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Now I am become Death, the destroyer of political parties – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Absolutely. This snivelling wretch for example.




    I like Dan Hannan. But that article does him no favours, in context. I noticed it earlier and winced. Tone-deaf
    I hold no brief for Daniel Hannan (or Vorbis as I used to call him) but if we are to judge his text it would be better to read it first. You can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20230722223522/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/britain-is-now-a-poor-nation-this-is-our-number-one-issue/
    I’ve read it. As discussed on here ad nauseam, I reject the premise. Life is worse for the average person in Mississippi than it is in the UK

    For a start, they die much younger. It doesn’t get more stark than that. They are much more likely to be shot dead. And so on

    Britain has multiple problems but “being outpaced” by Mississippi is not one of them. Nor do any of our national problems reallt deserve the title “crisis” - not when you look at somewhere like Ukraine
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,143
    edited July 2023
    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,143

    Things are going well in the UK I see.


    Don't believe the exaggerations of newspapers headlines.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,284

    Things are going well in the UK I see.


    When will they rebrand Brexit as Brokesit?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Is it just lefty issues that are rendered trivial by the grand perspective that war brings?
    The left has the greater tendency to whine these days. Or at least their whining is more audible. Woke is just one long whine about “unfairness” in essence

    But yes, the right can be equally wanky. That article
    from Dan Hannan is a case in point
    Have you read it?

    It basically says “we are slipping and no one is thinking about how to stop it”

    A bit limited may be, but not especially “wanky”
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Absolutely. This snivelling wretch for example.




    I like Dan Hannan. But that article does him no favours, in context. I noticed it earlier and winced. Tone-deaf
    I hold no brief for Daniel Hannan (or Vorbis as I used to call him) but if we are to judge his text it would be better to read it first. You can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20230722223522/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/britain-is-now-a-poor-nation-this-is-our-number-one-issue/
    I’ve read it. As discussed on here ad nauseam, I reject the premise. Life is worse for the average person in Mississippi than it is in the UK

    For a start, they die much younger. It doesn’t get more stark than that. They are much more likely to be shot dead. And so on

    Britain has multiple problems but “being outpaced” by Mississippi is not one of them. Nor do any of our national problems reallt deserve the title “crisis” - not when you look at somewhere like Ukraine
    The UK’s standard of living is similar to that in France and Japan.

    The idea that France and Japan are worse off than Mississippi would be laughed out of court.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,187
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Absolutely. This snivelling wretch for example.




    I like Dan Hannan. But that article does him no favours, in context. I noticed it earlier and winced. Tone-deaf
    I hold no brief for Daniel Hannan (or Vorbis as I used to call him) but if we are to judge his text it would be better to read it first. You can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20230722223522/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/britain-is-now-a-poor-nation-this-is-our-number-one-issue/
    Yes, the actual piece bears little resemblance to the headline. It says more about the Telegraph fishing for clicks, than about Hannan.
    It's not a bad piece at all

  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,688
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble
    Gosh you're turning into a new Hemmingway! But please be careful when you go to the frontline. Bullets and bombs are no respecters of literary talent.
    Pedant note. Hemingway surely. Hemmingway with 'mm' is used by PG Wodehouse in a short story.

  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,872

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    What's wrong with a low rise block of flats?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    Scott_xP said:

    Things are going well in the UK I see.


    When will they rebrand Brexit as Brokesit?
    Hilariously, that recent piece in ConHome about Rishi’s reshuffle tipped a possible return to Cabinet for Liam Fox.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    Purging the reprobates means shutting up shop, though.

    There are next to no “un-reprobates” left.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    Andy_JS said:

    Things are going well in the UK I see.


    Don't believe the exaggerations of newspapers headlines.
    This is from the Telegraph, not a newspaper.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,551

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    That's what Labour said in 2010, and what the Tories said in 1997, and indeed what Labour said in 1979.

    The Tories might be back in one parliament. But recent trends are against them in that regard.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Absolutely. This snivelling wretch for example.




    I like Dan Hannan. But that article does him no favours, in context. I noticed it earlier and winced. Tone-deaf
    I hold no brief for Daniel Hannan (or Vorbis as I used to call him) but if we are to judge his text it would be better to read it first. You can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20230722223522/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/britain-is-now-a-poor-nation-this-is-our-number-one-issue/
    Yes, the actual piece bears little resemblance to the headline. It says more about the Telegraph fishing for clicks, than about Hannan.
    Whilst that might be true, if Hannan was unhappy with the title he could either try and get it changed or write for another rag.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    @Miklosvar has a point on Rhodes. This does not sound “normal”

    “Greece mounted its largest-ever island evacuation this weekend, moving close to 19,000 people on Rhodes to escape wildfires that have prompted some tour operators to cancel flights to the popular destination.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/9c67eb16-931b-462c-9174-32245725da07

    It sounds abnormal - and downright scary.
    Exactly what the media outlets want you to think, what worries is the implication swallowed by some that the entire island indeed most of southern Europe is currently engulfed in the same. Not true. I live in the SE of Spain near the coast. Currently packing in the Madrilenos et al from the mesetas as in every summer to escape the normal summer heat. We've had the odd hot day in 10 hovering in the high 30s caused by Saharan air masses. That is expected to dissipate after tomorrow and we return to 32/24 for the next 10 days. PS we have had no fires here at all this year - despite , as always the ground and the scrub being tinder dry. Currently 32 degrees here with my pool a refreshing 28.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,217
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Is it just lefty issues that are rendered trivial by the grand perspective that war brings?
    The left has the greater tendency to whine these days. Or at least their whining is more audible. Woke is just one long whine about “unfairness” in essence

    But yes, the right can be equally wanky. That article
    from Dan Hannan is a case in point
    There has been a war going on somewhere in the world at all times since WW2, I would imagine. It doesn't mean we shouldn't complain about things that aren't great here.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    You don’t know anything about Japan.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Absolutely. This snivelling wretch for example.




