I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.
Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
NHS managers are about 3 percent of the workforce.
Even if you think those numbers are too narrowly drawn, the idea that there are 20% easy cuts is for the birds. As well as pretty insulting to all the people who have made Sophie's Choice cuts rather than harvest all this supposed low hanging fruit.
The public sector has been subjected to real cuts now for 13 years. There really is nothing anywhere left to cut.
You can always find somewhere to cut — maybe the hereditary Lords? — but, yes, indeed. It is an incoherent fantasy that the public sector can be repeatedly cut back without the loss of public services.
Indeed, and the loss of some 'public services' is what we should welcome.
The Government needs to pick some things it currently asks public sector employees to do, which its no longer going to ask them to do. At that point you can have cuts. I have my own ideas, I'm sure others have others.
Simply saying "cuts" without actually cutting anything isn't going to work though.
Putin last year: Ukraine's army should lay down its weapons and greet Russian forces as liberators
Putin today: the prisoners I pardoned so they could join my former caterer's militia should please stop participating in his armed uprising against my defense ministry For those of you new to this media environment. The main sources of info are an army that lies about everything; a warlord who owns an infamous troll factory and lied about it for years; and the Kremlin. And Russia destroyed the media, so there aren't any good independent sources https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1672528720261677056?cxt=HHwWgICw_c6AgrYuAAAA
Wasn't Wagner pretty darn small as an operating force until last year, with the mass recruitment from prisons and the like? How many are committed to being a personal army I wonder (mercenary force seems a bit off as a descriptor).
@MikeGapes Have Corbyn and his friends called on both sides to Stop the War in Russia yet ?
And to think, if only NATO hadn't meddled none of this would be happening. Why couldn't NATO just force Ukraine to join the Russian sphere prior to the invasion, or let them be conquered, then the people of Rostov would be in peace right now.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Is Mike on holiday again (wondering just how bad the Russian coup is going to get) ? 😂
A bad coup is one that is going to be put down overnight like Turkey 2016.
I'm wondering how good the coup is going to get. 😂
If Wagner takes over in Ukraine its watchword will be: No more Mr Nice Guy. Careful what you wish for.
I doubt it. I think Wagner want out of Ukraine, they don't want to be fighting Western-backed troops, they want to fight people they can bully.
Interesting that Prigozhin has basically called out the war in Ukraine as unnecessary, undermined the case for it and said that it was all Shoigu's fault the war started. That doesn't sound like someone in a hurry to get back to having his men killed in Ukraine again. See analysis at 9:11am here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-66006142
I like Mr Nicholson's suggestion she's adopted the dead cat strategy. Rather apt.
It's not a spoof story. A teacher called a child despicable and suggested they go to a different school because they had a binary view on sex. The cat element is a red herring.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
I hope you and your pal with the UJs didn’t have too much of the piss ripped out of you.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Conference? Isn't this a strange time of year for a conference?
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
will be free tickets being handed out by now to try and make it a bit less embarrassing. They should have gone for backroom of a pub given their last turnout in a massive hall. The glory days are gone for this bunch of grifters, down to delusions of grandeur now. We need a coup in Scotland.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Conference? Isn't this a strange time of year for a conference?
It’s not an ‘SNP’ conference per se but a convention on independence.
Is Mike on holiday again (wondering just how bad the Russian coup is going to get) ? 😂
A bad coup is one that is going to be put down overnight like Turkey 2016.
I'm wondering how good the coup is going to get. 😂
If Wagner takes over in Ukraine its watchword will be: No more Mr Nice Guy. Careful what you wish for.
I doubt it. I think Wagner want out of Ukraine, they don't want to be fighting Western-backed troops, they want to fight people they can bully.
Interesting that Prigozhin has basically called out the war in Ukraine as unnecessary, undermined the case for it and said that it was all Shoigu's fault the war started. That doesn't sound like someone in a hurry to get back to having his men killed in Ukraine again. See analysis at 9:11am here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-66006142
Yep, this fundamentally isn’t starting over a spat between personalities. It’s someone trying to draw the line under the Ukraine misadventure.
That’s not suggesting Prigozhin is a hero or a nice man. The world will not be especially safe with him and his buddies in charge. But it will mark a change in Ukraine.
Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien · 40m Replying to @PhillipsPOBrien To understand what Prigozhin has done in seizing control of Rostov and Voronezh, think of him as the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean in 1800, and the Russian army in Ukraine is Napoleon’s army in Egypt.
Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien · 35m Replying to @PhillipsPOBrien In other words, the Russian army can’t function if Prigozhin won’t let it, it needs the supply routes working. Napoleon won all the battles in Egypt but had to pull out because he could not keep the supply routes open
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Conference? Isn't this a strange time of year for a conference?
Delayed from March.
How it can be called a conference is a laugh, some clowns stating they have no clue other than begging Wm and much prefer to stay on the gravy train that actually try to get anywhere, then a collection tin at the door to help with the legal bills incoming. Assuming their are still some idiots who would trust them with as much as a brass farthing.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Conference? Isn't this a strange time of year for a conference?
It’s not an ‘SNP’ conference per se but a convention on independence.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Conference? Isn't this a strange time of year for a conference?
They are discussing their new improved plan for independence….which sounds very much like the old plan. See Wings for details ( for the tiny handful still interested).
Two rival groups of gangster/nutcases, angry at both each other and the rest of the world, each controlling part of the former Soviet nuclear arsenal. The bad outcomes are pretty bad.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
Well I guess the 2 worst case scenarios are 1) Putin consolidates his power but at the expense of any trust he has for any followers and his own sanity and goes cuckoo-nuts with the nuke button or 2) nuclear civil war in Russia with potential to spill out into a wider conflagration. But we’re not anywhere near either of those yet.
Very small crowd floating about in front of the Caird Hall this morning for the SNP conference. A couple of people there with Union Jacks trying to wind them up but the SNiPs look like they can’t be bothered.
Conference? Isn't this a strange time of year for a conference?
Delayed from March.
How it can be called a conference is a laugh, some clowns stating they have no clue other than begging Wm and much prefer to stay on the gravy train that actually try to get anywhere, then a collection tin at the door to help with the legal bills incoming. Assuming their are still some idiots who would trust them with as much as a brass farthing.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
@rogerlwhite Is it true that leader of the Albagner Group Alex (Russia Today) Salmond is marching with his forces on Dundee today to topple the leader of the Scottish government, hunkered down with his loyal followers in the Caird Hall?
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Looking positively. (I'm so perky I get on my own nerves). This is the beginning of the end of the War in Ukraine I think. It may be the start of one in Russia, mind.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
If you're curious how Wagner are managing to down VKS assets, here you go; a Pantsir-S(1), w/ the acquisition radar of the 72V6-series combat vehicle active. Can also see a Strela-10 TELAR, although doesn't look like it's being used.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
But there's also the matter of nuclear weapons.
And also big conventional forces. They may be full out of date equipment, but there's tons of them.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
@rogerlwhite Is it true that leader of the Albagner Group Alex (Russia Today) Salmond is marching with his forces on Dundee today to topple the leader of the Scottish government, hunkered down with his loyal followers in the Caird Hall?
This actually is the Caird Hall in a previous incarnation. Rumours of the Albanians in any way matching the murderous efficiency of the Wagner Group are much exaggerated
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
@rogerlwhite Is it true that leader of the Albagner Group Alex (Russia Today) Salmond is marching with his forces on Dundee today to topple the leader of the Scottish government, hunkered down with his loyal followers in the Caird Hall?
Trying to be funny from a foreign country does not work sunshine. Hope you have a day job given youar eabout as funny as a hole in the head.
Is Mike on holiday again (wondering just how bad the Russian coup is going to get) ? 😂
A bad coup is one that is going to be put down overnight like Turkey 2016.
I'm wondering how good the coup is going to get. 😂
If Wagner takes over in Ukraine its watchword will be: No more Mr Nice Guy. Careful what you wish for.
Right, because a perfect description of the war so far has been "Mr Nice Guy".
Um, that was my point. It could easily get even worse.
Well, shoot a dictator from time to time "to encourage the others"
Genuinely might be true - too many dictatorial regimes are unfortunately stable. Dictators live in constant fear of losing their power - that's the nature of the game - but few seem to face serious actual threat, so perhaps they are getting a bit comfortable.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
But there's also the matter of nuclear weapons.
And also big conventional forces. They may be full out of date equipment, but there's tons of them.
