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David Davis slams the voter ID requirement – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,372

    Sean_F said:

    @Topping et al, being a racehorse is one of the best lives an animal can have. They are absolutely cosseted.

    In general, domesticated animals enjoy much better lives than wild animals, which is why it’s so easy to domesticate them.

    And, death rates are much lower for domestication. Wild horses suffer far more fatalities from bad jumps and broken bones in herds.
    Pretty well all mammals will give up the delights of living in the wild, in return for food and shelter.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,794
    Mr. kle4, sorry for slow response, been afk.

    It was also down to Norman inheritance, I think. The elder brother inherited what the father himself had inherited, the second son got what the father had conquered. This did not thrill Robert Curthose who, as you said, had risen in rebellion against his father.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,369
    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
    Hasn’t the fall of Bakhmut been imminent for about the last six months? That in itself suggests that it’s not really going well for the Russians.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited April 2023
    OT but less so than everything else on the thread, have we done the various shenanigans around the Iowa Caucuses? If I've got this right:

    - Dems plan to allow voting by mail so you can still take part even if you have a job or lack a babysitter
    - Some people in NH say this makes the caucus into a primary, so they'll have to move the date of their primary up ahead of the Iowa one
    - GOP trying to pass a bill to stop the Dems doing voting by mail
    - While they're at it, Trumpist Republicans plan to make it so that you can't vote unless you've registered, for that party, 70 days before the vote. This prevents independent voters or anti-Trump Republicans who didn't identify GOP during the Trump years from registering as Republican on the day of the vote, which they would normally be able to do
    - It's not really clear how much of this is legal under the state constitution, so everyone's going to sue each other
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,855
    edited April 2023

    A bit after the event, but I just wanted to say that as someone much more Irish than Joe Biden, I am not Irish.

    Heck, my wife is probably more Irish than Biden, and she's Indian.

    Obama is more Irish than Biden.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_No_One_as_Irish_as_Barack_O'Bama
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
    I'm not sure what particular point was even being made there - thing that has been ongoing for 14 months not getting as much attention as it was at the start? People get used to tragic and terrible things, that's life.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    OT but less so than everything else on the thread, have we done the various shenanigans around the Iowa Caucuses? If I've got this right:

    - Dems plan to allow voting by mail so you can still take part even if you have a job or lack a babysitter
    - Some people in NH say this makes the caucus into a primary, so they'll have to move the date of their primary up ahead of the Iowa one
    - GOP trying to pass a bill to stop the Dems doing voting by mail
    - While they're at it, Trumpist Republicans plan to make it so that you can't vote unless you've registered, for that party, 70 days before the vote. This prevents independent voters or anti-Trump Republicans who didn't identify GOP during the Trump years from registering as Republican on the day of the vote, which they would normally be able to do
    - It's not really clear how much of this is legal under the state constitution, so everyone's going to sue each other

    There must be a decent chance of one or more full blow constitutional crisisees during the 2024 election. It's going to be fantastic television.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    OT but less so than everything else on the thread, have we done the various shenanigans around the Iowa Caucuses? If I've got this right:

    - Dems plan to allow voting by mail so you can still take part even if you have a job or lack a babysitter
    - Some people in NH say this makes the caucus into a primary, so they'll have to move the date of their primary up ahead of the Iowa one
    - GOP trying to pass a bill to stop the Dems doing voting by mail
    - While they're at it, Trumpist Republicans plan to make it so that you can't vote unless you've registered, for that party, 70 days before the vote. This prevents independent voters or anti-Trump Republicans who didn't identify GOP during the Trump years from registering as Republican on the day of the vote, which they would normally be able to do
    - It's not really clear how much of this is legal under the state constitution, so everyone's going to sue each other

    I recall a John Oliver piece back in 2016 on just how convoluted primary and caucus rules were, and that was without getting into things like the order of the events and methods of voting. Following it all must be a real headache.

    Interesting the conclusion of that piece was about how once it was done people stopped caring (epitomised by Trump's comment that he used to call it a fix but he stopped because he won), whereas from the looks of it both parties actually have decided to try quite a few things differently this time, for better and worse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416
    edited April 2023

    OT but less so than everything else on the thread, have we done the various shenanigans around the Iowa Caucuses? If I've got this right:

    - Dems plan to allow voting by mail so you can still take part even if you have a job or lack a babysitter
    - Some people in NH say this makes the caucus into a primary, so they'll have to move the date of their primary up ahead of the Iowa one
    - GOP trying to pass a bill to stop the Dems doing voting by mail
    - While they're at it, Trumpist Republicans plan to make it so that you can't vote unless you've registered, for that party, 70 days before the vote. This prevents independent voters or anti-Trump Republicans who didn't identify GOP during the Trump years from registering as Republican on the day of the vote, which they would normally be able to do
    - It's not really clear how much of this is legal under the state constitution, so everyone's going to sue each other

    It's a good job then the legal system is completely unaffected by the current shambolic state of American politics.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978

    The latest from Keir:

    "34 years since the Hillsborough disaster, I'm thinking of those for whom the pain is still so raw and for whom injustice remains.

    My Labour government will create a Hillsborough Law. Victims of major tragedies must get the same legal support as the authorities which failed them."

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1647163872149909506

    The comments below are not wholly supportive...

    He made a front page.


    It does show how deranged the cult like behaviour of Liverpudlians are that they have to asterik The Sun.
    Never go full Boris.

    Tbf the astrisk replaces 'hittyfuckingarsewipeTheSu' which is a) quite long and b) not really fit for a front page, even in Liverpool.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,087
    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If you are a Don’t Know or Not Sure now, then you are likely to be Tory-leaning. Clearly, some of those are now returning home and that is also very clearly down to Sunak. But the real challenge the Tories have is winning back that part of their 2019 vote that has already jumped to Labour. As yet, there is no indication this is happening in any meaningful way. If it doesn’t, Labour takes power - possibly with a small overall majority if Scotland is seriously in play, but more likely as a minority government.

    If that is the case, does Sunak resign as Tory leader or stay on? Will he be able to? Has the Truss/Johnson tendency in the Conservative party been beaten or is it just biding its time?

    Taking the figures that are in the article, even Conservative + Don't Know gives 34%. The Labour figure isn't reported, but given that percentages have to add up to 100, I think we can assume that it's more than 34.

    And thinking of posters here, the long-term Conservative members/activists who wobbled over late BoJo and Truss are back on board,but I'm not seeing any shift amongst those who decided "time for a change" earlier than that. If anything, there's a hardening of sentiment there.
    I may be misremembering, but I think in the latest Ipsos-Mori poll, something like 65% said the next election would be a change one. In a similar vein, over 50% of respondents in the R&W poll regularly state that a general election should be called now. Those are indicators that look very bad for the Tories.