    I like Dan Hannan. But that article does him no favours, in context. I noticed it earlier and winced. Tone-deaf
    I hold no brief for Daniel Hannan (or Vorbis as I used to call him) but if we are to judge his text it would be better to read it first. You can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20230722223522/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/britain-is-now-a-poor-nation-this-is-our-number-one-issue/
    I’ve read it. As discussed on here ad nauseam, I reject the premise. Life is worse for the average person in Mississippi than it is in the UK

    For a start, they die much younger. It doesn’t get more stark than that. They are much more likely to be shot dead. And so on

    Britain has multiple problems but “being outpaced” by Mississippi is not one of them. Nor do any of our national problems reallt deserve the title “crisis” - not when you look at somewhere like Ukraine
    The UK’s standard of living is similar to that in France and Japan.

    The idea that France and Japan are worse off than Mississippi would be laughed out of court.
    To be fair to Hannan he still says we are wealthier than the global average but it is the US and Eastern EU nations we are falling behind. While our wages are in relative decline and our worker productivity is falling as he says our property prices, especially in the South are very high
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited July 2023

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    It is clear that I was referring to individual MPs being powerless on specific decisions - it doesnt make a blind bit of difference if the local MP says they like or dislike an application. Their collective failure to act is a given - Boris made an attempt, and halted at the first hurdle, and Rishi has not acted at all, other than to verbally give the green light to Nimby veto.

    You don't even need to go as far as Japan.

    And the counter is they are just doing what the public wants, but government does things we don't want or care about but still need all the time.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    edited July 2023
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    What's wrong with a low rise block of flats?
    Young people or PAYE-earners might move in.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    You don’t know anything about Japan.
    I’ve lived in Japan. @HYUFD is simply stating the truth. Japan has very different problems to us
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,494
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Is it just lefty issues that are rendered trivial by the grand perspective that war brings?
    The left has the greater tendency to whine these days. Or at least their whining is more audible. Woke is just one long whine about “unfairness” in essence

    But yes, the right can be equally wanky. That article
    from Dan Hannan is a case in point
    Ooo not sure about that. The right are forever moaning, just about different things. Eg is a black Snow White really a bigger problem than the price of basic groceries? Would a visiting Alien think so? I reckon not.

    Stripping bias out of it you're right. Ukraine makes our cares look flimsy. But given so much of the world lives in penury or under political repression this is always true.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,217

    Are we supposed to be thankful that the UK is not as bad as in a country that it literally at war and under bombardment by a neighbour?

    I agree that the quality of life in the UK is likely better than Mississippi but that is literally taking the US’s most backward state as a comparator.

    When did the dessicated right become so unambitious for the UK?

    Where does Dan Hannan, the man who advocated a policy that's materially reduced our GDP, get off complaining that we are becoming a poor country? What a knob.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    You don’t know anything about Japan.
    I’ve lived in Japan. @HYUFD is simply stating the truth. Japan has very different problems to us
    HYUFD is (probably deliberately) missing the point of Barty’s post.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,692
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    Are we supposed to be thankful that the UK is not as bad as in a country that it literally at war and under bombardment by a neighbour?

    I agree that the quality of life in the UK is likely better than Mississippi but that is literally taking the US’s most backward state as a comparator.

    When did the dessicated right become so unambitious for the UK?

    Strikingly like when some people say we should be thankful not to live in a repressive dictatorship.

    Indeed I am, but that's kind of my base level expectation considering we haven't been that for a long time. The government doesn't get brownie points for nor turning into North Korea.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223
    Cookie said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    That's what Labour said in 2010, and what the Tories said in 1997, and indeed what Labour said in 1979.

    The Tories might be back in one parliament. But recent trends are against them in that regard.
    By 1981 Foot was ahead in the polls, by 2012 Ed Miliband had a big poll lead.

    Hague was unfortunate in New Labour ran the economy relatively well and Major and Clarke left a sound economy. Starmer and Reeves however likely inherit an economy looking more like 1979 or 2010 than 1997 even if Sunak and Hunt are starting to cut inflation
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,427

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    [...]

    Great post.

    (Minus the final sentence about Labour which I've edited out - who knows how they will fare?

    The main thrust of your post is right: the Conservatives need to focus on damage limitation. In some ways the best thing they could do is just get on with it. Call the election for the Spring. Lose gracefully. And be a good Opposition.

    They won't of course. They will go down in bitter nastiness and then all hell will break loose in the party. They will have a horrible internal civil war, lurch to the right under someone like Braverman or Badenoch, lose heavily again, and then but only then come to their senses.