Useless though, they would struggle to beat a carpet.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
Ah, so a military mutiny is of no consequence so long as it is over quickly, right. If 20k Ukrainian troops rose up against the military high command that would be of no consequence too?
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
Welcome. The Questions -
1) is pineapple on pizza a war crime? 2) an airliner crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border. On which side do you bury the survivors? 3) which is more legendary - @TSE’s modesty or the quietness of his taste in shoes?
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
Two rival groups of gangster/nutcases, angry at both each other and the rest of the world, each controlling part of the former Soviet nuclear arsenal. The bad outcomes are pretty bad.
Bad for Russia yes. Bad for the rest of us? Not so much. I’d rather have them pointing nukes at each other than at Ukraine.
Some useful tips for Trump if he loses in 2024. To quote crocodile Dundee, “mate, that ain’t a coup. This is a coup”. GOP should start hiring convicts into a private militia.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
But there's also the matter of nuclear weapons.
And also big conventional forces. They may be full out of date equipment, but there's tons of them.
Oh big frigging deal about nuclear weapons, so what? That's all apologists for Russia every bring up, nukes, nukes, nukes. Yes, many nations have nukes, including us, so they're not going to be used against the West as we'd destroy them if they did.
Conventional forces - yes they have these. So if they're using them on each other that's better than using them on Ukrainians.
Either way, a civil war or coup is better than Putin continuing as a dictator invading other nations.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
This fron Will Schryver. Please guys dont get too excited.
Well that was the most lame attempt at a coup d'etat I've ever seen. A couple old tanks and a couple dozen trucks carrying a couple hundred disheveled "soldiers" in ill-fitting uniforms. The modest parade was escorted by Rosgvardia into Rostov; Prigozhin pretended to "occupy" the city, then he had a chat with a couple generals, after which he and his motley group of "insurrectionists" drove away again. Now Putin says they're all in VERY big trouble and will be dealt with promptly and harshly. That's it, folks. Show's over. We will now resume the war where we left off a few hours ago.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
You think Putin’s in so much trouble he won’t make it to Monday?
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
But there's also the matter of nuclear weapons.
And also big conventional forces. They may be full out of date equipment, but there's tons of them.
The more chaos, the more chance of them rotting in their siloes unmaintained. And the more chances of Western intelligence penetration too.
As has been commented up thread, better the devil you don’t know.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
Ah we've been expecting you.
What's going to be over by the end of the weekend? Putin's regime?
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
I like Mr Nicholson's suggestion she's adopted the dead cat strategy. Rather apt.
It's not a spoof story. A teacher called a child despicable and suggested they go to a different school because they had a binary view on sex. The cat element is a red herring.
Quite so.
Don't tell us; tell Kemi. She's the one who mentioned the cat.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
You think Putin’s in so much trouble he won’t make it to Monday?
Is the shard our latest Saturday visitor? Tough gig this morning. Still, good use of google to check out London landmarks for a user name.
@wartranslated ❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
This fron Will Schryver. Please guys dont get too excited.
Well that was the most lame attempt at a coup d'etat I've ever seen. A couple old tanks and a couple dozen trucks carrying a couple hundred disheveled "soldiers" in ill-fitting uniforms. The modest parade was escorted by Rosgvardia into Rostov; Prigozhin pretended to "occupy" the city, then he had a chat with a couple generals, after which he and his motley group of "insurrectionists" drove away again. Now Putin says they're all in VERY big trouble and will be dealt with promptly and harshly. That's it, folks. Show's over. We will now resume the war where we left off a few hours ago.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
You think Putin’s in so much trouble he won’t make it to Monday?
Is the shard our latest Saturday visitor? Tough gig this morning. Still, good use of google to check out London landmarks for a user name.
Yes but starting with Will Schryver as a "source"?
They've clearly not sent us their best operator this weekend.
I think the wishes for chaos in Russia are unwise.
A country as vast and well-armed as that does not spiral into chaos without it affecting large areas of the rest of the world, for diverse, military, migratory , and economic reasons. It wouldn't be something we could just cheerfully watch from our armchairs.
This fron Will Schryver. Please guys dont get too excited.
