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Starmer extends his approval lead over Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658
    edited May 2023

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    This assumes too many things.

    1) That the argument has been 'won' by remain. This is not a given. Without rehashing all the old rubbish part of the reason Brexit is seen in such bad light is effects of covid and the CoL crisis as a result of the war in Ukraine. People are associating rising prices in Tesco's with Brexit, gleefully egged on by those who should (and do) know better. Brexit so far has been poor economically, but it is not the only economic headwind.

    2) That your cohort of leave voters should apologise. Much of the rage about Brexit involves the idea that Leavers told lies and that the lies were believed. If this is the case, many of the leave voters should not need to apologise - they were fooled, taken in, deceived.

    3) Both sides lied predicted the future with very poor levels of accuracy. For every 'easiest trade deal in history' I give you 'immediate recesssion, millions unemployed'.
    Remain conducted an abysmal campaign, and for that alone deserved to lose, but lie? Their "lies" have turned into accurate premonitions.
    Some yes, others no. I missed the immediate crisis budget and I'm still missing the millions of unemployed.
    The immediate crisis budgeting is now ongoing, OK four years late, and the millions of unemployed is heading for a retail park near you. Remoaners failed to realise all the Eastern Europeans would f*** off back to Eastern Europeland. Leavers (such as Kinabalu's mate Trevor from Dudley) didn't realise that this would mean importing Labour from the Indian Sub- Continent. Trevor says he never saw that on the side of a bus.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,612
    Scott_xP said:


    "A time will come when politicians can tell voters that Brexit was a turkey of an idea, that it makes Britain poorer, that it doesn’t even work as an immigration-cutting retreat from the world. That time isn’t far off. But it isn’t now. Not quite."

    Starmer must wait before breaking the Brexit omertà
    Voters know they made a mistake. That doesn’t mean they are ready to be told so

    https://www.ft.com/content/def7d504-c68e-4682-a237-192334e07034

    Just wait for Nick Clegg declaring that Brexit was right, and that the EU is regulating itself out of contention.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,699
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    ...which means the country will get richer...

    ...but the people in it will get poorer. Ooops.

    Here's a thing and it's a real life thing so you'll like it. During the US presence in Afghanistan one of the statistics compiled (these days the US armed forces are basically big data with big guns) was GDP. This led to some bafflement when despite a rising GDP, satisfaction with the occupation fell. They eventually worked out that they should have been measuring gross/net household income or similar. GDP measures the performance of the country, but household income or similar measures the performance of the people.

    It all depends on whether you think the state should service the country (an abstract concept) or the people (a concrete concept).

    edit: fixed wrong acronym, apologies.

    Read the article. He claims Brexit migration patterns will raise GDP PER CAPITA, not just GDP
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,461
    Leon said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    Jonathan Portes showing he's an original thinker unencumbered by partisan politics. Great piece. To some extent this is a vindication of Dom Cummings also.
    Portes is a great economist. I think his piece in the Guardian though is too ready to focus on one positive aspect of Brexit - the increased net migration and changed composition of inflows of people - without looking at the broader picture and especially the impact on trade and inwards investment, which remains clearly negative. Like him, I am happy to admit that Brexit has actually increased net immigration rather than reduced it. The problem I have with the new immigration regime isn't the increased numbers coming in, which I have no problem with, but the loss of reciprocity.
    Importing relatively smarter migrants will - as he says - eventually lift GDP per capita rather than just lifting GDP - which is what EU Free Movement did
    Yes, obvs. But we've also raised the cost to businesses of importing those smarter migrants because employers used to be able to get them from the EU without a visa or paperwork and now they can get them from Malaysia or France but have to jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops. And of course the primary benefit of the higher GDP/capita goes to the immigrant who gets the job. None of which I have a problem with at all, but I'm somewhat surprised to hear you bigging it up given your nativist proclivities. Plus of course, no reciprocity.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,081
    Starmer's NHS speech yesterday was a serious and thoughtful effort to set out a future path for the NHS that would make it fit for the 21st C. He recognised the key problems - ageing population and so on. He recognised that spending more money was not a sufficient answer. Rather, the speech focused on saving money through earlier intervention, better screening, more effective use of technology and so on. Combined with specifics on things like mental health, it was more about reform and change than spending more.

    Those who are saying that Starmer had nothing to say other than 'spend more' simply haven't read the speech. Of course people may disagree with his solutions, but don't pretend this wasn't a serious attempt at policy-making.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,699
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    Jonathan Portes showing he's an original thinker unencumbered by partisan politics. Great piece. To some extent this is a vindication of Dom Cummings also.
    Portes is a great economist. I think his piece in the Guardian though is too ready to focus on one positive aspect of Brexit - the increased net migration and changed composition of inflows of people - without looking at the broader picture and especially the impact on trade and inwards investment, which remains clearly negative. Like him, I am happy to admit that Brexit has actually increased net immigration rather than reduced it. The problem I have with the new immigration regime isn't the increased numbers coming in, which I have no problem with, but the loss of reciprocity.
    Importing relatively smarter migrants will - as he says - eventually lift GDP per capita rather than just lifting GDP - which is what EU Free Movement did
    Yes, obvs. But we've also raised the cost to businesses of importing those smarter migrants because employers used to be able to get them from the EU without a visa or paperwork and now they can get them from Malaysia or France but have to jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops. And of course the primary benefit of the higher GDP/capita goes to the immigrant who gets the job. None of which I have a problem with at all, but I'm somewhat surprised to hear you bigging it up given your nativist proclivities. Plus of course, no reciprocity.
    Derrr

    We all benefit from a higher GDP per capita. By definition

    As for these “bureaucratic hoops” they clearly aren’t much of an obstacle given that the next migration stats are predicted to show 700,000-1m people coming in. Net
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141

    GIN1138 said:

    Though it must be said SKS still isn't exactly setting the world alight and will not be swept into Downing St on a wave of euphoria from the masses like the blessed Tony.

    Which is another reason I can see trouble ahead for Labour in the 2024-2029 Parliament..

    Alternatively, he will disappoint far fewer people than Blair did!
    Exactly. Him not 'sealing the deal' is deliberate big ticket expectations management. If you can win without getting people all gooey eyed and delusional that's a far preferable way to enter government. This is deep, forward thinking strategy from SKS. He is very very very good at politics.
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,441
    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Though it must be said SKS still isn't exactly setting the world alight and will not be swept into Downing St on a wave of euphoria from the masses like the blessed Tony.