    It's ever thus.

    A decade in Opposition at least.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,494
    So, yet another Verstappen procession and Lewis fails to make the podium from pole. The Ashes washed away by rain. A journeyman American golfer who glories in hunting animals runs away with the Open. There have been better sporting Sundays.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Cookie said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    That's what Labour said in 2010, and what the Tories said in 1997, and indeed what Labour said in 1979.

    The Tories might be back in one parliament. But recent trends are against them in that regard.
    Yes, are we just inclined to give the new lot a longer period now or are the new oppositions more prone to self destructive irrelevance?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,584
    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    Any chance we could airlift some of them this way?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,890

    Are we supposed to be thankful that the UK is not as bad as in a country that it literally at war and under bombardment by a neighbour?

    I agree that the quality of life in the UK is likely better than Mississippi but that is literally taking the US’s most backward state as a comparator.

    When did the dessicated right become so unambitious for the UK?

    Where does Dan Hannan, the man who advocated a policy that's materially reduced our GDP, get off complaining that we are becoming a poor country? What a knob.
    David “Lord” Frost has also tweeted his support of Hannan’s article.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,217

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,217

    Are we supposed to be thankful that the UK is not as bad as in a country that it literally at war and under bombardment by a neighbour?

    I agree that the quality of life in the UK is likely better than Mississippi but that is literally taking the US’s most backward state as a comparator.

    When did the dessicated right become so unambitious for the UK?

    Where does Dan Hannan, the man who advocated a policy that's materially reduced our GDP, get off complaining that we are becoming a poor country? What a knob.
    David “Lord” Frost has also tweeted his support of Hannan’s article.
    Of course he has.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    That's what Labour said in 2010, and what the Tories said in 1997, and indeed what Labour said in 1979.

    The Tories might be back in one parliament. But recent trends are against them in that regard.
    Yes, are we just inclined to give the new lot a longer period now or are the new oppositions more prone to self destructive irrelevance?
    Depends if the government has sorted out the economy by polling day. Heath didn't in 1974 and was out after just 4 years, Callaghan hadn't by 1979 and was out after only 5 years of his party in government
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,217

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Yes the Tories are going to burn the place down, the next election is going to be utterly vile.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited July 2023

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    Much as I love a historical building the level of moaning I see from people who own an 18th century listed cottage or something might argue we should follow suit!

    Still, I rent an end terrace built in the early 50s, and on room size and height it seems to beat out a lot of modern builds.

    Edit: oh, and garden space.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,797

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223
    Andy_JS said:

    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516

    Could be bad for Vox if centrist voters turning out in big numbers to keep them out of government
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
    We should follow the example of Ur?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
    The seller however doesn't
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,797

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    What's wrong with a low rise block of flats?
    Young people or PAYE-earners might move in.
    1) look and feel of the place. Tower blocks dominate the skyline.
    2) more people with identical facilities. Crowding on trains, buses. Longer wait for a GP slot.
    3) might be fuckugly.
    4) light - for example, not far from me, they are building (rebuilding and expanding) a tower on the high street. It will ensure create a shadow for much of the day in a major green space.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,166
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble
    Gosh you're turning into a new Hemmingway! But please be careful when you go to the frontline. Bullets and bombs are no respecters of literary talent.
    Pedant note. Hemingway surely. Hemmingway with 'mm' is used by PG Wodehouse in a short story.

    Hm. Or even "Hmm"... :)
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,166
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516

    Could be bad for Vox if centrist voters turning out in big numbers to keep them out of government
    Or turning out in huge numbers to get them in. We haven't really been following this in any depth... :(
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Lack of council funds to undertake streetscene and election facility maintenance no doubt.

    Oh, you meant something else.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,093
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
    The seller however doesn't
    Thought you were a Tory, a Real Tory? Last time I looked, they believed in the free market.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,288

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Yes the Tories are going to burn the place down, the next election is going to be utterly vile.
    Vile campaigning is in the eye of the beholder.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
    The seller however doesn't
    Thought you were a Tory, a Real Tory? Last time I looked, they believed in the free market.
    Hahaha, good one.

    They might say they believe in it, but that's branding not ideology.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,584

    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    Are we supposed to be thankful that the UK is not as bad as in a country that it literally at war and under bombardment by a neighbour?

    I agree that the quality of life in the UK is likely better than Mississippi but that is literally taking the US’s most backward state as a comparator.

    When did the dessicated right become so unambitious for the UK?

    Where does Dan Hannan, the man who advocated a policy that's materially reduced our GDP, get off complaining that we are becoming a poor country? What a knob.
    David “Lord” Frost has also tweeted his support of Hannan’s article.
    Has someone ever finagled so much political attention for so little justification?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    DeSantis descending further into the ranks of the no hopers and neverTrumpers.

    At this rate he might not even win the 'I'm the backup if Trump dies or goes to prison' contest.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,688
    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    I hope the Tories lose this time, giving them time to recover that by the 2028/9 election there are maybe two reasonably thoughtful non extreme parties capable of forming a government that isn't an embarrassment. Labour are the only possibility in that box at the moment.

    As the Tories have no friends, to win and govern they have to win fairly big. Unless they get very close to 320 seats they are not forming a government. If they win it can only be because a significant plurality of voters want them to.