    It’s worth remembering that even in 1997 the Tory press was running stories that Don’t Knows could decide the outcome.

    You need to give your supporters hope. Sunak has undoubtedly given some to his party. Right now, though, I just don’t see a different election outcome to the one I’ve been predicting for a couple of years: a Labour minority government. If anything, Scotland coming into play tilts things further towards a small Labour majority.

    Yup. And had you offered that to Labour on New Year's Day 2020, I suspect they would have bitten your arm off. Or whatever the vegan woke equivalent of that is.

    A deer's hoof.
    Woke, perhaps, but hardly vegan.
    I thought we had been assured by A Correspondent that venison was the Woke Vegan approved meat?
    Well, @Dura_Ace is in a better position to judge whether a particular meat is vegan or not. But AIUI the whole idea of veganism is you don't eat any animal products.
    The question is settled.



    It's quite tragic that you seem to have nothing better to do than search and quote my old posts (which I have no clue how to do) and troll old ladies on the parish council.
    If he used his time more wisely he could attain a totally non-tragic 50k+ posts on here.
    Let's not go down that road.

    (Glances at post count in mild surprise.)
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    The latest from Keir:

    "34 years since the Hillsborough disaster, I'm thinking of those for whom the pain is still so raw and for whom injustice remains.

    My Labour government will create a Hillsborough Law. Victims of major tragedies must get the same legal support as the authorities which failed them."

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1647163872149909506

    The comments below are not wholly supportive...

    He made a front page.


    It does show how deranged the cult like behaviour of Liverpudlians are that they have to asterik The Sun.
    Never go full Boris.

    Tbf the astrisk replaces 'hittyfuckingarsewipeTheSu' which is a) quite long and b) not really fit for a front page, even in Liverpool.
    Occasionally that auto-replace makes their weather reports interesting reading.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    Well of course people have, no one can sustain that level of interest and outrage permanently, it doesn't mean anything. Do you think those who were breathless and furious as you put it should have been expected to still be so after more than a year? That'd be absurd.

    I've actually been astonished that political leaders have sustained support as much and as long as they have, given the grinding nature of the warfare, and for the most part the public support has remained in place.

    So the 'lost interest' point is partly true, but I'd argue the level of interest lost is far less than might have been expected, especially after the lack of dramatic occurrences for at least 6 months.
    As far as I can work out this is currently a non stop meat grinder killing hundreds of thousands of people and probably will be so indefinetely. I think that was actually the stated strategic objective of the US, they wanted to just blunt Russias military capabilities and exhaust their quest for imperial expansion and power. I cannot see anything to boast about for either country, it doesn't seem to be going well for either side.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    A bit after the event, but I just wanted to say that as someone much more Irish than Joe Biden, I am not Irish.

    Heck, my wife is probably more Irish than Biden, and she's Indian.

    As I understand it he is half Irish - his mother's ancestors all come from Ireland.
    Biden's visit to Ireland seems to have really discombobulated some English people. An Irish friend posted some really insane "cartoon" in the Times the other day, depicting Biden as a leprechaun! Just bonkers.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,042
    eek said:

    Utterly offtopic but following Broadwalk's topic the Telegraph has a great article today about the US making 155mm shells

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/15/us-arms-factory-pennsylvania-churning-out-shells-ukraine/

    I like the quote at the end - America at its best:

    “We are the arsenal of democracy and always will be, as far as I’m concerned.”
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Gadfly said:

    Just watching this history of England lecture series.

    Grim.

    Can you please provide a link?
    Sure.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/offers?benefitId=thegreatcourses
    Thanks!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    The latest from Keir:

    "34 years since the Hillsborough disaster, I'm thinking of those for whom the pain is still so raw and for whom injustice remains.

    My Labour government will create a Hillsborough Law. Victims of major tragedies must get the same legal support as the authorities which failed them."

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1647163872149909506

    The comments below are not wholly supportive...

    He made a front page.


    It does show how deranged the cult like behaviour of Liverpudlians are that they have to asterik The Sun.
    Never go full Boris.

    Tbf the astrisk replaces 'hittyfuckingarsewipeTheSu' which is a) quite long and b) not really fit for a front page, even in Liverpool.
    Liverpudlians' hatred of the Sun is fully justified by the entirely cynical way the "newspaper" libelled the recently killed victims of the Hillsborough tragedy in an effort to deflect blame from the people who killed them.
    I'm not Liverpudlian, and I still hate and despise the Sun for what they did. A nasty rag and no friend of the working class.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    edited April 2023

    The latest from Keir:

    "34 years since the Hillsborough disaster, I'm thinking of those for whom the pain is still so raw and for whom injustice remains.

    My Labour government will create a Hillsborough Law. Victims of major tragedies must get the same legal support as the authorities which failed them."

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1647163872149909506

    The comments below are not wholly supportive...

    Tin-eared Hillsborough comments aside, the most interesting phrase is "My Labour government". From such hubris it is a short step to a shadow budget and Sheffield rally. Stop listening to Lord sodding Mandelson!
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    edited April 2023
    The "Sunak to stay on after an honourably narrow election defeat" option, though not the trend these days, would be an option the Tory party and Sunak ought to think about very seriously.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Anyway, I've only peppered a few quids on longshots so far, including Minella Trump and Back on the Lash, but the one serious contender I like is Noble Yeats, so I've had a tenner on him.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited April 2023
    TOPPING said:

    btw well done was it @DougSeal (or @NerysHughes) who called the nurses strike decision.

    Not me. Nerys Hughes I think.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    A bit after the event, but I just wanted to say that as someone much more Irish than Joe Biden, I am not Irish.

    Heck, my wife is probably more Irish than Biden, and she's Indian.

    As I understand it he is half Irish - his mother's ancestors all come from Ireland.
    Biden's visit to Ireland seems to have really discombobulated some English people. An Irish friend posted some really insane "cartoon" in the Times the other day, depicting Biden as a leprechaun! Just bonkers.
    The American way of describing nationality is a bit weird to us but it is how they do it. By American standards Biden is Irish American. Different places use language differently shocker.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Gadfly said:

    Gadfly said:

    Just watching this history of England lecture series.

    Grim.

    Can you please provide a link?
    Sure.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/offers?benefitId=thegreatcourses
    Thanks!
    I should add that it's just an American academic talking at the camera, with a few maps and artefacts, but her explanations are lucid and well-structured.

    My wife finds it dull but I like it. Like a human wikipedia.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,369
    Pro_Rata said:

    The "Sunak to stay on after an honourably narrow election defeat" option, though not the trend these days, would be an option the Tory party and Sunak ought to think about very seriously.