    Which is another reason I can see trouble ahead for Labour in the 2024-2029 Parliament..

    Alternatively, he will disappoint far fewer people than Blair did!
    Exactly. Him not 'sealing the deal' is deliberate big ticket expectations management. If you can win without getting people all gooey eyed and delusional that's a far preferable way to enter government. This is deep, forward thinking strategy from SKS. He is very very very good at politics.
    He staged a John Lewis photo op to point at wallpaper
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,859
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Loads of people! A subset of the larger group who generally miss the whole point of sport though, and advocate for soul-sapping crap like VAR.

    County finished fourth, so in a playoffless world we would have just been promoted with a whimper. I would genuinely sooner do the playoff thing and have a shot at winning promotion in a packed out Wembley!
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658
    edited May 2023
    ...

    Scott_xP said:


    "A time will come when politicians can tell voters that Brexit was a turkey of an idea, that it makes Britain poorer, that it doesn’t even work as an immigration-cutting retreat from the world. That time isn’t far off. But it isn’t now. Not quite."

    Starmer must wait before breaking the Brexit omertà
    Voters know they made a mistake. That doesn’t mean they are ready to be told so

    https://www.ft.com/content/def7d504-c68e-4682-a237-192334e07034

    Just wait for Nick Clegg declaring that Brexit was right, and that the EU is regulating itself out of contention.
    If true, has Clegg had a similar epiphany to your goodself? Or are you and Nick Clegg one and the same centrist Tory to right-wing ideologue convert?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 55,222
    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    That is genuinely funny: bravo
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything.

    We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally.

    I bags you. So no rush but
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    If the answer is more tech bros, the questions are wrong

    Yet your answer is “more Romanian big issue sellers”. No wonder you lost
    That's the first time I've heard anyone advocating either.

    No need to apologise; save that for @kinabalu
    🙂 - yes I'm waiting with my gracious face on.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    ...which means the country will get richer...

    ...but the people in it will get poorer. Ooops.

    Here's a thing and it's a real life thing so you'll like it. During the US presence in Afghanistan one of the statistics compiled (these days the US armed forces are basically big data with big guns) was GDP. This led to some bafflement when despite a rising GDP, satisfaction with the occupation fell. They eventually worked out that they should have been measuring gross/net household income or similar. GDP measures the performance of the country, but household income or similar measures the performance of the people.

    It all depends on whether you think the state should service the country (an abstract concept) or the people (a concrete concept).

    edit: fixed wrong acronym, apologies.

    Read the article. He claims Brexit migration patterns will raise GDP PER CAPITA, not just GDP
    Read my point again. GDP, whether GDP per capita or GDP absolute, does not measure the wealth of the individual (it includes inflows and outflows). It is entirely possible that GDP per capita goes up but household income per household [edit: or per capita] goes down. Indeed, I think states such as Dubai do this as a matter of policy, importing poorer and poorer individuals to do the work whilst the indolent rich become richer and more indolent...

    ...I wish I hadn't just thought of that. :(

  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,859
    Farooq said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    No offence, but I hope Carlisle give you a proper good stuffing.
    I once got attacked by some Stockport fans and I've always hated the team since.

    I agree with you about the playoffs, great to have the run in when even teams at low as 10th have a hope of sneaking in in the final few weeks.
    Boilerplate every-team-has dickheads, but I'm very sorry to hear that. Your feelings are legit.

    The club is an a good, optimistic place with a positive culture at the moment but regardless there's still a small bellend contingent (who, tellingly, have only just started creeping back now the team is doing OK again).
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    edited May 2023
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    ...which means the country will get richer...

    ...but the people in it will get poorer. Ooops.

    Here's a thing and it's a real life thing so you'll like it. During the US presence in Afghanistan one of the statistics compiled (these days the US armed forces are basically big data with big guns) was GDP. This led to some bafflement when despite a rising GDP, satisfaction with the occupation fell. They eventually worked out that they should have been measuring gross/net household income or similar. GDP measures the performance of the country, but household income or similar measures the performance of the people.

    It all depends on whether you think the state should service the country (an abstract concept) or the people (a concrete concept).

    edit: fixed wrong acronym, apologies.

    Read the article. He claims Brexit migration patterns will raise GDP PER CAPITA, not just GDP
    So would rounding up the homeless and killing them, but nobody's saying that's a good idea.
    DO. NOT. GIVE. HIM. IDEAS. :lol:
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,461
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    Jonathan Portes showing he's an original thinker unencumbered by partisan politics. Great piece. To some extent this is a vindication of Dom Cummings also.
    Portes is a great economist. I think his piece in the Guardian though is too ready to focus on one positive aspect of Brexit - the increased net migration and changed composition of inflows of people - without looking at the broader picture and especially the impact on trade and inwards investment, which remains clearly negative. Like him, I am happy to admit that Brexit has actually increased net immigration rather than reduced it. The problem I have with the new immigration regime isn't the increased numbers coming in, which I have no problem with, but the loss of reciprocity.
    Importing relatively smarter migrants will - as he says - eventually lift GDP per capita rather than just lifting GDP - which is what EU Free Movement did
    Yes, obvs. But we've also raised the cost to businesses of importing those smarter migrants because employers used to be able to get them from the EU without a visa or paperwork and now they can get them from Malaysia or France but have to jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops. And of course the primary benefit of the higher GDP/capita goes to the immigrant who gets the job. None of which I have a problem with at all, but I'm somewhat surprised to hear you bigging it up given your nativist proclivities. Plus of course, no reciprocity.
    Derrr

    We all benefit from a higher GDP per capita. By definition
    Er not necessarily, or at least not by much. GDP is a measure of all the income in the economy, wages and profits. Say the economy grows by adding an additional worker. If that worker is paid more than average then GDP per capita goes up. If they are paid less than average then GDP goes up but GDP per capita goes down. But in the first scenario, nobody else in the economy gets paid any more money than before, so nobody else has any more money despite the rise in GDP per capita.
    Of course in an economy with a progressive tax and benefit system the higher the wage of the additional immigrant worker the more net benefit to the Treasury. Immigrants tend to be less of a net drain because they are younger and more likely to work than natives. But other things being equal you need to earn a lot more than average for you to pay in more in taxes than you get out owing to our highly progressive tax system. And non EU immigrants are I believe less likely to go home before they get old and become a net burden compared to EU immigrants. So it's not totally obvious that we all benefit from a higher GDP per capita in this new regime. We probably do, but not necessarily because the principal benefit goes to the person whose higher than average income pushes the average up.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,612

    ...