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,494
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    @Miklosvar has a point on Rhodes. This does not sound “normal”

    “Greece mounted its largest-ever island evacuation this weekend, moving close to 19,000 people on Rhodes to escape wildfires that have prompted some tour operators to cancel flights to the popular destination.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/9c67eb16-931b-462c-9174-32245725da07

    It sounds abnormal - and downright scary.
    Exactly what the media outlets want you to think, what worries is the implication swallowed by some that the entire island indeed most of southern Europe is currently engulfed in the same. Not true. I live in the SE of Spain near the coast. Currently packing in the Madrilenos et al from the mesetas as in every summer to escape the normal summer heat. We've had the odd hot day in 10 hovering in the high 30s caused by Saharan air masses. That is expected to dissipate after tomorrow and we return to 32/24 for the next 10 days. PS we have had no fires here at all this year - despite , as always the ground and the scrub being tinder dry. Currently 32 degrees here with my pool a refreshing 28.
    Well I wasn't assuming the whole continent was on fire. But, yes, of course the media won't underplay stories like this in places where Brits have holidays. I do hope you're not succumbing to a 'the climate crisis is a confected nonsense' mindset though. That would never do.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Yes the Tories are going to burn the place down, the next election is going to be utterly vile.
    Vile campaigning is in the eye of the beholder.
    I think an objective level can be reached. One characterised by vicious attacks, loose attitude to facts (even by campaigning standards), that sort of thing.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    .


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    I don’t think he’ll win, but Ramaswamy is going to be one to watch. He’s been doing a lot of interviews and podcasts, two hours at a time rather than the seven minute cable news soundbite. He’s a lot of very interesting policy ideas, including to take a serious axe to the ‘permanent bureaucracy’ in Washington.

    Here’s a good podcast from the other day:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=5fhitoVUECE
    Warning: for those of an atheist disposition, this podcast contains religions themes and discussions throughout.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,143
    Interesting article.

    "How David Bowie predicted the trans movement
    His 1995 album, Outside, gave us a chillingly accurate foretaste of the contemporary cult of gender."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/23/how-david-bowie-predicted-the-trans-movement/
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    Christie surging there as is Scott. Trump down even more than DeSantis
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Yes the Tories are going to burn the place down, the next election is going to be utterly vile.
    I doubt that it will be as vile as Momentum's social-media attacks on Theresa May.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,990
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble

    We’re not all complaining; some of us are just working harder

    Im having my first day off in ten, and my second in nineteen. Monday to Saturday I worked sixty two hours

    Im making dinner for my parents tonight, the lamb and rhubarb stew with rice and an Ottolenghi cucumber salad. Waitrose ran out of rhubarb; I happened to see a neighbour on the way back who directed me to their allotment half filled with overgrown rhubarb!
    That’s a hard job. Respect

    I’m thinking more of the guardian front page mindset. Which is endless headlines whinging about this that and the next. From racist flower arranging to our “practically fascist government” to the catastrophic lack of kindergarten slots in
    Yorkshire

    It’s all so spineless and dreary and lifeless and enfeebled.

    And how dare we call it a “cost of living CRISIS”. 50p on eggs at Aldi is not a frigging crisis. 10,000 young men dead is a crisis. We have debased the language of alarm
    Absolutely. This snivelling wretch for example.




    I like Dan Hannan. But that article does him no favours, in context. I noticed it earlier and winced. Tone-deaf
    I hold no brief for Daniel Hannan (or Vorbis as I used to call him) but if we are to judge his text it would be better to read it first. You can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20230722223522/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/22/britain-is-now-a-poor-nation-this-is-our-number-one-issue/
    I’ve read it. As discussed on here ad nauseam, I reject the premise. Life is worse for the average person in Mississippi than it is in the UK

    For a start, they die much younger. It doesn’t get more stark than that. They are much more likely to be shot dead. And so on

    Britain has multiple problems but “being outpaced” by Mississippi is not one of them. Nor do any of our national problems reallt deserve the title “crisis” - not when you look at somewhere like Ukraine
    The UK’s standard of living is similar to that in France and Japan.

    The idea that France and Japan are worse off than Mississippi would be laughed out of court.
    Things look shit. Those on the right cannot put this down to 13 years of Tory misrule, so they favour a narrative of decline instead. It’s not the fault of their policies, it’s the fault of the country.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,143
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516

    Could be bad for Vox if centrist voters turning out in big numbers to keep them out of government
    It'll probably reduce their influence in a coalition, but they'll still likely be in it.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,990


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    So maybe Trump’s legal problems are having an impact?

