned - and kept imprisoned for nearly two decades - an innocent man.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    ‘Lessons will be learned’, those responsible stay in post and it will just continue to happen.
    Of course. Anything else would be “bullying”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,129
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    This, from the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/28/serious-failings-contributed-to-babys-death-in-12-hour-lone-prison-birth

    The usual will be said about lessons, failings, training, procedures and recommendations. It will all be untrue because what this involves is cruelty and murderousness wickedness. This does not happen by accident.

    As with the GMP wrongful conviction, it will be ‘mistakes were made’.
    In the GMP case it seems to me utterly deliberate; the prison case is perhaps one of they just didn’t give a damn. Which is different, but equally bad.
    j

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *no actual lessons may or may not be learned.
    Those exact words were used when trying to excuse the GMP wrongful conviction case.
    I don’t think they meant ‘don’t deliberately frame innocent people’ as the lesson.
    That’s code for nothing will change

    It’s like a Masonic handshake in the NU10K. Anyone trying to do anything further will be labelled “vindictive” - that’s the party line.
    I laughed when I heard it on R4.
    It was so patently insincere.

    They deliberately (IMO, on the reporting of the case) imprisoned - and kept imprisoned for nearly two decades - an innocent man.
    But why not do that?

    Letting him out was admission of a problem. To do so before 2 decades have passed risked promotions and better jobs not happening for those involved.

    Have you no compassion?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,941
    Great to see a coach party of Miss World judges from the 1970s has dropped by.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,987
    BBC Sport

    Juventus have been kicked out of this season's Europa Conference League by Uefa and fined for breaching Financial Fair Play (FFP) rules.

    European football's governing body has also fined Chelsea for breaching FFP rules as a result of "submitting incomplete financial information".

    Uefa says the matter relates to transactions which took place between 2012 and 2019.

    Juventus have been fined £17.14m, while Chelsea have been fined £8.57m.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,974
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This place. It’s a deeply provincial city in a seriously poor country. Albeit with a biggish university

    The beauty of the women is like a highly fashionable bar in Shoreditch or Brooklyn or Le Marais


    The quality of women in Eastern Europe is simple exceptional.
    Don’t you have a Bulgarian wife? Nicely done

    Yes it is exceptional. Ukraine is maybe where it crosses from exceptional to ridiculous

    I’m sitting here (honestly trying not to perv, like a sad old knapper)
    Fail.
This discussion has been closed.