    Scott_xP said:


    "A time will come when politicians can tell voters that Brexit was a turkey of an idea, that it makes Britain poorer, that it doesn’t even work as an immigration-cutting retreat from the world. That time isn’t far off. But it isn’t now. Not quite."

    Starmer must wait before breaking the Brexit omertà
    Voters know they made a mistake. That doesn’t mean they are ready to be told so

    https://www.ft.com/content/def7d504-c68e-4682-a237-192334e07034

    Just wait for Nick Clegg declaring that Brexit was right, and that the EU is regulating itself out of contention.
    If true, has Clegg had a similar epiphany to your goodself? Or are you and Nick Clegg one and the same centrist Tory to right-wing ideologue?
    I'm just speculating about his private thoughts in light of this:

    https://about.fb.com/news/2023/05/our-response-to-the-decision-on-facebooks-eu-us-data-transfers/
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,278
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Loads of people! A subset of the larger group who generally miss the whole point of sport though, and advocate for soul-sapping crap like VAR.

    County finished fourth, so in a playoffless world we would have just been promoted with a whimper. I would genuinely sooner do the playoff thing and have a shot at winning promotion in a packed out Wembley!
    Hope you have a good day.
    I went to County's first appearance at Wembley back in (I think) about 1992, in the final of the Autoglass trophy. County lost 1-0 to Stoke. County then went on to lose at Wembley again that year in the playoff final, and again in the playoff final a year after that. So while I like the playoffs in principle, I am a little jaded by them.
    Have County ever won at Wembley?

    My main objection to the playoffs is not the thing themselves but the fact the final is in bloody London, and as always with Wembley matches the teams from the southeast always seem to win (I have no idea how this stands up to rigorous analysis!)

  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,278
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Has it? In what context?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Trevor insists you meet up at the (No?) Hope Tavern in Netherton, and before he'll agree to anything he'll demand five pints of Holdens and the posh Remoaner pays.
    Well that derails things entirely. The whole idea now loses its utility. Back to the drawing board.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,461
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
    Far from Brexit being a racist project it turns out that the only time that Vote Leave was telling the truth was when they told minority voters that voting Leave would mean more immigration from the Commonwealth. And they've even got Leon on board for more immigration. Fair play to them, genuinely.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,375
    Cookie said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Loads of people! A subset of the larger group who generally miss the whole point of sport though, and advocate for soul-sapping crap like VAR.

    County finished fourth, so in a playoffless world we would have just been promoted with a whimper. I would genuinely sooner do the playoff thing and have a shot at winning promotion in a packed out Wembley!
    Hope you have a good day.
    I went to County's first appearance at Wembley back in (I think) about 1992, in the final of the Autoglass trophy. County lost 1-0 to Stoke. County then went on to lose at Wembley again that year in the playoff final, and again in the playoff final a year after that. So while I like the playoffs in principle, I am a little jaded by them.
    Have County ever won at Wembley?

    My main objection to the playoffs is not the thing themselves but the fact the final is in bloody London, and as always with Wembley matches the teams from the southeast always seem to win (I have no idea how this stands up to rigorous analysis!)

    I remember the Gillingham / Man City playoff. Man City won that one so it's not always true that the Southern team wins.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,367
    Respect to Portes. It is an opinion peice as someone noted, not the "official" Guardian view, and it is only about one aspect of Brexit. But respect to Jonathan Portes for his disinterested analysis.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    The article, digested

    "Your fresh fruit is going to get more expensive but nurses' salaries are going to fall because Nigerian nurses are far cheaper than you".

    Gee. Thanks, Guardian.
    No. He’s saying Bulgarian Big Issue sellers are being replaced by Egyptian bankers and Malaysian tech bros. Which means Brexit is working - better than he expected - which means the country will get richer - quicker than he expected - which means Brexit was the right choice
    I am not convinced that "the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services" are made up solely of Egyptian bankers and Malaysian tech bros. More likely Nigerian and Indian nurses and doctors, Indian and Russian coders, and Egyptian bankers. I don't know what a "Malaysian tech bro" is and I suspect I would be dubious if I did.
    Tech bro is slang for “People with technical skills and more power and money than their decently non-technical betters”
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,612

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
    Far from Brexit being a racist project it turns out that the only time that Vote Leave was telling the truth was when they told minority voters that voting Leave would mean more immigration from the Commonwealth. And they've even got Leon on board for more immigration. Fair play to them, genuinely.
    The rejoin movement will be quite vulnerable to being portrayed as Mosleyite.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,859
    Cookie said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Loads of people! A subset of the larger group who generally miss the whole point of sport though, and advocate for soul-sapping crap like VAR.

    County finished fourth, so in a playoffless world we would have just been promoted with a whimper. I would genuinely sooner do the playoff thing and have a shot at winning promotion in a packed out Wembley!
    Hope you have a good day.
    I went to County's first appearance at Wembley back in (I think) about 1992, in the final of the Autoglass trophy. County lost 1-0 to Stoke. County then went on to lose at Wembley again that year in the playoff final, and again in the playoff final a year after that. So while I like the playoffs in principle, I am a little jaded by them.
    Have County ever won at Wembley?

    My main objection to the playoffs is not the thing themselves but the fact the final is in bloody London, and as always with Wembley matches the teams from the southeast always seem to win (I have no idea how this stands up to rigorous analysis!)

    Yes, 2008 (vs Rochdale, again the league 2 playoffs)
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,461

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
    Far from Brexit being a racist project it turns out that the only time that Vote Leave was telling the truth was when they told minority voters that voting Leave would mean more immigration from the Commonwealth. And they've even got Leon on board for more immigration. Fair play to them, genuinely.
    The rejoin movement will be quite vulnerable to being portrayed as Mosleyite.
    Hmm I doubt it.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    The article, digested

    "Your fresh fruit is going to get more expensive but nurses' salaries are going to fall because Nigerian nurses are far cheaper than you".