    Good to see the saner parts of the Republican Party doing better,
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,494
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Old Lviv is ridiculously lovely. Like a kind of Ruthenian Florence. But with more wounded men and sandbags

    Ukrainians are not going to give up unless Putin kills them all

    Did you need any special visa to cross the border?
    No. Nothing at all

    I actually have Press Accreditation from the Ukrainian army - meaning I can break curfew and go to combat zones (huzzah!) - but you don’t need anything at all. Just a UK passport and patience in dealing with transport delays. Book trains days ahead and arrive early etc

    Expect cancellations. Factor in flexibility

    I absolutely recommend any PBer to come. Bear witness. And lviv is incredible

    It’s quite tough as well. All the wounded men



    But jeez it puts everything in perspective. What the fuck are we moaning about in the UK? Cost of living crisis? Food banks? What a load of pathetic whining. We have grown fat and feeble
    Gosh you're turning into a new Hemmingway! But please be careful when you go to the frontline. Bullets and bombs are no respecters of literary talent.
    Pedant note. Hemingway surely. Hemmingway with 'mm' is used by PG Wodehouse in a short story.
    Ah well is the PGW one an alcoholic American novelist with a spare prose style and a taste for war and machismo to counter his gender confusion? If so, my post stands with no edit required.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,288
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Yes the Tories are going to burn the place down, the next election is going to be utterly vile.
    Vile campaigning is in the eye of the beholder.
    I think an objective level can be reached. One characterised by vicious attacks, loose attitude to facts (even by campaigning standards), that sort of thing.
    Kinnock's famous "I warn you..." speech could be considered vile because it consisted of fact-free scaremongering. It even included a line about people being "locked up" in their homes.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    HYUFD said:


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    Christie surging there as is Scott. Trump down even more than DeSantis
    I think Christie could be the dark horse in this race, if the Trump and DeSantis campaigns manage to eat each other.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725
    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    Christie surging there as is Scott. Trump down even more than DeSantis
    I think Christie could be the dark horse in this race, if the Trump and DeSantis campaigns manage to eat each other.
    He seems genuinely angry he fell for Trump's bullshit after he won. Most others simply converted or pretended to and still do.

    The loudest voices against Trump otherwise seem to be mostly those who worked with him, which must privately give some GOP figures pause.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
    The seller however doesn't
    Thought you were a Tory, a Real Tory? Last time I looked, they believed in the free market.
    The Tories were originally the party of the landed gentry more than the merchant classes. Indeed under Baldwin, the Chamberlains, Derby and Disraeli the Conservatives were protectionist and pro tariffs while the Liberals were the party of free trade.

    Anyway producing more houses than needed is as bad as producing too few new houses
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,093
    edited July 2023
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/23/like-a-stalag-locals-condemn-asylum-seeker-housing-on-essex-air-base

    Stalag Wethersfield doesn't seem likely to get the Daily Mail Holiday Column treatment that the DM gave the Portland barge. The Graun writer has a nice sense of sequencing, I must say:

    "Officials have covered fencing in the area of the site the asylum seekers are accommodated in with brown tarpaulin.

    A minibus parked at the main gate of the base, which Home Office says can ferry the asylum seekers to Braintree, has blacked-out windows. It seems that the government wants the asylum seekers to be as invisible as possible in this remote place. Rooms in the barracks which were previous occupied by one member of the military with a bed and a desk in them have now been converted to fit in one bunk bed and one single bed so three people are sharing a small room.

    The Home Office has confirmed that one of the new arrivals is in isolation after being diagnosed with highly infectious scabies. The far right have targeted the base with demonstrations against the new arrivals.

    Residents say water and sanitation on the base have never been good and that since the asylum seekers have arrived their water pressure has dropped. They warned the Home Office that the sewage system will not be able to cope with such a large number of people. The Home Office has brought septic tanks on to the site to deal with the sewage."

    Edit: this last is bizarre - it used to be an army base. What must they be intending?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited July 2023
    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,223
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516

    Could be bad for Vox if centrist voters turning out in big numbers to keep them out of government
    It'll probably reduce their influence in a coalition, but they'll still likely be in it.
    Or a PP PSOE grand coalition
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,093
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Why on earth is property so expensive in the UK?


    MPs jumping on NIMBY bandwagons is just a symptom of course. They have no ability to impact a decision, and opposers will be much louder, so it almost always makes sense for them to come out against - if it gets approved they can always blame the local council or an inspector. Being in favour has equally no impact on the decision, and pleases fewer people.
    MPs do have the ability to affect things, they set the f***ing law.

    MPs could and should strip NIMBYs of the right to interfere or have any say at all in what other people do with their own land. As has already been done by MPs in Japan to great success.

    We need Parliament to change the law. Only MPs can do that.
    Japan has much tougher immigration laws than we do, it is extremely difficult to get permanent residence in Japan. Combined with their low birthrate they thus need less new housing
    Forget Japan. It is another country.

    Japan will likely see an excess supply of 10 million dwelling units in 2023, due partly to government housing policy through the 2000s that ignored falling demand caused by a shrinking population. The glut will further aggravate the problem of unoccupied homes, which topped 8.49 million in 2018.
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/More-empty-homes-Japan-s-housing-glut-to-hit-10m-in-2023
    The Japanese housing market is unlike ours in every way. Not least as houses are generally torn down and replaced after 50 years or so.
    The main difference is that they have supply exceeding demand.

    When you do that, the consumer wins. As seen in every market for everything since Ur.
    The seller however doesn't
    Thought you were a Tory, a Real Tory? Last time I looked, they believed in the free market.
    The Tories were originally the party of the landed gentry more than the merchant classes. Indeed under Baldwin, the Chamberlains, Derby and Disraeli the Conservatives were protectionist and pro tariffs while the Liberals were the party of free trade.

    Anyway producing more houses than needed is as bad as producing too few new houses
    Not relevant. You can't pretend to use that as a justification for 2023. This is the 21st century.