Well that was the most lame attempt at a coup d'etat I've ever seen. A couple old tanks and a couple dozen trucks carrying a couple hundred disheveled "soldiers" in ill-fitting uniforms. The modest parade was escorted by Rosgvardia into Rostov; Prigozhin pretended to "occupy" the city, then he had a chat with a couple generals, after which he and his motley group of "insurrectionists" drove away again. Now Putin says they're all in VERY big trouble and will be dealt with promptly and harshly. That's it, folks. Show's over. We will now resume the war where we left off a few hours ago.
How can we not get excited? Trolling Russian trolls is a weekly high spot on PB. Especially when their employer has just launched his own three day SMO.
That shoot-down sounds more worrying, if that's right, because as i understand it Voronezh is nearer Moscow than Ukraine.
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
A transfer of power is ideal yes, but a few dead scorpions along the way isn't the worst thing in the world to undermine any potential for continued war effort afterwards.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
It depends, though, because the dynamics of these thing can be very hard to control once they get underway.
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
Win/win either way then.
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
Really i think you guys are getting too excited by this. I imagine this will all be over by the end of the weekend.
You think Putin’s in so much trouble he won’t make it to Monday?
Is the shard our latest Saturday visitor? Tough gig this morning. Still, good use of google to check out London landmarks for a user name.
I think the wishes for chaos in Russia are unwise.
A country as vast and well-armed as that does not spiral into chaos without it affecting large areas of the rest of the world, for diverse, military, migratory , and economic reasons. It wouldn't be something we could just cheerfully watch from our armchairs.
Hopefully there will be a full blown civil war and the country will be less vast and less well armed by the end of it.
Even cnn says Ukraines counteroffensive is going poorly. This is a big distraction from the total slaughter of ukrainian men on the front line.
Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN. The counteroffensive is “not meeting expectations on any front,” one of them said
This fron Will Schryver. Please guys dont get too excited.
Well that was the most lame attempt at a coup d'etat I've ever seen. A couple old tanks and a couple dozen trucks carrying a couple hundred disheveled "soldiers" in ill-fitting uniforms. The modest parade was escorted by Rosgvardia into Rostov; Prigozhin pretended to "occupy" the city, then he had a chat with a couple generals, after which he and his motley group of "insurrectionists" drove away again. Now Putin says they're all in VERY big trouble and will be dealt with promptly and harshly. That's it, folks. Show's over. We will now resume the war where we left off a few hours ago.
Comments
The Government needs to pick some things it currently asks public sector employees to do, which its no longer going to ask them to do. At that point you can have cuts. I have my own ideas, I'm sure others have others.
Simply saying "cuts" without actually cutting anything isn't going to work though.
I know there was that bad interview for the LD candidate in Somerton, but that sort of thing is survivable.
Have Corbyn and his friends called on both sides to Stop the War in Russia yet ?
I'm wondering how good the coup is going to get. 😂
Putin today: the prisoners I pardoned so they could join my former caterer's militia should please stop participating in his armed uprising against my defense ministry
For those of you new to this media environment. The main sources of info are an army that lies about everything; a warlord who owns an infamous troll factory and lied about it for years; and the Kremlin. And Russia destroyed the media, so there aren't any good independent sources
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1672528720261677056?cxt=HHwWgICw_c6AgrYuAAAA
Unless we see actual military efforts taking place to properly impede Wagner then no-one is resisting them currently.
Where was this reported as happening ? If it was in or around Ukraine rather than South of Moscow it might be less notable.
Interesting that Prigozhin has basically called out the war in Ukraine as unnecessary, undermined the case for it and said that it was all Shoigu's fault the war started. That doesn't sound like someone in a hurry to get back to having his men killed in Ukraine again. See analysis at 9:11am here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-66006142
That’s not suggesting Prigozhin is a hero or a nice man. The world will not be especially safe with him and his buddies in charge. But it will mark a change in Ukraine.
Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
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40m
Replying to
@PhillipsPOBrien
To understand what Prigozhin has done in seizing control of Rostov and Voronezh, think of him as the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean in 1800, and the Russian army in Ukraine is Napoleon’s army in Egypt.
Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
·
35m
Replying to
@PhillipsPOBrien
In other words, the Russian army can’t function if Prigozhin won’t let it, it needs the supply routes working. Napoleon won all the battles in Egypt but had to pull out because he could not keep the supply routes open
How bad could this get?
Let's hope for a more peaceful transfer of power, because in a country as vast and well-armed as Russia, even with thugs like Progozhin, that would be preferable.