    Gee. Thanks, Guardian.
    No. He’s saying Bulgarian Big Issue sellers are being replaced by Egyptian bankers and Malaysian tech bros. Which means Brexit is working - better than he expected - which means the country will get richer - quicker than he expected - which means Brexit was the right choice
    I am not convinced that "the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services" are made up solely of Egyptian bankers and Malaysian tech bros. More likely Nigerian and Indian nurses and doctors, Indian and Russian coders, and Egyptian bankers. I don't know what a "Malaysian tech bro" is and I suspect I would be dubious if I did.
    Tech bro is slang for “People with technical skills and more power and money than their decently non-technical betters”
    Oh. You mean "coder" then... :)

    (incidentally, coders don't earn much when compared to IT management, who - by definition - have increasingly irrelevant tech skills)
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Generally yes, I agree, and certainly in that league where three go up automatically.

    In the National League the system is moronic.

    There's only one automatic promotion slot and the second placed team has to play off regardless of how many points they have – Notts County only scraped up this year open penalties despite amassing enough points to win the title in the entire history of the division!

    (Admittedly it would have been quite funny if they hadn't gone up, but you take my point).

    On a similar topic, I'd like to see one team from the league above sucked into the playoffs, like they do in France. A bit of extra jeopardy at the bottom!

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Tbh, that sounds even crappier than Brexitfest, or whatever it was called.
    At least that had music, I suppose. Ah well, the debate goes on then. No shortcuts. We'll just have to grind it out.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
    Far from Brexit being a racist project it turns out that the only time that Vote Leave was telling the truth was when they told minority voters that voting Leave would mean more immigration from the Commonwealth. And they've even got Leon on board for more immigration. Fair play to them, genuinely.
    The rejoin movement will be quite vulnerable to being portrayed as Mosleyite.
    I read that in a Palpatine voice. Did. Not. Help.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,715
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Has it? In what context?
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/23/panic-immigration-brexit-wages-uk-economy

    I wouldn't (as someone who is still positive about Brexit) for a minute claim that it vindicates what has happened as I think it is far more luck than judgement onthe part of Government but for someone who thinks immigration is a good thing it is nice to see the case put so cogently.

    I am sure most of those who oppose Brexit would have reasonable arguments to counter this but it does make a nice change to see a positive case put for once.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,699
    edited May 2023
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Has it? In what context?
    I’m somewhat trolling (I know, it’s unlike me). But there is a jolly interesting Guardian economics article from J Portes saying he’s identified a large Brexit benefit and Brexit is working as intended (on migration). You’ll find the link upthread
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,261

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Generally yes, I agree, and certainly in that league where three go up automatically.

    In the National League the system is moronic.

    There's only one automatic promotion slot and the second placed team has to play off regardless of how many points they have – Notts County only scraped up this year open penalties despite amassing enough points to win the title in the entire history of the division!

    (Admittedly it would have been quite funny if they hadn't gone up, but you take my point).

    On a similar topic, I'd like to see one team from the league above sucked into the playoffs, like they do in France. A bit of extra jeopardy at the bottom!

    I'm sure you know this but when initially introduced (1989?) that was the system. Effectively three from the Championship (positions 3 to 5) and the 18th placed premiership club.

    Not sure why it changed, tbh,
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,699
    Notable that the Guardian has disallowed comments on that Portes article. Probably a lot of Remainer readers staring at it with migraines of cognitive dissonance
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,859

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Generally yes, I agree, and certainly in that league where three go up automatically.

    In the National League the system is moronic.

    There's only one automatic promotion slot and the second placed team has to play off regardless of how many points they have – Notts County only scraped up this year open penalties despite amassing enough points to win the title in the entire history of the division!

    (Admittedly it would have been quite funny if they hadn't gone up, but you take my point).

    On a similar topic, I'd like to see one team from the league above sucked into the playoffs, like they do in France. A bit of extra jeopardy at the bottom!

    Actually yes - this is true. Though realistically it ought to really be three up three down at least. It's very unusual for a team promoted to the league to get relegated again next season (or at least much less common than in the higher leagues) and there's a real bottleneck of teams at the top of the conference who could be playing in league 2 and probably be around mid-table.

    It was pretty funny last season when Wrexham didn't get promoted though.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,534
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Fans of the team who finish 3rd, 10 points clear of everyone else, and don't get promoted due to a dodgy penalty decision in the playoff final.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,129

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    Leon said:

    Notable that the Guardian has disallowed comments on that Portes article. Probably a lot of Remainer readers staring at it with migraines of cognitive dissonance

    Possibly also to avoid the hordes of people who know what the GDP definition is and would like a word...
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,367
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Notable that the Guardian has disallowed comments on that Portes article. Probably a lot of Remainer readers staring at it with migraines of cognitive dissonance

    Possibly also to avoid the hordes of people who know what the GDP definition is and would like a word...
    Do you think Portes doesn't?

  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    edited May 2023

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    The article, digested

    "Your fresh fruit is going to get more expensive but nurses' salaries are going to fall because Nigerian nurses are far cheaper than you".

    Gee. Thanks, Guardian.
    No. He’s saying Bulgarian Big Issue sellers are being replaced by Egyptian bankers and Malaysian tech bros. Which means Brexit is working - better than he expected - which means the country will get richer - quicker than he expected - which means Brexit was the right choice
    I am not convinced that "the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services" are made up solely of Egyptian bankers and Malaysian tech bros. More likely Nigerian and Indian nurses and doctors, Indian and Russian coders, and Egyptian bankers. I don't know what a "Malaysian tech bro" is and I suspect I would be dubious if I did.
    Tech bro is slang for “People with technical skills and more power and money than their decently non-technical betters”
    (part 2) Incidentally, what the fuck is a Malaysian coder doing in the UK? Couldn't they look at a map? Silicon Valley is closer and they'd earn far more. Do they like rain or something?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,699
    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Rejoin just ain’t gonna happen. It’s FAR too difficult and the EU would rightly insist that we join the euro and schenghen to make sure we don’t change our minds yet again - and there’s no way we are joining the euro

    We will settle into something like Switzerland, ish
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,859

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    What joyless dork decries the playoffs? They are obviously a lot of end-of-season fun
    Fans of the team who finish 3rd, 10 points clear of everyone else, and don't get promoted due to a dodgy penalty decision in the playoff final.
    They should've finished second if they wanted automatic promotion though :)
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,129
    Leon said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Rejoin just ain’t gonna happen. It’s FAR too difficult and the EU would rightly insist that we join the euro and schenghen to make sure we don’t change our minds yet again - and there’s no way we are joining the euro