    And it's very revealing your instinctive concern is solely with the seller, in a context where many of the houses in question will have been left to middle-aged children of the owner.

    You also forget that some of these spare houses are not up to modern standards of earthquake protection.

    And the huge advantage of too many houses is that everyone gets to live in one. I'd rather it was that way round than your way.

  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,724

    On the Truss episode. The whole thing looking back is one of the weirdest episodes in British politics I’ve seen for some time. And we’ve had a lot of weirdness in the past 8 years.

    Firstly, the only way she could have hoped to ride out the storm (which was already of her own making) would have been to double down, back Kwarteng and tell her critics to stuff it and wait and see the positive results. The problem is that one has to be made of exceptionally strong stuff to be able to do that, when everyone is out to get you, and one has to be a decent communicator. Truss was neither. She liked to think of herself as a latter day Thatcher but she couldn’t hack it. She blinked. And she showed the pressure. And from there it was inevitable the whole thing would collapse.

    Secondly, this all came about because of a highly deranged Tory leadership contest where the issue of tax cuts came out of absolutely nowhere and became the primary issue of the campaign, DESPITE this being pretty low on the list of public priorities. She leaned into this far too much and created a rod for her own back.

    Thirdly Truss was naive to the extreme in thinking the mandate from Tory members gave her mandate to do whatever she liked as PM. Constitutionally maybe, but certainly not in the eyes of the public. She should have spent the time leading up to the next election speaking about and arguing for a pro-growth agenda but recognising that it would need a mandate at the next GE. She could do some small things to “set the groundwork” where possible, but really take the time to actually argue her point rather than go in all guns blazing.

    I am afraid the conclusion I draw from all 3 items above is that, fundamentally, Liz Truss did not have the political skills to be PM and was grossly overpromoted in getting the role. Not up to it. Unfortunately the country suffers as a result.

    Personally have witness (from afar) plenty of British political weirdness over the last 60 years.

    With the Trussterfuq being the weirdest.

    At least struggling at moment, to recall anything weirder. Or Wackier.

  • Options
    DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 712
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516

    Could be bad for Vox if centrist voters turning out in big numbers to keep them out of government
    It'll probably reduce their influence in a coalition, but they'll still likely be in it.
    Or a PP PSOE grand coalition
    I'll be amazed if that happens.

    Also looks like 6pm turnout is now behind Nov 2019.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,787
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Spain election:

    "Posted at 15:5415:54

    More voters turning out for this election than last - so far
    As of 14:00 local time on Sunday (13:00 BST), there was about a 40.5% voter turnout in the snap election, according to Spain's Interior Ministry.

    At the last election in November 2019, that number sat at 37.9% at the same hour.

    The timing of today's vote had been criticised as so many in Spain are on holiday, but the latest turnout figure doesn't include the 2.6 million voters who chose to cast their ballot by post.

    Voters have until 20:00 (or 21:00 in the Canary Islands) to have their say."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66278516

    Could be bad for Vox if centrist voters turning out in big numbers to keep them out of government
    It'll probably reduce their influence in a coalition, but they'll still likely be in it.
    Or a PP PSOE grand coalition
    I would have thought that the Falange would be happier cosying up to Fascists than the democratic centre-left.

    But after your insights in Uxbridge, I will not be dismissing any future HY predictions.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
    I doubt they will get that. The counter offensive is failing. Russia has successfully dug in

    Ukraine simply does not have the manpower to win a war of attrition like this. The alternative is the west provides them with huge super weapons. A seriously capable new air force. That’s not gonna happen

    A Korean style armistice beckons
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
    I doubt they will get that. The counter offensive is failing. Russia has successfully dug in

    Ukraine simply does not have the manpower to win a war of attrition like this. The alternative is the west provides them with huge super weapons. A seriously capable new air force. That’s not gonna happen

    A Korean style armistice beckons
    On the other hand, there’s a good argument that the war is entering the beginning of the end, with Ukraine as the victor.

    Russia have lost 250,000 men, 3,000 tanks, one Crimean bridge, and have now resorted to calling up 70-year-olds and bombing churches.

    So long as the weapons keep flowing to Ukraine, there will be many grateful Ukranians accepting them. The onus is on those supplying the weapons to keep doing so, and the defenders will win if their supply lines remain intact.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,710
    Fucking Manchester weather.

    Match abandoned.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212
    Miklosvar said:

    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    Miklosvar said:

    felix said:

    FPT: Re the heat in Europe



    Miklosvar said:

    In other news, Rhodes gets evacuated

    Wildfires spreading across the Greek island of Rhodes are leaving thousands of tourists in limbo, wondering where they will spend the night

    Meanwhile, holiday companies are cancelling flights to the island. Jet2 has cancelled flights to Rhodes all next week, while TUI stopped flights there until Wednesday

    EasyJet has cancelled package holidays but is still running flights to the island - as are British Airways, Ryanair, and others

    BA customers who are currently in Rhodes on a flight-only booking can change their flight to come back earlier than planned, free of charge, the airline says.

    And anyone flying to Rhodes with BA over the next week can change their flight to a later date, also free of charge.