Especially if its valuable military hardware that is destroyed, with no dead Ukrainians on either side of the conflict.
Is it true that leader of the Albagner Group Alex (Russia Today) Salmond is marching with his forces on Dundee today to topple the leader of the Scottish government, hunkered down with his loyal followers in the Caird Hall?
It could be either a very quick palace coup, or a long and bloody civil conflict. To be honest I think those two options are the most likely.
First rule of being a dictator: don’t let anyone else have an army.
(I'm so perky I get on my own nerves).
This is the beginning of the end of the War in Ukraine I think.
It may be the start of one in Russia, mind.
❗️Prigozhin audio message 10:19AM BST - "no one will surrender to the demands of the President":
"Regarding the betrayal of the Motherland, the President is deeply mistaken. We’re patriots of our Motherland. We fought and we are fighting, all fighters of PMC Wagner. And no one is going to surrender to the demands of the President, FSB, or anyone else. Because we don’t want the country to live further in corruption lies, and bureaucracy.
When we fought in Africa, we were told that we needed Africa, and then they dumped it, because they stole all the money that was meant to come for help.
When we were told we are fighting with Ukraine, we went and fought. But it turned out that the ammo, weapons, all money put towards this were also being stolen, while officials are sitting and saving them for themselves for an incident that happened today, when someone is going towards Moscow."
Now they are not saving anything, they are striking us with planes and helicopters at the columns with civilians. And they hit civilians because they’re missing. And they hit anywhere they can.
Thus, we are the patriots, but those resisting us today are those who gathered around scumbags.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672536701997072384
At the moment, anything is possible - apart from a transition to democracy.
Plus tanks, technicals, supply trucks, etc.
https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1672534220122599424
A quick palace coup is great, get rid of Putin.
A long and bloody civil conflict is great. Russians fighting Russians is infinitely better than Russians fighting Ukrainians.
They aren’t here to convince us that Woke Trans Gay NATO is a threat to our Vital Essence.
They are here to get timing information as to when Russia should launch the Next Big Stupidity.
And also big conventional forces. They may be full out of date equipment, but there's tons of them.
Rumours of the Albanians in any way matching the murderous efficiency of the Wagner Group are much exaggerated
Boris Johnson rides a tidal wave of “I fucking told you” back to No 10….
That’s the 10/10
At 9 we have Global Nuclear War
At 8…
No need to answer.
1) is pineapple on pizza a war crime?
2) an airliner crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border. On which side do you bury the survivors?
3) which is more legendary - @TSE’s modesty or the quietness of his taste in shoes?
Some useful tips for Trump if he loses in 2024. To quote crocodile Dundee, “mate, that ain’t a coup. This is a coup”. GOP should start hiring convicts into a private militia.
Conventional forces - yes they have these. So if they're using them on each other that's better than using them on Ukrainians.
Either way, a civil war or coup is better than Putin continuing as a dictator invading other nations.
Well that was the most lame attempt at a coup d'etat I've ever seen. A couple old tanks and a couple dozen trucks carrying a couple hundred disheveled "soldiers" in ill-fitting uniforms. The modest parade was escorted by Rosgvardia into Rostov; Prigozhin pretended to "occupy" the city, then he had a chat with a couple generals, after which he and his motley group of "insurrectionists" drove away again. Now Putin says they're all in VERY big trouble and will be dealt with promptly and harshly. That's it, folks. Show's over. We will now resume the war where we left off a few hours ago.
8:44 AM · Jun 24, 2023
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70.7K
https://twitter.com/imetatronink/status/1672510901256171520?s=20
As has been commented up thread, better the devil you don’t know.
What's going to be over by the end of the weekend? Putin's regime?
The highway of death on the M4 or Swan Lake?
They've clearly not sent us their best operator this weekend.
A country as vast and well-armed as that does not spiral into chaos without it affecting large areas of the rest of the world, for diverse, military, migratory , and economic reasons. It wouldn't be something we could just cheerfully watch from our armchairs.
Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN. The counteroffensive is “not meeting expectations on any front,” one of them said
4:05 PM · Jun 22, 2023
·
138.6K
Views
https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1671897144301854721?s=20
His ambitions and lack of willingness to remain in the shadows have certainly altered.