    We will settle into something like Switzerland, ish
    Of course but you have to feel for Scott_c of this parish. All of those insane posts to no purpose.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    Jonathan Portes showing he's an original thinker unencumbered by partisan politics. Great piece. To some extent this is a vindication of Dom Cummings also.
    Portes is a great economist. I think his piece in the Guardian though is too ready to focus on one positive aspect of Brexit - the increased net migration and changed composition of inflows of people - without looking at the broader picture and especially the impact on trade and inwards investment, which remains clearly negative. Like him, I am happy to admit that Brexit has actually increased net immigration rather than reduced it. The problem I have with the new immigration regime isn't the increased numbers coming in, which I have no problem with, but the loss of reciprocity.
    Importing relatively smarter migrants will - as he says - eventually lift GDP per capita rather than just lifting GDP - which is what EU Free Movement did
    Yes, obvs. But we've also raised the cost to businesses of importing those smarter migrants because employers used to be able to get them from the EU without a visa or paperwork and now they can get them from Malaysia or France but have to jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops. And of course the primary benefit of the higher GDP/capita goes to the immigrant who gets the job. None of which I have a problem with at all, but I'm somewhat surprised to hear you bigging it up given your nativist proclivities. Plus of course, no reciprocity.
    Derrr

    We all benefit from a higher GDP per capita. By definition

    As for these “bureaucratic hoops” they clearly aren’t much of an obstacle given that the next migration stats are predicted to show 700,000-1m people coming in. Net
    In which case 1% GDP growth wouldn't represent any growth per capita.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141
    Leon said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Rejoin just ain’t gonna happen. It’s FAR too difficult and the EU would rightly insist that we join the euro and schenghen to make sure we don’t change our minds yet again - and there’s no way we are joining the euro

    We will settle into something like Switzerland, ish
    Are we happy with this great and storied nation of ours striving to be like Switzerland?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,375
    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Sensible
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,044

    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Sensible
    What's the motivation for this? Not really in Tory self-interest.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    edited May 2023
    [deleted: confused @geoffw with @Leon. Apologies to both]



  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,672
    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    That's just fucked the Tory vote.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,412
    carnforth said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    Jonathan Portes showing he's an original thinker unencumbered by partisan politics. Great piece. To some extent this is a vindication of Dom Cummings also.
    Jonathan Portes is one of the few remainer commentators (or commentators full stop) who actually cares about the data, and will only blame or praise brexit what he actually thinks is down to brexit. David Smith, the economics editor of The Times is a similar bright spot in the landscape.
    David Smith’s weekly column was a regular case study for my A-level economics class - in 1995!
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658
    ...
    felix said:

    Leon said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Rejoin just ain’t gonna happen. It’s FAR too difficult and the EU would rightly insist that we join the euro and schenghen to make sure we don’t change our minds yet again - and there’s no way we are joining the euro

    We will settle into something like Switzerland, ish
    Of course but you have to feel for Scott_c of this parish. All of those insane posts to no purpose.
    I don't believe Scott is making the case for rejoin, those bridges have been burned.

    He has every right to remind potentially regretful Brexiteers of their sheer folly, and condemn those who persuaded them to remove their heads to ease their EU neuralgia.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,672
    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,393
    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    I can't decide whether this is blithe ignorance about what really matters or rank voter suppression scumbaggery. Might be both.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Has it? In what context?
    I’m somewhat trolling (I know, it’s unlike me). But there is a jolly interesting Guardian economics article from J Portes saying he’s identified a large Brexit benefit and Brexit is working as intended (on migration). You’ll find the link upthread
    Brexit was *intended* to increase immigration? I hardly think so. One of its most effective slogans was it would allow us to 'take back control of our borders'. There's no way this was meant to be heard by voters as an intention to let more people in.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”

    "I am confident that nothing untoward happened."
  • Options

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,929
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Rejoin just ain’t gonna happen. It’s FAR too difficult and the EU would rightly insist that we join the euro and schenghen to make sure we don’t change our minds yet again - and there’s no way we are joining the euro

    We will settle into something like Switzerland, ish
    Are we happy with this great and storied nation of ours striving to be like Switzerland?
    I think cukoo clock is about our level nowadays, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance a bit beyond us.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658
    edited May 2023
    ...

    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    That's just fucked the Tory vote.
    Maybe they have just had the news through that had it not been for voter suppression they would have lost 2000 council seats.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301
    viewcode said:

    [deleted: confused @geoffw with @Leon. Apologies to both]

    Perhaps they are both oddly flattered ?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,672
    Ghedebrav said:

    Completely off topic but just got dad and lad seats at Wembley for this Sunday’s League 2 playoff final. £75 all in for category 2 seats, which is not bad really. It’ll be his first trip to Wembley; fully expect 35k+ County fans there with us (dunno what Carlisle will bring; 20k maybe?). Expecting a glorious day in the sunshine, hopefully cheering Stockport on to a second successive promotion.

    All those moaning Minnies who decry the playoff system can get in the sea/bin. They’re brilliant and make for fantastic occasions.

    I'm going to Wembley on Monday to see the mighty Wednesday take on the Dingles.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,367
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    [deleted: confused @geoffw with @Leon. Apologies to both]

    Perhaps they are both oddly flattered ?
    No reason Leon should be

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,805
    Doesn’t look good for South Wales Police;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-65681556
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Sensible
    What's the motivation for this? Not really in Tory self-interest.
    Postal votes are open to abuse. See the recent BBC article.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,079
    edited May 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Though it must be said SKS still isn't exactly setting the world alight and will not be swept into Downing St on a wave of euphoria from the masses like the blessed Tony.

    Which is another reason I can see trouble ahead for Labour in the 2024-2029 Parliament..

    You could have said the same about Cameron in 2010. Indeed, many Labour commentators assumed Labour were bound to come back in 2015. And look how that turned out.
    If the Tories are going to come back and win 2029 they'd need to realise why they actually lost, sort their shit out (including ensuring the ERG have no influence whatsoever), and elect a leader is who isn't a lunatic, is likeable, and has the gravitas to be PM. But if NatCon is anything to go by it's more likely the loons will be running show post-defeat, which means they will lose in 28/29.
    And given that the NatCon wing are already setting the narrative, that will be hard.