    As for the BA flight tomorrow - the airline says it will use a larger plane than normal so that it can pick up as many people as possible in Rhodes who want to return to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66282605

    Nothing to see here, happens every year

    Throughout that region and most of the Med yes it does happen each year and it is down to chance mainly the type of areas affected. There may be also an issue as to how well the authorities have planned for fire risks. I live on the edge of Europe's only desert in Almeria - we had some bad fires here back in 2009 but very little of significance since. Each year now a lot of preventive measures are taken and they have rapid responses whenever and however a fire starts. Incidentally there are both the naturally occurring ones and often the larger number set by humans ignoring the rules or just being feckless.

    I'm sure the Greek authorities are thrilled that the entire region now faces boycotts and cancellations while the 10 day forecast is for entirely normal summer temperatures.

    https://www.eltiempo.es/rodas.html

    I doubt the daytime meteorological temperature is at the forefront of anyone's mind while the whole island is on fire 24/7.



    A quick google suggests parts of the south and south east are affected. Although some holiday flights have been cancelled next week Easyjet have not cancelled any of the regular flights. But thank you for your input corporal Jones
    Exactly, a few areas are a bit hotter in an El Nino year and all the hysterical fkucwits are wetting their pants. They have forest fires in these places all the time, it is far from unusual. Just given the grifters a good idea for more scamming.
    Um, I have spent even longer in Greece than you have in the Auchtermuchty drunk tank. It is, how to put this, quite often not on fire.
    UM , you are a fcukwit extrodinaire, full of wind and piss.

  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444
    I believe I was mocked on the last thread for some of my posts implying that the Tories are evil.

    Not all of them. Some of them are. Some of their policies are. And their mission is to harden the hearts of people by weaponising callousness and ignorance.

    Sometimes politics is simply right and wrong. The few remaining Tories seem to have no moral compass at all. Do anything to anyone if the golliwog-lovers will vote for them instead of defecting to Lozza Fox/FarageKIP
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Grr, cricket officially off.

    No more Ashes Tests in Manchester please.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444
    kinabalu said:

    So, yet another Verstappen procession and Lewis fails to make the podium from pole. The Ashes washed away by rain. A journeyman American golfer who glories in hunting animals runs away with the Open. There have been better sporting Sundays.

    Indycar later tonight once again in the heart of marry-your-sister-ville with an absurd number of cars going around an absurdly short oval. With luck Will Power will be reamed again as he was last night, losing the battle to have sex with the victory pig.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,724
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:


    InteractivePolls
    @IAPolls2022
    ·
    4h
    2024 New Hampshire GOP Primary

    Trump 42% (-9 from April)
    DeSantis 15% (-3)
    Christie 8% (+6)
    Scott 8% (+7)
    Ramaswamy 4% (+3)
    Haley 4%
    Burgum 3%
    Pence 2%

    Christie surging there as is Scott. Trump down even more than DeSantis
    I think Christie could be the dark horse in this race, if the Trump and DeSantis campaigns manage to eat each other.
    Maybe. Certainly Big Boys got sufficient stones, in blubber, to suggest positive buoyancy.

    Personally think Nicky Haley is better prospect for GOP 2024 dark horse. Less of a downside than Chris "Bridgegate" Christie, and also less overtly hostile to Sage of Mar-a-Lardo. Which would likely be critical in convincing sufficient pro-Trump delegates to approve, or at least NOT oppose, any Dark Horse nominee.

    Keep your eyes on the First-in-the-Nation 2024 New Hampshire Primary. Where Haley is currently campaigning hard, in the old-school mode that proved critical in 2008 to John McCain's NH victory and subsequent nomination.

    Of course Iowa precinct CAUCUSES will come before NH primary - and the GOPers of the great Hawkeye State are a prime, indeed absolutely critical target, for Ron DeSantis.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,692
    Sandpit said:

    Grr, cricket officially off.

    No more Ashes Tests in Manchester please.

    There's a silver lining for any PBers who backed the draw. I didn't.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,797
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
    I doubt they will get that. The counter offensive is failing. Russia has successfully dug in

    Ukraine simply does not have the manpower to win a war of attrition like this. The alternative is the west provides them with huge super weapons. A seriously capable new air force. That’s not gonna happen

    A Korean style armistice beckons
    On the other hand, there’s a good argument that the war is entering the beginning of the end, with Ukraine as the victor.

    Russia have lost 250,000 men, 3,000 tanks, one Crimean bridge, and have now resorted to calling up 70-year-olds and bombing churches.

    So long as the weapons keep flowing to Ukraine, there will be many grateful Ukranians accepting them. The onus is on those supplying the weapons to keep doing so, and the defenders will win if their supply lines remain intact.
    The Ukrainians are continuing to push forward, slowly. The rate of advance is determined by breaching operations in the minefields and other defences.

    The Russians seem to be seriously nervous about the fact that they *haven’t* stopped the advances. Because they don’t have material to keep on creating new defence lines forever.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212

    Are we supposed to be thankful that the UK is not as bad as in a country that it literally at war and under bombardment by a neighbour?

    I agree that the quality of life in the UK is likely better than Mississippi but that is literally taking the US’s most backward state as a comparator.

    When did the dessicated right become so unambitious for the UK?