    If the Tories win more seats than Labour, but are forced out of government because Labour are able to win more support from other parties, then I think it would make sense for Sunak to remain as leader. If they change leader then they would lose some of the moral force behind the argument that they won the election and should be the government.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Pro_Rata said:

    The "Sunak to stay on after an honourably narrow election defeat" option, though not the trend these days, would be an option the Tory party and Sunak ought to think about very seriously.

    It would be if they were able to consider it sensibly. However, the membership will explain their defeat as arising from not properly exploiting the benefits of Brexit. And they’ll vote accordingly for the next leader.
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 316
    On topic, just another desperate attempt for the Tories to cling on to power, and it probably will suppress a few votes, on to the national, ain't that a shame, vanillier, and Dunboyne for me
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,369

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
    Hasn’t the fall of Bakhmut been imminent for about the last six months? That in itself suggests that it’s not really going well for the Russians.
    This particular Russian offensive hasn't been going on quite that long, but it was supposed to end at the end of March with all of the Donbas under Russian control.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607
    It seems Russian troll capability is as degraded as Russian tank capability.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
    Hasn’t the fall of Bakhmut been imminent for about the last six months? That in itself suggests that it’s not really going well for the Russians.
    This particular Russian offensive hasn't been going on quite that long, but it was supposed to end at the end of March with all of the Donbas under Russian control.
    As I recall the SMO was supposed to have had the whole of Ukraine under Russian military occupation with a puppet government installed by the end of February 2022.

    Putin should really be a laughing stock.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,087
    .
    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Coronation row over hundreds of peers forbidden from wearing robes
    ...
    the decision was made by the King on advice from the Government

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2023/04/14/coronets-robes-peers-aristocracy-banned-king-coronation/ (£££)

    The plight of dukes unable to wear the coronation robes their families have stored for generations and not worn since 1953 might not make the next Labour campaign poster but does call into question what the coronation is for, if not for OTT pageantry. After all, Charles is already King.

    'Forbidden' on the advice of the government.
    Tory freedoms. 😊
    Conservatives do seem to retain a weird hankering after sumptuary laws.

    "The Memphis Police Department is introducing an eight-officer unit that will arrest unaccompanied minors that sell food, play loud music, are 'inappropriately dressed' or dancing in the street in Downtown Memphis" ..
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ldtestino/status/1647010575166087169
    You do realise memphis voted 64% democrat in 2020? Not sure you can blame this on republicans therefore
    Fair point. My bad.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992

    Last night’s Picard.

    There’s that one scene.

    You know the one I’m talking about.

    That scene was better than sex.

    I hesitate to ask what kind of sex you have been having, but are you sure you have been doing it right?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,503
    edited April 2023

    The latest from Keir:

    "34 years since the Hillsborough disaster, I'm thinking of those for whom the pain is still so raw and for whom injustice remains.

    My Labour government will create a Hillsborough Law. Victims of major tragedies must get the same legal support as the authorities which failed them."

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1647163872149909506

    The comments below are not wholly supportive...

    He made a front page.


    It does show how deranged the cult like behaviour of Liverpudlians are that they have to asterik The Sun.
    Never go full Boris.

    Tbf the astrisk replaces 'hittyfuckingarsewipeTheSu' which is a) quite long and b) not really fit for a front page, even in Liverpool.
    Liverpudlians' hatred of the Sun is fully justified by the entirely cynical way the "newspaper" libelled the recently killed victims of the Hillsborough tragedy in an effort to deflect blame from the people who killed them.
    I'm not Liverpudlian, and I still hate and despise the Sun for what they did. A nasty rag and no friend of the working class.
    Even in these days when few take or read newspapers SKS will recall that usually either the Sun happens to support the party that wins the GE, or the Sun's support helps secure a win. if I were SKS I would not conduct an experiment on the matter if I could help it.

    Politics is what it is. SKS secured the leadership by being a socialist (see his 10 principles at the time)

    https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

    and he will try to win power by making friends as far as possible with several million voters who didn't vote Labour in 2019 and 2017. The Sun speaks for a good number of them. He is serious about winning, and given the current moral state of the Tories (and the SNP) political purists should hold their noses and cheer him on.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    algarkirk said:

    The latest from Keir:

    "34 years since the Hillsborough disaster, I'm thinking of those for whom the pain is still so raw and for whom injustice remains.

    My Labour government will create a Hillsborough Law. Victims of major tragedies must get the same legal support as the authorities which failed them."

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1647163872149909506

    The comments below are not wholly supportive...

    He made a front page.


    It does show how deranged the cult like behaviour of Liverpudlians are that they have to asterik The Sun.
    Never go full Boris.

    Tbf the astrisk replaces 'hittyfuckingarsewipeTheSu' which is a) quite long and b) not really fit for a front page, even in Liverpool.
    Liverpudlians' hatred of the Sun is fully justified by the entirely cynical way the "newspaper" libelled the recently killed victims of the Hillsborough tragedy in an effort to deflect blame from the people who killed them.
    I'm not Liverpudlian, and I still hate and despise the Sun for what they did. A nasty rag and no friend of the working class.
    Even in these days when few take or read newspapers SKS will recall that usually either the Sun happens to support the party that wins the GE, or the Sun's support helps secure a win. if I were SKS I would not conduct an experiment on the matter if I could help it.

    Politics is what it is. SKS secured the leadership by being a socialist (see his 10 principles at the time)

    https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

    and he will try to win power by making friends as far as possible with several million voters who didn't vote Labour in 2019 and 2017. The Sun speaks for a good number of them. He is serious about winning, and given the current moral state of the Tories (and the SNP) political purists should hold their noses and cheer him on.
    I don't mind him writing in the Sun - I don't like it, but I know why he's doing it, and I am certainly in the hold my nose camp. I'd support him doing pretty much anything to win. He needs to do whatever it takes to get Labour's message across. But equally, let's not pretend that people don't have really good reasons to absolutely hate the Sun. What they did after Hillsborough was unforgivable.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219

    Anyway, I've only peppered a few quids on longshots so far, including Minella Trump and Back on the Lash, but the one serious contender I like is Noble Yeats, so I've had a tenner on him.

    I'm on Longhouse Poet and Cloudy Glen.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,099
    kle4 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    If the Tories insist on this sort of nonsense I think Labour should look at extending the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds. This would be controversial but far more defensible since it would lead to more people voting not less.

    I'm not a fan of 16-17 year olds voting but I regard it as a policy choice which is not that controversial.