    What would a Shadow Cabinet that was trying to win in 2029 look like anyway? Johnson and co have gutted the Conservatives far more effectively than Corbyn ever did.
    Speakers were mocking Cameron and One Nation Conservatism at NatCon. It will be years before genuine One Nation Tories (not Sunak - he only seems a moderate because actual One Nation Tories have either been neutered or purged) get any semblance of control over the party again.
    In fairness it took Labour six years post defeat to get to Corbyn; the Tories are getting their ‘unelectable lunatic fringe’ phase in before they’ve even lost!
    Sunak is no more a lunatic than Gordon Brown as PM was and Labour shifted ever left after Brown lost for a decade
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,412
    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Government actually reacts to criticism, and proposes a sensible solution that addresses the issues raised. Who’d have thought it?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,375

    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Sensible
    What's the motivation for this? Not really in Tory self-interest.
    Postal votes are open to abuse. See the recent BBC article.
    +1 most of the known fraud cases have been with postal votes. Whether it changes anything beyond some paperwork every 3 years we will have to wait and see.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,079

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Suella makes even student William Hague look cool there (though he managed to do the triple of President of the Oxford Union and Conservative Association and a 1st class degree, I think she just managed President of CUCA with alleged dodgy voting)
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,089

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I wonder how she got from there to wishing to take over the world?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,672
    Omnium said:

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I wonder how she got from there to wishing to take over the world?
    CUCA could be a vicious rite of passage.

    I avoided student politics, glad I did.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,551
    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    The polls suggest otherwise;

    https://www.whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls-uk-eu/
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2023
    ping said:

    Doesn’t look good for South Wales Police;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-65681556

    The tories are ideologically incapable of solving these kinds of problems.

    Untrammelled free markets are a disaster.

    Hopefully Starmer will be prepared to legislate, regulate and fund trading standards etc.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658

    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Sensible
    What's the motivation for this? Not really in Tory self-interest.
    Postal votes are open to abuse. See the recent BBC article.
    But in person voting isn't. Tighten up postal voting and revert to ID free in person voting. There you go, job done!
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    Nigelb said:
    I know de mortuis nil nisi bonum, but I thought Bernthal was the best Punisher. However Stevenson was good when you needed mass and menace, and I liked him in Rome.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,398
    Politico.com - ‘Blood in the water for DeSantis’: Trump world embraces Tim Scott’s candidacy

    The former president’s team views virtually every ‘24 development through the prism of whether it helps or hurts Ron DeSantis.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/22/trump-tim-scott-2024-00098292

    . . . . Trump aides have been buoyed in recent days by signs that the ‘24 primary field is about to get crowded. Scott has jumped in and DeSantis and former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, an ally turned foe of Trump, are also expected to announce bids soon. There is a belief, internally, that any new entrant will take voters away from the Florida governor (Trump’s closest competitor for the nomination). The challenge they have is to decide which of those candidates to badger or welcome.

    “The general thinking is that Scott getting in is another sign that there is blood in the water for DeSantis — it’s no coincidence that multiple people are getting in the ring in the last few days,” another adviser to Trump said.

    On Monday, after Scott’s announcement, Trump himself put out a conciliatory statement, but one that also took a swipe at DeSantis. “Good luck to Senator Tim Scott in entering the Republican Presidential Primary Race,” it read. “It is rapidly loading up with lots of people, and Tim is a big step up from Ron DeSanctimonious, who is totally unelectable. I got Opportunity Zones done with Tim, a big deal that has been highly successful. Good luck Tim!”

    SSI - Seeing as how Tim Scott is really running for Vice President, he just might be a better bet for 2024 GOP VP nomination, than other alternative touted on this thread.

    For one thing, he's actually WON a big-time, statewide election.

    Another thing that is very clear, is that Trump and his henchpeople are at least as frit of Ron DeSantis, as Blue Meanies on PB and beyond are of Keir Starmer.

    Ragging on & raging about RDS being the GOP equivalent of Tory Keir Fear.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,089

    Omnium said:

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I wonder how she got from there to wishing to take over the world?
    CUCA could be a vicious rite of passage.

    I avoided student politics, glad I did.
    I have to doubt your wisdom. Cuca is as you say, but rather pointless. I can't imagine the Union has lowered its standards - they let anyone in apart from people they don't like, and people they don't like would be best illustrated by the shabby attire worn by our now Home Secretary in that picture. Not he slightest question of Pitt club influence of course.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,672
    The leader of a First World War charity has been accused of telling a whistleblower that most members “don’t give a s***” about a dispute involving a branch chairman sharing racist and sexist messages.

    Tony Bolton, chairman of the Western Front Association (WFA), which promotes commemoration of the conflict, has been told he is sowing “division and acrimony” by welcoming a disgraced former trustee at meetings.

    The charity’s national executive committee, led by Bolton, took over a year to revoke the membership of Jonathan d’Hooghe, a former chairman of the Lincoln branch, after it received reports about the racist and sexist messages he had sent to fellow members in a WhatsApp group.

    D’Hooghe was removed as a trustee on the executive committee within two weeks of the whistleblower reporting the messages in July 2021, but he remained chairman of the Lincoln branch until October 2022, when his WFA membership was revoked after an independent inquiry.

    Eric Martin Gibson, a member of the group, reported 54 messages sent between April 2020 and July 2021. These included d’Hooghe posting an Enid Blyton-style book cover of three golliwogs captioned: “Missing Penalties, a Tale of Three N***ers Who Didn’t Have a Clue.” The message was shared after England’s defeat in the European Championships final, in which three black players missed penalties. As well as racist messages, there were many more featuring sexual and misogynistic material. Gibson first reported them to Garry Trown, the charity’s trustee responsible for branch co-ordination. Trown reported them to the executive committee.

    D’Hooghe offered to stand down as branch chairman but his local committee “unanimously agreed” to back him, and instead removed Trown and Gibson from the branch mailing list. D’Hooghe, in his defence, said the messages “provided humour and mental wellbeing” during the “dark days of lockdown”. He added that the posts were “squaddie banter . . . not to be taken seriously”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/war-charity-chief-dismissed-row-over-racist-messages-j87ffh5pf
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I wonder how she got from there to wishing to take over the world?
    This is why we need a zero tolerance approach to these sorts of offences.

    None of this "three strikes" snowflake nonsense. If we sent these people at the first opportunity to the International Court of Crimes Against Fashion in Milan, we could knock it on the head like that. But these people get away with it, feel invincible, and next thing you know...
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,461
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Leon said:

    “The vast majority of economists, including me, thought Brexit would make the UK considerably less open to both trade and migration with the EU, but somewhat more so to the rest of the world. We were right. We also thought that the downsides of the former would outweigh the upside of the latter. We were wrong.