    Where does Dan Hannan, the man who advocated a policy that's materially reduced our GDP, get off complaining that we are becoming a poor country? What a knob.
    David “Lord” Frost has also tweeted his support of Hannan’s article.
    So it really is a shit sandwich then
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
    I doubt they will get that. The counter offensive is failing. Russia has successfully dug in

    Ukraine simply does not have the manpower to win a war of attrition like this. The alternative is the west provides them with huge super weapons. A seriously capable new air force. That’s not gonna happen

    A Korean style armistice beckons
    On the other hand, there’s a good argument that the war is entering the beginning of the end, with Ukraine as the victor.

    Russia have lost 250,000 men, 3,000 tanks, one Crimean bridge, and have now resorted to calling up 70-year-olds and bombing churches.

    So long as the weapons keep flowing to Ukraine, there will be many grateful Ukranians accepting them. The onus is on those supplying the weapons to keep doing so, and the defenders will win if their supply lines remain intact.
    How are they going to “win” if they can’t break through Russian defences? As it seems: they can’t

    Meanwhile here in Lviv the men are obviously being broken. The wounded are not hard to spot. Ukraine has a much smaller population than Russia

    I’d love it if Ukraine could smash through the Russian army, take back all of Ukraine pre-2014 and maybe topple Putin such that he is replaced by a peacenik. But I fear this is a fever dream. This is now a war of attrition, and the crude numbers are what they are


  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,229
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
    I doubt they will get that. The counter offensive is failing. Russia has successfully dug in

    Ukraine simply does not have the manpower to win a war of attrition like this. The alternative is the west provides them with huge super weapons. A seriously capable new air force. That’s not gonna happen

    A Korean style armistice beckons
    I'm not sure that's a great analogy.

    This is an invasion. A large part of Ukraine is occupied with Russian troops.

    Remember:: the invasion is usually the easy bit. Then there's the what next?

    Because occupying countries is fucking tough: look at Afghanistan or Northern Ireland. It means that Russia is constantly sending money and young men out west, and for what?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444

    kle4 said:

    The best thing the Tories can do, now, if they can bring themselves to have the discipline to do it, is lose gracefully with honour, purge the reprobates and then rapidly turn their fire on the new incoming Labour administration.

    It will quickly become unpopular.

    I suspect they would rather go super dirty and desperate in a last ditch effort.
    This is going to be the dirtiest election in a very long time me thinks.
    Yes the Tories are going to burn the place down, the next election is going to be utterly vile.
    I doubt that it will be as vile as Momentum's social-media attacks on Theresa May.
    Fixed that for you.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,212
    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    West could do a lot more re weapons, missiles, jets , artillery etc.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725
    edited July 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    Some division always seemed likely. It is a question of backing their resistance so they dont feel pushed into that, which was the plan of Stop the West and fellow travellers. Hopefully they can push back closer to the 2014 lines at least.
    I doubt they will get that. The counter offensive is failing. Russia has successfully dug in

    Ukraine simply does not have the manpower to win a war of attrition like this. The alternative is the west provides them with huge super weapons. A seriously capable new air force. That’s not gonna happen

    A Korean style armistice beckons
    I'm not sure that's a great analogy.

    This is an invasion. A large part of Ukraine is occupied with Russian troops.

    Remember:: the invasion is usually the easy bit. Then there's the what next?

    Because occupying countries is fucking tough: look at Afghanistan or Northern Ireland. It means that Russia is constantly sending money and young men out west, and for what?
    Russia is Russifying the occupied territories very fast. Replacing Ukrainians with apparently loyal
    Russians or “new Russians”

    That’s the plan

    Of course in the long term this is disastrous for Russia as it will face an incredibly hostile Ukraine for generations. And a fifth column of Ukrainians inside Russia who could do anything

    I reckon this ultimately ends with Putin being toppled because of this catastrophic error

    However in the medium term, militarily, I don’t see how either side can win. And that means some sort of ceasefire, inevitably. It won’t be peace. It will be an armistice, a sort of truce: until next time
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,725
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    A rather depressing NYT article on the Ukrainian war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/23/world/europe/weary-soldiersunreliable-munitions-ukraines-many-challenges.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Essentially, it’s a WW1 like stalemate. The Russians have got their act together - and of course it is easier to defend than attack. It’s literal trench warfare, a conflict of attrition - and Russia has more to attrit than Ukraine, tho Ukraine has more motivation to fight than Russia

    I’ve spent the day marvelling at the bravery and endurance of the Ukrainians, but I fear they may have to accept an ugly armistice which divides Ukraine roughly where it is divided now. They can’t afford to kill all their young men, and that is the logical endpoint

    If someone can show me an alternative and superior outcome for Ukraine that would be uplifting. I can’t see it

    West could do a lot more re weapons, missiles, jets , artillery etc.
    But as that NYT article says Ukraine is simply running out of men. Kyiv is now sending 40 year olds - badly trained - to the front line. This is unsustainable

    No amount of weaponry can fix that, I don’t think
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    Re the voting data for the GE in Spain. The figures do not include the postal votes which will be higher this time as the election is taking place in the middle of the main Spanish holiday season. It may be notable however that currently Catalonia is ove 8 points lower than last time. Possibly worse news for the left than the right as PP/VOX get far fewer votes in the Communidad.
This discussion has been closed.