    I do think though that while we get different rights and restrictions at different ages, the general trend seems more to extend the period of childhood and adolescence, and so giving voting rights would seem counter to that.
    Why aren’t you a fan? Genuine question. It’s something I’ve always been in favour of and I don’t really buy arguments that you need more life experience or whatever.

    Maybe more controversially, I think prisoners ought to be able to vote too.
    I think if we are saying 16 year olds are not mature enough to make life decisions as small as buying cigarettes or alcohol, and make a big push to ensure everyone is in education or training so very few enter the workforce at 16, then how can we argue they are ready for voting.

    I know total consistency is not possible, but I'd be in favour of lowering the voting age if we lowered other restrictions, because we'd be saying this is an age when we think you are old enough to decide major things by yourself.

    Since we seem not to be doing that I see the push for 16 year old voting as contradictory.

    However, i also wont kick up a fuss if it happens, especially as the point has already been conceded in some votes already.
    There are various steps on the way to adulthood. It makes sense for the more dangerous ones to be held back, like becoming addicted to nicotine. Voting is arguably a relatively safe act. Your one vote is massively diluted among everyone else’s, for starters. So, while I see where you’re coming from, I can see why it makes sense for the voting age to be younger than, say, the smoking age.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416
    Stocky said:

    Anyway, I've only peppered a few quids on longshots so far, including Minella Trump and Back on the Lash, but the one serious contender I like is Noble Yeats, so I've had a tenner on him.

    I'm on Longhouse Poet and Cloudy Glen.
    Then I hope they stay close together or your anatomy is likely to get very strained.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Last night’s Picard.

    There’s that one scene.

    You know the one I’m talking about.

    That scene was better than sex.

    I hesitate to ask what kind of sex you have been having, but are you sure you have been doing it right?
    Yes.

    The scene was that good.

    Thank God for the prime directive.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,852

    kle4 said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    If the Tories insist on this sort of nonsense I think Labour should look at extending the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds. This would be controversial but far more defensible since it would lead to more people voting not less.

    I'm not a fan of 16-17 year olds voting but I regard it as a policy choice which is not that controversial.

    I do think though that while we get different rights and restrictions at different ages, the general trend seems more to extend the period of childhood and adolescence, and so giving voting rights would seem counter to that.
    Why aren’t you a fan? Genuine question. It’s something I’ve always been in favour of and I don’t really buy arguments that you need more life experience or whatever.

    Maybe more controversially, I think prisoners ought to be able to vote too.
    I think if we are saying 16 year olds are not mature enough to make life decisions as small as buying cigarettes or alcohol, and make a big push to ensure everyone is in education or training so very few enter the workforce at 16, then how can we argue they are ready for voting.

    I know total consistency is not possible, but I'd be in favour of lowering the voting age if we lowered other restrictions, because we'd be saying this is an age when we think you are old enough to decide major things by yourself.

    Since we seem not to be doing that I see the push for 16 year old voting as contradictory.

    However, i also wont kick up a fuss if it happens, especially as the point has already been conceded in some votes already.
    There are various steps on the way to adulthood. It makes sense for the more dangerous ones to be held back, like becoming addicted to nicotine. Voting is arguably a relatively safe act. Your one vote is massively diluted among everyone else’s, for starters. So, while I see where you’re coming from, I can see why it makes sense for the voting age to be younger than, say, the smoking age.
    There was a huge chorus from the more Tory folk when the voting age was lowered to 16 in Scotland as far as was legally possible under devolution. Dispiriting to think we'll have this all over again on PB when it happens in England/UK as a whole for GEs. Like smoking in pubs and so on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,344
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    We were getting a much better class of troll than this. Is the world's second-smallest dicked leader even running out of manpower for his troll farms?

    The problem is we seem to be getting a new Troll every week - I much prefer it where they have 2 or 3 attempts so they realise how the site works and what they should post.

    Heck one of our beloved posters @malcolmg failed in their first 6 attempts and was only successful in her 7th iteration.

    Naughty
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
    Hasn’t the fall of Bakhmut been imminent for about the last six months? That in itself suggests that it’s not really going well for the Russians.
    This particular Russian offensive hasn't been going on quite that long, but it was supposed to end at the end of March with all of the Donbas under Russian control.
    As I recall the SMO was supposed to have had the whole of Ukraine under Russian military occupation with a puppet government installed by the end of February 2022.

    Putin should really be a laughing stock.
    An amusing record of what Russian cheerleaders expected can be found here:

    https://twitter.com/russophileLs

    I remember our own Topping being impressed by this map:

    https://twitter.com/russophileLs/status/1584537707581440000?cxt=HHwWgIDUmcuptP0rAAAA

    explaining how well Russia was supposedly doing back in March last year.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    No, because we haven't evolved to run in the same way
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,344

    Anyway, I've only peppered a few quids on longshots so far, including Minella Trump and Back on the Lash, but the one serious contender I like is Noble Yeats, so I've had a tenner on him.

    Yeats is one of my wife's choices, lot more weight than last year but still a chance though unusual to win carrying that amount.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,099

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    I haven't lost interest, but there's not much happening at the moment. The Russian offensive is slowly creeping forward in Bakhmut, but has largely come to a halt elsewhere after heavy losses. The Ukrainians haven't started their counteroffensive yet. So there's not much to say.

    When the Ukrainian counteroffensive starts there will be news again.
    Hasn’t the fall of Bakhmut been imminent for about the last six months? That in itself suggests that it’s not really going well for the Russians.
    This particular Russian offensive hasn't been going on quite that long, but it was supposed to end at the end of March with all of the Donbas under Russian control.
    As I recall the SMO was supposed to have had the whole of Ukraine under Russian military occupation with a puppet government installed by the end of February 2022.

    Putin should really be a laughing stock.
    An amusing record of what Russian cheerleaders expected can be found here:

    https://twitter.com/russophileLs

    I remember our own Topping being impressed by this map:

    https://twitter.com/russophileLs/status/1584537707581440000?cxt=HHwWgIDUmcuptP0rAAAA

    explaining how well Russia was supposedly doing back in March last year.
    I wish the Russian cheerleaders were more the pom-pom type…

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,503
    edited April 2023

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    No, because we haven't evolved to run in the same way
    I am sure plenty of humans have been running away from predators, including other humans, in the past too.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,377
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    We were getting a much better class of troll than this. Is the world's second-smallest dicked leader even running out of manpower for his troll farms?

    The problem is we seem to be getting a new Troll every week - I much prefer it where they have 2 or 3 attempts so they realise how the site works and what they should post.

    Heck one of our beloved posters @malcolmg failed in their first 6 attempts and was only successful in her 7th iteration.

    Naughty
    Thought you might appreciate that joke...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,344
    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    We were getting a much better class of troll than this. Is the world's second-smallest dicked leader even running out of manpower for his troll farms?