    “In fact, the new post-Brexit migration system has achieved its key objectives. By ending free movement, it has reduced the flow of relatively lower skilled and lower paid workers to some sectors. But by liberalising migration flows from the rest of the world, it has substantially increased those coming to work in the NHS, the care sector, and high-skilled and high-paid roles in information and communications technology, finance and professional services.”

    Well I never

    Jonathan Portes showing he's an original thinker unencumbered by partisan politics. Great piece. To some extent this is a vindication of Dom Cummings also.
    Jonathan Portes is one of the few remainer commentators (or commentators full stop) who actually cares about the data, and will only blame or praise brexit what he actually thinks is down to brexit. David Smith, the economics editor of The Times is a similar bright spot in the landscape.
    David Smith’s weekly column was a regular case study for my A-level economics class - in 1995!
    His book on UK macro policy in the 80s was really good. I met him at a conference a few years back and told him it was one of the things that inspired me to study economics at Uni. Nice bloke.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,551

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I'm not seeing a problem here.

    Stuart (NatSci)
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,461

    Omnium said:

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I wonder how she got from there to wishing to take over the world?
    CUCA could be a vicious rite of passage.

    I avoided student politics, glad I did.
    You were well out of it. CoLS wasn't much better.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,367
    edited May 2023

    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Sam Coates Sky

    @SamCoatesSky
    Sunak government go further on voter ID for elections

    Written statement just published unveiling plans to mandate ID for postal and proxy votes, and to make people apply for postal votes every three years.

    https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-05-23/hcws791

    Sensible
    What's the motivation for this? Not really in Tory self-interest.
    Postal votes are open to abuse. See the recent BBC article.
    But in person voting isn't. Tighten up postal voting and revert to ID free in person voting. There you go, job done!
    Voting in person on the day gives one a satisfying feeling of doing one's civic duty. I switched from postal to normal voting because postal voting felt somehow sneaky and private.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,715
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Rejoin just ain’t gonna happen. It’s FAR too difficult and the EU would rightly insist that we join the euro and schenghen to make sure we don’t change our minds yet again - and there’s no way we are joining the euro

    We will settle into something like Switzerland, ish
    Are we happy with this great and storied nation of ours striving to be like Switzerland?
    Actually yes. In so far as not wanting to impose our will on other parts of the world. Would you be happy with the UK being more like the US, China or Russia throwing its weight around where it wasn't wanted?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658
    ping said:

    Doesn’t look good for South Wales Police;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-65681556

    My thoughts in this case are with South Wales Police, and those law abiding residents who are having their property torched.

    On the other hand I suppose, it's a shame for the scallys on a scooter, but live like a t**t, die like a t**t.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301
    .

    Politico.com - ‘Blood in the water for DeSantis’: Trump world embraces Tim Scott’s candidacy

    The former president’s team views virtually every ‘24 development through the prism of whether it helps or hurts Ron DeSantis.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/22/trump-tim-scott-2024-00098292

    . . . . Trump aides have been buoyed in recent days by signs that the ‘24 primary field is about to get crowded....


    ...Another thing that is very clear, is that Trump and his henchpeople are at least as frit of Ron DeSantis, as Blue Meanies on PB and beyond are of Keir Starmer.

    Ragging on & raging about RDS being the GOP equivalent of Tory Keir Fear.

    I don't think "fear" is accurate.
    Just SOP to gun for the rival with the highest numbers and most cash.

    If they have anything to really fear, it's their guy in front of a jury.

  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,089

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I'm not seeing a problem here.

    Stuart (NatSci)
    Looflush blue on lootablet blue will always struggle as a colour combo.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,114
    ping said:

    Doesn’t look good for South Wales Police;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-65681556

    That's a horror show :( . Hoping for calm, but everyone is going to have to work twice as hard to achieve that.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,141

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
    Far from Brexit being a racist project it turns out that the only time that Vote Leave was telling the truth was when they told minority voters that voting Leave would mean more immigration from the Commonwealth. And they've even got Leon on board for more immigration. Fair play to them, genuinely.
    It's a bizarre scenario isn't it. Brexit delivers greater diversity and more immigration. Has the bus changed its livery mid journey? Where's it going now? Are people allowed to get off? I ask because although there are liberal pro-immigration Leavers (esp on here) they are not a majority of those who voted for the project in 2016.
  • Options

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I'm not seeing a problem here.

    Stuart (NatSci)
    You and Suella must have missed the mandatory lecture series by Professor Selina Scott and Dr Jeff Banks that was running at that time. Would've set the pair of you right on a few things.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,558
    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Dislike of Brexit coupled with no desire for Rejoin leads inevitably to the one very obvious conclusion: There was and is no real, deep thought out desire to settle for either Remain or Brexit. The only majority there can be is for a position between those two poles - the one position which was not on the exam paper in 2016.

    The reason for this is evident. Once the relevant thinking has been done, there is a majority in favour of a European FTA to a maximal degree - including most elements of the SM. But there isn't and never will be agreement with political, fiscal, monetary and economic integration and union, or for FOM.

    Of the thinkable futures a reformed EU to allow for this is the best. Second best is a unique UK Europe deal (which many Brexit supporters legitimately expected); third best is EFTA/EEA; fourth best is Switzerland.

    If Sir K happens to be an as yet undiscerned political genius of premier magnitude we shall get to one of these destinations. We need Blair, Thatcher, Attlee, Major, Obama and Clinton all rolled into one, and only the good bits.

  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,577

    ping said:

    Doesn’t look good for South Wales Police;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-65681556

    My thoughts in this case are with South Wales Police, and those law abiding residents who are having their property torched.

    On the other hand I suppose, it's a shame for the scallys on a scooter, but live like a t**t, die like a t**t.
    What would it take for some of the fools here to stop shouting their mouths off based on ignorance of the facts?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,561

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I'm not seeing a problem here.

    Stuart (NatSci)
    You and Suella must have missed the mandatory lecture series by Professor Selina Scott and Dr Jeff Banks that was running at that time. Would've set the pair of you right on a few things.
    The fragrant Miss Scott doesn't get enough mentions on these pages.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,612
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance
    Perhaps. But let's do the Big Brexit Apology first, given I've designed it and everything. We can road-test it on here. Match each PB remainer with 'their' PB leaver who will deliver the (brief but heartfelt) apology to them personally. I bags you. No rush but when you're ready.
    You chose the wrong day to ask for an apology (not that you were ever going to get one)

    The guardian has turned. Brexit = good
    Sold as a way to reduce immigration but good because it's done the opposite?
    Far from Brexit being a racist project it turns out that the only time that Vote Leave was telling the truth was when they told minority voters that voting Leave would mean more immigration from the Commonwealth. And they've even got Leon on board for more immigration. Fair play to them, genuinely.
    It's a bizarre scenario isn't it. Brexit delivers greater diversity and more immigration. Has the bus changed its livery mid journey? Where's it going now? Are people allowed to get off? I ask because although there are liberal pro-immigration Leavers (esp on here) they are not a majority of those who voted for the project in 2016.
    It was one of Vote Leave's campaign points:

    https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15

    Vote Leave is hoping to secure the backing of British Asians by telling them that if Britain quits the EU, it will mean more immigration from elsewhere in the world.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,715
    algarkirk said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sorry, from PT for those asking me how the Big Brexit Apology will work. I've given this some thought and I'd suggest as follows:

    By my calculations because of differential death rates the number of people who voted Leave and Remain in the 2016 referendum is identical at 15,674,232 apiece. Matched up by algorithm this generates 7,837,116 pairs, one Remainer and one Leaver, like Tinder except it’s done at random not on looks or compatibility. The results are mailed out (each Remainer told who ‘their’ Leaver is and vice versa) and contact details are included so a meet-up for each duo can be arranged. 4 weeks are allowed for this, otherwise there are punishments. Everyone complies (not fancying any of the punishments) and the stage is set for the business end of the exercise.

    Let’s assume I’m matched with a Leaver from Dudley called Trevor. We exchange texts and decide that he’ll come to Hampstead because I don’t want to go to Dudley. I tell him Wednesday 10.30 sharp at the Coffee Cup.

    Trevor arrives (thankfully not as hirsute as his picture) and joins me at my table. I put down my Guardian and give him my fullest. Straight off he does the necessary. “I’m truly sorry,” he says. That’s all that’s required. There’s no need to make a meal of it. The point of this is to heal not foster further ill-feeling. I receive his brief but heartfelt offering in similar generous spirit. “It’s ok, Trevor,” I say, “to be human is to err.” He looks relieved. It’s as if a huge weight has been lifted from him. I smile and ask what sort of bespoke decaf latte he wants.

    The two of us then pass a pleasant half hour getting to know each other. No politics of course. It could be he likes Boris Johnson (being from Dudley) and we don’t want to risk something like that spoiling the vibe between us. The objective is to part on friendly terms even though our paths are unlikely to cross again. Which is what we do. Remainer Me and Leaver Trevor part on the best of terms. The apology has cleared the decks for this to happen. I feel better, he feels better. We can MOVE ON. And as it is for us so it is for the entire country, assuming the other 7,837,115 meets go equally well – which they surely will.

    Alternatively, in a few years you will have a
    Brexiphany - a moment of piercing spiritual insight when you and all the other Remoaner idiots realise you were wrong and Brexit was right

    You will come to us Brexiteers to be shrived, and we shall generously forgive you, insisting merely that your left buttock is modestly tattooed with the smiling face of Nigel Farage, symbolising your penance

    How many Brexiteers will be alive in a few years' time though?

    Not many who will admit to it, going on current trends.

    Even if you allow for the possibility that Brexit has objectively been a good thing, the steadily growing will of the people is to regard it as a mistake. Doesn't Matter- the public are right, even when they're wrong. And the people who persuaded the public to do this in the first place are pretty much all diminished in the public's eyes.

    To take a popular analogy, the country is not only back on the pill, but it's got a headache.
    It's odd but the dislike of Brexit does not seem to translate into a desire to rejoin. I suspect that the EU is not seen by most voters as a beacon to lead the country back to the future. I think that right now the overwhelming political view of most people is one giant "meh". I was entertaining a large group of 25 friends for a memorial celebration of my former partner's life here this weekend - mostly aged late 40-50 and that seemed very much their general attitude. They're a fairly m/c group based in London surroundings. What struck me most was just their general lack of interest. But they were huge fun to be with for this almost 70 year old.


    Dislike of Brexit coupled with no desire for Rejoin leads inevitably to the one very obvious conclusion: There was and is no real, deep thought out desire to settle for either Remain or Brexit. The only majority there can be is for a position between those two poles - the one position which was not on the exam paper in 2016.

    The reason for this is evident. Once the relevant thinking has been done, there is a majority in favour of a European FTA to a maximal degree - including most elements of the SM. But there isn't and never will be agreement with political, fiscal, monetary and economic integration and union, or for FOM.

    Of the thinkable futures a reformed EU to allow for this is the best. Second best is a unique UK Europe deal (which many Brexit supporters legitimately expected); third best is EFTA/EEA; fourth best is Switzerland.

    If Sir K happens to be an as yet undiscerned political genius of premier magnitude we shall get to one of these destinations. We need Blair, Thatcher, Attlee, Major, Obama and Clinton all rolled into one, and only the good bits.

    The first is a complete non starter. A reform to the extent you are suggesting is simply never going to happen. And why should it? Why should the EU bend its will to our desires? It is not politiclly nor economically viable.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,658

    what this? it’s just an article from the year 2000 about suella fernandes, president of the cambridge university conservative association, who was accused of vote rigging and responded with a reassuring “you can’t prove anything”



    https://twitter.com/alexandrakuri/status/1660967887669010435/photo/1

    Hello? Is that the Fashion Police? I'm calling to report a very serious crime.
    I'm not seeing a problem here.

    Stuart (NatSci)
    Some people, maybe yourself, could pull off a grey fleece over a pink shell-suit ensemble.
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    pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2023

    ping said:

    Doesn’t look good for South Wales Police;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-65681556

    My thoughts in this case are with South Wales Police, and those law abiding residents who are having their property torched.

    On the other hand I suppose, it's a shame for the scallys on a scooter, but live like a t**t, die like a t**t.
    Kids will be kids. The state should recognise that and manage the risk.

    I’m done with those yelling “freedom!” whining about a “nanny state” etc etc.

    They’re playing with kids lives, here.
This discussion has been closed.