    The problem is we seem to be getting a new Troll every week - I much prefer it where they have 2 or 3 attempts so they realise how the site works and what they should post.

    Heck one of our beloved posters @malcolmg failed in their first 6 attempts and was only successful in her 7th iteration.

    Naughty
    Thought you might appreciate that joke...
    I did indeed
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,503

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    It's complicated and ambiguous. Humans are evolved creatures too, and lots of them run no doubt originally to make sure that your enemy was eaten by the sabre toothed tiger and not you; is this evidence that they run, often in some sort of competition with themselves or others, only to be frightened and stressed and that they are deluding themselves?

    I would be slow to draw either comforting or uncomfortable conclusions.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342
    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    I want Trump to win today.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,577
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    At the moment there isn't much happening. The Russians clearly can't advance and the Ukrainians haven't, maybe because they can't, maybe because they're waiting on something (or both). The war therefore is less interesting in a news sense.

    If the Ukrainians and the Russians are both stuck, we have a stalemate. We don't know where that would lead - whether a negotiated peace could be managed (seems unlikely, bluntly) that would allow the lifting of sanctions, or whether sanctions will persist and eventually Russia will suffer enough to offer meaningful concessions. Or, indeed, whether changes of government in the West might weaken support for Ukraine and allow Russia to consolidate their hold on the east bank.

    There isn't really a lot to say until we have more data.
    As much as anyone can tell (those tasked with gathering the data are prone to falling out of high windows), the Russian economy is going to have a disastrous 2023. The extent to which Russia can just "tough it out" will be tested to destruction.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    That’s not true. I used to ride a lot around the world, on my travels, and still do occasionally. I’ve been on gallops where the horse accelerated without any encouragement, and I got the absolute sense the horse was enjoying the experience - the sheer thrill of running as fast as it could. Young animals experiment with their physical capabilities for fun - it makes total evolutionary sense - the knowledge might come in handy later

    Think of the weird determination of human children to climb trees. My daughters used to do it all the time, sometimes so exuberantly it freaked me out. For them it was play, and also excitingly risky. And also a useful skill to have if a predator comes along

  • I want Trump to win today.

    Yes Vladimir.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Pro_Rata said:

    The "Sunak to stay on after an honourably narrow election defeat" option, though not the trend these days, would be an option the Tory party and Sunak ought to think about very seriously.

    I think it would have to be very narrow indeed for him to survive long enough to attempt it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,577
    malcolmg said:

    Anyway, I've only peppered a few quids on longshots so far, including Minella Trump and Back on the Lash, but the one serious contender I like is Noble Yeats, so I've had a tenner on him.

    Yeats is one of my wife's choices, lot more weight than last year but still a chance though unusual to win carrying that amount.
    I misread that as your wife carrying a lot more weight than last year!

    Trust she is keeping well after her health travails.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kle4 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The "Sunak to stay on after an honourably narrow election defeat" option, though not the trend these days, would be an option the Tory party and Sunak ought to think about very seriously.

    I think it would have to be very narrow indeed for him to survive long enough to attempt it.
    He wouldn’t bother in any event. He’ll have ticked the PM box and will go on to his next career move, probably in Silicon Valley. Downing Street is just a staging post.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    A bit after the event, but I just wanted to say that as someone much more Irish than Joe Biden, I am not Irish.

    Heck, my wife is probably more Irish than Biden, and she's Indian.

    As I understand it he is half Irish - his mother's ancestors all come from Ireland.
    Biden's visit to Ireland seems to have really discombobulated some English people. An Irish friend posted some really insane "cartoon" in the Times the other day, depicting Biden as a leprechaun! Just bonkers.
    The American way of describing nationality is a bit weird to us but it is how they do it. By American standards Biden is Irish American. Different places use language differently shocker.
    Yes. He identifies more with that side of his heritage whilst still very patriotic as an American. It's how they do it. Charming if anything.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465

    I want Trump to win today.

    Yes Vladimir.
    120/1

    Quids in
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    Leon said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    That’s not true. I used to ride a lot around the world, on my travels, and still do occasionally. I’ve been on gallops where the horse accelerated without any encouragement, and I got the absolute sense the horse was enjoying the experience - the sheer thrill of running as fast as it could. Young animals experiment with their physical capabilities for fun - it makes total evolutionary sense - the knowledge might come in handy later

    Think of the weird determination of human children to climb trees. My daughters used to do it all the time, sometimes so exuberantly it freaked me out. For them it was play, and also excitingly risky. And also a useful skill to have if a predator comes along

    That's a horse running on its own. A horse running in a group is different. They're herd animals, and that's a herd response.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    Somewhat astonishingly, Bolt’s records, especialy in the 200m, are looking increasingly under threat. Bolt’s own Junior (U20) record at that distance, was beaten by nearly half a second last year, by an 18-year-old American called Kerryion Knighton. He’s not the only one either, there’s 4 or 5 men now under 19.50.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=icQfSz7ukx4

    If I wanted tickets to one event at the Olympics in Paris next year, it would be the 200m final.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,577
    kle4 said:

    A bit after the event, but I just wanted to say that as someone much more Irish than Joe Biden, I am not Irish.

    Heck, my wife is probably more Irish than Biden, and she's Indian.

    As I understand it he is half Irish - his mother's ancestors all come from Ireland.
    Biden's visit to Ireland seems to have really discombobulated some English people. An Irish friend posted some really insane "cartoon" in the Times the other day, depicting Biden as a leprechaun! Just bonkers.
    The American way of describing nationality is a bit weird to us but it is how they do it. By American standards Biden is Irish American. Different places use language differently shocker.
    Yes. He identifies more with that side of his heritage whilst still very patriotic as an American. It's how they do it. Charming if anything.
    The ironic thing with the Oirishness thing is that if they follow the genealogy back a century or so, many of those who went to the states in the 18th century are actually of lowland Scottish heritage from the 16th-17th century...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Shadows in the evening are wider and softer, the penumbral brim to the umbral hat. But I know what you mean, it works because the phrase evokes, even without the meaning.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    Sandpit said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    Somewhat astonishingly, Bolt’s records, especialy in the 200m, are looking increasingly under threat. Bolt’s own Junior (U20) record at that distance, was beaten by nearly half a second last year, by an 18-year-old American called Kerryion Knighton. He’s not the only one either, there’s 4 or 5 men now under 19.50.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=icQfSz7ukx4

    If I wanted tickets to one event at the Olympics in Paris next year, it would be the 200m final.
    Partly (mostly?) super shoes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342
    edited April 2023

    Leon said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    That’s not true. I used to ride a lot around the world, on my travels, and still do occasionally. I’ve been on gallops where the horse accelerated without any encouragement, and I got the absolute sense the horse was enjoying the experience - the sheer thrill of running as fast as it could. Young animals experiment with their physical capabilities for fun - it makes total evolutionary sense - the knowledge might come in handy later

    Think of the weird determination of human children to climb trees. My daughters used to do it all the time, sometimes so exuberantly it freaked me out. For them it was play, and also excitingly risky. And also a useful skill to have if a predator comes along

    That's a horse running on its own. A horse running in a group is different. They're herd animals, and that's a herd response.
    Ah. By ‘alone’ I thought you meant without a rider. I still think you’re somewhat wrong. Why would a horse enjoy a gallop with a rider but not without one?

    As for multiple horses, a stampede is indeed a sign of herd panic, and presumably not much fun

    But I’ve seen pairs of young horses running across fields at full pelt - apparently for the fun of it. Maybe not quite a racehorse gallop - hard to say - but still fast. And with no signs of distress
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,624

    Leon said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    That’s not true. I used to ride a lot around the world, on my travels, and still do occasionally. I’ve been on gallops where the horse accelerated without any encouragement, and I got the absolute sense the horse was enjoying the experience - the sheer thrill of running as fast as it could. Young animals experiment with their physical capabilities for fun - it makes total evolutionary sense - the knowledge might come in handy later

    Think of the weird determination of human children to climb trees. My daughters used to do it all the time, sometimes so exuberantly it freaked me out. For them it was play, and also excitingly risky. And also a useful skill to have if a predator comes along

    That's a horse running on its own. A horse running in a group is different. They're herd animals, and that's a herd response.
    Horses have been bred so much that many 'instincts' that wild horses may have had might have disappeared or been modified generations ago.

    Incidentally, a while ago I listened to a podcast that claimed that if humans ceased to exist tomorrow, *all* horses would disappear in a few thousand years - they have been bred to be too close, and need, humans. Another claim was that even supposedly 'wild' species such as Przewalski's horses are not wild, and that no truly wild horse species still exists. They have all been domesticated to one extent or another.

    No Idea how true that is, but it's interesting - a bit like how dogs have changed massively through domestication.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586

    Sandpit said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    Somewhat astonishingly, Bolt’s records, especialy in the 200m, are looking increasingly under threat. Bolt’s own Junior (U20) record at that distance, was beaten by nearly half a second last year, by an 18-year-old American called Kerryion Knighton. He’s not the only one either, there’s 4 or 5 men now under 19.50.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=icQfSz7ukx4

    If I wanted tickets to one event at the Olympics in Paris next year, it would be the 200m final.
    Partly (mostly?) super shoes.
    Partly shoes, partly tracks, partly advances in sports science and training, and partly picking out kids really early and getting them into training programmes.

    I genuinely thought Bolt’s 100m and 200m records would be like Bob Beamon’s long jump, there for nearly three decades. Now, only 14 years later, I think the 200m could definitely go at the Olympics.

    The longest-standing, and most controversial, athletics record, the women’s 100m, might finally be consigned to the bin as well. Good riddance to that one.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    On the Labour poll leads - it seems obvious, to me, that vaguely competent government, some international agreements etc would be more popular than the ChaosOfTheWeek style.

    For @JosiasJessop - https://www.faa.gov/media/27236 - the FAA documentation associated with the launch license for Starship/Super Heavy. Confirms that the first three launches will be completely expendable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    Boardwalk said:

    Peyer Cardwell on talttv now saying we are being lied to and Ukraine is losing the war. And this from Tucker Carlson

    Tucker Carlson: "The second thing we learned from these slides is that despite direct U.S. involvement, Ukraine is losing the war. Seven Ukrainians are being killed for every Russian. Ukrainian air defenses have been utterly degraded. Ukraine is losing"

    https://twitter.com/Sinnaig/status/1646959620538220544?s=20

    Greetings to this week's Russian spammer.

    For reference in future weeks start it's best to start by replying to a few other comments instead of talking about Ukraine when we are talking about other things - the year's big (but pointless for betting) horse race and random bits of ancient history.
    We have lost interest in the SMO though. This time last year was all breathless analysis of truck tyres and furious googling of desant tactics. Now it's just sporadic and half-hearted C&P of Ukrainian psyop tweets.
    At the moment there isn't much happening. The Russians clearly can't advance and the Ukrainians haven't, maybe because they can't, maybe because they're waiting on something (or both). The war therefore is less interesting in a news sense.

    If the Ukrainians and the Russians are both stuck, we have a stalemate. We don't know where that would lead - whether a negotiated peace could be managed (seems unlikely, bluntly) that would allow the lifting of sanctions, or whether sanctions will persist and eventually Russia will suffer enough to offer meaningful concessions. Or, indeed, whether changes of government in the West might weaken support for Ukraine and allow Russia to consolidate their hold on the east bank.

    There isn't really a lot to say until we have more data.
    As much as anyone can tell (those tasked with gathering the data are prone to falling out of high windows), the Russian economy is going to have a disastrous 2023. The extent to which Russia can just "tough it out" will be tested to destruction.
    The other point is that we are waiting for the expected spring offensives. From both sides.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    PB

    Come for the Russian troll bots

    Stay for poetry corner...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,372

    Leon said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    That’s not true. I used to ride a lot around the world, on my travels, and still do occasionally. I’ve been on gallops where the horse accelerated without any encouragement, and I got the absolute sense the horse was enjoying the experience - the sheer thrill of running as fast as it could. Young animals experiment with their physical capabilities for fun - it makes total evolutionary sense - the knowledge might come in handy later

    Think of the weird determination of human children to climb trees. My daughters used to do it all the time, sometimes so exuberantly it freaked me out. For them it was play, and also excitingly risky. And also a useful skill to have if a predator comes along

    That's a horse running on its own. A horse running in a group is different. They're herd animals, and that's a herd response.
    Horses have been bred so much that many 'instincts' that wild horses may have had might have disappeared or been modified generations ago.

    Incidentally, a while ago I listened to a podcast that claimed that if humans ceased to exist tomorrow, *all* horses would disappear in a few thousand years - they have been bred to be too close, and need, humans. Another claim was that even supposedly 'wild' species such as Przewalski's horses are not wild, and that no truly wild horse species still exists. They have all been domesticated to one extent or another.

    No Idea how true that is, but it's interesting - a bit like how dogs have changed massively through domestication.
    In general, it’s not hard to tell when animals are happy or unhappy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,844
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Also vividly demonstrates why betting on the nags is a mugs game unless you have inside information from the stables.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219

    Anyway, I've only peppered a few quids on longshots so far, including Minella Trump and Back on the Lash, but the one serious contender I like is Noble Yeats, so I've had a tenner on him.

    Noble Yeats was a surprise winner last year. I like Longhouse Poet against him this time. He was over 30 lengths behind Noble Yeats last year but was 8lbs worse at the weights. This year Noble Yeats is 11lb worse off versus Longhouse Poet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586

    On the Labour poll leads - it seems obvious, to me, that vaguely competent government, some international agreements etc would be more popular than the ChaosOfTheWeek style.

    For @JosiasJessop - https://www.faa.gov/media/27236 - the FAA documentation associated with the launch license for Starship/Super Heavy. Confirms that the first three launches will be completely expendable.

    Really looking forward to the Starship launch. It’s the biggest and heaviest rocket ever to leave the Earth, more than 50% heavier than Saturn V.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/60/a3/3e60a30524e2bf3656e8e567ff88b3e8.jpg
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,342

    Leon said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    That’s not true. I used to ride a lot around the world, on my travels, and still do occasionally. I’ve been on gallops where the horse accelerated without any encouragement, and I got the absolute sense the horse was enjoying the experience - the sheer thrill of running as fast as it could. Young animals experiment with their physical capabilities for fun - it makes total evolutionary sense - the knowledge might come in handy later

    Think of the weird determination of human children to climb trees. My daughters used to do it all the time, sometimes so exuberantly it freaked me out. For them it was play, and also excitingly risky. And also a useful skill to have if a predator comes along

    That's a horse running on its own. A horse running in a group is different. They're herd animals, and that's a herd response.
    Horses have been bred so much that many 'instincts' that wild horses may have had might have disappeared or been modified generations ago.

    Incidentally, a while ago I listened to a podcast that claimed that if humans ceased to exist tomorrow, *all* horses would disappear in a few thousand years - they have been bred to be too close, and need, humans. Another claim was that even supposedly 'wild' species such as Przewalski's horses are not wild, and that no truly wild horse species still exists. They have all been domesticated to one extent or another.

    No Idea how true that is, but it's interesting - a bit like how dogs have changed massively through domestication.
    There’s an amazing herd of feral horses in southern Namibia. Believed to be remnants of escaped/released German cavalry horses from the short lived (and hideous) German colony there. They are impossibly romantic. The ghost horses of the Namib. I’ve seen them, emerging from the dunes and sandstorms

    They appear to be evolving into true wild horses - a new subspecies or even species - but they are still sometimes reliant on local farmers for water and food. If they crack that, they will be absolutely wild horses again

    Unfortunately they are also threatened by hyenas

    https://blog.rhinoafrica.com/2018/08/24/fascinating-feral-horses-namib-desert/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    edited April 2023
    Sandpit said:

    On the Labour poll leads - it seems obvious, to me, that vaguely competent government, some international agreements etc would be more popular than the ChaosOfTheWeek style.

    For @JosiasJessop - https://www.faa.gov/media/27236 - the FAA documentation associated with the launch license for Starship/Super Heavy. Confirms that the first three launches will be completely expendable.

    Really looking forward to the Starship launch. It’s the biggest and heaviest rocket ever to leave the Earth, more than 50% heavier than Saturn V.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/60/a3/3e60a30524e2bf3656e8e567ff88b3e8.jpg
    The aim, with full reusability is for 100-150 tons to LEO. Fully expendable might be 250 tons, upper stage only expended would be something like 180-200 tons

    Saturn V was designed for 118 tons to LEO, but performance growth got it to 140 tons.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Also vividly demonstrates why betting on the nags is a mugs game unless you have inside information from the stables.
    Doubly so for a race like the GN, which is basically a lottery at the best of times. I suppose it’s fun to be involved in a work or family sweepstake for a couple of coins, but definitely not for anyone hoping to need a wheelbarrow for their winnings.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    edited April 2023
    Deleted
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,624

    On the Labour poll leads - it seems obvious, to me, that vaguely competent government, some international agreements etc would be more popular than the ChaosOfTheWeek style.

    For @JosiasJessop - https://www.faa.gov/media/27236 - the FAA documentation associated with the launch license for Starship/Super Heavy. Confirms that the first three launches will be completely expendable.

    Yeah, that's unsurprising. That heat shield looks mighty dodgy though.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    edited April 2023
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Also vividly demonstrates why betting on the nags is a mugs game unless you have inside information from the stables.
    Yep. I used to be in a syndicate (via Sporting Index) and a few of us used to watch the horses before the race being paraded by the stable hand - we'd shout ""this one the winner then?" or similar. Surprising the information you can get that way - sometimes ruling out the horse they are parading.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Sandpit said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    Somewhat astonishingly, Bolt’s records, especialy in the 200m, are looking increasingly under threat. Bolt’s own Junior (U20) record at that distance, was beaten by nearly half a second last year, by an 18-year-old American called Kerryion Knighton. He’s not the only one either, there’s 4 or 5 men now under 19.50.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=icQfSz7ukx4

    If I wanted tickets to one event at the Olympics in Paris next year, it would be the 200m final.
    Partly (mostly?) super shoes.
    And PEDs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,624
    Sandpit said:

    On the Labour poll leads - it seems obvious, to me, that vaguely competent government, some international agreements etc would be more popular than the ChaosOfTheWeek style.

    For @JosiasJessop - https://www.faa.gov/media/27236 - the FAA documentation associated with the launch license for Starship/Super Heavy. Confirms that the first three launches will be completely expendable.

    Really looking forward to the Starship launch. It’s the biggest and heaviest rocket ever to leave the Earth, more than 50% heavier than Saturn V.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/60/a3/3e60a30524e2bf3656e8e567ff88b3e8.jpg
    Yet unlike Saturn V, it cannot get man to the moon and back in one launch. ;)

    (Yes, I know that's because SS has not been optimised for that particular mission.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,624
    Incidentally, the following tweet made me laugh this morning.

    https://twitter.com/RossMcCaff/status/1646882087142674432
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,844
    Watkins playing like a god today and the Villa are making a good Newcastle side look distinctly ordinary. Some of the defending though...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,844
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Also vividly demonstrates why betting on the nags is a mugs game unless you have inside information from the stables.
    Yep. I used to be in a syndicate (via Sporting Index) and a few of us used to watch the horses before the race being paraded by the stable hand - we'd shout ""this one the winner then?" or similar. Surprising the information you can get that way - sometimes ruling out the horse they are parading.
    If anyone did that with shares they would be prosecuted.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,751

    Pro_Rata said:

    The "Sunak to stay on after an honourably narrow election defeat" option, though not the trend these days, would be an option the Tory party and Sunak ought to think about very seriously.

    If the Tories win more seats than Labour, but are forced out of government because Labour are able to win more support from other parties, then I think it would make sense for Sunak to remain as leader. If they change leader then they would lose some of the moral force behind the argument that they won the election and should be the government.
    Sunak is young and not long in office. So long as it isnt a landslide for Labour then he's surely well-placed to continue as leader if he has the appetite for it. Blocking the return of Boris would also be an incentive for him and his supporters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,416
    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Also vividly demonstrates why betting on the nags is a mugs game unless you have inside information from the stables.
    Yep. I used to be in a syndicate (via Sporting Index) and a few of us used to watch the horses before the race being paraded by the stable hand - we'd shout ""this one the winner then?" or similar. Surprising the information you can get that way - sometimes ruling out the horse they are parading.
    If anyone did that with shares they would be prosecuted.
    Unlikely they would. I mean, you feel an awful prat trying to walk shares around a parade ring.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Also vividly demonstrates why betting on the nags is a mugs game unless you have inside information from the stables.
    Yep. I used to be in a syndicate (via Sporting Index) and a few of us used to watch the horses before the race being paraded by the stable hand - we'd shout ""this one the winner then?" or similar. Surprising the information you can get that way - sometimes ruling out the horse they are parading.
    If anyone did that with shares they would be prosecuted.
    Poor comparison IMO. The stable lad may say something like "Bit worried about Charlie's horse" or some such. So I'd have a few quid on Charlie's horse.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303

    Sandpit said:

    On the Labour poll leads - it seems obvious, to me, that vaguely competent government, some international agreements etc would be more popular than the ChaosOfTheWeek style.

    For @JosiasJessop - https://www.faa.gov/media/27236 - the FAA documentation associated with the launch license for Starship/Super Heavy. Confirms that the first three launches will be completely expendable.

    Really looking forward to the Starship launch. It’s the biggest and heaviest rocket ever to leave the Earth, more than 50% heavier than Saturn V.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/60/a3/3e60a30524e2bf3656e8e567ff88b3e8.jpg
    Yet unlike Saturn V, it cannot get man to the moon and back in one launch. ;)

    (Yes, I know that's because SS has not been optimised for that particular mission.)
    Orbital refuelling is required to get anywhere.

    May Senator Shelby suffer a plague of boils......
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,303
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    Somewhat astonishingly, Bolt’s records, especialy in the 200m, are looking increasingly under threat. Bolt’s own Junior (U20) record at that distance, was beaten by nearly half a second last year, by an 18-year-old American called Kerryion Knighton. He’s not the only one either, there’s 4 or 5 men now under 19.50.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=icQfSz7ukx4

    If I wanted tickets to one event at the Olympics in Paris next year, it would be the 200m final.
    Partly (mostly?) super shoes.
    And PEDs.
    How many of the runners breaking these records have braces on their teeth?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,503
    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    There is a long article SFAIK not yet written on Larkin's use of the word 'shadow' as noun and verb, like:

    Let it stay hidden there like strength, below

    Sale-bills and swindling; something people do,

    Not noticing how time’s rolling smithy-smoke

    Shadows much greater gestures;

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,643
    edited April 2023
    Glue watch alert.

    My Grand National bets.

    Minella Trump, Gabbys Cross, and Cape Gentleman.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,503
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.


    Do memories plague their ears like flies?
    They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
    Summer by summer all stole away,
    The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
    All but the unmolesting meadows.
    Almanacked, their names live; they

    Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
    Or gallop for what must be joy,
    And not a fieldglass sees them home,
    Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
    Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
    With bridles in the evening come.


    Larkin of course.
    Larkin is so strangely brilliant

    ‘Dusk brims the shadows’ doesn’t actually make that much sense, but it is so powerfully evocative of a warm rural twilight - and of the slow contented end of life
    Stunning enjambment between the two stanzas as well. Suggests the speed of the race, and then the line literally comes to a standstill. This is Larkin at his very best.
    One of THE great English poets, to my mind. Up there with Keats and Byron and Milton
    Yes. Astonishing. The last of of tradition of great poetry for the ordinary reader (not academics) about actual real stuff, written with scrupulous care and genius - even more than Keats is. Clare, Hardy, Edward Thomas, Betjeman (despite weaknesses) and Larkin. And the death of Larkin ended a tradition as surely as the death of Shostakovich.

    Larkin renders so many poets unreadable for their imprecision, lack of anything to say and inattention to form.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    More information regarding that awful cyclist accident that generated a lot of chatter on here:

    https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/23416133.auriol-grey-family-say-disabled-pedestrian-shouldnt-jail/

    "A Change.org petition also suggests that Grey was "excessively" jailed and that, because of her cerebral palsy, partial blindness and the fact she was a pedestrian on a footpath, "a suspended sentence would be more appropriate". It adds: "I can’t see any signs nor are there markings on the footpath stating it’s shared."
    Disability Rights UK, meanwhile, called the sentence "extremely harsh." "
  • TresTres Posts: 2,701
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    On race horses enjoying racing:
    I once had a conversation with a biologist after a book signing which got on to the subject of athletes, and I asked him why humans have massively increased their running records over the past century but horses have managed only minuscule improvements.
    As he pointed out, horses have evolved running at speed over millions of years, whereas we haven't. He went on to say that for horses, running is about escaping predators, so when horses run together - for example, in a horse race - those millions of years of evolution are telling each horse not to be last, or they'll get eaten. And, in his words, every physiological thing that jockeys and trainers say is a sign a horse enjoys it, is actually a sign of stress. They're basically terrified.
    The only time a horse enjoys running is alone, at not much more than a canter.

    Would the same not apply to Usain Bolt too then?
    Somewhat astonishingly, Bolt’s records, especialy in the 200m, are looking increasingly under threat. Bolt’s own Junior (U20) record at that distance, was beaten by nearly half a second last year, by an 18-year-old American called Kerryion Knighton. He’s not the only one either, there’s 4 or 5 men now under 19.50.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=icQfSz7ukx4

    If I wanted tickets to one event at the Olympics in Paris next year, it would be the 200m final.
    Partly (mostly?) super shoes.
    Partly shoes, partly tracks, partly advances in sports science and training, and partly picking out kids really early and getting them into training programmes.

    I genuinely thought Bolt’s 100m and 200m records would be like Bob Beamon’s long jump, there for nearly three decades. Now, only 14 years later, I think the 200m could definitely go at the Olympics.

    The longest-standing, and most controversial, athletics record, the women’s 100m, might finally be consigned to the bin as well. Good riddance to that one.
    Isn't this because they all wearing go faster shoes these days?
This discussion has been closed.